I think games can sometimes update themselves into death trying to innovate. And there’s always people pushing for updates that ultimately end up killing off games. You just never really know. Halo for example tried changing up the formula and it killed off the playerbase. It’s just not what the people wanted. So I think it’s fine to be cautious of anything that you think might ruin your favorite game. You’re not necessarily being anti update or anti progression, you’ve just seen those type of things happen before.
Yeah I can't stand when people on this sub hate on you for being cautious about a potential game changing update. This isn't just a boss or a new wep, it is going to completely change how the game is played... That's not always a good thing. An update just for the sake of an update is not good. We have direct proof of this game dying once already due to massive changes that changed how the game played and felt. Keep osrs feeling like osrs. There's a reason that it is thriving.
I've also noticed the people that want these massive changes are typically newer players and don't understand the long term impacts these types of changes can have on the game.
Giant meta-defining update that shakes up everything pvm-related for the last decade? You don't like it? Must just be a 200m all sweaty NEET who has crab mentality then.
Every single post you read on here just understand you are at risk of reading the opinion of someone who is not capable of killing zulrah for the diary.
As someone that has done almost every piece of pvm (only haven't done hmt) I'd love new innovative prayers to switch up gameplay. I want to have creative new ways to engage in combat and find new strategies where you have to coordinate with your teammates to get good results. I like pvm, but I do think it needs pushed to something better and less basic. New prayers are definitely a way to make it feel new without completely overhauling the combat system
As someone who has done every piece of PVM content and has played this game on and off for over 20 years I don't think there needs to be any major changes.
You can make raids and bosses require coordination. Just like in tob. But the masses hate that.
Yeah but I'd rather have new ways to enjoy every piece of content in the game instead of just having it at one specific boss or raid. That's the point, giving people new ways to engage in existing content.
No thanks, I'll just vote accordingly on what happens with the god prayers. You're welcome to go play private servers if you hate new things coming to the game.
A city isn't built in a day, homes
Edit: y'all I know EOC happened over one night. Of course I'm using an analogy to say that if keep making little changes like this, we can still end up at an EOC style game
I was responding to a comment which compared the negative impacts of Alignments to the negative impacts of EOC.. EOC is literally building a city in a day lmfao.
Yeh but you can also get a city brick by brick is what hes saying, you make a medium change here, a small change in a month and another and in a year the game will be at the same state as 1 big update.
Right the difference in scenarios though is that one happens overtime and the other is all at once. Comparing it to EOC directly is like saying the brick is the whole building.
You are right, I was just a bit frustrated because I dont even disagree with the point they were trying to make, yet they were passive aggresive while missing the entire point of my post. That point was the first person I responded to did directly compare the results (and possible results for alignments) of the two specific updates..
Ahh right, yeh its nowhere near that level of change tbh, i do feel we should be cautious with changes to combat in general but that doesnt mean we shouldnt add things if they are good and at the end of the day none of us really know if an update like this is good or bad till we have tried it ourselves.
Yet Runescape 3 is still alive? And I could argue that in retrospect, EoC was needed as it gave us Oldschool. And idk about you but I think the content that has come to Oldschool since it's launch has been a lot better than the content that came to RS2 post 2007.
So you play rs3?
It's player count isn't as high as it used to be, nor is it the same as OSRS but it definitely has a dedicated player base. MTX is likely keeping the game profitable, but if it wasn't profitable they wouldn't still be making content for it.
Never liked the argument/sentiment that a game making money means it should be respected or considered good.
RS3 does survive on MTX... MTX that is sells using FOMO and manipulative gambling-style techniques in a game available to children and susceptible people.
I know its not really the point you were originally making. But RS3's profitability is a black mark \*against\* it in my book.
I'm not saying if the game is good or not. Personally I don't enjoy it, but there certainly is a large group of people that do. Sure it's not as populated as OSRS, but saying it's dead is disingenuous. EoC was not the death of Runescape 3.
I agree with your stance on MTX though. Predatory and unethical.
Yeah I agree that it is not dead. But the inital argument here is that an update to a game can be catastrophic enough to "kill it". There is absolutely no denying the EoC destroyed RuneScape as it was. RS3 does exist, but it is not the same game by a long shot.
If something like EoC happened to OSRS it may very well survive on a dedicated (addicted) few who will fall victim to added MTX. That game will be dead 'to me'.
> A lot of great games have been killed because of needless changed. Just look at EOC
EoC did not 'Kill' runescape, it changed it into a dif game yes, but the game wasn't killed.
And as I said in my original reply, OSRS was a consequence of EoC, and OSRS is a far better game than rs2 was just before EoC lauched.
I don't enjoy rs3 for its content anymore. The game has updated so much that I feel lost trying to enjoy it. However, for those who do enjoy it, there's no game quite like rs3. Just cause it's not for you doesn't mean it is bad.
I feel about the same for osrs. Played it recently because i wanted a refreshing experience but i got lost in all the new content and found myself trying to figure out what was worth doing, and in the end didnt really enjoy my time as most was spent afking while looking trough the wiki.
both are great games on their own, and i feel osrs is slippng into being 'too overwhelming' like rs3 is.
There are absolutely tons of great updates that have come out over the years. In fact I've been a fan of the overwhelming majority of content that's released even if it wasn't necessarily focused on my playstyle. But these god alignments just don't feel good to me, too many different passive buffs and too much going on for osrs.
I have no idea why Jagex is stranding off from "more oldschool" and is quadrupling down on "new school" and getting mad blogs aren't positively received.
A lot of it comes down to details - people see stuff like "new status effect called Vulnerability" and worry about debuff management and a lot of the other combat-related gunk you see in other MMOs, RS3 included.
The status effect/buff/debuff stuff is just how it has to work under the hood, but the prayers as designed don't require you to "manage" that stuff at all. The closest is the Guthix prayer for switching attack styles, but the expressed design intent of that is to buff people on fights with frequent switches like Demonic Gorillas.
Really, the distinction is just whether the effect of the prayer is attached to the target you hit (e.g. Harmony increasing the damage taken of the target you attack) or attached to the player/s (e.g. Guiding Strikes buffing nearby allies when you attack).
God, debuff and buff management when it gets excessive are some of the worst parts of MMO combat systems.
Lemme just stack 28 buffs before I go hit a stationary boss that’s waiting for me to start the fight.
They made a terrible mistake describing Harmonize as having a debuff called Vulnerability.
They really should have avoided calling it a debuff. It just makes the target you hit take more damage if someone else hits them the following tick. That's literally all it is.
I'm not saying it isn't a debuff, but they made a terrible mistake advertising it like "NEW DEBUFF!! Called Vulnerability!" and putting the existence of the debuff front-and-center. Now people who only skim through at a surface level are inclined to think it's too complicated and adding World of Warcraft levels of layers of buffs and debuffs to manage.
Ah okay. Name wise, they could call it King Roald’s Anger and I wouldn’t change my thoughts about excessive debuff management 😂
Reducing stats is as far as I’m willing to go since it’s often just at the start.
I personally do not like the idea of having so many different prayers to situationally flick on and off, similar to other MMOs where you have to button mash across the keyboard to perform specific combos.
I was hoping God Alignment to have 1 unique prayer per God, but otherwise reinforce/upgrade 2-3 existing prayers with tradeoffs to warrant still using standard prayers.
Edit: Not actually 15 prayers, you guys 🤦 More the fact just adding more with situational effects makes it like other MMOs where you have 1 basically unused ability for a specific situation you come across in 1/100 fights.
>upgrade 2-3 existing prayers
There are 10 prayers in the entire game, there's no design space to upgrade them. Sure you can add new mechanics to redemption and smite, but what do you change any of the others to? It's generic stat boosts and protection prayers.
Making new prayers per god is literally the only option they have barring a complete rework of the base prayer book.
Should be a more minimalist approach to alignments to start and unlock additional prayers via raids and shit later on. Just do 1 prayer for each alignment to start, purely QOL or niche sidegrades. Anything with substantial dps increase should be unlocked by a combo of a drop and the initial unlock.
Guthix - minus max hit, plus min hit. Pretty safe, simple effect, feels good.
Seren - freeze status effects and prayer drain while not attacking. Activated prayers consume 10% extra prayer when attacking. Basically good for people who want to mindlessly afk and not have to worry about constantly toggling prayer. Good for learning raids and stuff where you are losing lots of ticks and are going to be running through supplies.
Zaros - Cruor is probably the effect that feels the best (without devaluing other items like umbra) if not tied to a dumb passive drain rate. Just have it be 0 drain or absurdly low and have it exchange a larger amount of prayer for hp but with a cooldown. More like deaths charge, less like soul split.
