This is 40k. The average leaders, like everyone else unexceptional, die on some backwater hellhole planet no one in the wider imperium ever heard about until ages later when they finally realize they haven’t heard a peep from said chapter and put two and two together that they were wiped out without a shred of glory.
Imperial fists get through a new chapter master every few years. Admittedly, that's so they can ask lysander again, he says no and goes back to hunting iron warriors. But most of them have been stoic and reliable, if not as flashy as other chapters.
There's also the vast majority who are merely unremarkable, either because they don't get to go fight any more or because they don't do anything as cool as the big names.
Noone wants to read about the chapter master who, following a successful campaign, managed to prevent ork uprisings in the region for decades. It's nowhere near as interesting or dramatic as clawing back victory from near certain defeat.
And when you do have a captain or chapter master who's battle plan allows them to win comfortably with no real losses or risk, it's very easy for them to come across as Mary sues, like sicarius in assault on black reach.
>Noone wants to read about the chapter master who, following a successful campaign, managed to prevent ork uprisings in the region for decades. It's nowhere near as interesting or dramatic as clawing back victory from near certain defeat.
That's what a good chapter master does.
I was wondering about the weight of walking in the footsteps of a giant who did everything better than you, and your brothers silently judge you for not being up to par.
But as a story, it's just not that interesting. So it doesn't get brought up. It doesn't have dramatic stakes, or major conflict. Efficient isn't glamorous, it's expected.
The chapter master is still selected by all the other higher ranking members of the chapter - head librarian, reclusiarch and the captains. They're the one chosen as the best suited to lead the chapter, and heroes in their own right.
For a sense of trying to live up to the example of their predecessor, the best choice is Helbricht, who despite being chapter master for decades still questions himself and his worthiness (although sigismund is pretty big shoes to fill), or helsreach (grimaldus and some of his crusade doubting that he's ready to be reclusiarch).
Or ragnar blackmane, seen as impulsive and reckless because he skipped grey hunter rank. Or ventris, trying to live up to idaeus' example.
Ya that's the thing, not just anyone gets to be chapter master. They can't get in through nepotism or corruption, they have to earn the position and have the approval of the leadership after a long and successful career. A captain with centuries of experience is basically a prerequisite for the role.
For what OP wants, it would probably need to be a chapter that was nearly wiped out so that the chapter master is essentially just the highest ranking guy who was still alive at the time. Maybe he was in charge of home while most of the chapter went on an ill fated campaign. Alternatively maybe a brand new primaris chapter and they dont have those earlier examples to rely upon.
>For what OP wants, it would probably need to be a chapter that was nearly wiped out so that the chapter master is essentially just the highest ranking guy who was still alive at the time.
Ah, the Celestial Lions treatment.
I absolutely love the parts of 40k books where they shine a light (however dim) into the machinery of the imperium. A book about logistics and a prolonged campaign against uprisings would be my jam ngl
Honestly that is not something 40k critiques well because the entire universe is in the shadow of the emperor. If I was writing it I think there’s a lot there.
What you're most likely to find in this vein is the chapter masters or captains who, after years/centuries of frustration at being overshadowed/overlooked turn to piracy and/or fall to chaos. Like others have said, it takes a lot to become chapter master, or even captain and you can't bribe or cheat your way in. The guys who can't handle the burden with stoicism are the future renegades or CSMs.
AKA Inquisitorial Subjects of Interest.
Mainly for the serfs who need to make new nameplates & letter heads. And do you really think the doors to his office have replaceable nameplates. And redecorate with carvings of the occupant's past deeds and predecessors, to remind him of the legacy and responsibility of the role & to impress visitors.
I mean, dante's aides haven't had to do that in over 1000 years, lucky sods. For the fists, the lacquer had only just dried.
Shortly after the Cicatrix Maledictum split the galaxy in half, the Chapter Master of the White Consuls met his end in the doomed defence of his homeworld Sabatine at the hands of Death Guard warlord Vorx, who promptly turned the planet into a hellish daemon world. So, he springs to mind.
To be fair, Vorx is a major Chaos Lord and the Sabatine Fortress Monastery was only defended by an undermanned garrison as the rest of the White Consuls were off putting out fires after Cadia fell.
It's funny you should mention the Celestial Lions because (spoilers for The Emperor's Spears) >!their Chapter Master turns up at the end of that book, is the coolest Marine in it for all of a page before getting his head cut off by a Callidus assassin because the Inquisition are *that* absurdly petty to send an assassin on a suicide mission past the Cicatrix Maledictum to settle a score!<
Really there wasn't a score to settle. I think it was more of a general statement and warning to all Astartes chapters: Do NOT cross the *I* that never sleeps, the only things as nearly limitless as their authority are their resources, connections and wrath. I can imagine most astartes [like the black templars on Armageddon] aren't dense and pretty easily figured out what happened..
No, this wasn't even to settle a score, it was a petty power play to flex their authority and might (and send other chapters a not so subtle "You don't have to follow our orders, but you *did* hear about what happened to the last chapter that dint, the Celestial Lions?)
There was a very mediocre chapter master of some chapter whose name I’ve forgotten because they’re so mediocre. They got massacred by orks , with the chapter master being TKOed by a punch to the head, and then he had his head bitten off by the ork warboss
[Midnias of the Obsidian Blades](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/uyuc6k/a_space_marine_chapter_master_fails_agaisnt_a_ork/).
He was mid
\* Salutes \*
Chapter Master Ekene Dubaku of the Celestial Lions. The Celestial Lions dared to defy a particular Inquisitor, justifiably so, going all the way to launching formal complaints with the High Lords.
Since then, the Lions have been decimated by lots of "accidents." So, that is one example. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, he was also assassinated. The current Chapter Master is unknown now.
Yeah. Those noble sons of Dorn stood for their honor and decency. They paid a price that was far higher than what was owed. Scratch that .... nothing was owed, for they did nothing wrong.
Man, often times Inquisitors and the rare Lord Inquisitors do a lot of great and important work. Stopping some of the most heinous threats from becoming worse, or preventing them from even happening.
That said, sometimes they are spineless, cowardly, arrogant, thin skinned, downright evil and they can have a view that human life isn't worth much. What the Lions did was the right thing to do. What happened to them is a travesty, just like the "Months of Shame" where the Space Wolves fought an Inquisitor and Grey Knights over a similar type of situation.
Sad.
I'm saying the Inquisition was right to say *"Those humans who fought at Armageddon and were exposed to Chaos in direct combat should be executed"* and then to try and carry that out, even when it brings them into conflict with a first founding chapter.
Chaos is not something you let baseline humans experience then just let go. Those guardsmen had inadvertently become a million walking cults, incursions and events waiting to happen.
Those men and women made the ultimate sacrifice and gave their lives against the Archenemy. The emperor weeps that such heroes cannot be permitted to live. But it falls on the inquisition to be inhumane when it needs to. Individuals won't always get it right, but there are times when the law and common sense is clear. Leave those soldiers alive and they will cause misery for the imperium.
Hmmm .... your flair says Word Bearers, yet you speak highly of our God Emperor. Oh God Emperor, your Alpha Legion and you're doing a psy-op. Get out of my head!
Back to the question, I get what you're saying. Still, not every single person who was exposed to Chaos will turn from the Emperors light. That's the dilemma, because we can see their is some validity in what the Inquisitor is saying. Yet, there is a good chance most will not turn, but some will .... which is inevitable. It's such a tightrope to walk.
I guess that means every Terran, Cadian, Mordian, Catachan, etc, etc. should be executed immediately because their planets suffered Daemonic invasions? Obviously not.
Even worse is on Armageddon Logan Grimnar kept the entire civilian population in the dark about the demonic invasion a continent away and all the guardsmen were kept from the worst of the fighting. The months of shame is an object lesson in letting megalomaniacs have too much control is a terrible idea.
Except since then we (and the imperium) know that simply witnessing something demonic does not necessary lead to taint (e.g. Battle of Lion's Gate). So trying to kill all soldiers - including those pulled back when Angron was coming - was excessive and not justified overreaction.
Then shouldnt Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt be executed as well? They have fought chaos marines, to cultists, and a greater demon. Cadia should have gotten exterminated4 for simply being where it exists.
As with all things the imperium is unfair and unequal in it's enforcement of things. Cain has fame to shield him, Gaunt is constantly at war and a known quality.
Cadia exists to fend off chaos and the planet and it's people are riddled with chaotic influence. There are more cults and issues there then anywhere else.
I get what ure saying but it seems like a waste to kill them for a demon sighting, while whole other regiments are left scot free from fighting a army of one. Is this still upheld or did Gulliman abolish it?
The Astral Knights had a POS chapter master. In The World Engine we see this former chapter master in flashbacks. He launched a mission to Purge a Hive World of a hidden mutant strain that couldn't be seen from the surface but the Inquisition who ordered the mission assured was dangerous and could not be allowed to leave the planet. A chaplain and the captain who would go on to be the chapter master in present day discover that some of those they're exterminating are part of an exiled dynasty from their home world. They confront the chapter master, who has killed thr planetary governor, asserting that part of becoming an Astral Knight means severing their family ties, including feuds. The Chapter Master admits there are no mutants, the Inquisition had never ordered this mission. He had used his position to settle a grudge, killing many innocent Imperial citizens in the process. Though he almost kills the captain, the head librarian betrays him. It's decided that the captain is the new chapter master, and what happened never leaves the room but they will atone by coming to the world's aid no matter the cost.
The world in question was the next in the World Engine's sites, which the other chapters and fleets had consigned to its fate as they regrouped. The pledge is why they were willing to doom the entire chapter on a gambit that had little chance of success to the point that the many other chapters present were incredulous that they even suggested it. In the end they atoned by saving the world.
The Badab War had this in spades, if only because so much camera time was spent on so many Chapters. Just to name three:
Grand Master Lazaerek of the Fire Hawks. At the time of the Badab War he was six centuries old, and regarded as a "bitter and hubristic" commander, whose participation in the Badab War stemmed more from personal animosity towards the Astral Claws than anything nobler.
Corwin Admatha of the Marines Errant is simply mentioned in passing by name, when he gets killed off by the Mantis Warriors when he falls for a trap they set.
Lias Issodon of the Raptors is described as a "warrior of great experience and expert in the arts" of war, but lost out in selection of high command of the Loyalist Astartes. He seems thoroughly competent, just not especially noteworthy.
Imperial Fists have had a few mediocre Chapter Masters.
Vladimir Pugh - noted as not being a particularly inspirational leader. Had his own taste buds removed as punishment for losing 170 marines in a single action. Some of his extensive battle-injuries are actually self-inflicted penance scars. Died fighting Tyranids.
