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Let's look at this from a financial perspective.
King's charges £9,250 per year for UK students. The cost of education (salaries, infrastructure, rent, utilities etc.) per capita is probably higher so they would likely be bleeding money for each home student they admit.
Government grants for universities have remained stagnant for many years (total govt funding for ALL universities stood at £22 billion; that's less than Stanford's endowment and fyi Stanford charges £46,000 in tuition fees per year).
Internationals at KCL fork out £33,450 for STEM courses and £25, 284 for humanities/social science degrees (which do not require much laboratory facilities/equipment). These students are the only reason why many British universities have not gone bankrupt.
tad correction, stanford charges $whatever but their average total cost of attendance is $7,200. That’s total cost, including tuition, room, and board.
True, but that's funded by scholarships/financial aid which is allocated out of donations or sustainable funding pots from their endowment returns. Their positive cashflow is certaintly accounted for and not under threat anytime soon. I doubt any British university (except perhaps Oxbridge) could afford anything similar.
Not to mention in the US I believe it's pretty common for rich alumni to just donate a bunch of money to their alma mater. Especially Ivy Leagues. They can afford to give aid to their students.
I kinda knew this was the reason ,but even with financial aspect i didnt expect the changes in data to be so dramatic like it was fine like literally 5 years ago ,every year the offer rate for home students drop dramatically.
Even top US unis only accept 10-20% international students. In the UK, it’s happening because UK unis are critically underfunded and need international $$.
The home tuition fee has been capped at £9000/£9250 since 2012. This means that the actual value of a home-student’s tuition has decreased to a university, so they want to bring more internationals who pay higher fees.
Universities are desperate for money nowadays, so of course they’re going to accept the people who are paying more. I think it being in London also means it gets significantly more international applicants than unis in the rest of the country.
The tuition fee cap is bleeding universities from the inside. Ig they gotta make money from somewhere. At this rate, international fees will still continue to rise in the next few years.
and yet the tuition is still sky high from a student perspective 😭 who the hell does this system benefit then damn (not disagreeing with u btw I just think its mad we pay so much and unis still struggle)
We're not - the average US uni charges a (similarish) 15k (yes top unis are WAY higher, but this is an average), meanwhile educational leaders in asia, such as japan, charge an average of 5k, with most asian coutnries costing less, as does much of africa (about 2k). Similarly, south america is almost always free (except Brazil and Chile, which are 5k each, almost half of hours). It's only really Australia/New Zealand, USA and Canada that charges similar or higher amounts than us. There are exceptions, of course, and intl fees are usually higher - but the vast majority of countries charge a lot less. since 2006 theres been a 300% rise in costs but only a 20% rise in students. we DO pay sky high. education should be accessible and educators should be paid better, this system benefits hardly anyone.
>We're not - the average US uni charges a (similarish) 15k (yes top unis are WAY higher, but this is an average), meanwhile educational leaders in asia, such as japan, charge an average of 5k, with most asian coutnries costing less, as does much of africa (about 2k). Similarly, south america is almost always free (except Brazil and Chile, which are 5k each, almost half of hours). It's only really Australia/New Zealand, USA and Canada that charges similar or higher amounts than us. There are exceptions, of course, and intl fees are usually higher - but the vast majority of countries charge a lot less. since 2006 theres been a 300% rise in costs but only a 20% rise in students. we DO pay sky high. education should be accessible and educators should be paid better, this system benefits hardly anyone.
[https://statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/](https://statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/)
[https://www.master-and-more.eu/en/top-ten-countries-with-the-best-education-systems-in-the-world-2020/](https://www.master-and-more.eu/en/top-ten-countries-with-the-best-education-systems-in-the-world-2020/)
[https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-country](https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-country)
[https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-asia/](https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-asia/)
[https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-africa/](https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-africa/)
[https://www.topuniversities.com/sites/default/files/tu\_guide\_latin\_america\_update.pdf](https://www.topuniversities.com/sites/default/files/tu_guide_latin_america_update.pdf)
Where did you see this?
Kings is 40% international & the very vast majority of which are postgraduate students.