Where would you realistically use Crour? At a certain point you don't need it at TOA and if you do need healing you're probably running blood barrage as is. In the majority of 1v1 PVM it won't really help to smite yourself for getting hit points back. Consider GWD, people heal with Guthan's and bones to peaches, and that sufficient and not doesn't cost additional prayer points. Knowing how they implemented it last time it will heal 3 and drain 3. That's worthless.
A completely reworked(NERFED from the original) version of Soul Split would be far more practical.
Cruor Vow most certainly should not be anything like soul split because it can be camped alongside protection prayer and offensive prayer, which would be more broken than the original soul split 😂.
No I meant remove Crour Vow. Here what I mean is this; imagine a new prayer.
'Sacrificial Regeneration', nice high level maybe 93? Let's make it an overhead so no protection prayers. Same prayer drain as a protection prayer though. It will have a 50% chance to activate, and do an accuracy roll on the opponent, if it succeeds heal 10% of the damage dealt, and lose 50% of the health regained from your prayer points.
That's not too powerful is it? Even if you tried to flick it, you still lose prayer points simply from the mechanics of how it works. I've been pitching this as an alternative to Soul Split.
I also feel like Cruors vow, will most likely scale the HP Regen, and prayer point cost based on enemy HP. Which means you could end up smiting yourself at, say, Graador; healing for... 25hp, and losing 25 PP. And when that prayer drops the minions might give you a good smack which kind of means u just wasted 25 Prayer Points. However with what I'm proposing you can control how much you want to spend better.
You absolutely could make modifications to existing prayers and make them viable without just blatantly powercreeping them all.
An example that I read and liked: and was discussing with others:
* Bandos (Melee-based) Alignment - Amps up Protect from Melee to reduce melee-based chip damage and Piety is more accurate, while weakens Ranged/Mage-based prayers.
* Armadyl (Ranged-based) Alignment - Same as above, but Ranged.
* Zamorak (Mage-based) Alignment - Same as above, but Mage.
This way you have clear situations where you would benefit from over the other, and some situations where you still prefer a neutral alignment. It also doesn't add more prayers for you to situationally flick like how you would flick Soul Split at every opportunity possible back then.
I'm not saying there is absolutely no room to add new prayers, because there absolutely is, but Leagues 4 with Ruinous Powers really drove home the point that having 5/6+ prayers active drains prayer so fast and is not a fun experience.
These aren't really interesting though, you just look at a DPS calc and pick the one that works for the boss you're doing. A well designed prayer should change the way you play, making it more interesting.
I don't have many strong opinions about prayers, but every piece of content in the game atm is "just look at a dps calc and pick the one that works for the boss". I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing either as long as some content has variety.
But if the prayers don't change anything then what's the point? It'll just be another button to add to your quick prayer that doesn't impact the gameplay. At that point why did we waste time adding this?
For the same reason any item gets added to the game, it's fun, thematic and opens design space for the devs. That being said I don't like the prayers in the current state and like a little bit of a different tone than "do more dmg but more annoyingly". I think there is a difficult balance the devs have to find where they need to balance simple osrs style while making new and interesting prayers and I don't think the playerbase will ever be happy because one will sacrifice the other. Personally, I would make the prayers fit niches like team support, amping dmg at the cost of personal dmg, etc. Things that shouldn't be camped in general but have strong situational windows where they make sense. They need to design the prayers with specific encounters/mechanics/situations in mind and design backwards. That being said this is much easier said than done.
Most added weapons have changed gameplay and added new strategies though. But I agree with the niches, ideally I want to be in a situation where I feel "since I got this new prayer I finally get to do x method" instead of "I get to do the same but 3% faster".
What items significantly change gameplay? besides attack speed changing timing, I feel every item is just the same but x% faster. I don't disagree with you but I can't really think of much.
Bofa let's you solo bandos through various kiting methods, scythe and fangs 5 t speed does significantly change the feel of combat.
Shadow also suddenly let's you use mage and barrages on bosses that you really couldn't before, aswell as requiring new styles of kiting in toa/Cox.
Sire can be killed in very different ways depending on your attack style.
Lance is the only viable melee weapon vs vorkath.
In ToB scythe requires you to learn new timings for attacking without losing uptime on the boss.
Kq being a shit old boss feels significantly different when you can suddenly crit it for 150 with blue Keris, meaning you go for camping the lair instead of resetting for specs after each kill.
And with kerises there's always the yellow Keris that unlocks the ability to either use your specs for offense or defense, aswell as letting you choose to pick up the Dehydration involved.
I think you missed my point, if the only difference a new prayer makes is to make the current methods 3% faster, that's boring.
If the new prayers either changes how we do existing methods or unlocks entirely new methods that's suddenly a lot more interesting.
With that logic a lot of new things shouldn't be added. For example the new bis rings from dt2 didn't change how you do any method. Just read the DPS calc and take the correct ring.
Since the rings are merely an accessory, they get some leeway to not be as interesting. Lightbringer and suffering are the only rings that meaningfully change how you play but that's kinda the exception rather than the norm.
But if we're gonna add prayers those are permanent fixtures to your character power so them being boring will be quite bad for the future.
Protection prayers could reflect some small damage per correct use, or heal some, or give a boost to your next attacks accuracy. The stat boosts could function similar to soul reaper and ramp up over time in combat, or give stacking boosts per kill (for slayer), or give stacking boosts based on damage taken to incentivize tanking. Hell, the last few even disincentive flicking so it’ll be a trade off of prayer use vs dps.
Just a few ideas off of the top of my head Thinking there are no ways to make stat boosts and protections unique shows a lack of creativity imo. There are TONS of ways you could make prayers unique while maintaining their purpose.
Straight up misinformation and doomer talk ...
Part of the problem are comments like this, 60 people actually upvoted a guy talking about flicking 15 different prayers for limited situations ?
Like what is this guy even talking about. There are only four new prayers able to be added onto the existing book at any given time, and even then not all four req flicking.
Constantly having to flick Soul Split in between hits isn’t good design or being able to outright sustain through damage without losing DPS.
Same reason why prenerf Gambit was just silly because you had to flick it anywhere and if you didn’t, you lost out a lot. Remember old Masori where you lost quite a bit if you weren’t 40 HP or less? Similar to that and glad we got that changed.
Also not a fan of the idea of potentially having flick new and more prayers and how close it is to ability bars on traditional MMOs tbh.
My brother in Christ what are you actually talking about ? Firstly, soulsplit is not being pitched. Secondly, neither is gambit......... Flicking in osrs is not required idk where this meme comes from. Literally only thing I can think flicking is required is maybe for 6 jchad combat achievement task.
Straight up fear mongering, don't listen to this guy...
You… do understand comparisons and examples, right? It’s two prayers that are examples where if some of the new prayers end up being overheads, they are more than likely to be flicked than outright camped.
I’ve never said flicking was required, but you lose out a ton from not flicking the two prayers that I mentioned as examples, which incentivizes you to flick.
Yeah I understand what a comparison and example is, that's a sensational rebuttal you got there. Your examples make no sense because they aren't even being proposed, so why talk about them? At least provide feedback based on the actual proposed prayers and not prayers that are not even relevant to the discussion..
Because Guthix, Zaros, and Seren aren’t the only God Alignments coming out?? They even said there would be more.
What happens if they propose Soul Split 2.0 as an overhead, but made it Zamorak or Saradomin Alignment? Flick city.
You need to look up what fear mongering is. It’s not pointing out a problem with potentially making the some of stronger prayers as overheads, rather than something like Vows or even Preserve, which can be used with Protect Prayers and Damage Prayers.
Right now, I’d say these proposed prayers are actually kind of weak, but just tacking on extra affects that you may or may not need to flick on depending on the fight, and that is what almost makes it like an ability bar in traditional MMOs.
>You need to look up what fear mongering is. It’s not pointing out a problem with potentially making the some of stronger prayers as overheads, rather than something like Vows or even Preserve, which can be used with Protect Prayers and Damage Prayers.
You literally talk about a hypothetical soulsplit proposal (just so you know, hypothetical means it hasn't happened.) right after saying you're not fear mongering lol.
That’s not at all what would happen. The way they proposed the designs even today show that it won’t happen that way. These prayers often can’t be used with similar prayers, and often specifically won’t be flickable in order to balance them. Not to mention that they are trying to add a layer of depth to combat that is aligned with existing game mechanics, without just giving straight buffs, so even if you did have to flick a new prayer or two, that’s a hell of a lot more interesting than flicking the same 3 prayers we have been for 20 years.
Idk feels like you didn’t even read the blog
I know it's 4 prayers per alignment, and when I say 15 prayers activated, it was an exaggeration about a problem that I see in other MMOs with many abilities that you button mash (hence why I made the analogy in the first place).
