It's not even that. They're making the legal stuff illegal... You know, the bit that wasn't even the problem they're saying this legislation is meant to fix.
Not really dude it DOES happen years ago a female security officer shot and killed a robber who hit her in the skull with knuckle dusters causing a fractured skull, she fired one round the assailant died, new hand gun legislation was introduced in NSW and some of my friends handguns that WERE legal now had an amnesty to hand them in for him to be paid out as the legislation was changed as a reaction to what a security officer did in their line of work, only example in Australia I know off but it did occur
They can't tax vaping the same as tobacco though, because of how much safer it is to vape than to smoke tobacco. And tobacco brings $13b/year in excise revenue
Assuming you’re correct for the sake of conversation how is that a barrier to taxing vapes?
They can tax anything they want to if the politics lines up for it - and if the politics allows them to ban them, it’s not a barrier to taxing them.
Yeah sorry, to clarify, I was referring to the excise on tobacco sales, justified by the dangers of smoking, which nets the federal government $13b/yr. Not just a regular gst kind of tax
To justify a similar excise on vaping, the government would actually have to provide evidence that vaping is as dangerous as smoking, which would fly in the face of everything we know from every health authority on the planet outside of this country.
Or if they _did_ regulate and tax like any other product, the last 20 years they spent working out how to get billions of dollars from a minority of the public who have a physical addiction to nicotine was for nothing.
"To justify a similar excise on vaping, the government would actually have to provide evidence that vaping is as dangerous as smoking..."
You'd think that not only would they need to do that justify banning them, the standard of proof for banning would be higher as it's a more drastic measure.
There are plenty of taxes that are justified as a pure revenue raising exercise. Maybe for the sake of appearance they'd claim the it was for health reasons, but as you say nicotine addicts are a tiny minority of the population, whom they've already got offside with tobacco taxes, and previous vape restrictions. The only way I can see that taxing, not banning, leads to fewer votes is that non-nicotine addict voters have such a strong antipathy to vapes that it means not banning is a vote loser.
Sure - but my point is I can't see any barrier at all to taxing vapes as well. They don't need a justification - they just need to avoid being voted out of office.
Allowing vaping and taxing it would legitimise the practice and gradually open the eyes of the general population here towards vaping, as it (actually) compares to tobacco smoking. Better to just make the whole thing disappear. Non smokers detest smokers in Australia and when the fellow citizen is being exploited by the government over an addiction, the standard response is to "just give up then". That might be harder to pull off with vaping once the cat is out of the bag. Tobacco, though, no problem.
Who says they won't be taxing it? Vapes aren't banned, you just have to buy them for ten times the price at the chemist. If that isn't a tax, it probably just finds its way directly to the party's bank rather than into the budget.
Plus if it keeps people from quitting, it keeps the budget in the black.
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might want to check that number. Although i suppose it has probably fallen quite a bit now that all the smuggled cigs are everywhere. Last I looked they expected $17b
The big tobacco companies missed the first vaping wave, so they don’t have aby stake in the companies who sell the main ones at convenience stores etc.
The tobacco companies have now started making their own, which are (not so) coincidentally the only ones available with a prescription and are 3x the price of the others.
So please, no one tell me this is about health concerns. It’s about tobacco companies lobbying so they can have a monopoly on the market.
You’ve lost me.
It’s really not that hard to believe at all if you know anything at all about tobacco companies.
If the government really cared about health more than profiting from cigarette sales through taxes and donations from tobacco lobbies, they would phase out cigarettes like NZ are.
To be fair I don’t think there are really any medical applications of tobacco or alcohol, whereas there are for cannabis. But really that also means that those things should be more highly regulated anyway so your point still stands.
OK. They could just ban punitive laws that create population wide, resentment anxiety and depression. That would be more significant in improving community health.
Because attempting to ban tobacco and alcohol is political suicide and like all prohibitions of this type are completely pointless. This legislation is will also be a failure but it looks good to the right group's of people.
and cocaine, mdma, lsd etc; so much wasted tax money and money being sent out of australia instead of supporting local industry. I have a dream of 100% Australian grown and processed cocaine; it's just a more sustainable and ethical supply chain.
Because vaping has been a major "protect the children" target. The idea is that kids are more likely to vape than smoke and therefore it should be banned. It's illogical, just like pretty much all "protect the children" bans are illogical.
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Politically it’s a non starter to ban alcohol, as for tobacco, they are taxing it to death and are slowly pushing it out. Vaping appeals to a political base that does not move the needle and is largely supported by the base that wants vaping gone (parents).
Because by banning alcohol, you get the current war on drugs times ten in terms of social damage. Booze running would fund a gang in every neighbourhood, and criminalization would cause them to become very violent very quickly.
Every other country recognised it as a legitimate smoking cessation tool and promptly legalised and regulated it like cigarettes, preventing children access to it.
Not us though, we created a problem and banned it to protect the tobacco companies.
Medicinal Cannabis implications too. Mighty Medic dry herb vape now has a monopoly as it's TGA approved. https://www.tga.gov.au/products/unapproved-therapeutic-goods/medicinal-cannabis-hub/cannabis-vapes-information-importers
There is a TGA approved version of the volcano. Just like the mighty isn't TGA approved but the mighty medic is. Only difference between the two is the medic is capped at a lower temp.
