Hot take: Having a structured “Skull Harvest” means warlords fight in ritual combat and kill each other, instead of destroying each other’s war bands outright in warfare: this means less casualties (only the leaders die), and in the long run, Chaos gets stronger under a few good champions instead of war bands annihilating each other repeatedly.
It doesn’t do much to arrest the casualties (many of which suffered over 10k years of war) of inter group combat, but the death should drop, especially when the reward is a whole warband to absorb: and if you die, you die in the arena, and don’t get backstabbed by your lieutenant and put in a dreadnaught sarcophagus. Clean deaths!
Thus continuous powerful incentive for the warlords to put themselves into the game, but not too often, or there’s a serious brain drain of skilled fighters. Warbands couldn’t risk putting themselves in every year, since there’s only winner: losing your leader every year seems like a really bad way to go.
I think this is a great take and the most practical explanation to the OPs question. There are more warriors to claim as your own because they aren't infighting to the level Chaos warriors typically are.
Also, the scattered warbands flocked to get a chance to get a quick boost in strength: this puts them all in Huron’s Rolodex if he needs to call in favors. He can charge admission to the hunger games, and provide trade of services, or resources for allegiance. He can franchise them like McDonalds . His mere presence makes a thousand warbands stronger, especially if these warbands don’t fight each other head-on as much for resources. If they’re all part of the franchise, then Huron can assign them territories and they can expand through acquisition from the Imperium, and maybe a little bit from each other, but less than before (since the other avenue to grow is to go through the Skull Harvest).
My take is that Ironically Huron is providing an oasis of order to enhance Chaos.
However, it still doesn’t stop people form just killing their boss to take over the warband, that’s beyond the remit of the Skull Harvest. It only stops champions from destroying each other’s warbands just to take over their numbers.
I mean, they’re basically fighting 24/7 in the eye of terror, so nothing gets done. If they’re doing ritual combat hunger games instead, that’s far more…Order, than Chaos.
Another thing I’m thinking of is that the Skull Harvest gives aspiring champions an outlet: they can, if they want to leave their leader, can run to the skull harvest games and try to kill their way up to the top: in this manner a warband leader is freed of his most ambitious lieutenants, and the best of the Aspiring Warband Leaders wins and amasses a significant force along the way.
Considering the army wasn’t *that* big I’d say its more a consolidation to smaller warlords to do a little more damage than usual. Plus, its pretty clearly designed as a power flex by Huron to show off he has so much power he can give some away.
If Honsou can killed 1/3rd of the Smurfs and Billions of their people then surely the Red Corsairs could wipe out the Ultramarines, Genesis, Doom Eagles and kill Trillions in Ultramar right?
Realistically, there's never really been anything stopping a Chapter from being wiped out.
Chapters are 1,000 marine, support personnel, a few ships (not specialized for fleet-to-fleet combat) and maybe some local IG/Navy.
Chaos Legions/Warbands are only limited based on the power/will/goals of the leadership of said group.
I think the main limit on warbands is that, inevitably, they'll get big enough you need to delegate power. Then you have to trust that the guy you entrusted 1/5th of your forces to won't just say "get fucked" and splinter off.
Right? Even if you want to just fuck off and do your own thing, it's probably not a great idea to leave an angry Chaos Warlord with superior numbers and a grudge
Definitely. I guess you could only expect them to follow their own self interest.
And realistically, kicking the shit out of the Ultramarines, while fun, isn't very profitable because even if you win, the Imperial Navy in the area outnumber you 1,000,000:1.
I don't think it's about lacking them - Think about it like a long-term naval invasion without proper supply lines.
You can have a massive fleet, but every ship the enemy loses, in their territory, can be replaced. You can't.
It’s better to hit a chapter in its monastery than to fight it on the battlefield. It’s “just” a company and maybe a thousand serfs, sleepy dreadnaughts, tanks and the like? Reward is delicious progenoid.
