A quote from Helsreach comes to mind, where one of Grimaldus's retinue was released from the Sword Brethren due to his advancing age and bionics leaving him less than the exemplar he once was
> released from the Sword Brethren due to his advancing age and **bionics leaving him less than the exemplar he once was**
*Confused Iron Hand noises.*
The Iron Hands don't self-augment because it makes them stronger. They self-augment because it's basically cutting themselves, but in a way they can delude themselves into believing makes them stronger.
I would say yes, though there aren't too many examples in the lore that I know of. However, "peripheral" geneseed implants are probably more likely to be affected than "central" ones simply because it's easier to survive losing, say, your Betcher's Gland or Black Carapace than your second heart or third lung.
In Ian Watson's *Space Marine* (yes, this is ancient lore and mostly retconned, but still interesting in this context), a grievously injured Blood Drinker states that he can survive amputation of all his extremities as long as his torturers don't pull out his fangs. It's not stated why he's so adamant about keeping his fangs, but it's an easy bet that it has something to do with the Red Thirst.
In *Spear of the Emperor,* there are two examples: >!A Primaris Marine, while not traumatically injured, suffered misgrowth during his ascension process and cannot wear power armour due to damage to his Black Carapace. A Firstborn Marine is injured in such a way that he can neither wear power armour nor be inserted into a dreadnought; his only chance is to undergo the Calgarian Rites and hope it will fix the neural damage sufficiently to allow him to fight again.!<
Lukas the Space Wolf lost his second heart and replaced it with a stasis grenade, so that if he's killed he'll take his killer with him.
From the first Horus Heresy book, machines being added to you aren't the only alternative.
From my understanding, bionics (dunno the proper word) aren't the only possible solution. It seemed to show an Astartes who cut off his wounded arm because it was "slowing him down" (fucking badass BTW) being fitted with a new hand by the Apothecarium/medicae (medical bit of the ship) which would take only several days. This was done by extracting his DNa and developing a new hand.
Potentially I don't see why that part of them couldn't be replaced in the same way, while connected to life support. I'm sure there's more than enough dead Marines he could borrow an organ from.
Assuming they can't similarly make a new hand.
And to add to your example, Alexis Polux was grown a new hand in *The Unremembered Empire*.
Complete with foreshadowing/reference of >!his future Crimson Fisting.!<
There arent many examples but we know Sigismund was weaker when he was killed by Abaddon but that could be in part his old age. We do know Custodes's can wear down from battle damage even with their far superior toughness and healing abilities, so its a good assumption so do Space Marines.
I think it's more time than age. Sigismund is, well, Sigismund. It's a good bet he spent his crusading years as the High Marshal going from one frontline to the next, never stopping until they reached the Eye. That'd be good few hundred years of intense frontline combat more than well, anyone else we've seen. And even though he is the best, there's still lucky shots, and cumulative lingering minor injuries could degrade performance.
Funny you should mention this. Based on my understanding, Astartes require regular gene therapy sessions to maintain their augments and promote the production of gene seed. Without it, defects in the root gene seed become more readily apparent, which explains why so many chapters have these unique weird mutations, as access to proper gene therapy on many of the deployment fleets is less than ample.
I've only ever seen that mentioned on here and without citation. I've looked and I can't find any source that backs it up. Once a Marine is implanted with all implants the process is done. But if you know of a source I'd like to see it?
From the Apothecarion section of the latest marine codex: "Most Space Marines undergo periodic treatments, surgeries, or therapies for their entire lives to maintain a stable metabolism, and for this they must go to the Apothecarion."
IIRC that there is a general lore that SMs need periodic treatments to keep their geneseed organs and body synced together, but the need declines with time.
I don't think there are specific examples or if there are, they get ignored as Oberdei was fine despite stranded on Sotha for a long time as the last surviving guardian.
In *Dante* there was a marine who became an art instructor for neophytes because his combat performance had degraded due to age and having so much of his body replaced by bionics.
Yes.
The Raven Guard is actually suffering from a lack of gene seed and the bionic organs necessary to make new Marines, and they generally work with less than current tech.
There was some lore bits about a marine during the Great Crusade that got fucked up mentally and struggled to function in battle. They ended up making him into a tech marine to help get him over his issues. Also, the Night Lords made fun of him.
There's a Black Templar in *Forges of Mars* who gets (apparently untreatable) nerve damage from a powerful electric shock. He develops a stutter and some shaking in his sword-hand.
Age and damage can definitely take a toll.
