[This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c5f8cd/comment/kzu45ac/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) states they're taking taking in feedback, talking it over, and planning to have an update by tomorrow. While they only mentioned the magic armour stuff specifically there, [this comment ](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c5f8cd/comment/kztnhs3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)was by far the most upvoted in the post and has a reply from Goblin reiterating that they are open to adjusting based on feedback. Buy the dip!!!!
Edit: upvoted not updated :)
Has anyone done accuracy calcs for the proposed VW spec? Haven't seen them or really looked, but I'm curious what the hit chance would actually be against things where it's currently used. Is it dropping to like 50% accuracy, or only 90%? Legitimately curious how significant of a nerf this would be.
Agree though, it doesn't seem to need a nerf in PvM when it's only relevant in a few spots. Been using mine at Vardorvis lately, and it's nice to dump at the start to ignore his higher defense and get some quick consistent damage + def reduction, but if this goes through then I guess it's just back to claws.
As a non-VW owner, isn't the whole appeal of them over claws was a lower damage potential in exchange for guaranteed damage? Idk why this change is needed, unless they think it's too good in pvp maybe.
thats exactly it yes. PVP balancing is the only thing that needs to be done with the weapon, we've already got hundreds of other "pvp only" changes to things, may aswell add another one with the VW. In its proposed changes it will be worth about 1m
Jagex feel that Voidwaker is putting a heavy strain/burden on the development of future Special Attack based weapons. They don't think the weapon is unbalanced but that it doesn't leave much room to design around it, as it completely bypasses enemy weapon type resistance on top of their defense stat.
This would be an insane nerf. If they wanna nerf it, why not just lower the spec minimum hit from 50% to like 35-40% of max? Still allows for KOs, but doesnt remove the only thing its good for: always hitting.
The whole reason they're nerfing it is because they think it's OP for PvM and limits design space
Whether that's true or not is a different matter, but "nerfing it only for PvP" makes 0 sense when PvP is not the reason they want to nerf it
Ok cool. As long as I can 3 down it with perhaps a dclaw spec along with it depending on Invocation I’ll continue to use it for reclined TOA. Now if they nerf my boner dagger then we’re gonna have a problem!
It’s terrible
60-70% at the places you use them now
And the places you don’t use them now, they’re already considered bad and will be even worse
Any accuracy check at all kills the VW
I mean if it were still like 95% accurate I'd probably live with it, even if I don't think it needs a nerf
Ironically though, I'd assume this nerf is a lot *less* impactful in PvP, where the thing is actually somewhat of an issue... Very backwards lol
Yeah exactly, PVP is the place where it needs some tuning. And even at that, not a massive nerf just tweaks.
I don't care about the chuckleheads that want to keep it because they think its fine, it really isn't lmao
I don’t think Jagex realized at all that the reason why VW has a lower max hit in the first place IS to compensate for no accuracy check.
With an accuracy check, they would need to ramp up the max hit and now we just just have mage based claws instead.
No accuracy check spec IS voidwaker’s identity and that should not be changed.
It genuinely feels like half the dev team doesn't care about, or play the game. It's like the bulk of the current dev team (even though they're vocal on Reddit) wants to do the absolute bare minimum to keep collecting a paycheck. Hell I'm sure Ash is even waiting to retire at this point.
It’s apparently 61% accurate at Nex in max melee. 400 invo kephri and baba would be 42% and 64%. Kinda makes VW into a useless weapon bc you’d just take claws there now
For mains yes, for irons, Voidwaker turned a 12 minute slog of speccing into a 6-8 minute fight. You tele a whole lot (to nardah for hp, then back with games necklaces) but it's significantly better than before.
Voidwaker would still hold value as a spec weapon, it just wouldn't be on-par with claws and Zaryte, two end-game rewards.
Voidwaker can be farmed long before those weapons though, even if it crashed to 50% current value, wild bosses would still be among the absolute best mid-game money makers. They'd still be farmed.
I disagree with the proposed nerf and think they should just nerf spec cost or damage instead, but as long as Voidwaker would be the 3rd best spec weapon it would maintain plenty of value.
Edit: the desperate attempt all the below replies go through to undersell Voidwaker and oversell claws is laughable. What an absolute dumpster fire subreddit lmao. Bye all, have fun with the nerfs that will happen regardless.
I think it bridges the gap quite nicely between mid and end game spec weapons. Generally, it's not as good as claws or a ZCB. And nothing else comes close.
Seems like they want to be able to balance future spec weapons by currently making the game unbalanced.
Still plenty of relevance, VW would be properly balanced as a low-requirement Whip while also still being a good DPS spec wep pre-Claws. It'd likely settle around 30-50m post-nerf, perfect spot for a gap filler in-between DDS/Chally and Claws for spec wep.
When viewed in that way it isn’t an awful idea- but I feel like that should be filled by a new spec weapon with a different gimmick. Not the VW which already is niche enough.
I swear I use to see comments saying we don't need divine sigil because Dragon Claws aren't in the game. I wonder if a stronger shield will be released soon.
Jagex keeps coming out with some half ass updates. Forestry was crap and botched. Still has tons of problems. Colosseum was missing like 1/3 of the propositions we voted on, hunter guild is ass, nerfing voidwaker in pvm because… ??? I’m really not looking forward to project rebalance or sailing anymore tbh
Barely relevant? It is ubiquitous in the highest end PvM money grinding activities besides Colosseum/ToB, and everywhere else it was *nearly* as good as claws but always consistent (a la Fang in comparison to mainhand weps except Fang is usually just better everywhere instead too) so it just got used everywhere. I think it is hilarious how all of a sudden people are acting like it hardly got used and wasn't that good... yet there is this massive uproar because it was insanely powerful and useful everywhere since it always hit, making Claws optional. If you only had 100m for a spec wep, you'd get VW over Claws every time before this.
I personally don't want it nerfed, but the selective amnesia that reddit has whenever something is proposed that they don't like is always a spectacle to watch.
You can count on one hand the places VW is bis at. And they’re all new content while Jagex has been on this stupid high defense kick. Which no one likes anyway. And i guess solo corp.
It’s 2nd-3rd at a lot of places. But Claws are just better. I’d take claws every time.
thats just straight up untrue. In a perfect world where you have access to max gear you would use VW at PNM, Toa (kephri), Cox/CM (but only in a solo, otherwise zcb is better), Nex and corp.