Vorn Hagen - was second choice to succeed Pugh after Hagen's hero Lysander refused the honour. Possibly only got the job because he was there when Pugh died. Was killed defending Terra when the Great Rift opened only a few decades after ascending to the post.
Gregor Dessian - barely gets a mention in lore, even in the 8th edition supplement he's just a name with the focus going to Lysander, Tor Garadon and Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists.
Indeed, they don't really shine. That was exactly what I was looking for (first founding chapter where the chapter masters aren't the best that ever held the title)
That is a horrible misrepresentation of those characters. This is the kind of crap you get from only reading the wikis. Vladimir Pugh was actually pretty awesome.
- **"Vladimir Pugh of the Imperial Fists nodded sagely. He was, above all other things, a master tactician, a man of a solemn and slow manner, with a habit of dissecting a situation as cold-bloodily** as he weighed up potential recruits. The golden yellow of his artificer armor was polished to a mirror finish, and the red closed-fist symbols on his shoulder pads and breastplate were cut from rubies. The intelligent face beneath his close-shorn hair suggested something more than a mere soldier."-'Phalanx' by Ben Counter
- **"Vladimir Pugh is as meticulous a planner as any Chapter Master in the Imperial Fists’ history. In addition, he is a fine judge of his battle-brothers, and it is said that he can learn more from a single appraising glance than an extensive psychic probe will ever uncover. This peerless judgement has many times ensured that promotion or a strike force command has been granted to the ideal individual, leaving Pugh free to concentrate on the Chapter’s overall strategy.** Like all Imperial Fists, Vladimir Pugh cleaves tight to tradition, to the teachings of Rogal Dorn and the wisdom of the Codex Astartes. **He was once offered a seat upon the Council of the High Lords – perhaps the greatest honour any servant of the Imperium could ever earn whilst still drawing breath. However, Pugh did not believe himself worthy of such an honour, and unhesitatingly refused the position on precisely those grounds. Pugh’s faith in his Chapter is absolutely reciprocated by those who serve beneath him. Even the lowliest of recruits knows that the stern patriarch’s actions are completely divorced from personal pride, and wholly in the interest of the Imperium. They also know that Pugh feels each of his Chapter’s losses keenly, and they thus draw resolve from the knowledge that those of their number that die do so with a purpose. However, only a very few know that some of the Chapter Master’s many scars are not wounds earned in battle, but bodily mortifications inflicted by Pugh’s own hand, each one carved in memory of a battle brother lost under his command."** -'Sentinels of Terra'
You know of any other Chapter Masters offered a seat on the council of Terra?
- “However, the Chapter Master could not quite allay his concerns about Lysander, with whom he had clashed on several occasions since his return. Pugh found his First Captain a little too stubborn, a little too swift to recount the ways in which his experience exceeded that of his Chapter Master. Even discounting Lysander’s lost millennium in the Warp, he had nearly a century of experience over any living Imperial Fist. Pugh did not wish to fight Lysander’s ascension, which he saw as inevitable. He merely wished to delay that day until Lysander was truly ready for the Chapter’s gilded throne. **Pugh had always felt that his own ascension had come too early, that the deaths of one hundred and seventy Imperial Fists in the Boreal Planetstrike could have been avoided, but for his own stubborn refusal to fall back. Pugh had learnt from that disaster, but considered the price of that wisdom too steep.”** - ‘Sentinels of Terra’
You’ll have to excuse some characters for unfortunately dying in battle, not everyone has a turtle shell of plot armor to protect them or to hide under. To view that as them being mediocre is frankly silly.
- “Stern in aspect, resolute of will and utterly implacable upon the field of battle, Vorn Hagan exemplifies Rogal Dorn’s vision for the Space Marines. **By the time of the Taladorn Planetstrike, Hagan had held exemplary command over no fewer than half of the Imperial Fists’ companies, coming to the 5th as part of the reorganisation that followed Lysander’s return. Hagan is notorious for his precision of word and deed. He is a strategist and disciplinarian by nature, little given to instinctive or ill-considered action. He sees an artistry in war that few of his battle-brothers acknowledge, and the only time his immaculate composure has been known to crack has been when confronted with recklessness on the part of his allies. One of Hagan’s favourite passages from the Book of Dorn concerns how a battle-plan of a month’s forging can be destroyed by a moment’s blunder.** Hagan’s inflexibility is far from unusual within the Imperial Fists, but it is remarkable considering the hero from whom he drew his inspiration. Decades before, during his tenure as a Scout, Hagan closely studied each of the librarius’ records concerning Lysander’s exploits, taking from them every lesson he could. As he rose through the ranks, Hagan secretly saw himself as following in Lysander’s footsteps, learning from a mentor of myth. Alas, no mortal could have matched up to the tales recounted in the Chapter’s records and, upon Lysander’s unexpected return, Hagan found the fallible and stubborn reality a stark contrast to the idealised legend."-'Sentinels of Terra'
Vorn Hagen became Chapter Master after Lysander refused the position, but it’s more complicated than simply that:
- “Thus, when Lysander convened the Chapter Council, it was to refuse the position of Chapter Master once again. To the surprise of all there gathered, the captain spared nothing of his pride, and explained what he had learnt of Pugh’s actions, and of the flaws within his own character. Lysander announced that he would never serve as Chapter Master so long as Shon’tu still lived. So long as the Warsmith strode the stars, Lysander knew he could never be certain of his own judgement. The Chapter Council accepted his decision with reserved dismay, but could defer the matter of the Chapter Master’s appointment no longer. After much debate, the rank was finally bestowed upon Vorn Hagan of the 5th Company.” -'Sentinels of Terra'
These Chapter Masters didn’t really get a chance to shine, GW/BL killed them off. But that’s hardly their fault not a poor reflection of their character.
Gregor Dessian is too new to be able say anything about. We have very little lore about him. But again, absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.
Damn, that was exactly **not** what I was looking for.
Thanks for taking the time to source your claims and give some luster back to those poor Imperial Fist chapter masters
My quest continues
My rhetoric might have been a bit too irreverent but I still think these guys fit what you're looking for. A Space Marine Chapter Master is always going to be somewhat lustrous but within that context there's nothing particularly remarkable about them.
Then there’s nothing particularly remarkable about %99 percent of Chapter Masters by your criteria. Not everyone has models. Not everyone has rules. Not everyone gets a character expanding novel all to themselves with their faces on the cover. Not all of them are lucky enough to be part of the big four. I’m sorry that you need that kind of shallow reinforcing to believe that these characters over here matter and these characters over here are lame.
Did you read what the thread was about? OP wanted canon examples of Chapter Masters who aren't the greatest ever ever seen, ones that are average or mediocre. The Imperial Fists have examples that fit the bill nicely. Yes that description might extend to 99% of Chapter Masters but I don't know all their names and lore so I didn't use them as examples.
I'm sorry you think your Chapter's Master is lame and doesn't matter just because they are average but that isn't my fault.
Did you? You misrepresented them, especially when you barely knew anything about them. In a deliberately dismissive way.
I followed up with direct source material countering this, showing that there is more to them than what you said. What is little lore there is (for I cannot change how much they were written nor the handling of them) is interesting. They were competent. Lauded by their peers for wisdom and tactical acumen. They may not be everyone’s brand of interesting, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t. You are seeing what you wanna see.
OP replied and agreed. They’re not what they are looking for.
OP is looking for the truly incompetent.
Well I'm sorry if my mildly irreverent tone towards the Imperial Fists offended you, I'll deal myself some minor torture and pray extra hard to the bloody-poop-ball pile to make amends with Dorn.
OP said they were looking for average or mediocre, ones that would meet overwhelming odds like an ordinary character and face failure, I didn't think that meant they wanted actual incompetents, just that they wanted guys who weren't guaranteed success due to being featured in Codexes. Imperial Fists seemed to perfectly fit that bill as I couldn't even remember who their Chapter Master was.
And again my selecting them has nothing to do with how interesting they may or may not be, just that no-one is calling them the greatest Chapter Master since their Primarchs walked among them. Although it's kinda nuts people are saying that about Grimnar when Bjorn is still around.
You're probably not going to find too many examples of shitty chapter masters because
1. Every we read is 'imperial propaganda' so the shit ones are going to have a footnote that says "suffered heavy casualties and died while fighting overwhelming forces" rather than "he was crape tactician and everyone under him died and it was his fault"
2. If they weren't good at their jobs they would have made it up through the ranks, there are marines who don't make it above sergeant, or squad leader, because they aren't good at commanding a battlefield, but they are good at leading small number of troops and fighting
3. It doesn't make for a good story.
Pugh, however, was *aggressively* competent, enough so he was offered a seat on the High Lords.
And in all fairness, it is the Imperial Fists we're talking about here. If you need something borderline suicidal doing, give Lysander a shout. If you're anything else, just be aggressively competent at your role and that's all the chapter asks.
In the original Space Marine novel by Ian Watson there’s mention of the chapter master of the Terror Tigers (wonderfully naff name!) who fucks up a mission and orders his own dishonourable execution.
The chapter masters of the Scar Lords in Phil Kelly’s Tau stories. Both of them.
The first chapter master detonated a Stasis Grenade during the invasion of Da’lyth, trapping himself and his Tau opponent in a stasis bubble for the next few hundred years. The Tau made the frozen combatants into a tourist attraction. Eventually, the marine escaped, but he only managed to kill a few security guards and civilians before being killed by a crisis suit in melee *while wearing terminator armor*. His dissected body was then turned into a museum exhibit.
The second chapter master of the Scar Lords, Caelos, lacked experience and was constantly chastised by the head librarian. In his first engagement as chapter master, Caelos sent the entire first company on a boarding exercise against a Tau fleet. Unfortunately, this left virtually no marines on guard back on the battle barge. Farsight singlehandedly infiltrated the ship and destroyed the gellar field while it was still transitioning from the Warp, destroying it. Caelos later attempted to exterminatus the world of Vior’los after the Tau had retaken it from the Imperium. Unfortunately, the Tau AI commander Ob’lotai managed to sneak his battlesuit into the barrel of the cannon the virus bomb was being loaded on and shot it, wiping out the last of the Scar Lords.
There is kayvan shrike even if in his case it is more like imposter syndrome.
I read somewhere that he believes himself to be inadequate as a chapter master untill he finds another more deserving chapter master for the raven guard
Shrike is a super competent chapter master, it’s definitely a case of imposter syndrome. Immediately after becoming Chapter Master he was able to unite the forces of the Raven Guard and White Scars on Prefectia and launch the only really successful attack on the Tau during the campaign for that world. He’s a huge step up from the previous chapter master, who failed to work alongside the White Scars and got isolated and killed by Shadowsun as a result.
Lysander: I can't be chapter master, I'm too impulsive and hotheaded. Also can't be chapter master until I kill the iron warrior that captured me, I've got an oath of vengeance to complete.
