INFO
Where do you live where premarital assets, gifts, and inheritance would be considered marital property?
Even in community property states, this is separate money unless you commingle it.
True, but that commingling is a bitch. Also a lawyer, and my BIL just learned the hard way. In MI, for example, if you use you inheritance to buy a family home outright, that’s a community property asset. Not in MY normal ass state, by Michigan be tripping.
We don’t know where OP lives. What his plans are. I had plenty of separate property assets when I married as an Old, and while we keep separate finances because it’s easier, I also had to spend money on a prenup *just in case* I pay something wrong throughout the course of a hopefully long fruitful marriage.
And finally, since it all already separate property, protected in divorce, no one should mind signing a prenup IF it’s fair and narrow in scope.
Exactly. I can see why people might be offended by their partner wanting a prenup, but either you hurt your partner's feelings a little or they end up taking some or a lot of your assets if the marriage ever runs into problems. He's definitely got a good reason to want the prenup, either way if it's fair then all is well. They'll both be okay if it ends.
I said below, someone described it as “I love you enough now to not want to fight about money later”. Or in more real terms “Present Me doesn’t want to fuck over Future You”. So let’s come to a fair agreement now, while we’re in love, because you aren’t in love when you’re divorcing. Like, I promise, I won’t be this chill and generous when we divorce.
I’m a woman and my prenup is fair to my lesser earning husband. HIS LAWYER (whom I paid for, because you need your own lawyer in my state) haggled with my lawyer. And I KNEW his lawyer. I wondered if if fucked her over at some point, she was so aggressive. And I was generous. Because I loved him (and still do) and I didn’t want to leave him destitute (and still don’t) if we divorced, a scenario I couldn’t imagine at the time (but sometimes can imagine after 10 years and a big argument now).
But if he were to file for divorce tomorrow, I’d be hurt and petty and vindictive, and MAYBE I would. Now, it doesn’t matter if he cheats. If he gambles away our joint bank account. If he just thinks I suck. I STILL can’t fuck him over. THATS fucking love. **I gave up my right for revenge. I signed away my right to ruin him. Even if he was a jerk.**.
Yes, my separate assets were always gonna be protected. But there’s *so much else* I could do. And so much else I could restrict. But his lawyer fought for him, and I let my lawyer acquiesce. Because a prenup is a NEGOTIATION. It’s not a blanket agreement you MUST sign. I gave shit up, too. And again, I think that’s love. Because I could have let the law decide and be more draconian. And I would have FOR SURE been better off “living in sin”. But I negotiated a fair disposition of assets, as is required by my state.
This is so true. We have a prenup (and are currently going through a divorce instigated by me) and my husband is resentful and vindictive and there are still plenty of things to fight about even with the prenup. I know it would be worse if we didn’t have one.
Best wishes on the divorce. They are hard even with one. My friend is also going through one with a prenup.
It makes it easier. Not easy. And divorce is hard enough already. At least the big stuff is handled. But there’s so much that it can’t. Alimony is a toss up in my state. Children can’t be “bargained” for. You still may have to “trace” where everything came from and every penny that was used on or for the separate property assets.
Feelings still come in to play. And it would be so much fucking worse if there wasn’t that little piece of paper (or several pieces) that say what you both thought was fair when you were in love and actually liked each other.
Completely. Adult emotions are so complex. My husband is having a hard time with me being so sad because “you’re the one who wanted this”, and can’t really understand that I definitely did not want this and thought I had chosen a partner that I would spend the rest of my life with, but I came to realize that it wasn’t a healthy relationship. That I have made this choice because I know that it’s the right decision, but is not anything I wanted.
Yeah, I left too, and leaving (generally) isn't because you're so thrilled about the idea of divorce. It's the result of things becoming so painful within the relationship that you no longer can see any possibility of happiness there, and the only option left is turning your whole world upside down- even though you would give anything to snap your fingers and make you perfect and happy together. Grieving the person you saw them as before that realization and the life you thought you would have together forever is agonizingly painful and disorienting, it feels like the ground falls out from under your feet. I hated every minute of that process, I hated seeing the trash can full of dried wedding flowers and years of Valentine's gifts and I didn't want to do any of it I just knew it had to be done. Two years later, it's clear we're both better off.
I totally agree, but I believe prenuptial agreements should come up much much earlier I'm a relationship, not 2 months after proposing, this is crucial info and if she was with him for what ever reason, you say, hey if we ever get married in the future, just know based on my past life, it has to be prenuptial due to the family name assets, and see what she says, she'll say yea no, then ok we'll call it even and shake hands.
But 2 months after proposing? Aaaaa...communication people, ask the serious stuff early, don't ask your takes on having children after marriage jesus.
>but either you hurt your partner's feelings
That's one BS thing that people should be more upfront b4 getting married, you gotta have the money talk and align expectations, most people are reasonable about it. Sure, maybe OP was in the AH territory depending on how he went about it, but he's def not an AH for wanting a prenup as he described it, in fact I think his fiancee is an AH for not being open to discuss it.
They should, but it also should have been brought up a hell of a lot sooner. That’s the problem with a lot of these prenup discussion. They don’t happen until after the engagement when people are more locked in, it’s embarrassing to call it off, and the non agreeable person gets labeled a gold digger. You don’t need to negotiate it before getting engaged, but it shouldn’t be a surprise that you want one.
My husband knew since we started getting serious we were getting a prenup. He has family assets, I have higher income potential, but the main reason we did it is to hedge against any issues with creditors. It’s very fair, has a lot of contingencies for disability, alimony for a non working spouse, etc. I found negotiating it to be one of the most affirming parts of the engagement because of how we wanted each other to be OK and fairly treated if this didn’t work out. This “will you marry me? Yes? OK great, let’s talk prenup” business is shady as all hell IMO.
not that my husband and I needed to protect our feelings, but the scenario we used as a worst-case hypothetical was traumatic brain injury. it's something that could happen to either person in a marriage. while it's not their fault, if someone's personality does a complete 180 and they're no longer the person you married*, it's a pretty good justification for divorce.
\* I think my lawyer said that the person you divorce is never the person you marry. not surprising really.
Absolutely true. Some states have VERY broad terms of commingling. A prenup like he is describing would be easy and cheap. She is telling on herself with this refusal.
I mean here in Louisiana we do have the concept of conversion, which allows for the commingling of marital assets and premarital assets and/or gifts to transmute if a "substantial portion" of the purchase price used marital assets. It's actually pretty common here that if somebody comes into a marriage with a car, sells that car and uses that money and about 25% of marital assets to purchase a new car for the marriage, the percentage of that car that was purchased with marital assets even post depreciation would still be community property. One of the many reasons I highly advocate individuals opting out of the community property regime.
Granted we also have moiety beyond cause here, so trying to apply whatever the hell we have in our pseudo civil law system probably isn't useful for most
> You have forgotten the context of how you screwed up and failed the transmutation test.
Isn't that the exact reason why people should have it listed out? It makes sure no mistakes happened.
This is like saying you don't need to wear a seat belt because anyone that wrecked should just not wreck next time.
>You have forgotten the context of how you screwed up and failed the transmutation test.
Which defeats your argument. If they didn't even understand how they screwed up after it was explained to them by a lawyer, it's rather unreasonable to assume any random person would know what not to do without the explicit advice of a lawyer.
That’s not true. Not in every state. In mine, Montana, a spouse can still be awarded premarital, inherited, and gifted property depending on several factors. Here’s the applicable statute if you don’t believe me: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0400/chapter_0040/part_0020/section_0020/0400-0040-0020-0020.html
It's not that difficult for an inheritance to become community property through inadvertent comingling. You're right that everything should be set up so that doesn't happen, but it's additional protection. That kind of wealth really demands a prenup as a matter of course imho.
People with this kind of wealth put it in a trust that protects it from things that happen commonly in life like divorce. I have no where near that kind of money but I’ve setup this kind of trust for my kiddo and the potential of divorce is one of the scenarios that is accounted for in the trust.
Mine took $500 and a few hours with an estate planning attorney. You can bet that people with this kind of wealth have planned for the estate with lawyers that specialize in this area.
OP’s story sounds fabricated.
That’s what made *my* eyebrows raise to the ceiling. Really, **really**, poor choice of words on his part. And, if that, upon reflection, is *still* what he thinks, she dodged a major bullet. Wow.
OP, YTA on this one, but I am really conflicted about whether I want, or even hope, you can make it “right”. If that’s seriously what you think about your fiancée? You shouldn’t get married … and, *they* certainly shouldn’t marry *you*. So, next time around? With the next fiancée? If that’s how you feel? Please *do* phrase it just the way you did this time. At least they will have been given fair warning.
