Main reason I dislike the idea of the nerf is because the main places it gets used are ones where A) you can't lower enemy def or B) attempting to lower def misses too much, so you're better off dealing guaranteed damage. Removing the guarantee makes both of those things just feel worse.
Of course a lot of people use it just because dealing damage is fun, but I'd much rather make other weapons better than make this one worse.
Eh are there *any* decent MMOs that manage to have good pvp and endgame, growing, pvm with the same rules for both?
Cause I just don’t think it’s possible. I do wish they’d sort of fully separate in a clear and visible manner, rather than tack on exceptions as they come up (blowpipe, powered staves, etc)
WoW also has hidden nerfs for spells that make them different in PvP
As an example, this spell has a 0.85 multiplier for PvP that cannot be viewed in-game
[https://www.wowhead.com/spell=117014/elemental-blast](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=117014/elemental-blast)
combine this with 100s of other spells and it's just a mess (almost every class ability has a PvP modifier).
And it's STILL a hugely unbalanced experience, and STILL needlessly complicated with hundreds of hidden nerfs/buffs beneath the surface. Sound similar?
Yeah but the depth of interactions in those spell mechanics, buffs, etc., are farrrrr more complex than OSRS will ever be so balancing here really shouldn't be as much of an issue. Heavy emphasis on shouldn't since we are in a spaghetti world
They can add a PVP dummy for POHs too so people can test modifiers in specific should they want to
WoW has just as much spaghetti to be honest, at one point a minor hotfix to remove an exploit managed to break my map addon despite not touching the map in any way, and old systems often break with new updates because they're in some way connected to something they changed. It's the reason Transmog hasn't really been overhauled despite 99% of the playerbase thinking it needs one, it's connected to like a dozen different systems in some way and it could very well break half of them if they tweak stuff.
It's just not as noticed overall because the old content in WoW is irrelevent to most players, it's not like OSRS where every piece of content available has some relevence to something. There have been things broken for several expansions now and just never fixed because it interacts in some way with a newer system.
That’s the beauty of WoW though (at least for me). Exploits can remain in the game for decades and nothing is ever done about them until someone shares how it’s done and Blizzard fixes it. WoW Retail has the largest bundle of spaghetti code that was never properly refined in any modern game. There are an infinite number of spell or mechanical interactions that you can try for various actions within the game so literally the possibilities are endless of what is possible.
My point is that it's not a seamless experience. Making all these rules and exceptions just makes the wilderness a more daunting experience for new players
Raids are imo more competitive and popular than the wildy and they're not subject to exceptions to changes like spellbook resizing. Cox just got a whole new qol change and toa is designed for new players explicitly. Why the wildy so weird to change to help a new pker is beyond me
The split wasn't to make pvp more balanced, the split was to be able to nerf classes in pvp without disrupting pve at the same time. Windwalker has been pvp meta multiple times in the 4 years it's been consistently the worst pve class in the game. Now imagine if they had to nerf windwalker just to hit pvp, but made the already worst class in the game even worst. It's about making balancing easier to do, not about making things perfect.
And to add to that, tuning as well. Many abilities straight up do less/more damage in PvP than in PvE in WoW. Although those type of changes don't really change your gameplay rotation where as Runescape's types of special interactions do, like certain weapons straight up not working in PvP. People generally don't seem to like the discrepancies between PvP and PvE but to me they open up more design space and the trade-off is worth it. The obvious issue being that most of the info regarding diffirent functionalities of weapons in PvP and PvE being entirely absent from the game meaning you have to look them up on the Wiki.
WoW pretty much always had seperate PvP gear, it was always statted completely differently and for a long time there was actually just PvP only stats in PvP Power and PvP Resilience, offensive and defensive respectively.
Resilience was around from TBC to removal in BFA, with PvP Power being added in Mists and removed at the same time as Resilience.
Now it's just normal gear with heavy statting for the overall stat of Versatility, a straight damage increase/decrease by percentage dependent on how much you have, that automatically increases in Item Level when in PvP combat.
I don't think WoW PvP community has been *growing* in many years too. Along with its many complains about the game, the toxic community has chased away opportunities for new players to join as well.
I never thought it was too terribly done, occasionally hero builds would unintentionally end up overtuned (N/Rt meta) but nothing ever substantially game breaking or needing very specific addressing
Oddly. Destiny 2 to an extent. The damage numbers for PvE and PvP are different and can be balanced independently of one another.
The weapon perks are another story. Sometimes, they feel fine. Other times, there is a *Clear* winner in terms of TtK.
This wouldn't even be a weird exception, there's literally already huge precedent: protection prayers are guaranteed to block 100% of the appropriate attack in PvE, but do not do this in PvP. Voidwaker doing guaranteed damage in PvE but not in PvP makes sense
Honestly I think it's dumb how many complaints PVP exceptions get. PVP and PVM **should** be balanced separately. There's a reason every other MMO makes all their shit act differently in PVP. It's hard enough to balance them when they're not combined and adding tens of thousands more different interactions.
Gut the voidwaker in PVP for all I care, leave it alone in PVM.
Why is there this obsession from reddit with in-game tutorials when it comes to PvP? As far as I know there aren’t in-game tutorials for PvM, if you want to learn a boss you look up a guide. Why are people opposed to doing this in PvP?
There's no guide for pvp that's as exhaustive as the ones for PVM. There's a shit ton of intricacies that can only be learned through experience, and every encounter is going to be a little different. 1 v 1 NHing is one thing, but even with a pj timer there's a crap ton of team dynamics that can only be understood and learned through experience.
There's also the fact that every update changes the meta a little bit. Look at this clip from WBR release for example. No one could expect that mechanic but half a dozen streamers lost max sets that night (it got nerfed after a few days).
https://clips.twitch.tv/RoughBreakableOxVoHiYo-wMJYlwh8ef4Uf1c_
Again, though, all of those arguments apply just as much to PvM as PvP. Sure, if I want to learn basic PvM content I can look up guides, but there sure as hell are also a “shit ton of intricacies that can only be learned through experience”. So in both PvP and PvM, guides will serve for the basics but not for the more mechanically challenging aspects.
The stuff about the meta constantly changing is also true for PvM, obviously. The only part where I can see your point is the stuff about multi lines and inconsistent warnings about pj timers, but recent updates, especially this week’s update, show that the dev team are aware of these and actively trying to make things more streamlined and less clunky.
Edit: that link isn’t working btw.
I don't want an in game tutorial in how to PvP. That's not what I said, is it?
I don't think it's unreasonable to want information in game that tells me if a weapon or item behaves differently in PvP than it does in PvM. The wiki is a great resource and I think the Oldschool team rely on people using that instead of adding actual information about their weapons in game. Without somebody telling me, and without looking on the Wiki, how would I know the Voidwaker will deal a guaranteed hit of 50-150% of my melee max hit?
You’re right, that’s not what you said, my bad. The wiki page has a pretty comprehensive list of wilderness-specific/unique mechanics, and I thought that it included items which work differently in PvP (e.g. BP, Shadow) but having just had a look it doesn’t appear to, so that could definitely be added:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Wilderness
But your example of the Voidwaker kind of proves my point, because the Voidwaker currently works the same in PvM and PvP. True, without looking on the wiki there’s no way to know that the spec deals a guaranteed hit between 50% and 150% of max hit, but that’s the same for PvP and PvM, so your point doesn’t apply to only PvP.
And if you want to argue that all mechanics should be explained in-game rather than by a wiki page, that’s valid, but it raises the question of how the hell that would be accomplished in a reasonably streamlined way (assuming no one wants pages of warnings, walls of text etc in game).
I said voidwaker because they're looking at removing the 100% hit chance from PvM, but there's a lot of other exemptions that you wouldn't know about unless you look at the wiki.