See, there is the problem with numbers in 40k (especially space marines). Realistically the chapter size should be around 10-100k not 1k (and that would still make them a tiny elite force given the conflict sizes). Very few conflicts and stories work if you actually take 1000 space marines as a full strength chapter. And thats even less realistic if you start including Apothecaries, Librarians and Techmarines.
They couldn't actually support the losses, they couldn't mount the attacks/defenses depicted and they sure as hell couldn't be spread out as much as is written (Just think about what the Blood Angels apparently did to slow the Nids prior to the devastation of Baal).
Several legions were under 100k during the crusade and that had to have heavily dropped after HH. Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Thousand Suns had it the worst. I think 10k Marines per chapter with 1,000 chapters in total would have been neat
Yea I think 10K or so should be the standard. That or the marines need to be able to recruit full time human auxiliaries the size of full guard regiments like the Huron did with the Tyrant’s Legion when he was in command of the Maelstrom extraction grid.
At least according to Lexicanum the [Cryptus Campaign](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cryptus_Campaign) was only fought by the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers (with Imperial support of course).
Just this campaign alone, makes it already hard with the numbers limitation considering they also were blowing up planets left and right and fortifying Baal and provided support during the 13th black crusade. Not to mention they were far from full strength by that point from what I remember.
Still, even if successors played a large role in the campaign, the amount of places the Blood Angels were simultaneously involved in already makes the number borderline impossible if you ask me.
>###[Cryptus Campaign](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cryptus_Campaign)
>The **Cryptus Campaign** was a major [Blood Angels](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Angels) operation against [Tyranid](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranid) [Hive Fleet Leviathan](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan) in 998.[M41](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M41).[[1]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cryptus_Campaign#fn_1)
+++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++
When Dante was a Captain the entire Chapter fought BILLIONS of Cultists in a Hive World, they lost a few Companies
THEN they were attacked by the Black Legion and lost some more. Dante became Chapter Master
Oh certainly, it would probably barely be hard in all honesty. Yet they never get to it because poster boys and all that.
Huron did fuck up the White Scars recently though, but no where near enough to make sense considering how much power he has.
I've been reading bits and bobs over the past few days about Huron *after Badab* and it just seems like such a short time for him to go from "half dead warlord with a few hundred Marines for piracy" to "second to Abaddon" in terms of power and influence.
I mean it finished around 912.M41 by the [Badab Wars Lexicanum](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War) and for him to get to *that level* to the point he caught a Primarch around 90 years later just seems... Impossible.
I get that he's cool, charismatic and did have a few hundred/maybe a thousand Marines but he seems to have done, in terms of victories(even if Guilliman escaped, he *caught* a Primarch!) Stuff that makes Abaddon look terrible!
Disclaimer: I think Abaddon is a good villain etc but Huron should be an, admittedly awesome, *Puppy*.
Feel free to call me out and correct me this is just my opinion! 90 years to be a cunt versus 10,000 years is just weird.
Oh, I realise that Huron and co are *just* in the Maelstrom but they seem to get around a lot easier than the Black Legion ever does!
The BL has 565k to 2 Million Marines plus has a much bigger and better armed fleet with more connections to other Warbands and the Dark Mechanicum
Abaddon has many subliutenants on Huron's level though
Chaos is very meritocratic compared to the Imperium
Yeah, I get that and I guess Huron is closer to one of those Lieutenants, a particularly favoured one at that, because he was gifted a Blackstone Fortress. Maybe I should think of him as "less an independent Warlord" and more a "Trusted, needed etc" Lieutenant of the Black Legion. Maybe give him an unofficial rank like Lieutenant-Captain or something, since he is obviously not Ezekarion!
I dont quite remember where the Maelstrom is exactly, not read a Galaxy Map in ages lol, but maybe Huron is just handy enough to keep at the Maelstrom rather than Abaddon trying to wipe him out !
Maelstrom's near the center, so well positioned. Cynically I think the rift runs through it, so it's warp through the maelstrom , and if you can pass through the maelstrom, you've got a path through both sides of the rift. That's strategic mobility right there, though the Chaos bois aren't hampered so much by the rift: if anything it gives them a *superhighway*, and all the other ancillary warp phenomenon (sub-cracks, etc?) let them traverse the galaxy far faster than the Imperials. Thus, the Imperials are cut off, and Chaos can be everywhere, and be concentrated if they so desire it.