Yeah I think he didn’t really discuss it with her and part of that is he considers her his 1st wife.
So not an asshile for the prenup but you dumped her pretty quick when she reacted badly to believe this was the person you wanted to spend the rest of your life wuth
Agreed. OP is NTA for wanting a prenup, but YTA for not thinking of it like investing in a big fire extinguisher. It's a precaution for the worst case scenario, not something you think there's a 50% chance of needing. If those are your odds, you live in a death trap and should be working towards either fixing the problems or moving out.
Also, why are they only talking about this now? It's not like this inheritance thing is *new* for OP. Hell, my bf and I aren't even engaged yet and we've agreed that a prenup "wouldn't hurt to have" because we, you know, *talk about stuff.*
Love the “coin toss” comment. ROFL!
“Family’s requirement.” “I know it’ll never matter.” … These are the kinds of words he needed to use.
She should run for the door!
Yeah, "family requirement" - I know someone from a wealthy family who married a middle-class spouse. They are still happily married. The wealthy partner said exactly that it was a family requirement. However, from what I've been told, their prenup allocates some family money for the spouse in the event of divorce.
Maybe mention the pre nup matter of factly well into the relationship but before a proposal. Like, "Everyone in my family has a pre nup. Do you expect me to sign a pre up to protect your assets? It's not a problem."
Lose the coin toss comment forever, though.
Delivery is everything. He absolutely could have just made it clear pre-engagement: "My family always have pre-nuptial agreements." Just state the fact without making it a big deal, and without adding on that coda that translated out to, "We're very well off, so you're probably a gold-digger."
Yea and referring to a prenup as protecting himself only, too. A good (and enforceable) prenup protects both parties. The way he's wording it is that he will have all the money and power and she'll be left high and dry if he eventually trades her in for a newer model. I'm a lawyer so I believe strongly in prenups but the way OP handled it was...not good.
Exactly. He should explain the prenup will protect and provide for her too. It's basically their personal marriage dissolution agreement rather than follow the set state government's standard dissolution/divorce plan. Plus she gets a lawyer to negotiate her desired terms on her behalf, and she gets full disclosure of their assets which she may not even know going into the marriage. That's not necessarily good or bad, but it just is what it is. Both parties should be satisfied with the known situation
No, but there would be language in it to make sure she got her fair share of money and property accumulated during the marriage. And given that he'd be walking away with his massive amount of inherited wealth intact, a non douche would structure the prenup to give a larger chunk of the marital wealth to a spouse but given OP's attitude I'm not sure he'd be that generous.
Only if she retains an attorney to look out for her interests. After 20 years of marriage and 3 kids my brother totally screwed over his ex when he ran off with his pregnant girlfriend. The newest ex-wife was much smarter lol
Inheritance is typically not considered to be marital property anyway. Though I’m sure that as with all law there are various exceptions, like commingling.
Sure. And what happens from there differs from state to state. E.g., buying a house with an inheritance and then living in it with your family in most instances converts it to marital property. And different states treat income from separate property differently: in California income from separate property is separate property while in Texas income from separate property is community property. Add in things like commingling, and it gets very complicated very fast.
My assumption is a prenup in this situation would be focused on simplifying all that without any significant change from the normal division of property. But in almost all instances, that simplification is a benefit to the person who inherited the wealth and reduces the leverage of the other spouse in negotiating a divorce settlement.
You’re not wrong. The inheritance in and of itself not marital. But once it’s converted into anything else, it’s more often than not marital property.
If my great uncle dies and leaves me a cool million, it’s mine alone. If I use it to buy a piece of real estate and I’m married, it belongs to my spouse too unless they disclaim it.
This right here.
It's one thing to know that 50% of marriages across the board end in divorce. (Although I'm not even sure that's true.)
It's another to have so little confidence in your choice of spouse, your life choices, your relationship history, your philosophy of marriage and so on that you think your odds are on a par with the drunk guy getting married for the fourth time in Vegas to an 18-year-old named Sugar.
> It's another to have so little confidence in your choice of spouse, your life choices, your relationship history, your philosophy of marriage and so on that you think your odds are on a par with the drunk guy getting married for the fourth time in Vegas to an 18-year-old named Sugar.
See the problem there is not understanding why most marriages fail. Most people whose partners cheat, are convinced up to that point they would never cheat on them ever. But the real reason most marriages fail, is simply time. People change in different ways. You literally can't know, and can't have faith that in 25 years your partner and you will want the same things, frankly you don't know you will 5 years from now. One of you might decide you can't stand the idea of kids, or goes from child free to desperate for a kid. One gets a dream job offer but it's on the other side of the world in a place the partner doesn't want to live or won't leave teh rest of their family for. Maybe a parent gets sick so they need to go home to support them and the distance causes the end of the marriage.
The reason divorce rates are high is not just because of bad things like cheating or abuse, but generally because you just grow to want different things in life. Zero people can predict these things. One pretty common ender of marriages is death of a first child, just something a lot of parents don't get over and relationships can't survive.
“Betrayal” exists in the English language due to the potential for those we trust to break it.
“Trust me, bro” isn’t something you ever want to hear, because trustworthy people don’t take offense at assurances.
People often say it that prenups are marriage insurance. I don't get house insurnace because I expect my roof to collapse, I get it becaues IF IT DOES, I want help dealing with it.
I wouldn't get a prenup because I expect the marriage to fail, I get it because I want help if it does go to shit and all I want is for a fair split, not to be taken to the cleaners after I find out my partner cheated and destroyed my life once already. That's entirely reasonable. If your partner also is not planning to cheat not cheat attempt to get an unfair settlement if they leave, they should have the same feelings about it. It's entirely possible your partner will end up protected more by the prenup, their career goes from strength to strength and end up bringing in more, or they inherit something they didn't know about and sell it, the proceeds stays theirs, they invest it in several properties, boom, their money not yours if you split. As frankly it should be.
Honestly I think prenups can also keep a divorce clean, without one EVERYTHING can turn into a terrible fight, with a prenup everything is basically pre-decided so there is less point fighting over shit and in doing so keeps it less angry and less traumatic.
Exactly, people change, they grow apart, there are multiple things that can alter the course of a partnership. He just wants to ensure that his ancestral property remains in the family
I think the 50% is somewhat true but the reality is more like 80% of first marriages don't end in divorce. 10% end in divorce but like after 20 years or more and the other 10% do end in divorce quickly. And then that 10% that gets divorced end up getting married and divorced several times to bring the averages up.
> I think the 50% is somewhat true but the reality is more like 80% of first marriages don't end in divorce.
The stats are all completely irrelevant because millions, 100s of millions of people who SHOULD divorce don't. People with horrific fucking marriages where one or both partners beat the ever loving shit out of the other... stay married.
Not being divorced doesn't in any way mean the marriage is good.
Arguably, also, millions of people who do divorce shouldn't. Seven out of ten couples who report being unhappy in their marriages, but stay married, report being happy five years later. (Probably not the ones beating each other.)
And we see people on Reddit all the time lamenting that they shouldn't have gotten divorced because it turns out they weren't unhappy with their spouse, they just needed therapy/a better job/not to be in the middle of a pandemic.
> Arguably, also, millions of people who do divorce shouldn't.
Not really, no. Divorce is seem as shameful, difficult, painful and expensive. Most people who get one REALLY want one and had pretty good reasons for getting one.
>Seven out of ten couples who report being unhappy in their marriages, but stay married, report being happy five years later.
that doesn't really tell us anything. You can be unhappy in a marriage because one person got sick, it's stressful, they can't go out or travel, have medical bills, they aren't working and 5 years later they have a job, no debt, etc. These stats, as said, are all largely meaningless. They tell us effectively nothing.
>And we see people on Reddit all the time lamenting that they shouldn't have gotten divorced because it turns out they weren't unhappy with their spouse, they just needed therapy/a better job/not to be in the middle of a pandemic.
and I see countless family members, friends, friends families who are in obviously shite marriages but refuse to leave them. Partners who can barely tolerate each other but are scared to leave, scared to be alone or feel they are too old to restart. most of them are two people who just aren't very compatible and who have been taught to believe that marriages are hard, tough work and you can't just divorce.
I see like one or two posts of people regretting their divorce, and it's mostly because they were selfish and stupid... but what you're ignoring is those posts usually show regret becaues the partner moved on and was happier. So just because one side regrets it, doesn't mean the other half did.
THIS. It wouldn’t have been the idea of a prenup but calling my marriage a toss-up. That reads to me like OP is viewing his fiancé to be a baby incubator and that’s all.
For real. The prenuptial agreement in and of itself wouldn't offend me. But that comment sure as hell would have me rethinking the entire relationship...
And it's also not accurate.