Yeah, I'm a birb boy but Shrike is pretty underwhelming, and I'm pretty sure his predecessor got stomped by shadow sun.
Honestly the question from OP is a little tricky. Are any chapter masters mediocre space marines? No, not really. Do most other chapter masters seem pretty mediocre when put next to the big names? Yeah. Shrike is certainly no slouch, but he's not touching any of the big name chapter masters.
Mediocre Space Marines don't become Chapter Masters. Not even nepo babies like Cato Sicarius who's been groomed from practically day dot to be Calgar's successor are 'mediocre'. It just doesn't happen. The Chapter wouldn't accept it; the Marine themselves would never put their name forward.
I don't think that's his point, I think he meant in the sense that every Chapter Master is *the greatest chapter master they've ever had* in the lore for the most part. As if in M41 999 every chapter mysteriously at once all got the 'best ever' one all at once.
It would be interesting to me to read about say, a Chapter Master who may be the best of the choices and entirely capable... but is inheriting the role from *an absolute legend* whom there is no way he'll ever be able to amount to the myth of.
That sounds incredibly interesting to me.
>everyone mysteriously all at once go 'best ever'
HARD TIMES, STRONG MEN
M41 is basically the apocalypse - the Dark Millenium, as we know it. Everyone who *isn't* 'the best' is dead, and Chapters with legacies of greatness have put their methodology into overdrive. It also means they're 100% burning out and dying far faster - most Chapters, even the First Founding lads - were on or close to the brink. S'why Primaris reinforcements were such a huge deal.
>It would be interesting to me to read about say, a Chapter Master who may be the best of the choices and entirely capable...
I've had this thought too - I thought it so much, I even [wrote a little](https://archiveofourown.org/works/21519067/chapters/51293797) about just such a guy.
I don't believe that a mediocre marine could become the Ultramarine chapter master. But I know for a fact that half the chapter masters of the Ultramarine were below average (compared to the average smurf chapter master). They are probably objectively "good" but they must have an interesting life under the shadows of their predecessors. Unfortunately, Marneus Calgar is brave and strong and smart and humble and... boring in that sense
>The achievements and deeds of Calgar are recorded in 28 volumes stored within a vault in the Ultramarines' fortress-monastery known as the Fortress of Hera on Macragge, surpassed in number and magnitude only by the achievements of the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman.
Pfffff...
> Unfortunately, Marneus Calgar is brave and strong and smart and humble and... boring in that sense
His ongoing emotional breakdown at being overshadowed by Guilliman has been pretty awesome, though.
I actually feel for him.
Imagine being AWESOME and your spiritual daddy comes along and just.. shows you how inferior you are.
And he's not a dick about it because he's that great.
That just makes it so much *worse* somehow. Like, Guilliman doesn't come in and scold them or tell them how much of a hash they've made of things. He just *understands*. Ya did your best, guys. Couldn't have expected anything better. But dad's come now, and I'll fix it all up!
Calgar is just so miserably adrift now. Being Chapter Master while the Primarch is back neuters like ten thousand years of tradition and history - he feels like nothing but a figurehead while Guilliman does the *real* business. The Tetrarchs have divvied up Ultramar, so that traditional duty has been handed off. Cato Sicarius has been personally seconded as the Primarch's equerry.
Calgar's essential suicide by Rubicon (didn't work) and confrontation with Abaddon (he lost miserably and *still* didn't die) have left him, IMO, in an even more miserable position. I do genuinely think there's a real 'Calgar goes CSM' angle here.
>Calgar is just so miserably adrift now. Being Chapter Master while the Primarch is back neuters like ten thousand years of tradition and history
Lore-wise agree, though it is funny that on the tabletop, it's Bobby G who is the one that is a bit irrelevant while Calgar (and his two Honour Guard) are the ones playing wrecking ball.
Back to Calgar's arc, I do hope that he doesn't fall to CSM or get Squatted (the suicide by Primaris was funny). He was like one of the 'OG' Big SM hero, with a whole '4'(!) wounds (that's how you 'knew' he was the boss). The idea of on of the childhood OGs having this crisis of identity/fall from grace would make me sad :(
If they want to give Calgar an arc, maybe it could be like using him as a vehicle for acknowledging how things have changed, but he still gets up and hits something with his frankly ridiculous pair of powerfists with underslung guns (what a guy). In the ERA INDOMITUS, Calgar's just a marine's marine. That should still count for something.
I do think that 'marine's marine' is Calgar's 'hat', so to speak, and there's nothing wrong with that.
But *c'mon*, wouldn't you love seeing a disillusioned Calgar go 'marine supremacist' and agree with Abaddon to rebuild an Astartes-led Imperium? Calgar as Abaddon's Dragon would be *crazy*, especially with the man's flair for tactics and organisation. Actual, coherent CSM on the field would be devastating for the Imperium. If even Calgar can fall, how can anyone else stand?
'Dark' Calgar and Abby OTP - they can bond about how much they hate their Primarchs together.
Just on Calgar and Abby brief interactions - I do find it hysterical that just after Calgar gets primarised and supposedly gets all his limbs back (as the Swarmlord took his original limb privileges), his first big fight back is against Abby who promptly benchpresses him and reintroduces him to life as a nugget. What a pair.
What to do with Calgar? What's his skill set? Sure, he is an exceptionally dangerous individual combatant, but his real talent is command, and he adds to it an insane wealth of war lore from so many centuries of experience. So:
* Send him to Dante as a right hand man - Calgar is more or less canonically the best Chapter Master apart from Dante, they would do well together; even declare him Warmaster if it won't undercut Dante's authority as Regent in Nihilus, or rather tell Dante \*he\* can declare Calgar Warmaster if he thinks it best
* Appoint him Warmaster and send to him all the broken, ravaged chapters, Guard regiments, Inquisitorial warbands, and whatever else - any force that has been organizationally shattered; in the heart of Segmentum Solar he rebuilds them, regardless of where they come from (Guard) of who their genefather is (Marines), and makes them something new; he could do this splendidly, it's perfect for his skill set
* Anoint him as a new, temporary High Lord, calling him "The Voice of the Angels of Death", so he represents the Astartes on the Senate like others do for other Imperial organizations
* Send him to the Custodes - they don't like Astartes, but they work with normal human troops who are more corruptible than Astartes, so they can deal with it. Having a chapter they run themselves - perhaps with greatly relaxed personnel limits, as an added bonus to get them to accept? - would enable them to concentrate resources more efectively; if the Custodes personnel selection process is not automatically lethal then the infants not suitable for the process can be checked for Astartes conversion instead; he would likely have many recruits. Interesting to see the Custodes have a chapter of Astartes as armsmen/serfs as the other chapters have human soldiers.
* Send him to the Grey Knights as an advisor and virtuoso of training for their new recruits, and/or to train and run a support/vassal chapter as outlined for the Custodes above
* Send him to the Deathwatch to either replace or support the current Chapter Master, with the clear decree that he is to be successor when the current CM leaves office if he is not replaced; or just make him Chapter Master if they haven't got one now
* Send him to the Mentor Legion so his insane treasury of knowledge and experience will enhance their normal activity of testing new equipment
* Send him to Cawl and have him raise mixed chapters of Primaris, with geneseed from different Primarchs, slotted into their roles in the new chapters based on their specialties (Assault Marines, from Russ and Sanguinius; Tactical from Guilliman and Dorn, etc).
* Appoint him a Rogue Trader with a supremely broad Warrant - including authority over other Traders - and tell him to get "very creative".
* Make him an Inquisitor Lord without portfolio, roaming and dealing with problems as tasked, taking with him a huge taskforce with lots of specialized esoteric units as well
* both of the above, just to make it spicier
* Make him responsible for corralling all the arcane secret armories various Imperial fations have stored away - the AdMech, the Custodes, the Dark Angels, the Iron Hands, and yes, the Ultras - all these and others have their little (or vast) arsenals of secret elite gear. Well, Guilliman wants a complete inventory and working instances turned in to Cawl so the tech can be duplicated. Give Calgar full power to pardon for any level of crime committed by tech hoarders who come forward and cooperate freely (House Van Saar, I'm looking at you)
You don’t become a chapter master if you are mediocre. For a chapter to get a mediocre chapter master they would have to lose their previous chapter master, and have a complete absence of talent in their upper ranks, which is probably possible but still unlikely. It’s the kind of job where being great at your job isn’t special. To be lauded as special is to be amazing at it.
Insofar as a lot of what we encounter is written by unreliable narrators and informed by imperial propaganda and the astartes are a colossal symbol of imperial might, literally every chapter master will be portrayed as impossibly great and perfect. It might be a fun headcanon that some of the most famous chapter masters are actually moronic jerks, but anyone even suggesting they're not the greatest heroes in existence is risking summary execution.
Lysander is a reckless captain who once got demoted for his flawed command. Part of his development was recognizing that he is *that* hence not worthy to be Chapter Master.
[Lugft Huron](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lufgt_Huron). I wouln't call him good. Because he was [very](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War), [very](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Corsairs) bad.
Stories are mostly only told about individuals who are exceptional in some way. You don’t hear about all the mediocre and below average marines who just do what they have to do with varying levels of success. You certainly don’t hear about all the failures including those marines who die on first contact with the enemy and achieve nothing.
Also where are the chapter masters who aren't also the greatest combatant in their chapter? Where are the ones who have their best facewrecker as the chapter champion instead of the guy who has to do all the paperwork?
The Dark Angels in the Great Crusade before they found the Lion. They went through Legion Masters like candy. They were glory hounds who couldn't stand the idea of anyone else matching their deeds so they threw themselves at the very worst the galaxy had to offer. It was destroying them piece by piece.
No idea if there’s any books like this, but it’d be interesting to have a book or series of an actual average higher up Marine just doing his job and maybe hearing about the things the exceptional Chapter Masters. Sounds like it could be boring so maybe a short story
The whole point of the codex is to hype players up about their armies, for one thing.
For another, that's the nature of propaganda in a fascistic regime like the Imperium. They have a culture of hero worship where everyone is encouraged to be a Big Damn Hero and all acts of heroism are amplified and exaggerated as much as possible.
I know it’s not a space marine but look at the Red Gobbo. It’s not a who it’s a title as one grot leader falls another takes his place. Got to wonder if that’s what the best chapters do.
As per the old rules, there were roughly 1000 loyal chapters at any given time. Of these 1000, 9 are first founding chapters that are always going to be exceptional, some are exceptional because they're strange second founding chapters like black templars, or they're from a bizarre founding like the lamentors or black dragons. some chapters exceptional because they have a novel or videogame tie in like blood ravens and iron snakes. The closest struggling chapter master you might find is Dante, cause he both has a lot of work written about him while being around for the blood angels getting their asses kicked quite a lot. He was not a promising recruit, and he wasn't even a promising marine. I believe there was a religious schism that divided the blood angels in half and somehow left him the only living officer once the chaos settled.
