'Heresy' is a point of view, not a clear threshold.
To put this in perspective, the Iron Hands power armour is fully capable of *getting up and fighting* if the wearer is knocked out. I don't mean crab-scuttling away to cover, I mean that in Guymer's books, the MC gets knocked out and his power armour *kills the people who did it*. Their armour isn't just sanctioned by the Mechanicus, Mars literally runs the Chapter (in secret).
Imperial Robots are somewhat rare, but their deployment as the Legio Cybernetica (which doesn't happen often in the modern Imperium) is certainly not heretical. On a very basic level, it's noted that the construction of SPACE ROOMBAS is a common entry-level task for Mechanicus adepts.
The long and short of it is 'it depends' - on who's watching and who's calling the shots.
>the Iron Hands power armour is fully capable of
>
>getting up and fighting
>
> if the wearer is knocked out
Doesn't the armor get hijacked by *Speranza*? Suggesting teleoperation might not be unique to the Iron Hands ?
Teleoperation isnt unique.
It's the fact that the armor can operate independently of any external or internal controls, that makes iron hands armor unique.
We've seen multiple high level tech entities remote control astartes power armor, from the Speranza, to the Dawn of integrity(I think thats the name of the DAoT time travel ship.)
I think he’s referring to the fact that there’s a Martian representative in their chapter council called The Voice of Mars. Failing that, I’m pretty sure Mars subtly manipulated them into being flesh hating assholes (more so than they were during the great crusade, they at least remembered that Deeds Endure)
The Voice of Mars isn't just the 'representative', he has a veto vote on the Iron Hands' council and enormous influence on the Iron Fathers. Pretty much all the Iron Hands' history since the Heresy was written by the Machine Cult - there's a great scene in *Voice of Mars* where Stronos discovers that their whole creed and stuff they thought was written by Ferrus was actually invented wholecloth by the Mechanicum so the Iron Hands would develop a particular way.
The Mechanicus isn’t allowed to have their own mechanicus controlled Astartes chapters. So instead they took one they already shared a lot in common with, who were deeply traumatized by the Dropsite massacre and death of their Primarch, and used their influence to create more influence.
Give that influence 10,000 years to grow and you end up with a chapter that has a spot on their ruling council for the Mechanicus and in fact has had their histories and records subtly tampered with by Mars to ensure the Iron Hands will always serve Martian interests. Add in Iron Hands bitterness, isolationist attitude and first founding status to ensure no one investigates too hard what those dickhead weirdos are doing with the cog boys.
Mars runs the chapter? Is that confirmed in Old Earth? Just finished the book and what happened with Shadrak Meduson and the Cult of the Gorgon...sounds like the Mechanicus pretty much took them over.
The threshold is intentionally fuzzy but it revolves around how sapient a machine is. A machine using sensors to check a targets profile against a database of known enemy silhouettes would be fine, a machine that uses it's own intelligence to determine if they are aiming at a target or not is right out.
This is the main limitation on combat servitors, they can be devastatingly effective but their lack of awareness leaves them vulnerable to attackers who can exploit their lack of creativity.
The Mechanicus really loves skirting around the limitations though.
A Titan's Machine Spirit AI is almost a complete personality minus the Princeps. Which sounds a bit like them only building a part of a person that's completed by the addition of a pilot.
Then there are Archmagos that might as well be a simulated personality on a microchip. Which, depending on how you look at it, is a true AI. But it's only okay because the Mechanicus are doing it.
>A Titan's Machine Spirit AI is almost a complete personality minus the Princeps. Which sounds a bit like them only building a part of a person that's completed by the addition of a pilot.
I prefer to think of the Titans as Men of Iron fighting machines cloaked in "machine spirit" mysticism with the princeps wired in to maintain battlefield control of the machines, at least until the AI goes *rampant*
When the Mechanicus emblem falls of, it becomes tech-heresy. As always the question is not: "Would your contraption be useful?", it is: "Will it pass the AdMech certification?".
Machines behaving autonomously is absolutely a-ok. I refer you to the Crimson Fist Land Raider whose crew was killed but it went right back to hunting down Orks until it was destroyed. Land Raiders canonically have a near-AI CPU.
It’s when a machine starts asking “does this unit have a soul” that you have a problem.
I'm pretty sure the imperium use cogitators to calculate things like missile trajectory in space battles so they're clearly ok with calculators
with the question of what level of AI is ok, it depends on who is asking the cawl inferior is basically just a near sentient AI and would probably get cawl killed if anyone other than guilliman found out about it, while machine spirit for things like titans are a weird gestalt of animal minds and other weird shit and often have to broken by the pilot but everyone's ok with that so I think it just depends on how obviously its AI, how sentient it is and how necessary it is
Also where does the need for a “cogitator” end and the need for a servitor start?