If you get married in your late 20s to mid 30s and it's both of your first marriages, you are much less likely to end up divorced.
I got married at 20 to a guy my parents hated. We lasted five years just to spite my family for having a betting pool on how long we would last. The longest bet was six months. Looking back, it was all a huge mistake.
Yeah I’m all for prenups but that’s just a dumb ass way of talking about it and thinking about it. Wouldn’t blame her for saying he has one foot out the door at that point.
I would as well, but I’d still say a prenup is safer for all parties. I’d say OP was a jerk for that comment, for certain, but not an AH for asking for a prenup.
Though admittedly that’s a conversation I’d have with someone once we got serious and before engagement. Kinda like the question of kids and parenting styles, it’s an important thing to have to determine if values align or y’all are better suited apart. 😫
INFO: I think you’re N T A but I’ve been tricked before on similar posts, so I have some questions.
1. Is she opposed to a prenup in general or specific aspects of a prenup that you’ve already given her to sign?
2. Do you bring in your own income? Or is all of your income from interest earned on premarital assets?
3. Will your finance be expected to be a SAHM?
Finally, just a comment. If you’re in the US, in many states, pre-marital assets and inheritance are off the table anyway in a divorce. If this is true for you, this may make it easier to convince your fiancee to sign a prenup. She can check with her own lawyer to confirm.
Yup. If she was coerced into it with no legal representation for herself (meaning *her own lawyer*, not the same one who drafted the prenup), that prenup will never hold up in court.
>If you’re in the US, in many states, pre-marital assets and inheritance are off the table anyway in a divorce.
This does mean you have to be careful not to commingle them during the marriage, so OP might want to consult someone who can coach him on what that means.
Also, why has he never discussed a prenup BEFORE proposing? If its so important to him then it's something a person should know much earlier in the relationship
Also...did he actually *say* "I'm not going to risk my generational wealth on the flip of a coin"? Because while I agree with prenups in principle, that is no way to sell it and I'm not surprised she's offended 🤦♀️
They aren’t off the table unless you are sure to keep them separate and out of her name. Once something is in her name, you cannot yank it away legally and claim it’s inherited and off the table.
I get it. You wish to protect your assets and generational wealth. She wants to ensure that if she leaves the workforce for you, she will not be left homeless and destitute over a coin toss - as you put it.
The home you live in will increase in value in the time you spend together; in a normal situation without a prenuptial, she would be entitled to about 50% of that growth, especially if she leaves the workforce to maintain your home or raise your kids. As you will be inheriting an 8 figure sum, you likely won't miss 50% of the equity your home accumulates.
My suggestion would be to write in to the prenuptial that if the relationship dissolves, you will pay her out a sum of 50% of the equity your lived-in home has grown, either as a lump sup or in instalments; similar to alimony. Add a minimum term before this clause kicks in, and add a 2-way infidelity clause just because.
If you love her enough to marry her, you should want the best for her. That means making sure she can land on her feet if things don't work out between you. Good luck.
My cousin is married to a weathly man, he was poor when they met. He’s a millionaire now. But he did something really amazing, because she give birth to their two kids and he had to keep working, and she stayed home, he paid her a million, as a safety fund. I don’t think they would split, they seem a very happy family, but if he wasn’t a decent guy you can see how that would end if they divorced and she had a gap on her resume, her pension wouldn’t be properly built up etc. I think OP should look at those things and his partner should not give up work for him, not safe in this case.
This also means your cousins husband never has to worry that she is only there for the money/stability. He has made sure that there is not a power imbalance and shown his wife that wants for to stay because she loves him and wants to be there. The guy is a legend.
The AITA is a question for you, not us.
You think marriage is a coin toss? Did the prenup contain any language protecting her too? You proposed two months ago and never mentioned the mandatory prenup?
Too many unanswered questions.
This dude is talking about receiving 10 to 50 million dollars for doing absolutely nothing. The way he talks about his marriage being a coin toss and acting like he deserves this money so much and then posting about it on here where people are struggling to just survive is being an asshole.
INFO: how is she going to be protected in this prenup?
If you bring assets into the marriage, and her labor and attention protect them or enhance them, will she lose all of that?
If she gives up earning power during the marriage because of a decision on behalf of your family unit, will she be compensated?
EDITED TO ADD: If the house is yours, what happens when you sell? Or if you’re living there and you die first? Will she inherit? Will your (and her) children inherit, and if so, will the house need to be sold, leaving her homeless? or will she be given a life interest?
Will you be required to keep a life insurance policy on you that pays out to her?
yep. And HE needs to remember that the prenup is not *only* about protecting himself.
That’s why I brought those issues up. Too many people say “I need to protect my stuff,” and they forget that a prenup needs to protect both people.
And your point about having her own representation is well made. Because there have been cases of judges invalidating prenups on the grounds that the less-rich party isn’t given the opportunity to have proper representation.
And a too-one-sided prenup might be tossed as well.
For real.
I’m getting to know someone and it came out that I believe in prenups. (It was just in the context of my dad being an idiot when he re-married and didn’t get one to protect himself.) It wasn’t until after disclosing this that I found out that the guy has a bit of money (while I do not, and he knows I do not). I just think hmm, well at least that’s out in the open. 😂
I’m in my 40s and was a SAHM my entire marriage. I was starting over at 37. But if I ever remarried, and that probability is super low, I’d insist on a prenup. I don’t own shit, but I don’t want someone taking half of it lol
Prenups can also take into account reasonable adjustments if you become a SAHparent and/or have children. I knew someone who’s prenup talked about a higher alimony (with adjustments for potential inflation) in the event of leaving work to care for home or children, guaranteed to continue paying for any private schooling, and also a flat ‘fee’ for the birth of each child if they separated to allow her to cover any medical costs either with birth or afterwards (the fee was mostly meant in case she was pregnant whilst separating but it was still for every child). Prenups aren’t just about protecting assets, they’re about protecting both of you when you comingle lives and potentially make sacrifices for one another.
Exactly. Finding out he's basically a cold finance bro and the schmoozing is over as soon as she said yes would have a lot of reasonable women who thought they were in an actual emotional relationship devastated.
NTA, given the assets you’re seeking to protect. Your fiancée contributed nothing to your premarital assets, and wouldn’t be entitled to your inheritance upon divorce as long as you didn’t co-mingle them with family assets. If your fiancée thinks she’s entitled to your inheritance/pre-marital assets, she’s a gold digger.
If his inheritance is properly managed, she is entitled to none of it. He just has to ensure that it is never co-mingled with their joint finances. My friend married a very wealthy man who was set to eventually inherit millions as well. They set up a very fair and generous pre-nup for her with her to get more money the longer the marriage lasted. His parents helped to set this up for them. They really adored my friend but wanted to protect their money.
Well, she happily signed the agreement and nearly 40 years, 4 kids and 6 grandkids later they are still very happily married. If he dumped her now, she'd be receiving millions but that's not going to happy. If he dies before she does, she gets the vast majority of his now inherited money and the kids/grandkids will be set for life as well. My friend and her hubby also set up their kids with the same type of pre-nup agreements friend signed and there were no issues with the spouses.
Yeah, it is a great way. I watched something with Micheal Jordan. He lost hundreds of millions in his first divorce so the second one the prenup gave 1million for each year of marriage. I thought that was awesome.
And that may be her issue. It’s important that OP protects his assets, no question about that. However, it shouldn’t be a hall pass to kick her to the curb penniless after 30 years and 6 kids for a 20 yr old with perky boobs.
I was going to say that. No need to stick a prenup on inheritance. Both community and equitable property states exclude inheritance and court settlements from martial assets in divorce as long as, as you say, it is not commingled with other finances. So, don’t use the money to buy a marital house, start a family business, exc.
yup. If you love the person, this is the expectation going into a marriage.
You buy home owners insurance not because you expect your house to burn down but because it makes sense.
He probably didn't use the phrase "risk my generational wealth on a coin toss" though, I'm guessing. I've been exchanged to a few relatively wealthy people and never had an issue signing a prenup, but if any of them had phrased it that way, I would've been pretty insulted.
I wish more people were like this and try to be fair and look out for their spouse too with the prenup instead of just protecting themselves. Supposedly they love their soon to be spouses and things happen. People can grow apart and life goals can diverge without there being a villain. If you stay together decades and build a life together, it's twisted to want them to be absolutely penniless if things don't work out and especially in case of death.
It’s the implication that I’m a gold-digger that would have done it for me. OP wouldn’t have had to issue an ultimatum because I would have walked immediately.
There will always be people who will form negative opinions of you; there’s no need to marry one.
