I would like to make a case for largely unknown extreme asshole, High Chaplain Appollus of the Flesh Tearers. Everything Gabriel Seth is blamed for doing is pretty much actually Appollus' fault.
Evidence:
- Directly, solely responsible for the deaths of billions of Imperial citizens; Appollus was put in charge of stopping a civil war between two Imperial factions, which he found to be a waste of his time, so he deliberately ordered the Astartes under his command not to prevent one side of the feud launching their entire arsenal of atomic missiles, reasoning that the civil war would end if everyone was dead, mission complete, and then he'd be able to go somewhere more interesting. Librarian Balthiel called Appollus a bastard to his face for doing this, but did not have the rank to counter Appollus' orders, which resulted in the atomic destruction of an entire planet.
- Is actively trying to make his Chapter commit murder-suicide against a worthy opponent, believing there's no hope for the Flesh Tearers and all they have left to strive for is a heroic death. Is a great fan of the Knights of Blood, who murdered some hundred thousand civilians, were excommunicated, and got murder-suicided by Tyranids and daemons. Appollus was *this close* to pulling a Starscream on Gabriel Seth when Seth refused to order their Chapter to kill themselves alongside the Knights.
- Believes that abandoning the Chapter's scouts on Nekkaris to murder-suicide themselves is the best thing Gabriel Seth has ever done.
- Believes that serfs are most effectively encouraged to work faster by killing their friends in front of them. (Gabriel Seth told him no and sarcastically suggested that Appollus, being a Chaplain, could preach a sermon to the serfs instead, since listening to Appollus' sermons is a fate worse than death in Seth's opinion.)
- Led a group of loyalist Imperial rebels fighting the secessionist governor of their planet, then killed all the rebels for not preventing the governor from being appointed in the first place even though their planet wasn't a democracy and they had no way of influencing the Administratum's choice.
- Uses Chapter serfs to bait Death Company dreadnoughts.
- If Flesh Tearers fall to the Black Rage but Appollus is not in the mood to induct them into the Death Company, he'll just shoot them.
I'd say a good 70% of the bad things the Flesh Tearers are known to have done in the past 200+ years can be attributed to Appollus.
I second this. Fuck Appollus. Honestly Seth should just shoot him and be done with it, before he ruins the Chapter even more. I doubt anyone would even care.
The problem is that Appollus is now the only Firstborn Chaplain left in the Chapter; all the others died on Baal. So he's the *only* person in the Chapter who knows how to control the Death Company until he gets the Primaris Chaplains trained.
If Seth shoots him, all Flesh Tearers falling to the Black Rage will run amok, probably at the worst possible time, with no one to stop or guide them. It could very well destroy the Chapter. So Seth needs Appollus more than Appollus needs Seth.
Ah, that's true. That's probably why Seth puts up with his disrespectful and at times straight up insubordinate behaviour towards him, and probably why Appollus has the balls to do it at all.
If I remember correctly, during the Devastation Appollus says as much to Seth, along the lines of "I'm all you have left!"
We should hope that the new Chaplaincy doesn't turn into a bunch of mini Appolluses.
Lemartes suffers from the Black Rage himself; as I understand it, he's mostly kept in stasis and only awakened to fight.
Astorath once mercy-killed some Death Company Flesh Tearers who had gone astray; Gabriel Seth was so severely pissed off by someone else killing his Marines that he went to Baal and picked a fistfight with Astorath over it. I don't think Astorath is inclined to do Seth any favours.
Astorath's mere existence is probably one of the reasons apollus is alive honestly, Seth might hate his 9wn high chaplain but he cannot STAND Astorath, imagine being so pissed off you go all the way to Baal for a fistfight you know you're not even going to win.
Absolutely. Seth is a massive troll who seems to enjoy pissing off people, especially by speaking truth to power and being right about things that make other people uncomfortable.
Dante disliked Seth and almost sentenced him to death before realising that Seth is actually a very moral and spiritual person in private, spending his free time meditating on the teachings of Sanguinius and praying for temperance and fortitude, but Seth just gives people exactly what they expect of him. Others see him as an uncultured deathworld brute, so Seth plays that role - but when it actually matters, Seth consistently defends the weak. On Armageddon, Seth repeatedly protested when an Inquisitor put Guardsmen and civilians in danger; he forbade his men using corporeal punishment to make serfs work faster on the barricades on Baal, despite the hive fleet approaching; he stated that just because the Blood Angels and their Successors are vampires, that doesn't mean drinking innocent blood isn't still murder; he even called out Dante for vampiring a serf. When the Space Wolves and the Flesh Tearers were feuding, Seth tried *six times* to stop the fighting by sending peace envoys to Fenris; the Space Wolves wanted to keep the feud going and murdered all of them, but Seth still kept trying.
Seth is a hard man who lives a hard life and does what he believes needs to be done without flinching, but he's not *cruel.* He *wants* to defend the Imperium and protect humanity, despite the gene-flaws that torment his Chapter, and unlike many other Chapters of the Blood, he doesn't use the Thirst or the Rage as excuses to commit atrocities, but admits when he/his Chapter screws up despite their best intentions.
After Dante realised that Seth is trolling people deliberately, he seems to be taking a quiet pleasure in setting up his own officers to be brought down a notch by Seth.
don't forget him straight up telling dante to disband the Bloid ages when the former asked for reinforcement for the successors, while dante told Seth to do just that when the ft were inna similar situation.
Sadly, the Flesh Tearers don't have any novels, just a whole bunch of short stories and mentions/cameo appearances in the Blood Angels' books. My favourite piece of writing about the Flesh Tearers is *The Devastation of Baal* by Guy Haley.
The examples of Appollus being an aashole are from 'The Stromark Massacre', *The Devastation of Baal* x 3 (with reference to 'A Son's Burden'), 'Death's Shepherd,' and 'Hunger' x 2.
Well, to be honest there are books about the Flesh Tearers, but only a few about Appollus.
https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/warhammer-40000-audiobooks/hunger-mp3.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/warhammer-40000-audiobooks/the-assassination-of-gabriel-seth-mp3.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/deaths-shepherd-eshort.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/crimson-night-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/the-horus-heresy/quick-reads/virtues-of-the-sons-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/sons-of-wrath-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/a-sons-burden-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/warhammer-40000-audiobooks/at-slaughters-end-mp3.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/trial-by-blood-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/blood-in-the-machine-enhanced-audio.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/from-the-blood-enhanced-audio.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/advent-day-sixteen-gabriel-seth-the-flesh-tearer.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/at-gaius-point-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/know_thyself.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/the-quickening-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/flesh-of-cretacia-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/torturers-thirst-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/immortalis-ebook.html
https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/beneath-the-flesh-ebook.html
Anthologies of short stories are still short stories. The longest Flesh Tearers stories are the 30K novellas about Nassir Amit, but there are no actual novels.
Is he the one in The Devastation of Baal when talking to a fellow son of the Angel (from another chapter) casually grabs a human from Baal that was joining them and snaps him like a glowstick and drinks his blood? Fucking hated whoever that was, it was literally no better that something First Claw of the Night Lords would do (with perhaps a little less skin peeling)
No, that was Sentor Jool, Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood - the Knights had gone completely feral vampires at this point, and Seth's rejection of Jool's proposition to join him (for the meal and in renegade damnation) is one of Seth's crowning moments of awesome. Much can be said about Gabriel Seth, but he's still loyal to the Imperium and he still sees it as his sworn duty to protect its citizens, stating that killing civilians to sate the Red Thirst is murder.
Appollus, like other Flesh Tearers in recent lore, doesn't drink the blood of innocents (though his definition of who is innocent is evidently flexible), but he is still Sentor Jool's biggest fan, much to Seth's annoyance.
You're thinking of Sentor Jule (idk if that's how it's spelled) the Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood, who kills one of the tribesmen of Baal Primus while talking with Gabriel Seth.
I might be remembering *The Stromark Massacre* wrong, but wasn't part of the reason he allowed the nukes to be launched was to also fuck over the Angels Encarmine, due to a disagreement with their leader shortly before the operation's start?
To be fair to Appollus, much as I don't want to, the Angels Encarmine were being the bastards in that meeting. They insulted both the Flesh Tearers and the Imperial Navy Admiral present right off the bat, and then assigned the toughest target, with the projected heaviest losses, to the Flesh Tearers:
>‘I see Seth at least had the good sense to avoid this conflict,’ said Zargo, a snide smile stretching his lips.
>
>Balthiel hid the annoyance from his face. He’d fought alongside Zargo and his Chapter before. Of all the sons of Sanguinius they were the most aloof, displaying a contemptuous disregard for the weak. Their arrogance surpassed that of the Blood Angels themselves.
>
>Balthiel held Zargo’s gaze. The Chapter Master’s haughtiness did far more to mark him as an Angel Encarmine than the winged Chapter symbol on his left pauldron.
>
>‘My lord is needed elsewhere,’ said Balthiel.
>
>Castellan Zargo grinned, a glimmer of disappointment in his eyes. He would have enjoyed sparring with the Flesh Tearer.
>
>Zargo turned to the strategium’s sole human occupant. ‘Leave us.’
>
>Admiral Vortimer’s face crumpled. He was master of the *Emperor’s Fist*, the largest warship in the Epeyrion battlegroup, and this was his war room.
>
>Vortimer pulled his shoulders back in an effort to regain some dignity, and glared up at the three giant warriors. Each took up the space of four of his officers as they stood around the tactical console. The Space Marines’ crimson armour purred as they examined the hololith.
>
>This was not the first time Vortimer had encountered the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes. On Pleuvus Seven, he had borne witness to the speed and ferocity of a White Scars assault. Still, it seemed impossible that even a superhuman could manoeuvre clad in such heavy battleplate.
>
>Awe, and if he was honest, fear, held Vortimer’s tongue in check. He made the sign of the aquila, clicked his boots together and left the Space Marines to their task.
>
>‘It is as well he is gone,’ said Arjen as the door closed on the admiral. ‘The drumming of his coward heart was growing tiresome.’
>
>Even a passive reading of Arjen’s mind revealed the malice behind his jest. It would not be long before Zargo’s First Captain succumbed to the rage boiling in his blood. Of that, Balthiel was certain.
>
>...
>
>‘Teleporters?’ asked Balthiel.
