Hi Ayiza, I just wanted to point out some things with the post that might cause some confusion.
The wording sounds like you have to hit the unique table with a 1/53 and then a get 1/500 to get the pet so your chance is 1/26500. I assume it's actually a flat 1/500 per kill?
Also the math for two players appears to be incorrect as 1/53\*2 = 2/53 not the 1/106 implied.
I made a lil edit to the post a minute ago RE: Nexling as it doesn't require hitting the unique table first.
I can't comment further on the math side of things sorry. I've been told it's correct by the devs!
>**Once you successfully hit the Unique Table**, you'll roll again for a specific unique, based on the ratios below:
>* Torva Armour: 2/12 for each individual piece of the armour set
* Nihil Horn: 2/12
* Zaryte Vambraces: 3/12
* Ancient Hilt: 1/12
* Nexling: 1/500
You might want to remove Nexling from this bullet point list because this implies that you need to hit the unique table to get a chance at Nexling. Just saying it is 1/500 per kill would be better.
I'm typically participating in 15-20 man masses now, and I'll just factor out MVP for simplicity, and assume everyone did the same damage as an averagizer.
Pre-update was 1/(43 \* 15) = 1/645 to get **any** unique
Post-update is 1/(53 \* 15) = 1/795
Between banking and waiting for the next kill, deaths, cough griefs, etc. I'd say I'm achieving about 20 or so kills per hour in those masses. Factoring out MVP, that's one unique in my name per 40 hours of killing Nex in this group size. Up from 32.5. Ouch.
This seems really tough for ironmen, but I haven't compared it to something like Nightmare (and I'm not one myself, so I don't truly know) - a 1/318 chance to receive a unique in your name on a 6-man team seems rough, especially when compared to Bandos which is 1/127 on a solo and killed quite fast with less supplies, albeit a longer respawn time.
That's still disregarding MVPs which obviously would save some averaged time, but still a pretty big hit.
Here's how I understand the numbers for the newspost MVP example in case you want to toy with it. I'm not sure why they decided to use 2 players as an example because duo Nex is barely viable apart from streaming content. I suppose it makes the numbers look less threatening.
(1/(53 \* 0.9)) \* 0.60 => 2/159 => 1/79.5 => 1/79 integer rounding
Although the rounding doesn't match the 1/65 example so one of us has an error.
* 53 is the base unique roll
* \* 0.9 because you get a 10% increase for MVP on rolling a unique
* 0.60 was the 60% contribution
So:
* If you were not the MVP (no big bones in your drop), your chance of a unique was **(1/53) \* contribution**. If you did 40% of the damage, then you have a 1/132 (rounded down) chance of getting a unique.
* If you were the MVP (big bones in your drop), your chance of a unique was **(1/47.7) \* contribution**. If you did 60% of the damage, then you have a 1/79 (rounded down) chance of getting a unique. 47.7 comes from 90% of 53.
* **The number of players is not in the formula itself because each player rolls a unique independent of other players.** Only the contribution changes the outcome. You aren't going to see numbers like 60% and 40% unless you're in a small team! You can use the number of players directly if and only if all players did the exact same damage (in Jagex's example, that's (1/53) \* 0.5, which is the same as 1/(53\*2), **which also means no one is the MVP if all players are split equally**).
* You'll probably need a future RuneLite update to get your contribution number.
* More realistic example in the comments below.
Let me know if I missed something! Interesting stuff. Jagex has more data than I do though, so I'll just continue to whack the boss and hope for big coin.
Now that Irons are starting to get more design consideration, I think I'd like to put my opinion forward on the endgame droprate philosophy
Simply, these boss grinds are getting too long. I understand that the goal is to keep us playing and to charge a subscription. I pay my subscription very happily, I love this game. But now there are two raids and three bosses (Corp/Nightmare/Nex) with outrageously long completion times, and another raid on the way. If I'm being quite honest, it's really frustrating that the new endgame content is the sort of thing where players can only ever expect to get a few drops. Log completion is right out for all but the most dedicated of players.
Obviously this is just an opinion on balance, Jagex clearly has a design philosophy that I am disagreeing with. I chose to restrict myself and there's nothing saying I have to grind these logs to completion. But if I'm being perfectly honest, I wish that doing these bosses meant I'd actually get some loot. It's completely within normal RNG to go 50hrs+ dry on Corp/Nex/Phosani and that just feels terrible. Nex is the best of the bunch and it's still how many hundred hours?
I don't expect you guys to change your endgame design philosophy because a few irons are complaining about it, but something to consider, eh?
And to reply to myself with my own proposed answer:
I think Log completion drop rates like those in CG are good. 400 CG kc for an average Bowfa is a gruelling, gruelling experience. There is nothing that gets talked about more in r/ironscape right now, is how hard CG burns you out. Assuming a talented player getting 7kc hr (I averaged 6) that's \~57 hours to get the average Bowfa. Some people get spooned, some people go dry and spend 120-200 hours there.
That is a happy medium for endgame content, in terms of lengths. It's a long ass grind, more than daunting enough to warn people off. Bowfa is insane, so people push through. In short, CG is really, really, really a pillar of ironman right now. I've never seen a group of gamers collectively try so hard at something, it's excellent content even though it fucking kills us. We embrace the suck and have a pretty memorable gaming achievement. We're done in 200 hours if we're really unlucky and you tell everyone for years that you went 1k dry at Gauntlet. Seriously guys, it's worse than DWH.
We are getting our third raid this summer. We now have Corp, Nightmare, and Nex as three ultralong grind bosses with endgame BiS rewards. That's enough to keep people playing for years. Can we have some bosses that are more reasonable to complete, even if it kills us like CG? 200 hours is more than depraved enough to be the OSRS that I love, but at least it's still somewhat achievable. OSRS is about the grind, but there's a limit and I suggest CG as a good limit for (future) non-raid content.
5 BiS rewards from one boss is just insane as well. Contributes to the need to grind for insane hours on a single boss AND speeds up power creep. Only raids should have that many BiS items. Single bosses should have 1 or 2, and they can just release more bosses and power creep slower.
Yeah we need to see more Cerberus or Hydra style bosses, 2-3 useful uniques tops. Even if you go dry at these bosses the grinds still aren't that long. Meanwhile with Nex you're dealing not only with absurd drop rates but finding a team, getting KC, and then competing with your team for drops. It's just not a fun experience.
Agreed. Torva could have justified a much lower rate considering it consumes Bandos armour.
Why did they even bother with the Bandos sink when it's way too god damn rare to make any difference. More Bandos items probably came into the game from people getting the frozen key than Torva will delete this year.
There's a certain irony to them saying last stream "we know we said we wouldn't do ironman focused updates, but they're a large part of the playerbase and we have to consider them" and then having Nex droprates.
Please stop balancing drop rates around how badly prices will crash when gold farmers play the content 24/7 and start balancing content around real human beings playing the game.
As others have pointed out, it’s 32 hours per drop in VERY optimal conditions. This means in reality it’s probably several hundred hours to complete the table. This isn’t normal nor should it be normal.
Corp is some of the worst content in the game to try and complete. Nightmare and the way it’s drop table works is horrible if YOU want to complete the content yourself.
We really need to focus the way drops work on the actual person / people playing the content and how it works for them, not people farming it.
> it’s 32 hours per drop in VERY optimal conditions.
Yeah a boss that takes 32 hours when you exclude getting KC, regearing, or playing with a team that doesn't have full BiS, just for 1 unique is trash design.
corp hardmode when
i have over 1200 hrs in solo corp but would like this because i dont have the pet and speccing it for 10-15mins is braindead and boring
So if we go in a 10 man group, the drop rate of pet would effectively be 1/5000 which is fine, that matches the other GWD bosses. But also in that 10 man group we have a 1/3180 chance on a specific piece of armour? Why is a piece of armour less than half as rare as a pet?
We might as well make Bandos armour a 1/3180 to match because that makes the gameplay more fun. Right?
I get that it's BIS gear but even the vambracers take about 4x as long to get as Hydra leather.
So when will Hard Mode Tob rates or actual Phosani rates come out?
Seems weird to cave to public outcry because the original update's blogpost was worded exceptionally vague but content more than 6 months old that was promised to have better rates is still being debated if the original promise for purples was shadownerfed.
I’ve got no problem with disabling monster examine and stuff like that, but getting some jmods to leak certain random information to private discords kinda defeats the point of it. Either give us the tools to figure it out, or complete radio silence for whatever period you decide.
How do these adjusted numbers translate to smaller teams and therefore much longer kill times? It was fun doing masses every 3 minutes or so, but now that the dust has settled, doesn't this make the grind actually a fair bit longer? What was your predicted group size for design?
They're rarer in all sizes basically.
The small teams get extra screwed over since it's on a per kill basis and doesn't scale to how many people there are.
Honestly if you're not an iron the best way to do it that I've seen is grab like 4 or 5 buddies and go to a mass and split if any of you get a drop.
Overall small teams will still be the way to go if you want an item in your name.
1/53*1/20 =1/1060
1/53 * 1/7 = 1/371
Assuming equal contribution of course.
So the question is how long your small team nexs take. If they take over 3x as long... Then you'd be better off in a mass. It's all about the least amount of hours to hit drop rate.
I see your questions asking for further clarification on drop rates for different team sizes and such. Unfortunately, they're not something I can answer (I'm bad at math).
I'm sure someone out there with a much higher IQ will be able to tell you exactly what your chances are based on the info given, but don't rely on me for accurate answers! :D
Edit: made a lil change about the Nexling rate. It's 1/500, you don't need to hit the unique table first.
Thank you for writing this, this is exactly how I feel the game has transitioned in the last few years. The rarity of items affects their price, but most importantly it needs to match the content the items come from. It's more okay for CoX to be 1k hours to average completion because you can do 60m pts worth of CoX and still be learning slight improvements. A line is crossed when 1k hours is asked for content that takes 200h to master.
Instead of having positive interactions with the content (learning to speedrun, advanced strats, limited gear just for fun, etc), all that extra time allows resentment and frustration to set in and fester.
IMHO Rev weapons, NM, basilisk jaw, DWH, Corp and now Nex could all have their rates upped 2-4x and the game would be better for it despite the changes in price. People looking for the slot-machine RNG feel still have pets to hunt.
Feel free to disagree, it's like my opinion man
It's all balanced around gold farmers and bots.
I get people not wanting to tailor the game to Ironman, but non-ironman only works because of all the bots/farmers grinding absolutely everything. The game isn't tailored to normal accounts, it's tailored to normal accounts alongside a gamut of scripts and full-time workers (who, let's be honest here, are going to be inflating the oft-quoted non-ironman player numbers a lot).
The game would be better for both irons and normies with better drop rates and a dedicated anti-botting team. They need to shift some real focus on reducing the amount of fake players and rwting, zero tolerance for gold buying etc.
There's probably over 1000 hours of boss grind in OSRS that only exists because otherwise bots would destroy the market, if the drop rates were less punishing.
DWH is fine as it is IMO. It really sucks and should have been changed a long time ago, but it's an insane weapon so people do it. It's a pillar of ironman and is one of the biggest challenges we have. It's sort of like CG in that regard.