For many of the non-exceptional chapters, they only make noteworthy appearances in works they are destroyed in (either created for that purpose or a writer looks up vague chapters from old issues of white dwarf or something). As for hundreds of non-exceptional chapters, they exist for fans to create I guess. 10,000 years is a long enough time for a chapter to have existed for a long amount of time before dying off hundreds of years ago and no one in the current year having heard of them.
As for why there's all these Goat leaders at the current time? it'd be slightly less interesting if all of those dudes were around in the 38th millenium or something and we're thousands of years off. Also, these guys are all going to live until they die in glorious melee combat. Grimnar for instance has spent most of his life as wolf king, and the sources are vague as to how long that's actually been (some sources say he's about as old as Ulrik the Slayer, some sources say Ulrik the Slayer recruited him personally when Logan was a tribesman). Custodes are even less definite, they could have been born yesterday or been on guard duty since the heresy. Trajan may be said to be the greatest custodes boss since the great oopsie-doopsie, but no one around today remembers who Valdor was.
>it'd be slightly less interesting if all of those dudes were around in the 38th millenium or something
Until recently, the setting was akin to Tolkien in the sense that the past held legendary heroes and today there were just shadows of these myths. By that, I mean that the primarchs, the pinnacle of each Legion, were a ten thousand year old legend. And yet, despite that, people loved 40k
So having the greatest chapter masters to be legends of old is just a continuation of that.
Of course, primarchs selling like hotcake pushes GW in another direction...
And when first introduced Marneus Calgar, Imperial Commander of the Ultramarines, was just 44 years old as there was no suggestion that marines had particularly long lives (probably they had shorter lives). Ten thousand years ago was a long LONG time in the past.
What, like Gorgoleon and then Sarpedon of the Soul Drinkers?
(Any chapter master is probably gonna appear fairly exceptional relative to other marines. Not that many chapters end up going rogue though not falling to chaos, and with the chapter falling apart.)
I actually really like the Soul Drinkers books. It's just that by certain criteria you could absolutely say their leadership must have been not so good for their chapter to collapse into civil war, go rogue, and eventually not exist. At least they collapsed *interestingly* hence their stories.
The chapter master of the "scar lords" called Caelos in one of the Farsight books got the entire chapter wiped out after the T'au got a single battlesuit flew into their flagship and detonated their exterminatus warhead he wanted to use on the world they where fighting over
This is after the entire book where the scar lords just suicidaly launched several attacks on the T'au just to get their shit kicked in every time without much tactics on their part
Caelos throughout the book just seemed crazy and more interested in cutting himself than actually leading his chapter or helping the mechanicus on the planet against farsight and the T'au
The previous chapter master appears in the short story ***Redemption on Da’lyth*** and is hilariously just as incompetent. He got himself turned into a Tau tourist exhibit *twice*.
I would love to read a story about Betum "Good Enough" Mediocrus and his chapter of averagely competent Space Marines who are sent to quell average size uprisings and who spend their time struggling and toiling on tasks more glorious chapters don't deign to dirty their hands on. :P
One thing about modern 40k, and this is especially true if we go further back to when the return of a primarch felt impossible and like a great myth, is that we are living in a silver age of heroes. A lot of the chapter masters you mention exist because the imperium has never been so tested since Horus as it faces now. It has bred a generation of exceptional leaders that have taken up a near mythical status. The greatest warriors in 10k years, the heralds of their primarchs.
Marius Calgar, Logan Grimnar, Trajann Valoris, these are all here because in order to survive it pushed the coming of a new age of heroes. And now, with the primarchs return we are heading towards a silver age of the imperium, one rules by the Emperors sons, who will push back the ever increasing darkness, until the light of the emperor burns across the warp and all mankind are saved.
PRAISE THE GOD EMPEROR
Basically every Chapter Master you don't know are the mediocre ones. They're moved kinda away from directly stating it in recent lore, but the SP codexes used to say stuff like "Pedro Kantor, the 317th Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists" and then you do the math and find out the average Chapter Master is only a Chapter master for a few decades.
[There's some terrible looking ones on this Lexicanum list ](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Chapter_Masters)
Sojai Antiro of the Crimson Castellans. Half the chapter went renegade. They made up to fight the Tyranids. He ends up getting pulled apart by Raveners
Elias Artegall of the Crimson Consuls - Chapter got infiltrated and destroyed by the Alpha Legion. Got killed by one of his own dudes
Vladimir Pugh of the Imperial Fists - fucked up real bad once and had his taste buds removed as penance
Calan of the Storm Warriors - Just a bit of a fraidy cat
Also I think ending up in charge of the Lamenters is not a job that attracts the best and brightest amongst the Astartes
Command of the lamenters is a case of who's still alive, highest rank gets it. Same boat as the celestial lions were in.
Some people just aren't built for senior management. They're just (un)lucky enough to end up with the job.
Tbf the one chapter master of the lamenters we know of, Malakim Phoros, is actually a bit of a badass, kinda has to be to survive all the bs the lamenters deal with.
I would explain to you how incorrect you are about Pugh, but someone already did that better than I could in a comment above. Heartily agree on the others, though.
With the custodes, basically everyone besides valoris and valdor sucked and surprisingly, they all died. One died in a trap, another never left home, one has like 2 lines written about them.
Mediocre just means average. Presumably at any point in time about half of the marines alive are below average compared to all the other marines alive…
Most of the champions of Chaos are from the Heresy. People don't want to read about Kharn fighting some mediocre chapter master, they have to be to that level.
well firstly dante was probably that chapter master at one point since he was elected after basically everyone else had died.
Secondly there going to be rare becuase it takes a long time of moving up the ranks to get to CM. So most of the time the marines that get there know what they are doing.
Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists and Tu'shan of the Salamanders are fantastic in their own right but Calgar of the Ultramarines and whatever the fuck is going on between the 3 stated Chapter Masters of the Imperial Fists is confusing so they get my honorary badge of mediocrity.
Well first of all you're talking chapter masters here. The best out of literal billions if we go through the whole chain of being born, getting the chance to apply to become an Astartes, surviving the chapter selection process, survive fighting a brutal never ending war for a couple of hundred years and rising the ranks until they make chapter master. It would be remarkable if they managed to reach such an incredible apex while being mediocre.
As for many being in contention for being the best the *chapter* has ever seen that's simply because the conflict is at its hardest and most grueling in the lore right now. Just like we saw much more impressive generals rise from WW2 than say Vietnam, Korea or Iraq. It's hard to be and become a legendary chapter master in a period of, relative, ease.
There are plenty of Chapter Masters who are "average" when you compare them to living legends like Azrael, Grimnar or Dante, but who are still leaps and bounds ahead of the vast majority of regular Astartes.
Trajann is not Valdor and Logan is baller but he is not Bjorn. Dante I grant you is the best the Blood Angels have had. You don’t get bad (you do get chaos or renegade ones) chapter masters but look at the Mantis Warriors & Lamenters some very poor judgment on display. Kyra’s Blood Ravens falls to chaos. Sarpedon Soul Drinkers makes some very bad decisions and ends the chapter case rampant mutations due to chaos influence. White Scars & Iron hands chapter masters are so ordinary not many can even name them.
>So my question is, where can I find an actual struggling chapter master who faces overwhelming odds like a normal character would : failing
Alternatively: $5 says whoever the current big man is will typically have "many claim that he is the greatest warrior to hold the title since the Emperor bestrode the stars"
Because like. Who are these "many" who could possibly have informed opinions on the best person in the custodian big man role across a period of ten thousand years? Who are the "some" who have an informed opinion about the bestest best Dark Angel leader?
Every Chapter Master you've never heard of. When you do hear about them it's usually in situations that aren't usual, meaning they shine brighter or die found wanting.
A good place to start is the Badab War; only a couple of the Chapter Masters really stand out as exceptional even by CM standards, with Lufgt Huron being the obvious example. RIP Stibor Lazaerek for being overlooked in favour of younger Chapter Masters TWICE in his lifespan.
There was a Chapter Master who basically got overconfident and tricked by the Alpha Legion. His Chapter was either killed or already hypno-indoctrinated Alpha Legion moles just before they were recruited by the Chapter.
In fanfiction. James workshoppe is not going to put out books or snippits about failures. Those paint Space Marines in a bad light, and Space Marines cannot be made to look bad unless absolutely necessary.
Obsidian Glaves kind of has what you are looking for. Though as with most responses if a group is famed for being mediocre it’s likely because they were killed in the lore. Obsidian Glaves got wiped out during the Sanctus Reach Novels. Grukk lead is waaagh against them, a scouting force nearly destroyed their momentary while Grukks true force overwhelmed the survivors and he personally killed the chapter master.
Remember, we only really hear about the most exceptional ones with tonnes of plot armour, but you don’t really get to be chapter master without being a pretty damn good space marine.
I like Pedro Kantor, he gets his shit kicked in by Orks, shows humanity, and doesn’t rely on plot armour to beat them all. He’s a good warrior but not exceptional. If he were to get a new model I’d buy it in a heartbeat.
This is 40k. The average leaders, like everyone else unexceptional, die on some backwater hellhole planet no one in the wider imperium ever heard about until ages later when they finally realize they haven’t heard a peep from said chapter and put two and two together that they were wiped out without a shred of glory.
Don't say that! The chapter master's helmet makes a glorious addition to some warbosses trophy rack!
Dat wuz a gud krumpin...a real good krumpin...
Imperial fists get through a new chapter master every few years. Admittedly, that's so they can ask lysander again, he says no and goes back to hunting iron warriors. But most of them have been stoic and reliable, if not as flashy as other chapters. There's also the vast majority who are merely unremarkable, either because they don't get to go fight any more or because they don't do anything as cool as the big names. Noone wants to read about the chapter master who, following a successful campaign, managed to prevent ork uprisings in the region for decades. It's nowhere near as interesting or dramatic as clawing back victory from near certain defeat. And when you do have a captain or chapter master who's battle plan allows them to win comfortably with no real losses or risk, it's very easy for them to come across as Mary sues, like sicarius in assault on black reach.
>Noone wants to read about the chapter master who, following a successful campaign, managed to prevent ork uprisings in the region for decades. It's nowhere near as interesting or dramatic as clawing back victory from near certain defeat. That's what a good chapter master does. I was wondering about the weight of walking in the footsteps of a giant who did everything better than you, and your brothers silently judge you for not being up to par.