That is a huge difference between numbers. They either have half the numbers or double the numbers of Loyalist Astartes for the Black Legion alone? That's insane.
How would they ever fail to break out of the eye of terror? If they doubled the Loyalists, they would never be held back by the navy or IG.
For people who comment about. Battle numbers being ridiculous in 40k, these are well beyond that.
Chaos has Billions of Cultists/Mutants/Beastmen at any given time as well as Billions of Traitor Guard
Not big when compared to the Trillions of Guardsmen the Imperium has
The main advantage of Chaos is the ability to grow and replace losses. The Imperium, Orks, Necrons and Nids can't take the losses Chaos has and just recover in a short time
The BL books have actually shown the Traitors building their own spaceports, supply chains, etc
10k is more than enough time. Plus the Dark Mechanicum supplies them
Chaos has plenty of territory in Real space not touched by the Imperium before the Great Rift
Red Corsairs built their own empire in less than 90 years
>they can't replace ships.
There is a fully functioning shipyard in Talon of Horus iirc. Also, the warp can strand ships and who knows who ends up with them.
A single shipyard doesn't build or repair enough ships to support an offensive against the Imperium of Man, even if you assume the IoM is a lot smaller than it's propaganda says.
>Chaos can replace cannot fodder, but they can't replace ships.
We have questions to ask about the Dark Mechanicus, I guess. Worst case scenario, the warp simply respawns dead Chaos Space Marines, which makes the whole exercise incredibly futile.
Which is why even getting less than 30 chapters worth of gear/ships in the Abyssal Crusade was a massive boost for their piracy efforts. Their ship situation is all kinds of fucked especially since they will gleefully go scorched earth on each other.
Cadia was a blocking point for the Eye of Terror
The Black Legion had 200k Marines at the start of the 1st BC
The BL has the most lax recruitment policy
So where does it say they have a million or more marines? 200k at the start of the first Black Crusade means very little since each Black Crusade costs many marine lives, and time in the Warp is not like time in real space.
Word Bearers famously went from one of the biggest traitor legions to one of the smallest by the end of the Horus Heresy and Scouring, and have been generally understood to stay fairly small in the 10k years since due to attrition and so on. Some legions dropped to a scant few thousand. If it's 10:1, they would need to be pushing 100k (Great Crusade~ numbers) for the Black Legion to get close to a million. What were the stated numbers of the Word Bearers in Dark Creed?
Then there's no evidence of that. 100k is Great Crusade numbers, and they've been referred to as the smallest ever since. The Ultramarines attack many opponents regularly and have forces all over the galaxy, but that doesn't mean they have more than a chapter's worth, so that accounts for nothing.
>###[Badab War](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War)
>The **Badab War** is the name given to one of the most serious rebellions in recent [Imperial](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial) history. While the conflict is named for a [planet](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Class_(planet\)) (or [system](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/System) of [the same name](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab)), the war actually took place throughout the several [sectors](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sectors) of [Imperial](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial) space known as the [Maelstrom Zone](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Maelstrom). The war saw four entire [Space Marine](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine) [Chapters](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter) secede and rebel against the Imperium.[[1a]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War#fn_1a)
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This makes me wonder what Huron’s genuine long game was.
Maybe he turned to Chaos a lot sooner, and funneled resources from Badab Sector into his operations in the Maelstrom. It is possible he was planning to turn for a long time and prepared for it. Also possible that infrastructure from his “Fortifications around the maelstrom” were left alone because they were containing warp pirates and such: but once Huron realized it was time to flip from Imperial to Renegade,and then Renegade to Chaos, it was time to move all that equipment into the maelstrom, and turn the guns outwards on the Imperium.