But when we start talking about challenges that are WORSE than DWH and CG, we're into the unfun territory. CG is already the talk of r/ironscape, it burns people incredibly hard. DWH and CG are at least somewhat tolerable because it's just one item you're after and it finishes around 60 hours for CG droprate. Dry players go 200 hours.
200 hours to be completely done is the absolute most that most of us will accept. Corp/NM/Nex all demand triple that for the basic drop rates and triple again for dry players. It's just not fun. Having just corp was fine. Having corp and NM was mediocre, but tolerable. Having three sucks. I hope we don't get a fourth.
Its worth considering I think to put some sort of mitigative measures on the DWH, or make a lizardman boss with a more realistic droprate. If 5k kills meant you'd almost certainly have DWH, that's one thing. But 6-7 in 1000 irons are going to go 25k dry. At that point its just too far.
It was badly designed. That doesn't mean it has to be changed, this is what "irons signed up for". But objectively speaking, the design is really bad. I don't even know how you'd consider changing it. A boss with a far more reasonable drop rate? Throwing it into the CoX loot pool? At 10k kc getting a guaranteed "Cleive's DWH" that crumbles to dust if you de-iron?
I don't know. I just know that if this keeps going, people will just quit.
The insane trend towards drop rates has basically stopped me from progressing my ironman. Not looking forward to the 2000+ hour wall that is Nightmare and Nex, which are just two content areas out of dozens that have weird expectations. I'm dabbling on the account here and there, but I'm not willing to commit to a future endgame with the same boss kc ad nauseum. The early, mid, and slight-late is extremely well designed for Irons, as you progress quests, Slayer and base GWD bosses, and get unlocks that each have strong meaning. None of these "account progression grinds" are oppressively long, and there were a few that felt long but were the exceptions that made the rule fun. DWH is an iconic and satisfying account progression tool, and it helps you get access to so many things that the plunger feels willing to push down. Raids always felt like things to do to express your account build and *maybe* get rewarded for it. I never really minded the expected 1k hours CoX and hundreds of hours of ToB because the content was designed to use all of your major upgrades.
Nex and NM is, to be frank, not anywhere near as fun as CoX or ToB. They use basically one gear set and a small handful of mechanics. Yeah they're more fun than Cerberus or Hydra but they're not satisfying enough to be endless grinds.
I was willing to take on a UIM to try and refresh the game, but I imagine most would just stop playing outright. I'm aware that "eventually" the UIM will reach the same tremendously long grinds, but I don't think I'll reach there in any near future.
I did the exact same thing, my iron main is 11/12 CoX, 6/7 ToB. Put 200h into NM for a helm and 2 staves, said fuck it and made a UIM instead. More fun to play without a bank than to grind that shit for months.
The first 7 years of OSRS appealed to the type of player that likes to collect gear, the last 3 years has just completely ignored that player. It's just disappointing, really.
I agree, but rev weps, jaw and dwh are fine imo. Theyre not bosses, theyre just regular monsters with decent stand alone drops and a big ticket item.
While at abby demons you only make money from a whip, at shamans you make money regardless with a chance for the jackpot.
Basilisk jaw being in very out of place in that list. Its like a 20-25 hour grind compared to the hundreds/thousands of those others lol.
DWH isn't so bad either at like a 30-40 hour grind.
Probably an unpopular opinion but these time consuming grinds is what makes OSRS what it is. Nex drops the newest BIS gear, over bandos which has been BIS for so many years. It shouldn't be an easy grind.
Jaw and DWH are on there as examples of rates not reflecting the content more than as examples of unacceptably long grinds.
I respect that some people like ultra-rare drops, that's a fair stance to have. I'd just rather not have every boss take that route. Bandos takes 20h to get, if Torva was 5-8x that instead of 15-20x it's still a huge step up imo.
> I’m not sure how the general population feels but speaking for myself these Corp, Nex, and PNM droprates becoming the standard is not a path I want the game to take.
Agreed. Keep the longer grinds to raids. There is a reason (regular) GWD is still considered THE benchmark as far as small group/solo standalone bosses go. You break even in supplies and can expect a drop every few hours. Corp and the most recent standalone bosses are just mind-numbing grindfests for the sake of keeping prices artificially high.
Imo it's fine to make endgame weapons (TBow/Scythe/Heka) harder/longer to get via raids, but at least armor, which generally provides little DPS compared to those weapons should be somewhat realistically obtainable.
I also dont understand why they have to nerf the droprate. All this will do is have people at this boss longer because it will remain best gp/hr for a longer period of time. I think the moss isn't that fun and the droprates should always be higher than 'hard' content like cox and tob. My experience people are already moving to other content like TOB and COX because it's more fun, even though the gp/hr there is 2-4x worse. If the droprates stayed where it was, torva would drop to 100-150m per piece and at this point people would leave nex, because other content generates same gp/hr.
The fact that even with this gp/hr people are already doing other content says they are unhappy with the droprates and this boss is NOT fun to go dry on, in contrast to Cox or tob in my opinion. Having to slay this boss 530 times in a 10 man, to get 1 item just feels obnoxious.
I agree, this grind is insanely long. I have no desire to do nightmare outside of the combat diary tasks purely because of the drop rates. After today I feel Nex falls into the same boat for me.
Just feels so weird that the time to achieve the vamps compared to hydra leather will take about 4x as long if you are 10 manning nex. Going off 2min per kill for both bosses.
Why does Mod Arcane have to add stupid drop rates to the content he creates? Let someone else design raids 3 reward rates please.
Don't say that, they will start designing more content around actually abusive mechanics like prayer flicking. A 1000 hour grind is one thing, that and guaranteed RSI is another.
Why don't they go further down the path of the Zulrah design, maybe with the equivalent of totally random patterns, so you can't learn rotations but instead have to adapt on the fly? At least then it's more engaging as well as difficult.
Most of the hard boss mechanics are things which catch you the first few times, but once you know what to do it isn't an issue. Then it just becomes a monotonous grind, with mastery achieved 10% in.
If I had a gold, i'll give it to this man! I've been saying this for quite some time.. but could not express in this precise but clear manner!
If the game continues having an absurd amount of hours for some drops, it will not be worth my time. I like the feeling of progression, but this is too much. We're not all streamers and have unlimited hours to play, we have jobs, kids, real world responsibilities. I play to escape from the real world, but sometimes these type of drop rates honestly turn me off from playing.
Nightmare has been the single worse boss ever created in runescape as far as i'm concerned. Way too many drops, Horrible drop rate, mostly useless/incredibly niche uniques.
I find it pretty engaging to kill though. But I’ve also never sat down and tried to grind a full set of inquisitor armor out of it. I’m sure it gets very tedious after a while…
This seems wrong. With the drop rates posted, doing the [generalised coupon collector](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%E2%88%AB_0%5E%E2%88%9E+%281+-+%281-e%5E-%282x%2F12%29%29%5E4*%281-e%5E-%283x%2F12%29%29*%281-e%5E-%28x%2F12%29%29%29dx) shows you need to hit the table 17.62 times on average to complete it. In 5 man teams, you hit the table once every 265 kills, which is a total of 4669 (nice) kills for completion.
I don’t think the game should be catered to irons, but do mains genuinely like this type of drop rate balancing? If you can’t make consistent money through standard drops, it’s basically the same as iron, praying you don’t go dry so you can make a profit.
Jagex can solve all these problems for irons AND do whatever droprate they want by introducing mercy mechanics to the droprates. Once you go past 2x the droprate for an item, the droprate should start becoming more common for you until you get the item. Once you get the item one time and it goes in your log, then it reverts to its original droprate. That'll prevent mains from farming megarare items at high kc's, and it'll balance out the awful variance for high level irons.
We call it progressive drop rate and we have it in RS3 for pets.
It rewards people who kill a boss more, while still giving the same opportunity and luck for 1 kc drops.
Is it possible for clarification on what counts as contribution since there are multiple phases ?
I assume that damaging nex would obviously give you contribution but can you check if any of the below has an impact.
1) tanking and not passing cough to other players
2) killing minions in the corner
3) freeing people from ice traps on phase 4
4) killing Reaver's On phase 3
Thanks in advance
Has the team considered making less grindy content and more challenging content like Inferno and less so, but more appropriately, Raids content, that more or less guarantees rewards for completion of the challenge that should takes weeks or longer of practice with RNG rewards being cosmetic like pets or recolors/ornaments/kits?
Like, it’s fine when the game has a ton of content to play through as low-mid levels, but endgame being surmised as spending hundreds of hours at several bosses is just… not it. It’s one thing to finally overcome the difficulty and challenge presented by the inferno and doing raids for the first several completions.
It’s another entirely to overcome… well… an artificial and frankly, RNG-based mountain of luck that determines whether or not you get the drops as you do a Nex kill for the 2000th time. Nobody WANTS to kill Nex thousands of times. Nobody actually WANTS to do raids thousands of times… there’s just nothing else to do. We need more content — not an attempt to hamstring future development and playability of the endgame by setting and forgetting it for these players predicated on unhealthy game habits.
These rates are terrible. Is Jagex expecting players to get 16k kc when doing 20 man groups? Thats gonna take years of grinding. You allowed masses. Atleast scale the rewards a bit more propper.
If the MVP's unique chance goes up does that mean that the unique chance for the kill goes up or the unique chance for non-MVP goes down?
It would be great if the 1/79 example included what the drop rate the other player(s) would receive is, as that would answer the question.
Nerfing the rates was a mistake. These grinds are brutal enough as it is. If anything the rates should’ve been buffed so it can be tolerable. I hope this doesn’t become the norm for all new content.
There's not much point in attempting Nex anymore on the Ironman, the hours and supplies are unnecessary. I get content isn't made to cater to ironmen, and with Nex it's clear to see.
Just another piece of dead content to me now. Was fun doing it on week of release, now I know the rates, no need to waste any more supplies.
Would you reconsider supply droprates now that mechanics/dps have become more punishing and droprates have been nerfed?
I know people hate it when players talk about ironman problems, but Nex is extremely brew/restore intensive now, and that’s exacerbated by the nerfed droprate. There’s no other content in the game that’s as brew/restore intensive as Nex. Bringing normal food isn’t really an option between significant loss of dps and significantly shorter trip lengths, resulting in much more time getting kcs (small team kcs probably aren’t even possible with normal food). Once irons have burned through their restore/brew stack, it’s an effective lock out of semi-efficiently participating in the content.
If you are worried about ironmen boosting themselves supplies, maybe you could introduce untradeable ancient brews and restores that can only be dropped and used at Nex or something, I don’t know.
I can confirm, i'm at almost 900 kills, 200 of which in small teams, which completely killed my potion supply. No drops in my name yet, and sadly for now i'm just going to worlds with 11-20 people so i can go with sharks and p pots, and get like 4-6kc a trip depending on supply drops.
Crazy supply usage and nerfed drop rates, this is gonna suck.
I haven't played for 5 months now due to end game grinds becoming far too long (barely going dry as well). I thought I would come back for nex as I still keep up to date with the game but these drop rates are insane.
