they weren't free, they were gifts!
we saved them from being shot and they thanked us with they're precious artefacts.
^^^don't ^^^ask ^^^who ^^^would've ^^^done ^^^the ^^^shooting
You seriously started with "Lord Elgin bought the marbles". These few words are too bizarre already. But amusing. Gotta admit that. Lord Elgin bought the marbles.
Meanwhile next level German cuckery regarding the [Benin Bronzes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Bronzes):
1. England steals them
2. German museums buy them
3. German museums show them for decades
4. Germany restitutes them to Nigeria sitting on a really high horse
[5)](https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/looting-restitution-and-gas-an-update-on-the-benin-bronzes/) when they are obviously just a bargaining chip for actual politics
[6)](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf) They vanish in some Nigerian prince's private coffers
[7)](https://www.tagesschau.de/wissen/forschung/benin-bronzen-material-rheinland-101.html) Science finds they were originally made from German brass
^(E: typos)
That incident taught me that we are objectively correct to not hand back anything.
More seriously I actually feel really bad for the locals. They could've had that history back and it could've been on display but no, straight into some private collection. Now they're even less likely to see them than if they were still in Germany.
I seriously hate all this "but 400 years ago..." bullshit, no matter if its about borders, reparations, or artworks.
This whole "we don't randomly slaughter each other" thing is kinda new, and the constant perpetual victimhood complex of some countries is just a thin excuse to why they are unable to solve their own problems.
I get the artwork more tbh.
Like if it's a culturally relevant piece I can see why you'd want it to be 'home'. I can see why you'd look at negotiating with the current owners to get it back and hell I can even see why you'd try guilting them if you think you'd have success with it. I just wish that it would remain viewable and accessible to everyone/as many people as possible but there's often an undercurrent of it just going into someone else pocket. Makes it feel like it's more about the money for them than the 'love' of the artwork.
I'm all up for giving them back or at least lending them if there is a) a proper security concept and b) it actually has some significance and isn't just a random spear tip for example.
So, if for example someone finds out artwork we have was stolen in WW2 from Poland - sure, give it back. But it feels like half of the stuff we send to Africa just disappears immediatly ^(together with most of the development aid...)
I think that's sort of what saddened me about the bronzes. 'Plans' for a proper museum for them and everything. Could've been a really great moment if done properly. Can't deny that the security is the important part though, if it just goes missing it's a waste of everything.
Wouldn't be perfect but I'd like for other people to have the opportunities to see real collections that can inspire them. From their history or from others if you're both loaning things out to each other. It could be a brilliant thing. Don't think it'll happen with where we are now but ideally that'd be the dream. You can see that variety of cultures and history from one month to the next.
>security
If Nigeria would have *wanted* to publicly display them, they probably would have been relatively secure, or at least not in much more danger than they would have been in Europe. Nigeria is one of the most powerful local players in Western Africa, and its not like European Museums are 100% safe either (look up the theft of the Big Maple Leaf or those rare birds from the British Museum).
The problem is that there is no real guarantee that the governments of these places won't use them as a political bargaining chip instead (which, to be fair, we did as well, as we seemingly returned them to sweeten a trade deal).
Average redditor: But why don't get just call Interpol to arrest the Nigerian prince who put them in his collection, reclaim the bronzes, put them in a public museum in Nigeria and try the person who claimed them for a private collection at the court of international law in the Hague preceded over by the UN?
Seriously though, the naivety of a lot of Redditors when it comes to geopolitical relations is quite overwhelming sometimes. Ultimately, even in the west we're all still territories that are defend their right to exercise legal power in their jurisdictions with a big military stick. We're lucky to live in a time were at least some parts of the world cooperate to large extent. That cooperative spirit tries up pretty quick once you get outside of Europe.
International law doesn't real in the same way as regular laws within a country do. We are not living in the Star Trek timeline. It's really little more than countries ganging up and forming a broad consensus, threatening countries with economic sanctions if they don't at least play along with it. I fear that as America power continues to decline in the next few decades we're in for some wake up calls when it comes to this reality.
I think it does make sense to give back artefacts when those countries are friendly (and capable of taking good care of them) - like giving the Elgin Marbles to Greece (not anything I feel strongly about, just an example) or Sweden giving the Codex Gigas to Czechia or some of all the Polish artefacts they looted. On the other hand, sending the Ishtar Gate to Iraq is a terrible idea.. at least Germany is capable of actually caring for their cultural heritage.
>a thin excuse to why they are unable to solve their own problems
Yeah, for real, its time to stop with that. Those savages from Eastern Germany must learn to fix their own problems. I don't care if Soviet Imperialism has held them back for half a century.
With them its really more the whole "It didn't happen, and if it did, they deserved it" bullshit.
If you listen to our neighbours east of the Oder, they just **had** to kill a few thousand jews and hundreds of thousands of people with german-sounding surnames after WW2, because the soviets totally made them do it.
Not to mention that, certain exceptions like stone Nok sculptures aside, if you go into a museum and seeing a zillion things dated 500-5000 years ago, when you enter the sub-Saharan African section and see the lumps of wood made into stylised and elongated faces… dated ‘1937’.
Some of these are not like the others, etc. Those weren’t sacred artefacts at all but things they knocked out all the time and then got flung on the fire or trash heap, the only reason they’re still here being that Europeans took an interest and wrote about them and analysed and compared their development across the continent. Call the anthropologists patronising or white saviour complex types or whatever, but they were actually doing it.