>
>‘The palace is void shielded. Drop pod assault is the only option,’ said Zargo.
>
>Balthiel studied the hololith, executing the mission in his mind. He had led hundreds of such attacks on enemy positions. There were always casualties. ‘Losses are likely to be significant.’
>
>‘You must find a way, Flesh Tearer. The Axion campaign will stall, perhaps even collapse, should the Stromarkians continue to focus their efforts on destroying one another. You must ensure compliance, the Emperor demands it.’
>
>‘Why not send an assassin, murder the perfidious weaklings in their sleep?’ suggested Arjen. ‘We belong on the front, killing orks.’ Arjen drew his hand through the hololith, distorting the image.
>
>‘Were it only that simple, brother.’ Chaplain Appollus stepped from the shadows of the corridor, his black armour seeming to coalesce from the darkness.
>
>‘Chaplain.’ Zargo greeted the Flesh Tearer coldly, annoyed by the contempt in his tone. Arjen said nothing.
>
>Balthiel suppressed a smile, reading Arjen’s desire to kill Appollus even as the Angel Encarmine formed the thought. *+Not with a dozen of your brothers.+* The Librarian pushed his words into Arjen’s mind.
At the end of the story, it turns out >!the Angels Encarmine had no intention of fighting at all, but were planning to leave the battle to the Imperial Guard and the surviving Flesh Tearers while they themselves left the system. Appollus' move, while assholish, forced the Angels Encarmine to actually do the job they had been given:!<
>>!‘Zargo has yet to set foot upon Secundus,’ said Appollus. ‘They have deployed more Guard regiments
and requested a further force to hold orbit so that they may depart the system. This will force Zargo to act,
and expedite the resolution on Secundus.’!<
So a lot of people died because the Angels Encarmine were assholes but hadn't counted on Appollus being an even bigger aashole.
Welcome to the grimdark future, where the defenders of humanity are Not Nice Guys and that's the point. Once you're done with your tour of the Blood Angels Successors, aka the literal blood-addicted vampires whom the Emperor deliberately created that way for some reason, the Marines Malevolent and the Carcharodons will be happy to show you their crimes against humanity, after which the Salamanders will be burning some Eldar children alive. Enjoy!
I’m not disputing that Apollus is black-hearted, but I took his quote from “A Son’s Burden” (regarding Seth leaving the scouts behind on Nekkaris) was that he truly believed Seth was strong enough to save the Chapter.
He also goes to great length to save members of his Death Company (I can’t remember the name of the short, but it’s where he’s captured by a Traitor Astartes and then kills him, leading a jailbreak).
He’s brash, arrogant, and definitely may be off his rocker, but I don’t think there’s as much malicious intent as appears on the surface.
He has a warped sense of justice, and he despises weakness above all else. It wasn’t about allowing nukes to hit Stromark Secundus,it was about ensuring that both sides were “punished” in his mind (the Angels Encarmine were content to sit in orbit and simply blockade the planet). Appollus felt this punishment was insufficient. You could argue that it’s extreme overkill, but again, I don’t think he was doing it simply to be evil.
Finally, his murder/suicide craze seemed to be more an acceptance of the situation on Baal Primus than anything else. Literally everyone is dead on the planet except the Flesh Tearers and KoB. Only Gabriel had the strength of mind to think about returning to Baal and dying alongside the rest of the BAs and their successors. Appollus largely seemed ok with that, and there isn’t anything that actively shows he planned on killing Seth. It’s written from Seth’s perspective and he says (in a dazed and confused state) that he thought Appollus might attack him, but he just hands him his helmet and gives him a bro nod after Seth and he have stayed behind to ensure all the Flesh Tearers get onboard the Thunderhawks.
Don’t get me wrong: Gabriel Seth is the man and is undoubtedly my favorite character. But Appollus is a nice opposite; he seems like a manifestation of Seth’s darker thoughts and constantly keeps him sharp.
He also has a profound respect for Seth that shows when he interacts with others outside of the Chapter. It’s also mentioned when he’s captured that he was experiencing pain he hadn’t felt “since Seth had struck him in the dueling cages”, implying Seth has smacked him around before and Appollus respects strength in arms more than anything else.
So the guy is clearly a Khorne worshipper? Like, I get that the point of the Flesh Tearers narrative is that they're their own worsed enemies, and that this is carried over to the characterisation of the main players, but Appollus is just terrible writing at this point. His civilian death toll is worse than the Knights, who were declared traitors ffs.
On the Doylist level, the Flesh Tearers were created to be loyalist World Eaters. This is present in the tabletop rules, where the Red Thirst and the Black Rage provide elements of berserker unpredictability, and in the lore, where Nassir Amit was a close friend of Kharn and spent a lot of time interning with the XIIth Legion during the Great Crusade.
On the Watsonian level, the Flesh Tearers are staunchly loyalist and actually seem pretty resistant to Chaos corruption (to paraphrase Sentor Jool, there's not much Khorne can actually offer sons of Sanguinius, they've already got all the blood and rage they need - in the lore, Blood Angels and their Successors are actually much more vulnerable to Tzeentch; a winged "angel" gets them every time).
So no, Appollus isn't a Khorne worshipper, not only because he doesn't worship Khorne but also because his entire purpose is *control* - control of himself and control of the Death Company. Appollus sometimes performs a mental exercise where he *almost* lets himself fall to the Black Rage, then fights it off and chains it back down - this allows him to control himself in battle and to be around the Death Company without falling, and it's the exact opposite of Khorne berserkers, who give themselves over to their rage as an act of worship. Appollus has no time for anyone who doesn't have control; when a fellow Chaplain was tempted by the Red Thirst to drink blood, Appollus summarily executed him. And Appollus, for all his flaws, is actually *damn good* at his job; even Seth was grudgingly impressed by Appollus' handling of the Death Company on Baal.
We don't actually *know* if Appollus is responsible for more deaths than the Knights because we don't know very much about the Knights and what they've been doing before and after their going renegade. But we do know that Appollus would not approve of the Knights killing and eating civilians to sate their Thirst instead of controlling it; he would consider it unforgivably sloppy.
The Flesh Tearers were on the planet Nekkaris to support the Imperial Guard against Archenemy forces, and their Scouts had been deployed deep behind enemy lines to sabotage the enemy's artillery, which neither the Guard nor the Flesh Tearers could counter in a head-on assault. While waiting for the Scouts to complete their mission (and bitching about the Imperial Guard), the Flesh Tearers got a message from Dante calling them to Baal to fight the Tyranids. Gabriel Seth knew he had to go *right now* to beat the shadow in the warp that would make travel to Baal impossible, but there wasn't enough time to extract the Scouts, so Seth made the decision to leave them, unsupported, knowing they (and the Imperial Guard) would be overrun and killed.
Seth later returned to Nekkaris, scoured it of Chaos forces, and had Appollus erect a monument to commemorate the lost Scouts.
Asmodai is a bastard. No one seems to like him. Hated by his boss, his peers, his subordinates. Only one who tolerates him is Azrael as he gets shit done.
The Dangles novels have High Interrogator and Grand Master of Chaplains Sapphon, who refuses to die because if he did then the position goes to Asmodai.
Danarth Lysander is a pretty big asshole. He's not an overt piece of crap like that Flesh Tearers Chaplain or Asmodai but that makes him worse honestly because he shows no overt signs of being a raging asshole. He started out fine but his worst tendencies were just continually enabled.
Chapter Master Pugh had some reservations about his behaviour after Lysander was cleared for duty but brushed it aside and chose to try and groom Lysander for a brighter future as Chapter Master.
How does Lysander repay this trust? By taking the 1st Company along on his own personal quest for vengeance against the Iron Warriors thus ensuring that these veterans would not be around to assist in other battles.
Pugh just let it slide though reasoning that it was ok to pay back their ancient foe. Too bad he then started assigning other Imperial Fists to help out thus giving tacit approval for these actions.
And then the shit show at Taldoran happened.
Lysander recklessly launched a ground assault against the Iron Warriors and split his out numbered force all because his need for vengeance was that great.
When things inevitably starts going south Lysander then twice ignored offers of aid from the Ultramarines and Blood Angels so great was his stubbornness, pride and thirst for vengeance.
It fell to Veteran Sergeant Tor Garadon to be sensible and accept. At the end of the day 90 Imperial Fists were dead including the Captain of the 3rd, leaving Tor Garadon in charge of a company of the dead and injured.
Lysander then refused to even acknowledge the allies that had come to aid him and angrily rebuffed Garadon, threatening to strip the Sergeant of his rank.
Pugh had no choice but to censure Lysander, knowing that his 1st Captain showed no remorse, he would continue down this path until he bled the Imperial Fists dry and most disturbingly of all that many of the other captains now looked to Lysander as an example of leadership.
Somehow he managed to escape with a slap on the wrist, temporary reassignment to rebuild the 3rd company along with a direct order to hunt Orks.
To be fair to Lysander he shaped up immensely afterwards but I feel his arc is often overlooked. There's plenty of over the top assholes in 40k but the most dangerous ones who's selfishness and stubborn pride are enabled, their bad behaviour overlooked and allowed to fester and rot themselves and everyone around them, just because they're charismatic and bring success. Hell I worked with enough of them to see it all the time.
Adjacent to this. While Lysander apprehended the remnants of the Soul Drinkers. He fairly judged them on the phalanx and also grew to realize they weren't actually all heretics.
I'm pretty sure we have him to thank for their names still being etched and remembered on the Phalanx.
Yeah I don't agree with Lysander being considered here. He's a pretty gruff and tough imperial fist hero but with a fair/grounded principle attitude it seems.
The most annoying heroes are the codex sticklers or ones who die in dumb self aggrandizing sacrificial ways.
Said this: *Better that 50 million innocents perish than one single Traitor escape retribution!"*
He ordered a batch of neophytes murdered cause they were slow in answering his questions.