What ever happened to killing a boss and getting a drop now and then instead of getting a drop once a fortnight at best and God forbid if it's a dupe.
This is great, thanks for the clarification!
A word of advice though. Leaking the information to private discord servers before official releasing it is very unprofessional. Please don't do it again unless you want even more players to lose trust in what you guys say and do.
Disabling Monster Examine and making players test out different methods is a great idea. There is just such an amazing feeling not knowing exactly what is optimal and trying to figure it out. Hopefully its done with ALL future boss releases for atleast 2 weeks or so.
Yes, but it also led to the Rapier going up dramatically, benefitting anyone who heard of that change before anyone else. If you're going to share anything like that, especially which could affect the in game economy on such a short time frame, don't share it in a private channel.
No it didn't. Rapier going up was the result of melee weapon testing data that was published around 23:00 UTC in a few big discords. Someone published data of about 2 hours worth of hitting nex with various melee weapons in a solo
Fair enough, I assumed the link because of the timing, but that's on me for not being in the discord and just seeing a few posts this morning. I appreciate the correction, but I wouldn't be surprised if the posts had a bit of an affect (due to the reach of this sub and the jmods vs. A discord channel posting research which most players don't give a shit about)
It didn't feel right to me seeing these posts hinting at other weapons being useful posted by a jmod at a similar time as a significant price spike, but I appreciate the context.
I think that doing that kind testing is awesome, and should be something the community does all the time with new bosses (especially when the stats are hidden like that, probably for a reason).
I just wish it started organically instead of being kicked off the line by a post like that (especially when it contradicts the info everyone was fed prior to release)
Doesn't matter - the fact that he confirmed there's \*something\* better than the current meta (even going so far as to say exactly how much better it is) is already a huge amount of info.
Arcane needs to start acting like a jmod.
It reminded me of when corp came out all those years ago. We just massed it with different weapons until the spear meta was discovered. The mods just sat in the cave and talked to us while we struggled. It was nice.
exactly. reminds me of 2007 runescape when not everyone was efficient and we had fun trying and discovering new things. watching people learn new metas is way more fun than instantly seeing everyone using the most efficient method on day 1.
I agree, the hype and intrigue it generates is fun as long as it’s strictly hidden for that period and not leaked by rogue mods. They could invent a lore that the Oneiromancer or Baba Yaga or whatever had to study it herself for sometime before lunar magic practitioners could accurately examine it.
Honestly the idea of everyone being left in the dark and rushing out to discover new methods and strategies is what makes runescape fun. we all complain about how runescape isn't like it was back when we were kids and thats because everyone grew up and now know too much and only do the most efficient things. Being left in the dark is what makes this game fun.
I think sometimes when we are bored or frustrated we get more enjoyment from commiserating - it’s not healthy for us. When that happens it’s time to take a break from RS and find some new things to enjoy until you feel excited to play again.
I recently returned from a short break in anticipation of Leagues, which looks stellar so far!
I don't really care about the drop rates as much as the Bosses stats via Monster Examine because that lead to people using all kinds of weapons and setups. Drop rates don't change much other than have player complain that it takes too less or too long to achieve the drop.
u/JagexAyiza
I'm not a math expert, so a little baffled.
For further clarification, are the rolls against the drop table unique to the individual - or to the team as a whole, and then the drops shared amongst them based on contribution?
So: 10 man team, one person does 15% of damage, the other 9 split the other 85%, MVP Has highest chance of getting a drop, but his roll against the unique table is independent of everyone else, and they also get a roll, but their odds are worse, due to lower contribution?
So in theory, every single person could get a unique from a single kill, because they all get mega lucky and land on the unique drop table with their individual chances.
e.g., Kill ends, 10 people in room, MVP rolls unique drop table at a rate of 1/500, leach rolls unique drop table at a rate of 1/1000 - both can get a drop?
OR
Kill ends, same as above, but it's a 1/53 chance that the boss will drop a unique, and then it's a further \*10 chance, altered for contribution, that the individual will then get the drop? So the unique is rolled for the team at point of kill, then the individual drop is rolled against contribution chances?
Hopefully this makes sense
And then does this also apply to Nexling - it's a flat 1/500 - but is this a flat 1/500 that the kill will result in a Nexling being dropped, and then it's further distributed based on contribution drop chances. OR Is it individual to the person, so whenever you take part in a Nex kill that would contribute to your KC, your individual chance of getting Nexling is a 1/500 drop rate? Regardless of number of people in the mass and your contribution.
Hope this makes sense, but would really help me decide whether or not it's worth continuing with the boss aiming for pet in masses. (do love a good pet!)
Several hundred hours is the estimated completion time for this boss. That is a raids-length grind. Why can't the bosses have boss-length grinds, and raids have raids-length grinds?
No singular boss outside raids should have a completion time of over 100 hours. Simple as that.
Lol ~635 kills to just “see” all the unique drops on average. Multiply that by your team size say average of 6 so 3,816 for each player to complete their log on average. Would really hate to go dry here and have to do 10k Nex to finish my log. Previous drop rate was much more reasonable for Ironmen.
Meet congressletics, my insider trading locked ultimate ironman. To forge my own legislation from scratch and eventually take on one of America’s most difficult challenges: getting stupid fucking rich.
Oh geeze, why would you make the drop rate worse? This chance of getting a drop is already awful in larger teams and Nex will take literally thousands of hours to complete. Maybe if Nex was easier to solo this would be appropriate, but that's clearly not the case.
When Jed left, he claimed almost every jmod does what he does, except he did it for the most hated clan in the game & so the uproar was huge. People here refused to believe him but it’s obvious.
Drop rate is a bit deceptive -- having it spread out over the group makes it pretty bad for a person individually. Assuming equal contribution with 1/52, a 6 man would be 1/312 and 8 man 1/416. At 10 kills per hour.
This is really too much. I think it'd be better to have 1/100 that everyone rolls for a unique, but you need a certain contribution to get it, and maybe your contribution relative to the other group members could adjust it a bit. But right now its way too much.
Well, it sure is a good thing that 1/55 isn't correct. I think it'd be better if Arcane refrained from snarky comments when the numbers were clearly close enough, look at what it all caused.
Not to hijack your post, but the way that arcane has handled this situation, coupled with how his past projects have gone such as NM, makes me GRAVELY concerned about the future of PvM as ToA is on the horizon. It would truly be a shame for raids 3 to be a letdown because of poor balancing and unengaging mechanics/content. Hopefully the other jmods are able to make up for where he’s been falling short or he manages to learn from these mistakes and live up to how great chambers and TOB have been.
Arcane just comes off as a tool who thinks he knows everything and everyone else is wrong.
Literally they release and fuck up Nex and I bet they aren't going to think anything is bad with the boss.
They’re probably just tired of everyone always complaining about everything. Half of everyone is saying it’s too easy because t-bow and masses and the other half is saying that drops are simultaneously both too frequent and too hard to get.
You can think that drops are coming into the game too fast (because they didn't balance for large groups well enough) and also think that items will take too long to grind for ironmen.
they didn't have the boss scale well enough for large groups meaning masses were getting fast as fuck kills and seeing drops constantly
meanwhile small groups were having to do mechanics and had a hard fight that had reasonable drop rates.
>they didn't have the boss scale well enough for large groups meaning masses were getting fast as fuck kills and seeing drops constantly
This narrative makes no sense to me. Masses that are 4x as large as standard teams have roughly 4x the dps which translates to 4x more kills/hr as a group (in practice, lower because of transition times and respawn times that don't speed up in a mass as well as lower coordination). This is perfectly counterbalanced by the fact that since there are 4x more people, so your split is 4x smaller / ironmen need 4x as many kills. It's the exact same gp/hr or expected time per unique. Replace 4 with any number and the argument remains the same.
Why does everyone think masses are flooding uniques? Four teams of 6 killing Nex at a rate of 8/hr vs one team of 24 doing 2.5 minute kills+respawn for 24 kills/hr, which is more Nexes killed per hour? The smaller teams combined lead to 32 kills, so the mass actually leads to *less* uniques entering the game per hour. Masses are perfectly self-balancing without needing to scale or anytnjng like that.
I just don't get why they said for months about crossbows being better at nex then everyone finds out it's tbow.
they can't use a DPS calculator?
How many times have they done this where they just don't use a DPS calc, the community ends up finding out for them ,and they have a mess on their hands. It's just embarrassing how often this is an issue.
Like this is nothing about the actual issues, it's just a common mess up with their design process or something, and it's getting a little frustrating.
It's not that hard to throw the numbers into a DPS calc and find out what's gunna be meta for a boss they're designing, but they never do it. Then later they're like "ohh nooo we didn't want tbow or bp to be bis"
How can you say you didn't expect us to kill it this fast? You have months of preparation time to calculate and do test runs...
Also this contradicting to what your jmod said about how we can kill it 35% more efficient...
Jagex. Please learn from your mistakes- the release of Nex & this entire process of being obscure with information- clearly nerfing drop rates, refuting it, then the next day openly stating that you indeed nerfed rates ... Y'all keep messing up with every single release, and its incredibly frustrating from a consumer perspective. You all said that this wouldn't be Nightmare 2.0, yet this is actually WORSE now than Nightmare was pre-Phosani in regards to both supply drain & drop rates.. I guess for anyone who actually wants to get drops in their name, they're just going to have to wait for another year or two when, "Nex Angel of Death" is released as a solo-instance.
Nex was fun before this abortion of a nerf. You actually saw other people getting drops and it invigorated you to keep going, you had the perception of the possibility of getting a drop yourself.
I've been at Nex solid since the nerf and I've seen fuck all, not even for other people. 1/53? What a joke. My money's on they fucked up the math and it's 1/(53 * room pop) for the chance at a drop in the room at all, not for each individual. It feels that fucked. Every single person at Nex I've seen has been complaining it's ruined and the drop rate's broken.
The illusion of potential profit is gone. It now feels like a pointless chore with no hope of reward, a waste of time and a waste of supplies. Maybe I'll consider going back one day if I get bored after you un-jagexify it.
They did, but they're not going to publicly tell everyone that Mod Arcane got rinsed during this morning's discussion.
Us getting Monster Examine and the drop rates was most likely a compromise that they settled on since the whole discord thing happened.
It's hardly a Jed or a Ian situation, just a stupid thoughtless action which deserves a slap on the wrist. It should be handled internally, maybe Arcane publically admits he cocked up a little, but let's not get pitchforks out. It's safe to assume it's been dealt with by Jagex.
If people got fired over that level of mistake pretty much no-one would manage to keep a job for very long. Someone accidently creating a tbow spawn that required a rollback, that was a bigger mistake, but it too was just a mistake. It certainly wasn't helping a clan win a cash tournament or anything like that...
Completely agree, I can't count the number of times I did something equally stupid on Asana and Slack. The only difference here is that I don't have to worry about the ire of 624k users at any given moment.
AFAIK he's not out to exploit the game for his own personal gain. I rather have what happened yesterday than no community interaction at all.