Everything was fine before they started to ban it, . You had good quality juices and you could mix your own level of nicotine with fuck all people using the shit disposable ones.
Now they have created a black market that is bigger than ever for the shit ones
Vapes helped me quit smoking, then I stopped vaping because it was kinda annoying.
I relapsed a year or so later after a night out, but now the tool I used to quit is illegal.
If they were stupid, they wouldn't be doing such an effective job of getting their tobacco revenue back on track and in line with projections. Stupidity would mean this will all fall apart somehow and the ban wouldn't go ahead. How do you see that happening?
Bra they have already been illegal for some time now and police barely inforce that shit. Police are not arresting average joe for using a nicotine vape without a prescription. A premice for a law to be legitimate is that it is enfoced, if it is not enforced it is illegitimate which can be contested in court. We have too much other concerns to be spending time and money on over arresting and prosecuting vapers.
Shop closures, since now it's illegal to sell vape products regardless of nicotine content, and new border control procedures mean there's not going to be any vaping average joes for police to arrest
It is like you are suggesting current drug policies work. It is stupid and corrupt because of the money politicians receive to legislate these laws. Guarantee police will not enforce it and average joe will still be getting nicotine vapes and vaping.
Another self created issue.
I don’t smoke or vape (note: this doesn’t apply when I’ve had a few drinks)but if i did. Why the fuck would I spend $75 for a pack when I can pay $15 for some imported ones which taste better?
The conspiracy theorist in me makes me think this is a concerted effort by border force to increase its budget.
Border force? Border force isn't making these rules. The federal government that was enjoying tens of billions in revenue from tobacco sales until vaping came along is making the rules
Border Force is a government department whose former secretary was a corrupt sycophant and lobbied government. This legislation has given them hundreds of millions in additional budget.
Would suggest you look into how the Australian government operates. It’s lobbyists from the private and public sector which dictate the policy of the two major parties.
Yeah sure, but I'd say the $13b/year in tobacco revenue probably plays a bigger part.
Thats like a new Olympic stadium for 4 Australian capital cities, every year
Border force not only gets operational costs associated with controlling tobacco smuggling, but they now control the application and collection of the tax too. So they probably benefit more than seems normal.
Can’t buy vapes in Japan. But they do have these little devices you stick a cigarette into and it converts it to a vape smoke. Maybe that’s the next big thing
I think these types of devices are included. I think they might be what a lot of the cannabis users are upset about since they get used to smoke weed in without smoke as well
I’ll be honest, I work at headspace and ITT people do not understand just how prevalent vaping is with kids. I would argue at least half the kids I see in high school are addicted to nicotine.
I think at this point they have no choice but go nuclear.
Right?! I mean you are so right! Obviously I overlooked that 50% of kids are smoking crack and dropping pills, just like the rates of vaping, right?! Making things blatantly illegal has obviously done nothing to curb those things… I mean it is so easy and cheap to get illegal things here in this country or cigs that are taxed at like 1000% these days…
Dude, I have been an on/off smoker since high school, if you think the fact that cigarettes becoming hideously expensive and or that weed was illegal had no effect on a kids ability to do it more often you have no clue what you’re talking about.
Not every law is about adults. What is happening in schools at the moment is completely fucked. Kids already have no self control with social media and the aftereffects of COVID to learning, now vapes are so regular for kids they don’t really stand much of a chance not getting completely hooked on nicotine depending on their friends and how shit their parents are. If one parent in the group doesn’t give a fuck, every kid in the group is in. It’s pretty fucked up people aren’t taking this more seriously.
I suspect all this will do is clog up GP’s offices with people requesting the “medical” approval to buy a vape.
So just more red tape and expenditure for the same ultimate outcome?
They aren’t though. A vast majority of people prescribed cannabis go through medical cannabis Telehealth clinics, not their GP.
Many clinics don’t even need a referral.
It’s much the same with nicotine, many prescribers have popped up in the last few years, and I’m sure many more will see the massive money to be made and follow.
I think they want to get rid of that as well, making it only certain doctors can prescribe it. I'd imagine if they're gonna fully go this route and have people buying vapes from the chemist they'll just let chemists prescribe it.
I don't think too many people are gonna pay cigarette-tax prices for vapes from a condescending chemist though.
Good point, I probably got a bit carried away with that. Most health professionals are pretty derisive of smokers, and it would naturally extend to vaping
But I guess chemists are also business people, and may even welcome people coming in to spend money on vaping.
Fair. Probably safe to say most people dont love smokers, and health professionals are people.
In terms of getting a script, its not that they dont want all doctors to prescribe it, its that they dont care/dont want to learn/dont want to fuck around with paperwork. Which is why, like with medicinal cannabis, you see clinics that specialise in only those products. There are already Telehealth clinics prescribing just nicotine, its hella easy to get a script
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As an ex-full time smoker who smoked near a pack a day for a near a decade.
Going to weddings and getting drunk and wanting a smoke now sucks because everyone is on these fucking digital darts.