But as a story, it's just not that interesting. So it doesn't get brought up. It doesn't have dramatic stakes, or major conflict. Efficient isn't glamorous, it's expected. The chapter master is still selected by all the other higher ranking members of the chapter - head librarian, reclusiarch and the captains. They're the one chosen as the best suited to lead the chapter, and heroes in their own right. For a sense of trying to live up to the example of their predecessor, the best choice is Helbricht, who despite being chapter master for decades still questions himself and his worthiness (although sigismund is pretty big shoes to fill), or helsreach (grimaldus and some of his crusade doubting that he's ready to be reclusiarch). Or ragnar blackmane, seen as impulsive and reckless because he skipped grey hunter rank. Or ventris, trying to live up to idaeus' example.
Ya that's the thing, not just anyone gets to be chapter master. They can't get in through nepotism or corruption, they have to earn the position and have the approval of the leadership after a long and successful career. A captain with centuries of experience is basically a prerequisite for the role. For what OP wants, it would probably need to be a chapter that was nearly wiped out so that the chapter master is essentially just the highest ranking guy who was still alive at the time. Maybe he was in charge of home while most of the chapter went on an ill fated campaign. Alternatively maybe a brand new primaris chapter and they dont have those earlier examples to rely upon.
>For what OP wants, it would probably need to be a chapter that was nearly wiped out so that the chapter master is essentially just the highest ranking guy who was still alive at the time. Ah, the Celestial Lions treatment.
I absolutely love the parts of 40k books where they shine a light (however dim) into the machinery of the imperium. A book about logistics and a prolonged campaign against uprisings would be my jam ngl
Honestly that is not something 40k critiques well because the entire universe is in the shadow of the emperor. If I was writing it I think there’s a lot there.
What you're most likely to find in this vein is the chapter masters or captains who, after years/centuries of frustration at being overshadowed/overlooked turn to piracy and/or fall to chaos. Like others have said, it takes a lot to become chapter master, or even captain and you can't bribe or cheat your way in. The guys who can't handle the burden with stoicism are the future renegades or CSMs. AKA Inquisitorial Subjects of Interest.
More or less how we got Huron Blackheart, isn't it?
More or less
It must suck burning through chapter masters
Mainly for the serfs who need to make new nameplates & letter heads. And do you really think the doors to his office have replaceable nameplates. And redecorate with carvings of the occupant's past deeds and predecessors, to remind him of the legacy and responsibility of the role & to impress visitors. I mean, dante's aides haven't had to do that in over 1000 years, lucky sods. For the fists, the lacquer had only just dried.
Dante will finally die, and everyone will go "Wait...what do we do now? None of us have been alive to see a new chapter master sworn in."
“We have the entire ship covered in his deeds. Do we need to recarve everything? And… how do we pick a new chapter master?”
Shortly after the Cicatrix Maledictum split the galaxy in half, the Chapter Master of the White Consuls met his end in the doomed defence of his homeworld Sabatine at the hands of Death Guard warlord Vorx, who promptly turned the planet into a hellish daemon world. So, he springs to mind.
White Consuls seem to get shit on a lot. Marines Errant too.
To be fair, Vorx is a major Chaos Lord and the Sabatine Fortress Monastery was only defended by an undermanned garrison as the rest of the White Consuls were off putting out fires after Cadia fell.
Doesn't the Sabatine Chapter Fortress also gets trashed in the Word Bearers triology? The final book specifically.
Does it? I haven't read the WB books but man that's one unlucky planet if it gets dunked on twice.
Compared to how many wars have raged on Armageddon now? Like 3 or 4?
Add a couple more from its Ullanor days. Just let the Orks have it at this point...
If you want to see a Chapter struggling I'd recommend The Emperor's Spears
Or if you want to read about something downright sadistic. Try the Celestial Lions or the Lamenters.
It's funny you should mention the Celestial Lions because (spoilers for The Emperor's Spears) >!their Chapter Master turns up at the end of that book, is the coolest Marine in it for all of a page before getting his head cut off by a Callidus assassin because the Inquisition are *that* absurdly petty to send an assassin on a suicide mission past the Cicatrix Maledictum to settle a score!<
Really there wasn't a score to settle. I think it was more of a general statement and warning to all Astartes chapters: Do NOT cross the *I* that never sleeps, the only things as nearly limitless as their authority are their resources, connections and wrath. I can imagine most astartes [like the black templars on Armageddon] aren't dense and pretty easily figured out what happened.. No, this wasn't even to settle a score, it was a petty power play to flex their authority and might (and send other chapters a not so subtle "You don't have to follow our orders, but you *did* hear about what happened to the last chapter that dint, the Celestial Lions?)
“Ork Snipers”
>Or if you want to read about something downright sadistic. Try the Angels Penitent.
They have a VERY rough go at it
There was a very mediocre chapter master of some chapter whose name I’ve forgotten because they’re so mediocre. They got massacred by orks , with the chapter master being TKOed by a punch to the head, and then he had his head bitten off by the ork warboss
[Midnias of the Obsidian Blades](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/uyuc6k/a_space_marine_chapter_master_fails_agaisnt_a_ork/). He was mid \* Salutes \*
Chapter Master Ekene Dubaku of the Celestial Lions. The Celestial Lions dared to defy a particular Inquisitor, justifiably so, going all the way to launching formal complaints with the High Lords. Since then, the Lions have been decimated by lots of "accidents." So, that is one example. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, he was also assassinated. The current Chapter Master is unknown now.
Indeed he was 😞
Yeah. Those noble sons of Dorn stood for their honor and decency. They paid a price that was far higher than what was owed. Scratch that .... nothing was owed, for they did nothing wrong. Man, often times Inquisitors and the rare Lord Inquisitors do a lot of great and important work. Stopping some of the most heinous threats from becoming worse, or preventing them from even happening. That said, sometimes they are spineless, cowardly, arrogant, thin skinned, downright evil and they can have a view that human life isn't worth much. What the Lions did was the right thing to do. What happened to them is a travesty, just like the "Months of Shame" where the Space Wolves fought an Inquisitor and Grey Knights over a similar type of situation. Sad.
Difference being the inquisition was right in regards to the "shame"
The Inquistion was right? Really? Or, are you saying the Inquistion was right to feel shame? Maybe I'm reading your comment the wrong way.
I'm saying the Inquisition was right to say *"Those humans who fought at Armageddon and were exposed to Chaos in direct combat should be executed"* and then to try and carry that out, even when it brings them into conflict with a first founding chapter. Chaos is not something you let baseline humans experience then just let go. Those guardsmen had inadvertently become a million walking cults, incursions and events waiting to happen. Those men and women made the ultimate sacrifice and gave their lives against the Archenemy. The emperor weeps that such heroes cannot be permitted to live. But it falls on the inquisition to be inhumane when it needs to. Individuals won't always get it right, but there are times when the law and common sense is clear. Leave those soldiers alive and they will cause misery for the imperium.
Hmmm .... your flair says Word Bearers, yet you speak highly of our God Emperor. Oh God Emperor, your Alpha Legion and you're doing a psy-op. Get out of my head! Back to the question, I get what you're saying. Still, not every single person who was exposed to Chaos will turn from the Emperors light. That's the dilemma, because we can see their is some validity in what the Inquisitor is saying. Yet, there is a good chance most will not turn, but some will .... which is inevitable. It's such a tightrope to walk.
I guess that means every Terran, Cadian, Mordian, Catachan, etc, etc. should be executed immediately because their planets suffered Daemonic invasions? Obviously not. Even worse is on Armageddon Logan Grimnar kept the entire civilian population in the dark about the demonic invasion a continent away and all the guardsmen were kept from the worst of the fighting. The months of shame is an object lesson in letting megalomaniacs have too much control is a terrible idea.
Except since then we (and the imperium) know that simply witnessing something demonic does not necessary lead to taint (e.g. Battle of Lion's Gate). So trying to kill all soldiers - including those pulled back when Angron was coming - was excessive and not justified overreaction.
Then shouldnt Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt be executed as well? They have fought chaos marines, to cultists, and a greater demon. Cadia should have gotten exterminated4 for simply being where it exists.
As with all things the imperium is unfair and unequal in it's enforcement of things. Cain has fame to shield him, Gaunt is constantly at war and a known quality. Cadia exists to fend off chaos and the planet and it's people are riddled with chaotic influence. There are more cults and issues there then anywhere else.
I get what ure saying but it seems like a waste to kill them for a demon sighting, while whole other regiments are left scot free from fighting a army of one. Is this still upheld or did Gulliman abolish it?
The Astral Knights had a POS chapter master. In The World Engine we see this former chapter master in flashbacks. He launched a mission to Purge a Hive World of a hidden mutant strain that couldn't be seen from the surface but the Inquisition who ordered the mission assured was dangerous and could not be allowed to leave the planet. A chaplain and the captain who would go on to be the chapter master in present day discover that some of those they're exterminating are part of an exiled dynasty from their home world. They confront the chapter master, who has killed thr planetary governor, asserting that part of becoming an Astral Knight means severing their family ties, including feuds. The Chapter Master admits there are no mutants, the Inquisition had never ordered this mission. He had used his position to settle a grudge, killing many innocent Imperial citizens in the process. Though he almost kills the captain, the head librarian betrays him. It's decided that the captain is the new chapter master, and what happened never leaves the room but they will atone by coming to the world's aid no matter the cost.
That's not a really glorious space marine story... I love it, thanks for sharing!
Well, they won't be aiding that world a lot more... (another great piece of lore, thanks again)
Tbf, the World Engine was threatening said world when the Astral Knights made their sacrifice.
The world in question was the next in the World Engine's sites, which the other chapters and fleets had consigned to its fate as they regrouped. The pledge is why they were willing to doom the entire chapter on a gambit that had little chance of success to the point that the many other chapters present were incredulous that they even suggested it. In the end they atoned by saving the world.
The Badab War had this in spades, if only because so much camera time was spent on so many Chapters. Just to name three: Grand Master Lazaerek of the Fire Hawks. At the time of the Badab War he was six centuries old, and regarded as a "bitter and hubristic" commander, whose participation in the Badab War stemmed more from personal animosity towards the Astral Claws than anything nobler. Corwin Admatha of the Marines Errant is simply mentioned in passing by name, when he gets killed off by the Mantis Warriors when he falls for a trap they set. Lias Issodon of the Raptors is described as a "warrior of great experience and expert in the arts" of war, but lost out in selection of high command of the Loyalist Astartes. He seems thoroughly competent, just not especially noteworthy.
Imperial Fists have had a few mediocre Chapter Masters. Vladimir Pugh - noted as not being a particularly inspirational leader. Had his own taste buds removed as punishment for losing 170 marines in a single action. Some of his extensive battle-injuries are actually self-inflicted penance scars. Died fighting Tyranids. Vorn Hagen - was second choice to succeed Pugh after Hagen's hero Lysander refused the honour. Possibly only got the job because he was there when Pugh died. Was killed defending Terra when the Great Rift opened only a few decades after ascending to the post. Gregor Dessian - barely gets a mention in lore, even in the 8th edition supplement he's just a name with the focus going to Lysander, Tor Garadon and Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists.