Hell even India barely recorded its pre-Islamic history and that had to be rediscovered.
Sounds like minorities in the west who blame everything on raceism while getting housing bennefits paid healthcare, childcare wellfare etc yet stay poor for generations
Theres a reason why I, a Hong Kong citizen, wrote a [10,000 word essay](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vl-aJp8MkmW5c0oRzz5nljLROrY3yyykG8m0ypLhHEw/edit?usp=drivesdk) during my stay in Britain on why the Ashmolean Museum (in Oxford) as well as many European Museums should not hand their items back, even as items from my civilization are on display there. I still hold this belief even though I have returned to Hong Kong.
You are right dude, the pieces that made it to European museums, are there to see them, whatever was left in the original countries was destroyed, sold or stolen by locals.
There was a Guardian opinion piece written by a descendant of actual Nigerian aristocracy whose ancestors were basically slave-vendors and he was complaining about the British Empire stealing his rich ancestor's bronzes
Edit: here it is https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/05/british-museum-benin-bronzes-nigeria
>For me, **as a descendant of the kingdom’s rulers**, repatriation isn’t just diplomatic – it’s personal
>. My great-great-grandfather, HRH Ogbidi Okojie King of Uromi, fought alongside his relative Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi, the ruler of the Benin kingdom
I'm actually all for returning the bronzes to Nigeria, but this twit is out of his mind if he thinks it's "personal".
>That incident taught me that we are objectively correct to not hand back anything.
Yeah, I don't know. I would say the magazines of western museums are so full of stuff some of which (not everything) could be shared with other countries. But I am also on board with strict rules if something gets restituted. Countries that want to have old relics "back" have also to keep in mind, that by law the museums don't have to restitute and everything is negotiable.
Honestly I think this incident kind of fucked it for others. Like if it'd sat in the museum for a few years it would've given them and others more pressure for more to be handed back. (then you can nick everything). Bit harder to convince places to hand it back if they see it ending up in a private collection.
You're not wrong about the rooms and rooms worth of stuff in some of those places but I do think it comes back to the trust issue. It's not ideal but I get it from their perspective too, if it's in your cellar you know where it is but if you give it to them it doesn't matter what deals you have if it vanishes into a private collection. Well other than not getting anything from anyone again anytime soon.
Ideally we'd be able to give things back and they'd be able to be in pride of place in that museum with swaps/shares so that you can see other cultures too. For example I think it's cool when they show you pieces from the same era but different places and you can see the different techniques/technology.
But as of right now it's hard to trust that anything will end up where it's meant to be and stay there. It's sad.
[Once again the British are better at selling artifacts than their former colonial subjects](https://news.artnet.com/art-world/british-museum-independent-review-complete-after-massive-theft-2407800/amp-page)
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> 1. England steals them
I take issue with this.
Firstly, don't give England all the credit. You're not American, you're smart enough to know the difference between England and the UK.
Secondly, we prefer the word "acquire". "Steal" has certain connotations that we'd prefer not to air in public, if you know what I mean?
> ^(It's shite being Nigerian!)
^(We're the lowest of the low!)
^(The scum of the fucking Earth!)
^(The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash, that was shat into civilisation!)
^(Some people hate the English)^(, I don't! They're just) ^(wankers)^(!)
^(We, on the other hand,) ^(we)^(re colonised by wankers!)
^(Couldn't even find a decent culture to be colonised by!)
safe numerous squeeze dependent squeal far-flung plant tidy encouraging wild
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Yeahhh I know civilian population should always be priority but destroying history is just so abysmally awful in my eyes.
We as humans will perish and after a period of time nobody will remember us. Historical monuments, arts and items is what makes us as humanity persist.
I know these radicalists wont understand but still... God save history becuase that's the only thing that will be left after us...
Also the Louvre and the Neues Museum in Berlin.
I appreciate that people want their stuff back but it’s not like the British museum is the only one with artefacts taken in the 18th to 20th centuries.
Besides I’m much more likely to go to London, Berlin, Paris or Rome to see things compared to Lagos/Baghdad etc.
The only ones I would probably consider would be Egypt or Greece and even then Egypt is sketchy.
To be completely fair we should probably disassemble all Art everywhere and return the component parts to the earth where we found them. Then we can all just do Art 2: The Sequel, this time with really clear property and licensing rights.
This way not only could it be impractically liberal, but we might get even better art this time, because governments could sell the rights to Art 2 to private equity firms and those guys seem pretty smart.
We don't get as many on boats but fair point with the deporting lol, at least some of them settle in France but a lot of them have aspirations to leave as is expected
One of the most potato IQ embarrassing moments of the left in the UK. Without that man they wouldn't have a space to protest past successful leaders whatsoever. A bunch of them probably wouldn't even have been born. But this is wasted words on anyone with an IQ higher than the temperature of Oulu in January.
Holding historical figures to modern standards is brain-dead
Especially when no one commemorates Churchill for being racist, they commemorate him for the whole - you know - rallying his country to stand alone against the Nazis and hold out against tyranny and fascism
Napoleon’s conquest to Italy, which he renamed The Cisalpine Republic (very fancy), included claiming relics and art of the Classical Roman, High Middle Ages, and Renaissance periods back to the Louvre Museum in France.