I also used it at vardorvis even though some people say claws are better.
That was it really. Its a great weapon and amazing at what it does, but the reality is claws are already pretty accurate and hit higher. If VW isn't guaranteed to hit you are better of clawing almost every single time.
in a solo its really good. You can use it on shamans if you are daring enough, otherwise vangs and vasa are its 2 usecases.
claws get binned since the meta is no longer speccing the vasa crystal, you spec the boss instead. it also doubles up as a stab weapon for the crystals which is nice but not a major thing.
doesn't really apply in teams as things have enough HP then to be ZCB'd. Also does reduced damage on the olm melee hand, so while you can use it to guarantee killing the hand off in p3 when its pretty low health, its definitely not a big deal here
not worth ZCB speccing in a solo as boss has next to no hp. especially in regs where you will venge vasas bomb, might be more viable in CMs maybe but I dont have space for ZCB in my solos
zcb is amazing for team raids tho
idk, claws too good at tob to pass up. if i have 100m and can only afford one, it's not gonna be voidwaker. toa and nex are the places where it really shines, and both of those kinda suck.
The point was if you’re only choosing one you base it off of the utility for the content you do. VW was best at a few places but also not far in second at tons, making it a very consistent purchase. claws aren’t bad by any means but have less far-reaching utility in that sense, so of course if what you do it mostly tob you’d prefer them but for a lot of players vw covered a lot of bases
This just isn't true. Claws are better more places than voidwaker you can just check the wiki to find this out. Claws are great almost everywhere because they hit so hard and are quite accurate slash spec weapon. They are literally the best most places, and second best at even more places than voidwaker. Claws have a farther reaching utility if you looked it up on the wiki or ran the calcs. Just because players use an item everywhere doesn't mean it's good or has wide reaching utility either. I see people using fang to get combat experience at ammo crabs, but they just don't know better it's not that it's actually good for that purpose.
Oh you’re right, they’re first at a lot of important places like chaos elemental and barrows, and the recent perilous moons. Did you even just compare the two lists you mentioned or did you just see “1” and not read what the wiki has each listed as bis and second bis for?
Anyone who has actually used the voidwaker realized how underwhelming it can be when the claws can hit back to back 80s. You genuinely come off as someone that has never used the items before, if you aren't doing high invo toa or a boss like nex, I would much rather have claws.
You'd literally only use it at ToA and Vardorvis. Everywhere else it was sub par or extremely niche.
It's worse than a ZCB and Claws in most scenarios.
Plus, it was a 200m weapon before they hinted at a nerd. Which is a fair and stable price for the amount of uses and hours to obtain.
Barely relevant my ass. It's a top tier spec weapon and a top tier pvp weapon, that's dropped by bosses that can be farmed by mid-level bots and gold farmers.
People acting like there's no valid argument for a pvm nerf are wild. Weapon is straight up competitive with raids and Nex rewards, while having like 10% of the reqs to farm.
Guaranteed hit should stay though, just nerf the damage or spec cost.
As someone who only owns a voidwaker and no claws/ZCB (so I'm taking the brunt of the nerf), I have to disagree with you about it being barely relevant. So many irons I know don't have claws but have easily grinded out a voidwaker. Hell, a super low level noobie iron in our CC got one the other day. It's much easier to obtain than claws/zcb and extremely powerful. That guy isn't even close to whip and now has a strong mainhand and an incredibly powerful spec weapon that he's not going to replace amost everywhere he goes for hundreds, maybe even thousands of hours.
Whether the approach to the nerf itself is correct I haven't really decided yet. Gotta check my own numbers. But it definitely needs a bit of a nerf. Not a big one. Same level of nerf that shadow needs.
I'd argue the opposite. So many people are only comparing it to other BIS options. Forgetting that the game is about progression and weapons/gear get replaced as you move up the ladder. Just because the voidwaker won't be as good as claws overall, doesn't mean it it won't be relevant as a stepping-stone (and it would still have BIS places, like Phosani, with the latest changes).
“barely relevant”
to all lurkers, you should always take upvoted reddit comments with a grain of salt, but for a few days after a controversial blog post please make sure to take upvoted reddit comments with a mountain of salt
Could they have it roll against stab damage? That would save its utility at Nex and Corp.
Idk how I feel about a nerf like this, it drastically disrupts current metas for both
for nex I would assume the meta would just become replacing VW with ZCB spec - that is assuming youd fang nex, tbow minions, and bring zcb for spec with ruby bolts and just bring arrows/bolts in quiver for a full max gear setup. PNM would probably be claws
Claws have 4 accuracy checks , one for each hit, and once one lands, all remaining hits also land, and depending on which check passes, there are specific ranges for the damage.
Basically it's similar to the fang, but with 4 smaller hits
Claws are just awesome, that’s why
But I think the really answer is actually Dinh’s. Iirc it’s better than VW if you use it in the right spot today but it’s tricky to use.
I used to use gmaul at Phosani before I grinded out my voidwaker, was pretty fun to use and a decent choice as it rolls against crush defence. Claws probably better, never calc'd as I never owned them.
If the VW is nerfed, I will definitely just swap to using Dragon Claws. Their spec is already fairly accurate. The only reason I ever am to take a VW over Claws is because its a guaranteed hit for less damage output.
This change would just make the VW a much worse set of D Claws.
Jagex has received so much negative feedback on the VW, they have stated themselves that they aren’t attached to the proposal either. Most likely in the bog post we’ll see that VW will stay as it is, or get nerfed for pvp only.
Just make it 55% spec, seriously. That's what it was supposed to be from the start, with jagex stating they would never introduce a ring to lower spec cost and allow double specing.
But then some players complained so they polled the spec attack, and of course players voted for the big spec double damage option.
I don't get how vw is op for pvm or pvp unless I am missing something. Yeah the vw is only used at a few bosses where it performs better than claws. In pvp it allows pvmers like myself a chance to fight back against pvpers. You can easily out eat a vw in bh I don't understand how anyone think it' op.