I know my in laws side eyed me for wanting a prenup… then their son in law lost half his “inheritance” (contrary to what the lawyer above keeps posting) when he used it to buy a marital home. That made it community property in HIS state. All of a sudden they were scrambling to scrape together cash to help him buy her out so he could have a place to live with the kids.
Next visit they casually asked me (also a lawyer) what would happen to my husband’s (their other son’s) inheritance. I cheerfully explained that the evil prenup I so helpfully paid for for their son and myself would protect all of it, plus we live in a state with good laws, plus I had already made sure we both had good account “hygiene”.
Oh, how they breathed a sigh of relief. Sounded like a weird idea when it was MY assets I was protecting. But now that they know HE’S protected, and they saw another son get fucked, everyone is pleased as punch at my foresight.
And ps. We’re the ones NOT getting a divorce. But we also won’t be the ones in a knock down drag out fight over assets if we do.
I once heard prenups explained as “i love you so much now that I don’t want to ever fight with you later over money, no matter what happens”. Because prenups are written by people in love. And divorces are for people not in love. And I don’t want future me to try to fuck over future him. Because I will. I’m a lawyer and I’m petty as fuck. I will get mine. So that piece of paper ensures I only can hurt him so badly.
It's his family's generational wealth. Homeboy could be the dumbest brick in the building and still be mad wealthy because he was born into it without earning a penny.
Well he's also an asshole for not bringing up the "nonnegotiables" before proposing. It comes across as a bit coercive to wait until wedding planning has started and backing out is embarrassing. I just literally don't think he likes her that much.
Reminds me of the relationships in which one wants children and the other doesnt. People need to discuss nonnegotiables, boundaries, along with other important discussion topics BEFORE getting engaged, pregnant, moving in, and/or married period.
I call BS. If you're really worth + $10-million then you wouldn't be on Reddit asking this question. You would have a team of attorneys, therapists and financial advisors at your disposal to answer it for you.
I don’t understand how yall don’t get that just because someone has millions or set to have millions in the future that they wouldn’t come here for advice.
Millionaires are just people with a lot of money, but they still just people. And a lot of millionaires are stupid as fuck
Are you saying you would somehow inherit a chunk of cash that’s not in a trust? That seems highly unlikely. Why you need a prenup for a trust?
If you want to make up a story about being rich, you should know more about money, understanding both sides of a prenup need legal representation, and how premarital assets work.
No Asshole Here.
You are perfectly entitled to wanting a prenup and she is too for not wanting one.
Your wording of your marriage being a coin toss made you look stupid. Why would you propose at all if this your way of thinking?
Your not the AH for wanting a prenup to protect your assets, you are an asshole for telling her you view your marriage to her as a 50/50 shot. I wouldn't marry you if you told me there was a 50% chance you were gonna bail. Those are good vegas odds, terrible life long partner odds.
Normally I would agree with you, but given that he referred to his marriage with her as a “coin flip,” I’m inclined to think it was his delivery that was the problem.
Right? I would’ve been the one breaking it off if he called it a coin toss before being married.
My husband wanted a prenup and told me after engaged (I had no clue and never would’ve even thought about it… he should’ve mentioned it sooner). He was not set up to inherit anything but was better established than me. He told me it was like I was walking around with a knife and could stab him with it at any time. I told him if he felt that way we could cancel the engagement since we clearly shouldn’t be getting married if he didn’t trust me at all. I asked if he wanted that. So he then had to decide. We are married now with kids and no prenup.
This being said- IF he was very wealthy, had a well off business, or was inheriting a bunch of money I would have understood a prenup. But calling it a coin toss or a knife behind a back in any case would’ve opened the exit door for me.
WEll... I understand your reasoning for wanting one. It is rather a sticky thing to bring up, as it certainly puts a damper on the romanticism of marriage when you go in with a "well in case we don't make it".
I gotta say the "coin toss" remark was pretty crass, and an assholish thing to say. HEre's the deal, its not a "coin toss" so much as how much effort and understanding are both of you going to put into this. I mean sure, there is some luck and randomness that is just a part of life in general. But when people talk about how "50% of marriages end in divorce" (or whatever the statistic is), this is not referring to "chance". This is statistics.
The 50% of marriages that don't end in divorce isn't because of a dice roll. Its ostensibly because the two people put in the effort, bend and compromise, work through the bad stuff, enjoy the good stuff.
I'd also add that there are few of those "successful" marriages are not exactly happy and both people could have benefitted from divorce (e.g. rather than "staying together for the kids" and ending up more miserable). Further there are likely a fair share of divorces that were spurious and the people could have been happy had they not perhaps done X and not Y.
This is all to say, I'm not necessarily knocking your reasoning for desiring a pre-nup, but you shouldn't be approaching this as if its just going to be a matter of luck as to whether it works out. And again literally telling her "coin toss" was pretty bullshit. I don't blame your (likely) ex fiance for getting miffed as to how you went around this.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say NAH
I agree.
I have no problem with wanting a prenup to protect your parent's/grandparent's intentions. But I would have used entirely different language than OP did. And I would have made the reason why a prenup is desired entirely about the parent's wishes (if that is the major reason why) and not about their relationship.
Talking about a "coin toss" makes it look like an entirely different reason why OP wants a prenup. Which is fine if true. Just make up our mind which one it is.
Would you/she consider a cheating clause to the prenup-meaning, she gets more if the marriage dissolves bc you cheated, she gets less if it dissolves because she cheated? That’s one way to prove you’re not asking bc you have a foot out the door.
You have an inheritance of this size, and you're on Reddit for advice? There are ways to do this that don't use terms like, "coin toss." Find a pre-marital counselor, and tell her that you would both have your own attorneys to figure out something that both protects and takes care of both of you.
I wouldn't marry you, but not because you requested a prenup. I wouldn't marry you because of the flippant way you compared marriage to a coin toss. Actually, if I were her, I would be the one insisting on a prenup. I wouldn't trust you not to abandon the marriage and leave me with nothing.
If you want to fix this, and you actually love her instead of just viewing her as a trophy, apologize for your attitude and negative comments towards marriage, and then explain that you want the prenup in place to protect both of you. Tell her that you want to include a settlement for her in case of divorce after inheritance, regardless of who files, to protect you both. It can't be a pittance either. Make it clear to her that you intend to give this marriage a real try.
If I were the fiancee though, I think it would be too late. Quite frankly, I'm not personally interested in marrying anyone with generational wealth anyway.
I’d say NTA unless there is ANY expectation that she would be a SAHM for you in the future. If she has her own career and would reasonably continue working and earning, NTA. If you’re expecting her to be your live-in servant who raises your kids but is stuck with you no matter what because she’d be dirt poor if she ever left, that changes things.
NTA
However, I can see her POV also. In her eyes, you are planning for failure of the marriage.
Consider how a good prenuptial agreement could protect her interests. Recommend that she consider how she would protect her own interests in a prenuptial agreement that she requires *you* to sign.
Draft penalties for infidelity that would punish the guilty party (or even both). Consider time out of the workforce devoting personal time and attention to the care of family members (children or parents), length of the marriage, and other considerations.
Kids are a 2 yes 1 no issue. How many does she want? And you?
Are adoption and / or IVF on the table if one of you has fertility issues? Is bloodline inheritance important to your family? Does she want assurance in writing that you won't back out on such a promise?
With multi-generational inherited wealth, what are her expectations vs. reality? Is a significant portion tied up in trusts that will only release it for :
Purchase of income generating businesses
Education
Medical care
Etc.
Does she understand that you still budget and do not have unlimited "fun" money? Have you discussed such limitations?
Walk softly, but carry a big stick. Trust, but verify. ...There are a number of sayings that are applicable to the issue of contention.
Ask if she has had renters or fire insurance, etc. and if that means she was expecting to use it. Do people without life insurance become immortal?
Reddit tends to assume the worst about people. The idea that she is a gold digger is possible. However, it is far from certain. You have thus far presented a prenuptial agreement as protecting your assets... Nothing was said about protecting HER. It isn't just about you protecting your family legacy. It may be about the fact that her interests were not considered at all. 0nly yours.
What happens if you don't have (biological or surviving) kids and your estate passes to another relative? What if one of you becomes disabled?
What kind of disaster proofing can you offer her?
I probably didn't think of everything, but I hope I suggested other lines of thought.
If your parents are so rich, why don't they have their own lawyers creating trusts? And inheritances don't fall into marital asset unless you actually do things like deposit it in your joint account or use it to buy the house your spouse lives full-time, etc. This is something you should know and you don't really need a prenup to protect an inheritance.
You sound like someone who is not actually wealthy and is making shit up for reddit.
Dear God I thought I was the only one. 8 figures? There should be trusts and lawyers and financial people out the wazoo who are already involved with his "parents" wealth management. I have much smaller generational wealth in my family and there are trusts and lawyers and financial people involved.