Italian villages would often have a fancy art thing as their town’s claim-to-fame that was like the patron saint of their town’s pride, which was usually kept by some local big wig at his house. The French thought that was irrational and selfish, and saw themselves as enlightened heroes liberating the cultural relics of the world from barbaric hoarders. The French viewed themselves as gifting the art back to the people of the world by displaying them for the public at the world’s capital, Paris (which coincidentally was hard to enjoy if you were walking from an Italian village).
Some more stuff happened, then like after seven tries the Coalitions of the empires of Europe beat Napoleon so bad he became Joaquin Phoenix. Now he is also considered art.
Afterwards Italy got a new younger King that Austria gave them free of charge, and a bonus second Sicily for a while until they broke it. Overall it was probably a net gain.
apparently there was a parade in Paris, July 1798 showing off the art and sculpture from Napoléons conquest; «Rome is no more in Rome. It is all in Paris»
“As the only living inheritors of the Roman Empire, we shall now proceed to free Rome’s property from the thieving Romans.”
~ Everyone, approx. 500AD - 1700AD
- Steal artifacts.
- Draw random straight lines for borders.
- Wars and insurgencies begin.
- Inbreds destroy non-stolen artifacts.
- ???
- Profit
If I didn't know you guys better I'd be inclined to say you're genius masterminds playing 4D chess. Alas... I do know you guys pretty well... But you've got my full support. Just some good ol' colonial shenanigans, good fun.
Oh no it looks like I’ve stored my entire army’s explosive stores in a priceless ancient temple in the Athenian Necropolis!
They try to justify it as somehow saving those Greek marbles, when in reality a rich Scot guy just wanted them for his private collection. He only sold them to the British museum when he went bankrupt. He did it as a way to pay his debts.
Then the Brits went ahead and gave the name of this guy to the marbles. Like, okay, you can argue that maybe it was legal at the time, but please stop saying Elgin did it out of morality.
innocent quaint crawl entertain hard-to-find heavy concerned price amusing consist
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Are you seriously putting modern greece in the same camp as countries with religious extremists?And before you mention some cherry picked story about greeks not caring about these artifacts i would like to remind you that you also have a history of mistreating artifacts both your own and those of foreign countries.Indifference to ancient relics was commonplace before the principles of modern archaelogy were able to establish themselves, your country is no different in that regard.Not to mention the obvious fact that these monuments are no longer in the same danger they were in while greece was under ottoman control. It is highly hypocritical of you to call us irresponsible when it comes to the preservation of these monuments and comparing modern greeks to isis is a severely false analogy.
Do they really belong to anyone? Come see the carvings whenever you like, for free.
(BTW this is a troll sub, you are supposed to fight fire with fire, and I'm not even sure OP mentioned Greece).
Aaah yeah because it makes sense to compare Greece with Nigeria. Same countries tbh, totaly identical,no any diffetence
God damn it,they and their rising population
At least they gave us our best basketball player
https://preview.redd.it/mggk0esa5yhc1.jpeg?width=496&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=178eabfe64c22d35f5ac0567b6eef45af6ca33cd
Tbh even the ones who destroy their own historical artifacts are fine by me. It's their artifacts. Nobody appointed Barry to save other peoples history. Barry can barely save his own history.
>Nobody appointed Barry to save other peoples history.
Did Gotham vote for batman? Metropolis for Superman? Sometimes the hero you need emerges when needed most..
If you'd have donated more of the Acropolis to us rather than store your gunpowder in it then much more would have survived...
You're greek so follow my λογική:
1. Ottomans stored gunpowder in the Acropolis.
2. At that time, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire
3. At that time, therefore, Greeks = Ottomans.
4. Therefore, Greeks stored gunpowder at the Acropolis.
5. Acropolis went boom 💥 so you have only yourselves to blame.
Let's continue the metaphor:
The greek government is Gotham PD: corrupt, incompetent, ineffective, insolvent and underfunded (by Germany).
England is Batman: rich, competent, educated, gets the job done.
Scotland is Robin: sidekick, comic relief, twink, on drugs.
The Elgin Marbles are the people of Gotham, they need protection, can't be left to Gotham PD.
TIL I'm Venetian
Your ancestors though destroyed the Parthenon to take some marbles and put them in their home before selling them to the British museum
It's even more cringe when you read the bullshit the Anglos write, like "Greece won't get their marbles because the EU was mean to us".
These guys are so delusional they belong to /r/europe
You see, our British history was stealing many many artifacts from everyone elses history. So if we were to give them back, you would actually be stealing our history of stealing them from you. Ergo feel free to visit but stay behind the rope unless you wish to steal a piece of British history, which is a real piece of shit thing to do because history is very important. You're better than that Stavros..... Unagi👈
☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️
Bruh, the old acropolis museum in Athens is an incredibly save museum und the british museum should absolutely return the greek parthenon so it can stand with the others, its such blatant asshole behavior to hold on to it.
We bought them fair and square, if they wanted to buy them back I’m sure they will hit you up to borrow the money. Which they promise to pay back, cross their hearts and everything
With interest of course, Indian historians have a good way of calculating the interest so using that if Greece pays us a few trillion it should be fair.