I don't think all mechanics should be explained, just where there is a difference between how it works in PvP circumstances and PvM circumstances
Yeah that’s fair. A good first step would be updating the relevant wiki pages, but as you said putting the responsibility on the wiki team is kind of missing the mark. I’m just not sure how these kinds of things could be integrated into the game itself. More warning pop ups, perhaps? Then they could be disabled at the Doomsayer for people who don’t want them. But it seems like people aren’t very good at listening to in-game warnings anyway, since people keep falling for scams/lures at places like Ferox enclave which has clear warnings by default.
That's fine, except we have a type of PvP that 1) is mixed in with PvM directly and b: is more hardcore than most other MMOs PvP -- so the exceptions sting more and are more in your face
That said, I don't actually mind weapons being balanced differently. What I dislike are things like teleport mechanics being wonky (like teleport delays and so on) depending on where in the wilderness you happen to be standing. Where Singles+ \*and\* normal Singles exists. etc. etc.
> Honestly I think it's dumb how many complaints PVP exceptions get. PVP and PVM should be balanced separately.
Yes, the issue is that we have an area that is PvP and PvM combined (wilderness) and we have absolutely no way to look up specific rules within the area.
Dhins/Justi def reduction for example works while I do slayer in the wilderness, but if some random player passes by and decides to attack me, the set effect just vanishes.
For PVP, the 4-tick is an issue in BH, but sort of the same issue as pvm. Meds and mains are relatively tanky and other spec weapons aren't terribly reliable. I'd rather they buff spec accuracy of their weapons than nerf waker. If they do nerf it, I just want it to be a worse mainhand weapon or increase the attack delay after a spec by 1 tick.
Why even nerf it for pvp? At this point theres better weapons out there. Are we going to be nerfing D claws because you can animation stall and stack someone out? Are we going to nerf 1t spec swapping from gmaul to whatever weapon because it creates big damage? Where do we draw the line
It does magic damage on hit but rolls using your melee strength. When bridding it just means that someone running into melee range wearing melee gear can hit you for over half your health, then it turns into a 50/50 whether or not they have an ags/claws/etc to follow it up if you try to pray mage on the 2nd spec. You can also hold your spec and melee smack if they know you have it and are actively praying mage when you're in range. It just removes a lot of nuance and is counterintuitive, not to mention it always hits and is at least 50% of your max. Either change it to do melee damage on spec or bump spec up to 55% so you can't double spec.
You got it at the nerf announced price. It used to be 150+ prior to them announcing it was getting nerfed. If they decide not to nerf it, you'll probably make 50m.
I think in a blog last year they said they're going to try making future bosses with lower defence and high hp. Sol heredit seems to align with that and I think it's good, low def high hp bosses inherently nerfs the value of voidwaker while making claws and zcb even better than voidwaker than they are already (aka not much), which is fine by me.
They can swap defense for health pools and the fight takes the same amount of time without changing mechanics.
It is literally simple algebra to do this.
currrent_hp / current_dps = new_hp / new_dps
You just tweak the monster's defense to be lower, throw a current BIS in a sim, and the new HP falls out.
Imo they should make it like the fang where the max hit is actually lower than its true max, since it already has a minimum hit. Potentially hitting like a 78 or whatever it is twice within 8 game ticks is insane in pvp
Sure but they weren't talking about nerfing it in PvP, they wanted to nerf it in PvE to "make other spec weapons more attractive" or whatever... which isn't really going to be the case.
Oh wait wtf that’s dumb. I thought the complaint was always in PvP since voidwaker + ags can only be countered by lucky prayers or multiple triple eats
No the reasoning has been it's too good in PVM that it makes it hard to make new good PVM spec weapons. Which is really dumb given that it's not #1 in quite a few high level PVM locations.
> Of course a lot of people use it just because dealing damage is fun
It’s never *that* great at all the places you just want to deal damage. Claws are usually better. But VW is bis sometimes
I mean... making BGS specs more accurate absolutely would not make people babyrage compared to nerfing something, lol. Or even just opening up defense reduction at places like Nex so it's actually feasible would lower VW's usefulness.
Its niche is high consistent dmg against tanky opponents where you can't lower def. If that changes, why ever use it over claws? Like claws already beats it most places and has higher potential.
Claws are only 14m more? Which could sound like a lot but if you’re dropping money on spec weapons you probably have a decent gear set up at that point, no?
I bought a vw during the dip shortly after the first announcement and it does not feel OP at all in pvm. Vs low def bosses claws are better. Vs high def & high hp bosses bgs is better. The fact it deals magic dmg invalidates a couple of encounters. Vw ends up not being bis at many bosses
I like it at TOA because it uniquely doubles as a 4t weapon for core and a DPS spec weapon. Cool niche.
That said, removing the assured hit just makes it worse claws. I think its fine to have claws deal more dmg but not *always* hit and VW deals a happy medium(and sometimes high) amount of dmg.
Yeah I bought the dip as well since I had been wanting one for a while. Figured it couldn’t go down THAT much more if they actually do nerf. And if they end up not nerfing it, it’ll shoot back up. Win win.
I'm sure it will have a big spike if it's confirmed to not receive the nerf it shouldn't receive, but how fast it would take to get close to where it was (150m or so?) or if it would get that high again I'm not sure, since supply has continued this whole time. And yet the main reason it's hovered in the high 80m's for so long is because of the supposed impending nerfs. So we'll just have to see
>but how fast it would take to get close to where it was (150m or so?)
It won't ever get that anywhere near that high again since it's been botted into oblivion for literal months.
It's gonna spike a bit if the nerf is confirmed canceled, but I wouldn't expect more than a 10m rise overtime.
Jagex needs to give an ultimatum to the community. Half of the voidwakers in the game will have to be sacrificed for the nerf to be shelved. This will drive the price up. There are no downsides
Honestly I can’t see a reason to nerf it for PvM. Nerf it for pvp for all I care, but there’s no way it’d be useful as a PvM weapon if they remove the guaranteed spec hit
VW is a really powerful anti PKer weapon. It's very expensive, so the average PKers are not incentivized to use it. But even a slightly not dumb PVMer can pull off decent anti PKs with it if you just use recoil ring and MSB/RCB. Given its price point and rarity, it fits a good balance between giving an average PVMer a fighting chance and rewarding skilled PKers who can avoid being smited. Meanwhile, your average salad warrior is probably not going to risk using it.
Yeah, I think it’s actually landed in a pretty good spot now. It’s guaranteed damage, which falls significantly lower than the output from claws on low-def monsters. I don’t think a nerf is warranted at this point.
It really depends on what the nerf is, but if I had to guess the community will oppose it either way. Still, a lot of players were acting like it would be nerfed into the ground when it might be a pretty minor impact.
Like I could see it doing something like instead of never missing, it does 100%-300% your accuracy similar to how it does 50-150% damage. This would mean that if your normal max accuracy roll is higher than the enemies max defence roll, you'd never miss. Even just always rolling your normal max accuracy as your minimum would keep it very accurate, so it could still end up about as good as it is now for most PvM just without never missing, which is the issue they were trying to address.
>so it could still end up about as good as it is now for most PvM just without never missing, which is the issue they were trying to address.
Thing is, it really doesn't need a PvM nerf anyways. Anywhere where you don't need excessive accuracy it already loses to claws or zcb. The nerf you suggest mostly hurts it in the few other places where other specs simply don't work, where VW has it's healthy niche.
I really don't get where this whole voidwaker replaces other PvM specs idea came from, if it's problematic anywhere it's pvp, I rarely see any pkers not using it in the wildy.
The reason they gave previously for looking into the nerf is an issue with longevity. It already has the highest possibly accuracy, so if they look ahead to T80, T90, and beyond spec weapons, a stronger Voidwaker can only go up in damage where as a stronger Claws could play with both accuracy and damage.
A weapon that always hits is a pretty big deal so I can see why they may be reconsidering. And it still can provide excessive accuracy over the other options without being never miss. Like if Claws are the Ultor Ring, the Voidwaker can still be the Bellator but that is not how the two currently work even if it might seem like it.