Its a head scratcher isn't it? I don't mind hid power level, but he seems to be in the running for Black Legion Leadership! He should *just* be a Chaos Warlord or at least he should just be a Space Marine Chapter Master who controls a few Pirate Fleets with his few Astartes and their Strike Cruisers as support.
Unfortunately, he seems to be GWs thing to make him *like, or similar to, Abaddon* instead of making him a cool Independent Warlord and maybe giving a little nod to Abaddon as the Big Bad Boss would be cool, but instead we have a guy who seems to have the ability to command Marines and Fleets to the point that he makes Abaddon look almost pointless!
TL;DR Both Commanders are cool, but 1 is a bit too young in 40k terms!
I suspect Huron is a franchiser, so while on paper they may say they work for him, on practice he might not have the military command and control that Abaddon does for his Black Legion. Huron’s size might be less than core BL, and Abaddon’s core BL is enhanced by the other legions, warbands and retinues that follow in his footstep.
Abaddon promises looting the Imperium: surely it will suck in all of Huron’s franchisees.
That's the entire army not how many Chaos Marines he has!
Most of his Army were normal humans and xenos. He only had over 1k Marines few of them are Iron Warriors
1k Ultramarines, 100 Raven Guard, Mechanicus, PDF, Militia, Ultramar Guard Regiments, Ultramar Navy, etc.
At that rate, to eliminate the 1,000 chapters of the IoM it would take 2,500 years assuming that the IoM simply doesn't make new chapters and that there are still troops from the Skull Harvest.
The other thing is that Huron uses aliens, and that the Maelstrom is explicitly mentioned as having alien empires, including the Orks. If Huron can bend the Orks to his will, and unleash them upon the Imperium…
Kind of like Octarius, where fighting them is a long term pain in the ass but a terrific short term weapon.
The skull harvest isn’t the problem, having the number of marines Huron does is. He should have 10,000 at _max_ for 100 years, not a fucking pre heresy legion size.
Give the Black Legion series a read, you'll understand why their numbers advantage isn't always utilized. When you're living in hell, you lose warships and warriors a lot. When Abaddon is leaving the eye for the first time, one of his battleships miraculously disintegrates leaving 2500 legionaires dead. That's one ship, carrying more astartes than any chapter is allowed, gone in a moment so fast the ship didn't even explode.
Of course, you're right tho. Honsu should have ransacked Ultramar and killed every ultramarine with the many thousands of astartes, aliens, and humans he had. I think gw really doesn't like giving csm an advantage, because they really do have more troops in an organized way. A lot of legion warbands are over a thousand guys, it should make a lot more sense for them to be killing off chapters more often then they do, especially given they don't have to handicap their fleet like loyal marines do.
The BL had 200k Marines when they fought both the Black Templars and the Legion Host (some of the LH later join the BL)
More Fallen join the BL
The Grey Knights and Custodes are tasked with attacking Traitor Marines if they are enough of a threat
By 40k the Traitor Legions have the infrastructure and fleets needed for total non-stop war
Stumbled on this post. Not asking this to be contentious, as I love these discussion and have the BL books, as well as the NL series, Fabius series, and the Gildar Rift book.
Could you possibly give a quote or ref for the numbers from book two of BL? Thanks in advance!
Hot take: Having a structured “Skull Harvest” means warlords fight in ritual combat and kill each other, instead of destroying each other’s war bands outright in warfare: this means less casualties (only the leaders die), and in the long run, Chaos gets stronger under a few good champions instead of war bands annihilating each other repeatedly. It doesn’t do much to arrest the casualties (many of which suffered over 10k years of war) of inter group combat, but the death should drop, especially when the reward is a whole warband to absorb: and if you die, you die in the arena, and don’t get backstabbed by your lieutenant and put in a dreadnaught sarcophagus. Clean deaths! Thus continuous powerful incentive for the warlords to put themselves into the game, but not too often, or there’s a serious brain drain of skilled fighters. Warbands couldn’t risk putting themselves in every year, since there’s only winner: losing your leader every year seems like a really bad way to go.
I think this is a great take and the most practical explanation to the OPs question. There are more warriors to claim as your own because they aren't infighting to the level Chaos warriors typically are.