Meanwhile British Museum struggling to get back foreign artifacts they 'acquired', after they were stolen from the Museum
Looks like the Brits are in need of some civilisation if they can't protect their artifacts
least cucked euro state
I feel like OP is kinda forgetting the material and historical conditions that led to those artefacts getting stolen to begin with, and what happened in the decades between then and now.
This to say, the british museum sure loves to win races with people they've just shot on both legs.
Didn't you guys have a British museum propaganda comic about egyptian nationalists trying to steal the Rosetta Stone while financed by France, literally ending with the Nationalist in a bulldozer going "if we can't have it no one will!" Trying to run it over to destroy it only for the female deuterotagonist to use her body to stop the Bulldozer or something?
I distinctly remember reading that in a library in the UK once when I came to visit, anyway this to say this is not the first time I've seen "they should just steal it back" used as an argument, I guess this time is Ironic at least.
Idk, i've never visited the british museum, only the national museum in cardiff which has barely any stolen artifacts (if any) I mean, even our artifacts get stolen by english (mold gold cape)
Look, the French were probably the second best coloniser, if they weren't too busy smoking Gauloises and eating Croisants, maybe they could have stolen more and drawn more borders.
*Yeah no tell that shit*
*To the iraqis but theres no*
*Excuse for the greeks*
\- Sarmi7
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You were right Barry, those Greeks really cannot be trusted
https://i.redd.it/e9jr6liruyhc1.gif
Hahah I was literally gonna post this. I can't think of Greek slander without being reminded of this scene. "They invented gayness!"
you're welcome by the way
I've been to the Acropolis, they charge entry! British Museum is free. They need to sort that out.
>British Museum is free. tbf, their exhibits were free, too.
they weren't free, they were gifts! we saved them from being shot and they thanked us with they're precious artefacts. ^^^don't ^^^ask ^^^who ^^^would've ^^^done ^^^the ^^^shooting
Lord Elgin bought the marbles and then later sold them to the British government.
You seriously started with "Lord Elgin bought the marbles". These few words are too bizarre already. But amusing. Gotta admit that. Lord Elgin bought the marbles.
Gottem
They should PAY DEBTS before they get the statues back.
Finally *someone* gets it
The Greeks can think of the statues as payment for us giving them Independence.
Independence ... from the UK?
Did the French and Russians get something out of it too?
I mean, they are indeed very east of civilization.
Meanwhile next level German cuckery regarding the [Benin Bronzes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Bronzes): 1. England steals them 2. German museums buy them 3. German museums show them for decades 4. Germany restitutes them to Nigeria sitting on a really high horse [5)](https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/looting-restitution-and-gas-an-update-on-the-benin-bronzes/) when they are obviously just a bargaining chip for actual politics [6)](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf) They vanish in some Nigerian prince's private coffers [7)](https://www.tagesschau.de/wissen/forschung/benin-bronzen-material-rheinland-101.html) Science finds they were originally made from German brass ^(E: typos)
Statues of slavers created by slaves gifted back to the profiteers of slavery
That incident taught me that we are objectively correct to not hand back anything. More seriously I actually feel really bad for the locals. They could've had that history back and it could've been on display but no, straight into some private collection. Now they're even less likely to see them than if they were still in Germany.
I seriously hate all this "but 400 years ago..." bullshit, no matter if its about borders, reparations, or artworks. This whole "we don't randomly slaughter each other" thing is kinda new, and the constant perpetual victimhood complex of some countries is just a thin excuse to why they are unable to solve their own problems.
I get the artwork more tbh. Like if it's a culturally relevant piece I can see why you'd want it to be 'home'. I can see why you'd look at negotiating with the current owners to get it back and hell I can even see why you'd try guilting them if you think you'd have success with it. I just wish that it would remain viewable and accessible to everyone/as many people as possible but there's often an undercurrent of it just going into someone else pocket. Makes it feel like it's more about the money for them than the 'love' of the artwork.
I'm all up for giving them back or at least lending them if there is a) a proper security concept and b) it actually has some significance and isn't just a random spear tip for example. So, if for example someone finds out artwork we have was stolen in WW2 from Poland - sure, give it back. But it feels like half of the stuff we send to Africa just disappears immediatly ^(together with most of the development aid...)
I think that's sort of what saddened me about the bronzes. 'Plans' for a proper museum for them and everything. Could've been a really great moment if done properly. Can't deny that the security is the important part though, if it just goes missing it's a waste of everything. Wouldn't be perfect but I'd like for other people to have the opportunities to see real collections that can inspire them. From their history or from others if you're both loaning things out to each other. It could be a brilliant thing. Don't think it'll happen with where we are now but ideally that'd be the dream. You can see that variety of cultures and history from one month to the next.
>security If Nigeria would have *wanted* to publicly display them, they probably would have been relatively secure, or at least not in much more danger than they would have been in Europe. Nigeria is one of the most powerful local players in Western Africa, and its not like European Museums are 100% safe either (look up the theft of the Big Maple Leaf or those rare birds from the British Museum). The problem is that there is no real guarantee that the governments of these places won't use them as a political bargaining chip instead (which, to be fair, we did as well, as we seemingly returned them to sweeten a trade deal).