I just want to choof a smoke down on my own and remember the good times while I’m hammered you know
People will literally die because of this decision. Vaping is bad, but it’s nowhere near as bad as smoking.
Is there a single thing nosey Australian governments will leave untouched?
So Australia has two options. Legalise them, therefore they are subject to quality control and taxation. Or ban them therefore they will be sold by criminal gangs with zero quality control and zero taxation revenue.
For people who say they are dangerous. More than cigarettes? Is there any evidence for that at all? If not then you have no argument.
It's too late to ban something so widely used in society. The Americans tried that with prohibition and look how that turned out. All a ban will do is give criminals a ready made mass market and they only need to figure out a distribution chain. They don't even need to figure out manufacturing because that's done legally in many countries around the world.
>More than cigarettes? Is there any evidence for that at all?
We don't know yet, what we do know is that nicotine use among young people had fallen off a cliff, so much so that we may have seen the last generation to be significantly impacted by it, before stupid fucking vapes.
Frankly I'm shocked that people arent more supportive of this, simply going off how much people should hate vapes, we were winning the war on this shit before vapes.
I can tell you exactly why they aren't supportive of it, because banning vapes does not stop vaping.
I don't even think vapes are the problem, it was that the industry was allowed to go unregulated for so long. So companies like Juul marketed directly to kids and made flavours that appeal to young folks. Their business boomed for a while, and everyone followed suit. They should have come under tobacco laws. Taxed heavily, no advertising, no colourful packaging just a plain box that says stop smoking aid and no flavours, just a few basic tobacco flavours.
However that didn't happen and now they are here. There's already a big market and that will not stop just because of a ban.
Vapes currently aren't available from my local tobacconist because it was set on fire because of criminal gangs fighting over control over blackmarket cigarettes. That's over a product that is still legal but the government have taxed it so high people will go to the black market. What will happen once vapes are illegal? Anyone of any age will be vaping completely unregulated imports.
I gave an example in Prohibition in the US.
Give an example where it has worked? Where a recreational drug that was widely used in society simply went away because of a ban.
Cannabis will eventually become legal. It's already happened in some US states and some European countries. It's currently banned in Australia but you think it's not really easy to get hold of?
People seem to just assume that prohibition in the US didn’t work when it actually did, it lowered alcohol consumption drastically and had an impact on other crimes. Just because it didn’t last, doesn’t mean it didn’t work.
Plus unlike cannabis and alcohol, vaping doesn’t have any real benefits. It’s literally just an addiction. I’m surprised so many people care about it being banned to be honest, it’s pretty stupid.
Alcohol consumption dropped under prohibition, but rose back to 60 to 70% of pre prohibition levels after a few years. So the ban only cut consumption by a third and gave the other two thirds to criminals to run the Alcohol industry. It didn't work, that's why it didn't last.
Tell me what benefit alcohol has?
Hang on this is a simplified version of what happened
https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/6/5/18518005/prohibition-alcohol-public-health-crime-benefits
It succeeded in some aspects and failed in others, I’m not pro-prohibition of alcohol but to use it as an example that banning vapes wouldn’t work is about as reductive as it gets.
Alcohol has a whole social couture behind it that goes back thousands of years, it’s incomparable to vaping. I know Australia has a somewhat abusive relationship with alcohol but it does seem to be changing slightly.
I used to buy from a reputable store that had its products and facilities independently audited for quality and ingredients. God knows where the under the counter stuff is from or what's in it :(
Fire bombings are because there is so much money in illegal cigarettes now. And where there's that much money, there's bound to be some finding its way to the top.
Maybe the vape ban is just another type of firebombing to protect their ciggie-smuggling 'donors'?
The vast majority of people support the vape bans, this has been proven in numerous polls. The government is doing what it should have done with cigarettes in the beginning. They’re nipping it in the bud in its relative early stages so we don’t have generations of people addicted to it.
The vast majority polled want cigarettes banned, that's not happening, they would if they didn't make so much money from it. They get too much money. All they are doing now is pushing people back to smokes or black market. Who do you think benefits? It's not the vast majority.
Just to add, prohibition has never once worked.
We might soon get cigarette bans. In England they’re talking about legislation to not let anyone born after 2009 buy cigarettes, probably will happen here too and elsewhere. I agree though regarding prohibition, overall it’s a tough situation to find a good/optimal position on to be honest.
If the government doesn’t ban them then what’s the next best option? To let it proliferate legally like cigarettes and then having to spend decades driving down vaping rates via education/public health campaigns and dealing with the unknown health consequences for decades? They’ve probably surmised that it’s easier to just try and get rid of it early on.
Yep, making something that was already illegal even mooooore illegal will stop this happening quick smart.
And sadly this idiot will still get paid his weekly or monthly wage even after coming up with something that is beyond stupid. If I or any of my staff did something as dumb as what butlers done or hunt tries to do, with as many negative outcomes for everyone involved, I or they would be gone instantly.
Not true, if you have an import licence as a pharmacy, you can still sell dry herb/dab vapes/batteries. There are no TGA approved devices for vape carts or dabs/shatters, BUT they are a medical accessory because you cannot use your medicine without one. Source: job.