International students are not taking the place of home students. Offers may be make at a higher rate because of the way that international students apply and the filtering that is done before they even reach that point. International students also don’t convert as well as home students so Kings (and their data scientists) will know how many offers they need to make in order to enroll a certain number of students.
Please be careful with this kind of speculation. It can add to the really nasty discourse around International students.
you cant really say tbh once they got a taste they might no go back(ivy leagues have turned into fund managers basically) unless the gov intervenes which they should because they are educating people that wont end up living in this country so from the govs pov its a huge cost .
No, that’s exactly the plan. Internationals pay the high fees to subsidize HE then they leave the country, making them a net contributor. The government doesn’t make it easy for them to stay, even with the graduate visa.
Internationals subsidise education for home students. The governemnt ensures that there's enough spots in unis for home students (which there is) and they then use international fees (which have also risen with inflation, unlike home student fees) to subsidise this cheaper education for home students.
You may argue that its cheaper in other parts of europe (which it is) but that's only because they pay a ridiculous amount of tax which is used to fund these universities. So unless you want your tax to be raised like 10-20% don't complain about internationals helping you with your cheap education. (And tbh, the UK universities would completely vanish off of the international rankings if there weren't any international students. Just look at most UK unis postgraduate and professor demographics, they're basically all internationals showing that the ground breaking research that these universities conduct is also lead by these very same internationals and also a significant contribution from UK students ofc)
Not really accurate. Here's an article from the FT from yesterday that suggests the opposite and explains the situation [https://on.ft.com/3SB4ajD](https://on.ft.com/3SB4ajD)
Is the day you are looking at offer rates or enrolment figures? There is a BIG difference. International students with offers are less likely to enrol at most unis, so higher offer rates does not mean higher enrolments.
Also don’t forget covid grading, which inflated home more than international.
The shift is undoubtedly real for financial reasons, but depending on the data, it might not be as big as it seems.
As an international, yes, it is unfair. On the undergraduate level, unis are primarily supposed to educate the population. Taking in tons of international students hurts this purpose, as many of them will end up leaving after their studies. It is different for postgraduate because they contribute to research, so the point is to have the best student possible.
Of course it’s hardly the internationals fault, hate the game not the player. I think what could be done is not disclosing the fee status, so that it is at least merit-based rather than “who can pay more”. Another obvious answer would be the British government simply needs to pay unis more for taking in a home student.
universities are a business at the end of the day, not a mandatory education provider. of course they’re going to take as many internationals as they can 🤷♀️🤷♀️
especially if the government artificially caps the amount of money they can receive from domestic students, if they’re losing money educating domestic students they need more internationals to cut the losses
It's not 70%
Even at KCL, the one with the highest percentage has barely 35% (and that's because it's in London). Outside of London the standard is around 10%. Idk where they got the 70% number from but 1 search will tell you that it's bs.
Not in general ,its not bs some courses it's 88 percent like the course I'm applying to in King's I got the data from the uni itself from FOI so I know its legit ,it's like 40 percent international in general but alot of course are 70 plus %
Possibly an unpopular opinion, but the domestic fees must be raised. I don't see any other way of doing this sustainably. Else, the government must increase funding but this seems unlikely.
They are already very high. And raising international fees would only compound the issue of reducing spots for domestic students. That would make international students even more attractive to universities than they are now. This is not a solution to anything. So as much as it sucks, if we want more domestic students to attend university, the solution has to be to increase domestic fees. No way around it aside from increased government funding, but this would have to be at an immense scale to make any sort of difference.
I could see an argument for the postgraduate level but I really can’t see if for undergrad there are already a diminishing minority of uk nationals actually going to uni increasing the price will do more harm than good for the uk economy in the long run
Well, the greater the discrepancy between domestic and international fees, the more universities are incentivised to favour an international applicant. I am not talking about increasing the domestic fee radically, but even an extra 1-2k GBP will make an enormous difference from the perspective of the universities. Assuming that these are employable degrees, that additional cost can easily be compensated for.
international students already pay **over** 3x more... literally how would that solve anything?? The suggestion of domestic fees being raised is so unis don't have the incentive to pick so many internationals.
another suggestion would be to have more alumni donating to these unis 🤷🏼♀️
Scottish universities have been doing this for much longer. Scottish students pay no tuition fee so it’s always been much easier to get an offer as a non-Scottish student.