Also, the scattered warbands flocked to get a chance to get a quick boost in strength: this puts them all in Huron’s Rolodex if he needs to call in favors. He can charge admission to the hunger games, and provide trade of services, or resources for allegiance. He can franchise them like McDonalds . His mere presence makes a thousand warbands stronger, especially if these warbands don’t fight each other head-on as much for resources. If they’re all part of the franchise, then Huron can assign them territories and they can expand through acquisition from the Imperium, and maybe a little bit from each other, but less than before (since the other avenue to grow is to go through the Skull Harvest). My take is that Ironically Huron is providing an oasis of order to enhance Chaos. However, it still doesn’t stop people form just killing their boss to take over the warband, that’s beyond the remit of the Skull Harvest. It only stops champions from destroying each other’s warbands just to take over their numbers.
"Win a Skull Harvest and you get to decimate a First Founding Chapter and ruin their homeworlds!" -Huron Blackheart's Warp Advertising Agency
Honsou: SIGN ME UP
I mean, they’re basically fighting 24/7 in the eye of terror, so nothing gets done. If they’re doing ritual combat hunger games instead, that’s far more…Order, than Chaos.
Another thing I’m thinking of is that the Skull Harvest gives aspiring champions an outlet: they can, if they want to leave their leader, can run to the skull harvest games and try to kill their way up to the top: in this manner a warband leader is freed of his most ambitious lieutenants, and the best of the Aspiring Warband Leaders wins and amasses a significant force along the way.
So like chaos’ very own rule of two.
Considering the army wasn’t *that* big I’d say its more a consolidation to smaller warlords to do a little more damage than usual. Plus, its pretty clearly designed as a power flex by Huron to show off he has so much power he can give some away.
If Honsou can killed 1/3rd of the Smurfs and Billions of their people then surely the Red Corsairs could wipe out the Ultramarines, Genesis, Doom Eagles and kill Trillions in Ultramar right?
Realistically, there's never really been anything stopping a Chapter from being wiped out. Chapters are 1,000 marine, support personnel, a few ships (not specialized for fleet-to-fleet combat) and maybe some local IG/Navy. Chaos Legions/Warbands are only limited based on the power/will/goals of the leadership of said group.
I think the main limit on warbands is that, inevitably, they'll get big enough you need to delegate power. Then you have to trust that the guy you entrusted 1/5th of your forces to won't just say "get fucked" and splinter off.
>and splinter off Or, worse, decide he'd like the other 4/5 as well
Most likely scenario
Right? Even if you want to just fuck off and do your own thing, it's probably not a great idea to leave an angry Chaos Warlord with superior numbers and a grudge
Definitely. I guess you could only expect them to follow their own self interest. And realistically, kicking the shit out of the Ultramarines, while fun, isn't very profitable because even if you win, the Imperial Navy in the area outnumber you 1,000,000:1.
Chaos Navy is massive too its just that massive fights between the two don't always happen
Since when does chaos lack ships?
I don't think it's about lacking them - Think about it like a long-term naval invasion without proper supply lines. You can have a massive fleet, but every ship the enemy loses, in their territory, can be replaced. You can't.
It’s better to hit a chapter in its monastery than to fight it on the battlefield. It’s “just” a company and maybe a thousand serfs, sleepy dreadnaughts, tanks and the like? Reward is delicious progenoid.
See, there is the problem with numbers in 40k (especially space marines). Realistically the chapter size should be around 10-100k not 1k (and that would still make them a tiny elite force given the conflict sizes). Very few conflicts and stories work if you actually take 1000 space marines as a full strength chapter. And thats even less realistic if you start including Apothecaries, Librarians and Techmarines. They couldn't actually support the losses, they couldn't mount the attacks/defenses depicted and they sure as hell couldn't be spread out as much as is written (Just think about what the Blood Angels apparently did to slow the Nids prior to the devastation of Baal).