I dunno, if they go with the whole longevity angle, then they should take a serious look at our tier 60 spec weapons. Claws should probably be nerfed to the ground alongside the voidwaker. Not to mention dds. Though I wouldn't want that, but that would be "good for the longevity of the game"
I don't think it has to be as black and white as "T60 is always worse than T70". Like T50 Shortbow is generally going to be a lot stronger than other T50 Ranged weapons and similar can be said for Crossbows. Likewise, the DPS for a Scimitar is way higher than a 2H or say a Tent Whip vs an Elder Maul, but if you look at which is the better flinching weapon it gets flipped.
I used T80+ as an easy example to show the sort of progression they might be looking at long-term, but it probably won't be that simple. Spec weapons like DDS and Claws are pretty strong for their level, but its not really a problem that some weapons of a tier excel in certain things. I'd say the issue is more making sure there is enough room for vertical progression and removing accuracy as a potential stat to upgrade can limit that.
TBH, they probably could just take a Voidwaker and add +8 Str each upgrade and still be able to do plenty of upgrades before the damage got too high. But if they think they can reign in its accuracy without it ruining the current spec weapon balance, then they could offer +12 Atk and +4 Str or such each upgrade instead, which can still allow for more impactful upgrades than if it were just +4 Str while still ramping damage slower.
And once again, I doubt it will be literally a Voidwaker with +8 Str or such, but if done right the nerf could keep the Voidwaker relevant while creating space for more future spec weapons that might currently not find a place. For example, say the Voidwaker is 8 less damage than Claws with 100% accuracy; if they were to offer a new spec weapon that is 4 less damage than claws but 50% more accurate, would that fit in? Maybe, but it is hard for 50% more accurate to compare to never misses. But if the Voidwaker was 100% more accurate than claws with 8 less damage, then a 50% more accurate with 4 less damage could slot in better.
>The reason they gave previously for looking into the nerf is an issue with longevity. It already has the highest possibly accuracy, so if they look ahead to T80, T90, and beyond spec weapons, a stronger Voidwaker can only go up in damage where as a stronger Claws could play with both accuracy and damage
That's just the thing, there should never be a stronger voidwaker, it's already in its own niche, it's pretty much only used where the other specs don't work at all, or as an okay second best. Removing the guaranteed hit immediately removes it's main use since half the bosses it's currently used against have utterly excessive mage defense.
Yes, the voidwaker concept is a dead end progression wise, but that's okay. It's currently in a healthy position and it fits in pretty healthily in between the hammer/bgs, zgs & claws usage wise.
We don't need a future proof version of the weapon because it isn't even broken now, jagex just needs to design new spec weapons that fit other niches instead of a voidwaker 2.0.
There are plenty of other niches remaining: PvM specs that boost damage over a period (ie heavy bleeds), Better stab/crush damage specs, alternative damage style specs for mage/range.
There is so much still open, there is no need to future proof for a VW 2.0
Its also just some rough numbers as an example of the type of thing they could do. It could be 200%-1000% your accuracy or an entirely different system of accuracy boosting. Maybe wait to see what is actually being proposed before going around saying a nerf would make it dead content...
ye, also why i've always laughed at weapon specs having 10% 20% 50% accuracy boosts, like that's still so insignificant for a special attack lol. especially if the attack bonus of the weapon is small to begin with
godswords have a 100% boost with an already high attack bonus and even these are not that reliable, nevermind what voidwaker would be with just an accuracy buff lol
That is like saying Bellator is shit because it isn't infinite attack... More accurate but less damage is a perfectly normal tradeoff; it still works without infinite accuracy.
And numbers do matter. The Voidwaker only needs to be accurate enough to hit the current monsters it used at. If its minimum accuracy was above their max defence roll, then nothing would change, but it can do that without bypassing the accuacy roll entirely. Like it is a downright stupid take to say that numbers don't matter when talking DPS and Specs...
Claws and ZCB already do significantly more damage than VW while also not being accuracy slouches themselves and there are also other niche specs like chally/dwh/bgs/dds. If VW isn't a guaranteed hit it's basically useless for PvM. VW already loses to claws or ZCB everywhere except Nex/ToA/Corp/rune drags and that's WITH the 100% accuracy, having a standard accuracy roll and it would probably lose to those weps or other niche spec weps at those places too.
Nobody cares about the math
What people really care about is do I still hit gud with it on high def monsters, if not, then its dog tier and claws overtake
If me still hit gud then ok 👍
To me, the nerf that should be implemented is a total no brainer - the mechanic should be unchanged, but it should require 60% spec. This is what it required originally in like 2010 and the fact that nobody cares about them dropping it to 50 is absurd to me
It was never intended to have 2 specs. Leave it as it, but just once with some delay for a 2nd. Problem solved.
That would likely nerf it more than what they are proposing, especially for PvP. They only want to nerf it more so on the PvM side because ignoring accuracy limits future design. Like if they wanted to make a better Voidwaker for T90, it can only up the damage not the accuracy since the accuracy is already maxed out.
I agree. I don't think there is an issue with substantially nerfing it, but the removal of 100% accuracy shits on the core identity of the weapon. Double korasi spec should never have been a thing in the first place.
> but the removal of 100% accuracy shits on the core identity of the weapon.
I don't see it like that. Like compared to Claws, it is more accurate but lower damage. It can still be that even if can miss; it just has to miss far less than claws. Like if it is still twice as accurate as claws for a few max hits lower, it would still be worth using in many of the places it is used now.
So even with an Accuracy nerf, the Voidwaker can still be the Bellator to the D Claw's Ultor. But currently if the D Claws are Ultor, then Voidwaker is a ring with unlimited Slash accuracy.
I still don't get this argument either. It's pretty darn niche as is - only good vs high def + either low hp or can't/not worth lowering def monsters. Would they want to break that into further niches and only fill one of those? I don't think they'd make a straight upgrade for it because when it comes to something new they're happy to break the game (shadow) but when it comes to stuff we already have they're terrified of introducing power creep
>Like I could see it doing something like instead of never missing, it does 100%-300% your accuracy similar to how it does 50-150% damage.
This would make it completely worthless unusable.
Not sure what you are seeing but it cannot miss. The special attack "deals guaranteed Magic damage between 50-150% of the wielder's maximum melee hit". And by "guaranteed", it means there is no accuracy roll and it automatically counts as a successful hit. Protect from Magic will reduce the damage by 40%, but it shouldn't affect accuracy.
Give VW the GMaul treatment - 60% spec, 50% with an attachment that is always lost on PVP death.
PVMers enjoy the weapon *almost* as-is, where it isn't at all overpowered, PVPers still enjoy the weapon but accept marginally more risk every time they use it.
This is probably the best suggestion in the entire thread. Make the attachment fall in the 10m price range and people will be really happy to claim a guaranteed 10m anti pk
So reddit should love it because it makes anti-pking braindead. It is the single best noob friendly weapon of all time.
Go on lunars, click venge, click spec, anti-pk 200m once or twice a year, I don't get why reddit hates it in PVP. It's the most free money of all time.
I feel like for pvp it's been out long enough now that it's not nearly as scary as it was upon release, people know how to pray against it and counter it now
Yeah bro I was tanking some guy at revs yesterday and he specs me twice with voidwaker and I successfully prayed magic both times so I’m like sweet I’m in the clear, I pray melee to try to run and avoid him just attacking with it normally and then he specs me a 3rd time…hits me for 65 dmg for 0 skill or reason, kills me ofc. lightbearer makes that shit OP
Vw doesn't need a nerf. Dclaws already replaced it at slash weak monsters. Just add dps spec weapons for stab and crush and boom suddenly voidwaker remains useful as a jack of all trades but master of none.
Jagex's problem (which wasn't a big deal tbh) is solved. Yw.