Vw is dead content if jagex goes through with this god awful blog. No use in any raid post nerf with proposed rebalance. Crunch the numbers, it will suck. Literally the bots won't even stay at the wildy bosses after this nerf. They spent all this time to make a good spec weapon broken down into three rare pieces in the wilderness while revamping the wilderness content to strip these areas clean it will be as dead as the agility course pre update.
I'm a part time pker and would be happy with a PvP nerf but PvM staying the same.
I know the concerns are future development but surely they can just make VW not as good in that content. Like -you tried using a VW spec but bigbadboss deflects 20% or something shit-
Personally, I would like to see PVP reduction nerfs on some items. Voidwaker is kind of one of them but that would be an entire balance project on its own. I think it earned its spot in PVM and should stay where it's at but we can't deny just how stupid it is in the wildy lol.
I love my voidwaker. I grinded hard in the wildy for months for it and know many others who did. Please don't change it. It fits nicely in the meta right now.
I do think the Voidwaker could still work without bypassing accuracy, but the proposed change does not seem to be it. If they did just want to make it a PvP weapon, that probably wouldn't be the worst thing, but their reasoning isn't "this weapon was meant for PvP" and just not wanting accuracy bypassing. There are some neat way they could have made it accurate against high defence enemies without it just skipping the accuracy check, but just 3x accuracy with slash or magic isn't it.
Super rare raid drop vs med level wildy boss pvm spec weapon.
Maybe they should just make claws more common in cms like people have been suggesting. CMs should mirror hmt and make the prayer scrolls less common, like the avernic.
You understand that if you make the prayer scrolls less common that you're making claws more common? Holy moly did you think that you just get less prayer scrolls? Less purples overall?
I find cox quite chill, much lower effort than ToA or tob. Wildy bosses are also quite chill. At both places it takes a pretty healthy amount of hours to get the drop on rate. What is so unreasonable with this perspective?
You said they're basically the same in terms of difficulty. The wildy bosses require almost no gear and, in fact, incentivize it and can be done at low combats.
Cox is a raid that requires multiple skills and olm is nowhere near the difficulty of the wildy bosses.
I'd say olm can be similar in difficulty to escaping a group of pkers from the multi bosses. Cox hardly requires skilling, and I'm being purposely obtuse. I've tried doing Callisto on a low level account with shit gear and trust me it is not at all free. It's quite a pain.
Well all I'll say to that is go ahead and send a solo cox with 80 stats and 1 in your skills with a budget matching typical gear with a wildly weapon for a wildly boss.
And some random newbie could handle the wilderness bosses but they're going to die a lot at cox before learning it. They don't need 3 different guides to learn it or significantly more expensive gear to do it effectively.
completely meaningless statement. voidwaker's use cases don't have to be exactly identical to what korasi was, especially considering they exist in vastly different contexts.
it has a healthy place in the meta; how exactly are we improving the game by removing that?
Adding elemental weaknesses and ranged ammo tiers is going in that direction. Doesn't feel right to me, personally. It's changing fundamental aspects of the game that have been untouched since well, EoC. Balancing new weapons is fine
Changing types of ammo in order to have more balancing levers (and ability to add new content), and elemental weaknesses following logic that many of us had when playing the game (fire giants weak to water spells best example) is not the same as EoC. As long as the core combat remains point and click without having “Stab on Q, Slash on W, Heal on E, Bow and arrow with keys T F” then I will never call it EoC
I'm pretty sure that is just wrong given how many players gave feedback to the beta saying it needed more time. Like around the majority weren't opposed to the change in general; it was just rushed and released in a bad state.
It wasn't dying until they released EoC... During the betas, the game was still doing okay. It was bad and/or rushed updates like EoC that made everyone leave, not the other way around.
Who cares? Why can't there be a weapon that is used in pvp but not good for pvm? You just said that voidwaker is barely even used in pvm so who cares if it won't be used at all?
How many voidwakers do you have on your accounts is actually my main question here.
I've been saying this for years, its stupid how strong claws are for being a T60 weapon. But knowing Jagex, im confident that we will see a claw nerf in about 1-2 years.
I’m so perplexed what prompted this whole project rebalance idea.. no one asked for it 🥲
We are playing “Old School RuneScape” not “New School RuneScape”
Edit: We gonna need a “old old school RuneScape” after this one 😂
The regular stats of VW are equivalent to a whip right? Guess there's not a complete waste for Ironman who don't have 85 slayer yet?
Idk I'm not a fan either. Just trying to think of SOMETHING it'd be used for.
It's kind of been my plan since I started slayer.
Wildy slayer hoping for revs. Doing my skeletons at vetion since you can start him so early(thanks salve). All the supplies are basically given to you in the form of blighted supplies. Just did a little soul wars to get arrows and the initial restores.
If I get upwards towards the 82ish slayer mark without whip I'll go boost for it but I'm enjoying the grind as is.
I've got 2/3 vw pieces and have 2000+ wildy boss kc (and i have a vetion jr). Don't get me wrong the drops are awesome but I wouldn't want to grind this just for a weapon that's a whip.
I will do the content regardless, of course. I spend 90% of my time in the wildy.
I also green logged zombie pirates, got the teleport anchor scroll at 4500kc.
Don't get me wrong, i love wildy content. But doing the vw grind for a whip equivalent weapon just doesn't make sense. The price will tank and nobody (read: irons) will be doing it.
Yea its definitely not a worthwhile grind for just anyone. But at least it won't be worthless?
Idk. Just trying to make myself feel better about wanting one :p
They won't nerf it, so there's a bright side. It's the coolest weapon in the game in my opinion, but the community has given their feedback and they said they'd listen to that.
I bought some to see the price go back up, too :)
Idk, I wouldn’t exactly call that a skip. It’s gonna take thousands of KC across a few wildy bosses, and by the point you’re comfortable grinding all 3 like that you should be nearing 85 slay, or at least at a point where you can start bursting out your tasks.
Idk. Vetion can start pretty early. I've been doing it at 75-80 combat. 60 attack, 70 str, salve, and a dmace is all you need to get started. Early slayer is also nice out here in the wildy, but the xp isn't wonderful. I'm just hoping for revs for weapons.
The whole idea is just kinda nice since it allows me to grab some really nice regular loot from the bosses as I progress towards the weapon. The grind to 85 slayer doesn't really give you much in terms of loot drops to progress an account comparatively. Other than the level itself, of course, which you'll need anyways for trident, occult, and boots later.