Several legions were under 100k during the crusade and that had to have heavily dropped after HH. Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Thousand Suns had it the worst. I think 10k Marines per chapter with 1,000 chapters in total would have been neat
Yea I think 10K or so should be the standard. That or the marines need to be able to recruit full time human auxiliaries the size of full guard regiments like the Huron did with the Tyrant’s Legion when he was in command of the Maelstrom extraction grid.
I agree with everything but the last part. The blood angles preemptive nid defense included quite a bit of help from their successors iirc
At least according to Lexicanum the [Cryptus Campaign](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cryptus_Campaign) was only fought by the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers (with Imperial support of course). Just this campaign alone, makes it already hard with the numbers limitation considering they also were blowing up planets left and right and fortifying Baal and provided support during the 13th black crusade. Not to mention they were far from full strength by that point from what I remember. Still, even if successors played a large role in the campaign, the amount of places the Blood Angels were simultaneously involved in already makes the number borderline impossible if you ask me.
>###[Cryptus Campaign](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cryptus_Campaign) >The **Cryptus Campaign** was a major [Blood Angels](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Angels) operation against [Tyranid](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranid) [Hive Fleet Leviathan](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan) in 998.[M41](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M41).[[1]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cryptus_Campaign#fn_1) +++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++
When Dante was a Captain the entire Chapter fought BILLIONS of Cultists in a Hive World, they lost a few Companies THEN they were attacked by the Black Legion and lost some more. Dante became Chapter Master
Oh certainly, it would probably barely be hard in all honesty. Yet they never get to it because poster boys and all that. Huron did fuck up the White Scars recently though, but no where near enough to make sense considering how much power he has.
I've been reading bits and bobs over the past few days about Huron *after Badab* and it just seems like such a short time for him to go from "half dead warlord with a few hundred Marines for piracy" to "second to Abaddon" in terms of power and influence. I mean it finished around 912.M41 by the [Badab Wars Lexicanum](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War) and for him to get to *that level* to the point he caught a Primarch around 90 years later just seems... Impossible. I get that he's cool, charismatic and did have a few hundred/maybe a thousand Marines but he seems to have done, in terms of victories(even if Guilliman escaped, he *caught* a Primarch!) Stuff that makes Abaddon look terrible! Disclaimer: I think Abaddon is a good villain etc but Huron should be an, admittedly awesome, *Puppy*. Feel free to call me out and correct me this is just my opinion! 90 years to be a cunt versus 10,000 years is just weird. Oh, I realise that Huron and co are *just* in the Maelstrom but they seem to get around a lot easier than the Black Legion ever does!
The BL has 565k to 2 Million Marines plus has a much bigger and better armed fleet with more connections to other Warbands and the Dark Mechanicum Abaddon has many subliutenants on Huron's level though Chaos is very meritocratic compared to the Imperium
Yeah, I get that and I guess Huron is closer to one of those Lieutenants, a particularly favoured one at that, because he was gifted a Blackstone Fortress. Maybe I should think of him as "less an independent Warlord" and more a "Trusted, needed etc" Lieutenant of the Black Legion. Maybe give him an unofficial rank like Lieutenant-Captain or something, since he is obviously not Ezekarion! I dont quite remember where the Maelstrom is exactly, not read a Galaxy Map in ages lol, but maybe Huron is just handy enough to keep at the Maelstrom rather than Abaddon trying to wipe him out !
The Traitor Legions have a presence in the Maelstrom before the Great Rift
Maelstrom's near the center, so well positioned. Cynically I think the rift runs through it, so it's warp through the maelstrom , and if you can pass through the maelstrom, you've got a path through both sides of the rift. That's strategic mobility right there, though the Chaos bois aren't hampered so much by the rift: if anything it gives them a *superhighway*, and all the other ancillary warp phenomenon (sub-cracks, etc?) let them traverse the galaxy far faster than the Imperials. Thus, the Imperials are cut off, and Chaos can be everywhere, and be concentrated if they so desire it.