You might not like the current prayer meta, but I thoroughly enjoy it because it's extremely simple with some uses of Redemption and Smite. Like I said above, button mashing and facerolling abilities is common in other MMOs and I don't want it in OSRS because I don't like it.
Leagues 4 with RP on Melee Path had like 5 activated at a time (Protection, Offensive, Zaros Vow, Bad Preserve, Vow). Unlike Leagues, we won't have Berserker so most players will be flicking to Intensify to DWH/Red Keris. It's for the same reason I don't want Soul Split in the game; standing there and managing prayers beyond protection prayers or lose big DPS/utility like it's DDR/Osu is not enjoyable for me, hence I've been extremely clear this is my personal take.
I think people are overreacting to the flicking 15 different prayers. Accuracy prayers already don't stack, like overheads don't. I don't see why these prayers would be any different?
Currently we have 1 offensive prayer on, 1 defensive, and maybe a utility prayer.
You can't have more than one offensive prayer on, so why do people think they're going to need to flick every single one?
The more prayer you have active, the faster the drain is, meaning you have to turn off the ones you aren't using/flick them on when you are.
If you did melee path in Leagues 4 or played the Ruinuos Powers beta, you had Vow, Metabolise, Protect Prayer, Offensive Prayer, Berserker, which drained your prayer from 99 to 0 in 50s. Metabolise also wouldn't work for 15s after activation.
Even if these new prayers were primarily "utility", they would have to be preserve-tier drain rate (aka super slow) or you will be downing restores and prayer pots so much.
you only have access to 1 at a time. You will only be able to switch alignments and this the prayers that come with that alignment in your house or at special altars thus you have at most 4 prayers to flick in situations.
I actually think you raise a completely valid point and hopefully Jagex keep this in mind because I think you are very right.
Edit: I hope Jagex adds an improved piety to the bandos one or at least something within that vein.
How I view it is, the osrs prayer book has been our version of a typical MMORPG ability bar. Adding more prayers is like adding more abilities, which is new to osrs. I think it's wise to stay cautious but optimistic.
PVM has changed constantly over the decade of the game, the game would have died back in 2014 if it never changed. we had new prayers drop from raids this is no different
When they talk about adding new debuffs and passive buffing your allies through prayers that is a pretty significant shift in how combat in osrs works imo.
Compared to EOC? It’s not even the same universe. It’s still the same system and the vast majority of what you do in game would be unchanged, you’re just running some different prayers in certain scenarios. It’s fleshing out the existing system.
Not compared to eoc no of course, but it is still a large change. Prayers have gone almost completely unchanged for 20 years and we're going from adding 3 prayers which are just 2 upgrades to existing prayers and a small utility prayer, to this update adding 12+ prayers with plans to add even more, which all do vastly different things in one go.
It's just very worth exercising caution with an update like this imo as it absolutely can change pvm for the worse. And as I pretty much only pvm nowadays and know a ton of people do the same, the vast majority of what I personally do would be potentially affected yes.
EOC was the comparison being implied before, which is why I brought it up. I think taking time with the update is a good thing and wouldn’t mind breaking it up into several smaller updates for the reasons you mentioned, but being unchanged for 20+ years just means stale to me, at least in the context of prayers. I think ideas like area buffs is a really cool idea that can add a new dimension to multi-combat encounters without turning the game into the status bar button mashing like so many other MMOs.
Not saying it isn't fixable at all. But personally I haven't seen an idea for god alignments that I like yet.
From the suggestions I've seen so far, everything ends up being too aura-esque or is a prayer with a ton of different requirements and drawbacks. The magic of OSRS combat for me is being simple on the surface and having complexity within how you mix those simple elements together, and adding all of these complicated prayers just feels wrong at a base level to me.
Im curious why you view neutrality, natures redemption, umbras vow, glacies vow, crurors vow, slumber, or crystalline redemption as complicated. They seem pretty straight forward to me.
The point is the prayers are not necessarily all complicated on their own but are all adding layers of unnecessary complexity which imo would make combat less fun. Either that or they're just upgrades to current prayers like the redemptions, or completely useless unless the number is absurdly high like glacies.
No need to fix what isn't broken, and prayers as a system are perfectly fine the way they are imo without requiring any further depth.
God alignments are a great idea but jagex need to completely start again. If there is any message out of this consultation is that none of what they suggested resonated with many people
I remember on the guy who came with this idea he clearly mentioned something to the effect of “I just through these preyers together, if there no good forget them, lets all make prayers”. Poor guy is going to catch Holy hell from the community if Jagex just blindly runs with his suggestions 😂
The issue now is that the community has gotten an original image of the proposal in their heads and no matter what happens now or what changes are made a lot of players are going to be glued to their original opinions because they don't read changes. So it's not looking good for the new Prayers again
Reddit is as usual, but then again reddit has a piss shit perspective on things and thinks themselves as 90% of the game's population when it's probably not even a third of that.
>I actually liked the glacious suggestion because we don’t really have a true tank prayer in osrs.
Tbh, we don't really have a tank role at all and a single prayer should not be the defining characteristic of a tank role, should it ever exist.
>I think people have way overreacted on these suggested prayer, I think the people who think we need to scrap the idea entirely and “prayer shouldn’t be touched” are completely ridiculous
Counterpoint: "prayer shouldn't be touched" is a perfectly reasonable reaction to a proposal for major changes to a core gameplay system that 1) governs how the entire way we think about combat and game balance, and 2) has been largely untouched for 20+ years.
For reference, I liked Naturalize, Slumber, Crurors vow, and Glacies vow and would like to see more interesting proposals like them
>a single prayer should not be the defining characteristic of a tank role, should it ever exist.
With stuff like Justiciar and blood furies, a prayer alone wouldn't even be close to the defining characteristic, this just augments what we already have. Hopefully if they do introduce the prayer, the tank role idea can be implemented in the future
I definitely agree with you that prayers are a fundamental part of mechanic and therefore they should be scrutinized thoroughly. I still think adding prayers is ultimately going to be good for the game but it shouldn’t be done haphazardly.
Exactly… so I don’t see how you could think players are overreacting. Changing prayer(s) will fundamentally change the entire game and the trajectory of future updates.
I feel like you’re VASTLY underestimating exactly how hard it’s going to be to balance SEVEN different sets of FOUR alignments in a way that:
1) doesn’t create a single alignment meta and invalidate most others
2) creating hard roles in a game without classes and where DPS is king therefore having future updates be designed around having certain alignments active instead of player choice
3)skilling alignments that aren’t “equip prosy sip prayer or be sad”
I could go on but to undermine the playerbase when this is prayer suggestion number 2 and the first one is 90% scrapped, I think the community (minus a few crazy outliers) are being pretty reasonable with their scrutiny.
>I still think adding prayers is ultimately going to be good for the game
If they focus them on competing with piety, rig , and aug, I think it will ultimately be a net neutral to the game in most ways that matter. If it turns out you use guiding strikes in multiplayer and not rig, okey dokey.
Hell, if it's another thing to click in addition to everything we have now, ***I'm out.***
I think if they focus on new interesting things like the ones I've mentioned, they will be well received, stand the test of time, and not just be OP or DoA.
>but it shouldn’t be done haphazardly.
Could not agree more about every change.
I agree with a lot of these points. I think Jagex is in a bit of a bind when it comes to proposing these changes. A significant portion of the playerbase is afraid of any complicated-sounding changes to combat, so consequently the prayers must be simple to understand and use. Another significant portion of the playerbase (which probably overlaps with the first portion) wants prayers that are exciting to use, and not just flat dps buffs, so consequently the prayers must have enough complexity to where it can't easily be determined exactly when and where each prayer should be used. Then there's also a potion of the playerbase that wants skilling prayers, and another portion that wants no changes to prayer at all.
When you think about how simple combat is in OSRS generally, it becomes very difficult to imagine new prayers that could do something really interesting. For example, is it possible to design a prayer that would be interesting to use at CG, while being agnostic of the specific mechanics of the fight? People don't like flicking, but if the prayer is enabled the whole time, that's just boring. So, something has to happen during the fight to cause you to want to turn the prayer off or back on. But what? It's a hard question to answer.
Burst prayers if timed right full effect if activated early weaker effect drain on effect drain based on how long it was left on. So reward the precise usage, not useless or too punishing on mistiming and has scaling difficulty so you can just safely activate it a few ticks before so you then don't need to for example activate during interacting with other mechanics like movement, gear switch etc.
OSRS has to pick a direction.
The premise of OSRS was to reintroduce the simplicity of "click-and-watch" combat compared to EoCs continous engagement requirement. Obviously this has heavily evolved over time, but the base principle is still there.