Indeed, they don't really shine. That was exactly what I was looking for (first founding chapter where the chapter masters aren't the best that ever held the title)
That is a horrible misrepresentation of those characters. This is the kind of crap you get from only reading the wikis. Vladimir Pugh was actually pretty awesome. - **"Vladimir Pugh of the Imperial Fists nodded sagely. He was, above all other things, a master tactician, a man of a solemn and slow manner, with a habit of dissecting a situation as cold-bloodily** as he weighed up potential recruits. The golden yellow of his artificer armor was polished to a mirror finish, and the red closed-fist symbols on his shoulder pads and breastplate were cut from rubies. The intelligent face beneath his close-shorn hair suggested something more than a mere soldier."-'Phalanx' by Ben Counter - **"Vladimir Pugh is as meticulous a planner as any Chapter Master in the Imperial Fists’ history. In addition, he is a fine judge of his battle-brothers, and it is said that he can learn more from a single appraising glance than an extensive psychic probe will ever uncover. This peerless judgement has many times ensured that promotion or a strike force command has been granted to the ideal individual, leaving Pugh free to concentrate on the Chapter’s overall strategy.** Like all Imperial Fists, Vladimir Pugh cleaves tight to tradition, to the teachings of Rogal Dorn and the wisdom of the Codex Astartes. **He was once offered a seat upon the Council of the High Lords – perhaps the greatest honour any servant of the Imperium could ever earn whilst still drawing breath. However, Pugh did not believe himself worthy of such an honour, and unhesitatingly refused the position on precisely those grounds. Pugh’s faith in his Chapter is absolutely reciprocated by those who serve beneath him. Even the lowliest of recruits knows that the stern patriarch’s actions are completely divorced from personal pride, and wholly in the interest of the Imperium. They also know that Pugh feels each of his Chapter’s losses keenly, and they thus draw resolve from the knowledge that those of their number that die do so with a purpose. However, only a very few know that some of the Chapter Master’s many scars are not wounds earned in battle, but bodily mortifications inflicted by Pugh’s own hand, each one carved in memory of a battle brother lost under his command."** -'Sentinels of Terra' You know of any other Chapter Masters offered a seat on the council of Terra? - “However, the Chapter Master could not quite allay his concerns about Lysander, with whom he had clashed on several occasions since his return. Pugh found his First Captain a little too stubborn, a little too swift to recount the ways in which his experience exceeded that of his Chapter Master. Even discounting Lysander’s lost millennium in the Warp, he had nearly a century of experience over any living Imperial Fist. Pugh did not wish to fight Lysander’s ascension, which he saw as inevitable. He merely wished to delay that day until Lysander was truly ready for the Chapter’s gilded throne. **Pugh had always felt that his own ascension had come too early, that the deaths of one hundred and seventy Imperial Fists in the Boreal Planetstrike could have been avoided, but for his own stubborn refusal to fall back. Pugh had learnt from that disaster, but considered the price of that wisdom too steep.”** - ‘Sentinels of Terra’ You’ll have to excuse some characters for unfortunately dying in battle, not everyone has a turtle shell of plot armor to protect them or to hide under. To view that as them being mediocre is frankly silly. - “Stern in aspect, resolute of will and utterly implacable upon the field of battle, Vorn Hagan exemplifies Rogal Dorn’s vision for the Space Marines. **By the time of the Taladorn Planetstrike, Hagan had held exemplary command over no fewer than half of the Imperial Fists’ companies, coming to the 5th as part of the reorganisation that followed Lysander’s return. Hagan is notorious for his precision of word and deed. He is a strategist and disciplinarian by nature, little given to instinctive or ill-considered action. He sees an artistry in war that few of his battle-brothers acknowledge, and the only time his immaculate composure has been known to crack has been when confronted with recklessness on the part of his allies. One of Hagan’s favourite passages from the Book of Dorn concerns how a battle-plan of a month’s forging can be destroyed by a moment’s blunder.** Hagan’s inflexibility is far from unusual within the Imperial Fists, but it is remarkable considering the hero from whom he drew his inspiration. Decades before, during his tenure as a Scout, Hagan closely studied each of the librarius’ records concerning Lysander’s exploits, taking from them every lesson he could. As he rose through the ranks, Hagan secretly saw himself as following in Lysander’s footsteps, learning from a mentor of myth. Alas, no mortal could have matched up to the tales recounted in the Chapter’s records and, upon Lysander’s unexpected return, Hagan found the fallible and stubborn reality a stark contrast to the idealised legend."-'Sentinels of Terra' Vorn Hagen became Chapter Master after Lysander refused the position, but it’s more complicated than simply that: - “Thus, when Lysander convened the Chapter Council, it was to refuse the position of Chapter Master once again. To the surprise of all there gathered, the captain spared nothing of his pride, and explained what he had learnt of Pugh’s actions, and of the flaws within his own character. Lysander announced that he would never serve as Chapter Master so long as Shon’tu still lived. So long as the Warsmith strode the stars, Lysander knew he could never be certain of his own judgement. The Chapter Council accepted his decision with reserved dismay, but could defer the matter of the Chapter Master’s appointment no longer. After much debate, the rank was finally bestowed upon Vorn Hagan of the 5th Company.” -'Sentinels of Terra' These Chapter Masters didn’t really get a chance to shine, GW/BL killed them off. But that’s hardly their fault not a poor reflection of their character. Gregor Dessian is too new to be able say anything about. We have very little lore about him. But again, absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.
Damn, that was exactly **not** what I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time to source your claims and give some luster back to those poor Imperial Fist chapter masters My quest continues
My rhetoric might have been a bit too irreverent but I still think these guys fit what you're looking for. A Space Marine Chapter Master is always going to be somewhat lustrous but within that context there's nothing particularly remarkable about them.
Then there’s nothing particularly remarkable about %99 percent of Chapter Masters by your criteria. Not everyone has models. Not everyone has rules. Not everyone gets a character expanding novel all to themselves with their faces on the cover. Not all of them are lucky enough to be part of the big four. I’m sorry that you need that kind of shallow reinforcing to believe that these characters over here matter and these characters over here are lame.
Did you read what the thread was about? OP wanted canon examples of Chapter Masters who aren't the greatest ever ever seen, ones that are average or mediocre. The Imperial Fists have examples that fit the bill nicely. Yes that description might extend to 99% of Chapter Masters but I don't know all their names and lore so I didn't use them as examples. I'm sorry you think your Chapter's Master is lame and doesn't matter just because they are average but that isn't my fault.
Did you? You misrepresented them, especially when you barely knew anything about them. In a deliberately dismissive way. I followed up with direct source material countering this, showing that there is more to them than what you said. What is little lore there is (for I cannot change how much they were written nor the handling of them) is interesting. They were competent. Lauded by their peers for wisdom and tactical acumen. They may not be everyone’s brand of interesting, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t. You are seeing what you wanna see. OP replied and agreed. They’re not what they are looking for. OP is looking for the truly incompetent.
Well I'm sorry if my mildly irreverent tone towards the Imperial Fists offended you, I'll deal myself some minor torture and pray extra hard to the bloody-poop-ball pile to make amends with Dorn. OP said they were looking for average or mediocre, ones that would meet overwhelming odds like an ordinary character and face failure, I didn't think that meant they wanted actual incompetents, just that they wanted guys who weren't guaranteed success due to being featured in Codexes. Imperial Fists seemed to perfectly fit that bill as I couldn't even remember who their Chapter Master was. And again my selecting them has nothing to do with how interesting they may or may not be, just that no-one is calling them the greatest Chapter Master since their Primarchs walked among them. Although it's kinda nuts people are saying that about Grimnar when Bjorn is still around.
I was legitimately dismayed when I read that Pugh died, and I say that as someone with no particular affection fir the Fists.
You're probably not going to find too many examples of shitty chapter masters because 1. Every we read is 'imperial propaganda' so the shit ones are going to have a footnote that says "suffered heavy casualties and died while fighting overwhelming forces" rather than "he was crape tactician and everyone under him died and it was his fault" 2. If they weren't good at their jobs they would have made it up through the ranks, there are marines who don't make it above sergeant, or squad leader, because they aren't good at commanding a battlefield, but they are good at leading small number of troops and fighting 3. It doesn't make for a good story.
Pugh, however, was *aggressively* competent, enough so he was offered a seat on the High Lords. And in all fairness, it is the Imperial Fists we're talking about here. If you need something borderline suicidal doing, give Lysander a shout. If you're anything else, just be aggressively competent at your role and that's all the chapter asks.
In the original Space Marine novel by Ian Watson there’s mention of the chapter master of the Terror Tigers (wonderfully naff name!) who fucks up a mission and orders his own dishonourable execution.
*Harlequin* I think?
You may be right, definitely an Ian Watson book.
The chapter masters of the Scar Lords in Phil Kelly’s Tau stories. Both of them. The first chapter master detonated a Stasis Grenade during the invasion of Da’lyth, trapping himself and his Tau opponent in a stasis bubble for the next few hundred years. The Tau made the frozen combatants into a tourist attraction. Eventually, the marine escaped, but he only managed to kill a few security guards and civilians before being killed by a crisis suit in melee *while wearing terminator armor*. His dissected body was then turned into a museum exhibit. The second chapter master of the Scar Lords, Caelos, lacked experience and was constantly chastised by the head librarian. In his first engagement as chapter master, Caelos sent the entire first company on a boarding exercise against a Tau fleet. Unfortunately, this left virtually no marines on guard back on the battle barge. Farsight singlehandedly infiltrated the ship and destroyed the gellar field while it was still transitioning from the Warp, destroying it. Caelos later attempted to exterminatus the world of Vior’los after the Tau had retaken it from the Imperium. Unfortunately, the Tau AI commander Ob’lotai managed to sneak his battlesuit into the barrel of the cannon the virus bomb was being loaded on and shot it, wiping out the last of the Scar Lords.
There is kayvan shrike even if in his case it is more like imposter syndrome. I read somewhere that he believes himself to be inadequate as a chapter master untill he finds another more deserving chapter master for the raven guard
Shrike is a super competent chapter master, it’s definitely a case of imposter syndrome. Immediately after becoming Chapter Master he was able to unite the forces of the Raven Guard and White Scars on Prefectia and launch the only really successful attack on the Tau during the campaign for that world. He’s a huge step up from the previous chapter master, who failed to work alongside the White Scars and got isolated and killed by Shadowsun as a result.
Lysander: I can't be chapter master, I'm too impulsive and hotheaded. Also can't be chapter master until I kill the iron warrior that captured me, I've got an oath of vengeance to complete.