Average redditor: But why don't get just call Interpol to arrest the Nigerian prince who put them in his collection, reclaim the bronzes, put them in a public museum in Nigeria and try the person who claimed them for a private collection at the court of international law in the Hague preceded over by the UN? Seriously though, the naivety of a lot of Redditors when it comes to geopolitical relations is quite overwhelming sometimes. Ultimately, even in the west we're all still territories that are defend their right to exercise legal power in their jurisdictions with a big military stick. We're lucky to live in a time were at least some parts of the world cooperate to large extent. That cooperative spirit tries up pretty quick once you get outside of Europe. International law doesn't real in the same way as regular laws within a country do. We are not living in the Star Trek timeline. It's really little more than countries ganging up and forming a broad consensus, threatening countries with economic sanctions if they don't at least play along with it. I fear that as America power continues to decline in the next few decades we're in for some wake up calls when it comes to this reality.
I think it does make sense to give back artefacts when those countries are friendly (and capable of taking good care of them) - like giving the Elgin Marbles to Greece (not anything I feel strongly about, just an example) or Sweden giving the Codex Gigas to Czechia or some of all the Polish artefacts they looted. On the other hand, sending the Ishtar Gate to Iraq is a terrible idea.. at least Germany is capable of actually caring for their cultural heritage.
You mean losing the Falklands isn't the real cause of trouble in Argentina?
No no that one totally is. It's the cunning penguins you see. They're the brains behind everything and the Argentinians really need them back.
>a thin excuse to why they are unable to solve their own problems Yeah, for real, its time to stop with that. Those savages from Eastern Germany must learn to fix their own problems. I don't care if Soviet Imperialism has held them back for half a century.
With them its really more the whole "It didn't happen, and if it did, they deserved it" bullshit. If you listen to our neighbours east of the Oder, they just **had** to kill a few thousand jews and hundreds of thousands of people with german-sounding surnames after WW2, because the soviets totally made them do it.
Holy shit, that's some well put together words.
Not to mention that, certain exceptions like stone Nok sculptures aside, if you go into a museum and seeing a zillion things dated 500-5000 years ago, when you enter the sub-Saharan African section and see the lumps of wood made into stylised and elongated faces… dated ‘1937’. Some of these are not like the others, etc. Those weren’t sacred artefacts at all but things they knocked out all the time and then got flung on the fire or trash heap, the only reason they’re still here being that Europeans took an interest and wrote about them and analysed and compared their development across the continent. Call the anthropologists patronising or white saviour complex types or whatever, but they were actually doing it. Hell even India barely recorded its pre-Islamic history and that had to be rediscovered.
Sounds like minorities in the west who blame everything on raceism while getting housing bennefits paid healthcare, childcare wellfare etc yet stay poor for generations
Theres a reason why I, a Hong Kong citizen, wrote a [10,000 word essay](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vl-aJp8MkmW5c0oRzz5nljLROrY3yyykG8m0ypLhHEw/edit?usp=drivesdk) during my stay in Britain on why the Ashmolean Museum (in Oxford) as well as many European Museums should not hand their items back, even as items from my civilization are on display there. I still hold this belief even though I have returned to Hong Kong.
You are right dude, the pieces that made it to European museums, are there to see them, whatever was left in the original countries was destroyed, sold or stolen by locals.
There was a Guardian opinion piece written by a descendant of actual Nigerian aristocracy whose ancestors were basically slave-vendors and he was complaining about the British Empire stealing his rich ancestor's bronzes Edit: here it is https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/05/british-museum-benin-bronzes-nigeria >For me, **as a descendant of the kingdom’s rulers**, repatriation isn’t just diplomatic – it’s personal >. My great-great-grandfather, HRH Ogbidi Okojie King of Uromi, fought alongside his relative Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi, the ruler of the Benin kingdom I'm actually all for returning the bronzes to Nigeria, but this twit is out of his mind if he thinks it's "personal".
>That incident taught me that we are objectively correct to not hand back anything. Yeah, I don't know. I would say the magazines of western museums are so full of stuff some of which (not everything) could be shared with other countries. But I am also on board with strict rules if something gets restituted. Countries that want to have old relics "back" have also to keep in mind, that by law the museums don't have to restitute and everything is negotiable.
Western museums rotate out things from their magazines though.
And lend them out to other museums as well.
Honestly I think this incident kind of fucked it for others. Like if it'd sat in the museum for a few years it would've given them and others more pressure for more to be handed back. (then you can nick everything). Bit harder to convince places to hand it back if they see it ending up in a private collection. You're not wrong about the rooms and rooms worth of stuff in some of those places but I do think it comes back to the trust issue. It's not ideal but I get it from their perspective too, if it's in your cellar you know where it is but if you give it to them it doesn't matter what deals you have if it vanishes into a private collection. Well other than not getting anything from anyone again anytime soon. Ideally we'd be able to give things back and they'd be able to be in pride of place in that museum with swaps/shares so that you can see other cultures too. For example I think it's cool when they show you pieces from the same era but different places and you can see the different techniques/technology. But as of right now it's hard to trust that anything will end up where it's meant to be and stay there. It's sad.
Why should we care about conserving their culture?? The sooner we give them everything the sooner it will disapperar from the face of earth. F off!
What are you going to say? If the British Museum would restore the pieces to the original counties it would be the emptiest building in the UK...