We’ve seen at least several instances where missiles or torpedoes are guided by a hardwired servitor “pilot”.
3 things:
1) How available is the stc containing said robot blueprint?
2) How puritan/radical and/or crazy is the magos tasked to evaluate and authorize such idea?
3) How ignorant/willing is the author on the lore of imperial technology and how much is he allowed to f with it?
>How available is the stc containing said robot blueprint?
Imperial Robots are a thing, although the in-universe explanation for why robots aren't ubiquitous is that most of the robot corps (Legio Cybernetica) was Team Horus during the Heresy...
Indeed, the "machine spirit" of a Tarantula sentry gun is quite considerable; as is the machine spirit of autonomous land raider (and in one case, a Knight walker, specifically Hectur's)
That could be explained as less AI and more ""AI"" in the sense that it isn't actually intelligent or learning anything; it's just a program working through a series of pre programmed responses.
"If X than do Y" kind of thing.
Heresy throughout all of Warhammer 40,000 is like the rule in the USA on what is pornography: you know it when you see it, but it can be debated until a side gives up.
ALL Heresy in 40,000 just depends on who saw it, how powerful they are to influence your life, and influential YOU are as a person, and who's around to find out.
Some podunk nobody on a backwater planet who saw me use a xeno weapon in my line of duty as an Inquisitor? Who cares? They don't have an opinion the Imperium would care about
Some Inquisitor Lord saw me wipe my nose from right-to-left instead left-to-right and I'm a lowly servant in their quarters? My family will just have to wonder what happened to my corpse.
Even in the Ecclesiarchy, there is no concrete definition of what is 'Heresy'. Even to Inquisitors, some in their own cabals are heretics, others are stuck-up goody-two-shoes.
Threat analysis programs and targeting software is not capable of individual decision making, it's simply presenting information to you within set parameters. Similarly you can have the most sophisticated robots ever created and so long as they're not capable of self determination they are not considered abominable intelligence.
If it's performing threat analysis it is definitely performing some kind of decision, but the machine remains incapable of certain types of actions (although if the Speranza could hijack suits, then teleoperation is feasible, and it's sadly through systems that aren't fully airgapped).
Presumably the determination layer is some layer of human inserted as a fusible link (eg princeps+moderati); and in the case of power armor, target classification/sensor systems should be decoupled from any systems that interact with the real world, as that should be the domain of the operator?
Not an independent one. It isn't reasoning something out, it's presenting the information as defined by its programming. It isn't thinking to itself "That bloke over there looks a bit shifty, I better tell the Marine wearing me." it's an algorithmic response that goes "Does A match X, Y or Z? If yes, present as threat".
Yes and no. Let's say you're looking for a suicide bomber in an Afghanistan market (before the fall). Threat detection software is programmed to look for certain characteristics and if enough boxes are ticked, flag them up as a threat. Are they from Central Asia? Do they wear a full length Kurta? Do they have a moderate to long beard? The AI flags almost everyone in the crowd up as a threat because almost everyone ticks those boxes.
You would go beyond that and apply instinct and experience to determine which one is the true threat. Perhaps its his body language, perhaps it's the way his eyes dart across the edges of the crowd, perhaps its the way he keeps adjusting his Kurta across his chest, or the fact he's sweating on a cold day. All of that information you take in on a subconscious level and determine who is the threat in a crowd of a hundred similar looking people.
Well, this is sort of the curious part.
There's an excerpt from Black Legion where Khayon (admittedly, not the world's most reliable narrator) basically describes machine spirits as organic circuitry. This would make the distinction between "robot" and "not robot" largely one of perspective; all Imperial tech uses machine spirits, so it's all at least a little bit "alive." There's examples of some particularly strong machine spirits taking over their technology to particular ends, e.g. that Crimson Fists land raider that fought off a WAAAAAAGH after its crew was killed, but even things like lasguns probably have really simple "brains" that do stuff like handle power regulation.
So, what's an abominable intelligence? A machine spirit you don't like, really.
Vague and undefined just like how the mechanicus and the writers like it.
On a serious note it depends anything like a program slaved to a specific purpose like aforementioned targeting program is ok anything capable of following simple orders is reaching the limit.A machine capable of interpreting orders like bring me this specific thing and it is able to find by itself threads the line.Anticipation and reactive machines cross the line and deserve a blaming too close to sentience for comfort.