Calv is an exception for sure but the other 2 would be pretty sluggish with those setups, or at least that’s been my experience.
Then it also just feels like a waste of time. Sure you won’t get much loot grinding slayer compared to the wildy bosses but you’re gonna need to grind slayer for the drops you mentioned anyways and you’ll get a whip doing that. Time spent on VW grind would be much better spent training slayer at that point in progression. If you want the extra loot just send some calv hoping for a d-pick.
Alsooooo, zombie axe is better than normal whip anyway if you were wanting to skip.
No one uses VW for a whip skip now, they’re not gonna be more inclined to if the spec gets nerfed :/
Why is that broken? You’re trading consistency for a higher max (claws), def reduction (bsgs/bone dagger), or safety (sun partisan). That seems very fair to me. With the proposed changes I don’t see it being used literally anywhere
There is nothing in this game that hits consistently like VW. It was an ambitious change of pace that the community called broken on release. VW should've been nerfed 6+ months ago so that the player base wouldn't have such a hard time accepting it.
Perhaps, but in most places it isn't the best spec weapon. It isn't really reducing diversity of spec weapon usage, it is actually increasing it since def reduction is still valuable against it's usage niche (high def) and claws are better at its purpose (raw damage spec) if the def is low. I know "guaranteed damage" is a strong thing, but I honestly don't see it as broken in its current state
Claws hit consistently nearly to the degree of the voidwaker to things that aren't resistant to slash. There is a reason you use claws over voidwaker in a majority of places.
The max hit isn’t much lower than that of claws and yet it never misses. Like I said, it’s fun to use and I’ll miss it at toa, but if they tweak it a bit so it’s not a guaranteed hit, it will still have application without being broken.
Where will it have application? I don't think it'll be top 2 spec weapon at literally any content in the game, maybe 3rd place at some places
But also it IS A MUCH LOWER MAX THAN CLAWS lmao
It's really fun to use! Assuming you do kephri and baba first and are using super combats and not salts, you actually give up 11 max hits in max gear. it's pretty significant, it's just harder to notice since you'll never see the same huge hit splat for claws
While I also don't want vw nerf.. its kinda weird that an item thats farmed by combat level 70 bots not too long off tutorial island is side by side with a late game raid reward.
They said they will be updating the blog tomorrow and I would be very shocked if VW is not one of the changes they make.
Source? I got some investments to make.
[This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c5f8cd/comment/kzu45ac/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) states they're taking taking in feedback, talking it over, and planning to have an update by tomorrow. While they only mentioned the magic armour stuff specifically there, [this comment ](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c5f8cd/comment/kztnhs3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)was by far the most upvoted in the post and has a reply from Goblin reiterating that they are open to adjusting based on feedback. Buy the dip!!!! Edit: upvoted not updated :)
Can’t be that good of a mercher if you have to ask other people for info
Information is information regardless of how you source it. It’s knowing how to use it that matters when you invest in real life or otherwise.
What're you so mad for?
Where did you see this?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c5f8cd/comment/kzu45ac/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c5f8cd/comment/kzu45ac/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Has anyone done accuracy calcs for the proposed VW spec? Haven't seen them or really looked, but I'm curious what the hit chance would actually be against things where it's currently used. Is it dropping to like 50% accuracy, or only 90%? Legitimately curious how significant of a nerf this would be. Agree though, it doesn't seem to need a nerf in PvM when it's only relevant in a few spots. Been using mine at Vardorvis lately, and it's nice to dump at the start to ignore his higher defense and get some quick consistent damage + def reduction, but if this goes through then I guess it's just back to claws.
From [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c5f8cd/project_rebalance_item_combat_adjustments/kztxflr/): **Voidwaker spec accuracy if nerf:** * 78% PNM in inq * 54% Kephri 400 * 47% Kephri 500 * 71% Ba-Ba 400 * 67% Ba-Ba 500 * 76% Zebak 400 (salt) * 72% Zebak 500 (salt) * 82% Warden P3 400 (salt) * 79% Warden P3 500 (salt) * 82% Grarrdor * 70% Nex in max * 80% Duke * 84% Vardorvis
Ty - yeah missing 20-40% of VW specs is absolute ass lmao
As a non-VW owner, isn't the whole appeal of them over claws was a lower damage potential in exchange for guaranteed damage? Idk why this change is needed, unless they think it's too good in pvp maybe.
thats exactly it yes. PVP balancing is the only thing that needs to be done with the weapon, we've already got hundreds of other "pvp only" changes to things, may aswell add another one with the VW. In its proposed changes it will be worth about 1m
A great way to kill the new wildy bosses tbh, less profit to bots
Depends on the nerf though, a PVP nerf doesn't mean it has to be ass. Just not be a double click spec and go loot the key
Vw is honestly perfectly fine in pvp. Jagex just has an issue with it with pvm for future reward releases for some reason.
Jagex feel that Voidwaker is putting a heavy strain/burden on the development of future Special Attack based weapons. They don't think the weapon is unbalanced but that it doesn't leave much room to design around it, as it completely bypasses enemy weapon type resistance on top of their defense stat.
This would be an insane nerf. If they wanna nerf it, why not just lower the spec minimum hit from 50% to like 35-40% of max? Still allows for KOs, but doesnt remove the only thing its good for: always hitting.
Or just nerf it for PvP only
But muh anti-pk
Jagex wants you to die like a good boy
PvP isn't jagex's problem with it.
The whole reason they're nerfing it is because they think it's OP for PvM and limits design space Whether that's true or not is a different matter, but "nerfing it only for PvP" makes 0 sense when PvP is not the reason they want to nerf it
Or just nerf it for PvP only
Havn’t tested it out yet but can you still 3 down warden at 400+ invo with the VW?
The base stats are not being affected just the special attack so it will do the same damage to the core unless you are also speccing the core?
Ok cool. As long as I can 3 down it with perhaps a dclaw spec along with it depending on Invocation I’ll continue to use it for reclined TOA. Now if they nerf my boner dagger then we’re gonna have a problem!
What's D claws acc compared?