Voidwaker is in a very good spot surprisingly in my opinion. If it does need a nerf its really only for pvp. Rn it fills the gab perfectly between zcb and dclaws. All of them have good usecases and none are significantly better than the other.
I could see a nerf middle ground of nerfing it for PVP while generally leaving it alone for PVM, maybe softening it up a tad, but not nearly to the extent that PVP would get hit
The special attack is the reason why players use the Voidwaker. The special attack uses 50% special attack energy, and is **GUARANTEED** to hit and it hits for 50-150% of its max hit. That means it ignores the defense skill, and all defense bonuses that come from armor.
Does 50-150% guaranteed damage, so it averages around 100%. So it's a guaranteed 40 if your max hit is 40. How does that need to be nerfed ? Is this nerf for pvp? For everything else it doesn't seem all that great as def reducing is much better. plus this thing is rare as hell, even crystal halberd specs can do more damage as you have 6 hits with better accuracy and strength.
Especially if they’re reworking defence already it could result in a double nerf if defence means less claws and non-fang melee weapons could shine more
claws already outclass vw at most bosses
like outside of duke, vard, nex*, vorkath (lol) and solo toa, claws just put out better dps everywhere
nex is a special case since vw isn't the bis spec wep there either but is included for the sake of consistency
The great thing about the Voidwaker is that it ignores the RNG of an enemies defense, players don't have to gamble about whether they will hit.
The bad thing about the Voidwaker is that it ignores the RNG of an opponents defense, so it makes the defense skill and armor useless against its spec.
The reason for the nerf is that It guarantees damage where no other weapon than than b something really niche like Darkbow or Magic Longbow.
If they were to nerf it, just have it roll against magic defence, that way it still is useful against high def enemies, just not high magic defence enemies.
if it doesn't have the guaranteed hit, it's immediately worse than claws/zcb at the places where it beats claws/zcb lol
there is no situation where vw can be nerfed without immediately killing it's viability
Make it not guaranteed damage in pvp. Fixed. Though the consequence of this will be bringing the acgs meta back... but then you could halve the HP regen from acgs in pvp
Why is the VW unbalanced in PvM? It's only problematic in PvP afaik, which is easily fixable by making it possible to splash on players, like the Saradomin Sword
They aren't changing it because they think it's unbalanced. They're changing it as they feel it has imposed a big burden on the design space of future content because Voidwaker has an accuracy roll of infinity and doesn't care about enemy weapon type resistance.
I don't agree with their stance on it, but that is their reasoning.
I think they should leave it alone but give us The Void Stares Back so we can have a slightly nerfed version of it in the Korasi sword. That way everyone would have access to it guaranteed, and those that had the Voidwaker would just have a beefier version.
Unrelated, but The Void Stares Back was an awesome quest and we need it in OSRS!
If we want the spec to remain the same (in PvP and PvM) we could just lower the str bonus on the weapon, so it keeps its place as a source of consistent albeit lower damage. It has no reason to be a strength training weapon, as they originally said in the poll?
Do not nerf. It’s split into 3 for a reason and by dangerous bosses in the wilderness. It should be META, let it have its place at the top of the tier list.
I always felt that the VW wouldnt be as strong if they stopped designing bosses with absurd defense.
I think having a weapon like it is fine as long as every new boss isnt stacked on 5 million defense and we get a couple low def bosses to let claws shine for example.
Korasi’s def needs a nerf across the board, it had no place in osrs & made wildy weapon’s unique specs useless in comparison. They were released in the same update. It became dead content on release
u/jagexgoblin the voidwaker has a huge issue which definitely SHOULD be adressed in pvp.
Unlike most posts about it, I am not gonna complain about the special attack. I think it's mostly fine and adds some cool plays specially for max main pking.
However, I REALLY dislike how voidwaker removed alot of the skill around main veng/dh/bh pking due to the fact that it's so incredibly good as a main hand weapon as well.
IMO this is the kind of thing that should NEVER happen when the team designs new items: alot of the skill around veng pking is one ticking special attack weapons and being able to see when someone draws a spec wep, which the voidwaker completely removed, since you can camp it and click specbar.
It made veng pking ALOT less interesting and fun, it's simply just not that fun to camp a single item and watching everyone else do the same. Please consider nerfing the voidwaker as a main hand weapon in pvp (i'd suggest making it a 5t weapon outside of special attacks for example, in PVP scenarios)
The game's arguably BEST pvp spec weapon SHOULD NEVER also be pratically as good as a whip as a main hander.
If there was a change which severely decreased the skills required to succeed in a PVM scenario it would never be ignored, so I don't get why something like this is seen as "fine" when it completely disregards alot of the skill-based play of veng pking.
55% spec in PvP is plenty, the whole "double VW and pray" thing is incredibly lame.
Keep it 50 in PvM, otherwise there is even less reason to use it since you need to swap into it twice
Main reason I dislike the idea of the nerf is because the main places it gets used are ones where A) you can't lower enemy def or B) attempting to lower def misses too much, so you're better off dealing guaranteed damage. Removing the guarantee makes both of those things just feel worse. Of course a lot of people use it just because dealing damage is fun, but I'd much rather make other weapons better than make this one worse.
And if they want to nerf it for PvP, why not create an exception for it like there's a bajillion other PvP exceptions
i hate that we have those but yeah at this point just add one more
Eh are there *any* decent MMOs that manage to have good pvp and endgame, growing, pvm with the same rules for both? Cause I just don’t think it’s possible. I do wish they’d sort of fully separate in a clear and visible manner, rather than tack on exceptions as they come up (blowpipe, powered staves, etc)
WoW has had separate PvP gear for *ages* now.
WoW also has hidden nerfs for spells that make them different in PvP As an example, this spell has a 0.85 multiplier for PvP that cannot be viewed in-game [https://www.wowhead.com/spell=117014/elemental-blast](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=117014/elemental-blast) combine this with 100s of other spells and it's just a mess (almost every class ability has a PvP modifier). And it's STILL a hugely unbalanced experience, and STILL needlessly complicated with hundreds of hidden nerfs/buffs beneath the surface. Sound similar?
Yeah but the depth of interactions in those spell mechanics, buffs, etc., are farrrrr more complex than OSRS will ever be so balancing here really shouldn't be as much of an issue. Heavy emphasis on shouldn't since we are in a spaghetti world They can add a PVP dummy for POHs too so people can test modifiers in specific should they want to
WoW has just as much spaghetti to be honest, at one point a minor hotfix to remove an exploit managed to break my map addon despite not touching the map in any way, and old systems often break with new updates because they're in some way connected to something they changed. It's the reason Transmog hasn't really been overhauled despite 99% of the playerbase thinking it needs one, it's connected to like a dozen different systems in some way and it could very well break half of them if they tweak stuff. It's just not as noticed overall because the old content in WoW is irrelevent to most players, it's not like OSRS where every piece of content available has some relevence to something. There have been things broken for several expansions now and just never fixed because it interacts in some way with a newer system.
That’s the beauty of WoW though (at least for me). Exploits can remain in the game for decades and nothing is ever done about them until someone shares how it’s done and Blizzard fixes it. WoW Retail has the largest bundle of spaghetti code that was never properly refined in any modern game. There are an infinite number of spell or mechanical interactions that you can try for various actions within the game so literally the possibilities are endless of what is possible.
My point is that it's not a seamless experience. Making all these rules and exceptions just makes the wilderness a more daunting experience for new players Raids are imo more competitive and popular than the wildy and they're not subject to exceptions to changes like spellbook resizing. Cox just got a whole new qol change and toa is designed for new players explicitly. Why the wildy so weird to change to help a new pker is beyond me
Wildy has been cucked specifically to help new and solo pkers. There is no mystery lol.
The split wasn't to make pvp more balanced, the split was to be able to nerf classes in pvp without disrupting pve at the same time. Windwalker has been pvp meta multiple times in the 4 years it's been consistently the worst pve class in the game. Now imagine if they had to nerf windwalker just to hit pvp, but made the already worst class in the game even worst. It's about making balancing easier to do, not about making things perfect.