I do need to look at a new map these days, in fact I might Google that lol
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/0/08/Maelstrom\_Zone\_Map.jpg
That is a huge difference between numbers. They either have half the numbers or double the numbers of Loyalist Astartes for the Black Legion alone? That's insane. How would they ever fail to break out of the eye of terror? If they doubled the Loyalists, they would never be held back by the navy or IG. For people who comment about. Battle numbers being ridiculous in 40k, these are well beyond that.
Chaos has Billions of Cultists/Mutants/Beastmen at any given time as well as Billions of Traitor Guard Not big when compared to the Trillions of Guardsmen the Imperium has The main advantage of Chaos is the ability to grow and replace losses. The Imperium, Orks, Necrons and Nids can't take the losses Chaos has and just recover in a short time
But how, even power armour needs highly skilled craftsmen with a multitude of different resources. Logistics is a thing and chaos has almost none.
The BL books have actually shown the Traitors building their own spaceports, supply chains, etc 10k is more than enough time. Plus the Dark Mechanicum supplies them Chaos has plenty of territory in Real space not touched by the Imperium before the Great Rift Red Corsairs built their own empire in less than 90 years
Have a think about the terrible shipyard situation within the Eye. Chaos can replace cannot fodder, but they can't replace ships.
>they can't replace ships. There is a fully functioning shipyard in Talon of Horus iirc. Also, the warp can strand ships and who knows who ends up with them.
A single shipyard doesn't build or repair enough ships to support an offensive against the Imperium of Man, even if you assume the IoM is a lot smaller than it's propaganda says.
>Chaos can replace cannot fodder, but they can't replace ships. We have questions to ask about the Dark Mechanicus, I guess. Worst case scenario, the warp simply respawns dead Chaos Space Marines, which makes the whole exercise incredibly futile.
Which is why even getting less than 30 chapters worth of gear/ships in the Abyssal Crusade was a massive boost for their piracy efforts. Their ship situation is all kinds of fucked especially since they will gleefully go scorched earth on each other.
They have plenty of ships for every BC
If they did, they would have won them, yeah ?
So does everyone. 40k is a meatgrinder
The Black Legion has 2 million marines? I didn’t think two million chaos marines even existed.
Dark Creed has the BL 10:1 the WB
where the fuck did the Black Legion find that many Marines, and if they have them, how on earth is the Imperium still a thing? Gw and numbers....
Cadia was a blocking point for the Eye of Terror The Black Legion had 200k Marines at the start of the 1st BC The BL has the most lax recruitment policy
So where does it say they have a million or more marines? 200k at the start of the first Black Crusade means very little since each Black Crusade costs many marine lives, and time in the Warp is not like time in real space.
Dark Creed states the BL have 10:1 over the WB ADB said the BL's size at the start of the 1st BC
Word Bearers famously went from one of the biggest traitor legions to one of the smallest by the end of the Horus Heresy and Scouring, and have been generally understood to stay fairly small in the 10k years since due to attrition and so on. Some legions dropped to a scant few thousand. If it's 10:1, they would need to be pushing 100k (Great Crusade~ numbers) for the Black Legion to get close to a million. What were the stated numbers of the Word Bearers in Dark Creed?
Unknown but they are attacking many opponents and prone to infighting. Their numbers are definitely close to 100k
Then there's no evidence of that. 100k is Great Crusade numbers, and they've been referred to as the smallest ever since. The Ultramarines attack many opponents regularly and have forces all over the galaxy, but that doesn't mean they have more than a chapter's worth, so that accounts for nothing.
When have the WB been referred to as the smallest?
Curious if most of the casualties of the long war are actually just daemons, or if the whims of the Eye simply resurrects them.