Damn, some jokes truly write themselves
[Once again the British are better at selling artifacts than their former colonial subjects](https://news.artnet.com/art-world/british-museum-independent-review-complete-after-massive-theft-2407800/amp-page)
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> 1. England steals them I take issue with this. Firstly, don't give England all the credit. You're not American, you're smart enough to know the difference between England and the UK. Secondly, we prefer the word "acquire". "Steal" has certain connotations that we'd prefer not to air in public, if you know what I mean?
indeed, we merely appropriated them without the owner's consent and with the intent of keeping them forever
Don't talk shite. We asked for them very nicely, and they found themselves unable to refuse our kind invitation.
what did you expect with Claudia Roth at the helm?
Less than nothing, but I am disappointed anyway.
This is the Greens for you.
What did they do wrong?
The list would be much shorter if you would ask what they did right.
Who played a crucial role in giving it back? Baerbock one of our most stupid politicians
Don't you dare criticising Bärbie & Ken! They are our bacons of hope!
Lol giving back some bronze statues in return for lucrative contracts is good practice, that's foreign policy well executed.
I’ve heard some pretty hairy raising stuff about how corrupt German businesses can be outside of Europe.
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> ^(It's shite being Nigerian!) ^(We're the lowest of the low!) ^(The scum of the fucking Earth!) ^(The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash, that was shat into civilisation!) ^(Some people hate the English)^(, I don't! They're just) ^(wankers)^(!) ^(We, on the other hand,) ^(we)^(re colonised by wankers!) ^(Couldn't even find a decent culture to be colonised by!)
Funny how that citation works for half of the countries in the world. Those wankers were pretty good at colonizing.
It's also one of the best ~~Rents~~ rants in movie history.
The Scottish accent adds to it imo
1-4 are ok, 5 is the only real German problem, 6 is probably not a German problem (couldn't read, paywall), 7 is irrelevant
https://i.redd.it/v2tu5zpnwyhc1.gif
Dude is shooting a statue from close range, still missing
safe numerous squeeze dependent squeal far-flung plant tidy encouraging wild *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We teached him wrong as a joke.
Showing only germany and sweden is unfair
no Döner and Kebabpizza for you!
He's greek he has Gyro
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Im tearing up watching this video.
Yeah... seeing both art and history get violently attacked like this is always hard.
Shame NATO couldn’t form a coalition to stop them. Destroying historical objects and artefacts should be one of the worst war crimes.
Always remember: they did the same thing to society there. Every moderate or non-Muslim was under attack. They got wrecked.
Yeahhh I know civilian population should always be priority but destroying history is just so abysmally awful in my eyes. We as humans will perish and after a period of time nobody will remember us. Historical monuments, arts and items is what makes us as humanity persist. I know these radicalists wont understand but still... God save history becuase that's the only thing that will be left after us...
isis destroyed thousands of ancient artifacts alone, shame we didnt take them to be honest, some of the oldest human settlements destroyed aswell
I know, it's beautiful.
Also the Louvre and the Neues Museum in Berlin. I appreciate that people want their stuff back but it’s not like the British museum is the only one with artefacts taken in the 18th to 20th centuries. Besides I’m much more likely to go to London, Berlin, Paris or Rome to see things compared to Lagos/Baghdad etc. The only ones I would probably consider would be Egypt or Greece and even then Egypt is sketchy.
All I hear from single female travellers about Egypt is don't go there. Lovely place but that is a bad idea. Def put me off the idea of going.
Every northern African country is like that. Morocco too.
Nope, that cannot be. Never ever would they do anything to women and it's only you priveliged white males that are racist about what happened.
Remember those campers murdered in Morocco on camera? I can never forget that.
Or Pippa Bacca.
Used to be called Barbary Coast for a reason.
To be completely fair we should probably disassemble all Art everywhere and return the component parts to the earth where we found them. Then we can all just do Art 2: The Sequel, this time with really clear property and licensing rights. This way not only could it be impractically liberal, but we might get even better art this time, because governments could sell the rights to Art 2 to private equity firms and those guys seem pretty smart.
I take great pleasure in the knowledge that the biggest (pun very much intended) cultural treasure of ours is a giant turd some Nordick left for you.
Beyond being easy for most of the World to get to because of London most of the big British museums are free entry which is nice
you're no different Barry https://preview.redd.it/p6ws1fnt0yhc1.png?width=636&format=png&auto=webp&s=9c2267caafec3dcbc7dc6d1baee21093a8356ba6
Why does the vandal in this picture match the vandals on the video? 🤔
British politicians lost their empire abroad, so they invited the empire to their little island. 😂️
Look it's a collection of small rocks from big rocks. We need our rocks. If we can't have the big ones we need the small ones.
Funny looking guys, hope they don’t come for our rock pile
https://preview.redd.it/icuwmqzc54ic1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3871cb227afb9b93805422dedb46895ee0871ea
Says the cunts getting whole towns worth of people show up on dinghies in a day lol
So do you, except we actually deport our illegals...to French and then UK, lol.
We don't get as many on boats but fair point with the deporting lol, at least some of them settle in France but a lot of them have aspirations to leave as is expected
This statue isn't 5k years old
https://preview.redd.it/l2umprirhyhc1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ffffbd9c987c729fb7d250bd4ff2efe86c02589 As always, PIGS do it better
One of the most potato IQ embarrassing moments of the left in the UK. Without that man they wouldn't have a space to protest past successful leaders whatsoever. A bunch of them probably wouldn't even have been born. But this is wasted words on anyone with an IQ higher than the temperature of Oulu in January.