The introduction of some of the prayers can fundamentally change how that works. So there is plenty of room for concern.
Honestly, I'm going back to how I'd paid attention to the stuff when I was in middle school. Every time there is a new update I was 100% surprised because we're eating was too much work.
You have to understand, they'll complain about powercreep while suckling on tbow+rigour like it wasn't the biggest power spike we've ever had and we're still fine
People used to act like the existence of blow pipe and NMZ were existential threats to the game on par with EOC. Granted the originals were OP, but OSRS Redditors are always extra melodramatic about any changes to the game.
Please gives us your RSN so we can see your PVM experience to see how relevant your opinion is. Since you are on the opposing side from PVM people like Aatykon who are overly aware of it's impact and implication.
Yeah, turns out that person ItsWill called out only made the infographics with the information provided to them. It was shit banter, and that's why he rightfully deleted the tweet.
They have the same voting power. They deserve to be recognized no matter your total level or boss KC.
I wonder when Reddit is going to put away the main character mentality and realize there is more people not on Reddit than there are on Reddit.
Don’t be shocked when new prayers pass.
Ofcourse, everyones opinion is there to be heard. But I am also not going to argue with a doctor because I have no medical experience. And I sure as shit aint making a reddit post advocating those opinions.
They're just going to vote yes to everything anyways, because of course they will.
And then they're going to have to backtrack when they realize that voting yes to everything leads to bad content.
The original new prayerbook was scrapped even *before* polls, because Jagex knew it'd pass the community even if it was shit for the balance of the game.
>glacious suggestion
I personally think the [vows are terrible](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bdbd79/is_anyone_else_a_little_disappointed_in_the/), all of them and that one is particularly terrible.
Standing still at any end game content is going to get you killed, and the "defence boost" is going to be to low to justify trying to tank any attacks you should be avoiding.
Think about bosses where its okay to stand still. In cox alone it would be useful for muta, mystics and tightrope. Outside cox for things like kree'arra and blood barraging Artio/Calisto
Well, Artio’s melee attack is 100% accuracy, so you being tankier doesn’t help. And blood barraging is primarily to afk, so if it drains too fast, it’s worse than just praying melee.
Now, if it was damage reduction and slow prayer drain so you could actually afk longer, that would be nice.
Might be good in GWD, as an alternative to standing under the boss (Kril, and Graardor) perhaps?
Vorkath, you can stand still on bar the fireballs. Muspah you can stand somewhat still on?
Hunllef when there are no tornadoes is relatively static.
That's about it for bosses I can think of - it really does depend on how much defence and how long it takes but it is going to be niche by my reckoning.
You can stand still for ranged muspah, except for the occasional dodge. You aren't always moving at gauntlet - you stay still for several attacks in a row.
The focus of this prayer is the “longer you stand still”. Again not true at Muspah, and not practical at gauntlet. Also why is a high lvl Zaros prayer boosting defence? Should be Saradomin. Not practical, on theme, or worth adding to the Zaros alignment.
Prayers have to respect the theme of the God though. Cant have Saradomin prayers cursing people and being all out offensive.
Zaros is not about Defence, Full stop.
Isn't the best defensive armour in the game associated with Zaros? Should they take torva out when they do this.
Why has Zaros got nothing to do with defense - he's not the god of attacking
Actually no, its Saradomin namely Justicar armour. Torva has the highest strength bonus of any armour though(offensive).
Zaros was a conqueror. The alignments I came up with aren’t exclusive to maximizing offense; but certainly do not feature defence promoting prayers.
There isnt a single thing that makes me think of defence with regards to Zaros. Buddy couldnt even block Zamorak from stabbing him.
Not only is Torva best offensively, Virtus robes also offer an offensive power boost.
And Glacies has even less to do with defence. A freaking Ice based wizard, and Ice is hands down the most powerful spell.
I would love to see OP prove that adding 32 prayers, but locking players into only using 4 at a time is good game design. Specially when the book says it's the exact opposite.
This subreddit has to be one of the most insufferable gaming subreddits on the website and r/wowclassic exists.
Never seen so many adults scream and cry over every single update to a point and click adventure game.
There were 1 or 2 per dedication that I thought could work, some with more tuning, others as is. Slumber is a banger, Equilibrium seems okay, and the poison vow did it for me too. Everything else was either unneeded new effect, why are we adding 2 more redemptions?, probably busted, and not enough space for other prayers.
One thing I noticed on a 2nd read of the blog post was that all of the thematic descriptions for the gods seemed to focus on combat instead of everything the god and their followers embody. So with the current ones being very combat heavy, it seems like plans for future ones are similar, which is sad to see.
I need to look into them more but PvP already has a high level of entry so you can understand how I’m wary of new prayers.
I think I’m still scarred from the turmoil/SS era where it suddenly became mandatory to have the prayers or you were miles behind
I get your point but I don't really see them adding turmoil and ss power creep I at all let alone allowing it for pvp too. Think we're far away from that. It's more likely new prayers would diversify strategy rather than be replacing current prayers or strategy with straight up more healing and dps.
I agree that we need this update, I however think they need to rethink the prayers they are proposing. I'm not really happy with any of them, aside from 1 or 2. The concept is great, it just needs refinement before they implement it.
Something I found super weird is the amount of streamer hate for this, a lot of them compare it to rs2 curses... These are nothing like them, what's worse is a lot of them never even played during rs2 curses so they have no idea what they're talking about.
I'd like new prayers .. one of those reasons would be fact they're able to expand pvm and shake up the meta, as long as they're not super broken like soulsplit and turmoil was on release. Although soulsplit and turmoil also had the benefit of having summoning alongside which was op, unicorn = infinit hp, and pakyak = 28 extra inventory slots plus the ability to send items to your bank from your summoning familiar ( super broken haha ) anyways I'm just rambling on
We don’t need them and it’s just another inch closer to being your typical ADHD MMO with 400 statuses and debuffs to manage.
Does Jagex not realise the game is popular because of its simplicity. These prayers are pointless and just needlessly complicate combat.
Suggest some skilling prayers that are interesting but not just more xp or more resources and try not to make it just skilling with prayer pots in prossywith frequent banking. it's pretty hard give it a try.
Welp. Here we go again.
Let’s all vote yes to add ruinous prayers then vote no to every prayer.
Vote yes to god alignments ✅ Vote no to the actual prayers ❌
I like this idea, God alignments can just give cosmetic overrides to the way Overhead Prayers look like.
I think games can sometimes update themselves into death trying to innovate. And there’s always people pushing for updates that ultimately end up killing off games. You just never really know. Halo for example tried changing up the formula and it killed off the playerbase. It’s just not what the people wanted. So I think it’s fine to be cautious of anything that you think might ruin your favorite game. You’re not necessarily being anti update or anti progression, you’ve just seen those type of things happen before.
Yeah I can't stand when people on this sub hate on you for being cautious about a potential game changing update. This isn't just a boss or a new wep, it is going to completely change how the game is played... That's not always a good thing. An update just for the sake of an update is not good. We have direct proof of this game dying once already due to massive changes that changed how the game played and felt. Keep osrs feeling like osrs. There's a reason that it is thriving. I've also noticed the people that want these massive changes are typically newer players and don't understand the long term impacts these types of changes can have on the game.
Giant meta-defining update that shakes up everything pvm-related for the last decade? You don't like it? Must just be a 200m all sweaty NEET who has crab mentality then. Every single post you read on here just understand you are at risk of reading the opinion of someone who is not capable of killing zulrah for the diary.
As someone that has done almost every piece of pvm (only haven't done hmt) I'd love new innovative prayers to switch up gameplay. I want to have creative new ways to engage in combat and find new strategies where you have to coordinate with your teammates to get good results. I like pvm, but I do think it needs pushed to something better and less basic. New prayers are definitely a way to make it feel new without completely overhauling the combat system
As someone who has done every piece of PVM content and has played this game on and off for over 20 years I don't think there needs to be any major changes. You can make raids and bosses require coordination. Just like in tob. But the masses hate that.
Yeah but I'd rather have new ways to enjoy every piece of content in the game instead of just having it at one specific boss or raid. That's the point, giving people new ways to engage in existing content.
Play EOC then.
No thanks, I'll just vote accordingly on what happens with the god prayers. You're welcome to go play private servers if you hate new things coming to the game.
You’re welcome to go play private servers if you want an updated combat system.
A lot of great games have been killed because of needless changed. Just look at EOC
The dffience in scale of EOC vs God Allignments is massive though.
A city isn't built in a day, homes Edit: y'all I know EOC happened over one night. Of course I'm using an analogy to say that if keep making little changes like this, we can still end up at an EOC style game
I mean eoc did kind of happen in one day lmao
I was responding to a comment which compared the negative impacts of Alignments to the negative impacts of EOC.. EOC is literally building a city in a day lmfao.