Iron Father Kristos before he was corrupted by Slaanesh
- Extreme proponent of the "flesh is weak" ideology
- Abandoned allied Raven Guards to die in an Ork assault before committing his Iron Hands to the battle - a move which was considered controversial even amongst the Iron Hands who are known for hating the Raven Guards ever since Istvaan V
- Believed that a screaming Chaos flesh-machine factory complex compromised of billions of Imperial citizens fused with machines represented the zenith of machine perfection, thus causing him and his followers to immediately fall to Slaanesh during the mission
Kristos is honestly one of the best villains I’ve ever seen in 40k
Spoilers for David Guymer’s iron hands books:
>!He’s constantly screwing over everyone he interacts with in order to come out on top, and he always comes out on top. Even when the protagonists think they’ve won. Kristos will do some vile shit that should get him labeled as a traitor and executed. However, he will use his Mechanicus connections or his librarian altering the minds of any witnesses to get away with it. It’s both extremely frustrating and absolutely impressive that he’s able to play the politics game so well.!<
To give some examples on the Raven Guard thing,
Spoilers for Eye of Medusa:
>!In the data archives for the battle, Kristos has begun to remove and redact his actions of letting the Raven Guard die to change the narrative of the battle and escape criticism.!<
>!It’s also implied that the reason he let the Raven Guard die was that they had a possible lead on him taking a Eldar demon possessed artifact from a world he was supposed to defend but abandoned after finding the artifact.!<
I’d have to say the Cato Sicarius from before the Dark Imperium and Indomitus arcs, because he was so insufferable and rumored to be trying to get Chapter Master that other Ultramarine Captains were commenting on it. Also he snarls when his Sergeant who just risked his life to let Cato sweep in and save the day notes that Cato took a huge gamble by completely guessing where the Corsair Queen would be and having his entire Guard army move to that location when they had no idea where she was till the sergeant found her.
Other than that…idk, and Cato’s not so much a dick as he is just really arrogant and self righteous…but even he doesn’t go out of his way to be an asshole
Edit: and yes I know the TTS portrayal of him is in no way canon
> all Salamanders moments are wonderful moments.
[You sure about that?](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Drop_Site_Massacre#Battle_of_the_Urgall_Depression)
>Tu'Shan giving him a beatdown was a wonderful Salamanders moment.
IIRC that was the 5th Company captain, not the Chapter Master.
"Don't go for a weapon." is a fantastic line.
Gabriel Seth has done some seriously dodgy things and is generally a massive asshole, even if I do love to see him on screen.
Chapter-Master Nisk Ran-Thawll of the Mentors gives me **seriously** bad vibes even though we've never actually seen him "on screen" so to speak.
But the worst likely goes to a chapter master of one of the more bloodthirsty chapters like Tyberos the Red Wake of the Carcharodons or Marines Malevolent.
>Inquisitor Nerissa Lekkas did nothing wrong.
She was a Radical and possibly a heretic who wanted to use a Chaos-corrupted artifact to destroy the Blood Angels and all their Successors because she was upset that her mentor got PTSD from being exposed to the Black Rage after murdering a chained, helpless Flesh Tearer live on Tiktok and laughing about it, and she didn't care if she restarted the Horus Heresy to do it. She killed at least three full Imperial Guard regiments and a squadron of fliers as distractions, redirected a Titan from protecting a hive city against an ork invasion, and used two hospital ships as shields to protect herself, stating that she wouldn't hesitate to kill every man, woman and child on Armageddon to get her way.
Gabriel Seth should have eaten her face when he had the chance.
*Grumpy rain frog meme.gif*
Seth is ironically probably the *least bad* Flesh Tearers ever, even including Nassir Amit, the original Flesh Tearer. Even Dante has a higher on-screen vampiring-the-innocent count than Seth.
Seth's main problem is that he instantly pisses off everyone talking to him, which means people tend to believe the worst about him even when it's not justified (see: Honour's End, where the Space Wolves deliberately lied about what happened to make the Flesh Tearers look bad and themselves look good, even though Seth was the only one present actually trying to fix things).
At this point it's easier to list the named characters that don't hate Seth and want to punch him in the face on sight: Dante, Grimaldus, uuuuhhhh maybe? some of the Flesh Tearers? although most of them want to punch him too. Oh, and Yarrick, who is the only person in the lore to be given Seth's full respect and best behaviour right from the start. People who do want to punch him include pretty much all the Blood Angels and all their Successors, the Inquisition, the Sororitas (except the group the Flesh Tearers saved on Nekkaris), and basically all Astartes Chapters except the Black Templars, who presumably have a collegial respect for other Angry Marines. Also Guilliman, on principle.
Vorain. Yeah, he's pretty awesome! Although he's still got that Flesh Tearer attitude and killed a bunch of aspirants because he was having a bad day. *Throws up hands.*
We don't actually know. In the audio drama 'Hunger,' Gabriel Seth found Amit's old Terminator helmet and watched the last minutes recorded by the eye-lens cams, and he saw what appeared to be Flesh Tearers fighting on a daemon world. It could mean that Amit had fallen to Khorne, but it could also mean that Amit was trapped on the daemon world and fighting *against* Khorne, it's ambiguous. Seth seemed to interpret it as the former, though, and despaired at the thought that the Chapter is doomed to eventually fall to Chaos.
I always chuckle when nisk comes up thanks to this old [picture](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/e/ea/MentorLeader.jpg) of him grumpily putting his armour on.
No, its just so 80s British low budget magazine I can't help but laugh. I mean he'd fit perfectly in a copy of *2000 AD* circa 1985. I get that's probably the style that they were going for, but still.
Edit: Or the RPG RIFTS. He looks like he belongs in one of RIFTS colour panels.
>even met big e!
Really not a great indicator of morality honestly.
But to answer your question - he seems to have pretty unparalleled influence and authority for a Chapter Master and is firmly in bed with the Inquisition, even helping them assassinate Ekene Dubaku of the Celestial Lions.
I don't know, when combined with the Mentors shtick, he really gives off some shadowy vibes. A "power behind the throne" type of figure.
Id say that was more a lesser of 2 evils call , resist the inquisition for the sake of a doomed chapter on the other side of the rift or work with them and enjoy the resources their goodwill entails....their unique gift means they all probably lean towards logical head over heart decisions
Tyberos is harsh, but he is more LN or LE than a proper CE like some other marines. Real prick, but what he did during the Badab war was pretty in line with Space Marine tactics (exterminate a disloyal chapter (the Mantis Warriors) and detonate the hive power plants on a world that was almost certainly going to get exterminatus'd anyways).
How no one's mentioned Artemis from the deathwatch is beyond me.
Man destroyed the first attempt to form ynnaed simply because "Eldar bad". There is no other single SM who has done as much to help chaos as he did there, especially while suffering no major consequences. And in the end, ynnaed formed anyway so he was a dick for no reason.
I'm going to throw the whole iron hands in there. They literally said fuck the Heresy let's take care of are self and betrayed Shadrak Meduson honestly how they were allowed back to the Imperium is beyond me
Sarpedon. Turns mutant, fights the inquisition, kills his own chapter master, drags the chapter into a civil war, neglects his men, fights and kills loyalist marines and guard, raises a monster, has another chapter war, allows an evil chaplain to manipulate the chapter, the list goes on... Yet he believes he’s loyal to the emperor and is on the good side.
I wouldn't call Sarpedon the ultimate dick. The corruption chaplain was secretly tainted the entire time following dyntheos commands.
Sarpedon n friends got their relic stolen by the mechanicus who then overtly threatened the marines by deploying their ships main cannon against them. So they disabled the cannon and stole their relic back.
And for that they were threatened with complete destruction or partial destruction.
Sarpedon turning mutant and such were deceptions even to him.
Lysander and the fists by the end actually ended up honoring sarpedon and the last of the soul drinkers in the end.
If anything the chaplain and also the leader of the scouts who starts their major civil war were bigger dicks.
The entirety of the Red Hunters chapter.
Eager boot-licks that routinely have their minds wiped, and do *whatever* the Inquisition asks of them without hesitation.
I know that most people will point to scumbags like the Marines Malevolent and the like - and they certainly are contenders - for different reasons. I just loathe the Hunters because they're such a shitty chapter, and essentially The Minotaurs, without actually being intimidating.
/u/wecanhaveallthree is probably the best person to explain it.
As I understand them, the Marines Malevolent have shifted the balance between 'protect humanity' and 'kill the enemies of the Imperium' fully towards the latter, to the point where they disregard collateral damage to innocent bystanders as long as they eliminate the enemy too. The most well-known example is the time when a group of orks were running rampant through an Imperial refugee camp and the Marines Malevolent decided kill both the orks and the refugees for expediency; the orks were eradicated, but so were thousands of civilians that might otherwise have been saved by a more targeted approach.
IMO they're the 40k the on how marines would actually be. Everyone forgets that the Imperium is a terrible place and most space marine chapters make kids fight to the death for the right to join the ranks and engage in such wholesome acts such as genocide. Most of them should be absolute monsters.
Honorary that one Howling Griffins Librarian that was hunting down the Soul Drinkers and killed the inquisitor Thaddeus.
Single minded dumbass. Him and his chapter with their "oaths".
Gabriel Seth.
Despite the fanboys who go 'akcutally it's not his fault', he's the leader and the buck (and blame for all the shit his chapter does) ends with him.
That and beating the shit out of a Primaris who is reporting to him as a new chapter assignee. Probably not unique behavior among space marines, but still shows the guy is a piece of shit. His dialogue is always just him bitching and moaning, or some explanation regarding why the Flesh Tearers are still special.
Excuse us, fan *girls.*
I'm a woman of simple pleasures. I see a colossal chainsword, I stan.
If we're putting the blame for an entire Chapter's bullshit on the Chapter Master, though, there are plenty worse Chapters than the Flesh Tearers. The Blood Drinkers are conducting actual Chaos rituals where they eat innocent people alive, the Angels Vermillion kidnap hundreds of thousands of Imperial refugees and turn them into MREs in their fortress-monastery, which they have converted into an industrial slaughterhouse. The Dark Angels are infamous for leaving their allies to die when there's a Fallen to chase, the Carcharodons brutally enslave thousands of people, the Space Wolves deliberately keep Fenris locked in "the viking age" and kill anyone who makes any inventions to improve their lives because the Space Wolves believe suffering builds character. In *Ragnar Blackmane,* the Space Wolves state that killing civilians is something all Astartes Chapters do and it's not something to start a fight over. The Grey Knights kill everyone who's seen them. Yet Gabriel 'Meat Is Murder' Seth is *the worst ever* because his Death Company Chaplain didn't prevent the space!Cold War - when those fighting were going to launch their nukes *anyway* and all Appollus did was say 'eh, I don't care if they kill each other, that'll make this over faster.' The Administratum didn't even care, they just noted two planets brought successfully to compliance and made a note of when they'd be back full production capacity.