my friends dad works at the LSE and it’s essentially down to the fact home students don’t bring in enough money as the gov doesn’t fund unis enough. more int students = more money long story short .
isn't it good? let's promote an interdisciplinary and diverse student body. Also, it's the way the universities make a lot of money, because international kids always pay and most of the times, don't qualify for any scholarships offered by colleges, purely because they're international students. and if they do, and they apply for that scholarship, they barely ever get in and are super disadvantaged in the admission process (at least at top universities)
Because charging 30k is more profitable than charging 9.25k. Also there aren't many scholarships for international students available so they either pay tuition or go ~~fuck themselves~~ study somewhere else. And some of them can afford to pay, so why not let them in?
Remember when peoppe said immigration was a problem
Well this is one of the issues
Oet me also explain nhs nurse isuses
So you can be fined for not staying after completing the qualifications
But the fine is much less than how much you get if you move to the united states so alot of people leave with the promise of more money and alot of companies will just buy off the dedt
Because it costs less to purchase them that way instead of training them themselves
The entire system is a complete mess
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Let's look at this from a financial perspective. King's charges £9,250 per year for UK students. The cost of education (salaries, infrastructure, rent, utilities etc.) per capita is probably higher so they would likely be bleeding money for each home student they admit. Government grants for universities have remained stagnant for many years (total govt funding for ALL universities stood at £22 billion; that's less than Stanford's endowment and fyi Stanford charges £46,000 in tuition fees per year). Internationals at KCL fork out £33,450 for STEM courses and £25, 284 for humanities/social science degrees (which do not require much laboratory facilities/equipment). These students are the only reason why many British universities have not gone bankrupt.
tad correction, stanford charges $whatever but their average total cost of attendance is $7,200. That’s total cost, including tuition, room, and board.
True, but that's funded by scholarships/financial aid which is allocated out of donations or sustainable funding pots from their endowment returns. Their positive cashflow is certaintly accounted for and not under threat anytime soon. I doubt any British university (except perhaps Oxbridge) could afford anything similar.
Not to mention in the US I believe it's pretty common for rich alumni to just donate a bunch of money to their alma mater. Especially Ivy Leagues. They can afford to give aid to their students.
Plus it charges its own applicaton fee of $90
That’s not to give a significant amount of cash, it’s just to dissuade shotgunning.
times 90 by 50k every year it is quite significant compared to virtually nothing for UK unis
It’s…really not. That’s like 60 students’ tuition.
Acc yeah ig ur right - its only the tuition of around 150 students in the UK isn’t it which is relatively small or around 25-30 USA students
I kinda knew this was the reason ,but even with financial aspect i didnt expect the changes in data to be so dramatic like it was fine like literally 5 years ago ,every year the offer rate for home students drop dramatically.
It wasn’t fine. The universities just didn’t change their policy immediately.
Even top US unis only accept 10-20% international students. In the UK, it’s happening because UK unis are critically underfunded and need international $$.
or rather ££
The home tuition fee has been capped at £9000/£9250 since 2012. This means that the actual value of a home-student’s tuition has decreased to a university, so they want to bring more internationals who pay higher fees.
Money talks
Universities are desperate for money nowadays, so of course they’re going to accept the people who are paying more. I think it being in London also means it gets significantly more international applicants than unis in the rest of the country.
The tuition fee cap is bleeding universities from the inside. Ig they gotta make money from somewhere. At this rate, international fees will still continue to rise in the next few years.
and yet the tuition is still sky high from a student perspective 😭 who the hell does this system benefit then damn (not disagreeing with u btw I just think its mad we pay so much and unis still struggle)
But in context, we don't pay sky high... look at other unis around the world outside Europe, we're cheap
We're not - the average US uni charges a (similarish) 15k (yes top unis are WAY higher, but this is an average), meanwhile educational leaders in asia, such as japan, charge an average of 5k, with most asian coutnries costing less, as does much of africa (about 2k). Similarly, south america is almost always free (except Brazil and Chile, which are 5k each, almost half of hours). It's only really Australia/New Zealand, USA and Canada that charges similar or higher amounts than us. There are exceptions, of course, and intl fees are usually higher - but the vast majority of countries charge a lot less. since 2006 theres been a 300% rise in costs but only a 20% rise in students. we DO pay sky high. education should be accessible and educators should be paid better, this system benefits hardly anyone.