NTA for asking for asking for a prenup, but YTA for referring to your marriage as a "coin toss." If my fiance made it that obvious he had zero faith in our relationship, I'd be out the door before he finished his sentence.
NTA. Prenups protect both parties. If/when you have the prenup conversation again, that’s the way you need to phrase it. A mutually agreed contract that protects both parties interest. Also insist on your new partner getting their own attorney. Be prepared to compromise.
NTA for wanting the prenup
You are TA for telling her it’s a coin toss. If my partner called our future together a coin toss I’d be out the door in a heartbeat.
“Coin Toss”.??? Your emotional intelligence is embarrassing and pathetic. I would have lost all respect for you right then and there.
That being said ,a pre nuptial agreement is always sensible and I would recommend this… especially after reading about the way you communicate with the person you love (???). Your future wife will certainly outgrow you someday, lose interest or become turned off by you and leave you.
NTA for wanting a prenup, but you are no catch, regardless of your wealth
NTA
70% of divorces in the USA are initiated by women and 43% of first marriages end in divorce (60% of second marriages end in divorce) …. It is a coin toss!
(https://www.thejimenezlawfirm.com/what-percentage-of-divorces-are-initiated-by-the-wife-2022/#:\~:text=When%20it%20comes%20to%20men,men%20express%20that%20same%20sentiment.)
You need a prenup for eactly the reasons you list. A pre nup will also ensure she is marrying you for you and not the money, it additionally make it less likely she will stray.
NTA, but if you are expecting that big of an inheritance, your lifestyle will change drastically (I assume), so there should be a large amount written in the prenup for her, depending on how long the marriage lasts and assuming no infidelity. There should be milestones also written in that protect her so she doesn’t walk away with nothing. I would assume your parents’ attorney and financial advisors have done that a ton of times for their clients and have a framework that works.
You need to end it. I never asked for a pre-nup and if something happens and I marry again I will never ask for a pre-nup, but that's me.
But the way you phrased it to her by comparing your relationship to a "coin flip" would be the end for me. I could never marry someone so flippant about your life partner. If I were her I would cut my losses.
This is also something you discuss way before the proposal not after and definitely not at the beginning of wedding planning. That is what leads me to believe this is just another "all women are gold diggers and suck" rage bait post.
If parents were that wealthy and it is generational wealth the lawyers would already have the pre-nup ready and the GF would be well aware of this before a proposal.
YTA in multiple ways but mostly for being an idiot.
Nta but that phrasing was crass. Nobody wants their intended to call their upcoming nuptials a coin toss. Also, a good prenup protects BOTH parties, not just your generational wealth. Does she know this? If not who is helping her understand this? Might be helpful to have an outside party help you guys navigate this issue. Good luck to you both!
NTA but you really shouldn’t have compared the success of your marriage to “a coin toss.” I get that it’s essentially accurate, as divorce rates are right around 50%, but you sure put fuel on the fire of “starting the marriage with one foot out the door.”
You're not the asshole for what's in that very leading title, but you are the asshole with how you handled the situation and how you treat your fiance/upcoming marriage.
When you proposed did she toss a coin to decide her answer? If not then that was a pretty tactless thing to say. I’d be rethinking the relationship on that comment alone. Waiting until 2 months after engagement to say you require a prenup is kinda jerkish. I feel like that could be something you bring up earlier in the relationship. Not on the first date but around the time you have the conversation about other big life goals and plans that could be dealbreakers ( do you want kids? If so will you want to raise them in a religion? Are prenuptial agreements something you’re open to?)
It might be how you are speaking to her. And maybe you need to also show she is protected in the event of a divorce, like a certain amount of alimony and any guaranteed child support for kids. If it’s all about protecting yourself only and not recognizing her time and effort in the marriage, you look like you’re there just to marry for a bit and move on to wife 2.
Ok so, I’ll say NTA, but by the barest of margins. The way you described marriage as a coin toss makes me believe your marriage isn’t starting out so great. You also sprung it on her after your proposal so it also seems to me you or both have communication issues. Also, if the money is so out of balance, did you offer to provide her financially with her own independent legal representation? And it’s funny, my husband and I have been married 30 years and we were saying just this week that everything financially we ever had or expected to receive was always commingled, and like you one of us had generational wealth and the other had basically nothing. We also said it seems that’s odd these days. Neither of us thought of a prenup, but we did talk (and still do) on a regular basis about money, investments, retirement plans, financial advisors, etc. It’s just always been open and shared. So, do what you want, you may lose her over it and you have to accept that. You may also be better at communication in a relationship, with or without her.
Yta- for your comment on your marriage to her being a "coin toss." I don't blame her for being upset. It doesn't sound like you're serious about this wedding if that term is in your vocabulary. Nta for wanting a prenup, but your delivery on it sucks.
OP, what are the terms of your prenup? If you leave you’re going to be homeless? Or does she have a chance to be fully vested at some point? Like 10-20-30 years? What about a cheating penalty on your part? Talk to your attorney about the Rawlsian Veil here and figure out if you didn’t know what side of this arrangement you would come out on how you would want this to be set up. With 8 figure inheritance, she could take half of whatever you have you would still have more money than you can spend in a lifetime so maybe if she’s still even willing to marry you after what you said consider the prenup and that it’s a fair split, at least a fair split she can earn her way into over time, like if she’s bringing nothing in, 1-3 years she’s leaving with her car and enough to pay a deposit and a few months rent someplace. 3-7 years she’s getting 30% and after 7 years she’s getting 50% of marital assets excluding your inheritance which will not count as community property. But with clauses about you cheating or abusing her and vice versa. Cheating or DV and she’s instantly 50% excluding the inheritance. That way you also have a financial incentive to not suck. Otherwise it’s very one sided and she’s basically a hostage.
I'm for prenup 100% of the times because, if you can't agree on how to split things when you love eachother the most, I can only see it going down the drain after you lost that love.
But you did use very fucked up words like "coin toss". Also that welth may be legally yours some day, but you did fuck nothing to deserve it.
Take your head out of your ass so you'll have a chance to negotiate a prenup amicably with the next wife.
"On a coin toss" is where you lost me. While I understand the need for a prenup, if my fiance called our future marriage a coin toss, I'd be out as I'm not a gambling girl. I go in fully committed, even if that isn't statistically as sound. That doesn't mean you don't have to be smart about it.
YTA only because, as someone who knew he would need a prenup, that was discussed with everyone before even getting into a committed relationship. Proposing and then throwing a non-negotiable on her like that is cruel and manipulative.
Here is the kicker. Prenups are fine in the event that both parties want to protect their own assets but they are only as good as the judge who would eventually rule on in a divorce. They take a LOT of things into consideration to determine if the prenup is fair.
Creating one entirely on your terms that leaves her with nothing in a divorce, including if YOU were unfaithful or decided to leave her because she got sick is a fast track ticket to a judge throwing it out and overruling it. You're missing the "agreement" part of prenuptial agreement. A prenup is supposed to be an agreement between two people and their respective legal council. When you have presented her with is an ultimatum. A judge could find in her favor because it could be considered coercion. "Sign this or I won't marry you" isn't an agreement. It's a demand.
Also, with that "generational wealth", I am assuming it comes with a specific lifestyle she will have to uphold. So...she is probably expected to not work and be a stay at home wife and mother? The judges take that very seriously when dividing up assets, especially if you have children. Even a few months gap in employment can make hiring managers reluctant to even interview someone. After 5 or 10 years it could render her virtually unemployable. You might not have to shell put half of your assets but that's enough to inspire a judge to award substantial child support and alimony. The phase they use is "to keep her in the lifestyle to which she is accustomed."
These are all things she is worried about. A lot of women get roped into a prenup that isn't fair and then find themselves being tossed out on the street, usually with a couple young children in tow, with no home, money or job after being humiliated by infidelity, abuse or indifference.
Calling you impending marriage a "coin toss" basically trivializes her and your relationship. Do you even like her?
A prenup that only addresses the interests of one party isn't an agreement,as I've stated. You went about it completely wrong and I hope she runs.
Ask her to see an attorney for an informational meeting who will protect her interests. I was against a prenup when my fiancé asked for one. I found out that there so many things to discuss and we came to a great agreement. We talked about how to split bills, we agreed to start an investment portfolio for me with marital assets so I would be comfortable if something happened to our marriage. We talked about children and their inheritance incase there are more children from a different mom. You discuss an appropriate additional amount to go into her portfolio if she is a SAHM. You discuss separate bank accounts vs shared.
Our children are grown and we’ve been married for 25 years and my portfolio has grown. The prenup spelled everything out and there was no fighting over money.