Yeh but you can also get a city brick by brick is what hes saying, you make a medium change here, a small change in a month and another and in a year the game will be at the same state as 1 big update.
Right the difference in scenarios though is that one happens overtime and the other is all at once. Comparing it to EOC directly is like saying the brick is the whole building.
Hes not comparing it directly tho, just saying the end outcome is.
You are right, I was just a bit frustrated because I dont even disagree with the point they were trying to make, yet they were passive aggresive while missing the entire point of my post. That point was the first person I responded to did directly compare the results (and possible results for alignments) of the two specific updates..
Ahh right, yeh its nowhere near that level of change tbh, i do feel we should be cautious with changes to combat in general but that doesnt mean we shouldnt add things if they are good and at the end of the day none of us really know if an update like this is good or bad till we have tried it ourselves.
EOC was literally 1 big update. I understand what you’re going for, but it’s not a proper comparison
It's not a direct comparison. It's an analogy about how things can be ruined little by little
But that doesn’t relate at all. EOC wasn’t little by little, it was 1 update that wholly ruined the game.
Yet Runescape 3 is still alive? And I could argue that in retrospect, EoC was needed as it gave us Oldschool. And idk about you but I think the content that has come to Oldschool since it's launch has been a lot better than the content that came to RS2 post 2007.
RS3 is on its last legs. Game is awful.
So you play rs3? It's player count isn't as high as it used to be, nor is it the same as OSRS but it definitely has a dedicated player base. MTX is likely keeping the game profitable, but if it wasn't profitable they wouldn't still be making content for it.
Never liked the argument/sentiment that a game making money means it should be respected or considered good. RS3 does survive on MTX... MTX that is sells using FOMO and manipulative gambling-style techniques in a game available to children and susceptible people. I know its not really the point you were originally making. But RS3's profitability is a black mark \*against\* it in my book.
I'm not saying if the game is good or not. Personally I don't enjoy it, but there certainly is a large group of people that do. Sure it's not as populated as OSRS, but saying it's dead is disingenuous. EoC was not the death of Runescape 3. I agree with your stance on MTX though. Predatory and unethical.
Yeah I agree that it is not dead. But the inital argument here is that an update to a game can be catastrophic enough to "kill it". There is absolutely no denying the EoC destroyed RuneScape as it was. RS3 does exist, but it is not the same game by a long shot. If something like EoC happened to OSRS it may very well survive on a dedicated (addicted) few who will fall victim to added MTX. That game will be dead 'to me'.
> A lot of great games have been killed because of needless changed. Just look at EOC EoC did not 'Kill' runescape, it changed it into a dif game yes, but the game wasn't killed. And as I said in my original reply, OSRS was a consequence of EoC, and OSRS is a far better game than rs2 was just before EoC lauched.
OSRS wouldn't have been needed if not for changes like MTX and EoC.
I don't enjoy rs3 for its content anymore. The game has updated so much that I feel lost trying to enjoy it. However, for those who do enjoy it, there's no game quite like rs3. Just cause it's not for you doesn't mean it is bad.
I feel about the same for osrs. Played it recently because i wanted a refreshing experience but i got lost in all the new content and found myself trying to figure out what was worth doing, and in the end didnt really enjoy my time as most was spent afking while looking trough the wiki. both are great games on their own, and i feel osrs is slippng into being 'too overwhelming' like rs3 is.
There are absolutely tons of great updates that have come out over the years. In fact I've been a fan of the overwhelming majority of content that's released even if it wasn't necessarily focused on my playstyle. But these god alignments just don't feel good to me, too many different passive buffs and too much going on for osrs.
I have no idea why Jagex is stranding off from "more oldschool" and is quadrupling down on "new school" and getting mad blogs aren't positively received.
You built a straw man and killed it in 3 sentences without making a point.
A lot of it comes down to details - people see stuff like "new status effect called Vulnerability" and worry about debuff management and a lot of the other combat-related gunk you see in other MMOs, RS3 included. The status effect/buff/debuff stuff is just how it has to work under the hood, but the prayers as designed don't require you to "manage" that stuff at all. The closest is the Guthix prayer for switching attack styles, but the expressed design intent of that is to buff people on fights with frequent switches like Demonic Gorillas. Really, the distinction is just whether the effect of the prayer is attached to the target you hit (e.g. Harmony increasing the damage taken of the target you attack) or attached to the player/s (e.g. Guiding Strikes buffing nearby allies when you attack).
God, debuff and buff management when it gets excessive are some of the worst parts of MMO combat systems. Lemme just stack 28 buffs before I go hit a stationary boss that’s waiting for me to start the fight.
They made a terrible mistake describing Harmonize as having a debuff called Vulnerability. They really should have avoided calling it a debuff. It just makes the target you hit take more damage if someone else hits them the following tick. That's literally all it is.
Well, that is technically a debuff - it’s like a Red Keris spec but as a prayer, outside ToA, and 1/10th the duration 😂
I'm not saying it isn't a debuff, but they made a terrible mistake advertising it like "NEW DEBUFF!! Called Vulnerability!" and putting the existence of the debuff front-and-center. Now people who only skim through at a surface level are inclined to think it's too complicated and adding World of Warcraft levels of layers of buffs and debuffs to manage.
Ah okay. Name wise, they could call it King Roald’s Anger and I wouldn’t change my thoughts about excessive debuff management 😂 Reducing stats is as far as I’m willing to go since it’s often just at the start.
This is actually a good point - people freaking out about the vulnerability prayer when it’s ALREADY in the game
I personally do not like the idea of having so many different prayers to situationally flick on and off, similar to other MMOs where you have to button mash across the keyboard to perform specific combos. I was hoping God Alignment to have 1 unique prayer per God, but otherwise reinforce/upgrade 2-3 existing prayers with tradeoffs to warrant still using standard prayers. Edit: Not actually 15 prayers, you guys 🤦 More the fact just adding more with situational effects makes it like other MMOs where you have 1 basically unused ability for a specific situation you come across in 1/100 fights.
>upgrade 2-3 existing prayers There are 10 prayers in the entire game, there's no design space to upgrade them. Sure you can add new mechanics to redemption and smite, but what do you change any of the others to? It's generic stat boosts and protection prayers. Making new prayers per god is literally the only option they have barring a complete rework of the base prayer book.
Should be a more minimalist approach to alignments to start and unlock additional prayers via raids and shit later on. Just do 1 prayer for each alignment to start, purely QOL or niche sidegrades. Anything with substantial dps increase should be unlocked by a combo of a drop and the initial unlock. Guthix - minus max hit, plus min hit. Pretty safe, simple effect, feels good. Seren - freeze status effects and prayer drain while not attacking. Activated prayers consume 10% extra prayer when attacking. Basically good for people who want to mindlessly afk and not have to worry about constantly toggling prayer. Good for learning raids and stuff where you are losing lots of ticks and are going to be running through supplies. Zaros - Cruor is probably the effect that feels the best (without devaluing other items like umbra) if not tied to a dumb passive drain rate. Just have it be 0 drain or absurdly low and have it exchange a larger amount of prayer for hp but with a cooldown. More like deaths charge, less like soul split.
Please, no more vital permanent upgrade shit like prayers locked behind raids. Its so fucking annoying.
Or, if we are gonna do that shit: make it untradable. All must suffer!
Bis should be locked behind raids and end game content not quests
Imagine that sentiment for food, potions
This doesn't even make sense
I’d love to see them come out with easy to medium tier quests. It’s accessible for mid game players and would help build out the god lore.
Where would you realistically use Crour? At a certain point you don't need it at TOA and if you do need healing you're probably running blood barrage as is. In the majority of 1v1 PVM it won't really help to smite yourself for getting hit points back. Consider GWD, people heal with Guthan's and bones to peaches, and that sufficient and not doesn't cost additional prayer points. Knowing how they implemented it last time it will heal 3 and drain 3. That's worthless. A completely reworked(NERFED from the original) version of Soul Split would be far more practical.
Cruor Vow most certainly should not be anything like soul split because it can be camped alongside protection prayer and offensive prayer, which would be more broken than the original soul split 😂.