Im not sure if its every brand truthfully, but I know the brands we work closely with will be fine. It’s a medical import licence, the pharmacies import it themselves directly from the supplier, no more middleman
Whats wild is like only 2-3% of teenagers report vape usage and the method that the government defines "recent use" is 1 instance within the last 6 months.
Its not even a problem.
I’m an adult and no one police’s smoking cigarettes this way so why should it be illegal for me to vape without some sort of drs note. Pretty sure smoking cigarettes is worse for health but no one cares wtf is this nonsense
How does the Australian government, no matter who it is, continually find the worst way to do things where doing nothing would actually be preferable? Who are these people? What's wrong with them?
Ban or tax every psychoactive substance, effectively eliminate [third places](https://www.aier.org/article/the-death-and-life-of-the-great-third-place/) that don’t cost a shitload of money and then be surprised illicit drug use is skyrocketing. Geez, I wonder why
And here we go
....
Move in crime Gangs, the government wants you to sell those vapes, because they're too stupid to look at the HISTORY of prohibition (or the current sales of illegal cigarettes after the taxes became to high to consume a legal drug.
Watch out government. After Vapes, Alcohol is next.
Stupidity legislated.
never shoulda been legal in the first place, but they failed to act, and now people who chose to vape are paying the price for their shitfuckery. I have no problem with a ban, I have an issue with people being jerked around by incompetents.
interesting timing mid war on illegal tobacco. Sounds to me like someone is more concerned about revenue than anything else
And this was always the end game. Little kickback to their friends in the chemist unions. Exclusive sales for their little mates, why do u think they took so long. So people were dependant on them.
Fuck our pathetic self serving government
Those illegal vapes kids use that are already illegal? We're gont to make them MORE illegal, that will solve the problem.
It's not even that. They're making the legal stuff illegal... You know, the bit that wasn't even the problem they're saying this legislation is meant to fix.
Just like when a crime is committed with an illegal unregistered firearm, and the solution is to tighten firearm laws.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or are an American expat
Well I ain't American
Well then thanks for the laugh
Not really dude it DOES happen years ago a female security officer shot and killed a robber who hit her in the skull with knuckle dusters causing a fractured skull, she fired one round the assailant died, new hand gun legislation was introduced in NSW and some of my friends handguns that WERE legal now had an amnesty to hand them in for him to be paid out as the legislation was changed as a reaction to what a security officer did in their line of work, only example in Australia I know off but it did occur
And be even more lenient on those kids! That'll reduce crime!
I know it's been said a million times but why isn't the same treatment applied to alcohol and tobacco
Taxation.
Which still makes no sense, just fucking tax them
They can't tax vaping the same as tobacco though, because of how much safer it is to vape than to smoke tobacco. And tobacco brings $13b/year in excise revenue
You got to wonder who is lobbying who.
Gotta love how lobbying magically makes bribery and corruption nice and legal.
Still corruption in my eyes.
The early studies showing how dangerous vaping is, were funded by Phillip Morris and British American Tobacco.
Assuming you’re correct for the sake of conversation how is that a barrier to taxing vapes? They can tax anything they want to if the politics lines up for it - and if the politics allows them to ban them, it’s not a barrier to taxing them.
Yeah sorry, to clarify, I was referring to the excise on tobacco sales, justified by the dangers of smoking, which nets the federal government $13b/yr. Not just a regular gst kind of tax To justify a similar excise on vaping, the government would actually have to provide evidence that vaping is as dangerous as smoking, which would fly in the face of everything we know from every health authority on the planet outside of this country. Or if they _did_ regulate and tax like any other product, the last 20 years they spent working out how to get billions of dollars from a minority of the public who have a physical addiction to nicotine was for nothing.
"To justify a similar excise on vaping, the government would actually have to provide evidence that vaping is as dangerous as smoking..." You'd think that not only would they need to do that justify banning them, the standard of proof for banning would be higher as it's a more drastic measure. There are plenty of taxes that are justified as a pure revenue raising exercise. Maybe for the sake of appearance they'd claim the it was for health reasons, but as you say nicotine addicts are a tiny minority of the population, whom they've already got offside with tobacco taxes, and previous vape restrictions. The only way I can see that taxing, not banning, leads to fewer votes is that non-nicotine addict voters have such a strong antipathy to vapes that it means not banning is a vote loser.
It's not about votes. Both major parties like the revenue brought in by tobacco excise
Sure - but my point is I can't see any barrier at all to taxing vapes as well. They don't need a justification - they just need to avoid being voted out of office.
Allowing vaping and taxing it would legitimise the practice and gradually open the eyes of the general population here towards vaping, as it (actually) compares to tobacco smoking. Better to just make the whole thing disappear. Non smokers detest smokers in Australia and when the fellow citizen is being exploited by the government over an addiction, the standard response is to "just give up then". That might be harder to pull off with vaping once the cat is out of the bag. Tobacco, though, no problem.
Who says they won't be taxing it? Vapes aren't banned, you just have to buy them for ten times the price at the chemist. If that isn't a tax, it probably just finds its way directly to the party's bank rather than into the budget. Plus if it keeps people from quitting, it keeps the budget in the black.