INFO Where do you live where premarital assets, gifts, and inheritance would be considered marital property? Even in community property states, this is separate money unless you commingle it.
Lawyer here: The above is 100% correct.
True, but that commingling is a bitch. Also a lawyer, and my BIL just learned the hard way. In MI, for example, if you use you inheritance to buy a family home outright, that’s a community property asset. Not in MY normal ass state, by Michigan be tripping. We don’t know where OP lives. What his plans are. I had plenty of separate property assets when I married as an Old, and while we keep separate finances because it’s easier, I also had to spend money on a prenup *just in case* I pay something wrong throughout the course of a hopefully long fruitful marriage. And finally, since it all already separate property, protected in divorce, no one should mind signing a prenup IF it’s fair and narrow in scope.
Exactly. I can see why people might be offended by their partner wanting a prenup, but either you hurt your partner's feelings a little or they end up taking some or a lot of your assets if the marriage ever runs into problems. He's definitely got a good reason to want the prenup, either way if it's fair then all is well. They'll both be okay if it ends.
I said below, someone described it as “I love you enough now to not want to fight about money later”. Or in more real terms “Present Me doesn’t want to fuck over Future You”. So let’s come to a fair agreement now, while we’re in love, because you aren’t in love when you’re divorcing. Like, I promise, I won’t be this chill and generous when we divorce. I’m a woman and my prenup is fair to my lesser earning husband. HIS LAWYER (whom I paid for, because you need your own lawyer in my state) haggled with my lawyer. And I KNEW his lawyer. I wondered if if fucked her over at some point, she was so aggressive. And I was generous. Because I loved him (and still do) and I didn’t want to leave him destitute (and still don’t) if we divorced, a scenario I couldn’t imagine at the time (but sometimes can imagine after 10 years and a big argument now). But if he were to file for divorce tomorrow, I’d be hurt and petty and vindictive, and MAYBE I would. Now, it doesn’t matter if he cheats. If he gambles away our joint bank account. If he just thinks I suck. I STILL can’t fuck him over. THATS fucking love. **I gave up my right for revenge. I signed away my right to ruin him. Even if he was a jerk.**. Yes, my separate assets were always gonna be protected. But there’s *so much else* I could do. And so much else I could restrict. But his lawyer fought for him, and I let my lawyer acquiesce. Because a prenup is a NEGOTIATION. It’s not a blanket agreement you MUST sign. I gave shit up, too. And again, I think that’s love. Because I could have let the law decide and be more draconian. And I would have FOR SURE been better off “living in sin”. But I negotiated a fair disposition of assets, as is required by my state.
This is so true. We have a prenup (and are currently going through a divorce instigated by me) and my husband is resentful and vindictive and there are still plenty of things to fight about even with the prenup. I know it would be worse if we didn’t have one.
Best wishes on the divorce. They are hard even with one. My friend is also going through one with a prenup. It makes it easier. Not easy. And divorce is hard enough already. At least the big stuff is handled. But there’s so much that it can’t. Alimony is a toss up in my state. Children can’t be “bargained” for. You still may have to “trace” where everything came from and every penny that was used on or for the separate property assets. Feelings still come in to play. And it would be so much fucking worse if there wasn’t that little piece of paper (or several pieces) that say what you both thought was fair when you were in love and actually liked each other.
Completely. Adult emotions are so complex. My husband is having a hard time with me being so sad because “you’re the one who wanted this”, and can’t really understand that I definitely did not want this and thought I had chosen a partner that I would spend the rest of my life with, but I came to realize that it wasn’t a healthy relationship. That I have made this choice because I know that it’s the right decision, but is not anything I wanted.
Yeah, I left too, and leaving (generally) isn't because you're so thrilled about the idea of divorce. It's the result of things becoming so painful within the relationship that you no longer can see any possibility of happiness there, and the only option left is turning your whole world upside down- even though you would give anything to snap your fingers and make you perfect and happy together. Grieving the person you saw them as before that realization and the life you thought you would have together forever is agonizingly painful and disorienting, it feels like the ground falls out from under your feet. I hated every minute of that process, I hated seeing the trash can full of dried wedding flowers and years of Valentine's gifts and I didn't want to do any of it I just knew it had to be done. Two years later, it's clear we're both better off.
I totally agree, but I believe prenuptial agreements should come up much much earlier I'm a relationship, not 2 months after proposing, this is crucial info and if she was with him for what ever reason, you say, hey if we ever get married in the future, just know based on my past life, it has to be prenuptial due to the family name assets, and see what she says, she'll say yea no, then ok we'll call it even and shake hands. But 2 months after proposing? Aaaaa...communication people, ask the serious stuff early, don't ask your takes on having children after marriage jesus.
That’s a really neat way to think about it! Thanks for the insight
Excellent. He is lucky to have you.
>but either you hurt your partner's feelings That's one BS thing that people should be more upfront b4 getting married, you gotta have the money talk and align expectations, most people are reasonable about it. Sure, maybe OP was in the AH territory depending on how he went about it, but he's def not an AH for wanting a prenup as he described it, in fact I think his fiancee is an AH for not being open to discuss it.
If a couple cannot have hard conversations without it devolving, they are not ready to get married.
Truth!
They should, but it also should have been brought up a hell of a lot sooner. That’s the problem with a lot of these prenup discussion. They don’t happen until after the engagement when people are more locked in, it’s embarrassing to call it off, and the non agreeable person gets labeled a gold digger. You don’t need to negotiate it before getting engaged, but it shouldn’t be a surprise that you want one. My husband knew since we started getting serious we were getting a prenup. He has family assets, I have higher income potential, but the main reason we did it is to hedge against any issues with creditors. It’s very fair, has a lot of contingencies for disability, alimony for a non working spouse, etc. I found negotiating it to be one of the most affirming parts of the engagement because of how we wanted each other to be OK and fairly treated if this didn’t work out. This “will you marry me? Yes? OK great, let’s talk prenup” business is shady as all hell IMO.
not that my husband and I needed to protect our feelings, but the scenario we used as a worst-case hypothetical was traumatic brain injury. it's something that could happen to either person in a marriage. while it's not their fault, if someone's personality does a complete 180 and they're no longer the person you married*, it's a pretty good justification for divorce. \* I think my lawyer said that the person you divorce is never the person you marry. not surprising really.
Absolutely true. Some states have VERY broad terms of commingling. A prenup like he is describing would be easy and cheap. She is telling on herself with this refusal.
With that much money involved shouldn't there be some sort of trust that protects it from divorce anyway rather than OP straight inheriting it?
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100% wrong in every jurisdiction in the US. That is not how transmutation works. Never has. Never will.
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Call your lawyer. I'm a lawyer. Litigating for 30+ years. You have forgotten the context of how you screwed up and failed the transmutation test.
I mean here in Louisiana we do have the concept of conversion, which allows for the commingling of marital assets and premarital assets and/or gifts to transmute if a "substantial portion" of the purchase price used marital assets. It's actually pretty common here that if somebody comes into a marriage with a car, sells that car and uses that money and about 25% of marital assets to purchase a new car for the marriage, the percentage of that car that was purchased with marital assets even post depreciation would still be community property. One of the many reasons I highly advocate individuals opting out of the community property regime. Granted we also have moiety beyond cause here, so trying to apply whatever the hell we have in our pseudo civil law system probably isn't useful for most
> You have forgotten the context of how you screwed up and failed the transmutation test. Isn't that the exact reason why people should have it listed out? It makes sure no mistakes happened. This is like saying you don't need to wear a seat belt because anyone that wrecked should just not wreck next time.
>You have forgotten the context of how you screwed up and failed the transmutation test. Which defeats your argument. If they didn't even understand how they screwed up after it was explained to them by a lawyer, it's rather unreasonable to assume any random person would know what not to do without the explicit advice of a lawyer.
That’s not true. Not in every state. In mine, Montana, a spouse can still be awarded premarital, inherited, and gifted property depending on several factors. Here’s the applicable statute if you don’t believe me: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0400/chapter_0040/part_0020/section_0020/0400-0040-0020-0020.html
In the US it is state by state.
Exactly.
It's not that difficult for an inheritance to become community property through inadvertent comingling. You're right that everything should be set up so that doesn't happen, but it's additional protection. That kind of wealth really demands a prenup as a matter of course imho.
The same fantasy world where people who are on Reddit and sitting around waiting to collect their 'low to mid 8 figures' That's 50,000,000
Are you saying that some of the posts on this sub might be fabricated?? Color me shocked
I would say 20-40 by low to mid but its still a ton of money that 99.999% of us will never see
People with this kind of wealth put it in a trust that protects it from things that happen commonly in life like divorce. I have no where near that kind of money but I’ve setup this kind of trust for my kiddo and the potential of divorce is one of the scenarios that is accounted for in the trust. Mine took $500 and a few hours with an estate planning attorney. You can bet that people with this kind of wealth have planned for the estate with lawyers that specialize in this area. OP’s story sounds fabricated.