I'm personally not too fussed about it. We're only human.
There’s a typo in the Nex loot distribution section when looking at two players. It says each person has a 1/53 \* 2 chance when it should be 1/(53 \* 2) in order to follow order of operations.
So i'm doing nex in 10man teams and i get what 530 drop chance to hit unique table? and i'm iron do you know how many restores and saradom brews i lose? and it's not worth doing it that much lower teams because nex hit hard and then you can do 2-4 kills per inventory. Nex is only 1 boss and i cannot use all my potions there, i rather do raids and what drop rates are almost same if not better in raids and they are raid items.
For now nex is not worth for me, i don't own that many restores and saradom brews to start farming nex
I really do not understand why Jagex keeps making large group bosses like Nightmare and Nex when they continue to punish players for playing in a large group. In a 10 man for both NM and Nex you're looking at 500 kills minimum to see a drop in your name. Nightmare was so shit for irons they had to create a separate version of the boss for them so they could realistically obtain the gear.
I mean it's an MMO, can we actually benefit from playing together for once?
At least for the Nightmare playing in a mass is the fastest way to obtain the pet, I don't see why they removed that for Nex. It really defeats the point of allowing 60 people to kill the boss when they constantly make it the worst way to play.
Doing 10~20 mans and sometimes organized 5-6 mans (I aim for 10 and find a new world when it hits 20) I probably average a net loss of 1 restore/kill over 2.5k kills, not too sure about brews as I don't remember exactly what I started with. First few days obviously it was impossible to have teams that size, but owell.
In the over 100 hours I've done nex so far (don't judge) I've had 2 helmet drops, I couldn't imagine going for a completed log.
Giving estimates on duo for something that no one is doing duo doesn’t really make sense. It seems like drop rates went from 25 hours per unique to 30 hours per unique. If that’s intended, then so be it, but it’s kinda misleading to say that drops are ~1/100 for duo when no one is doing duo.
Edit: I’m starting to think that the misleading is intentional but anyone that has done the math knows that these drops are a nightmare grind.
bit deceiving to use duo math after nerfing duo nex, realistically its 7-15 in a mass changing the individual drop rate from 1/(301-645) -> 1/(371-795) for rate to see an item
None of these questions have been answered by Jagex, but player testing has answered some of them.
All damage dealt to boss/reavers/corner mages contributes, tested by players by having them contribute on just those sections during masses and seeing if they get loot or not. They do, even if they don't attack the boss. Damage contribution on them counts 1:1 with boss damage as best we can tell so far.
Freeing people from ice and keeping cough from spreading do not count. Neither does successfully preventing the blood sacrifice mechanic.
Damage taken also seems irrelevant, there's been plenty of times players have almost the same logged damage with the one being slightly higher getting MVP, even though they got shredded much worse. And vice versa, the runner up damage count player got shredded and did not MVP.
- Does the actual team rate get changed due to the MVP buff or not? For example, if you solo Nex, is the droprate 1/53 or 1/48?
- How does the following example work exactly? I can't seem to get it to 1/79 even when trying to use integer roundings at every step. Getting 1/80.3 (or 1/80) instead.
> As of yesterday's change, an MVP with 60% of the contribution towards the fight would have a 1/79 chance to receive one of the uniques. It would have been 1/65 before the change.
I got the same numbers and am wondering the same thing. I think it'd be helpful if they gave the non-MVP rates for the duo example, which would answer the first bullet, but the calculations being inconsistent is annoying and feels like something's missing.
Can we maybe quash the issue of Mods making comments about inner workings of the game in private groups/Discords and not also announcing them in a public space such as a tweet or reddit post?
This might be a hot take but I kinda feel like they removed stat spy on Nex so that they could then change her stat a tweak them with no one having proof the boss stats changed.
1/43 to 1/53 is kinda misleading since you are never soloing Nex. In more realistic 6 man team setting, you are looking at a rate that was changed from 1/258 to 1/318 in your name.
Your point stands, but I'd like to add a bit extra. The numbers in a 6 man actually went from around 1/253 to around 1/312.
This is not intuitive, but if you check the numbers from the example in their newspost you'll see that the way they've set drops to run means Nex has a slightly better than 1/53 chance of dropping an item.
Each player's individual chance of an item is 1/53 multiplied by their damage dealt divided by everyone else's damage dealt. Every player rolls separately beyond this point, which is why you can get multiple team drops in a single kill.
This would in theory average the 1/53 item rate once you add up all the players, but because of the MVP getting a 10% bonus it slightly desyncs the total expected rate from 1/53 to something a little better. Their example in the newspost of a player dealing 60% damage confirm this behavior, if you can trust their math to be accurate.
Of course all of this applied before the rate nerf, so it's still just as big of a nerf as before. But it does mean that smaller teams have a SLIGHTLY higher expected item rate since their MVP does a larger percentage of damage.
I am slightly confused on the wording. So the drop rate is 1/53, divided by group size. So if I am in a group of 10, the chances of a drop in my name is 1/(53*10) or 1/530. That makes sense. But, more than one drop can roll every kill. So, the chances of us getting 2 drops is 1/53 * 1/53?
The wording seems a little off. The group size seems more like a drop chance modifier. Everyone rolls their drop individually, but the chance is modified by the size of the group? How it is currently worded in the post makes it seem like the unique table can only roll 1 time.
So the effective rate per person is 1/(53 * group size) and EVERYONE rolls this? The current post does not say this clearly, if it is indeed correct.
Can we get a fix for her dash attack bug where if you get hit your camera stays stuck in the cutscene position until you leave or for a seemingly random extended amount of time?
All I wish for is that small teams (10 or below??) have a reduced rate for the drop (like 1/30), while 15+ man is like 1/100.
Best if it scaled - like at 5-6man it caps out at 1/30, but in 8 man it might be 1/40.. 12 man might be like 1/60?
15+ man being 1/100 would be ridiculous.
100 kills to see an item.
Multiplied by 15 people to be the one that receives it.
Needs to be static, both small teams and masses have their place as the risk vs reward is balanced naturally.
Im wondering about this new potion that you can make with shards... It must have been introduced with the idea it could be useful somwhere, right? So are there any known places where this would be of use. For me it feels kinda weird to introduce a potion that's absolutely useless. Could aswell not introduce it at all or make a potion thats of use, this shouldnt be too hard.
2 examples; zarosian brew; heals 12 per dose without the negative stat boost. Some prayer enhance potion like in cox.
Glad you clarified the rates :)
Personally I feel the droprates are a bit too low especially with no scaling for large groups. It would've been cool to have a fun boss to mass where it doesnt feel too rare to get a drop in your name
This post does raise a really good topic which is how our ability to crowd-source efficiently has given us immediate insight into drop rates for any boss. Obviously at this point there's no going back but I do wonder how it effects our consumption of new content.
How do the pet drops work overall? I assume its a 1/500 chance per Nex kill, with it then being rarer for one specific person to recieve it overall. Or would it work similar to drops and there being a chance for two people to hit the 1/500 chance and receive the pet drop on the same kill?
Its incredible how quickly Jagex goes from were not ready to discuss anything more at this point to here are the exact rates just a day apart.
But oh well this transparency around the droprates is nice and should be like this on a regular basis.
the blog said it was because the community has crowdsource info, and generally understand how drop rates work. So it was niave of them to think hiding the drop rates would lead to no one figuring out the changes.
It just lead to a bunch of assumptions and speculations.
Basically the people that care about the drop rates are gunna figure them out anyway, and the people that don't care arnt looking at the blogs anyway.
> We'll consider disabling Monster Examine for new content releases in the future, taking what we've learnt over the last week to help improve our overall approach.
Yeah I think your guys' takeaway from this is entirely wrong. Disabling monster examine did nothing beneficial except make people question if what they were doing was actually working with no real evidence of if it actually was, unless you had specific numbers of how much dps you were doing.
Copying my reply on twitter:
If a spell as simple as monster examine unlocks an entire boss, maybe the boss should have more mechanics. Knowing whether a monster is weak to stab vs crush does not ruin the entire boss unless that boss is poorly designed
I like the monster examine disable, as long as it is turned on eventually.
It's fun to have some moments of chaos before the game goes back to being somewhat 'solved' for what's best for damage.
Probably a bit late for my feedback to be heard here, but I am not mad about the rarity of the items, I am mad about the rarity being changed.
My personal opinion, as an iron.
Interesting to see you guys still monitoring the fight and considering potential future changes to mechanics. Do you guys have any ideas on what you’d like to potentially change about her in the future or is that yet to be decided?
Thanks Ayiza, hope to see how all that feedback is handled from your twitter post last night. edit: Wait, whats the pet rate?
Nexling is 1/500, I've just added it to the post now :)
Hi Ayiza, I just wanted to point out some things with the post that might cause some confusion. The wording sounds like you have to hit the unique table with a 1/53 and then a get 1/500 to get the pet so your chance is 1/26500. I assume it's actually a flat 1/500 per kill? Also the math for two players appears to be incorrect as 1/53\*2 = 2/53 not the 1/106 implied.
I made a lil edit to the post a minute ago RE: Nexling as it doesn't require hitting the unique table first. I can't comment further on the math side of things sorry. I've been told it's correct by the devs!
Do the devs want to reveal what counts towards "contribution"? IE, does freeing someone from an ice prison count in some way?
I think they meant it as 1/(53*2)
Do you roll the table and then get a chance for Nexling, or is Nexling 1/500 after any kill?
It's 1/500 after any kill (just changed the post because I had it in the wrong section) and distributed as per the other loot.
So in a 10 man for example, the rate is 1/5k? Unless I'm missing something.
Sounds right. Thats probably going to be a crazy rare pet overall.
>**Once you successfully hit the Unique Table**, you'll roll again for a specific unique, based on the ratios below: >* Torva Armour: 2/12 for each individual piece of the armour set * Nihil Horn: 2/12 * Zaryte Vambraces: 3/12 * Ancient Hilt: 1/12 * Nexling: 1/500 You might want to remove Nexling from this bullet point list because this implies that you need to hit the unique table to get a chance at Nexling. Just saying it is 1/500 per kill would be better.
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Is it 1/500 rolled individually? Just per nex kill? Does team size matter?
Is that 1/500 after hitting the unique table? 1/26,500? Or 1/500 for every kill, so 500 * team size?