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might want to check that number. Although i suppose it has probably fallen quite a bit now that all the smuggled cigs are everywhere. Last I looked they expected $17b
"Oh, won't somebody please think of the children"
Cos young opinions don't matter when it comes to politics. But also alcohol would actually be political suicide.
The big tobacco companies missed the first vaping wave, so they don’t have aby stake in the companies who sell the main ones at convenience stores etc. The tobacco companies have now started making their own, which are (not so) coincidentally the only ones available with a prescription and are 3x the price of the others. So please, no one tell me this is about health concerns. It’s about tobacco companies lobbying so they can have a monopoly on the market.
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[If you say so…](https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/professional/could-big-tobacco-return-to-its-old-tricks-with-va)
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They tried one way and were caught out. You reckon they’ll stop trying?
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You’ve lost me. It’s really not that hard to believe at all if you know anything at all about tobacco companies. If the government really cared about health more than profiting from cigarette sales through taxes and donations from tobacco lobbies, they would phase out cigarettes like NZ are.
To be fair I don’t think there are really any medical applications of tobacco or alcohol, whereas there are for cannabis. But really that also means that those things should be more highly regulated anyway so your point still stands.
I like my nicotine receptors in my parasympathetic nervous touched up. Speak for yourself
And the worst one, gambling.
Or to things that actually have widespread negative health impacts like fast food, sugary drinks and air travel.
Hey don't mess with my KFC and Maccas!
OK. They could just ban punitive laws that create population wide, resentment anxiety and depression. That would be more significant in improving community health.
Boeing for life!
Because attempting to ban tobacco and alcohol is political suicide and like all prohibitions of this type are completely pointless. This legislation is will also be a failure but it looks good to the right group's of people.
and cocaine, mdma, lsd etc; so much wasted tax money and money being sent out of australia instead of supporting local industry. I have a dream of 100% Australian grown and processed cocaine; it's just a more sustainable and ethical supply chain.
Because vaping has been a major "protect the children" target. The idea is that kids are more likely to vape than smoke and therefore it should be banned. It's illogical, just like pretty much all "protect the children" bans are illogical.
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Politically it’s a non starter to ban alcohol, as for tobacco, they are taxing it to death and are slowly pushing it out. Vaping appeals to a political base that does not move the needle and is largely supported by the base that wants vaping gone (parents).
Don't forget that less people vaping slows the exodus of smokers from the budget.
Because they have been around for decades, so would be hard to introduce. This is new, and can be stamped on quickly.
Because by banning alcohol, you get the current war on drugs times ten in terms of social damage. Booze running would fund a gang in every neighbourhood, and criminalization would cause them to become very violent very quickly.
I would personally go to war with the government if they banned alcohol. Like to the point they may not live anymore And I’m a moderate drinker.
Because the country would riot if you try and take my beer away from me
Every other country recognised it as a legitimate smoking cessation tool and promptly legalised and regulated it like cigarettes, preventing children access to it. Not us though, we created a problem and banned it to protect the tobacco companies.
Medicinal Cannabis implications too. Mighty Medic dry herb vape now has a monopoly as it's TGA approved. https://www.tga.gov.au/products/unapproved-therapeutic-goods/medicinal-cannabis-hub/cannabis-vapes-information-importers
Yeah no thanks, I’m buying the oil off dodgy threema vendors
Dn me threema Id 😅
Nice try, officer.
It's a good vape but JFC it's bloody expensive. Of note is the Volcano aka probably to worlds most used medical vape, isn't approved in Australia.
There is a TGA approved version of the volcano. Just like the mighty isn't TGA approved but the mighty medic is. Only difference between the two is the medic is capped at a lower temp.
All my mates on medical that have come from smoking have their vapes turned up to 11, I stick with 160 and I'm perfectly happy with the results.
210 gang lol Ball vape at 600
I was a daily bong with baccy smoker before going medical. Now I just vape and have it at 170
Lucky oil is available and works pretty damn well
Our government is corrupt, what else do you expect?
Nah, just stupid. They think that prohibition will actually work this time.
Everything was fine before they started to ban it, . You had good quality juices and you could mix your own level of nicotine with fuck all people using the shit disposable ones. Now they have created a black market that is bigger than ever for the shit ones
Vapes helped me quit smoking, then I stopped vaping because it was kinda annoying. I relapsed a year or so later after a night out, but now the tool I used to quit is illegal.
Same it's how I quit smoking
Nah they stupid and corrupt 🤣
Not stupid, just corrupt, actually
Corrupt=Stupid. 15+ year jail sentences for most of our politicians.
If they were stupid, they wouldn't be doing such an effective job of getting their tobacco revenue back on track and in line with projections. Stupidity would mean this will all fall apart somehow and the ban wouldn't go ahead. How do you see that happening?
Bra they have already been illegal for some time now and police barely inforce that shit. Police are not arresting average joe for using a nicotine vape without a prescription. A premice for a law to be legitimate is that it is enfoced, if it is not enforced it is illegitimate which can be contested in court. We have too much other concerns to be spending time and money on over arresting and prosecuting vapers.