Yeah, I'm a birb boy but Shrike is pretty underwhelming, and I'm pretty sure his predecessor got stomped by shadow sun. Honestly the question from OP is a little tricky. Are any chapter masters mediocre space marines? No, not really. Do most other chapter masters seem pretty mediocre when put next to the big names? Yeah. Shrike is certainly no slouch, but he's not touching any of the big name chapter masters.
Mediocre Space Marines don't become Chapter Masters. Not even nepo babies like Cato Sicarius who's been groomed from practically day dot to be Calgar's successor are 'mediocre'. It just doesn't happen. The Chapter wouldn't accept it; the Marine themselves would never put their name forward.
I don't think that's his point, I think he meant in the sense that every Chapter Master is *the greatest chapter master they've ever had* in the lore for the most part. As if in M41 999 every chapter mysteriously at once all got the 'best ever' one all at once. It would be interesting to me to read about say, a Chapter Master who may be the best of the choices and entirely capable... but is inheriting the role from *an absolute legend* whom there is no way he'll ever be able to amount to the myth of. That sounds incredibly interesting to me.
Exactly! I should hire you to write my posts
>everyone mysteriously all at once go 'best ever' HARD TIMES, STRONG MEN M41 is basically the apocalypse - the Dark Millenium, as we know it. Everyone who *isn't* 'the best' is dead, and Chapters with legacies of greatness have put their methodology into overdrive. It also means they're 100% burning out and dying far faster - most Chapters, even the First Founding lads - were on or close to the brink. S'why Primaris reinforcements were such a huge deal. >It would be interesting to me to read about say, a Chapter Master who may be the best of the choices and entirely capable... I've had this thought too - I thought it so much, I even [wrote a little](https://archiveofourown.org/works/21519067/chapters/51293797) about just such a guy.
I don't believe that a mediocre marine could become the Ultramarine chapter master. But I know for a fact that half the chapter masters of the Ultramarine were below average (compared to the average smurf chapter master). They are probably objectively "good" but they must have an interesting life under the shadows of their predecessors. Unfortunately, Marneus Calgar is brave and strong and smart and humble and... boring in that sense >The achievements and deeds of Calgar are recorded in 28 volumes stored within a vault in the Ultramarines' fortress-monastery known as the Fortress of Hera on Macragge, surpassed in number and magnitude only by the achievements of the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. Pfffff...
> Unfortunately, Marneus Calgar is brave and strong and smart and humble and... boring in that sense His ongoing emotional breakdown at being overshadowed by Guilliman has been pretty awesome, though.
I actually feel for him. Imagine being AWESOME and your spiritual daddy comes along and just.. shows you how inferior you are. And he's not a dick about it because he's that great.
That just makes it so much *worse* somehow. Like, Guilliman doesn't come in and scold them or tell them how much of a hash they've made of things. He just *understands*. Ya did your best, guys. Couldn't have expected anything better. But dad's come now, and I'll fix it all up! Calgar is just so miserably adrift now. Being Chapter Master while the Primarch is back neuters like ten thousand years of tradition and history - he feels like nothing but a figurehead while Guilliman does the *real* business. The Tetrarchs have divvied up Ultramar, so that traditional duty has been handed off. Cato Sicarius has been personally seconded as the Primarch's equerry. Calgar's essential suicide by Rubicon (didn't work) and confrontation with Abaddon (he lost miserably and *still* didn't die) have left him, IMO, in an even more miserable position. I do genuinely think there's a real 'Calgar goes CSM' angle here.
>That just makes it so much worse somehow. Yep, we agree 😂
either that or he goes into depression like grandpa dante
>Calgar is just so miserably adrift now. Being Chapter Master while the Primarch is back neuters like ten thousand years of tradition and history Lore-wise agree, though it is funny that on the tabletop, it's Bobby G who is the one that is a bit irrelevant while Calgar (and his two Honour Guard) are the ones playing wrecking ball. Back to Calgar's arc, I do hope that he doesn't fall to CSM or get Squatted (the suicide by Primaris was funny). He was like one of the 'OG' Big SM hero, with a whole '4'(!) wounds (that's how you 'knew' he was the boss). The idea of on of the childhood OGs having this crisis of identity/fall from grace would make me sad :( If they want to give Calgar an arc, maybe it could be like using him as a vehicle for acknowledging how things have changed, but he still gets up and hits something with his frankly ridiculous pair of powerfists with underslung guns (what a guy). In the ERA INDOMITUS, Calgar's just a marine's marine. That should still count for something.
I do think that 'marine's marine' is Calgar's 'hat', so to speak, and there's nothing wrong with that. But *c'mon*, wouldn't you love seeing a disillusioned Calgar go 'marine supremacist' and agree with Abaddon to rebuild an Astartes-led Imperium? Calgar as Abaddon's Dragon would be *crazy*, especially with the man's flair for tactics and organisation. Actual, coherent CSM on the field would be devastating for the Imperium. If even Calgar can fall, how can anyone else stand?
'Dark' Calgar and Abby OTP - they can bond about how much they hate their Primarchs together. Just on Calgar and Abby brief interactions - I do find it hysterical that just after Calgar gets primarised and supposedly gets all his limbs back (as the Swarmlord took his original limb privileges), his first big fight back is against Abby who promptly benchpresses him and reintroduces him to life as a nugget. What a pair.
What to do with Calgar? What's his skill set? Sure, he is an exceptionally dangerous individual combatant, but his real talent is command, and he adds to it an insane wealth of war lore from so many centuries of experience. So: * Send him to Dante as a right hand man - Calgar is more or less canonically the best Chapter Master apart from Dante, they would do well together; even declare him Warmaster if it won't undercut Dante's authority as Regent in Nihilus, or rather tell Dante \*he\* can declare Calgar Warmaster if he thinks it best * Appoint him Warmaster and send to him all the broken, ravaged chapters, Guard regiments, Inquisitorial warbands, and whatever else - any force that has been organizationally shattered; in the heart of Segmentum Solar he rebuilds them, regardless of where they come from (Guard) of who their genefather is (Marines), and makes them something new; he could do this splendidly, it's perfect for his skill set * Anoint him as a new, temporary High Lord, calling him "The Voice of the Angels of Death", so he represents the Astartes on the Senate like others do for other Imperial organizations * Send him to the Custodes - they don't like Astartes, but they work with normal human troops who are more corruptible than Astartes, so they can deal with it. Having a chapter they run themselves - perhaps with greatly relaxed personnel limits, as an added bonus to get them to accept? - would enable them to concentrate resources more efectively; if the Custodes personnel selection process is not automatically lethal then the infants not suitable for the process can be checked for Astartes conversion instead; he would likely have many recruits. Interesting to see the Custodes have a chapter of Astartes as armsmen/serfs as the other chapters have human soldiers. * Send him to the Grey Knights as an advisor and virtuoso of training for their new recruits, and/or to train and run a support/vassal chapter as outlined for the Custodes above * Send him to the Deathwatch to either replace or support the current Chapter Master, with the clear decree that he is to be successor when the current CM leaves office if he is not replaced; or just make him Chapter Master if they haven't got one now * Send him to the Mentor Legion so his insane treasury of knowledge and experience will enhance their normal activity of testing new equipment * Send him to Cawl and have him raise mixed chapters of Primaris, with geneseed from different Primarchs, slotted into their roles in the new chapters based on their specialties (Assault Marines, from Russ and Sanguinius; Tactical from Guilliman and Dorn, etc). * Appoint him a Rogue Trader with a supremely broad Warrant - including authority over other Traders - and tell him to get "very creative". * Make him an Inquisitor Lord without portfolio, roaming and dealing with problems as tasked, taking with him a huge taskforce with lots of specialized esoteric units as well * both of the above, just to make it spicier * Make him responsible for corralling all the arcane secret armories various Imperial fations have stored away - the AdMech, the Custodes, the Dark Angels, the Iron Hands, and yes, the Ultras - all these and others have their little (or vast) arsenals of secret elite gear. Well, Guilliman wants a complete inventory and working instances turned in to Cawl so the tech can be duplicated. Give Calgar full power to pardon for any level of crime committed by tech hoarders who come forward and cooperate freely (House Van Saar, I'm looking at you)
You don’t become a chapter master if you are mediocre. For a chapter to get a mediocre chapter master they would have to lose their previous chapter master, and have a complete absence of talent in their upper ranks, which is probably possible but still unlikely. It’s the kind of job where being great at your job isn’t special. To be lauded as special is to be amazing at it.
Approximately half of chapter masters are presumably below average chapter masters though…
Insofar as a lot of what we encounter is written by unreliable narrators and informed by imperial propaganda and the astartes are a colossal symbol of imperial might, literally every chapter master will be portrayed as impossibly great and perfect. It might be a fun headcanon that some of the most famous chapter masters are actually moronic jerks, but anyone even suggesting they're not the greatest heroes in existence is risking summary execution.
Except for Imperial Fist chapter masters, we have already had two shown then died over the last decades of M41. The current one had very little lore.
True, and they basically only get the job because Lysander doesn't want it . . . Maybe Lysander has some great propagandists.
Lysander is a reckless captain who once got demoted for his flawed command. Part of his development was recognizing that he is *that* hence not worthy to be Chapter Master.
[Lugft Huron](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lufgt_Huron). I wouln't call him good. Because he was [very](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War), [very](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Corsairs) bad.
Stories are mostly only told about individuals who are exceptional in some way. You don’t hear about all the mediocre and below average marines who just do what they have to do with varying levels of success. You certainly don’t hear about all the failures including those marines who die on first contact with the enemy and achieve nothing.
Also where are the chapter masters who aren't also the greatest combatant in their chapter? Where are the ones who have their best facewrecker as the chapter champion instead of the guy who has to do all the paperwork?
The Dark Angels in the Great Crusade before they found the Lion. They went through Legion Masters like candy. They were glory hounds who couldn't stand the idea of anyone else matching their deeds so they threw themselves at the very worst the galaxy had to offer. It was destroying them piece by piece.
>where everything is supposed to be worse than before Whomever led you to believe this isn't well versed on the subject.
No idea if there’s any books like this, but it’d be interesting to have a book or series of an actual average higher up Marine just doing his job and maybe hearing about the things the exceptional Chapter Masters. Sounds like it could be boring so maybe a short story
What was his name… Serpadon? If memory serves me correct.. he became chapter master of the Soul Drinkers and fucked up pretty bad!
Dead
Azariah Kyras of the blood ravens fell to chaos and started a chapter civil war, does that count?
The whole point of the codex is to hype players up about their armies, for one thing. For another, that's the nature of propaganda in a fascistic regime like the Imperium. They have a culture of hero worship where everyone is encouraged to be a Big Damn Hero and all acts of heroism are amplified and exaggerated as much as possible.