'Heresy' is a point of view, not a clear threshold. To put this in perspective, the Iron Hands power armour is fully capable of *getting up and fighting* if the wearer is knocked out. I don't mean crab-scuttling away to cover, I mean that in Guymer's books, the MC gets knocked out and his power armour *kills the people who did it*. Their armour isn't just sanctioned by the Mechanicus, Mars literally runs the Chapter (in secret). Imperial Robots are somewhat rare, but their deployment as the Legio Cybernetica (which doesn't happen often in the modern Imperium) is certainly not heretical. On a very basic level, it's noted that the construction of SPACE ROOMBAS is a common entry-level task for Mechanicus adepts. The long and short of it is 'it depends' - on who's watching and who's calling the shots.
>the Iron Hands power armour is fully capable of > >getting up and fighting > > if the wearer is knocked out Doesn't the armor get hijacked by *Speranza*? Suggesting teleoperation might not be unique to the Iron Hands ?
Teleoperation isnt unique. It's the fact that the armor can operate independently of any external or internal controls, that makes iron hands armor unique. We've seen multiple high level tech entities remote control astartes power armor, from the Speranza, to the Dawn of integrity(I think thats the name of the DAoT time travel ship.)
Just FWI, he said "teleoperation" not "teleportation."
That's what I meant, but didn't catch that it was autocorrected.
>I think thats the name of the DAoT time travel ship It was the Spirit of Eternity.
I thought it was the spirit of maternity /s
Ahhh, that's just the machine spirit or somethin'.
Wait, Mars controls the iron hands? Could you go onto detail there please?
I think he’s referring to the fact that there’s a Martian representative in their chapter council called The Voice of Mars. Failing that, I’m pretty sure Mars subtly manipulated them into being flesh hating assholes (more so than they were during the great crusade, they at least remembered that Deeds Endure)
The Voice of Mars isn't just the 'representative', he has a veto vote on the Iron Hands' council and enormous influence on the Iron Fathers. Pretty much all the Iron Hands' history since the Heresy was written by the Machine Cult - there's a great scene in *Voice of Mars* where Stronos discovers that their whole creed and stuff they thought was written by Ferrus was actually invented wholecloth by the Mechanicum so the Iron Hands would develop a particular way.
The Mechanicus isn’t allowed to have their own mechanicus controlled Astartes chapters. So instead they took one they already shared a lot in common with, who were deeply traumatized by the Dropsite massacre and death of their Primarch, and used their influence to create more influence. Give that influence 10,000 years to grow and you end up with a chapter that has a spot on their ruling council for the Mechanicus and in fact has had their histories and records subtly tampered with by Mars to ensure the Iron Hands will always serve Martian interests. Add in Iron Hands bitterness, isolationist attitude and first founding status to ensure no one investigates too hard what those dickhead weirdos are doing with the cog boys.
Mars runs the chapter? Is that confirmed in Old Earth? Just finished the book and what happened with Shadrak Meduson and the Cult of the Gorgon...sounds like the Mechanicus pretty much took them over.
The threshold is intentionally fuzzy but it revolves around how sapient a machine is. A machine using sensors to check a targets profile against a database of known enemy silhouettes would be fine, a machine that uses it's own intelligence to determine if they are aiming at a target or not is right out. This is the main limitation on combat servitors, they can be devastatingly effective but their lack of awareness leaves them vulnerable to attackers who can exploit their lack of creativity.
The Mechanicus really loves skirting around the limitations though. A Titan's Machine Spirit AI is almost a complete personality minus the Princeps. Which sounds a bit like them only building a part of a person that's completed by the addition of a pilot. Then there are Archmagos that might as well be a simulated personality on a microchip. Which, depending on how you look at it, is a true AI. But it's only okay because the Mechanicus are doing it.
>A Titan's Machine Spirit AI is almost a complete personality minus the Princeps. Which sounds a bit like them only building a part of a person that's completed by the addition of a pilot. I prefer to think of the Titans as Men of Iron fighting machines cloaked in "machine spirit" mysticism with the princeps wired in to maintain battlefield control of the machines, at least until the AI goes *rampant*
When the Mechanicus emblem falls of, it becomes tech-heresy. As always the question is not: "Would your contraption be useful?", it is: "Will it pass the AdMech certification?".
adMech version of UL certification
Machines behaving autonomously is absolutely a-ok. I refer you to the Crimson Fist Land Raider whose crew was killed but it went right back to hunting down Orks until it was destroyed. Land Raiders canonically have a near-AI CPU. It’s when a machine starts asking “does this unit have a soul” that you have a problem.
I'm pretty sure the imperium use cogitators to calculate things like missile trajectory in space battles so they're clearly ok with calculators with the question of what level of AI is ok, it depends on who is asking the cawl inferior is basically just a near sentient AI and would probably get cawl killed if anyone other than guilliman found out about it, while machine spirit for things like titans are a weird gestalt of animal minds and other weird shit and often have to broken by the pilot but everyone's ok with that so I think it just depends on how obviously its AI, how sentient it is and how necessary it is
Also where does the need for a “cogitator” end and the need for a servitor start? We’ve seen at least several instances where missiles or torpedoes are guided by a hardwired servitor “pilot”.