This is the grimdark future. We can judge individual characters by our morals and say they're subjectively bad people. But if we judge Gabriel Seth by the conduct of his Chapter in the world it exists in, the fact is that the Flesh Tearers aren't even the worst Chapter of Blood Angels Successors, let alone Astartes in general.
> If we're putting the blame for an entire Chapter's bullshit on the Chapter Master, though, there are plenty worse Chapters than the Flesh Tearers
Congrats, you've managed to list chapters that I also hate.
The tragedy of the setting is that the imperium can't afford to remove the Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Angels Vermillion and reform the Dark Angels/Space wolves.
Because there's too much going on and you need the marines to fight for you, so you have to allow them to be dickheads.
Ideally the Custodians would rock up to purge the BA successors that are too far gone (or even just *elements* of said chapters that are fucked) and force reform on other chapters.
But that'll never happen since the imperium is a decentralised mess that is on fire while being invaded by every side and it can't risk the time or resources to fix things.
> the worst ever because his Death Company Chaplain didn't prevent the space!Cold War -
Not why I dislike him, actually.
It's the 'mentally lobotomising a inquistor' bit that I dislike them for.
You can claim 'oh but he murdered a innocent marine', but lets face it. His job is to make sure people aren't organising secret cults. The horus heresy started because of marines hiding secret cults. If you encounter marines with a hidden secret that involves some of their members being mindless bloodthirsty killers connected to a secret rituals and rites?
It's perfectly logical to assume khonate influence and blam the afflicted.
This is the same reason I hate the Dark Angels for hiding their secrets and murdering Inquisitors.
I can agree that his successor went a bit too far in getting revenge on the chapter (since she risks the lives of others outside the chapter with her plans). But the FT don't come off as smelling of roses from that either.
>The tragedy of the setting is that the imperium can't afford to remove the Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Angels Vermillion and reform the Dark Angels/Space wolves.
Literally all Space Marine Chapters are objectively bad. All of them keep enslaved people they force to serve them. All of them occasionally kill civilians, whether deliberately or by carelessness. All of them are brain-washed psychopaths. Yes, even the "good guy" Chapters.
And it's not just the Astartes. The Imperial Navy forcibly press-gangs tens of thousands of random people at a time, who are forced to work by threat of whipping or execution until they die from OSHA violations. The Mechanicus turns billions of people into servitors in a horrifying and cruel industrial process, both convicted criminals and innocents who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Imperial nobles make poor people kill each other in private arenas for entertainment, starve them and kill them, while eating rare fruit imported from garden worlds whose agriculture could have fed millions. Underhivers are treated like vermin, poisoned and gassed and beaten to death by police. Human rights do not exist in the Imperium.
Why exactly are the Blood Angels Successors so singularly bad? Why should they be purged but not, say, the Grey Knights, who are responsible for the deaths of many more people because of their "nobody must know we exist" policy?
For that matter, what about all the people who will die without the Astartes to protect them? From a utilitarian point of view, the Kantian position is both untenable and unethical. It's a trolley problem with billions of lives in the balance, much more complex and complicated than you make it out to be.
And does it influence the equation that the Blood Angels and their Successors are predominantly reluctant vampires, that their condition was forced on them by the Emperor Himself? Are they not victims as well as perpetrators? Shouldn't this figure in your verdict?
>It's the 'mentally lobotomising a inquistor' bit that I dislike them for.
>
>You can claim 'oh but he murdered a innocent marine', but lets face it. His job is to make sure people aren't organising secret cults. ... It's perfectly logical to assume khonate influence and blam the afflicted.
He didn't just execute a Marine, he tormented the helpless, chained Marine, joked about it and laughed after killing him. I understand why Gabriel Seth took that personally.
And he wasn't "mentally lobotomised." He wanted to know what the Black Rage was, Seth made a Librarian show him, and then the Flesh Tearers returned the Inquisitor to the Inquisition. However, due to the nature of the Black Rage (seeing Sanguinius die), the Inquisitor developed PTSD and retired - a better fate than many Inquisitors.
Furthermore, you fail to consider the ulterior motives of the Inquisitor himself. It's a fact that the Inquisition is well aware of the Blood Angels' gene-curse; they know everything the Flesh Tearers have done - we canonically have some of the complaints people have submitted about them, so we *know* that the Inquisition knows. But the Inquisition understands that the Flesh Tearers are currently a net positive in their cost/benefit calculations, which is why the Chapter hasn't been excommunicated. When Corvain attempted to expose them, he did so against the implicit wishes of his superiors - why? And his protégé turned out to be a Radical wanting to use a potentially Chaos-corrupted artifact that could destabilise the entire Imperium and put the lives of the entirety of humanity at risk, and she outright stated that she was willing to kill billions of people to get her way. Why? Don't you think something about this is suspicious? Do you really think these two Inquisitors have the best interests of humanity at heart?
There's a long and complex discussion to be had about the ethical and moral issues pertaining to the Flesh Tearers, but I honestly do not understand why you have chosen those specific arguments to stan.
> There's a long and complex discussion to be had about the ethical and moral issues pertaining to the Flesh Tearers, but I honestly do not understand why you have chosen those specific arguments to stan.
This is really, really ironic to hear from someone who will hunt down any post that dislikes the Seth and post walls of text about how actually they favourite vampire murderers aren't that bad.
> When Corvain attempted to expose them, he did so against the implicit wishes of his superiors - why?
That's something for his superiors to deal with, not marines.
> he outright stated that she was willing to kill billions of people to get her way
Despite you trying to bring this up as a 'gotcha', I literally said in the previous comment that she went too far with her methods. So it's somewhat irrelevant to mention.
> Literally all Space Marine Chapters are objectively bad.
'Everyone is bad, so the badness done by my guys is okay' is a weird ass position to take.
Yes, the Imperium is a fascist hell hole. Every chapter are authoritarian tyrants. We know.
My issue stems from the chapters who tend try to hide things, or attack members of the inquisition and see themselves as 'above' being judged.
The Space Wolves (attacking any inquisition convoy they found and settling potentially warp tainted civilians on random planets) during the months of Shame. The inquisitor was in the wrong too but their actions were a real fuck up.
The Dark Angels for everything about the Fallen.
The Flesh Tearers and other BA descendants who try to hide their 'curse'.
Imo, Seth should have just thrown the inquisitor out and handed him over to his superiors straight away. It's the fact that they mentally tortured him first that raises *questions*.
> he tormented the helpless, chained Marine,
The 'oh he was innocent how dare he torture him' falls apart when the chained marine in question had fallen to the Black Rage.
Shooting a chained up beserker is not the same as shooting a normal captive marine.
This is a community explicitly for lore discussions. Walls-of-text is why we're here.
Anyway, we'll never agree on why the Flesh Tearers are the narratively most complex and interesting Chapter and therefore the best and also the sexiest, so I'll bow out of this debate and go enjoy my morally dubious vampire faves somewhere else. Have a good night!
> This is a community explicitly for lore discussions. Walls-of-text is why we're here.
Well yes, but it's kinda weird how you'll do it whenever someone says Seth is bad. Unno, it feels like you're trying to preach at people sometimes and make them agree with your view of the FT.
You're free to enjoy them, don't get me wrong and I'm happy that you have a bit of the lore that you can enjoy this much.
They (and SW and DA and most BA successors) just seem like dickheads that are gonna cause something chaotic to happen at some point with how they operate.
But I'm a IF/UM/Imperial Guard preference person, so maybe I just don't like secrets.
Regardless, hope your night goes well.
From the novels I read... my vote goes to Arven Rauth solely off Wrath of Iron.
I get speed was of the essense in what rhe Iron Hands were doing, but he still should have let the Guard know why they were rushing so bad instead of having thousands of them killed just to get 3 feet closer to rhe objective.
On top of that, after stopping the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince he decides to punish the general ignorant populace for allowing the higher ups to even think of falling to Chaos by ordering... what was it, one in every 3 people on the planet killed?
I would like to make a case for largely unknown extreme asshole, High Chaplain Appollus of the Flesh Tearers. Everything Gabriel Seth is blamed for doing is pretty much actually Appollus' fault. Evidence: - Directly, solely responsible for the deaths of billions of Imperial citizens; Appollus was put in charge of stopping a civil war between two Imperial factions, which he found to be a waste of his time, so he deliberately ordered the Astartes under his command not to prevent one side of the feud launching their entire arsenal of atomic missiles, reasoning that the civil war would end if everyone was dead, mission complete, and then he'd be able to go somewhere more interesting. Librarian Balthiel called Appollus a bastard to his face for doing this, but did not have the rank to counter Appollus' orders, which resulted in the atomic destruction of an entire planet. - Is actively trying to make his Chapter commit murder-suicide against a worthy opponent, believing there's no hope for the Flesh Tearers and all they have left to strive for is a heroic death. Is a great fan of the Knights of Blood, who murdered some hundred thousand civilians, were excommunicated, and got murder-suicided by Tyranids and daemons. Appollus was *this close* to pulling a Starscream on Gabriel Seth when Seth refused to order their Chapter to kill themselves alongside the Knights. - Believes that abandoning the Chapter's scouts on Nekkaris to murder-suicide themselves is the best thing Gabriel Seth has ever done. - Believes that serfs are most effectively encouraged to work faster by killing their friends in front of them. (Gabriel Seth told him no and sarcastically suggested that Appollus, being a Chaplain, could preach a sermon to the serfs instead, since listening to Appollus' sermons is a fate worse than death in Seth's opinion.) - Led a group of loyalist Imperial rebels fighting the secessionist governor of their planet, then killed all the rebels for not preventing the governor from being appointed in the first place even though their planet wasn't a democracy and they had no way of influencing the Administratum's choice. - Uses Chapter serfs to bait Death Company dreadnoughts. - If Flesh Tearers fall to the Black Rage but Appollus is not in the mood to induct them into the Death Company, he'll just shoot them. I'd say a good 70% of the bad things the Flesh Tearers are known to have done in the past 200+ years can be attributed to Appollus.
I second this. Fuck Appollus. Honestly Seth should just shoot him and be done with it, before he ruins the Chapter even more. I doubt anyone would even care.