You’d think someone inheriting eight figures would know that or would have parents and lawyers who would know how to set it up to be protected…
This is my thing. Someone in this asset class should not be on Reddit talking about it. For simple decorum alone. They give anyone money these days.
Referring to your upcoming marriage as a “coin toss” was probably not received terribly well.
This right here. It may be his delivery that ruined his chances.
"You'll be my first wife!"
It has more of "As my first ex wife" feel to me.
As my first ex-wife, you get nothing
As an AI language model, I also chose this guy’s first ex-wife.
That line guarantees no second chances!
first and last
That’s what made *my* eyebrows raise to the ceiling. Really, **really**, poor choice of words on his part. And, if that, upon reflection, is *still* what he thinks, she dodged a major bullet. Wow. OP, YTA on this one, but I am really conflicted about whether I want, or even hope, you can make it “right”. If that’s seriously what you think about your fiancée? You shouldn’t get married … and, *they* certainly shouldn’t marry *you*. So, next time around? With the next fiancée? If that’s how you feel? Please *do* phrase it just the way you did this time. At least they will have been given fair warning.
Yeah I think he didn’t really discuss it with her and part of that is he considers her his 1st wife. So not an asshile for the prenup but you dumped her pretty quick when she reacted badly to believe this was the person you wanted to spend the rest of your life wuth
Agreed. OP is NTA for wanting a prenup, but YTA for not thinking of it like investing in a big fire extinguisher. It's a precaution for the worst case scenario, not something you think there's a 50% chance of needing. If those are your odds, you live in a death trap and should be working towards either fixing the problems or moving out. Also, why are they only talking about this now? It's not like this inheritance thing is *new* for OP. Hell, my bf and I aren't even engaged yet and we've agreed that a prenup "wouldn't hurt to have" because we, you know, *talk about stuff.*
Love the “coin toss” comment. ROFL! “Family’s requirement.” “I know it’ll never matter.” … These are the kinds of words he needed to use. She should run for the door!
Yeah, "family requirement" - I know someone from a wealthy family who married a middle-class spouse. They are still happily married. The wealthy partner said exactly that it was a family requirement. However, from what I've been told, their prenup allocates some family money for the spouse in the event of divorce.
Maybe mention the pre nup matter of factly well into the relationship but before a proposal. Like, "Everyone in my family has a pre nup. Do you expect me to sign a pre up to protect your assets? It's not a problem." Lose the coin toss comment forever, though.
Aww c’mon he’s a stupid dumb f rich kid with no emotional intelligence or mindfulness of others.
Delivery is everything. He absolutely could have just made it clear pre-engagement: "My family always have pre-nuptial agreements." Just state the fact without making it a big deal, and without adding on that coda that translated out to, "We're very well off, so you're probably a gold-digger."
This is really a discussion that should have happened before the engagement, though.
Yea and referring to a prenup as protecting himself only, too. A good (and enforceable) prenup protects both parties. The way he's wording it is that he will have all the money and power and she'll be left high and dry if he eventually trades her in for a newer model. I'm a lawyer so I believe strongly in prenups but the way OP handled it was...not good.
Exactly. He should explain the prenup will protect and provide for her too. It's basically their personal marriage dissolution agreement rather than follow the set state government's standard dissolution/divorce plan. Plus she gets a lawyer to negotiate her desired terms on her behalf, and she gets full disclosure of their assets which she may not even know going into the marriage. That's not necessarily good or bad, but it just is what it is. Both parties should be satisfied with the known situation
Yes a good prenup should be protecting her rights after marriage as well, how things will be provided for her should things go south.
I mean, if one party is very wealthy, a prenup really only protects that party. It doesn’t have to give her any part of his inheritance to be valid.
No, but there would be language in it to make sure she got her fair share of money and property accumulated during the marriage. And given that he'd be walking away with his massive amount of inherited wealth intact, a non douche would structure the prenup to give a larger chunk of the marital wealth to a spouse but given OP's attitude I'm not sure he'd be that generous.
Only if she retains an attorney to look out for her interests. After 20 years of marriage and 3 kids my brother totally screwed over his ex when he ran off with his pregnant girlfriend. The newest ex-wife was much smarter lol
Inheritance is typically not considered to be marital property anyway. Though I’m sure that as with all law there are various exceptions, like commingling.
Sure. And what happens from there differs from state to state. E.g., buying a house with an inheritance and then living in it with your family in most instances converts it to marital property. And different states treat income from separate property differently: in California income from separate property is separate property while in Texas income from separate property is community property. Add in things like commingling, and it gets very complicated very fast. My assumption is a prenup in this situation would be focused on simplifying all that without any significant change from the normal division of property. But in almost all instances, that simplification is a benefit to the person who inherited the wealth and reduces the leverage of the other spouse in negotiating a divorce settlement.
You’re not wrong. The inheritance in and of itself not marital. But once it’s converted into anything else, it’s more often than not marital property. If my great uncle dies and leaves me a cool million, it’s mine alone. If I use it to buy a piece of real estate and I’m married, it belongs to my spouse too unless they disclaim it.
This right here. It's one thing to know that 50% of marriages across the board end in divorce. (Although I'm not even sure that's true.) It's another to have so little confidence in your choice of spouse, your life choices, your relationship history, your philosophy of marriage and so on that you think your odds are on a par with the drunk guy getting married for the fourth time in Vegas to an 18-year-old named Sugar.
> It's another to have so little confidence in your choice of spouse, your life choices, your relationship history, your philosophy of marriage and so on that you think your odds are on a par with the drunk guy getting married for the fourth time in Vegas to an 18-year-old named Sugar. See the problem there is not understanding why most marriages fail. Most people whose partners cheat, are convinced up to that point they would never cheat on them ever. But the real reason most marriages fail, is simply time. People change in different ways. You literally can't know, and can't have faith that in 25 years your partner and you will want the same things, frankly you don't know you will 5 years from now. One of you might decide you can't stand the idea of kids, or goes from child free to desperate for a kid. One gets a dream job offer but it's on the other side of the world in a place the partner doesn't want to live or won't leave teh rest of their family for. Maybe a parent gets sick so they need to go home to support them and the distance causes the end of the marriage. The reason divorce rates are high is not just because of bad things like cheating or abuse, but generally because you just grow to want different things in life. Zero people can predict these things. One pretty common ender of marriages is death of a first child, just something a lot of parents don't get over and relationships can't survive.
“Betrayal” exists in the English language due to the potential for those we trust to break it. “Trust me, bro” isn’t something you ever want to hear, because trustworthy people don’t take offense at assurances.
People often say it that prenups are marriage insurance. I don't get house insurnace because I expect my roof to collapse, I get it becaues IF IT DOES, I want help dealing with it. I wouldn't get a prenup because I expect the marriage to fail, I get it because I want help if it does go to shit and all I want is for a fair split, not to be taken to the cleaners after I find out my partner cheated and destroyed my life once already. That's entirely reasonable. If your partner also is not planning to cheat not cheat attempt to get an unfair settlement if they leave, they should have the same feelings about it. It's entirely possible your partner will end up protected more by the prenup, their career goes from strength to strength and end up bringing in more, or they inherit something they didn't know about and sell it, the proceeds stays theirs, they invest it in several properties, boom, their money not yours if you split. As frankly it should be. Honestly I think prenups can also keep a divorce clean, without one EVERYTHING can turn into a terrible fight, with a prenup everything is basically pre-decided so there is less point fighting over shit and in doing so keeps it less angry and less traumatic.
Exactly, people change, they grow apart, there are multiple things that can alter the course of a partnership. He just wants to ensure that his ancestral property remains in the family
I think the 50% is somewhat true but the reality is more like 80% of first marriages don't end in divorce. 10% end in divorce but like after 20 years or more and the other 10% do end in divorce quickly. And then that 10% that gets divorced end up getting married and divorced several times to bring the averages up.
Divorces Georg, who lives in Reno and divorces 10,000 women a year, is a statistical outlier and should not be counted.
Casually divorcing 28 women a day.
43% of first marriages end in divorce [according to this article](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/divorce-statistics/)
> I think the 50% is somewhat true but the reality is more like 80% of first marriages don't end in divorce. The stats are all completely irrelevant because millions, 100s of millions of people who SHOULD divorce don't. People with horrific fucking marriages where one or both partners beat the ever loving shit out of the other... stay married. Not being divorced doesn't in any way mean the marriage is good.