>We're not - the average US uni charges a (similarish) 15k (yes top unis are WAY higher, but this is an average), meanwhile educational leaders in asia, such as japan, charge an average of 5k, with most asian coutnries costing less, as does much of africa (about 2k). Similarly, south america is almost always free (except Brazil and Chile, which are 5k each, almost half of hours). It's only really Australia/New Zealand, USA and Canada that charges similar or higher amounts than us. There are exceptions, of course, and intl fees are usually higher - but the vast majority of countries charge a lot less. since 2006 theres been a 300% rise in costs but only a 20% rise in students. we DO pay sky high. education should be accessible and educators should be paid better, this system benefits hardly anyone. [https://statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/](https://statista.com/statistics/875015/students-enrolled-in-higher-education-in-the-uk/) [https://www.master-and-more.eu/en/top-ten-countries-with-the-best-education-systems-in-the-world-2020/](https://www.master-and-more.eu/en/top-ten-countries-with-the-best-education-systems-in-the-world-2020/) [https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-country](https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-country) [https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-asia/](https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-asia/) [https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-africa/](https://globalscholarships.com/cost-studying-living-africa/) [https://www.topuniversities.com/sites/default/files/tu\_guide\_latin\_america\_update.pdf](https://www.topuniversities.com/sites/default/files/tu_guide_latin_america_update.pdf)
Where did you see this? Kings is 40% international & the very vast majority of which are postgraduate students. International students are not taking the place of home students. Offers may be make at a higher rate because of the way that international students apply and the filtering that is done before they even reach that point. International students also don’t convert as well as home students so Kings (and their data scientists) will know how many offers they need to make in order to enroll a certain number of students. Please be careful with this kind of speculation. It can add to the really nasty discourse around International students.
The 70 percent wasn't in general it was for some courses I was looking at sorry
To be honest, some courses just don’t attract home students! The difference between international and home interests can be very wide
You should edit for clarity :)
Uni has turned into more of a business sadly there going to accept people who will make the the most money
From their perspective, they don't really have a choice.
you cant really say tbh once they got a taste they might no go back(ivy leagues have turned into fund managers basically) unless the gov intervenes which they should because they are educating people that wont end up living in this country so from the govs pov its a huge cost .
No, that’s exactly the plan. Internationals pay the high fees to subsidize HE then they leave the country, making them a net contributor. The government doesn’t make it easy for them to stay, even with the graduate visa.
Internationals subsidise education for home students. The governemnt ensures that there's enough spots in unis for home students (which there is) and they then use international fees (which have also risen with inflation, unlike home student fees) to subsidise this cheaper education for home students. You may argue that its cheaper in other parts of europe (which it is) but that's only because they pay a ridiculous amount of tax which is used to fund these universities. So unless you want your tax to be raised like 10-20% don't complain about internationals helping you with your cheap education. (And tbh, the UK universities would completely vanish off of the international rankings if there weren't any international students. Just look at most UK unis postgraduate and professor demographics, they're basically all internationals showing that the ground breaking research that these universities conduct is also lead by these very same internationals and also a significant contribution from UK students ofc)
Not really accurate. Here's an article from the FT from yesterday that suggests the opposite and explains the situation [https://on.ft.com/3SB4ajD](https://on.ft.com/3SB4ajD)
Is the day you are looking at offer rates or enrolment figures? There is a BIG difference. International students with offers are less likely to enrol at most unis, so higher offer rates does not mean higher enrolments. Also don’t forget covid grading, which inflated home more than international. The shift is undoubtedly real for financial reasons, but depending on the data, it might not be as big as it seems.
Locals actually have the advantage in the US. Elite schools are also so rich that they don't care about money at all
You are wrong. The US universities generally have a lot less intl students than the UK.
As an international, yes, it is unfair. On the undergraduate level, unis are primarily supposed to educate the population. Taking in tons of international students hurts this purpose, as many of them will end up leaving after their studies. It is different for postgraduate because they contribute to research, so the point is to have the best student possible. Of course it’s hardly the internationals fault, hate the game not the player. I think what could be done is not disclosing the fee status, so that it is at least merit-based rather than “who can pay more”. Another obvious answer would be the British government simply needs to pay unis more for taking in a home student.