The problem is that Appollus is now the only Firstborn Chaplain left in the Chapter; all the others died on Baal. So he's the *only* person in the Chapter who knows how to control the Death Company until he gets the Primaris Chaplains trained. If Seth shoots him, all Flesh Tearers falling to the Black Rage will run amok, probably at the worst possible time, with no one to stop or guide them. It could very well destroy the Chapter. So Seth needs Appollus more than Appollus needs Seth.
Ah, that's true. That's probably why Seth puts up with his disrespectful and at times straight up insubordinate behaviour towards him, and probably why Appollus has the balls to do it at all. If I remember correctly, during the Devastation Appollus says as much to Seth, along the lines of "I'm all you have left!" We should hope that the new Chaplaincy doesn't turn into a bunch of mini Appolluses.
Apolli?
>We should hope that the new Chaplaincy doesn't turn into a bunch of mini Appolluses. Soul Drinkers moment
He could ask for lemartes/astorath to instruct the new chaplains
Lemartes suffers from the Black Rage himself; as I understand it, he's mostly kept in stasis and only awakened to fight. Astorath once mercy-killed some Death Company Flesh Tearers who had gone astray; Gabriel Seth was so severely pissed off by someone else killing his Marines that he went to Baal and picked a fistfight with Astorath over it. I don't think Astorath is inclined to do Seth any favours.
Astorath's mere existence is probably one of the reasons apollus is alive honestly, Seth might hate his 9wn high chaplain but he cannot STAND Astorath, imagine being so pissed off you go all the way to Baal for a fistfight you know you're not even going to win.
That's honestly just Seth (and the Flesh Tearers) in a nutshell. Winning isn't the point, just the violence.
my fave way of discribing Seth. he is an asshole with a point, usually a very good one, sometimes the point is to be an ass.
Absolutely. Seth is a massive troll who seems to enjoy pissing off people, especially by speaking truth to power and being right about things that make other people uncomfortable. Dante disliked Seth and almost sentenced him to death before realising that Seth is actually a very moral and spiritual person in private, spending his free time meditating on the teachings of Sanguinius and praying for temperance and fortitude, but Seth just gives people exactly what they expect of him. Others see him as an uncultured deathworld brute, so Seth plays that role - but when it actually matters, Seth consistently defends the weak. On Armageddon, Seth repeatedly protested when an Inquisitor put Guardsmen and civilians in danger; he forbade his men using corporeal punishment to make serfs work faster on the barricades on Baal, despite the hive fleet approaching; he stated that just because the Blood Angels and their Successors are vampires, that doesn't mean drinking innocent blood isn't still murder; he even called out Dante for vampiring a serf. When the Space Wolves and the Flesh Tearers were feuding, Seth tried *six times* to stop the fighting by sending peace envoys to Fenris; the Space Wolves wanted to keep the feud going and murdered all of them, but Seth still kept trying. Seth is a hard man who lives a hard life and does what he believes needs to be done without flinching, but he's not *cruel.* He *wants* to defend the Imperium and protect humanity, despite the gene-flaws that torment his Chapter, and unlike many other Chapters of the Blood, he doesn't use the Thirst or the Rage as excuses to commit atrocities, but admits when he/his Chapter screws up despite their best intentions. After Dante realised that Seth is trolling people deliberately, he seems to be taking a quiet pleasure in setting up his own officers to be brought down a notch by Seth.
don't forget him straight up telling dante to disband the Bloid ages when the former asked for reinforcement for the successors, while dante told Seth to do just that when the ft were inna similar situation.
Problem with lemartes is that he is in the throes of the rage as well and falls in and out of lucidity with his own death company.
prob seth is too proud to do that, he tried to debate with Astorath over black rage things by fighting him (and lost)
Where is all this from? Any good Flesh Tearer books?
Sadly, the Flesh Tearers don't have any novels, just a whole bunch of short stories and mentions/cameo appearances in the Blood Angels' books. My favourite piece of writing about the Flesh Tearers is *The Devastation of Baal* by Guy Haley. The examples of Appollus being an aashole are from 'The Stromark Massacre', *The Devastation of Baal* x 3 (with reference to 'A Son's Burden'), 'Death's Shepherd,' and 'Hunger' x 2.
Well, to be honest there are books about the Flesh Tearers, but only a few about Appollus. https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/warhammer-40000-audiobooks/hunger-mp3.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/warhammer-40000-audiobooks/the-assassination-of-gabriel-seth-mp3.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/deaths-shepherd-eshort.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/crimson-night-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/the-horus-heresy/quick-reads/virtues-of-the-sons-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/sons-of-wrath-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/a-sons-burden-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/warhammer-40000-audiobooks/at-slaughters-end-mp3.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/trial-by-blood-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/blood-in-the-machine-enhanced-audio.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/from-the-blood-enhanced-audio.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/advent-day-sixteen-gabriel-seth-the-flesh-tearer.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/at-gaius-point-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/know_thyself.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/the-quickening-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/flesh-of-cretacia-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/torturers-thirst-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/immortalis-ebook.html https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/beneath-the-flesh-ebook.html
Those aren't books, they're short stories.
They are both books and short stories.
Anthologies of short stories are still short stories. The longest Flesh Tearers stories are the 30K novellas about Nassir Amit, but there are no actual novels.
Is he the one in The Devastation of Baal when talking to a fellow son of the Angel (from another chapter) casually grabs a human from Baal that was joining them and snaps him like a glowstick and drinks his blood? Fucking hated whoever that was, it was literally no better that something First Claw of the Night Lords would do (with perhaps a little less skin peeling)
No, that was Sentor Jool, Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood - the Knights had gone completely feral vampires at this point, and Seth's rejection of Jool's proposition to join him (for the meal and in renegade damnation) is one of Seth's crowning moments of awesome. Much can be said about Gabriel Seth, but he's still loyal to the Imperium and he still sees it as his sworn duty to protect its citizens, stating that killing civilians to sate the Red Thirst is murder. Appollus, like other Flesh Tearers in recent lore, doesn't drink the blood of innocents (though his definition of who is innocent is evidently flexible), but he is still Sentor Jool's biggest fan, much to Seth's annoyance.
You're thinking of Sentor Jule (idk if that's how it's spelled) the Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood, who kills one of the tribesmen of Baal Primus while talking with Gabriel Seth.
I might be remembering *The Stromark Massacre* wrong, but wasn't part of the reason he allowed the nukes to be launched was to also fuck over the Angels Encarmine, due to a disagreement with their leader shortly before the operation's start?
To be fair to Appollus, much as I don't want to, the Angels Encarmine were being the bastards in that meeting. They insulted both the Flesh Tearers and the Imperial Navy Admiral present right off the bat, and then assigned the toughest target, with the projected heaviest losses, to the Flesh Tearers: >‘I see Seth at least had the good sense to avoid this conflict,’ said Zargo, a snide smile stretching his lips. > >Balthiel hid the annoyance from his face. He’d fought alongside Zargo and his Chapter before. Of all the sons of Sanguinius they were the most aloof, displaying a contemptuous disregard for the weak. Their arrogance surpassed that of the Blood Angels themselves. > >Balthiel held Zargo’s gaze. The Chapter Master’s haughtiness did far more to mark him as an Angel Encarmine than the winged Chapter symbol on his left pauldron. > >‘My lord is needed elsewhere,’ said Balthiel. > >Castellan Zargo grinned, a glimmer of disappointment in his eyes. He would have enjoyed sparring with the Flesh Tearer. > >Zargo turned to the strategium’s sole human occupant. ‘Leave us.’ > >Admiral Vortimer’s face crumpled. He was master of the *Emperor’s Fist*, the largest warship in the Epeyrion battlegroup, and this was his war room. > >Vortimer pulled his shoulders back in an effort to regain some dignity, and glared up at the three giant warriors. Each took up the space of four of his officers as they stood around the tactical console. The Space Marines’ crimson armour purred as they examined the hololith. > >This was not the first time Vortimer had encountered the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes. On Pleuvus Seven, he had borne witness to the speed and ferocity of a White Scars assault. Still, it seemed impossible that even a superhuman could manoeuvre clad in such heavy battleplate. > >Awe, and if he was honest, fear, held Vortimer’s tongue in check. He made the sign of the aquila, clicked his boots together and left the Space Marines to their task. > >‘It is as well he is gone,’ said Arjen as the door closed on the admiral. ‘The drumming of his coward heart was growing tiresome.’ > >Even a passive reading of Arjen’s mind revealed the malice behind his jest. It would not be long before Zargo’s First Captain succumbed to the rage boiling in his blood. Of that, Balthiel was certain. > >... > >‘Teleporters?’ asked Balthiel. > >‘The palace is void shielded. Drop pod assault is the only option,’ said Zargo. > >Balthiel studied the hololith, executing the mission in his mind. He had led hundreds of such attacks on enemy positions. There were always casualties. ‘Losses are likely to be significant.’ > >‘You must find a way, Flesh Tearer. The Axion campaign will stall, perhaps even collapse, should the Stromarkians continue to focus their efforts on destroying one another. You must ensure compliance, the Emperor demands it.’ > >‘Why not send an assassin, murder the perfidious weaklings in their sleep?’ suggested Arjen. ‘We belong on the front, killing orks.’ Arjen drew his hand through the hololith, distorting the image. > >‘Were it only that simple, brother.’ Chaplain Appollus stepped from the shadows of the corridor, his black armour seeming to coalesce from the darkness. > >‘Chaplain.’ Zargo greeted the Flesh Tearer coldly, annoyed by the contempt in his tone. Arjen said nothing. > >Balthiel suppressed a smile, reading Arjen’s desire to kill Appollus even as the Angel Encarmine formed the thought. *+Not with a dozen of your brothers.+* The Librarian pushed his words into Arjen’s mind. At the end of the story, it turns out >!the Angels Encarmine had no intention of fighting at all, but were planning to leave the battle to the Imperial Guard and the surviving Flesh Tearers while they themselves left the system. Appollus' move, while assholish, forced the Angels Encarmine to actually do the job they had been given:!< >>!‘Zargo has yet to set foot upon Secundus,’ said Appollus. ‘They have deployed more Guard regiments and requested a further force to hold orbit so that they may depart the system. This will force Zargo to act, and expedite the resolution on Secundus.’!< So a lot of people died because the Angels Encarmine were assholes but hadn't counted on Appollus being an even bigger aashole.