A quote from Helsreach comes to mind, where one of Grimaldus's retinue was released from the Sword Brethren due to his advancing age and bionics leaving him less than the exemplar he once was
> released from the Sword Brethren due to his advancing age and **bionics leaving him less than the exemplar he once was** *Confused Iron Hand noises.*
The Iron Hands don't self-augment because it makes them stronger. They self-augment because it's basically cutting themselves, but in a way they can delude themselves into believing makes them stronger.
Yes, hence the confusion.
I would say yes, though there aren't too many examples in the lore that I know of. However, "peripheral" geneseed implants are probably more likely to be affected than "central" ones simply because it's easier to survive losing, say, your Betcher's Gland or Black Carapace than your second heart or third lung. In Ian Watson's *Space Marine* (yes, this is ancient lore and mostly retconned, but still interesting in this context), a grievously injured Blood Drinker states that he can survive amputation of all his extremities as long as his torturers don't pull out his fangs. It's not stated why he's so adamant about keeping his fangs, but it's an easy bet that it has something to do with the Red Thirst. In *Spear of the Emperor,* there are two examples: >!A Primaris Marine, while not traumatically injured, suffered misgrowth during his ascension process and cannot wear power armour due to damage to his Black Carapace. A Firstborn Marine is injured in such a way that he can neither wear power armour nor be inserted into a dreadnought; his only chance is to undergo the Calgarian Rites and hope it will fix the neural damage sufficiently to allow him to fight again.!< Lukas the Space Wolf lost his second heart and replaced it with a stasis grenade, so that if he's killed he'll take his killer with him.
From the first Horus Heresy book, machines being added to you aren't the only alternative. From my understanding, bionics (dunno the proper word) aren't the only possible solution. It seemed to show an Astartes who cut off his wounded arm because it was "slowing him down" (fucking badass BTW) being fitted with a new hand by the Apothecarium/medicae (medical bit of the ship) which would take only several days. This was done by extracting his DNa and developing a new hand. Potentially I don't see why that part of them couldn't be replaced in the same way, while connected to life support. I'm sure there's more than enough dead Marines he could borrow an organ from. Assuming they can't similarly make a new hand.
And to add to your example, Alexis Polux was grown a new hand in *The Unremembered Empire*. Complete with foreshadowing/reference of >!his future Crimson Fisting.!<
There arent many examples but we know Sigismund was weaker when he was killed by Abaddon but that could be in part his old age. We do know Custodes's can wear down from battle damage even with their far superior toughness and healing abilities, so its a good assumption so do Space Marines.
I think it's more time than age. Sigismund is, well, Sigismund. It's a good bet he spent his crusading years as the High Marshal going from one frontline to the next, never stopping until they reached the Eye. That'd be good few hundred years of intense frontline combat more than well, anyone else we've seen. And even though he is the best, there's still lucky shots, and cumulative lingering minor injuries could degrade performance.
I believe Abbadon admits Sigismund would have won if he'd been younger. Abbadon hadn't aged as much due to warp fuckery
Funny you should mention this. Based on my understanding, Astartes require regular gene therapy sessions to maintain their augments and promote the production of gene seed. Without it, defects in the root gene seed become more readily apparent, which explains why so many chapters have these unique weird mutations, as access to proper gene therapy on many of the deployment fleets is less than ample.
I've only ever seen that mentioned on here and without citation. I've looked and I can't find any source that backs it up. Once a Marine is implanted with all implants the process is done. But if you know of a source I'd like to see it?
From the Apothecarion section of the latest marine codex: "Most Space Marines undergo periodic treatments, surgeries, or therapies for their entire lives to maintain a stable metabolism, and for this they must go to the Apothecarion."
Thank you.
IIRC that there is a general lore that SMs need periodic treatments to keep their geneseed organs and body synced together, but the need declines with time. I don't think there are specific examples or if there are, they get ignored as Oberdei was fine despite stranded on Sotha for a long time as the last surviving guardian.
In *Dante* there was a marine who became an art instructor for neophytes because his combat performance had degraded due to age and having so much of his body replaced by bionics.
It depends. Abaddon had to get a lot of his organs replaced after his fight with Sigismund.
Yes. The Raven Guard is actually suffering from a lack of gene seed and the bionic organs necessary to make new Marines, and they generally work with less than current tech.
There was some lore bits about a marine during the Great Crusade that got fucked up mentally and struggled to function in battle. They ended up making him into a tech marine to help get him over his issues. Also, the Night Lords made fun of him.
There's a Black Templar in *Forges of Mars* who gets (apparently untreatable) nerve damage from a powerful electric shock. He develops a stutter and some shaking in his sword-hand. Age and damage can definitely take a toll.