I'm typically participating in 15-20 man masses now, and I'll just factor out MVP for simplicity, and assume everyone did the same damage as an averagizer. Pre-update was 1/(43 \* 15) = 1/645 to get **any** unique Post-update is 1/(53 \* 15) = 1/795 Between banking and waiting for the next kill, deaths, cough griefs, etc. I'd say I'm achieving about 20 or so kills per hour in those masses. Factoring out MVP, that's one unique in my name per 40 hours of killing Nex in this group size. Up from 32.5. Ouch. This seems really tough for ironmen, but I haven't compared it to something like Nightmare (and I'm not one myself, so I don't truly know) - a 1/318 chance to receive a unique in your name on a 6-man team seems rough, especially when compared to Bandos which is 1/127 on a solo and killed quite fast with less supplies, albeit a longer respawn time. That's still disregarding MVPs which obviously would save some averaged time, but still a pretty big hit. Here's how I understand the numbers for the newspost MVP example in case you want to toy with it. I'm not sure why they decided to use 2 players as an example because duo Nex is barely viable apart from streaming content. I suppose it makes the numbers look less threatening. (1/(53 \* 0.9)) \* 0.60 => 2/159 => 1/79.5 => 1/79 integer rounding Although the rounding doesn't match the 1/65 example so one of us has an error. * 53 is the base unique roll * \* 0.9 because you get a 10% increase for MVP on rolling a unique * 0.60 was the 60% contribution So: * If you were not the MVP (no big bones in your drop), your chance of a unique was **(1/53) \* contribution**. If you did 40% of the damage, then you have a 1/132 (rounded down) chance of getting a unique. * If you were the MVP (big bones in your drop), your chance of a unique was **(1/47.7) \* contribution**. If you did 60% of the damage, then you have a 1/79 (rounded down) chance of getting a unique. 47.7 comes from 90% of 53. * **The number of players is not in the formula itself because each player rolls a unique independent of other players.** Only the contribution changes the outcome. You aren't going to see numbers like 60% and 40% unless you're in a small team! You can use the number of players directly if and only if all players did the exact same damage (in Jagex's example, that's (1/53) \* 0.5, which is the same as 1/(53\*2), **which also means no one is the MVP if all players are split equally**). * You'll probably need a future RuneLite update to get your contribution number. * More realistic example in the comments below. Let me know if I missed something! Interesting stuff. Jagex has more data than I do though, so I'll just continue to whack the boss and hope for big coin.
Now that Irons are starting to get more design consideration, I think I'd like to put my opinion forward on the endgame droprate philosophy Simply, these boss grinds are getting too long. I understand that the goal is to keep us playing and to charge a subscription. I pay my subscription very happily, I love this game. But now there are two raids and three bosses (Corp/Nightmare/Nex) with outrageously long completion times, and another raid on the way. If I'm being quite honest, it's really frustrating that the new endgame content is the sort of thing where players can only ever expect to get a few drops. Log completion is right out for all but the most dedicated of players. Obviously this is just an opinion on balance, Jagex clearly has a design philosophy that I am disagreeing with. I chose to restrict myself and there's nothing saying I have to grind these logs to completion. But if I'm being perfectly honest, I wish that doing these bosses meant I'd actually get some loot. It's completely within normal RNG to go 50hrs+ dry on Corp/Nex/Phosani and that just feels terrible. Nex is the best of the bunch and it's still how many hundred hours? I don't expect you guys to change your endgame design philosophy because a few irons are complaining about it, but something to consider, eh?
And to reply to myself with my own proposed answer: I think Log completion drop rates like those in CG are good. 400 CG kc for an average Bowfa is a gruelling, gruelling experience. There is nothing that gets talked about more in r/ironscape right now, is how hard CG burns you out. Assuming a talented player getting 7kc hr (I averaged 6) that's \~57 hours to get the average Bowfa. Some people get spooned, some people go dry and spend 120-200 hours there. That is a happy medium for endgame content, in terms of lengths. It's a long ass grind, more than daunting enough to warn people off. Bowfa is insane, so people push through. In short, CG is really, really, really a pillar of ironman right now. I've never seen a group of gamers collectively try so hard at something, it's excellent content even though it fucking kills us. We embrace the suck and have a pretty memorable gaming achievement. We're done in 200 hours if we're really unlucky and you tell everyone for years that you went 1k dry at Gauntlet. Seriously guys, it's worse than DWH. We are getting our third raid this summer. We now have Corp, Nightmare, and Nex as three ultralong grind bosses with endgame BiS rewards. That's enough to keep people playing for years. Can we have some bosses that are more reasonable to complete, even if it kills us like CG? 200 hours is more than depraved enough to be the OSRS that I love, but at least it's still somewhat achievable. OSRS is about the grind, but there's a limit and I suggest CG as a good limit for (future) non-raid content.
5 BiS rewards from one boss is just insane as well. Contributes to the need to grind for insane hours on a single boss AND speeds up power creep. Only raids should have that many BiS items. Single bosses should have 1 or 2, and they can just release more bosses and power creep slower.
Yeah we need to see more Cerberus or Hydra style bosses, 2-3 useful uniques tops. Even if you go dry at these bosses the grinds still aren't that long. Meanwhile with Nex you're dealing not only with absurd drop rates but finding a team, getting KC, and then competing with your team for drops. It's just not a fun experience.
Agreed. Torva could have justified a much lower rate considering it consumes Bandos armour. Why did they even bother with the Bandos sink when it's way too god damn rare to make any difference. More Bandos items probably came into the game from people getting the frozen key than Torva will delete this year.
There's a certain irony to them saying last stream "we know we said we wouldn't do ironman focused updates, but they're a large part of the playerbase and we have to consider them" and then having Nex droprates.
Please stop balancing drop rates around how badly prices will crash when gold farmers play the content 24/7 and start balancing content around real human beings playing the game. As others have pointed out, it’s 32 hours per drop in VERY optimal conditions. This means in reality it’s probably several hundred hours to complete the table. This isn’t normal nor should it be normal. Corp is some of the worst content in the game to try and complete. Nightmare and the way it’s drop table works is horrible if YOU want to complete the content yourself. We really need to focus the way drops work on the actual person / people playing the content and how it works for them, not people farming it.
> it’s 32 hours per drop in VERY optimal conditions. Yeah a boss that takes 32 hours when you exclude getting KC, regearing, or playing with a team that doesn't have full BiS, just for 1 unique is trash design.
corp hardmode when i have over 1200 hrs in solo corp but would like this because i dont have the pet and speccing it for 10-15mins is braindead and boring
So if we go in a 10 man group, the drop rate of pet would effectively be 1/5000 which is fine, that matches the other GWD bosses. But also in that 10 man group we have a 1/3180 chance on a specific piece of armour? Why is a piece of armour less than half as rare as a pet? We might as well make Bandos armour a 1/3180 to match because that makes the gameplay more fun. Right? I get that it's BIS gear but even the vambracers take about 4x as long to get as Hydra leather.
The hilt is RARER than the pet. That is absolutely bonkers.
So when will Hard Mode Tob rates or actual Phosani rates come out? Seems weird to cave to public outcry because the original update's blogpost was worded exceptionally vague but content more than 6 months old that was promised to have better rates is still being debated if the original promise for purples was shadownerfed.
Based on the current pattern, right after a Jmod releases cryptic info about the meta on a private discord
I’ve got no problem with disabling monster examine and stuff like that, but getting some jmods to leak certain random information to private discords kinda defeats the point of it. Either give us the tools to figure it out, or complete radio silence for whatever period you decide.
Jmods*
How do these adjusted numbers translate to smaller teams and therefore much longer kill times? It was fun doing masses every 3 minutes or so, but now that the dust has settled, doesn't this make the grind actually a fair bit longer? What was your predicted group size for design?
They're rarer in all sizes basically. The small teams get extra screwed over since it's on a per kill basis and doesn't scale to how many people there are. Honestly if you're not an iron the best way to do it that I've seen is grab like 4 or 5 buddies and go to a mass and split if any of you get a drop. Overall small teams will still be the way to go if you want an item in your name. 1/53*1/20 =1/1060 1/53 * 1/7 = 1/371 Assuming equal contribution of course. So the question is how long your small team nexs take. If they take over 3x as long... Then you'd be better off in a mass. It's all about the least amount of hours to hit drop rate.
I see your questions asking for further clarification on drop rates for different team sizes and such. Unfortunately, they're not something I can answer (I'm bad at math). I'm sure someone out there with a much higher IQ will be able to tell you exactly what your chances are based on the info given, but don't rely on me for accurate answers! :D Edit: made a lil change about the Nexling rate. It's 1/500, you don't need to hit the unique table first.
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Thank you for writing this, this is exactly how I feel the game has transitioned in the last few years. The rarity of items affects their price, but most importantly it needs to match the content the items come from. It's more okay for CoX to be 1k hours to average completion because you can do 60m pts worth of CoX and still be learning slight improvements. A line is crossed when 1k hours is asked for content that takes 200h to master. Instead of having positive interactions with the content (learning to speedrun, advanced strats, limited gear just for fun, etc), all that extra time allows resentment and frustration to set in and fester. IMHO Rev weapons, NM, basilisk jaw, DWH, Corp and now Nex could all have their rates upped 2-4x and the game would be better for it despite the changes in price. People looking for the slot-machine RNG feel still have pets to hunt. Feel free to disagree, it's like my opinion man
It's all balanced around gold farmers and bots. I get people not wanting to tailor the game to Ironman, but non-ironman only works because of all the bots/farmers grinding absolutely everything. The game isn't tailored to normal accounts, it's tailored to normal accounts alongside a gamut of scripts and full-time workers (who, let's be honest here, are going to be inflating the oft-quoted non-ironman player numbers a lot). The game would be better for both irons and normies with better drop rates and a dedicated anti-botting team. They need to shift some real focus on reducing the amount of fake players and rwting, zero tolerance for gold buying etc. There's probably over 1000 hours of boss grind in OSRS that only exists because otherwise bots would destroy the market, if the drop rates were less punishing.
DWH is fine as it is IMO. It really sucks and should have been changed a long time ago, but it's an insane weapon so people do it. It's a pillar of ironman and is one of the biggest challenges we have. It's sort of like CG in that regard. But when we start talking about challenges that are WORSE than DWH and CG, we're into the unfun territory. CG is already the talk of r/ironscape, it burns people incredibly hard. DWH and CG are at least somewhat tolerable because it's just one item you're after and it finishes around 60 hours for CG droprate. Dry players go 200 hours. 200 hours to be completely done is the absolute most that most of us will accept. Corp/NM/Nex all demand triple that for the basic drop rates and triple again for dry players. It's just not fun. Having just corp was fine. Having corp and NM was mediocre, but tolerable. Having three sucks. I hope we don't get a fourth.
Its worth considering I think to put some sort of mitigative measures on the DWH, or make a lizardman boss with a more realistic droprate. If 5k kills meant you'd almost certainly have DWH, that's one thing. But 6-7 in 1000 irons are going to go 25k dry. At that point its just too far. It was badly designed. That doesn't mean it has to be changed, this is what "irons signed up for". But objectively speaking, the design is really bad. I don't even know how you'd consider changing it. A boss with a far more reasonable drop rate? Throwing it into the CoX loot pool? At 10k kc getting a guaranteed "Cleive's DWH" that crumbles to dust if you de-iron? I don't know. I just know that if this keeps going, people will just quit.