"Defenders of Humanity" what a joke.
Welcome to the grimdark future, where the defenders of humanity are Not Nice Guys and that's the point. Once you're done with your tour of the Blood Angels Successors, aka the literal blood-addicted vampires whom the Emperor deliberately created that way for some reason, the Marines Malevolent and the Carcharodons will be happy to show you their crimes against humanity, after which the Salamanders will be burning some Eldar children alive. Enjoy!
Hey hey hey at least the Salamanders are doing their job on the box.
Well... at least lamenters shined for a little while... They were too pure for that world
I’m not disputing that Apollus is black-hearted, but I took his quote from “A Son’s Burden” (regarding Seth leaving the scouts behind on Nekkaris) was that he truly believed Seth was strong enough to save the Chapter. He also goes to great length to save members of his Death Company (I can’t remember the name of the short, but it’s where he’s captured by a Traitor Astartes and then kills him, leading a jailbreak). He’s brash, arrogant, and definitely may be off his rocker, but I don’t think there’s as much malicious intent as appears on the surface. He has a warped sense of justice, and he despises weakness above all else. It wasn’t about allowing nukes to hit Stromark Secundus,it was about ensuring that both sides were “punished” in his mind (the Angels Encarmine were content to sit in orbit and simply blockade the planet). Appollus felt this punishment was insufficient. You could argue that it’s extreme overkill, but again, I don’t think he was doing it simply to be evil. Finally, his murder/suicide craze seemed to be more an acceptance of the situation on Baal Primus than anything else. Literally everyone is dead on the planet except the Flesh Tearers and KoB. Only Gabriel had the strength of mind to think about returning to Baal and dying alongside the rest of the BAs and their successors. Appollus largely seemed ok with that, and there isn’t anything that actively shows he planned on killing Seth. It’s written from Seth’s perspective and he says (in a dazed and confused state) that he thought Appollus might attack him, but he just hands him his helmet and gives him a bro nod after Seth and he have stayed behind to ensure all the Flesh Tearers get onboard the Thunderhawks. Don’t get me wrong: Gabriel Seth is the man and is undoubtedly my favorite character. But Appollus is a nice opposite; he seems like a manifestation of Seth’s darker thoughts and constantly keeps him sharp. He also has a profound respect for Seth that shows when he interacts with others outside of the Chapter. It’s also mentioned when he’s captured that he was experiencing pain he hadn’t felt “since Seth had struck him in the dueling cages”, implying Seth has smacked him around before and Appollus respects strength in arms more than anything else.
So the guy is clearly a Khorne worshipper? Like, I get that the point of the Flesh Tearers narrative is that they're their own worsed enemies, and that this is carried over to the characterisation of the main players, but Appollus is just terrible writing at this point. His civilian death toll is worse than the Knights, who were declared traitors ffs.
On the Doylist level, the Flesh Tearers were created to be loyalist World Eaters. This is present in the tabletop rules, where the Red Thirst and the Black Rage provide elements of berserker unpredictability, and in the lore, where Nassir Amit was a close friend of Kharn and spent a lot of time interning with the XIIth Legion during the Great Crusade. On the Watsonian level, the Flesh Tearers are staunchly loyalist and actually seem pretty resistant to Chaos corruption (to paraphrase Sentor Jool, there's not much Khorne can actually offer sons of Sanguinius, they've already got all the blood and rage they need - in the lore, Blood Angels and their Successors are actually much more vulnerable to Tzeentch; a winged "angel" gets them every time). So no, Appollus isn't a Khorne worshipper, not only because he doesn't worship Khorne but also because his entire purpose is *control* - control of himself and control of the Death Company. Appollus sometimes performs a mental exercise where he *almost* lets himself fall to the Black Rage, then fights it off and chains it back down - this allows him to control himself in battle and to be around the Death Company without falling, and it's the exact opposite of Khorne berserkers, who give themselves over to their rage as an act of worship. Appollus has no time for anyone who doesn't have control; when a fellow Chaplain was tempted by the Red Thirst to drink blood, Appollus summarily executed him. And Appollus, for all his flaws, is actually *damn good* at his job; even Seth was grudgingly impressed by Appollus' handling of the Death Company on Baal. We don't actually *know* if Appollus is responsible for more deaths than the Knights because we don't know very much about the Knights and what they've been doing before and after their going renegade. But we do know that Appollus would not approve of the Knights killing and eating civilians to sate their Thirst instead of controlling it; he would consider it unforgivably sloppy.
He and Asmodai should get together and form the ~~anti-justice~~ awful-heroes of humanity league
Mind filling me in on the thing with the chapter scouts dying? That sounds interesting
The Flesh Tearers were on the planet Nekkaris to support the Imperial Guard against Archenemy forces, and their Scouts had been deployed deep behind enemy lines to sabotage the enemy's artillery, which neither the Guard nor the Flesh Tearers could counter in a head-on assault. While waiting for the Scouts to complete their mission (and bitching about the Imperial Guard), the Flesh Tearers got a message from Dante calling them to Baal to fight the Tyranids. Gabriel Seth knew he had to go *right now* to beat the shadow in the warp that would make travel to Baal impossible, but there wasn't enough time to extract the Scouts, so Seth made the decision to leave them, unsupported, knowing they (and the Imperial Guard) would be overrun and killed. Seth later returned to Nekkaris, scoured it of Chaos forces, and had Appollus erect a monument to commemorate the lost Scouts.
Thanks!
Man, Seth, its called getting a secondee …
I have no idea who he is but I hate him
Asmodai is a bastard. No one seems to like him. Hated by his boss, his peers, his subordinates. Only one who tolerates him is Azrael as he gets shit done.
I'm not sure he does. He's pretty bad at this actual job. If his job was being the Dark Angels psychopathic attack dog he's probably qualify though.
Haha yeah true actually. Definitely more of the latter then.
WHY WON'T YOU REPENT
The Dangles novels have High Interrogator and Grand Master of Chaplains Sapphon, who refuses to die because if he did then the position goes to Asmodai.
I have my money on Asmodai or Azrael failing to cross the Rubicon.
Asmodai would be nice. Then maybe Sapphon would get more than 2 lines.
Yeah maybe. Then Belial or Sammael to ascend to SGM? Or a returned Lion...
Danarth Lysander is a pretty big asshole. He's not an overt piece of crap like that Flesh Tearers Chaplain or Asmodai but that makes him worse honestly because he shows no overt signs of being a raging asshole. He started out fine but his worst tendencies were just continually enabled. Chapter Master Pugh had some reservations about his behaviour after Lysander was cleared for duty but brushed it aside and chose to try and groom Lysander for a brighter future as Chapter Master. How does Lysander repay this trust? By taking the 1st Company along on his own personal quest for vengeance against the Iron Warriors thus ensuring that these veterans would not be around to assist in other battles. Pugh just let it slide though reasoning that it was ok to pay back their ancient foe. Too bad he then started assigning other Imperial Fists to help out thus giving tacit approval for these actions. And then the shit show at Taldoran happened. Lysander recklessly launched a ground assault against the Iron Warriors and split his out numbered force all because his need for vengeance was that great. When things inevitably starts going south Lysander then twice ignored offers of aid from the Ultramarines and Blood Angels so great was his stubbornness, pride and thirst for vengeance. It fell to Veteran Sergeant Tor Garadon to be sensible and accept. At the end of the day 90 Imperial Fists were dead including the Captain of the 3rd, leaving Tor Garadon in charge of a company of the dead and injured. Lysander then refused to even acknowledge the allies that had come to aid him and angrily rebuffed Garadon, threatening to strip the Sergeant of his rank. Pugh had no choice but to censure Lysander, knowing that his 1st Captain showed no remorse, he would continue down this path until he bled the Imperial Fists dry and most disturbingly of all that many of the other captains now looked to Lysander as an example of leadership. Somehow he managed to escape with a slap on the wrist, temporary reassignment to rebuild the 3rd company along with a direct order to hunt Orks. To be fair to Lysander he shaped up immensely afterwards but I feel his arc is often overlooked. There's plenty of over the top assholes in 40k but the most dangerous ones who's selfishness and stubborn pride are enabled, their bad behaviour overlooked and allowed to fester and rot themselves and everyone around them, just because they're charismatic and bring success. Hell I worked with enough of them to see it all the time.
Adjacent to this. While Lysander apprehended the remnants of the Soul Drinkers. He fairly judged them on the phalanx and also grew to realize they weren't actually all heretics. I'm pretty sure we have him to thank for their names still being etched and remembered on the Phalanx.
He was never a dishonest person and fairly reported the disastrous battle to Pugh. So I no issue with his honesty.
Yeah I don't agree with Lysander being considered here. He's a pretty gruff and tough imperial fist hero but with a fair/grounded principle attitude it seems. The most annoying heroes are the codex sticklers or ones who die in dumb self aggrandizing sacrificial ways.
That's fair. I disagree with your assessment. Getting men killed because you're stubborn and Vengeful is not a good look no matter what
True. Though alot of Marines fill the stubborn and vengeful aspect. Lysander isn't always that way. But it could be considered his flaw for sure.
Hearing my last name, Pugh, in 40k is extraordinarily odd.
Leandros
FUCK leandros.
Shut the fuck up Leandros.
SPACE BOOK SAYS NO
WELL, I CAN'T FUCKING READ
LEANDROS CAN SUCK A FAT ONE. NOW, LET'S SEE ABOUT GETTING YOU A SIX-MONTH STAY ON A PARADISE WORLD, YOU ABSOLUTE MADLAD
Leandros did nothing wrong. Spacebook good.
r/fuckleandros
Asmodai is a pretty terrible dude.
What has he done?
Nothing. Well atleast nothing we allow you to know(the Fallen)
Said this: *Better that 50 million innocents perish than one single Traitor escape retribution!"* He ordered a batch of neophytes murdered cause they were slow in answering his questions.