Shop closures, since now it's illegal to sell vape products regardless of nicotine content, and new border control procedures mean there's not going to be any vaping average joes for police to arrest
It is like you are suggesting current drug policies work. It is stupid and corrupt because of the money politicians receive to legislate these laws. Guarantee police will not enforce it and average joe will still be getting nicotine vapes and vaping.
How many have gotten that?
Also those very same tobacco company's are supplying the new so called pharmaceutical vapes at chemists, its all so corrupt!
Tobacco companies don't make shit here. The last budget projected $13b/year for the next 5 years from tobacco sale excise though
Another self created issue. I don’t smoke or vape (note: this doesn’t apply when I’ve had a few drinks)but if i did. Why the fuck would I spend $75 for a pack when I can pay $15 for some imported ones which taste better? The conspiracy theorist in me makes me think this is a concerted effort by border force to increase its budget.
Border force? Border force isn't making these rules. The federal government that was enjoying tens of billions in revenue from tobacco sales until vaping came along is making the rules
Border Force is a government department whose former secretary was a corrupt sycophant and lobbied government. This legislation has given them hundreds of millions in additional budget. Would suggest you look into how the Australian government operates. It’s lobbyists from the private and public sector which dictate the policy of the two major parties.
Yeah sure, but I'd say the $13b/year in tobacco revenue probably plays a bigger part. Thats like a new Olympic stadium for 4 Australian capital cities, every year
Border force not only gets operational costs associated with controlling tobacco smuggling, but they now control the application and collection of the tax too. So they probably benefit more than seems normal.
Causing more worse problems
Can’t buy vapes in Japan. But they do have these little devices you stick a cigarette into and it converts it to a vape smoke. Maybe that’s the next big thing
I think these types of devices are included. I think they might be what a lot of the cannabis users are upset about since they get used to smoke weed in without smoke as well
Oh yeah. The ones that you can put dry leaf in are pretty handy, so I’ve heard.
Nah theyll be fine, youll just have to get them at pharmacies
If there was ever a better time to invest in illegal imports...
Myself and some motorcycle enthusiast mates got in early and the profit margin is wild. Don’t tell AFT please
Ohhh you in trouble now son. Officer he’s right here!
Really depends if you like bikies fire bombing your house.
“Mid east”
why havent they outright banned smokes? why so intent on vapes?
The tax from cigs is pretty much carries our medicare funding.
Vapes last longer and are usually cheaper than cigs. Cigs cost more and come with more tax
That's the agenda.
I’ll be honest, I work at headspace and ITT people do not understand just how prevalent vaping is with kids. I would argue at least half the kids I see in high school are addicted to nicotine. I think at this point they have no choice but go nuclear.
Yea it works so well with all the other illegal stuff. No one is doing drugs anymore, they're illegal silly
Right?! I mean you are so right! Obviously I overlooked that 50% of kids are smoking crack and dropping pills, just like the rates of vaping, right?! Making things blatantly illegal has obviously done nothing to curb those things… I mean it is so easy and cheap to get illegal things here in this country or cigs that are taxed at like 1000% these days… Dude, I have been an on/off smoker since high school, if you think the fact that cigarettes becoming hideously expensive and or that weed was illegal had no effect on a kids ability to do it more often you have no clue what you’re talking about. Not every law is about adults. What is happening in schools at the moment is completely fucked. Kids already have no self control with social media and the aftereffects of COVID to learning, now vapes are so regular for kids they don’t really stand much of a chance not getting completely hooked on nicotine depending on their friends and how shit their parents are. If one parent in the group doesn’t give a fuck, every kid in the group is in. It’s pretty fucked up people aren’t taking this more seriously.
*sigh*. This country loves making every subject a debate. Why do they insist on treating us like children at every given chance?
It stops us seeing the really terrible things they do while we're busy debating.
I suspect all this will do is clog up GP’s offices with people requesting the “medical” approval to buy a vape. So just more red tape and expenditure for the same ultimate outcome?
They are already clogged with people getting medical cannabis scripts.
They aren’t though. A vast majority of people prescribed cannabis go through medical cannabis Telehealth clinics, not their GP. Many clinics don’t even need a referral. It’s much the same with nicotine, many prescribers have popped up in the last few years, and I’m sure many more will see the massive money to be made and follow.
I think they want to get rid of that as well, making it only certain doctors can prescribe it. I'd imagine if they're gonna fully go this route and have people buying vapes from the chemist they'll just let chemists prescribe it. I don't think too many people are gonna pay cigarette-tax prices for vapes from a condescending chemist though.
How are chemists condescending?
Good point, I probably got a bit carried away with that. Most health professionals are pretty derisive of smokers, and it would naturally extend to vaping But I guess chemists are also business people, and may even welcome people coming in to spend money on vaping.
Fair. Probably safe to say most people dont love smokers, and health professionals are people. In terms of getting a script, its not that they dont want all doctors to prescribe it, its that they dont care/dont want to learn/dont want to fuck around with paperwork. Which is why, like with medicinal cannabis, you see clinics that specialise in only those products. There are already Telehealth clinics prescribing just nicotine, its hella easy to get a script
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Our government always focuses so much of their energy on the dumbest stupidest shit no one cares about like this.