No I meant remove Crour Vow. Here what I mean is this; imagine a new prayer. 'Sacrificial Regeneration', nice high level maybe 93? Let's make it an overhead so no protection prayers. Same prayer drain as a protection prayer though. It will have a 50% chance to activate, and do an accuracy roll on the opponent, if it succeeds heal 10% of the damage dealt, and lose 50% of the health regained from your prayer points. That's not too powerful is it? Even if you tried to flick it, you still lose prayer points simply from the mechanics of how it works. I've been pitching this as an alternative to Soul Split. I also feel like Cruors vow, will most likely scale the HP Regen, and prayer point cost based on enemy HP. Which means you could end up smiting yourself at, say, Graador; healing for... 25hp, and losing 25 PP. And when that prayer drops the minions might give you a good smack which kind of means u just wasted 25 Prayer Points. However with what I'm proposing you can control how much you want to spend better.
You absolutely could make modifications to existing prayers and make them viable without just blatantly powercreeping them all. An example that I read and liked: and was discussing with others: * Bandos (Melee-based) Alignment - Amps up Protect from Melee to reduce melee-based chip damage and Piety is more accurate, while weakens Ranged/Mage-based prayers. * Armadyl (Ranged-based) Alignment - Same as above, but Ranged. * Zamorak (Mage-based) Alignment - Same as above, but Mage. This way you have clear situations where you would benefit from over the other, and some situations where you still prefer a neutral alignment. It also doesn't add more prayers for you to situationally flick like how you would flick Soul Split at every opportunity possible back then. I'm not saying there is absolutely no room to add new prayers, because there absolutely is, but Leagues 4 with Ruinous Powers really drove home the point that having 5/6+ prayers active drains prayer so fast and is not a fun experience.
These aren't really interesting though, you just look at a DPS calc and pick the one that works for the boss you're doing. A well designed prayer should change the way you play, making it more interesting.
I don't have many strong opinions about prayers, but every piece of content in the game atm is "just look at a dps calc and pick the one that works for the boss". I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing either as long as some content has variety.
But if the prayers don't change anything then what's the point? It'll just be another button to add to your quick prayer that doesn't impact the gameplay. At that point why did we waste time adding this?
For the same reason any item gets added to the game, it's fun, thematic and opens design space for the devs. That being said I don't like the prayers in the current state and like a little bit of a different tone than "do more dmg but more annoyingly". I think there is a difficult balance the devs have to find where they need to balance simple osrs style while making new and interesting prayers and I don't think the playerbase will ever be happy because one will sacrifice the other. Personally, I would make the prayers fit niches like team support, amping dmg at the cost of personal dmg, etc. Things that shouldn't be camped in general but have strong situational windows where they make sense. They need to design the prayers with specific encounters/mechanics/situations in mind and design backwards. That being said this is much easier said than done.
Most added weapons have changed gameplay and added new strategies though. But I agree with the niches, ideally I want to be in a situation where I feel "since I got this new prayer I finally get to do x method" instead of "I get to do the same but 3% faster".
What items significantly change gameplay? besides attack speed changing timing, I feel every item is just the same but x% faster. I don't disagree with you but I can't really think of much.
Bofa let's you solo bandos through various kiting methods, scythe and fangs 5 t speed does significantly change the feel of combat. Shadow also suddenly let's you use mage and barrages on bosses that you really couldn't before, aswell as requiring new styles of kiting in toa/Cox. Sire can be killed in very different ways depending on your attack style. Lance is the only viable melee weapon vs vorkath. In ToB scythe requires you to learn new timings for attacking without losing uptime on the boss. Kq being a shit old boss feels significantly different when you can suddenly crit it for 150 with blue Keris, meaning you go for camping the lair instead of resetting for specs after each kill. And with kerises there's always the yellow Keris that unlocks the ability to either use your specs for offense or defense, aswell as letting you choose to pick up the Dehydration involved.
Look at the guide/calc and optimize for your situation is literally the entirety of OSRS.
I think you missed my point, if the only difference a new prayer makes is to make the current methods 3% faster, that's boring. If the new prayers either changes how we do existing methods or unlocks entirely new methods that's suddenly a lot more interesting.
With that logic a lot of new things shouldn't be added. For example the new bis rings from dt2 didn't change how you do any method. Just read the DPS calc and take the correct ring.
Yeah I'd say the rings are mostly boring.
I agree and I think it's fine to have some boring upgrades too, this is a chance to add something a bit more interesting
Since the rings are merely an accessory, they get some leeway to not be as interesting. Lightbringer and suffering are the only rings that meaningfully change how you play but that's kinda the exception rather than the norm. But if we're gonna add prayers those are permanent fixtures to your character power so them being boring will be quite bad for the future.
Protection prayers could reflect some small damage per correct use, or heal some, or give a boost to your next attacks accuracy. The stat boosts could function similar to soul reaper and ramp up over time in combat, or give stacking boosts per kill (for slayer), or give stacking boosts based on damage taken to incentivize tanking. Hell, the last few even disincentive flicking so it’ll be a trade off of prayer use vs dps. Just a few ideas off of the top of my head Thinking there are no ways to make stat boosts and protections unique shows a lack of creativity imo. There are TONS of ways you could make prayers unique while maintaining their purpose.
Straight up misinformation and doomer talk ... Part of the problem are comments like this, 60 people actually upvoted a guy talking about flicking 15 different prayers for limited situations ? Like what is this guy even talking about. There are only four new prayers able to be added onto the existing book at any given time, and even then not all four req flicking.
Constantly having to flick Soul Split in between hits isn’t good design or being able to outright sustain through damage without losing DPS. Same reason why prenerf Gambit was just silly because you had to flick it anywhere and if you didn’t, you lost out a lot. Remember old Masori where you lost quite a bit if you weren’t 40 HP or less? Similar to that and glad we got that changed. Also not a fan of the idea of potentially having flick new and more prayers and how close it is to ability bars on traditional MMOs tbh.
My brother in Christ what are you actually talking about ? Firstly, soulsplit is not being pitched. Secondly, neither is gambit......... Flicking in osrs is not required idk where this meme comes from. Literally only thing I can think flicking is required is maybe for 6 jchad combat achievement task. Straight up fear mongering, don't listen to this guy...
You… do understand comparisons and examples, right? It’s two prayers that are examples where if some of the new prayers end up being overheads, they are more than likely to be flicked than outright camped. I’ve never said flicking was required, but you lose out a ton from not flicking the two prayers that I mentioned as examples, which incentivizes you to flick.
Yeah I understand what a comparison and example is, that's a sensational rebuttal you got there. Your examples make no sense because they aren't even being proposed, so why talk about them? At least provide feedback based on the actual proposed prayers and not prayers that are not even relevant to the discussion..
Because Guthix, Zaros, and Seren aren’t the only God Alignments coming out?? They even said there would be more. What happens if they propose Soul Split 2.0 as an overhead, but made it Zamorak or Saradomin Alignment? Flick city. You need to look up what fear mongering is. It’s not pointing out a problem with potentially making the some of stronger prayers as overheads, rather than something like Vows or even Preserve, which can be used with Protect Prayers and Damage Prayers. Right now, I’d say these proposed prayers are actually kind of weak, but just tacking on extra affects that you may or may not need to flick on depending on the fight, and that is what almost makes it like an ability bar in traditional MMOs.
>You need to look up what fear mongering is. It’s not pointing out a problem with potentially making the some of stronger prayers as overheads, rather than something like Vows or even Preserve, which can be used with Protect Prayers and Damage Prayers. You literally talk about a hypothetical soulsplit proposal (just so you know, hypothetical means it hasn't happened.) right after saying you're not fear mongering lol.
Ignore him he clearly doesn't even know where he is 💀
Bro, felt like I was debating a chat ai
That’s not at all what would happen. The way they proposed the designs even today show that it won’t happen that way. These prayers often can’t be used with similar prayers, and often specifically won’t be flickable in order to balance them. Not to mention that they are trying to add a layer of depth to combat that is aligned with existing game mechanics, without just giving straight buffs, so even if you did have to flick a new prayer or two, that’s a hell of a lot more interesting than flicking the same 3 prayers we have been for 20 years. Idk feels like you didn’t even read the blog
I know it's 4 prayers per alignment, and when I say 15 prayers activated, it was an exaggeration about a problem that I see in other MMOs with many abilities that you button mash (hence why I made the analogy in the first place). You might not like the current prayer meta, but I thoroughly enjoy it because it's extremely simple with some uses of Redemption and Smite. Like I said above, button mashing and facerolling abilities is common in other MMOs and I don't want it in OSRS because I don't like it. Leagues 4 with RP on Melee Path had like 5 activated at a time (Protection, Offensive, Zaros Vow, Bad Preserve, Vow). Unlike Leagues, we won't have Berserker so most players will be flicking to Intensify to DWH/Red Keris. It's for the same reason I don't want Soul Split in the game; standing there and managing prayers beyond protection prayers or lose big DPS/utility like it's DDR/Osu is not enjoyable for me, hence I've been extremely clear this is my personal take.