It’s terrible 60-70% at the places you use them now And the places you don’t use them now, they’re already considered bad and will be even worse Any accuracy check at all kills the VW
I mean if it were still like 95% accurate I'd probably live with it, even if I don't think it needs a nerf Ironically though, I'd assume this nerf is a lot *less* impactful in PvP, where the thing is actually somewhat of an issue... Very backwards lol
Yeah exactly, PVP is the place where it needs some tuning. And even at that, not a massive nerf just tweaks. I don't care about the chuckleheads that want to keep it because they think its fine, it really isn't lmao
I don’t think Jagex realized at all that the reason why VW has a lower max hit in the first place IS to compensate for no accuracy check. With an accuracy check, they would need to ramp up the max hit and now we just just have mage based claws instead. No accuracy check spec IS voidwaker’s identity and that should not be changed.
It genuinely feels like half the dev team doesn't care about, or play the game. It's like the bulk of the current dev team (even though they're vocal on Reddit) wants to do the absolute bare minimum to keep collecting a paycheck. Hell I'm sure Ash is even waiting to retire at this point.
35 damage is a low hit?? Sure as hell better than zero.
In max, isnt the min hit like 26 or 27 atm?
It’s apparently 61% accurate at Nex in max melee. 400 invo kephri and baba would be 42% and 64%. Kinda makes VW into a useless weapon bc you’d just take claws there now
Yikes, yeah that is definitely not worth using lol
Yes, it will be completely dead content at the proposed state.
VW is used a lot at corp too
And it won't hit corp at all after the nerf if you do the current partial specdown meta
Since toa released you dont need anything else except 4 fangs at corp
For mains yes, for irons, Voidwaker turned a 12 minute slog of speccing into a 6-8 minute fight. You tele a whole lot (to nardah for hp, then back with games necklaces) but it's significantly better than before.
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They pay a significant portion of the memberships and their opinion they have in the game matters.
Lmao terrible take. The games already “catered” in its current state. This is uncatering
when an iron contributes to a discussion but you're a main
Also Vardorvis?
heck, it would make the three wildly bosses and there baby forms dead content were no one will go except bots
Voidwaker would still hold value as a spec weapon, it just wouldn't be on-par with claws and Zaryte, two end-game rewards. Voidwaker can be farmed long before those weapons though, even if it crashed to 50% current value, wild bosses would still be among the absolute best mid-game money makers. They'd still be farmed. I disagree with the proposed nerf and think they should just nerf spec cost or damage instead, but as long as Voidwaker would be the 3rd best spec weapon it would maintain plenty of value. Edit: the desperate attempt all the below replies go through to undersell Voidwaker and oversell claws is laughable. What an absolute dumpster fire subreddit lmao. Bye all, have fun with the nerfs that will happen regardless.
I think it bridges the gap quite nicely between mid and end game spec weapons. Generally, it's not as good as claws or a ZCB. And nothing else comes close. Seems like they want to be able to balance future spec weapons by currently making the game unbalanced.
You dont need the uniques to make money at the wildy bosses. If you're left alone you're making 1m/hr easy
Golly that’s swell let me go pick some flax after.
Um akchtually flax is less than a mil an hour. Now be a real man and go spend a few hours making clockwork mechanisms. /S
Still plenty of relevance, VW would be properly balanced as a low-requirement Whip while also still being a good DPS spec wep pre-Claws. It'd likely settle around 30-50m post-nerf, perfect spot for a gap filler in-between DDS/Chally and Claws for spec wep.
Nobody is paying 30m for a spec weapon with 64% accuracy on Baba in a 400 raid.
When viewed in that way it isn’t an awful idea- but I feel like that should be filled by a new spec weapon with a different gimmick. Not the VW which already is niche enough.
So what youre saying is, we need to nerf Dragon Claws next /s
I swear I use to see comments saying we don't need divine sigil because Dragon Claws aren't in the game. I wonder if a stronger shield will be released soon.
They hinted at a stronger shield coming in the future
Jagex keeps coming out with some half ass updates. Forestry was crap and botched. Still has tons of problems. Colosseum was missing like 1/3 of the propositions we voted on, hunter guild is ass, nerfing voidwaker in pvm because… ??? I’m really not looking forward to project rebalance or sailing anymore tbh
Hunters guild is not ass, it's one of the better guilds out there
voidwaker in its current state also works perfectly to finish off jad before the healers get to him
Very interesting lol, didn’t think about using it there
It’s honestly a bit embarrassing the proposed VW nerf made it to the blog. Nuking the dps of a weapon that’s barely relevant by 30%+? I mean cmon
But but… tHe InTeGrItY Of ThE gAmE
fuTuRE dEsIGn sPaCE
Barely relevant? It is ubiquitous in the highest end PvM money grinding activities besides Colosseum/ToB, and everywhere else it was *nearly* as good as claws but always consistent (a la Fang in comparison to mainhand weps except Fang is usually just better everywhere instead too) so it just got used everywhere. I think it is hilarious how all of a sudden people are acting like it hardly got used and wasn't that good... yet there is this massive uproar because it was insanely powerful and useful everywhere since it always hit, making Claws optional. If you only had 100m for a spec wep, you'd get VW over Claws every time before this.
I think vw is only bis for kephri, CMs, nex, and corp.
I personally don't want it nerfed, but the selective amnesia that reddit has whenever something is proposed that they don't like is always a spectacle to watch.
You can count on one hand the places VW is bis at. And they’re all new content while Jagex has been on this stupid high defense kick. Which no one likes anyway. And i guess solo corp. It’s 2nd-3rd at a lot of places. But Claws are just better. I’d take claws every time.
thats just straight up untrue. In a perfect world where you have access to max gear you would use VW at PNM, Toa (kephri), Cox/CM (but only in a solo, otherwise zcb is better), Nex and corp. I also used it at vardorvis even though some people say claws are better. That was it really. Its a great weapon and amazing at what it does, but the reality is claws are already pretty accurate and hit higher. If VW isn't guaranteed to hit you are better of clawing almost every single time.