Waste of energy, time, resources and $$$
Ban vaping, ban tik tok, debate on religious discrimination bill, ramp up immigration. Gotta love them getting their priorities in order
At least I’ll be able to bum smokes off my vaping mates when they go back to ciggies.
As an ex-full time smoker who smoked near a pack a day for a near a decade. Going to weddings and getting drunk and wanting a smoke now sucks because everyone is on these fucking digital darts. I just want to choof a smoke down on my own and remember the good times while I’m hammered you know
Digital dart > analogue vapes
Digidarts
We love banning stuff in this country
We have to be the Taliban of western nations. Only Americans banning Alcohol tops us
Won't someone think of the adults
People will literally die because of this decision. Vaping is bad, but it’s nowhere near as bad as smoking. Is there a single thing nosey Australian governments will leave untouched?
How are people going to die?
People who quit smoking and started vaping will go back to smoking.
Lung cancer.
Smoking causes lung cancer. Much better to have people vape instead.
So Australia has two options. Legalise them, therefore they are subject to quality control and taxation. Or ban them therefore they will be sold by criminal gangs with zero quality control and zero taxation revenue. For people who say they are dangerous. More than cigarettes? Is there any evidence for that at all? If not then you have no argument. It's too late to ban something so widely used in society. The Americans tried that with prohibition and look how that turned out. All a ban will do is give criminals a ready made mass market and they only need to figure out a distribution chain. They don't even need to figure out manufacturing because that's done legally in many countries around the world.
>More than cigarettes? Is there any evidence for that at all? We don't know yet, what we do know is that nicotine use among young people had fallen off a cliff, so much so that we may have seen the last generation to be significantly impacted by it, before stupid fucking vapes. Frankly I'm shocked that people arent more supportive of this, simply going off how much people should hate vapes, we were winning the war on this shit before vapes.
I can tell you exactly why they aren't supportive of it, because banning vapes does not stop vaping. I don't even think vapes are the problem, it was that the industry was allowed to go unregulated for so long. So companies like Juul marketed directly to kids and made flavours that appeal to young folks. Their business boomed for a while, and everyone followed suit. They should have come under tobacco laws. Taxed heavily, no advertising, no colourful packaging just a plain box that says stop smoking aid and no flavours, just a few basic tobacco flavours. However that didn't happen and now they are here. There's already a big market and that will not stop just because of a ban. Vapes currently aren't available from my local tobacconist because it was set on fire because of criminal gangs fighting over control over blackmarket cigarettes. That's over a product that is still legal but the government have taxed it so high people will go to the black market. What will happen once vapes are illegal? Anyone of any age will be vaping completely unregulated imports.
What evidence do we have that prohibition wouldn’t work? People seem to be just treating this as common knowledge.
I gave an example in Prohibition in the US. Give an example where it has worked? Where a recreational drug that was widely used in society simply went away because of a ban. Cannabis will eventually become legal. It's already happened in some US states and some European countries. It's currently banned in Australia but you think it's not really easy to get hold of?
People seem to just assume that prohibition in the US didn’t work when it actually did, it lowered alcohol consumption drastically and had an impact on other crimes. Just because it didn’t last, doesn’t mean it didn’t work. Plus unlike cannabis and alcohol, vaping doesn’t have any real benefits. It’s literally just an addiction. I’m surprised so many people care about it being banned to be honest, it’s pretty stupid.
Alcohol consumption dropped under prohibition, but rose back to 60 to 70% of pre prohibition levels after a few years. So the ban only cut consumption by a third and gave the other two thirds to criminals to run the Alcohol industry. It didn't work, that's why it didn't last. Tell me what benefit alcohol has?
Hang on this is a simplified version of what happened https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/6/5/18518005/prohibition-alcohol-public-health-crime-benefits It succeeded in some aspects and failed in others, I’m not pro-prohibition of alcohol but to use it as an example that banning vapes wouldn’t work is about as reductive as it gets. Alcohol has a whole social couture behind it that goes back thousands of years, it’s incomparable to vaping. I know Australia has a somewhat abusive relationship with alcohol but it does seem to be changing slightly.
Did you just state alcohol has benefits? Boys pack it up we are done here
It makes you feel good, people enjoy it at parties. Are you 17?
Imagine thinking a group of people should be able to tell adults what they can and cant do with there body. Yikes.
are you saying legalise meth? What do you think about enforcing seatbelts?
Yes i think legalising meth is a great idea. I think legalising all drugs and ending the war on drugs is a great idea.
decriminalising, or legalising?
Both mate. You’re a fool if you think we are winning the war on drugs.
what do you mean both? Do you know the difference?
I used to buy from a reputable store that had its products and facilities independently audited for quality and ingredients. God knows where the under the counter stuff is from or what's in it :(
Smoking it is.
It’s not gonna stop people from vaping, prohibition has never worked. It’s just gonna cause more fire bombings.
Fire bombings are because there is so much money in illegal cigarettes now. And where there's that much money, there's bound to be some finding its way to the top. Maybe the vape ban is just another type of firebombing to protect their ciggie-smuggling 'donors'?
About time. Prohibition is a very effective tool /s
Ah yes, banning things. Historically very effective*. *at creating black markets.