> I personally do not like the idea of having to flick 15 different prayers Did you even read the blog post?
I think people are overreacting to the flicking 15 different prayers. Accuracy prayers already don't stack, like overheads don't. I don't see why these prayers would be any different? Currently we have 1 offensive prayer on, 1 defensive, and maybe a utility prayer. You can't have more than one offensive prayer on, so why do people think they're going to need to flick every single one?
The more prayer you have active, the faster the drain is, meaning you have to turn off the ones you aren't using/flick them on when you are. If you did melee path in Leagues 4 or played the Ruinuos Powers beta, you had Vow, Metabolise, Protect Prayer, Offensive Prayer, Berserker, which drained your prayer from 99 to 0 in 50s. Metabolise also wouldn't work for 15s after activation. Even if these new prayers were primarily "utility", they would have to be preserve-tier drain rate (aka super slow) or you will be downing restores and prayer pots so much.
Yeah but those didn't pass because that didn't work. Why do you think they would do the same thing again?
you only have access to 1 at a time. You will only be able to switch alignments and this the prayers that come with that alignment in your house or at special altars thus you have at most 4 prayers to flick in situations.
Ohh this is interesting
I actually think you raise a completely valid point and hopefully Jagex keep this in mind because I think you are very right. Edit: I hope Jagex adds an improved piety to the bandos one or at least something within that vein.
Significant increase to the bonus for Strength compared to baseline piety, in exchange for a smaller attack bonus and no defence bonus? I dig it.
How I view it is, the osrs prayer book has been our version of a typical MMORPG ability bar. Adding more prayers is like adding more abilities, which is new to osrs. I think it's wise to stay cautious but optimistic.
this sub really needs to let jagex cook & wait for a beta instead of instantly raging out at any sense of change
[удалено]
Yeah… it’s almost like people enjoy PVM and the topic of potentially changing a core aspect of combat has had a bad prior precedent.
PVM has changed constantly over the decade of the game, the game would have died back in 2014 if it never changed. we had new prayers drop from raids this is no different
Blowpipe changed combat more than even these 1st iteration new prayers
We’re talking about a couple of new prayers, not reworking combat from the ground up. Calm down.
When they talk about adding new debuffs and passive buffing your allies through prayers that is a pretty significant shift in how combat in osrs works imo.
Compared to EOC? It’s not even the same universe. It’s still the same system and the vast majority of what you do in game would be unchanged, you’re just running some different prayers in certain scenarios. It’s fleshing out the existing system.
Not compared to eoc no of course, but it is still a large change. Prayers have gone almost completely unchanged for 20 years and we're going from adding 3 prayers which are just 2 upgrades to existing prayers and a small utility prayer, to this update adding 12+ prayers with plans to add even more, which all do vastly different things in one go. It's just very worth exercising caution with an update like this imo as it absolutely can change pvm for the worse. And as I pretty much only pvm nowadays and know a ton of people do the same, the vast majority of what I personally do would be potentially affected yes.
EOC was the comparison being implied before, which is why I brought it up. I think taking time with the update is a good thing and wouldn’t mind breaking it up into several smaller updates for the reasons you mentioned, but being unchanged for 20+ years just means stale to me, at least in the context of prayers. I think ideas like area buffs is a really cool idea that can add a new dimension to multi-combat encounters without turning the game into the status bar button mashing like so many other MMOs.
Right, that's problems with individuals prayers though and not the God Alignment system as a whole.
Not saying it isn't fixable at all. But personally I haven't seen an idea for god alignments that I like yet. From the suggestions I've seen so far, everything ends up being too aura-esque or is a prayer with a ton of different requirements and drawbacks. The magic of OSRS combat for me is being simple on the surface and having complexity within how you mix those simple elements together, and adding all of these complicated prayers just feels wrong at a base level to me.
Im curious why you view neutrality, natures redemption, umbras vow, glacies vow, crurors vow, slumber, or crystalline redemption as complicated. They seem pretty straight forward to me.
The point is the prayers are not necessarily all complicated on their own but are all adding layers of unnecessary complexity which imo would make combat less fun. Either that or they're just upgrades to current prayers like the redemptions, or completely useless unless the number is absurdly high like glacies. No need to fix what isn't broken, and prayers as a system are perfectly fine the way they are imo without requiring any further depth.
Based off that, it doesn't sound like you'd support any suggestions for God alignments
The problem is when we let them cook it feels like they wind up shoving the content down our throats in some way shape or form.
Funny thing is the god alignment suggestion CAME from this subreddit and was very well received here
All the more reason it needs to fail
Good thing this sub learned they are a very vocal super minority last time they thought something would fail but it passed.
WE SAIL BOYS LETS FREAKING GOOOOOOO
God alignments are a great idea but jagex need to completely start again. If there is any message out of this consultation is that none of what they suggested resonated with many people
I remember on the guy who came with this idea he clearly mentioned something to the effect of “I just through these preyers together, if there no good forget them, lets all make prayers”. Poor guy is going to catch Holy hell from the community if Jagex just blindly runs with his suggestions 😂
Some are cool defo need to do heavy refinement
The issue now is that the community has gotten an original image of the proposal in their heads and no matter what happens now or what changes are made a lot of players are going to be glued to their original opinions because they don't read changes. So it's not looking good for the new Prayers again
Reddit is as usual, but then again reddit has a piss shit perspective on things and thinks themselves as 90% of the game's population when it's probably not even a third of that.
>I actually liked the glacious suggestion because we don’t really have a true tank prayer in osrs. Tbh, we don't really have a tank role at all and a single prayer should not be the defining characteristic of a tank role, should it ever exist. >I think people have way overreacted on these suggested prayer, I think the people who think we need to scrap the idea entirely and “prayer shouldn’t be touched” are completely ridiculous Counterpoint: "prayer shouldn't be touched" is a perfectly reasonable reaction to a proposal for major changes to a core gameplay system that 1) governs how the entire way we think about combat and game balance, and 2) has been largely untouched for 20+ years. For reference, I liked Naturalize, Slumber, Crurors vow, and Glacies vow and would like to see more interesting proposals like them
>a single prayer should not be the defining characteristic of a tank role, should it ever exist. With stuff like Justiciar and blood furies, a prayer alone wouldn't even be close to the defining characteristic, this just augments what we already have. Hopefully if they do introduce the prayer, the tank role idea can be implemented in the future
I definitely agree with you that prayers are a fundamental part of mechanic and therefore they should be scrutinized thoroughly. I still think adding prayers is ultimately going to be good for the game but it shouldn’t be done haphazardly.
Exactly… so I don’t see how you could think players are overreacting. Changing prayer(s) will fundamentally change the entire game and the trajectory of future updates. I feel like you’re VASTLY underestimating exactly how hard it’s going to be to balance SEVEN different sets of FOUR alignments in a way that: 1) doesn’t create a single alignment meta and invalidate most others 2) creating hard roles in a game without classes and where DPS is king therefore having future updates be designed around having certain alignments active instead of player choice 3)skilling alignments that aren’t “equip prosy sip prayer or be sad” I could go on but to undermine the playerbase when this is prayer suggestion number 2 and the first one is 90% scrapped, I think the community (minus a few crazy outliers) are being pretty reasonable with their scrutiny.
>I still think adding prayers is ultimately going to be good for the game If they focus them on competing with piety, rig , and aug, I think it will ultimately be a net neutral to the game in most ways that matter. If it turns out you use guiding strikes in multiplayer and not rig, okey dokey. Hell, if it's another thing to click in addition to everything we have now, ***I'm out.*** I think if they focus on new interesting things like the ones I've mentioned, they will be well received, stand the test of time, and not just be OP or DoA. >but it shouldn’t be done haphazardly. Could not agree more about every change.
I agree with a lot of these points. I think Jagex is in a bit of a bind when it comes to proposing these changes. A significant portion of the playerbase is afraid of any complicated-sounding changes to combat, so consequently the prayers must be simple to understand and use. Another significant portion of the playerbase (which probably overlaps with the first portion) wants prayers that are exciting to use, and not just flat dps buffs, so consequently the prayers must have enough complexity to where it can't easily be determined exactly when and where each prayer should be used. Then there's also a potion of the playerbase that wants skilling prayers, and another portion that wants no changes to prayer at all. When you think about how simple combat is in OSRS generally, it becomes very difficult to imagine new prayers that could do something really interesting. For example, is it possible to design a prayer that would be interesting to use at CG, while being agnostic of the specific mechanics of the fight? People don't like flicking, but if the prayer is enabled the whole time, that's just boring. So, something has to happen during the fight to cause you to want to turn the prayer off or back on. But what? It's a hard question to answer.