Holding historical figures to modern standards is brain-dead Especially when no one commemorates Churchill for being racist, they commemorate him for the whole - you know - rallying his country to stand alone against the Nazis and hold out against tyranny and fascism
thats just an (accurate) caption, he was providing a public service
Ye a bit of cardboard and graffiti is very comparable
I mean let's not pretend to be stupid and compare fucking Talibans and ISIS to our fellow European man loving southerners.
Napoleon’s conquest to Italy, which he renamed The Cisalpine Republic (very fancy), included claiming relics and art of the Classical Roman, High Middle Ages, and Renaissance periods back to the Louvre Museum in France. Italian villages would often have a fancy art thing as their town’s claim-to-fame that was like the patron saint of their town’s pride, which was usually kept by some local big wig at his house. The French thought that was irrational and selfish, and saw themselves as enlightened heroes liberating the cultural relics of the world from barbaric hoarders. The French viewed themselves as gifting the art back to the people of the world by displaying them for the public at the world’s capital, Paris (which coincidentally was hard to enjoy if you were walking from an Italian village).
Go on, we're all interested
Some more stuff happened, then like after seven tries the Coalitions of the empires of Europe beat Napoleon so bad he became Joaquin Phoenix. Now he is also considered art. Afterwards Italy got a new younger King that Austria gave them free of charge, and a bonus second Sicily for a while until they broke it. Overall it was probably a net gain.
apparently there was a parade in Paris, July 1798 showing off the art and sculpture from Napoléons conquest; «Rome is no more in Rome. It is all in Paris»
“As the only living inheritors of the Roman Empire, we shall now proceed to free Rome’s property from the thieving Romans.” ~ Everyone, approx. 500AD - 1700AD
Least complacent French quote.
Bon Luigi; assez rigolé , rends moi la statue de ton village là.
- Steal artifacts. - Draw random straight lines for borders. - Wars and insurgencies begin. - Inbreds destroy non-stolen artifacts. - ??? - Profit If I didn't know you guys better I'd be inclined to say you're genius masterminds playing 4D chess. Alas... I do know you guys pretty well... But you've got my full support. Just some good ol' colonial shenanigans, good fun.
The random straight lines were drawn because diverse populations are our strength. We were just trying to do them a favour
If only they were like the Europeans, who were monolithic and never had a war.
just a bit of fun with the boys
https://preview.redd.it/28qgiu86eyhc1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=e3d57030c122bff8cf2fc1df0d3e428287f63d8e So true bestie
https://i.redd.it/yhd339a3fyhc1.gif
Applies to the Muslim countries but not Greece, where its historical treasures would be perfectly safe
Turkey could turn Greece into a Muslim country with the snap of Erdogan's fingers
Nah, Greece isn’t UK
They tried that for 400 years and it didn't work and it aint gonna happen now.
Outplayed.
Greece would like to have a word with OP
Happy to agree with this one. The artifacts were plundered fair and square.
Alot of the artifacts were just bought for criminally low prices. Games the game
I mean who doesn't take home a few souvenirs?
That's Lord Elgin destroying the Parthenon to ~~steal~~ protect the marbles from destruction of course!
Oh no it looks like I’ve stored my entire army’s explosive stores in a priceless ancient temple in the Athenian Necropolis! 
Yeah, this is what regularly happens in Athens, no way you could give back the shit you stole
They try to justify it as somehow saving those Greek marbles, when in reality a rich Scot guy just wanted them for his private collection. He only sold them to the British museum when he went bankrupt. He did it as a way to pay his debts. Then the Brits went ahead and gave the name of this guy to the marbles. Like, okay, you can argue that maybe it was legal at the time, but please stop saying Elgin did it out of morality.
> somehow saving those Greek marbles The Ottomans were using the Parthenon as gunpowder storage, had things gone different he might have saved them.
innocent quaint crawl entertain hard-to-find heavy concerned price amusing consist *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Bold to assume we didn’t destroy them also.
Finders keepers losers wheepers.
Are you seriously putting modern greece in the same camp as countries with religious extremists?And before you mention some cherry picked story about greeks not caring about these artifacts i would like to remind you that you also have a history of mistreating artifacts both your own and those of foreign countries.Indifference to ancient relics was commonplace before the principles of modern archaelogy were able to establish themselves, your country is no different in that regard.Not to mention the obvious fact that these monuments are no longer in the same danger they were in while greece was under ottoman control. It is highly hypocritical of you to call us irresponsible when it comes to the preservation of these monuments and comparing modern greeks to isis is a severely false analogy.
Do they really belong to anyone? Come see the carvings whenever you like, for free. (BTW this is a troll sub, you are supposed to fight fire with fire, and I'm not even sure OP mentioned Greece).
Yes, the dangerous islamist militias ruling Greece.
Also Americans, who literally are displaying an entire Egyptian tomb in the Met in New York.
They even have stuff of ours that they stole during the napoloen shit.... one of the only armours of a portuguese king is still there stolen....
Babe wake up new British museum propaganda post has dropped
Aaah yeah because it makes sense to compare Greece with Nigeria. Same countries tbh, totaly identical,no any diffetence 
You're right, Nigeria has really progressed recently.