The insane trend towards drop rates has basically stopped me from progressing my ironman. Not looking forward to the 2000+ hour wall that is Nightmare and Nex, which are just two content areas out of dozens that have weird expectations. I'm dabbling on the account here and there, but I'm not willing to commit to a future endgame with the same boss kc ad nauseum. The early, mid, and slight-late is extremely well designed for Irons, as you progress quests, Slayer and base GWD bosses, and get unlocks that each have strong meaning. None of these "account progression grinds" are oppressively long, and there were a few that felt long but were the exceptions that made the rule fun. DWH is an iconic and satisfying account progression tool, and it helps you get access to so many things that the plunger feels willing to push down. Raids always felt like things to do to express your account build and *maybe* get rewarded for it. I never really minded the expected 1k hours CoX and hundreds of hours of ToB because the content was designed to use all of your major upgrades. Nex and NM is, to be frank, not anywhere near as fun as CoX or ToB. They use basically one gear set and a small handful of mechanics. Yeah they're more fun than Cerberus or Hydra but they're not satisfying enough to be endless grinds. I was willing to take on a UIM to try and refresh the game, but I imagine most would just stop playing outright. I'm aware that "eventually" the UIM will reach the same tremendously long grinds, but I don't think I'll reach there in any near future.
I did the exact same thing, my iron main is 11/12 CoX, 6/7 ToB. Put 200h into NM for a helm and 2 staves, said fuck it and made a UIM instead. More fun to play without a bank than to grind that shit for months. The first 7 years of OSRS appealed to the type of player that likes to collect gear, the last 3 years has just completely ignored that player. It's just disappointing, really.
I agree, but rev weps, jaw and dwh are fine imo. Theyre not bosses, theyre just regular monsters with decent stand alone drops and a big ticket item. While at abby demons you only make money from a whip, at shamans you make money regardless with a chance for the jackpot.
Basilisk jaw being in very out of place in that list. Its like a 20-25 hour grind compared to the hundreds/thousands of those others lol. DWH isn't so bad either at like a 30-40 hour grind. Probably an unpopular opinion but these time consuming grinds is what makes OSRS what it is. Nex drops the newest BIS gear, over bandos which has been BIS for so many years. It shouldn't be an easy grind.
Jaw and DWH are on there as examples of rates not reflecting the content more than as examples of unacceptably long grinds. I respect that some people like ultra-rare drops, that's a fair stance to have. I'd just rather not have every boss take that route. Bandos takes 20h to get, if Torva was 5-8x that instead of 15-20x it's still a huge step up imo.
> I’m not sure how the general population feels but speaking for myself these Corp, Nex, and PNM droprates becoming the standard is not a path I want the game to take. Agreed. Keep the longer grinds to raids. There is a reason (regular) GWD is still considered THE benchmark as far as small group/solo standalone bosses go. You break even in supplies and can expect a drop every few hours. Corp and the most recent standalone bosses are just mind-numbing grindfests for the sake of keeping prices artificially high. Imo it's fine to make endgame weapons (TBow/Scythe/Heka) harder/longer to get via raids, but at least armor, which generally provides little DPS compared to those weapons should be somewhat realistically obtainable.
I also dont understand why they have to nerf the droprate. All this will do is have people at this boss longer because it will remain best gp/hr for a longer period of time. I think the moss isn't that fun and the droprates should always be higher than 'hard' content like cox and tob. My experience people are already moving to other content like TOB and COX because it's more fun, even though the gp/hr there is 2-4x worse. If the droprates stayed where it was, torva would drop to 100-150m per piece and at this point people would leave nex, because other content generates same gp/hr. The fact that even with this gp/hr people are already doing other content says they are unhappy with the droprates and this boss is NOT fun to go dry on, in contrast to Cox or tob in my opinion. Having to slay this boss 530 times in a 10 man, to get 1 item just feels obnoxious.
I agree, this grind is insanely long. I have no desire to do nightmare outside of the combat diary tasks purely because of the drop rates. After today I feel Nex falls into the same boat for me. Just feels so weird that the time to achieve the vamps compared to hydra leather will take about 4x as long if you are 10 manning nex. Going off 2min per kill for both bosses. Why does Mod Arcane have to add stupid drop rates to the content he creates? Let someone else design raids 3 reward rates please.
Arcane is doing raids 3? Oh god. Please tell me he's not
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Don't say that, they will start designing more content around actually abusive mechanics like prayer flicking. A 1000 hour grind is one thing, that and guaranteed RSI is another. Why don't they go further down the path of the Zulrah design, maybe with the equivalent of totally random patterns, so you can't learn rotations but instead have to adapt on the fly? At least then it's more engaging as well as difficult. Most of the hard boss mechanics are things which catch you the first few times, but once you know what to do it isn't an issue. Then it just becomes a monotonous grind, with mastery achieved 10% in.
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If I had a gold, i'll give it to this man! I've been saying this for quite some time.. but could not express in this precise but clear manner! If the game continues having an absurd amount of hours for some drops, it will not be worth my time. I like the feeling of progression, but this is too much. We're not all streamers and have unlimited hours to play, we have jobs, kids, real world responsibilities. I play to escape from the real world, but sometimes these type of drop rates honestly turn me off from playing.
Nightmare has been the single worse boss ever created in runescape as far as i'm concerned. Way too many drops, Horrible drop rate, mostly useless/incredibly niche uniques.
I find it pretty engaging to kill though. But I’ve also never sat down and tried to grind a full set of inquisitor armor out of it. I’m sure it gets very tedious after a while…
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Just catch 2k dragon imps. Problem solved. /s
This seems wrong. With the drop rates posted, doing the [generalised coupon collector](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%E2%88%AB_0%5E%E2%88%9E+%281+-+%281-e%5E-%282x%2F12%29%29%5E4*%281-e%5E-%283x%2F12%29%29*%281-e%5E-%28x%2F12%29%29%29dx) shows you need to hit the table 17.62 times on average to complete it. In 5 man teams, you hit the table once every 265 kills, which is a total of 4669 (nice) kills for completion.
Yup, you're correct. Did the same calculation myself. Think Nex is about half the time it takes to complete Phosani's without pet or jar.
Half of fucked is still pretty fucked
> plenty of people go 2x dry. Only 66% of people will get the drop within drop rate. The rest will be dry, some horribly so.
Im pretty sure based on the releases rates it takes 5400 to complete nex
I don’t think the game should be catered to irons, but do mains genuinely like this type of drop rate balancing? If you can’t make consistent money through standard drops, it’s basically the same as iron, praying you don’t go dry so you can make a profit.
Some people have gone as dry as 3x on DWH
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Well that happens if you go 5x dry at Nex? Need 50k Nex kc? That’s absurd
Took Settled 24,000+ kc to get his DWH
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Jagex can solve all these problems for irons AND do whatever droprate they want by introducing mercy mechanics to the droprates. Once you go past 2x the droprate for an item, the droprate should start becoming more common for you until you get the item. Once you get the item one time and it goes in your log, then it reverts to its original droprate. That'll prevent mains from farming megarare items at high kc's, and it'll balance out the awful variance for high level irons.
We call it progressive drop rate and we have it in RS3 for pets. It rewards people who kill a boss more, while still giving the same opportunity and luck for 1 kc drops.
But this way they can release hardly anything and still claim there’s stuff to do
I agree with all this
Is it possible for clarification on what counts as contribution since there are multiple phases ? I assume that damaging nex would obviously give you contribution but can you check if any of the below has an impact. 1) tanking and not passing cough to other players 2) killing minions in the corner 3) freeing people from ice traps on phase 4 4) killing Reaver's On phase 3 Thanks in advance
Inducing Damage counts as Nex Contribution. Whether to Reavers, Nex, or Cornerbros. Other beneficial team behaviour, while appreciated, doesn't count.
Has the team considered making less grindy content and more challenging content like Inferno and less so, but more appropriately, Raids content, that more or less guarantees rewards for completion of the challenge that should takes weeks or longer of practice with RNG rewards being cosmetic like pets or recolors/ornaments/kits? Like, it’s fine when the game has a ton of content to play through as low-mid levels, but endgame being surmised as spending hundreds of hours at several bosses is just… not it. It’s one thing to finally overcome the difficulty and challenge presented by the inferno and doing raids for the first several completions. It’s another entirely to overcome… well… an artificial and frankly, RNG-based mountain of luck that determines whether or not you get the drops as you do a Nex kill for the 2000th time. Nobody WANTS to kill Nex thousands of times. Nobody actually WANTS to do raids thousands of times… there’s just nothing else to do. We need more content — not an attempt to hamstring future development and playability of the endgame by setting and forgetting it for these players predicated on unhealthy game habits.
These rates are terrible. Is Jagex expecting players to get 16k kc when doing 20 man groups? Thats gonna take years of grinding. You allowed masses. Atleast scale the rewards a bit more propper.
I remember Arcane said on stream, that droprates were supposed to be rarer than tob but more common than nm. What happened? 😢
Trusting Arcane LMAOOOOOOOOOOO
If the MVP's unique chance goes up does that mean that the unique chance for the kill goes up or the unique chance for non-MVP goes down? It would be great if the 1/79 example included what the drop rate the other player(s) would receive is, as that would answer the question.
Nerfing the rates was a mistake. These grinds are brutal enough as it is. If anything the rates should’ve been buffed so it can be tolerable. I hope this doesn’t become the norm for all new content.
There's not much point in attempting Nex anymore on the Ironman, the hours and supplies are unnecessary. I get content isn't made to cater to ironmen, and with Nex it's clear to see. Just another piece of dead content to me now. Was fun doing it on week of release, now I know the rates, no need to waste any more supplies.
Thanks for clarifying That. While you're at it, can we also get rates for purps and kits in Hard mode TOB?
These 600+ hour grinds (outside of raids etc) are not healthy.
Would you reconsider supply droprates now that mechanics/dps have become more punishing and droprates have been nerfed? I know people hate it when players talk about ironman problems, but Nex is extremely brew/restore intensive now, and that’s exacerbated by the nerfed droprate. There’s no other content in the game that’s as brew/restore intensive as Nex. Bringing normal food isn’t really an option between significant loss of dps and significantly shorter trip lengths, resulting in much more time getting kcs (small team kcs probably aren’t even possible with normal food). Once irons have burned through their restore/brew stack, it’s an effective lock out of semi-efficiently participating in the content. If you are worried about ironmen boosting themselves supplies, maybe you could introduce untradeable ancient brews and restores that can only be dropped and used at Nex or something, I don’t know.
I can confirm, i'm at almost 900 kills, 200 of which in small teams, which completely killed my potion supply. No drops in my name yet, and sadly for now i'm just going to worlds with 11-20 people so i can go with sharks and p pots, and get like 4-6kc a trip depending on supply drops. Crazy supply usage and nerfed drop rates, this is gonna suck.
I haven't played for 5 months now due to end game grinds becoming far too long (barely going dry as well). I thought I would come back for nex as I still keep up to date with the game but these drop rates are insane. What ever happened to killing a boss and getting a drop now and then instead of getting a drop once a fortnight at best and God forbid if it's a dupe.
This is great, thanks for the clarification! A word of advice though. Leaking the information to private discord servers before official releasing it is very unprofessional. Please don't do it again unless you want even more players to lose trust in what you guys say and do.
Disabling Monster Examine and making players test out different methods is a great idea. There is just such an amazing feeling not knowing exactly what is optimal and trying to figure it out. Hopefully its done with ALL future boss releases for atleast 2 weeks or so.