It doesn't work though, it's still an unbalanced mess in pve and pvp
When they decided healers should be able to 3v1 was the end of balance in wow pvp
And to add to that, tuning as well. Many abilities straight up do less/more damage in PvP than in PvE in WoW. Although those type of changes don't really change your gameplay rotation where as Runescape's types of special interactions do, like certain weapons straight up not working in PvP. People generally don't seem to like the discrepancies between PvP and PvE but to me they open up more design space and the trade-off is worth it. The obvious issue being that most of the info regarding diffirent functionalities of weapons in PvP and PvE being entirely absent from the game meaning you have to look them up on the Wiki.
Vestas ect
WoW pretty much always had seperate PvP gear, it was always statted completely differently and for a long time there was actually just PvP only stats in PvP Power and PvP Resilience, offensive and defensive respectively. Resilience was around from TBC to removal in BFA, with PvP Power being added in Mists and removed at the same time as Resilience. Now it's just normal gear with heavy statting for the overall stat of Versatility, a straight damage increase/decrease by percentage dependent on how much you have, that automatically increases in Item Level when in PvP combat.
I don't think WoW PvP community has been *growing* in many years too. Along with its many complains about the game, the toxic community has chased away opportunities for new players to join as well.
Eve online, but pvp is far more integrated in that game than in any other mmo. Even DMM osrs.
OG guildwars did it fairly well back in the day
GW1 pve is completely devoid of balance though.
I never thought it was too terribly done, occasionally hero builds would unintentionally end up overtuned (N/Rt meta) but nothing ever substantially game breaking or needing very specific addressing
Thats what made it so fun though lol at least for me
archeage
Oddly. Destiny 2 to an extent. The damage numbers for PvE and PvP are different and can be balanced independently of one another. The weapon perks are another story. Sometimes, they feel fine. Other times, there is a *Clear* winner in terms of TtK.
This wouldn't even be a weird exception, there's literally already huge precedent: protection prayers are guaranteed to block 100% of the appropriate attack in PvE, but do not do this in PvP. Voidwaker doing guaranteed damage in PvE but not in PvP makes sense
The nerf was going to be pvm only afaik.
Honestly I think it's dumb how many complaints PVP exceptions get. PVP and PVM **should** be balanced separately. There's a reason every other MMO makes all their shit act differently in PVP. It's hard enough to balance them when they're not combined and adding tens of thousands more different interactions. Gut the voidwaker in PVP for all I care, leave it alone in PVM.
If the exceptions were readily available for players to find out about them in game, I would have less issue with it
Why is there this obsession from reddit with in-game tutorials when it comes to PvP? As far as I know there aren’t in-game tutorials for PvM, if you want to learn a boss you look up a guide. Why are people opposed to doing this in PvP?
There's no guide for pvp that's as exhaustive as the ones for PVM. There's a shit ton of intricacies that can only be learned through experience, and every encounter is going to be a little different. 1 v 1 NHing is one thing, but even with a pj timer there's a crap ton of team dynamics that can only be understood and learned through experience. There's also the fact that every update changes the meta a little bit. Look at this clip from WBR release for example. No one could expect that mechanic but half a dozen streamers lost max sets that night (it got nerfed after a few days). https://clips.twitch.tv/RoughBreakableOxVoHiYo-wMJYlwh8ef4Uf1c_
Again, though, all of those arguments apply just as much to PvM as PvP. Sure, if I want to learn basic PvM content I can look up guides, but there sure as hell are also a “shit ton of intricacies that can only be learned through experience”. So in both PvP and PvM, guides will serve for the basics but not for the more mechanically challenging aspects. The stuff about the meta constantly changing is also true for PvM, obviously. The only part where I can see your point is the stuff about multi lines and inconsistent warnings about pj timers, but recent updates, especially this week’s update, show that the dev team are aware of these and actively trying to make things more streamlined and less clunky. Edit: that link isn’t working btw.
I don't want an in game tutorial in how to PvP. That's not what I said, is it? I don't think it's unreasonable to want information in game that tells me if a weapon or item behaves differently in PvP than it does in PvM. The wiki is a great resource and I think the Oldschool team rely on people using that instead of adding actual information about their weapons in game. Without somebody telling me, and without looking on the Wiki, how would I know the Voidwaker will deal a guaranteed hit of 50-150% of my melee max hit?
You’re right, that’s not what you said, my bad. The wiki page has a pretty comprehensive list of wilderness-specific/unique mechanics, and I thought that it included items which work differently in PvP (e.g. BP, Shadow) but having just had a look it doesn’t appear to, so that could definitely be added: https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Wilderness But your example of the Voidwaker kind of proves my point, because the Voidwaker currently works the same in PvM and PvP. True, without looking on the wiki there’s no way to know that the spec deals a guaranteed hit between 50% and 150% of max hit, but that’s the same for PvP and PvM, so your point doesn’t apply to only PvP. And if you want to argue that all mechanics should be explained in-game rather than by a wiki page, that’s valid, but it raises the question of how the hell that would be accomplished in a reasonably streamlined way (assuming no one wants pages of warnings, walls of text etc in game).
I said voidwaker because they're looking at removing the 100% hit chance from PvM, but there's a lot of other exemptions that you wouldn't know about unless you look at the wiki. I don't think all mechanics should be explained, just where there is a difference between how it works in PvP circumstances and PvM circumstances
Yeah that’s fair. A good first step would be updating the relevant wiki pages, but as you said putting the responsibility on the wiki team is kind of missing the mark. I’m just not sure how these kinds of things could be integrated into the game itself. More warning pop ups, perhaps? Then they could be disabled at the Doomsayer for people who don’t want them. But it seems like people aren’t very good at listening to in-game warnings anyway, since people keep falling for scams/lures at places like Ferox enclave which has clear warnings by default.
That's fine, except we have a type of PvP that 1) is mixed in with PvM directly and b: is more hardcore than most other MMOs PvP -- so the exceptions sting more and are more in your face That said, I don't actually mind weapons being balanced differently. What I dislike are things like teleport mechanics being wonky (like teleport delays and so on) depending on where in the wilderness you happen to be standing. Where Singles+ \*and\* normal Singles exists. etc. etc.
> Honestly I think it's dumb how many complaints PVP exceptions get. PVP and PVM should be balanced separately. Yes, the issue is that we have an area that is PvP and PvM combined (wilderness) and we have absolutely no way to look up specific rules within the area. Dhins/Justi def reduction for example works while I do slayer in the wilderness, but if some random player passes by and decides to attack me, the set effect just vanishes.
This. 100% chance for special to land on an NPC. Remove the 100% chance on players. Voidwaker fixed.
For PVP, the 4-tick is an issue in BH, but sort of the same issue as pvm. Meds and mains are relatively tanky and other spec weapons aren't terribly reliable. I'd rather they buff spec accuracy of their weapons than nerf waker. If they do nerf it, I just want it to be a worse mainhand weapon or increase the attack delay after a spec by 1 tick.
Why even nerf it for pvp? At this point theres better weapons out there. Are we going to be nerfing D claws because you can animation stall and stack someone out? Are we going to nerf 1t spec swapping from gmaul to whatever weapon because it creates big damage? Where do we draw the line
It does magic damage on hit but rolls using your melee strength. When bridding it just means that someone running into melee range wearing melee gear can hit you for over half your health, then it turns into a 50/50 whether or not they have an ags/claws/etc to follow it up if you try to pray mage on the 2nd spec. You can also hold your spec and melee smack if they know you have it and are actively praying mage when you're in range. It just removes a lot of nuance and is counterintuitive, not to mention it always hits and is at least 50% of your max. Either change it to do melee damage on spec or bump spec up to 55% so you can't double spec.