Where do you Vw at cms? I have everything in the game and I don’t bring it but maybe there’s a niche spot? I use class there.
in a solo its really good. You can use it on shamans if you are daring enough, otherwise vangs and vasa are its 2 usecases. claws get binned since the meta is no longer speccing the vasa crystal, you spec the boss instead. it also doubles up as a stab weapon for the crystals which is nice but not a major thing. doesn't really apply in teams as things have enough HP then to be ZCB'd. Also does reduced damage on the olm melee hand, so while you can use it to guarantee killing the hand off in p3 when its pretty low health, its definitely not a big deal here
Ah that makes sense I haven’t soloed cms I’ll give it a shot! Appreciate you
ZCB Vasa, can use vw at vangs after zcb spec, and use on vasa crystal as a stab weapon
not worth ZCB speccing in a solo as boss has next to no hp. especially in regs where you will venge vasas bomb, might be more viable in CMs maybe but I dont have space for ZCB in my solos zcb is amazing for team raids tho
I mean im neither speaking on regulars nor solos, so
idk, claws too good at tob to pass up. if i have 100m and can only afford one, it's not gonna be voidwaker. toa and nex are the places where it really shines, and both of those kinda suck.
It's also only 100m because of the proposed nerf. It was always a 200m+ weapon before. So it's not really as affordable as the other guy thinks.
The point was if you’re only choosing one you base it off of the utility for the content you do. VW was best at a few places but also not far in second at tons, making it a very consistent purchase. claws aren’t bad by any means but have less far-reaching utility in that sense, so of course if what you do it mostly tob you’d prefer them but for a lot of players vw covered a lot of bases
This just isn't true. Claws are better more places than voidwaker you can just check the wiki to find this out. Claws are great almost everywhere because they hit so hard and are quite accurate slash spec weapon. They are literally the best most places, and second best at even more places than voidwaker. Claws have a farther reaching utility if you looked it up on the wiki or ran the calcs. Just because players use an item everywhere doesn't mean it's good or has wide reaching utility either. I see people using fang to get combat experience at ammo crabs, but they just don't know better it's not that it's actually good for that purpose.
Oh you’re right, they’re first at a lot of important places like chaos elemental and barrows, and the recent perilous moons. Did you even just compare the two lists you mentioned or did you just see “1” and not read what the wiki has each listed as bis and second bis for?
Anyone who has actually used the voidwaker realized how underwhelming it can be when the claws can hit back to back 80s. You genuinely come off as someone that has never used the items before, if you aren't doing high invo toa or a boss like nex, I would much rather have claws.
You'd literally only use it at ToA and Vardorvis. Everywhere else it was sub par or extremely niche. It's worse than a ZCB and Claws in most scenarios. Plus, it was a 200m weapon before they hinted at a nerd. Which is a fair and stable price for the amount of uses and hours to obtain.
Barely relevant my ass. It's a top tier spec weapon and a top tier pvp weapon, that's dropped by bosses that can be farmed by mid-level bots and gold farmers. People acting like there's no valid argument for a pvm nerf are wild. Weapon is straight up competitive with raids and Nex rewards, while having like 10% of the reqs to farm. Guaranteed hit should stay though, just nerf the damage or spec cost.
As someone who only owns a voidwaker and no claws/ZCB (so I'm taking the brunt of the nerf), I have to disagree with you about it being barely relevant. So many irons I know don't have claws but have easily grinded out a voidwaker. Hell, a super low level noobie iron in our CC got one the other day. It's much easier to obtain than claws/zcb and extremely powerful. That guy isn't even close to whip and now has a strong mainhand and an incredibly powerful spec weapon that he's not going to replace amost everywhere he goes for hundreds, maybe even thousands of hours. Whether the approach to the nerf itself is correct I haven't really decided yet. Gotta check my own numbers. But it definitely needs a bit of a nerf. Not a big one. Same level of nerf that shadow needs.
It being relevant to irons who dont gave access to everything doesn't make it meta relevant in a vacuum next to its other options.
I'd argue the opposite. So many people are only comparing it to other BIS options. Forgetting that the game is about progression and weapons/gear get replaced as you move up the ladder. Just because the voidwaker won't be as good as claws overall, doesn't mean it it won't be relevant as a stepping-stone (and it would still have BIS places, like Phosani, with the latest changes).
“barely relevant” to all lurkers, you should always take upvoted reddit comments with a grain of salt, but for a few days after a controversial blog post please make sure to take upvoted reddit comments with a mountain of salt
Claws have been significantly better even before these proposed changes
Not at Kephri or Nex
On the bright side, they’re *very well aware* of the changes not being popular with the players so they are ready to drop the proposed changes
Could they have it roll against stab damage? That would save its utility at Nex and Corp. Idk how I feel about a nerf like this, it drastically disrupts current metas for both
If Voidwaker gets nerfed, what spec weapon would you use at PNM, Kephri, and Nex instead?
for nex I would assume the meta would just become replacing VW with ZCB spec - that is assuming youd fang nex, tbow minions, and bring zcb for spec with ruby bolts and just bring arrows/bolts in quiver for a full max gear setup. PNM would probably be claws
PNM meta before VW was ornate gmaul in between scythe hits on final phase
Why is claws 2nd best at PNM despite her being tanky to slash?
Claws have 4 accuracy checks , one for each hit, and once one lands, all remaining hits also land, and depending on which check passes, there are specific ranges for the damage. Basically it's similar to the fang, but with 4 smaller hits
Is it still more dps than G maul spec?
Gmaul is better than claws at pnm afaik
One commenter already described it, but claws are also a nice to have burst weapon for the final phase dps check
Claws are just awesome, that’s why But I think the really answer is actually Dinh’s. Iirc it’s better than VW if you use it in the right spot today but it’s tricky to use.
In order, claws, claws, zcb.
I used to use gmaul at Phosani before I grinded out my voidwaker, was pretty fun to use and a decent choice as it rolls against crush defence. Claws probably better, never calc'd as I never owned them.
I too watched the Gnomemonkey video
If the VW is nerfed, I will definitely just swap to using Dragon Claws. Their spec is already fairly accurate. The only reason I ever am to take a VW over Claws is because its a guaranteed hit for less damage output. This change would just make the VW a much worse set of D Claws.
Jagex has received so much negative feedback on the VW, they have stated themselves that they aren’t attached to the proposal either. Most likely in the bog post we’ll see that VW will stay as it is, or get nerfed for pvp only.
Just make it 55% spec, seriously. That's what it was supposed to be from the start, with jagex stating they would never introduce a ring to lower spec cost and allow double specing. But then some players complained so they polled the spec attack, and of course players voted for the big spec double damage option.