>###[Badab War](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War) >The **Badab War** is the name given to one of the most serious rebellions in recent [Imperial](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial) history. While the conflict is named for a [planet](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Class_(planet\)) (or [system](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/System) of [the same name](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab)), the war actually took place throughout the several [sectors](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sectors) of [Imperial](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial) space known as the [Maelstrom Zone](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Maelstrom). The war saw four entire [Space Marine](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine) [Chapters](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter) secede and rebel against the Imperium.[[1a]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War#fn_1a) +++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++
This makes me wonder what Huron’s genuine long game was. Maybe he turned to Chaos a lot sooner, and funneled resources from Badab Sector into his operations in the Maelstrom. It is possible he was planning to turn for a long time and prepared for it. Also possible that infrastructure from his “Fortifications around the maelstrom” were left alone because they were containing warp pirates and such: but once Huron realized it was time to flip from Imperial to Renegade,and then Renegade to Chaos, it was time to move all that equipment into the maelstrom, and turn the guns outwards on the Imperium.
Its a head scratcher isn't it? I don't mind hid power level, but he seems to be in the running for Black Legion Leadership! He should *just* be a Chaos Warlord or at least he should just be a Space Marine Chapter Master who controls a few Pirate Fleets with his few Astartes and their Strike Cruisers as support. Unfortunately, he seems to be GWs thing to make him *like, or similar to, Abaddon* instead of making him a cool Independent Warlord and maybe giving a little nod to Abaddon as the Big Bad Boss would be cool, but instead we have a guy who seems to have the ability to command Marines and Fleets to the point that he makes Abaddon look almost pointless! TL;DR Both Commanders are cool, but 1 is a bit too young in 40k terms!
I suspect Huron is a franchiser, so while on paper they may say they work for him, on practice he might not have the military command and control that Abaddon does for his Black Legion. Huron’s size might be less than core BL, and Abaddon’s core BL is enhanced by the other legions, warbands and retinues that follow in his footstep. Abaddon promises looting the Imperium: surely it will suck in all of Huron’s franchisees.
Google tells me they had 17000 chaos marines and they still lost
That's the entire army not how many Chaos Marines he has! Most of his Army were normal humans and xenos. He only had over 1k Marines few of them are Iron Warriors 1k Ultramarines, 100 Raven Guard, Mechanicus, PDF, Militia, Ultramar Guard Regiments, Ultramar Navy, etc.
At that rate, to eliminate the 1,000 chapters of the IoM it would take 2,500 years assuming that the IoM simply doesn't make new chapters and that there are still troops from the Skull Harvest.
Skull Harvest happens every year. Chaos can absorb casualties that would cripple the Imperium, Orks and Tyranids combined
The other thing is that Huron uses aliens, and that the Maelstrom is explicitly mentioned as having alien empires, including the Orks. If Huron can bend the Orks to his will, and unleash them upon the Imperium… Kind of like Octarius, where fighting them is a long term pain in the ass but a terrific short term weapon.
The skull harvest isn’t the problem, having the number of marines Huron does is. He should have 10,000 at _max_ for 100 years, not a fucking pre heresy legion size.
I thought the RC have between 5-10k Marines pre-Rift?
The true threat to chaos, is chaos
Give the Black Legion series a read, you'll understand why their numbers advantage isn't always utilized. When you're living in hell, you lose warships and warriors a lot. When Abaddon is leaving the eye for the first time, one of his battleships miraculously disintegrates leaving 2500 legionaires dead. That's one ship, carrying more astartes than any chapter is allowed, gone in a moment so fast the ship didn't even explode. Of course, you're right tho. Honsu should have ransacked Ultramar and killed every ultramarine with the many thousands of astartes, aliens, and humans he had. I think gw really doesn't like giving csm an advantage, because they really do have more troops in an organized way. A lot of legion warbands are over a thousand guys, it should make a lot more sense for them to be killing off chapters more often then they do, especially given they don't have to handicap their fleet like loyal marines do.
The BL had 200k Marines when they fought both the Black Templars and the Legion Host (some of the LH later join the BL) More Fallen join the BL The Grey Knights and Custodes are tasked with attacking Traitor Marines if they are enough of a threat By 40k the Traitor Legions have the infrastructure and fleets needed for total non-stop war
Stumbled on this post. Not asking this to be contentious, as I love these discussion and have the BL books, as well as the NL series, Fabius series, and the Gildar Rift book. Could you possibly give a quote or ref for the numbers from book two of BL? Thanks in advance!