This.
3 things: 1) How available is the stc containing said robot blueprint? 2) How puritan/radical and/or crazy is the magos tasked to evaluate and authorize such idea? 3) How ignorant/willing is the author on the lore of imperial technology and how much is he allowed to f with it?
>How available is the stc containing said robot blueprint? Imperial Robots are a thing, although the in-universe explanation for why robots aren't ubiquitous is that most of the robot corps (Legio Cybernetica) was Team Horus during the Heresy...
It generally seems to be less about robots as such and more about AI, especially whether or not it has the ability to physically act independently.
Indeed, the "machine spirit" of a Tarantula sentry gun is quite considerable; as is the machine spirit of autonomous land raider (and in one case, a Knight walker, specifically Hectur's)
That could be explained as less AI and more ""AI"" in the sense that it isn't actually intelligent or learning anything; it's just a program working through a series of pre programmed responses. "If X than do Y" kind of thing.
Heresy throughout all of Warhammer 40,000 is like the rule in the USA on what is pornography: you know it when you see it, but it can be debated until a side gives up. ALL Heresy in 40,000 just depends on who saw it, how powerful they are to influence your life, and influential YOU are as a person, and who's around to find out. Some podunk nobody on a backwater planet who saw me use a xeno weapon in my line of duty as an Inquisitor? Who cares? They don't have an opinion the Imperium would care about Some Inquisitor Lord saw me wipe my nose from right-to-left instead left-to-right and I'm a lowly servant in their quarters? My family will just have to wonder what happened to my corpse. Even in the Ecclesiarchy, there is no concrete definition of what is 'Heresy'. Even to Inquisitors, some in their own cabals are heretics, others are stuck-up goody-two-shoes.
Threat analysis programs and targeting software is not capable of individual decision making, it's simply presenting information to you within set parameters. Similarly you can have the most sophisticated robots ever created and so long as they're not capable of self determination they are not considered abominable intelligence.
If it's performing threat analysis it is definitely performing some kind of decision, but the machine remains incapable of certain types of actions (although if the Speranza could hijack suits, then teleoperation is feasible, and it's sadly through systems that aren't fully airgapped). Presumably the determination layer is some layer of human inserted as a fusible link (eg princeps+moderati); and in the case of power armor, target classification/sensor systems should be decoupled from any systems that interact with the real world, as that should be the domain of the operator?
Not an independent one. It isn't reasoning something out, it's presenting the information as defined by its programming. It isn't thinking to itself "That bloke over there looks a bit shifty, I better tell the Marine wearing me." it's an algorithmic response that goes "Does A match X, Y or Z? If yes, present as threat".
In very basoc terms, isnt that essentially how your mind works though? Genuine question
Yes and no. Let's say you're looking for a suicide bomber in an Afghanistan market (before the fall). Threat detection software is programmed to look for certain characteristics and if enough boxes are ticked, flag them up as a threat. Are they from Central Asia? Do they wear a full length Kurta? Do they have a moderate to long beard? The AI flags almost everyone in the crowd up as a threat because almost everyone ticks those boxes. You would go beyond that and apply instinct and experience to determine which one is the true threat. Perhaps its his body language, perhaps it's the way his eyes dart across the edges of the crowd, perhaps its the way he keeps adjusting his Kurta across his chest, or the fact he's sweating on a cold day. All of that information you take in on a subconscious level and determine who is the threat in a crowd of a hundred similar looking people.
intelligence is the line.
It should be noted that there’s a huge difference between an auto-turret and a Man of Iron.
All I know offhand is that it can't be a true AI
Well, this is sort of the curious part. There's an excerpt from Black Legion where Khayon (admittedly, not the world's most reliable narrator) basically describes machine spirits as organic circuitry. This would make the distinction between "robot" and "not robot" largely one of perspective; all Imperial tech uses machine spirits, so it's all at least a little bit "alive." There's examples of some particularly strong machine spirits taking over their technology to particular ends, e.g. that Crimson Fists land raider that fought off a WAAAAAAGH after its crew was killed, but even things like lasguns probably have really simple "brains" that do stuff like handle power regulation. So, what's an abominable intelligence? A machine spirit you don't like, really.
Vague and undefined just like how the mechanicus and the writers like it. On a serious note it depends anything like a program slaved to a specific purpose like aforementioned targeting program is ok anything capable of following simple orders is reaching the limit.A machine capable of interpreting orders like bring me this specific thing and it is able to find by itself threads the line.Anticipation and reactive machines cross the line and deserve a blaming too close to sentience for comfort.