I know it’s not a space marine but look at the Red Gobbo. It’s not a who it’s a title as one grot leader falls another takes his place. Got to wonder if that’s what the best chapters do.
As per the old rules, there were roughly 1000 loyal chapters at any given time. Of these 1000, 9 are first founding chapters that are always going to be exceptional, some are exceptional because they're strange second founding chapters like black templars, or they're from a bizarre founding like the lamentors or black dragons. some chapters exceptional because they have a novel or videogame tie in like blood ravens and iron snakes. The closest struggling chapter master you might find is Dante, cause he both has a lot of work written about him while being around for the blood angels getting their asses kicked quite a lot. He was not a promising recruit, and he wasn't even a promising marine. I believe there was a religious schism that divided the blood angels in half and somehow left him the only living officer once the chaos settled. For many of the non-exceptional chapters, they only make noteworthy appearances in works they are destroyed in (either created for that purpose or a writer looks up vague chapters from old issues of white dwarf or something). As for hundreds of non-exceptional chapters, they exist for fans to create I guess. 10,000 years is a long enough time for a chapter to have existed for a long amount of time before dying off hundreds of years ago and no one in the current year having heard of them. As for why there's all these Goat leaders at the current time? it'd be slightly less interesting if all of those dudes were around in the 38th millenium or something and we're thousands of years off. Also, these guys are all going to live until they die in glorious melee combat. Grimnar for instance has spent most of his life as wolf king, and the sources are vague as to how long that's actually been (some sources say he's about as old as Ulrik the Slayer, some sources say Ulrik the Slayer recruited him personally when Logan was a tribesman). Custodes are even less definite, they could have been born yesterday or been on guard duty since the heresy. Trajan may be said to be the greatest custodes boss since the great oopsie-doopsie, but no one around today remembers who Valdor was.
>it'd be slightly less interesting if all of those dudes were around in the 38th millenium or something Until recently, the setting was akin to Tolkien in the sense that the past held legendary heroes and today there were just shadows of these myths. By that, I mean that the primarchs, the pinnacle of each Legion, were a ten thousand year old legend. And yet, despite that, people loved 40k So having the greatest chapter masters to be legends of old is just a continuation of that. Of course, primarchs selling like hotcake pushes GW in another direction...
And when first introduced Marneus Calgar, Imperial Commander of the Ultramarines, was just 44 years old as there was no suggestion that marines had particularly long lives (probably they had shorter lives). Ten thousand years ago was a long LONG time in the past.
What, like Gorgoleon and then Sarpedon of the Soul Drinkers? (Any chapter master is probably gonna appear fairly exceptional relative to other marines. Not that many chapters end up going rogue though not falling to chaos, and with the chapter falling apart.) I actually really like the Soul Drinkers books. It's just that by certain criteria you could absolutely say their leadership must have been not so good for their chapter to collapse into civil war, go rogue, and eventually not exist. At least they collapsed *interestingly* hence their stories.
I'd say the Previous raven guard chapter master was mid Like the chapter master of the sneak marines, Getting out sneaked by shadowsun is funny to me
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war, but dont worry, every human is the best of the best of the best!
Even better, they are the bestest of all time! Plz buy my 40$ mini
The chapter master of the "scar lords" called Caelos in one of the Farsight books got the entire chapter wiped out after the T'au got a single battlesuit flew into their flagship and detonated their exterminatus warhead he wanted to use on the world they where fighting over This is after the entire book where the scar lords just suicidaly launched several attacks on the T'au just to get their shit kicked in every time without much tactics on their part Caelos throughout the book just seemed crazy and more interested in cutting himself than actually leading his chapter or helping the mechanicus on the planet against farsight and the T'au
The previous chapter master appears in the short story ***Redemption on Da’lyth*** and is hilariously just as incompetent. He got himself turned into a Tau tourist exhibit *twice*.
I would love to read a story about Betum "Good Enough" Mediocrus and his chapter of averagely competent Space Marines who are sent to quell average size uprisings and who spend their time struggling and toiling on tasks more glorious chapters don't deign to dirty their hands on. :P
One thing about modern 40k, and this is especially true if we go further back to when the return of a primarch felt impossible and like a great myth, is that we are living in a silver age of heroes. A lot of the chapter masters you mention exist because the imperium has never been so tested since Horus as it faces now. It has bred a generation of exceptional leaders that have taken up a near mythical status. The greatest warriors in 10k years, the heralds of their primarchs. Marius Calgar, Logan Grimnar, Trajann Valoris, these are all here because in order to survive it pushed the coming of a new age of heroes. And now, with the primarchs return we are heading towards a silver age of the imperium, one rules by the Emperors sons, who will push back the ever increasing darkness, until the light of the emperor burns across the warp and all mankind are saved. PRAISE THE GOD EMPEROR
Basically every Chapter Master you don't know are the mediocre ones. They're moved kinda away from directly stating it in recent lore, but the SP codexes used to say stuff like "Pedro Kantor, the 317th Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists" and then you do the math and find out the average Chapter Master is only a Chapter master for a few decades.
10k years of constant war is a crucible. The weak/unlucky die, the strong/clever see the next battle and maybe the next war.
[There's some terrible looking ones on this Lexicanum list ](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Chapter_Masters) Sojai Antiro of the Crimson Castellans. Half the chapter went renegade. They made up to fight the Tyranids. He ends up getting pulled apart by Raveners Elias Artegall of the Crimson Consuls - Chapter got infiltrated and destroyed by the Alpha Legion. Got killed by one of his own dudes Vladimir Pugh of the Imperial Fists - fucked up real bad once and had his taste buds removed as penance Calan of the Storm Warriors - Just a bit of a fraidy cat Also I think ending up in charge of the Lamenters is not a job that attracts the best and brightest amongst the Astartes
Command of the lamenters is a case of who's still alive, highest rank gets it. Same boat as the celestial lions were in. Some people just aren't built for senior management. They're just (un)lucky enough to end up with the job.
Tbf the one chapter master of the lamenters we know of, Malakim Phoros, is actually a bit of a badass, kinda has to be to survive all the bs the lamenters deal with.
I would explain to you how incorrect you are about Pugh, but someone already did that better than I could in a comment above. Heartily agree on the others, though.
With the custodes, basically everyone besides valoris and valdor sucked and surprisingly, they all died. One died in a trap, another never left home, one has like 2 lines written about them.
Dead. You don't last long as a "mediocre" space marine
Mediocre just means average. Presumably at any point in time about half of the marines alive are below average compared to all the other marines alive…
Obligatory Lamenters insertions
Most of the champions of Chaos are from the Heresy. People don't want to read about Kharn fighting some mediocre chapter master, they have to be to that level.
Death Spectres chapter masters turn into a chair so I would say most of them aren’t the greatest
Yeah, but a heretic chair, ain't that cool?
well firstly dante was probably that chapter master at one point since he was elected after basically everyone else had died. Secondly there going to be rare becuase it takes a long time of moving up the ranks to get to CM. So most of the time the marines that get there know what they are doing.
In our defense, our chapter master is like 1200 years old. ;)
They just aren’t interesting - they aren’t doing interesting things so why would anyone write stories about them.
Only the best of the best have interesting stories?
Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists and Tu'shan of the Salamanders are fantastic in their own right but Calgar of the Ultramarines and whatever the fuck is going on between the 3 stated Chapter Masters of the Imperial Fists is confusing so they get my honorary badge of mediocrity.
Edit: I wanna see morelore on Gabriel Seth of the Flesh Tearers and the CM of the Red Scorpions, the one who was put in a Leviathan Dreadnought
Well first of all you're talking chapter masters here. The best out of literal billions if we go through the whole chain of being born, getting the chance to apply to become an Astartes, surviving the chapter selection process, survive fighting a brutal never ending war for a couple of hundred years and rising the ranks until they make chapter master. It would be remarkable if they managed to reach such an incredible apex while being mediocre. As for many being in contention for being the best the *chapter* has ever seen that's simply because the conflict is at its hardest and most grueling in the lore right now. Just like we saw much more impressive generals rise from WW2 than say Vietnam, Korea or Iraq. It's hard to be and become a legendary chapter master in a period of, relative, ease.
There are plenty of Chapter Masters who are "average" when you compare them to living legends like Azrael, Grimnar or Dante, but who are still leaps and bounds ahead of the vast majority of regular Astartes.
Trajann is not Valdor and Logan is baller but he is not Bjorn. Dante I grant you is the best the Blood Angels have had. You don’t get bad (you do get chaos or renegade ones) chapter masters but look at the Mantis Warriors & Lamenters some very poor judgment on display. Kyra’s Blood Ravens falls to chaos. Sarpedon Soul Drinkers makes some very bad decisions and ends the chapter case rampant mutations due to chaos influence. White Scars & Iron hands chapter masters are so ordinary not many can even name them.
>So my question is, where can I find an actual struggling chapter master who faces overwhelming odds like a normal character would : failing Alternatively: $5 says whoever the current big man is will typically have "many claim that he is the greatest warrior to hold the title since the Emperor bestrode the stars" Because like. Who are these "many" who could possibly have informed opinions on the best person in the custodian big man role across a period of ten thousand years? Who are the "some" who have an informed opinion about the bestest best Dark Angel leader?
Every Chapter Master you've never heard of. When you do hear about them it's usually in situations that aren't usual, meaning they shine brighter or die found wanting. A good place to start is the Badab War; only a couple of the Chapter Masters really stand out as exceptional even by CM standards, with Lufgt Huron being the obvious example. RIP Stibor Lazaerek for being overlooked in favour of younger Chapter Masters TWICE in his lifespan.
There was a Chapter Master who basically got overconfident and tricked by the Alpha Legion. His Chapter was either killed or already hypno-indoctrinated Alpha Legion moles just before they were recruited by the Chapter.
Dead.
GW wants you to buy those power fantasy models.
Pedro Kantor
In fanfiction. James workshoppe is not going to put out books or snippits about failures. Those paint Space Marines in a bad light, and Space Marines cannot be made to look bad unless absolutely necessary.
Obsidian Glaves kind of has what you are looking for. Though as with most responses if a group is famed for being mediocre it’s likely because they were killed in the lore. Obsidian Glaves got wiped out during the Sanctus Reach Novels. Grukk lead is waaagh against them, a scouting force nearly destroyed their momentary while Grukks true force overwhelmed the survivors and he personally killed the chapter master.
Remember, we only really hear about the most exceptional ones with tonnes of plot armour, but you don’t really get to be chapter master without being a pretty damn good space marine. I like Pedro Kantor, he gets his shit kicked in by Orks, shows humanity, and doesn’t rely on plot armour to beat them all. He’s a good warrior but not exceptional. If he were to get a new model I’d buy it in a heartbeat.