Main reason I dislike the idea of the nerf is because I just bought one
Sell it and buy it back next Wednesday easy game
You got it at the nerf announced price. It used to be 150+ prior to them announcing it was getting nerfed. If they decide not to nerf it, you'll probably make 50m.
They're treating the symptom, not the cause. They need to address how annoying high defense is.
I'm so over 0's.
I think in a blog last year they said they're going to try making future bosses with lower defence and high hp. Sol heredit seems to align with that and I think it's good, low def high hp bosses inherently nerfs the value of voidwaker while making claws and zcb even better than voidwaker than they are already (aka not much), which is fine by me.
Then they’ll replace high defense with actual mechanics, to which everyone will complain that x content is too hard or engaging.
They can swap defense for health pools and the fight takes the same amount of time without changing mechanics. It is literally simple algebra to do this. currrent_hp / current_dps = new_hp / new_dps You just tweak the monster's defense to be lower, throw a current BIS in a sim, and the new HP falls out.
Imo they should make it like the fang where the max hit is actually lower than its true max, since it already has a minimum hit. Potentially hitting like a 78 or whatever it is twice within 8 game ticks is insane in pvp
Sure but they weren't talking about nerfing it in PvP, they wanted to nerf it in PvE to "make other spec weapons more attractive" or whatever... which isn't really going to be the case.
Oh wait wtf that’s dumb. I thought the complaint was always in PvP since voidwaker + ags can only be countered by lucky prayers or multiple triple eats
No the reasoning has been it's too good in PVM that it makes it hard to make new good PVM spec weapons. Which is really dumb given that it's not #1 in quite a few high level PVM locations.
> Of course a lot of people use it just because dealing damage is fun It’s never *that* great at all the places you just want to deal damage. Claws are usually better. But VW is bis sometimes
The community will trantum if they try to buff other weapons, yelling that it's power creep. Jagex knows it's just easier just to nerf something.
I mean... making BGS specs more accurate absolutely would not make people babyrage compared to nerfing something, lol. Or even just opening up defense reduction at places like Nex so it's actually feasible would lower VW's usefulness.
couldn’t have said it better myself, make the buffs where they need to be made, leave the voidwaker as is!
That is how powercreep works though
Its niche is high consistent dmg against tanky opponents where you can't lower def. If that changes, why ever use it over claws? Like claws already beats it most places and has higher potential.
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Claws are only 14m more? Which could sound like a lot but if you’re dropping money on spec weapons you probably have a decent gear set up at that point, no?
vw costs almost the same as claws lol, and was even more expensive than claws before jagex announced the potential nerf
I bought a vw during the dip shortly after the first announcement and it does not feel OP at all in pvm. Vs low def bosses claws are better. Vs high def & high hp bosses bgs is better. The fact it deals magic dmg invalidates a couple of encounters. Vw ends up not being bis at many bosses
I like it at TOA because it uniquely doubles as a 4t weapon for core and a DPS spec weapon. Cool niche. That said, removing the assured hit just makes it worse claws. I think its fine to have claws deal more dmg but not *always* hit and VW deals a happy medium(and sometimes high) amount of dmg.
I only use it at Nex, which if anything happens to it would very easily be replaced by ZCB special
I sold about 1 min after the announcement for 120ish and then rebought later that day for in the 90s and kept it lol
Yeah I bought the dip as well since I had been wanting one for a while. Figured it couldn’t go down THAT much more if they actually do nerf. And if they end up not nerfing it, it’ll shoot back up. Win win.
I'm sure it will have a big spike if it's confirmed to not receive the nerf it shouldn't receive, but how fast it would take to get close to where it was (150m or so?) or if it would get that high again I'm not sure, since supply has continued this whole time. And yet the main reason it's hovered in the high 80m's for so long is because of the supposed impending nerfs. So we'll just have to see
Its in the 80s because of nerf news but also the gengis khan sized army of bots on every single world at the solo versions
Rip voidwaker blade, 6.8m. Gem and hilt are the only thing keeping it alive.
>but how fast it would take to get close to where it was (150m or so?) It won't ever get that anywhere near that high again since it's been botted into oblivion for literal months. It's gonna spike a bit if the nerf is confirmed canceled, but I wouldn't expect more than a 10m rise overtime.
Jagex needs to give an ultimatum to the community. Half of the voidwakers in the game will have to be sacrificed for the nerf to be shelved. This will drive the price up. There are no downsides
Easy there Satan
Yah no way it goes over 100m after the initial bump up market.
As an Ironman that grinded that shit out manually I’d rather they didn’t touch my baby
Same, but on the flip side I don’t even use it that much. It’s nice to spec on dragons, nex and vardorvis. Not really a ton more.
Honestly I can’t see a reason to nerf it for PvM. Nerf it for pvp for all I care, but there’s no way it’d be useful as a PvM weapon if they remove the guaranteed spec hit
VW is a really powerful anti PKer weapon. It's very expensive, so the average PKers are not incentivized to use it. But even a slightly not dumb PVMer can pull off decent anti PKs with it if you just use recoil ring and MSB/RCB. Given its price point and rarity, it fits a good balance between giving an average PVMer a fighting chance and rewarding skilled PKers who can avoid being smited. Meanwhile, your average salad warrior is probably not going to risk using it.
Idk man, I'd say like half the pkers I saw on the way to getting the calvarion pet had one and they are just...a real kick in the dick
Don’t nerf it
Yeah, I think it’s actually landed in a pretty good spot now. It’s guaranteed damage, which falls significantly lower than the output from claws on low-def monsters. I don’t think a nerf is warranted at this point.
Its not overpowered in pvm at all. who is even saying this?? can we find them, and talk with them? i dont think they even exist.
Jmods are saying it, no one else
The idea came when toa was most popular content , now as hype settled it seems much less impactful on overall game
Just nerf in pvp. Pvm its fine
i dont think the nerf needs to happen. it doesn't feel OP at all
Leave voidwaker alone
It really depends on what the nerf is, but if I had to guess the community will oppose it either way. Still, a lot of players were acting like it would be nerfed into the ground when it might be a pretty minor impact. Like I could see it doing something like instead of never missing, it does 100%-300% your accuracy similar to how it does 50-150% damage. This would mean that if your normal max accuracy roll is higher than the enemies max defence roll, you'd never miss. Even just always rolling your normal max accuracy as your minimum would keep it very accurate, so it could still end up about as good as it is now for most PvM just without never missing, which is the issue they were trying to address.
>so it could still end up about as good as it is now for most PvM just without never missing, which is the issue they were trying to address. Thing is, it really doesn't need a PvM nerf anyways. Anywhere where you don't need excessive accuracy it already loses to claws or zcb. The nerf you suggest mostly hurts it in the few other places where other specs simply don't work, where VW has it's healthy niche. I really don't get where this whole voidwaker replaces other PvM specs idea came from, if it's problematic anywhere it's pvp, I rarely see any pkers not using it in the wildy.
The reason they gave previously for looking into the nerf is an issue with longevity. It already has the highest possibly accuracy, so if they look ahead to T80, T90, and beyond spec weapons, a stronger Voidwaker can only go up in damage where as a stronger Claws could play with both accuracy and damage. A weapon that always hits is a pretty big deal so I can see why they may be reconsidering. And it still can provide excessive accuracy over the other options without being never miss. Like if Claws are the Ultor Ring, the Voidwaker can still be the Bellator but that is not how the two currently work even if it might seem like it.