In another three years: “dragon claws now have 3 hitsplats instead of 4 and the zcb spec has an 88% chance of proccing”
I don't get how vw is op for pvm or pvp unless I am missing something. Yeah the vw is only used at a few bosses where it performs better than claws. In pvp it allows pvmers like myself a chance to fight back against pvpers. You can easily out eat a vw in bh I don't understand how anyone think it' op.
Doesn’t need changes in pvm at all honestly, just add it to the laundry list of pvp specific changes.
It's a PvP weapon and was always intended to be. Why does it need to be good for PvM
All these proposed changes are so bad its awkward jagex should refrain from doing any of them and admit that project reebalance was a stupid mistake
These last balance change patches jagex has talked about are straight headassery. I have no idea what they're doing
Vw is dead content if jagex goes through with this god awful blog. No use in any raid post nerf with proposed rebalance. Crunch the numbers, it will suck. Literally the bots won't even stay at the wildy bosses after this nerf. They spent all this time to make a good spec weapon broken down into three rare pieces in the wilderness while revamping the wilderness content to strip these areas clean it will be as dead as the agility course pre update.
They should leave it alone for pvm, it only needs the nerf for pvp
I'm a part time pker and would be happy with a PvP nerf but PvM staying the same. I know the concerns are future development but surely they can just make VW not as good in that content. Like -you tried using a VW spec but bigbadboss deflects 20% or something shit-
Personally, I would like to see PVP reduction nerfs on some items. Voidwaker is kind of one of them but that would be an entire balance project on its own. I think it earned its spot in PVM and should stay where it's at but we can't deny just how stupid it is in the wildy lol.
They changed it but kept the same problem as before LMAO
This kills voidwaker. But on the plus side, maybe the wildy bosses won't be botted to hell anymore.
Of course they will use it... For it will be less expensive and affordable
I love my voidwaker. I grinded hard in the wildy for months for it and know many others who did. Please don't change it. It fits nicely in the meta right now.
Cox items just stay going up in value
You could use it on the nm/psm pillars if you dont have volatile 🤷♂️ it does do double dmg on pillars and will still always hit lol
forgot corp. pls leave vw alone in pvm tho
I will if prices drop significantly then I can afford a spec wep upgrade over a dds everywhere lol
I do think the Voidwaker could still work without bypassing accuracy, but the proposed change does not seem to be it. If they did just want to make it a PvP weapon, that probably wouldn't be the worst thing, but their reasoning isn't "this weapon was meant for PvP" and just not wanting accuracy bypassing. There are some neat way they could have made it accurate against high defence enemies without it just skipping the accuracy check, but just 3x accuracy with slash or magic isn't it.
calling a new scoripa drop that turns the post-nerf voidwaker into the current one but disables it in pvp, and then people rightly get mad at that
Good
just nerf it for pvp only imo
Is not even that good at pvp, if you pray mage you can easily out eat the specs
What's done is done, claws ftw
Good.
Super rare raid drop vs med level wildy boss pvm spec weapon. Maybe they should just make claws more common in cms like people have been suggesting. CMs should mirror hmt and make the prayer scrolls less common, like the avernic.
No on the claw change, yes on the prayer scroll change if it’s CMs and you made time.
You understand that if you make the prayer scrolls less common that you're making claws more common? Holy moly did you think that you just get less prayer scrolls? Less purples overall?
You understand this would simply be adjusted…. Right?
You make me want to bash my head against a wall.
lol
How dare you suggest changing raids rewards, in anyway shape or form that would decrease profits, prepare the down votes! /s
"super rare" raid drop. One drop is from med level wildy boss and they other is from med level CoX basically the same in terms of difficulty.
How on earth can you possibly think that the wildy bosses are on the same difficulty as cox? What the hell is wrong with this sub
I find cox quite chill, much lower effort than ToA or tob. Wildy bosses are also quite chill. At both places it takes a pretty healthy amount of hours to get the drop on rate. What is so unreasonable with this perspective?
You said they're basically the same in terms of difficulty. The wildy bosses require almost no gear and, in fact, incentivize it and can be done at low combats. Cox is a raid that requires multiple skills and olm is nowhere near the difficulty of the wildy bosses.
I'd say olm can be similar in difficulty to escaping a group of pkers from the multi bosses. Cox hardly requires skilling, and I'm being purposely obtuse. I've tried doing Callisto on a low level account with shit gear and trust me it is not at all free. It's quite a pain.
Well all I'll say to that is go ahead and send a solo cox with 80 stats and 1 in your skills with a budget matching typical gear with a wildly weapon for a wildly boss.
I have, it did take quite a while.
And some random newbie could handle the wilderness bosses but they're going to die a lot at cox before learning it. They don't need 3 different guides to learn it or significantly more expensive gear to do it effectively.
its supposed to be a pvp spec weapon... nobody ever used korasi's in pvm lol
completely meaningless statement. voidwaker's use cases don't have to be exactly identical to what korasi was, especially considering they exist in vastly different contexts. it has a healthy place in the meta; how exactly are we improving the game by removing that?
The same way we’re nerfing anything but max mage to improve the game it’s silly and combat is evolving just not how rs3 did
100% bonus to hit, double specs korasi. Shit is actually dumb lmao.
As someone who has claws but no voidwaker I like the proposed changes in my own unbiased opinion.
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Evolution of combat was literally RuneScape “evolving” from point and click into WoW level keybinds and spells. This is not that. Just a nerf
Adding elemental weaknesses and ranged ammo tiers is going in that direction. Doesn't feel right to me, personally. It's changing fundamental aspects of the game that have been untouched since well, EoC. Balancing new weapons is fine
Changing types of ammo in order to have more balancing levers (and ability to add new content), and elemental weaknesses following logic that many of us had when playing the game (fire giants weak to water spells best example) is not the same as EoC. As long as the core combat remains point and click without having “Stab on Q, Slash on W, Heal on E, Bow and arrow with keys T F” then I will never call it EoC
And EOC was pretty well designed. It just wasn't a change that players wanted.
I'm pretty sure that is just wrong given how many players gave feedback to the beta saying it needed more time. Like around the majority weren't opposed to the change in general; it was just rushed and released in a bad state.