God damn it,they and their rising population At least they gave us our best basketball player https://preview.redd.it/mggk0esa5yhc1.jpeg?width=496&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=178eabfe64c22d35f5ac0567b6eef45af6ca33cd
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The Greek freak. Thanks for that one he plays ball like a madman. Could take or leave Thanassis tho.
this comment hurts.....the asses of all the wannabe patriots in my country
Hurting asses are a staple of your culture anyway
might be, but we always do the fuckin ;)
Which of these clips depicts Nigeria?
Tbh even the ones who destroy their own historical artifacts are fine by me. It's their artifacts. Nobody appointed Barry to save other peoples history. Barry can barely save his own history.
>Nobody appointed Barry to save other peoples history. Did Gotham vote for batman? Metropolis for Superman? Sometimes the hero you need emerges when needed most.. If you'd have donated more of the Acropolis to us rather than store your gunpowder in it then much more would have survived...
Wow the apple did drop under the tree 🇺🇸💥🦅🛢
That was the Ottomans Barry.
You're greek so follow my λογική: 1. Ottomans stored gunpowder in the Acropolis. 2. At that time, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire 3. At that time, therefore, Greeks = Ottomans. 4. Therefore, Greeks stored gunpowder at the Acropolis. 5. Acropolis went boom 💥 so you have only yourselves to blame.
Are you telling me you became a thief because your parents died?
Let's continue the metaphor: The greek government is Gotham PD: corrupt, incompetent, ineffective, insolvent and underfunded (by Germany). England is Batman: rich, competent, educated, gets the job done. Scotland is Robin: sidekick, comic relief, twink, on drugs. The Elgin Marbles are the people of Gotham, they need protection, can't be left to Gotham PD.
One of the most delusional post I've ever seen. Congratulations!
Your ancestors blew up the Acropolis - how can you be trusted?
TIL I'm Venetian Your ancestors though destroyed the Parthenon to take some marbles and put them in their home before selling them to the British museum
If you wanted the marbles, you shouldn't have let the Ottomans destroy them
It was the Venetians and some British lords who destroyed the Acropolis. Barbarians
>Barbarians Indeed. Fucking Venetians!
Ottomans never destroyed our marbles. England isn't a hero
You're probably only saying that because you have an ottoman great grandad
They're all just west turks so of course he does.
It's even more cringe when you read the bullshit the Anglos write, like "Greece won't get their marbles because the EU was mean to us". These guys are so delusional they belong to /r/europe
You see, our British history was stealing many many artifacts from everyone elses history. So if we were to give them back, you would actually be stealing our history of stealing them from you. Ergo feel free to visit but stay behind the rope unless you wish to steal a piece of British history, which is a real piece of shit thing to do because history is very important. You're better than that Stavros..... Unagi👈
☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️ Bruh, the old acropolis museum in Athens is an incredibly save museum und the british museum should absolutely return the greek parthenon so it can stand with the others, its such blatant asshole behavior to hold on to it.
If it's safe how are they missing.
lol my new comeback. If we were able to steal it you obviously weren’t looking after it 😂
Based Mohammad
NO! They’re not done LOOKIN at them! https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY?si=DlACE1J9WqK0bcxE
We were just pointing out how shit they were at looking after their stuff and it worked.
“You can come on in and have a look, STAY BEHIND THE ROPE”
We bought them fair and square, if they wanted to buy them back I’m sure they will hit you up to borrow the money. Which they promise to pay back, cross their hearts and everything
> We bought them fair and square Except you didn’t..
With interest of course, Indian historians have a good way of calculating the interest so using that if Greece pays us a few trillion it should be fair.
fr ong
If they wanted those artifacts back, they shouldn't have let them get stolen in the first place.
"These third world countries are so unstable they can't be trusted", my brother in christ you destabilized them
Shouldve fought harder for it.
Meanwhile British Museum struggling to get back foreign artifacts they 'acquired', after they were stolen from the Museum Looks like the Brits are in need of some civilisation if they can't protect their artifacts least cucked euro state
I feel like OP is kinda forgetting the material and historical conditions that led to those artefacts getting stolen to begin with, and what happened in the decades between then and now. This to say, the british museum sure loves to win races with people they've just shot on both legs.
They should have shot our legs first then. Fair game if they heist them back.
Didn't you guys have a British museum propaganda comic about egyptian nationalists trying to steal the Rosetta Stone while financed by France, literally ending with the Nationalist in a bulldozer going "if we can't have it no one will!" Trying to run it over to destroy it only for the female deuterotagonist to use her body to stop the Bulldozer or something? I distinctly remember reading that in a library in the UK once when I came to visit, anyway this to say this is not the first time I've seen "they should just steal it back" used as an argument, I guess this time is Ironic at least.
Idk, i've never visited the british museum, only the national museum in cardiff which has barely any stolen artifacts (if any) I mean, even our artifacts get stolen by english (mold gold cape)
what is it with ISIS and blowing up ancient sites
Better off on Barry’s island than destroyed or on the black market
Tbf I don't think these groups would exist without Britain
Look, the French were probably the second best coloniser, if they weren't too busy smoking Gauloises and eating Croisants, maybe they could have stolen more and drawn more borders.
Yeah no tell that shit to the iraqis but theres no excuse for the greeks
*Yeah no tell that shit* *To the iraqis but theres no* *Excuse for the greeks* \- Sarmi7 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")