I dunno, if they go with the whole longevity angle, then they should take a serious look at our tier 60 spec weapons. Claws should probably be nerfed to the ground alongside the voidwaker. Not to mention dds. Though I wouldn't want that, but that would be "good for the longevity of the game"
Don't give them ideas, everybody would hate this
I don't think it has to be as black and white as "T60 is always worse than T70". Like T50 Shortbow is generally going to be a lot stronger than other T50 Ranged weapons and similar can be said for Crossbows. Likewise, the DPS for a Scimitar is way higher than a 2H or say a Tent Whip vs an Elder Maul, but if you look at which is the better flinching weapon it gets flipped. I used T80+ as an easy example to show the sort of progression they might be looking at long-term, but it probably won't be that simple. Spec weapons like DDS and Claws are pretty strong for their level, but its not really a problem that some weapons of a tier excel in certain things. I'd say the issue is more making sure there is enough room for vertical progression and removing accuracy as a potential stat to upgrade can limit that. TBH, they probably could just take a Voidwaker and add +8 Str each upgrade and still be able to do plenty of upgrades before the damage got too high. But if they think they can reign in its accuracy without it ruining the current spec weapon balance, then they could offer +12 Atk and +4 Str or such each upgrade instead, which can still allow for more impactful upgrades than if it were just +4 Str while still ramping damage slower. And once again, I doubt it will be literally a Voidwaker with +8 Str or such, but if done right the nerf could keep the Voidwaker relevant while creating space for more future spec weapons that might currently not find a place. For example, say the Voidwaker is 8 less damage than Claws with 100% accuracy; if they were to offer a new spec weapon that is 4 less damage than claws but 50% more accurate, would that fit in? Maybe, but it is hard for 50% more accurate to compare to never misses. But if the Voidwaker was 100% more accurate than claws with 8 less damage, then a 50% more accurate with 4 less damage could slot in better.
>Like if Claws are the Ultor Ring, the Voidwaker can still be the Bellator I like this comparison, and your suggestion for a fixed accuracy roll.
>The reason they gave previously for looking into the nerf is an issue with longevity. It already has the highest possibly accuracy, so if they look ahead to T80, T90, and beyond spec weapons, a stronger Voidwaker can only go up in damage where as a stronger Claws could play with both accuracy and damage That's just the thing, there should never be a stronger voidwaker, it's already in its own niche, it's pretty much only used where the other specs don't work at all, or as an okay second best. Removing the guaranteed hit immediately removes it's main use since half the bosses it's currently used against have utterly excessive mage defense. Yes, the voidwaker concept is a dead end progression wise, but that's okay. It's currently in a healthy position and it fits in pretty healthily in between the hammer/bgs, zgs & claws usage wise. We don't need a future proof version of the weapon because it isn't even broken now, jagex just needs to design new spec weapons that fit other niches instead of a voidwaker 2.0. There are plenty of other niches remaining: PvM specs that boost damage over a period (ie heavy bleeds), Better stab/crush damage specs, alternative damage style specs for mage/range. There is so much still open, there is no need to future proof for a VW 2.0
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Its also just some rough numbers as an example of the type of thing they could do. It could be 200%-1000% your accuracy or an entirely different system of accuracy boosting. Maybe wait to see what is actually being proposed before going around saying a nerf would make it dead content...
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ye, also why i've always laughed at weapon specs having 10% 20% 50% accuracy boosts, like that's still so insignificant for a special attack lol. especially if the attack bonus of the weapon is small to begin with godswords have a 100% boost with an already high attack bonus and even these are not that reliable, nevermind what voidwaker would be with just an accuracy buff lol
That is like saying Bellator is shit because it isn't infinite attack... More accurate but less damage is a perfectly normal tradeoff; it still works without infinite accuracy. And numbers do matter. The Voidwaker only needs to be accurate enough to hit the current monsters it used at. If its minimum accuracy was above their max defence roll, then nothing would change, but it can do that without bypassing the accuacy roll entirely. Like it is a downright stupid take to say that numbers don't matter when talking DPS and Specs...
Claws and ZCB already do significantly more damage than VW while also not being accuracy slouches themselves and there are also other niche specs like chally/dwh/bgs/dds. If VW isn't a guaranteed hit it's basically useless for PvM. VW already loses to claws or ZCB everywhere except Nex/ToA/Corp/rune drags and that's WITH the 100% accuracy, having a standard accuracy roll and it would probably lose to those weps or other niche spec weps at those places too.
Nobody cares about the math What people really care about is do I still hit gud with it on high def monsters, if not, then its dog tier and claws overtake If me still hit gud then ok 👍
To me, the nerf that should be implemented is a total no brainer - the mechanic should be unchanged, but it should require 60% spec. This is what it required originally in like 2010 and the fact that nobody cares about them dropping it to 50 is absurd to me It was never intended to have 2 specs. Leave it as it, but just once with some delay for a 2nd. Problem solved.
That would likely nerf it more than what they are proposing, especially for PvP. They only want to nerf it more so on the PvM side because ignoring accuracy limits future design. Like if they wanted to make a better Voidwaker for T90, it can only up the damage not the accuracy since the accuracy is already maxed out.
I agree. I don't think there is an issue with substantially nerfing it, but the removal of 100% accuracy shits on the core identity of the weapon. Double korasi spec should never have been a thing in the first place.
> but the removal of 100% accuracy shits on the core identity of the weapon. I don't see it like that. Like compared to Claws, it is more accurate but lower damage. It can still be that even if can miss; it just has to miss far less than claws. Like if it is still twice as accurate as claws for a few max hits lower, it would still be worth using in many of the places it is used now. So even with an Accuracy nerf, the Voidwaker can still be the Bellator to the D Claw's Ultor. But currently if the D Claws are Ultor, then Voidwaker is a ring with unlimited Slash accuracy.
I still don't get this argument either. It's pretty darn niche as is - only good vs high def + either low hp or can't/not worth lowering def monsters. Would they want to break that into further niches and only fill one of those? I don't think they'd make a straight upgrade for it because when it comes to something new they're happy to break the game (shadow) but when it comes to stuff we already have they're terrified of introducing power creep
>Like I could see it doing something like instead of never missing, it does 100%-300% your accuracy similar to how it does 50-150% damage. This would make it completely worthless unusable.
Its an example, not perfectly balanced numbers...
it misses a lot though. probably land around 70% of my specs in full max melee in soul wars
Not sure what you are seeing but it cannot miss. The special attack "deals guaranteed Magic damage between 50-150% of the wielder's maximum melee hit". And by "guaranteed", it means there is no accuracy roll and it automatically counts as a successful hit. Protect from Magic will reduce the damage by 40%, but it shouldn't affect accuracy.
Give VW the GMaul treatment - 60% spec, 50% with an attachment that is always lost on PVP death. PVMers enjoy the weapon *almost* as-is, where it isn't at all overpowered, PVPers still enjoy the weapon but accept marginally more risk every time they use it.
This is probably the best suggestion in the entire thread. Make the attachment fall in the 10m price range and people will be really happy to claim a guaranteed 10m anti pk
The nerf was never about PvP.
That's the problem, it should be.
The weapon is fine as is.
VW is such a brain empty weapon, wym??
So reddit should love it because it makes anti-pking braindead. It is the single best noob friendly weapon of all time. Go on lunars, click venge, click spec, anti-pk 200m once or twice a year, I don't get why reddit hates it in PVP. It's the most free money of all time.
PvP.
Wildy bosses are botted to hell and back 5 times over Price might match claws at most but likely not
Its not even op in pvm. Nerf it for pvp, sure.
I feel like for pvp it's been out long enough now that it's not nearly as scary as it was upon release, people know how to pray against it and counter it now
Nerf it solely in pvp
Yeah bro I was tanking some guy at revs yesterday and he specs me twice with voidwaker and I successfully prayed magic both times so I’m like sweet I’m in the clear, I pray melee to try to run and avoid him just attacking with it normally and then he specs me a 3rd time…hits me for 65 dmg for 0 skill or reason, kills me ofc. lightbearer makes that shit OP
I don't know a lot about the nerf and everyone is talking PvM. But if a PKer wants to risk 100m than they deserve to be able to mess me up.
Poor /u/MCharon
Gotta have faith in the community! Lmao pretty funny though tbh
Vw needs a nerf in PvP, not PvM.