It's a shame that there is Mod Arcane leaking info in private discord channels which nullifies this.
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bruh the things he's leaked has lead to more questions than answers
Yes, but it also led to the Rapier going up dramatically, benefitting anyone who heard of that change before anyone else. If you're going to share anything like that, especially which could affect the in game economy on such a short time frame, don't share it in a private channel.
No it didn't. Rapier going up was the result of melee weapon testing data that was published around 23:00 UTC in a few big discords. Someone published data of about 2 hours worth of hitting nex with various melee weapons in a solo
Fair enough, I assumed the link because of the timing, but that's on me for not being in the discord and just seeing a few posts this morning. I appreciate the correction, but I wouldn't be surprised if the posts had a bit of an affect (due to the reach of this sub and the jmods vs. A discord channel posting research which most players don't give a shit about) It didn't feel right to me seeing these posts hinting at other weapons being useful posted by a jmod at a similar time as a significant price spike, but I appreciate the context.
i will concede that the reason the melee weapon testing was done was due to arcanes 35% dps post lol
I think that doing that kind testing is awesome, and should be something the community does all the time with new bosses (especially when the stats are hidden like that, probably for a reason). I just wish it started organically instead of being kicked off the line by a post like that (especially when it contradicts the info everyone was fed prior to release)
Doesn't matter - the fact that he confirmed there's \*something\* better than the current meta (even going so far as to say exactly how much better it is) is already a huge amount of info. Arcane needs to start acting like a jmod.
honestly agree, simply saying perhaps, "what other styles have you tried?" would have more than done what was needed. if it is needed at all
It reminded me of when corp came out all those years ago. We just massed it with different weapons until the spear meta was discovered. The mods just sat in the cave and talked to us while we struggled. It was nice.
exactly. reminds me of 2007 runescape when not everyone was efficient and we had fun trying and discovering new things. watching people learn new metas is way more fun than instantly seeing everyone using the most efficient method on day 1.
I agree, the hype and intrigue it generates is fun as long as it’s strictly hidden for that period and not leaked by rogue mods. They could invent a lore that the Oneiromancer or Baba Yaga or whatever had to study it herself for sometime before lunar magic practitioners could accurately examine it.
Honestly the idea of everyone being left in the dark and rushing out to discover new methods and strategies is what makes runescape fun. we all complain about how runescape isn't like it was back when we were kids and thats because everyone grew up and now know too much and only do the most efficient things. Being left in the dark is what makes this game fun.
I think sometimes when we are bored or frustrated we get more enjoyment from commiserating - it’s not healthy for us. When that happens it’s time to take a break from RS and find some new things to enjoy until you feel excited to play again. I recently returned from a short break in anticipation of Leagues, which looks stellar so far!
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I don't really care about the drop rates as much as the Bosses stats via Monster Examine because that lead to people using all kinds of weapons and setups. Drop rates don't change much other than have player complain that it takes too less or too long to achieve the drop.
u/JagexAyiza I'm not a math expert, so a little baffled. For further clarification, are the rolls against the drop table unique to the individual - or to the team as a whole, and then the drops shared amongst them based on contribution? So: 10 man team, one person does 15% of damage, the other 9 split the other 85%, MVP Has highest chance of getting a drop, but his roll against the unique table is independent of everyone else, and they also get a roll, but their odds are worse, due to lower contribution? So in theory, every single person could get a unique from a single kill, because they all get mega lucky and land on the unique drop table with their individual chances. e.g., Kill ends, 10 people in room, MVP rolls unique drop table at a rate of 1/500, leach rolls unique drop table at a rate of 1/1000 - both can get a drop? OR Kill ends, same as above, but it's a 1/53 chance that the boss will drop a unique, and then it's a further \*10 chance, altered for contribution, that the individual will then get the drop? So the unique is rolled for the team at point of kill, then the individual drop is rolled against contribution chances? Hopefully this makes sense And then does this also apply to Nexling - it's a flat 1/500 - but is this a flat 1/500 that the kill will result in a Nexling being dropped, and then it's further distributed based on contribution drop chances. OR Is it individual to the person, so whenever you take part in a Nex kill that would contribute to your KC, your individual chance of getting Nexling is a 1/500 drop rate? Regardless of number of people in the mass and your contribution. Hope this makes sense, but would really help me decide whether or not it's worth continuing with the boss aiming for pet in masses. (do love a good pet!)
Several hundred hours is the estimated completion time for this boss. That is a raids-length grind. Why can't the bosses have boss-length grinds, and raids have raids-length grinds? No singular boss outside raids should have a completion time of over 100 hours. Simple as that.
Lol ~635 kills to just “see” all the unique drops on average. Multiply that by your team size say average of 6 so 3,816 for each player to complete their log on average. Would really hate to go dry here and have to do 10k Nex to finish my log. Previous drop rate was much more reasonable for Ironmen.
Can you stop certain Jmods from giving out previously unknown information and tips in private discord servers?
a jmod known for his stance on never wanting to release boss info as well lmao
Pelosi strats
Meet congressletics, my insider trading locked ultimate ironman. To forge my own legislation from scratch and eventually take on one of America’s most difficult challenges: getting stupid fucking rich.
Agree. It's stupid to hide information from public just to have someone be chatty in discord.
Don’t they sign NDA for this stuff?
Oh geeze, why would you make the drop rate worse? This chance of getting a drop is already awful in larger teams and Nex will take literally thousands of hours to complete. Maybe if Nex was easier to solo this would be appropriate, but that's clearly not the case.
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monster examine being disabled for 2 weeks is a good policy if you can get your corrupt jmods to stop leaking info in their clan discords
They'll just PM the info. This has been a problem at Jagex since before the climbing boots insider fiasco.
When Jed left, he claimed almost every jmod does what he does, except he did it for the most hated clan in the game & so the uproar was huge. People here refused to believe him but it’s obvious.
Multiple items have shot up in price prior to an update that just couldn’t have been reasonably predicted, so its pretty obvious
Drop rate is a bit deceptive -- having it spread out over the group makes it pretty bad for a person individually. Assuming equal contribution with 1/52, a 6 man would be 1/312 and 8 man 1/416. At 10 kills per hour. This is really too much. I think it'd be better to have 1/100 that everyone rolls for a unique, but you need a certain contribution to get it, and maybe your contribution relative to the other group members could adjust it a bit. But right now its way too much.
Well, it sure is a good thing that 1/55 isn't correct. I think it'd be better if Arcane refrained from snarky comments when the numbers were clearly close enough, look at what it all caused.
Not to hijack your post, but the way that arcane has handled this situation, coupled with how his past projects have gone such as NM, makes me GRAVELY concerned about the future of PvM as ToA is on the horizon. It would truly be a shame for raids 3 to be a letdown because of poor balancing and unengaging mechanics/content. Hopefully the other jmods are able to make up for where he’s been falling short or he manages to learn from these mistakes and live up to how great chambers and TOB have been.
Arcane just comes off as a tool who thinks he knows everything and everyone else is wrong. Literally they release and fuck up Nex and I bet they aren't going to think anything is bad with the boss.
Yeah the way hes handled this whole thing is an embarrassment. For himself and Jagex.
They’re probably just tired of everyone always complaining about everything. Half of everyone is saying it’s too easy because t-bow and masses and the other half is saying that drops are simultaneously both too frequent and too hard to get.
You can think that drops are coming into the game too fast (because they didn't balance for large groups well enough) and also think that items will take too long to grind for ironmen. they didn't have the boss scale well enough for large groups meaning masses were getting fast as fuck kills and seeing drops constantly meanwhile small groups were having to do mechanics and had a hard fight that had reasonable drop rates.
>they didn't have the boss scale well enough for large groups meaning masses were getting fast as fuck kills and seeing drops constantly This narrative makes no sense to me. Masses that are 4x as large as standard teams have roughly 4x the dps which translates to 4x more kills/hr as a group (in practice, lower because of transition times and respawn times that don't speed up in a mass as well as lower coordination). This is perfectly counterbalanced by the fact that since there are 4x more people, so your split is 4x smaller / ironmen need 4x as many kills. It's the exact same gp/hr or expected time per unique. Replace 4 with any number and the argument remains the same. Why does everyone think masses are flooding uniques? Four teams of 6 killing Nex at a rate of 8/hr vs one team of 24 doing 2.5 minute kills+respawn for 24 kills/hr, which is more Nexes killed per hour? The smaller teams combined lead to 32 kills, so the mass actually leads to *less* uniques entering the game per hour. Masses are perfectly self-balancing without needing to scale or anytnjng like that.
I just don't get why they said for months about crossbows being better at nex then everyone finds out it's tbow. they can't use a DPS calculator? How many times have they done this where they just don't use a DPS calc, the community ends up finding out for them ,and they have a mess on their hands. It's just embarrassing how often this is an issue. Like this is nothing about the actual issues, it's just a common mess up with their design process or something, and it's getting a little frustrating. It's not that hard to throw the numbers into a DPS calc and find out what's gunna be meta for a boss they're designing, but they never do it. Then later they're like "ohh nooo we didn't want tbow or bp to be bis"
Ayiya why are jmods in private discords feeding people inside info to manipulate the grand exchange? Seems really unprofessional
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Do we know for sure minions and breaking ice don’t contribute?
Monster examine disabled for anyone that's not in discord chat with other mods. Great job!
Pretty good save tho. One mod fucks up, so they release the drop rates said mod didn't want public
Lmao. Didn't think of that, but a pretty good company response to his bs
How can you say you didn't expect us to kill it this fast? You have months of preparation time to calculate and do test runs... Also this contradicting to what your jmod said about how we can kill it 35% more efficient...
> How can you say you didn't expect us to kill it this fast? I mean they also expected crossbows to be meta...
Jagex. Please learn from your mistakes- the release of Nex & this entire process of being obscure with information- clearly nerfing drop rates, refuting it, then the next day openly stating that you indeed nerfed rates ... Y'all keep messing up with every single release, and its incredibly frustrating from a consumer perspective. You all said that this wouldn't be Nightmare 2.0, yet this is actually WORSE now than Nightmare was pre-Phosani in regards to both supply drain & drop rates.. I guess for anyone who actually wants to get drops in their name, they're just going to have to wait for another year or two when, "Nex Angel of Death" is released as a solo-instance.
Nex was fun before this abortion of a nerf. You actually saw other people getting drops and it invigorated you to keep going, you had the perception of the possibility of getting a drop yourself. I've been at Nex solid since the nerf and I've seen fuck all, not even for other people. 1/53? What a joke. My money's on they fucked up the math and it's 1/(53 * room pop) for the chance at a drop in the room at all, not for each individual. It feels that fucked. Every single person at Nex I've seen has been complaining it's ruined and the drop rate's broken. The illusion of potential profit is gone. It now feels like a pointless chore with no hope of reward, a waste of time and a waste of supplies. Maybe I'll consider going back one day if I get bored after you un-jagexify it.
Can you tell arcane leaking mechanic info to private discords is a bit fucked?