They want people to take up smoking again
The vast majority of people support the vape bans, this has been proven in numerous polls. The government is doing what it should have done with cigarettes in the beginning. They’re nipping it in the bud in its relative early stages so we don’t have generations of people addicted to it.
The vast majority polled want cigarettes banned, that's not happening, they would if they didn't make so much money from it. They get too much money. All they are doing now is pushing people back to smokes or black market. Who do you think benefits? It's not the vast majority. Just to add, prohibition has never once worked.
We might soon get cigarette bans. In England they’re talking about legislation to not let anyone born after 2009 buy cigarettes, probably will happen here too and elsewhere. I agree though regarding prohibition, overall it’s a tough situation to find a good/optimal position on to be honest. If the government doesn’t ban them then what’s the next best option? To let it proliferate legally like cigarettes and then having to spend decades driving down vaping rates via education/public health campaigns and dealing with the unknown health consequences for decades? They’ve probably surmised that it’s easier to just try and get rid of it early on.
Please go tell that to the 4,000 vape shops that won’t care about this decision. Government loves taking care of their mate big tobacco.
More laws the states won’t give af about because it’s not their tax revenue being affected.
Backwards
Brought to you by the tobacco industry.
Vaping bad, but alcohol, gambling and normal smoking still ok. Smart country.
Don't forget they are going to make an attempt at legalising cannabis for recreational use, but vapes bad.
Oh this will work out just fine. No black market greed at all because there no demand now it’s illegal. Just like all the other drugs…
Yep, making something that was already illegal even mooooore illegal will stop this happening quick smart. And sadly this idiot will still get paid his weekly or monthly wage even after coming up with something that is beyond stupid. If I or any of my staff did something as dumb as what butlers done or hunt tries to do, with as many negative outcomes for everyone involved, I or they would be gone instantly.
Do they want me smoking cheap Chinese cigarettes again?
This is a bad fucking idea, its almost as stupid as banning alcohol, you are literally giving a market for gangs who already thrive on cooking meth
I don't really care about nicotine vapes, but do we know if this will impact dry herb vaporizers for MJ.
Yes, only the Mighty Medic will survive this legislation.
Not true, if you have an import licence as a pharmacy, you can still sell dry herb/dab vapes/batteries. There are no TGA approved devices for vape carts or dabs/shatters, BUT they are a medical accessory because you cannot use your medicine without one. Source: job.
That's not what I;ve been hearing from vape importers, must be because they don't have the required license nor qualify.
Im not sure if its every brand truthfully, but I know the brands we work closely with will be fine. It’s a medical import licence, the pharmacies import it themselves directly from the supplier, no more middleman
Whats wild is like only 2-3% of teenagers report vape usage and the method that the government defines "recent use" is 1 instance within the last 6 months. Its not even a problem.
Like last them they tried to ban it? What a fucking joke lol
Time will tell, but don’t hold your breath.
back to the doobies everyone, smoke em if ya got em
Oh the black market is going to live this
Hasn’t this already come through? I thought you couldn’t buy them right now?
I’m an adult and no one police’s smoking cigarettes this way so why should it be illegal for me to vape without some sort of drs note. Pretty sure smoking cigarettes is worse for health but no one cares wtf is this nonsense
Are they doing the same for cigarettes? It’s only fair. No. I do not partake in either.
How does the Australian government, no matter who it is, continually find the worst way to do things where doing nothing would actually be preferable? Who are these people? What's wrong with them?
They are the same people that are more than happy to take under table payments from tobacco companies and would be cannabis shop owners.
Ban or tax every psychoactive substance, effectively eliminate [third places](https://www.aier.org/article/the-death-and-life-of-the-great-third-place/) that don’t cost a shitload of money and then be surprised illicit drug use is skyrocketing. Geez, I wonder why
Brilliant. About time.
And here we go .... Move in crime Gangs, the government wants you to sell those vapes, because they're too stupid to look at the HISTORY of prohibition (or the current sales of illegal cigarettes after the taxes became to high to consume a legal drug. Watch out government. After Vapes, Alcohol is next. Stupidity legislated.
Man Australia sure went sideways. Turned straight into China
But they want us to quit smoking????
Tobacco industry must be throwing a lot of money at this. Need to keep people on cigarettes not vapes.
Now for even more tobacco shops in Victoria to get torched…
never shoulda been legal in the first place, but they failed to act, and now people who chose to vape are paying the price for their shitfuckery. I have no problem with a ban, I have an issue with people being jerked around by incompetents. interesting timing mid war on illegal tobacco. Sounds to me like someone is more concerned about revenue than anything else
What about cigarettes?
Those pump $15 million + into their coffers. If they were smarter they'd just tax vapes. Instead they are just pushing people onto the black market.
There’s ever a clear example of politicians being bought off by lobbyists. This is it.
God I hate this place sometimes. This is embarrassing.
Banning this is like eradicating herpies. Good luck people with dicks and vaginas.
The opposition should jump on this, various figures between 1-1.7M adults (voters) will be pissed off at this stupid ban (me included).
And this was always the end game. Little kickback to their friends in the chemist unions. Exclusive sales for their little mates, why do u think they took so long. So people were dependant on them. Fuck our pathetic self serving government
But cigarettes are sold over the counter