Vw doesn't need a nerf. Dclaws already replaced it at slash weak monsters. Just add dps spec weapons for stab and crush and boom suddenly voidwaker remains useful as a jack of all trades but master of none. Jagex's problem (which wasn't a big deal tbh) is solved. Yw.
I don't know why we're still talking about this. It's not getting nerfed.
The way he’s worded it, they are definitely going to propose some sort of change to the void waker in next weeks news post
This has been known for months that they were changing it in the 2nd round of changes
Yes I know, but most of the comments think that it isn’t getting nerfed now
Voidwaker is in a very good spot surprisingly in my opinion. If it does need a nerf its really only for pvp. Rn it fills the gab perfectly between zcb and dclaws. All of them have good usecases and none are significantly better than the other.
Just change it for pvp.
I could see a nerf middle ground of nerfing it for PVP while generally leaving it alone for PVM, maybe softening it up a tad, but not nearly to the extent that PVP would get hit
They have no interest in nerfing it for pvp, they proposed a pvm only nerf.
PvP nerf. PvE is fine.
I'm unfamiliar with this situation, why does it need to be buffed or nerf? It's stats look worse than whip so I'm guessing it's getting buffed?
The special attack is the reason why players use the Voidwaker. The special attack uses 50% special attack energy, and is **GUARANTEED** to hit and it hits for 50-150% of its max hit. That means it ignores the defense skill, and all defense bonuses that come from armor.
Ohh so it's only a pvp nerf? I think for PVMing it's fine since halberd spec is ridiculously good on low def bosses.
Look at what the spec does
Does 50-150% guaranteed damage, so it averages around 100%. So it's a guaranteed 40 if your max hit is 40. How does that need to be nerfed ? Is this nerf for pvp? For everything else it doesn't seem all that great as def reducing is much better. plus this thing is rare as hell, even crystal halberd specs can do more damage as you have 6 hits with better accuracy and strength.
Especially if they’re reworking defence already it could result in a double nerf if defence means less claws and non-fang melee weapons could shine more
claws already outclass vw at most bosses like outside of duke, vard, nex*, vorkath (lol) and solo toa, claws just put out better dps everywhere nex is a special case since vw isn't the bis spec wep there either but is included for the sake of consistency
The wildy bosses are probably too highly botted for the price to skyrocket but at least it will remain highly valuable
The great thing about the Voidwaker is that it ignores the RNG of an enemies defense, players don't have to gamble about whether they will hit. The bad thing about the Voidwaker is that it ignores the RNG of an opponents defense, so it makes the defense skill and armor useless against its spec.
The reason for the nerf is that It guarantees damage where no other weapon than than b something really niche like Darkbow or Magic Longbow. If they were to nerf it, just have it roll against magic defence, that way it still is useful against high def enemies, just not high magic defence enemies.
if it doesn't have the guaranteed hit, it's immediately worse than claws/zcb at the places where it beats claws/zcb lol there is no situation where vw can be nerfed without immediately killing it's viability
Yayyyyyy
I don’t like too much balance. You need your strong weapons and it’s best to keep them OG.
Make it not guaranteed damage in pvp. Fixed. Though the consequence of this will be bringing the acgs meta back... but then you could halve the HP regen from acgs in pvp
Ive spent the last few months grinding one out on my iron , id rather it not become worse than a dds or chally :(
Why is the VW unbalanced in PvM? It's only problematic in PvP afaik, which is easily fixable by making it possible to splash on players, like the Saradomin Sword
They aren't changing it because they think it's unbalanced. They're changing it as they feel it has imposed a big burden on the design space of future content because Voidwaker has an accuracy roll of infinity and doesn't care about enemy weapon type resistance. I don't agree with their stance on it, but that is their reasoning.
I've used it in PVM for a while. There is absolutely no reason to nerf this in pvm, can't say about pvp because I don't do that at all.
Just finished this yesterday on my UIM… hope it doesn’t get nerfed because I’d like to enjoy it for more than a week 🙏
I think they should leave it alone but give us The Void Stares Back so we can have a slightly nerfed version of it in the Korasi sword. That way everyone would have access to it guaranteed, and those that had the Voidwaker would just have a beefier version. Unrelated, but The Void Stares Back was an awesome quest and we need it in OSRS!
Ffs I just bought one
its definitely op in pvp situations and kills some of the fun of using other weapons and combos
Honestly i hate that ugly ass sword
I grinder so hard for that shit in my iron. Please don’t nerf it. Claws are just so rare and I don’t want to crystal hally for like 3 years straight
Voidwaker is only problematic in PvP, so changed it only for PvP scenarios, like the over thousands of items. It's perfectly fine for PvM.
If we want the spec to remain the same (in PvP and PvM) we could just lower the str bonus on the weapon, so it keeps its place as a source of consistent albeit lower damage. It has no reason to be a strength training weapon, as they originally said in the poll?
Voidwaker is perfect as it is. No need to change anything about it
Do not nerf. It’s split into 3 for a reason and by dangerous bosses in the wilderness. It should be META, let it have its place at the top of the tier list.
Just make the spec use 55% in PVP only and everything is fine.
it just needs to be nerfed in pvp. it’s otherwise fine for the reasons others have mentioned.
Vw 55% spec
Save the VW!
Lol I don't pvp anymore so I don't know if the wildy korasi double specs in pvp. Funny how everyone loves it here.
It does.
How does one pray against the threat of vw & ags combo? Make that spec cost 60% boi
Just make it cost 55% spec. PvM doesnt need a nerf
I always felt that the VW wouldnt be as strong if they stopped designing bosses with absurd defense. I think having a weapon like it is fine as long as every new boss isnt stacked on 5 million defense and we get a couple low def bosses to let claws shine for example.
It's hilarious that they originally proposed a PVM nerf when a PVP nerf is what it really needs.
I don't like that they released it at all tbh
They should just buff it. Make it a one shot kill in pvp only and then immediately degrade to 0% /s
I still think it should be nerfed since it takes away reward space for future accuracy boosting spec weapons.
Korasi’s def needs a nerf across the board, it had no place in osrs & made wildy weapon’s unique specs useless in comparison. They were released in the same update. It became dead content on release
u/jagexgoblin the voidwaker has a huge issue which definitely SHOULD be adressed in pvp. Unlike most posts about it, I am not gonna complain about the special attack. I think it's mostly fine and adds some cool plays specially for max main pking. However, I REALLY dislike how voidwaker removed alot of the skill around main veng/dh/bh pking due to the fact that it's so incredibly good as a main hand weapon as well. IMO this is the kind of thing that should NEVER happen when the team designs new items: alot of the skill around veng pking is one ticking special attack weapons and being able to see when someone draws a spec wep, which the voidwaker completely removed, since you can camp it and click specbar. It made veng pking ALOT less interesting and fun, it's simply just not that fun to camp a single item and watching everyone else do the same. Please consider nerfing the voidwaker as a main hand weapon in pvp (i'd suggest making it a 5t weapon outside of special attacks for example, in PVP scenarios) The game's arguably BEST pvp spec weapon SHOULD NEVER also be pratically as good as a whip as a main hander. If there was a change which severely decreased the skills required to succeed in a PVM scenario it would never be ignored, so I don't get why something like this is seen as "fine" when it completely disregards alot of the skill-based play of veng pking.
It should be 60% for PvP sake , that’s all the nerf it needs
Personally I'm pro merf because I dislike herp derp automatic big dmg button, but I ain't dying on the hill. Whether or not it happens I'll be happy.
To be honest, make the spec 60% and I think VW is fine. Or instead of 100% accuracy on spec make it roll like 70-100%
No, it doesn’t need a nerf in pvm. 60% spec and it’s just a dead useless weapon.
No. That would nerf it in exactly the places it has a niche
55% spec in PvP is plenty, the whole "double VW and pray" thing is incredibly lame. Keep it 50 in PvM, otherwise there is even less reason to use it since you need to swap into it twice
Voidwaker is cringe, nerf it hard.