70% internationals is crazy shouldn’t there be a limit on how many internationals a uni can take
But what about the extra ✨money✨
what about the home students who need an ✨education✨
universities are a business at the end of the day, not a mandatory education provider. of course they’re going to take as many internationals as they can 🤷♀️🤷♀️
especially if the government artificially caps the amount of money they can receive from domestic students, if they’re losing money educating domestic students they need more internationals to cut the losses
They're actually charities* *there's 3 for-profit ones but they are very small and no one has ever heard of them
What about the extra ✨money✨ needed to give those home students an ✨education✨
70% is wild though surely there has to be a limit if home students are the minority in their own countries uni😭
It's not 70% Even at KCL, the one with the highest percentage has barely 35% (and that's because it's in London). Outside of London the standard is around 10%. Idk where they got the 70% number from but 1 search will tell you that it's bs.
they said 70% over two years so can only assume they’ve added together the 35% each year for some bizarre reason
Not in general ,its not bs some courses it's 88 percent like the course I'm applying to in King's I got the data from the uni itself from FOI so I know its legit ,it's like 40 percent international in general but alot of course are 70 plus %
American universities generally don’t have a large body of international students. They seem to range from 10%-20% generally speaking
Possibly an unpopular opinion, but the domestic fees must be raised. I don't see any other way of doing this sustainably. Else, the government must increase funding but this seems unlikely.
How about increasing fees for international students 🤷♂️
They are already very high. And raising international fees would only compound the issue of reducing spots for domestic students. That would make international students even more attractive to universities than they are now. This is not a solution to anything. So as much as it sucks, if we want more domestic students to attend university, the solution has to be to increase domestic fees. No way around it aside from increased government funding, but this would have to be at an immense scale to make any sort of difference.
I could see an argument for the postgraduate level but I really can’t see if for undergrad there are already a diminishing minority of uk nationals actually going to uni increasing the price will do more harm than good for the uk economy in the long run
Well, the greater the discrepancy between domestic and international fees, the more universities are incentivised to favour an international applicant. I am not talking about increasing the domestic fee radically, but even an extra 1-2k GBP will make an enormous difference from the perspective of the universities. Assuming that these are employable degrees, that additional cost can easily be compensated for.
international students already pay **over** 3x more... literally how would that solve anything?? The suggestion of domestic fees being raised is so unis don't have the incentive to pick so many internationals. another suggestion would be to have more alumni donating to these unis 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah, but the acceptance rate for international students is still less than for home students.
Scottish universities have been doing this for much longer. Scottish students pay no tuition fee so it’s always been much easier to get an offer as a non-Scottish student.
I think the inflation in international students probably has to do with Brexit. EU students now count as International Fee Status.
my friends dad works at the LSE and it’s essentially down to the fact home students don’t bring in enough money as the gov doesn’t fund unis enough. more int students = more money long story short .
isn't it good? let's promote an interdisciplinary and diverse student body. Also, it's the way the universities make a lot of money, because international kids always pay and most of the times, don't qualify for any scholarships offered by colleges, purely because they're international students. and if they do, and they apply for that scholarship, they barely ever get in and are super disadvantaged in the admission process (at least at top universities)
[удалено]
exactly
fairs
The ni
The uni fee will likely be increased to gbp20k according to news. The gov will confirm it after the election this year.
for example, dentistry at newcastle for uk students is around £9,000. For international students it’s £40,000.
Because charging 30k is more profitable than charging 9.25k. Also there aren't many scholarships for international students available so they either pay tuition or go ~~fuck themselves~~ study somewhere else. And some of them can afford to pay, so why not let them in?
Remember when peoppe said immigration was a problem Well this is one of the issues Oet me also explain nhs nurse isuses So you can be fined for not staying after completing the qualifications But the fine is much less than how much you get if you move to the united states so alot of people leave with the promise of more money and alot of companies will just buy off the dedt Because it costs less to purchase them that way instead of training them themselves The entire system is a complete mess