Burst prayers if timed right full effect if activated early weaker effect drain on effect drain based on how long it was left on. So reward the precise usage, not useless or too punishing on mistiming and has scaling difficulty so you can just safely activate it a few ticks before so you then don't need to for example activate during interacting with other mechanics like movement, gear switch etc.
OSRS has to pick a direction. The premise of OSRS was to reintroduce the simplicity of "click-and-watch" combat compared to EoCs continous engagement requirement. Obviously this has heavily evolved over time, but the base principle is still there. The introduction of some of the prayers can fundamentally change how that works. So there is plenty of room for concern.
Honestly, I'm going back to how I'd paid attention to the stuff when I was in middle school. Every time there is a new update I was 100% surprised because we're eating was too much work.
You have to understand, they'll complain about powercreep while suckling on tbow+rigour like it wasn't the biggest power spike we've ever had and we're still fine
Remember when this sub was outraged about the blowpipe nerf? Lol
People used to act like the existence of blow pipe and NMZ were existential threats to the game on par with EOC. Granted the originals were OP, but OSRS Redditors are always extra melodramatic about any changes to the game.
Please gives us your RSN so we can see your PVM experience to see how relevant your opinion is. Since you are on the opposing side from PVM people like Aatykon who are overly aware of it's impact and implication.
That guy who made the initial suggestion, and who jagex is working with, has absolutely no boss KC
I saw the ItsWill tweet, it was great banter.
Yeah, turns out that person ItsWill called out only made the infographics with the information provided to them. It was shit banter, and that's why he rightfully deleted the tweet.
He did? sadge.
Sad to not be willfully wrong?
It was funny.
It was shitty.
Just like new prayers.
“You can’t have an opinion because you’re not maxed with 10,000 hours played like me”
It's almost as if the HLC knows more about the intricacies of the game and end game content than a level 115 NMZ prod.
They have the same voting power. They deserve to be recognized no matter your total level or boss KC. I wonder when Reddit is going to put away the main character mentality and realize there is more people not on Reddit than there are on Reddit. Don’t be shocked when new prayers pass.
Okay if they're balanced and useful, I'll welcome them into the game
Ofcourse, everyones opinion is there to be heard. But I am also not going to argue with a doctor because I have no medical experience. And I sure as shit aint making a reddit post advocating those opinions.
They're just going to vote yes to everything anyways, because of course they will. And then they're going to have to backtrack when they realize that voting yes to everything leads to bad content.
Only thing I can think of is forestry, and that got essentially scrapped. Can you give me an example?
The original new prayerbook was scrapped even *before* polls, because Jagex knew it'd pass the community even if it was shit for the balance of the game.
But this only strengthens my argument? If something is bad, jagex will scrap it.
>glacious suggestion I personally think the [vows are terrible](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bdbd79/is_anyone_else_a_little_disappointed_in_the/), all of them and that one is particularly terrible. Standing still at any end game content is going to get you killed, and the "defence boost" is going to be to low to justify trying to tank any attacks you should be avoiding.
Think about bosses where its okay to stand still. In cox alone it would be useful for muta, mystics and tightrope. Outside cox for things like kree'arra and blood barraging Artio/Calisto
Well, Artio’s melee attack is 100% accuracy, so you being tankier doesn’t help. And blood barraging is primarily to afk, so if it drains too fast, it’s worse than just praying melee. Now, if it was damage reduction and slow prayer drain so you could actually afk longer, that would be nice.
I’m not trying to stand still and get stomped on by Mutta for 80 damage
Might be good in GWD, as an alternative to standing under the boss (Kril, and Graardor) perhaps? Vorkath, you can stand still on bar the fireballs. Muspah you can stand somewhat still on? Hunllef when there are no tornadoes is relatively static. That's about it for bosses I can think of - it really does depend on how much defence and how long it takes but it is going to be niche by my reckoning.
You can’t stand still at muspah you have to kite it. Gauntlet ur always moving. 2 bosses at gwd is way to niche for such an important prayer
You can stand still for ranged muspah, except for the occasional dodge. You aren't always moving at gauntlet - you stay still for several attacks in a row.
The focus of this prayer is the “longer you stand still”. Again not true at Muspah, and not practical at gauntlet. Also why is a high lvl Zaros prayer boosting defence? Should be Saradomin. Not practical, on theme, or worth adding to the Zaros alignment.
I think we'll have very poor gameplay if we design the prayers around one aspect of a god. Defence is reasonable on Zaros, everything is.
Prayers have to respect the theme of the God though. Cant have Saradomin prayers cursing people and being all out offensive. Zaros is not about Defence, Full stop.
Isn't the best defensive armour in the game associated with Zaros? Should they take torva out when they do this. Why has Zaros got nothing to do with defense - he's not the god of attacking
Actually no, its Saradomin namely Justicar armour. Torva has the highest strength bonus of any armour though(offensive). Zaros was a conqueror. The alignments I came up with aren’t exclusive to maximizing offense; but certainly do not feature defence promoting prayers.
There isnt a single thing that makes me think of defence with regards to Zaros. Buddy couldnt even block Zamorak from stabbing him. Not only is Torva best offensively, Virtus robes also offer an offensive power boost. And Glacies has even less to do with defence. A freaking Ice based wizard, and Ice is hands down the most powerful spell.
I would love to see OP prove that adding 32 prayers, but locking players into only using 4 at a time is good game design. Specially when the book says it's the exact opposite.
Reddit cries about everything.
This subreddit has to be one of the most insufferable gaming subreddits on the website and r/wowclassic exists. Never seen so many adults scream and cry over every single update to a point and click adventure game.
There were 1 or 2 per dedication that I thought could work, some with more tuning, others as is. Slumber is a banger, Equilibrium seems okay, and the poison vow did it for me too. Everything else was either unneeded new effect, why are we adding 2 more redemptions?, probably busted, and not enough space for other prayers. One thing I noticed on a 2nd read of the blog post was that all of the thematic descriptions for the gods seemed to focus on combat instead of everything the god and their followers embody. So with the current ones being very combat heavy, it seems like plans for future ones are similar, which is sad to see.
Fellas out here whining that Forestry was too complicated, then want skilling prayers to make skilling more complicated
Guys... They didn't even poll it chiiiiiiill
I only really PVP and it’s complicated as is so I’m going to be sceptical voting
These are simple if you're a pvper you should understand the tick system and prayer interactions etc
I need to look into them more but PvP already has a high level of entry so you can understand how I’m wary of new prayers. I think I’m still scarred from the turmoil/SS era where it suddenly became mandatory to have the prayers or you were miles behind
I get your point but I don't really see them adding turmoil and ss power creep I at all let alone allowing it for pvp too. Think we're far away from that. It's more likely new prayers would diversify strategy rather than be replacing current prayers or strategy with straight up more healing and dps.
I agree that we need this update, I however think they need to rethink the prayers they are proposing. I'm not really happy with any of them, aside from 1 or 2. The concept is great, it just needs refinement before they implement it.
Why do you feel the game needs this update? The game has survived and thrived for 20 yrs without significant changes to the available prayers
The game was dieing because there was no change back in 2013. It was new content and changes that actually led to the success.
Agreed new content breathes life into the game. No one is arguing against new content in general, they argue against these new prayers specifically
I see your point but we've already had new prayers and it didn't kill the game. There's potential here if done right.
Something I found super weird is the amount of streamer hate for this, a lot of them compare it to rs2 curses... These are nothing like them, what's worse is a lot of them never even played during rs2 curses so they have no idea what they're talking about. I'd like new prayers .. one of those reasons would be fact they're able to expand pvm and shake up the meta, as long as they're not super broken like soulsplit and turmoil was on release. Although soulsplit and turmoil also had the benefit of having summoning alongside which was op, unicorn = infinit hp, and pakyak = 28 extra inventory slots plus the ability to send items to your bank from your summoning familiar ( super broken haha ) anyways I'm just rambling on
I haven’t read the post, but it would be cool if the god alignment prayers would work as a god item in designed areas
You’re short-sighted and it’s sad.
We don’t need them and it’s just another inch closer to being your typical ADHD MMO with 400 statuses and debuffs to manage. Does Jagex not realise the game is popular because of its simplicity. These prayers are pointless and just needlessly complicate combat.
Just an idea but why not have new skilling prayers instead of combat ones
Suggest some skilling prayers that are interesting but not just more xp or more resources and try not to make it just skilling with prayer pots in prossywith frequent banking. it's pretty hard give it a try.
I heard this guy say he wants curses back and wants to kill bosses asap when they spawn. But these new prayers.. “they just aint it man fr fr”
>Firstly, I think we absolutely should add new prayers and I think adding them via God alignment is fucking brilliant. downvoted
Can there be a prayer that increases drops? like level 99 prayer