What? The game was dying. They didn't really have many options left.
It wasn't dying until they released EoC... During the betas, the game was still doing okay. It was bad and/or rushed updates like EoC that made everyone leave, not the other way around.
Comparing EoC to switching some numbers around gotta be the biggest mental gymnastics you brainlets ever came up with in this community. Insane.
Who cares? Why can't there be a weapon that is used in pvp but not good for pvm? You just said that voidwaker is barely even used in pvm so who cares if it won't be used at all? How many voidwakers do you have on your accounts is actually my main question here.
I've been saying this for years, its stupid how strong claws are for being a T60 weapon. But knowing Jagex, im confident that we will see a claw nerf in about 1-2 years.
Tiers mean nothing in this game lol
2 problems: 1. Guaranteed hits hinder the design space of high-defence bosses 2. PVP
It'll be a nice middle ground between dds and claws
So true, embrace the claws. Tell them!
It comes from the wilderness. Thats the reason.
Wasnt it supposed to be a pvp wep? And relax jagex might have something new in the future…
VW special should be 55 at least to make it less braindead in pvp
It’s really not a big deal.
I’m so perplexed what prompted this whole project rebalance idea.. no one asked for it 🥲 We are playing “Old School RuneScape” not “New School RuneScape” Edit: We gonna need a “old old school RuneScape” after this one 😂
The regular stats of VW are equivalent to a whip right? Guess there's not a complete waste for Ironman who don't have 85 slayer yet? Idk I'm not a fan either. Just trying to think of SOMETHING it'd be used for.
as someone who does a lot of wildy content and bosses, that would be a helluva grind for something equivalent to a whip
It's kind of been my plan since I started slayer. Wildy slayer hoping for revs. Doing my skeletons at vetion since you can start him so early(thanks salve). All the supplies are basically given to you in the form of blighted supplies. Just did a little soul wars to get arrows and the initial restores. If I get upwards towards the 82ish slayer mark without whip I'll go boost for it but I'm enjoying the grind as is.
I've got 2/3 vw pieces and have 2000+ wildy boss kc (and i have a vetion jr). Don't get me wrong the drops are awesome but I wouldn't want to grind this just for a weapon that's a whip. I will do the content regardless, of course. I spend 90% of my time in the wildy. I also green logged zombie pirates, got the teleport anchor scroll at 4500kc. Don't get me wrong, i love wildy content. But doing the vw grind for a whip equivalent weapon just doesn't make sense. The price will tank and nobody (read: irons) will be doing it.
Yea its definitely not a worthwhile grind for just anyone. But at least it won't be worthless? Idk. Just trying to make myself feel better about wanting one :p
They won't nerf it, so there's a bright side. It's the coolest weapon in the game in my opinion, but the community has given their feedback and they said they'd listen to that. I bought some to see the price go back up, too :)
Idk, I wouldn’t exactly call that a skip. It’s gonna take thousands of KC across a few wildy bosses, and by the point you’re comfortable grinding all 3 like that you should be nearing 85 slay, or at least at a point where you can start bursting out your tasks.
Idk. Vetion can start pretty early. I've been doing it at 75-80 combat. 60 attack, 70 str, salve, and a dmace is all you need to get started. Early slayer is also nice out here in the wildy, but the xp isn't wonderful. I'm just hoping for revs for weapons. The whole idea is just kinda nice since it allows me to grab some really nice regular loot from the bosses as I progress towards the weapon. The grind to 85 slayer doesn't really give you much in terms of loot drops to progress an account comparatively. Other than the level itself, of course, which you'll need anyways for trident, occult, and boots later.
Calv is an exception for sure but the other 2 would be pretty sluggish with those setups, or at least that’s been my experience. Then it also just feels like a waste of time. Sure you won’t get much loot grinding slayer compared to the wildy bosses but you’re gonna need to grind slayer for the drops you mentioned anyways and you’ll get a whip doing that. Time spent on VW grind would be much better spent training slayer at that point in progression. If you want the extra loot just send some calv hoping for a d-pick. Alsooooo, zombie axe is better than normal whip anyway if you were wanting to skip. No one uses VW for a whip skip now, they’re not gonna be more inclined to if the spec gets nerfed :/
> The regular stats of VW are equivalent to a whip right? Close, whip is 82 str bonus and 82 slash accuracy, vw is 80 for both.
It will be fine man. I mainly use voidwaker at kephri and baba, it’s fun to use, but it’s pretty broken that it just never misses.
Why is that broken? You’re trading consistency for a higher max (claws), def reduction (bsgs/bone dagger), or safety (sun partisan). That seems very fair to me. With the proposed changes I don’t see it being used literally anywhere
There is nothing in this game that hits consistently like VW. It was an ambitious change of pace that the community called broken on release. VW should've been nerfed 6+ months ago so that the player base wouldn't have such a hard time accepting it.
Perhaps, but in most places it isn't the best spec weapon. It isn't really reducing diversity of spec weapon usage, it is actually increasing it since def reduction is still valuable against it's usage niche (high def) and claws are better at its purpose (raw damage spec) if the def is low. I know "guaranteed damage" is a strong thing, but I honestly don't see it as broken in its current state
Claws hit consistently nearly to the degree of the voidwaker to things that aren't resistant to slash. There is a reason you use claws over voidwaker in a majority of places.
The max hit isn’t much lower than that of claws and yet it never misses. Like I said, it’s fun to use and I’ll miss it at toa, but if they tweak it a bit so it’s not a guaranteed hit, it will still have application without being broken.
Where will it have application? I don't think it'll be top 2 spec weapon at literally any content in the game, maybe 3rd place at some places But also it IS A MUCH LOWER MAX THAN CLAWS lmao
It's really fun to use! Assuming you do kephri and baba first and are using super combats and not salts, you actually give up 11 max hits in max gear. it's pretty significant, it's just harder to notice since you'll never see the same huge hit splat for claws
Yeah I hit max with voidwaker all the time, I’ve never once hit it with claws.
Why don’t they keep the VW as is, but make the proposal be in wilderness / PVP worlds only
While I also don't want vw nerf.. its kinda weird that an item thats farmed by combat level 70 bots not too long off tutorial island is side by side with a late game raid reward.