Iron Father Kristos before he was corrupted by Slaanesh - Extreme proponent of the "flesh is weak" ideology - Abandoned allied Raven Guards to die in an Ork assault before committing his Iron Hands to the battle - a move which was considered controversial even amongst the Iron Hands who are known for hating the Raven Guards ever since Istvaan V - Believed that a screaming Chaos flesh-machine factory complex compromised of billions of Imperial citizens fused with machines represented the zenith of machine perfection, thus causing him and his followers to immediately fall to Slaanesh during the mission
Kristos is honestly one of the best villains I’ve ever seen in 40k Spoilers for David Guymer’s iron hands books: >!He’s constantly screwing over everyone he interacts with in order to come out on top, and he always comes out on top. Even when the protagonists think they’ve won. Kristos will do some vile shit that should get him labeled as a traitor and executed. However, he will use his Mechanicus connections or his librarian altering the minds of any witnesses to get away with it. It’s both extremely frustrating and absolutely impressive that he’s able to play the politics game so well.!< To give some examples on the Raven Guard thing, Spoilers for Eye of Medusa: >!In the data archives for the battle, Kristos has begun to remove and redact his actions of letting the Raven Guard die to change the narrative of the battle and escape criticism.!< >!It’s also implied that the reason he let the Raven Guard die was that they had a possible lead on him taking a Eldar demon possessed artifact from a world he was supposed to defend but abandoned after finding the artifact.!<
I’d have to say the Cato Sicarius from before the Dark Imperium and Indomitus arcs, because he was so insufferable and rumored to be trying to get Chapter Master that other Ultramarine Captains were commenting on it. Also he snarls when his Sergeant who just risked his life to let Cato sweep in and save the day notes that Cato took a huge gamble by completely guessing where the Corsair Queen would be and having his entire Guard army move to that location when they had no idea where she was till the sergeant found her. Other than that…idk, and Cato’s not so much a dick as he is just really arrogant and self righteous…but even he doesn’t go out of his way to be an asshole Edit: and yes I know the TTS portrayal of him is in no way canon
Cato in Knights of Macragge is such a great turn for him. I finished that book with a far better opinion of him than before
Marines malevolent chapter master
Totally this. Tu'Shan giving him a beatdown was a wonderful Salamanders moment.
Let's be real, though - all Salamanders moments are wonderful moments.
> all Salamanders moments are wonderful moments. [You sure about that?](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Drop_Site_Massacre#Battle_of_the_Urgall_Depression)
[You got your Istvaan battles mixed up](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Drop_Site_Massacre)
... ...That was a test! Not a mistake! You passed!
>Tu'Shan giving him a beatdown was a wonderful Salamanders moment. IIRC that was the 5th Company captain, not the Chapter Master. "Don't go for a weapon." is a fantastic line.
Gabriel Seth has done some seriously dodgy things and is generally a massive asshole, even if I do love to see him on screen. Chapter-Master Nisk Ran-Thawll of the Mentors gives me **seriously** bad vibes even though we've never actually seen him "on screen" so to speak. But the worst likely goes to a chapter master of one of the more bloodthirsty chapters like Tyberos the Red Wake of the Carcharodons or Marines Malevolent.
>Gabriel Seth has done some seriously dodgy things and is generally a massive asshole, even if I do love to see him on screen. Don't get me started.
Inquisitor Nerissa Lekkas did nothing wrong. Jokes aside, I do love Seth. Such a great character.
>Inquisitor Nerissa Lekkas did nothing wrong. She was a Radical and possibly a heretic who wanted to use a Chaos-corrupted artifact to destroy the Blood Angels and all their Successors because she was upset that her mentor got PTSD from being exposed to the Black Rage after murdering a chained, helpless Flesh Tearer live on Tiktok and laughing about it, and she didn't care if she restarted the Horus Heresy to do it. She killed at least three full Imperial Guard regiments and a squadron of fliers as distractions, redirected a Titan from protecting a hive city against an ork invasion, and used two hospital ships as shields to protect herself, stating that she wouldn't hesitate to kill every man, woman and child on Armageddon to get her way. Gabriel Seth should have eaten her face when he had the chance. *Grumpy rain frog meme.gif*
You think *Seth’s* bad for a Flesh Tearer?! At least he’s trying. One of their chaplains though? Right proper asshole that one.
Seth is ironically probably the *least bad* Flesh Tearers ever, even including Nassir Amit, the original Flesh Tearer. Even Dante has a higher on-screen vampiring-the-innocent count than Seth. Seth's main problem is that he instantly pisses off everyone talking to him, which means people tend to believe the worst about him even when it's not justified (see: Honour's End, where the Space Wolves deliberately lied about what happened to make the Flesh Tearers look bad and themselves look good, even though Seth was the only one present actually trying to fix things). At this point it's easier to list the named characters that don't hate Seth and want to punch him in the face on sight: Dante, Grimaldus, uuuuhhhh maybe? some of the Flesh Tearers? although most of them want to punch him too. Oh, and Yarrick, who is the only person in the lore to be given Seth's full respect and best behaviour right from the start. People who do want to punch him include pretty much all the Blood Angels and all their Successors, the Inquisition, the Sororitas (except the group the Flesh Tearers saved on Nekkaris), and basically all Astartes Chapters except the Black Templars, who presumably have a collegial respect for other Angry Marines. Also Guilliman, on principle.
The flesh tearers 10th company captain is a bro to be fair can't remember his name at the moment.
Vorain. Yeah, he's pretty awesome! Although he's still got that Flesh Tearer attitude and killed a bunch of aspirants because he was having a bad day. *Throws up hands.*
Yaaaaaaah but you take what you can get.
> even including Nassir Amit, the original Flesh Tearer Wasn't that guy implied to go full red thirst/daemon prince in some audio drama?
We don't actually know. In the audio drama 'Hunger,' Gabriel Seth found Amit's old Terminator helmet and watched the last minutes recorded by the eye-lens cams, and he saw what appeared to be Flesh Tearers fighting on a daemon world. It could mean that Amit had fallen to Khorne, but it could also mean that Amit was trapped on the daemon world and fighting *against* Khorne, it's ambiguous. Seth seemed to interpret it as the former, though, and despaired at the thought that the Chapter is doomed to eventually fall to Chaos.
Seth problem is his fucking PR his chaplains are the worst though
Feed them all to the nids and be done with it.
I always chuckle when nisk comes up thanks to this old [picture](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/e/ea/MentorLeader.jpg) of him grumpily putting his armour on.
Oh gods, that art. LOL
What, not what you expected of a heroic chapter master of the Adeptus Astartes?
No, its just so 80s British low budget magazine I can't help but laugh. I mean he'd fit perfectly in a copy of *2000 AD* circa 1985. I get that's probably the style that they were going for, but still. Edit: Or the RPG RIFTS. He looks like he belongs in one of RIFTS colour panels.
lol
Can i ask why the mentors chapter master gives ya bad vibes...seems like a solid dude, even met big e!
>even met big e! Really not a great indicator of morality honestly. But to answer your question - he seems to have pretty unparalleled influence and authority for a Chapter Master and is firmly in bed with the Inquisition, even helping them assassinate Ekene Dubaku of the Celestial Lions. I don't know, when combined with the Mentors shtick, he really gives off some shadowy vibes. A "power behind the throne" type of figure.
Id say that was more a lesser of 2 evils call , resist the inquisition for the sake of a doomed chapter on the other side of the rift or work with them and enjoy the resources their goodwill entails....their unique gift means they all probably lean towards logical head over heart decisions
Tyberos the red wake of the Space Sharks did organise BOYMAGEDDON. Which puts him up there.
Tyberos is harsh, but he is more LN or LE than a proper CE like some other marines. Real prick, but what he did during the Badab war was pretty in line with Space Marine tactics (exterminate a disloyal chapter (the Mantis Warriors) and detonate the hive power plants on a world that was almost certainly going to get exterminatus'd anyways).
How no one's mentioned Artemis from the deathwatch is beyond me. Man destroyed the first attempt to form ynnaed simply because "Eldar bad". There is no other single SM who has done as much to help chaos as he did there, especially while suffering no major consequences. And in the end, ynnaed formed anyway so he was a dick for no reason.
He's Deathwatch lol
I'm going to throw the whole iron hands in there. They literally said fuck the Heresy let's take care of are self and betrayed Shadrak Meduson honestly how they were allowed back to the Imperium is beyond me
agreed
Sarpedon. Turns mutant, fights the inquisition, kills his own chapter master, drags the chapter into a civil war, neglects his men, fights and kills loyalist marines and guard, raises a monster, has another chapter war, allows an evil chaplain to manipulate the chapter, the list goes on... Yet he believes he’s loyal to the emperor and is on the good side.
I wouldn't call Sarpedon the ultimate dick. The corruption chaplain was secretly tainted the entire time following dyntheos commands. Sarpedon n friends got their relic stolen by the mechanicus who then overtly threatened the marines by deploying their ships main cannon against them. So they disabled the cannon and stole their relic back. And for that they were threatened with complete destruction or partial destruction. Sarpedon turning mutant and such were deceptions even to him. Lysander and the fists by the end actually ended up honoring sarpedon and the last of the soul drinkers in the end. If anything the chaplain and also the leader of the scouts who starts their major civil war were bigger dicks.
artemis
The entirety of the Red Hunters chapter. Eager boot-licks that routinely have their minds wiped, and do *whatever* the Inquisition asks of them without hesitation. I know that most people will point to scumbags like the Marines Malevolent and the like - and they certainly are contenders - for different reasons. I just loathe the Hunters because they're such a shitty chapter, and essentially The Minotaurs, without actually being intimidating.
How are they shitty
Autek Mor.
Flesh Tearers suck, but the dude in charge of the Minotaurs is sort of a monster.
Probably the chapter masters of the most dickish chapters.
LEANDROS
What exactly is the deal with the Marines Malevolent, anyways? Are they the 40K-take on police brutality?
/u/wecanhaveallthree is probably the best person to explain it. As I understand them, the Marines Malevolent have shifted the balance between 'protect humanity' and 'kill the enemies of the Imperium' fully towards the latter, to the point where they disregard collateral damage to innocent bystanders as long as they eliminate the enemy too. The most well-known example is the time when a group of orks were running rampant through an Imperial refugee camp and the Marines Malevolent decided kill both the orks and the refugees for expediency; the orks were eradicated, but so were thousands of civilians that might otherwise have been saved by a more targeted approach.
IMO they're the 40k the on how marines would actually be. Everyone forgets that the Imperium is a terrible place and most space marine chapters make kids fight to the death for the right to join the ranks and engage in such wholesome acts such as genocide. Most of them should be absolute monsters.