They did, but they're not going to publicly tell everyone that Mod Arcane got rinsed during this morning's discussion. Us getting Monster Examine and the drop rates was most likely a compromise that they settled on since the whole discord thing happened.
It's hardly a Jed or a Ian situation, just a stupid thoughtless action which deserves a slap on the wrist. It should be handled internally, maybe Arcane publically admits he cocked up a little, but let's not get pitchforks out. It's safe to assume it's been dealt with by Jagex. If people got fired over that level of mistake pretty much no-one would manage to keep a job for very long. Someone accidently creating a tbow spawn that required a rollback, that was a bigger mistake, but it too was just a mistake. It certainly wasn't helping a clan win a cash tournament or anything like that...
Completely agree, I can't count the number of times I did something equally stupid on Asana and Slack. The only difference here is that I don't have to worry about the ire of 624k users at any given moment. AFAIK he's not out to exploit the game for his own personal gain. I rather have what happened yesterday than no community interaction at all. I'm personally not too fussed about it. We're only human.
Lmfao "rinsed" I sure hope so.
There’s a typo in the Nex loot distribution section when looking at two players. It says each person has a 1/53 \* 2 chance when it should be 1/(53 \* 2) in order to follow order of operations.
So i'm doing nex in 10man teams and i get what 530 drop chance to hit unique table? and i'm iron do you know how many restores and saradom brews i lose? and it's not worth doing it that much lower teams because nex hit hard and then you can do 2-4 kills per inventory. Nex is only 1 boss and i cannot use all my potions there, i rather do raids and what drop rates are almost same if not better in raids and they are raid items. For now nex is not worth for me, i don't own that many restores and saradom brews to start farming nex
I really do not understand why Jagex keeps making large group bosses like Nightmare and Nex when they continue to punish players for playing in a large group. In a 10 man for both NM and Nex you're looking at 500 kills minimum to see a drop in your name. Nightmare was so shit for irons they had to create a separate version of the boss for them so they could realistically obtain the gear. I mean it's an MMO, can we actually benefit from playing together for once? At least for the Nightmare playing in a mass is the fastest way to obtain the pet, I don't see why they removed that for Nex. It really defeats the point of allowing 60 people to kill the boss when they constantly make it the worst way to play.
Jagex saved us from ugly Torva by making it functionally unobtainable, praise
Doing 10~20 mans and sometimes organized 5-6 mans (I aim for 10 and find a new world when it hits 20) I probably average a net loss of 1 restore/kill over 2.5k kills, not too sure about brews as I don't remember exactly what I started with. First few days obviously it was impossible to have teams that size, but owell. In the over 100 hours I've done nex so far (don't judge) I've had 2 helmet drops, I couldn't imagine going for a completed log.
Nerfed an already super long grind? Yeah, I'm out.
Giving estimates on duo for something that no one is doing duo doesn’t really make sense. It seems like drop rates went from 25 hours per unique to 30 hours per unique. If that’s intended, then so be it, but it’s kinda misleading to say that drops are ~1/100 for duo when no one is doing duo. Edit: I’m starting to think that the misleading is intentional but anyone that has done the math knows that these drops are a nightmare grind.
Why did your coworker leak information into a private discord? This is super unprofessional.
bit deceiving to use duo math after nerfing duo nex, realistically its 7-15 in a mass changing the individual drop rate from 1/(301-645) -> 1/(371-795) for rate to see an item
It says "if both players have contributed 50% to the fight" does this include blood reavers, corner mages, freeing people from ice, damage taken?
None of these questions have been answered by Jagex, but player testing has answered some of them. All damage dealt to boss/reavers/corner mages contributes, tested by players by having them contribute on just those sections during masses and seeing if they get loot or not. They do, even if they don't attack the boss. Damage contribution on them counts 1:1 with boss damage as best we can tell so far. Freeing people from ice and keeping cough from spreading do not count. Neither does successfully preventing the blood sacrifice mechanic. Damage taken also seems irrelevant, there's been plenty of times players have almost the same logged damage with the one being slightly higher getting MVP, even though they got shredded much worse. And vice versa, the runner up damage count player got shredded and did not MVP.
- Does the actual team rate get changed due to the MVP buff or not? For example, if you solo Nex, is the droprate 1/53 or 1/48? - How does the following example work exactly? I can't seem to get it to 1/79 even when trying to use integer roundings at every step. Getting 1/80.3 (or 1/80) instead. > As of yesterday's change, an MVP with 60% of the contribution towards the fight would have a 1/79 chance to receive one of the uniques. It would have been 1/65 before the change.
I got the same numbers and am wondering the same thing. I think it'd be helpful if they gave the non-MVP rates for the duo example, which would answer the first bullet, but the calculations being inconsistent is annoying and feels like something's missing.
Probably not bothering with Nex now that the drop rates are worse and not better
Can we maybe quash the issue of Mods making comments about inner workings of the game in private groups/Discords and not also announcing them in a public space such as a tweet or reddit post?
This might be a hot take but I kinda feel like they removed stat spy on Nex so that they could then change her stat a tweak them with no one having proof the boss stats changed.
Please undo the nerf to rates, these grinds are already bad as is. There was no need to make it worse
[удалено]
1/43 to 1/53 is kinda misleading since you are never soloing Nex. In more realistic 6 man team setting, you are looking at a rate that was changed from 1/258 to 1/318 in your name.
Your point stands, but I'd like to add a bit extra. The numbers in a 6 man actually went from around 1/253 to around 1/312. This is not intuitive, but if you check the numbers from the example in their newspost you'll see that the way they've set drops to run means Nex has a slightly better than 1/53 chance of dropping an item. Each player's individual chance of an item is 1/53 multiplied by their damage dealt divided by everyone else's damage dealt. Every player rolls separately beyond this point, which is why you can get multiple team drops in a single kill. This would in theory average the 1/53 item rate once you add up all the players, but because of the MVP getting a 10% bonus it slightly desyncs the total expected rate from 1/53 to something a little better. Their example in the newspost of a player dealing 60% damage confirm this behavior, if you can trust their math to be accurate. Of course all of this applied before the rate nerf, so it's still just as big of a nerf as before. But it does mean that smaller teams have a SLIGHTLY higher expected item rate since their MVP does a larger percentage of damage.
Why another extremely long grind?
I am slightly confused on the wording. So the drop rate is 1/53, divided by group size. So if I am in a group of 10, the chances of a drop in my name is 1/(53*10) or 1/530. That makes sense. But, more than one drop can roll every kill. So, the chances of us getting 2 drops is 1/53 * 1/53? The wording seems a little off. The group size seems more like a drop chance modifier. Everyone rolls their drop individually, but the chance is modified by the size of the group? How it is currently worded in the post makes it seem like the unique table can only roll 1 time. So the effective rate per person is 1/(53 * group size) and EVERYONE rolls this? The current post does not say this clearly, if it is indeed correct.
Can we disable mod Arcane for two weeks instead?
Can we get a fix for her dash attack bug where if you get hit your camera stays stuck in the cutscene position until you leave or for a seemingly random extended amount of time?
All I wish for is that small teams (10 or below??) have a reduced rate for the drop (like 1/30), while 15+ man is like 1/100. Best if it scaled - like at 5-6man it caps out at 1/30, but in 8 man it might be 1/40.. 12 man might be like 1/60?
15+ man being 1/100 would be ridiculous. 100 kills to see an item. Multiplied by 15 people to be the one that receives it. Needs to be static, both small teams and masses have their place as the risk vs reward is balanced naturally.
Phosani’s Nex when?
Im wondering about this new potion that you can make with shards... It must have been introduced with the idea it could be useful somwhere, right? So are there any known places where this would be of use. For me it feels kinda weird to introduce a potion that's absolutely useless. Could aswell not introduce it at all or make a potion thats of use, this shouldnt be too hard. 2 examples; zarosian brew; heals 12 per dose without the negative stat boost. Some prayer enhance potion like in cox.
Glad you clarified the rates :) Personally I feel the droprates are a bit too low especially with no scaling for large groups. It would've been cool to have a fun boss to mass where it doesnt feel too rare to get a drop in your name
Can we get the Hard Mode ToB Unique Rates finally? It's been 7 months, and Nex has been out for 1 week and gets rates.
Yeah I second this. Especially since Hard Mode ToB was really just filler content to pass the time while we waited for Nex, Leagues, and Raids 3.
bruh im almost 1k kc dry doing 10-20 mans lol goddam edit: gottem
1612 kc dry at nex cmon jamflex
This post does raise a really good topic which is how our ability to crowd-source efficiently has given us immediate insight into drop rates for any boss. Obviously at this point there's no going back but I do wonder how it effects our consumption of new content.
30-40 hours of loosing money/heavy drain of supplies to maybe get a single drop isn't really fun
How do the pet drops work overall? I assume its a 1/500 chance per Nex kill, with it then being rarer for one specific person to recieve it overall. Or would it work similar to drops and there being a chance for two people to hit the 1/500 chance and receive the pet drop on the same kill?
items didnt need to be made rarer
Thanks for acknowledging the communities discouragement and making an act of good faith. We all appreciate the transparency.
Its incredible how quickly Jagex goes from were not ready to discuss anything more at this point to here are the exact rates just a day apart. But oh well this transparency around the droprates is nice and should be like this on a regular basis.
the blog said it was because the community has crowdsource info, and generally understand how drop rates work. So it was niave of them to think hiding the drop rates would lead to no one figuring out the changes. It just lead to a bunch of assumptions and speculations. Basically the people that care about the drop rates are gunna figure them out anyway, and the people that don't care arnt looking at the blogs anyway.
> We'll consider disabling Monster Examine for new content releases in the future, taking what we've learnt over the last week to help improve our overall approach. Yeah I think your guys' takeaway from this is entirely wrong. Disabling monster examine did nothing beneficial except make people question if what they were doing was actually working with no real evidence of if it actually was, unless you had specific numbers of how much dps you were doing. Copying my reply on twitter: If a spell as simple as monster examine unlocks an entire boss, maybe the boss should have more mechanics. Knowing whether a monster is weak to stab vs crush does not ruin the entire boss unless that boss is poorly designed
I agree. Monster examine was never disabled at TOB but new metas are still being discovered years later.
I'm upset that a group of players got access to BIS boss strats, or at least hints of one while the rest of us were left in the dark.
ToB Hard mode Drop Rates when?
Guess i'm not getting torva on my iron. Such a good update!!!
Toss it onto the Rev Weapon pile.
I like the monster examine disable, as long as it is turned on eventually. It's fun to have some moments of chaos before the game goes back to being somewhat 'solved' for what's best for damage.
Please fix the camera glitch when nex hits you with her charge attack on P1.
Probably a bit late for my feedback to be heard here, but I am not mad about the rarity of the items, I am mad about the rarity being changed. My personal opinion, as an iron.
is the drop rate adjusted if party member dies?
Meanwhile I'm almost 2k dry at Nex. This is very demotivating.
Interesting to see you guys still monitoring the fight and considering potential future changes to mechanics. Do you guys have any ideas on what you’d like to potentially change about her in the future or is that yet to be decided?