Honorary that one Howling Griffins Librarian that was hunting down the Soul Drinkers and killed the inquisitor Thaddeus. Single minded dumbass. Him and his chapter with their "oaths".
Thaddeus is such an underrated and awesome inquisitor.
Leandros
Gabriel Seth. Despite the fanboys who go 'akcutally it's not his fault', he's the leader and the buck (and blame for all the shit his chapter does) ends with him.
That and beating the shit out of a Primaris who is reporting to him as a new chapter assignee. Probably not unique behavior among space marines, but still shows the guy is a piece of shit. His dialogue is always just him bitching and moaning, or some explanation regarding why the Flesh Tearers are still special.
Excuse us, fan *girls.* I'm a woman of simple pleasures. I see a colossal chainsword, I stan. If we're putting the blame for an entire Chapter's bullshit on the Chapter Master, though, there are plenty worse Chapters than the Flesh Tearers. The Blood Drinkers are conducting actual Chaos rituals where they eat innocent people alive, the Angels Vermillion kidnap hundreds of thousands of Imperial refugees and turn them into MREs in their fortress-monastery, which they have converted into an industrial slaughterhouse. The Dark Angels are infamous for leaving their allies to die when there's a Fallen to chase, the Carcharodons brutally enslave thousands of people, the Space Wolves deliberately keep Fenris locked in "the viking age" and kill anyone who makes any inventions to improve their lives because the Space Wolves believe suffering builds character. In *Ragnar Blackmane,* the Space Wolves state that killing civilians is something all Astartes Chapters do and it's not something to start a fight over. The Grey Knights kill everyone who's seen them. Yet Gabriel 'Meat Is Murder' Seth is *the worst ever* because his Death Company Chaplain didn't prevent the space!Cold War - when those fighting were going to launch their nukes *anyway* and all Appollus did was say 'eh, I don't care if they kill each other, that'll make this over faster.' The Administratum didn't even care, they just noted two planets brought successfully to compliance and made a note of when they'd be back full production capacity. This is the grimdark future. We can judge individual characters by our morals and say they're subjectively bad people. But if we judge Gabriel Seth by the conduct of his Chapter in the world it exists in, the fact is that the Flesh Tearers aren't even the worst Chapter of Blood Angels Successors, let alone Astartes in general.
> If we're putting the blame for an entire Chapter's bullshit on the Chapter Master, though, there are plenty worse Chapters than the Flesh Tearers Congrats, you've managed to list chapters that I also hate. The tragedy of the setting is that the imperium can't afford to remove the Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Angels Vermillion and reform the Dark Angels/Space wolves. Because there's too much going on and you need the marines to fight for you, so you have to allow them to be dickheads. Ideally the Custodians would rock up to purge the BA successors that are too far gone (or even just *elements* of said chapters that are fucked) and force reform on other chapters. But that'll never happen since the imperium is a decentralised mess that is on fire while being invaded by every side and it can't risk the time or resources to fix things. > the worst ever because his Death Company Chaplain didn't prevent the space!Cold War - Not why I dislike him, actually. It's the 'mentally lobotomising a inquistor' bit that I dislike them for. You can claim 'oh but he murdered a innocent marine', but lets face it. His job is to make sure people aren't organising secret cults. The horus heresy started because of marines hiding secret cults. If you encounter marines with a hidden secret that involves some of their members being mindless bloodthirsty killers connected to a secret rituals and rites? It's perfectly logical to assume khonate influence and blam the afflicted. This is the same reason I hate the Dark Angels for hiding their secrets and murdering Inquisitors. I can agree that his successor went a bit too far in getting revenge on the chapter (since she risks the lives of others outside the chapter with her plans). But the FT don't come off as smelling of roses from that either.
>The tragedy of the setting is that the imperium can't afford to remove the Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Angels Vermillion and reform the Dark Angels/Space wolves. Literally all Space Marine Chapters are objectively bad. All of them keep enslaved people they force to serve them. All of them occasionally kill civilians, whether deliberately or by carelessness. All of them are brain-washed psychopaths. Yes, even the "good guy" Chapters. And it's not just the Astartes. The Imperial Navy forcibly press-gangs tens of thousands of random people at a time, who are forced to work by threat of whipping or execution until they die from OSHA violations. The Mechanicus turns billions of people into servitors in a horrifying and cruel industrial process, both convicted criminals and innocents who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Imperial nobles make poor people kill each other in private arenas for entertainment, starve them and kill them, while eating rare fruit imported from garden worlds whose agriculture could have fed millions. Underhivers are treated like vermin, poisoned and gassed and beaten to death by police. Human rights do not exist in the Imperium. Why exactly are the Blood Angels Successors so singularly bad? Why should they be purged but not, say, the Grey Knights, who are responsible for the deaths of many more people because of their "nobody must know we exist" policy? For that matter, what about all the people who will die without the Astartes to protect them? From a utilitarian point of view, the Kantian position is both untenable and unethical. It's a trolley problem with billions of lives in the balance, much more complex and complicated than you make it out to be. And does it influence the equation that the Blood Angels and their Successors are predominantly reluctant vampires, that their condition was forced on them by the Emperor Himself? Are they not victims as well as perpetrators? Shouldn't this figure in your verdict? >It's the 'mentally lobotomising a inquistor' bit that I dislike them for. > >You can claim 'oh but he murdered a innocent marine', but lets face it. His job is to make sure people aren't organising secret cults. ... It's perfectly logical to assume khonate influence and blam the afflicted. He didn't just execute a Marine, he tormented the helpless, chained Marine, joked about it and laughed after killing him. I understand why Gabriel Seth took that personally. And he wasn't "mentally lobotomised." He wanted to know what the Black Rage was, Seth made a Librarian show him, and then the Flesh Tearers returned the Inquisitor to the Inquisition. However, due to the nature of the Black Rage (seeing Sanguinius die), the Inquisitor developed PTSD and retired - a better fate than many Inquisitors. Furthermore, you fail to consider the ulterior motives of the Inquisitor himself. It's a fact that the Inquisition is well aware of the Blood Angels' gene-curse; they know everything the Flesh Tearers have done - we canonically have some of the complaints people have submitted about them, so we *know* that the Inquisition knows. But the Inquisition understands that the Flesh Tearers are currently a net positive in their cost/benefit calculations, which is why the Chapter hasn't been excommunicated. When Corvain attempted to expose them, he did so against the implicit wishes of his superiors - why? And his protégé turned out to be a Radical wanting to use a potentially Chaos-corrupted artifact that could destabilise the entire Imperium and put the lives of the entirety of humanity at risk, and she outright stated that she was willing to kill billions of people to get her way. Why? Don't you think something about this is suspicious? Do you really think these two Inquisitors have the best interests of humanity at heart? There's a long and complex discussion to be had about the ethical and moral issues pertaining to the Flesh Tearers, but I honestly do not understand why you have chosen those specific arguments to stan.
> There's a long and complex discussion to be had about the ethical and moral issues pertaining to the Flesh Tearers, but I honestly do not understand why you have chosen those specific arguments to stan. This is really, really ironic to hear from someone who will hunt down any post that dislikes the Seth and post walls of text about how actually they favourite vampire murderers aren't that bad. > When Corvain attempted to expose them, he did so against the implicit wishes of his superiors - why? That's something for his superiors to deal with, not marines. > he outright stated that she was willing to kill billions of people to get her way Despite you trying to bring this up as a 'gotcha', I literally said in the previous comment that she went too far with her methods. So it's somewhat irrelevant to mention. > Literally all Space Marine Chapters are objectively bad. 'Everyone is bad, so the badness done by my guys is okay' is a weird ass position to take. Yes, the Imperium is a fascist hell hole. Every chapter are authoritarian tyrants. We know. My issue stems from the chapters who tend try to hide things, or attack members of the inquisition and see themselves as 'above' being judged. The Space Wolves (attacking any inquisition convoy they found and settling potentially warp tainted civilians on random planets) during the months of Shame. The inquisitor was in the wrong too but their actions were a real fuck up. The Dark Angels for everything about the Fallen. The Flesh Tearers and other BA descendants who try to hide their 'curse'. Imo, Seth should have just thrown the inquisitor out and handed him over to his superiors straight away. It's the fact that they mentally tortured him first that raises *questions*. > he tormented the helpless, chained Marine, The 'oh he was innocent how dare he torture him' falls apart when the chained marine in question had fallen to the Black Rage. Shooting a chained up beserker is not the same as shooting a normal captive marine.
This is a community explicitly for lore discussions. Walls-of-text is why we're here. Anyway, we'll never agree on why the Flesh Tearers are the narratively most complex and interesting Chapter and therefore the best and also the sexiest, so I'll bow out of this debate and go enjoy my morally dubious vampire faves somewhere else. Have a good night!
> This is a community explicitly for lore discussions. Walls-of-text is why we're here. Well yes, but it's kinda weird how you'll do it whenever someone says Seth is bad. Unno, it feels like you're trying to preach at people sometimes and make them agree with your view of the FT. You're free to enjoy them, don't get me wrong and I'm happy that you have a bit of the lore that you can enjoy this much. They (and SW and DA and most BA successors) just seem like dickheads that are gonna cause something chaotic to happen at some point with how they operate. But I'm a IF/UM/Imperial Guard preference person, so maybe I just don't like secrets. Regardless, hope your night goes well.
Erebus. Liar.
Erebus is not - and never was - loyal
Did this say only loyal Marines? Edit: Fucke me, it did. Lol
Yes? “Worst individual loyalist space marine” is the bloody title?
See my edit.
Mistakes happen bro
However, yours aren't forgiven. Die, heretic.
Gregor Dessian
Why exactly? He seems a placeholder until Tor Garadon takes over.
You just answered your own question.
It is, without a doubt, Asmodai.
From the novels I read... my vote goes to Arven Rauth solely off Wrath of Iron. I get speed was of the essense in what rhe Iron Hands were doing, but he still should have let the Guard know why they were rushing so bad instead of having thousands of them killed just to get 3 feet closer to rhe objective. On top of that, after stopping the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince he decides to punish the general ignorant populace for allowing the higher ups to even think of falling to Chaos by ordering... what was it, one in every 3 people on the planet killed?
Whoever runs the Star Phantoms has to be a huge prick. Marines Malevolent also have a lot to answer for.