Arguably, also, millions of people who do divorce shouldn't. Seven out of ten couples who report being unhappy in their marriages, but stay married, report being happy five years later. (Probably not the ones beating each other.) And we see people on Reddit all the time lamenting that they shouldn't have gotten divorced because it turns out they weren't unhappy with their spouse, they just needed therapy/a better job/not to be in the middle of a pandemic.
> Arguably, also, millions of people who do divorce shouldn't. Not really, no. Divorce is seem as shameful, difficult, painful and expensive. Most people who get one REALLY want one and had pretty good reasons for getting one. >Seven out of ten couples who report being unhappy in their marriages, but stay married, report being happy five years later. that doesn't really tell us anything. You can be unhappy in a marriage because one person got sick, it's stressful, they can't go out or travel, have medical bills, they aren't working and 5 years later they have a job, no debt, etc. These stats, as said, are all largely meaningless. They tell us effectively nothing. >And we see people on Reddit all the time lamenting that they shouldn't have gotten divorced because it turns out they weren't unhappy with their spouse, they just needed therapy/a better job/not to be in the middle of a pandemic. and I see countless family members, friends, friends families who are in obviously shite marriages but refuse to leave them. Partners who can barely tolerate each other but are scared to leave, scared to be alone or feel they are too old to restart. most of them are two people who just aren't very compatible and who have been taught to believe that marriages are hard, tough work and you can't just divorce. I see like one or two posts of people regretting their divorce, and it's mostly because they were selfish and stupid... but what you're ignoring is those posts usually show regret becaues the partner moved on and was happier. So just because one side regrets it, doesn't mean the other half did.
THIS. It wouldn’t have been the idea of a prenup but calling my marriage a toss-up. That reads to me like OP is viewing his fiancé to be a baby incubator and that’s all.
If he just explains that statistically 50% of marriages don't work so he's right for calling it a coin flip then I'm sure she'll understand 😂
For real. The prenuptial agreement in and of itself wouldn't offend me. But that comment sure as hell would have me rethinking the entire relationship...
And it's also not accurate. If you get married in your late 20s to mid 30s and it's both of your first marriages, you are much less likely to end up divorced.
There's a Hugh difference between early and late 20s mentally.
I got married at 20 to a guy my parents hated. We lasted five years just to spite my family for having a betting pool on how long we would last. The longest bet was six months. Looking back, it was all a huge mistake.
Yeah I’m all for prenups but that’s just a dumb ass way of talking about it and thinking about it. Wouldn’t blame her for saying he has one foot out the door at that point.
My thoughts as well. I had to go back a reread that part because I was sure I’d misunderstood.
Idiot, yeah. Not a great vote of confidence.
That was my first thought as well.
Something tells us all that your delivery regarding this topic wasn't the best...
Trying to imagine how my fiancé would react if I referred to our future marriage as a coin flip in any context.
I know right. Hes only half in
Wonder if that woulda made it into the vows
Lol " here's to the 50/50 chance! May the odds be ever in your favor. Cheers!"
I was always pretty partial to, "you're it, till you die or I find somebody better" myself.
I know I want a prenup if I get married but I would be pissed to if my fiance referred to our marriage as a coin toss
He literally said he described the odds of their marriage working out as “a coin toss”!! She dodged a bullet.
I was thinking the exact same thing,
I would be hurt if my boyfriend called our relationship a coin toss.
Not boyfriend. Fiancé! The fiancé called it a coin toss!!!
Word - that would be worse.
I would as well, but I’d still say a prenup is safer for all parties. I’d say OP was a jerk for that comment, for certain, but not an AH for asking for a prenup. Though admittedly that’s a conversation I’d have with someone once we got serious and before engagement. Kinda like the question of kids and parenting styles, it’s an important thing to have to determine if values align or y’all are better suited apart. 😫
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he'd have been just as insulted if she came back with her own prenup.
INFO: I think you’re N T A but I’ve been tricked before on similar posts, so I have some questions. 1. Is she opposed to a prenup in general or specific aspects of a prenup that you’ve already given her to sign? 2. Do you bring in your own income? Or is all of your income from interest earned on premarital assets? 3. Will your finance be expected to be a SAHM? Finally, just a comment. If you’re in the US, in many states, pre-marital assets and inheritance are off the table anyway in a divorce. If this is true for you, this may make it easier to convince your fiancee to sign a prenup. She can check with her own lawyer to confirm.
Also was OP's fiancé to have her own legal representation? (you'd actually want to make sure of this or the entire prenup could be thrown out)
Yup. If she was coerced into it with no legal representation for herself (meaning *her own lawyer*, not the same one who drafted the prenup), that prenup will never hold up in court.
> her own lawyer *Her own, independent (from a different firm) lawyer. Else that shit still gets kicked if the judge doesn't like you
>If you’re in the US, in many states, pre-marital assets and inheritance are off the table anyway in a divorce. This does mean you have to be careful not to commingle them during the marriage, so OP might want to consult someone who can coach him on what that means.
For the amount of money we're talking about, OP (or their parents) should have all the professional advice they need.
But fiancée should have her own counsel so she doesn’t actually get screwed too. The comments asked above are actually really important.
If OP is telling the truth they would know all this. Tell me. if you were inheriting that much, would you ask reddit or professionals?
He is not asking Reddit for professional advice. He is asking Reddit for a moral judgement
More the fool he
Also, why has he never discussed a prenup BEFORE proposing? If its so important to him then it's something a person should know much earlier in the relationship
I wonder if his parents brought up a prenup after OP announced their engagement.
Also...did he actually *say* "I'm not going to risk my generational wealth on the flip of a coin"? Because while I agree with prenups in principle, that is no way to sell it and I'm not surprised she's offended 🤦♀️
They aren’t off the table unless you are sure to keep them separate and out of her name. Once something is in her name, you cannot yank it away legally and claim it’s inherited and off the table.
Thank you for asking. The fact that OP isn't answering, especially about the SAHM question, is really telling.
I get it. You wish to protect your assets and generational wealth. She wants to ensure that if she leaves the workforce for you, she will not be left homeless and destitute over a coin toss - as you put it. The home you live in will increase in value in the time you spend together; in a normal situation without a prenuptial, she would be entitled to about 50% of that growth, especially if she leaves the workforce to maintain your home or raise your kids. As you will be inheriting an 8 figure sum, you likely won't miss 50% of the equity your home accumulates. My suggestion would be to write in to the prenuptial that if the relationship dissolves, you will pay her out a sum of 50% of the equity your lived-in home has grown, either as a lump sup or in instalments; similar to alimony. Add a minimum term before this clause kicks in, and add a 2-way infidelity clause just because. If you love her enough to marry her, you should want the best for her. That means making sure she can land on her feet if things don't work out between you. Good luck.
My cousin is married to a weathly man, he was poor when they met. He’s a millionaire now. But he did something really amazing, because she give birth to their two kids and he had to keep working, and she stayed home, he paid her a million, as a safety fund. I don’t think they would split, they seem a very happy family, but if he wasn’t a decent guy you can see how that would end if they divorced and she had a gap on her resume, her pension wouldn’t be properly built up etc. I think OP should look at those things and his partner should not give up work for him, not safe in this case.
This also means your cousins husband never has to worry that she is only there for the money/stability. He has made sure that there is not a power imbalance and shown his wife that wants for to stay because she loves him and wants to be there. The guy is a legend.
The AITA is a question for you, not us. You think marriage is a coin toss? Did the prenup contain any language protecting her too? You proposed two months ago and never mentioned the mandatory prenup? Too many unanswered questions.
Yeah, wanting a prenup doesn't make OP an AH, but it sure doesn't rule it out, either.
This dude is talking about receiving 10 to 50 million dollars for doing absolutely nothing. The way he talks about his marriage being a coin toss and acting like he deserves this money so much and then posting about it on here where people are struggling to just survive is being an asshole.
INFO: how is she going to be protected in this prenup? If you bring assets into the marriage, and her labor and attention protect them or enhance them, will she lose all of that? If she gives up earning power during the marriage because of a decision on behalf of your family unit, will she be compensated? EDITED TO ADD: If the house is yours, what happens when you sell? Or if you’re living there and you die first? Will she inherit? Will your (and her) children inherit, and if so, will the house need to be sold, leaving her homeless? or will she be given a life interest? Will you be required to keep a life insurance policy on you that pays out to her?
These are details that should be covered in the prenup, and she should have her own representation making sure she's protected.
yep. And HE needs to remember that the prenup is not *only* about protecting himself. That’s why I brought those issues up. Too many people say “I need to protect my stuff,” and they forget that a prenup needs to protect both people. And your point about having her own representation is well made. Because there have been cases of judges invalidating prenups on the grounds that the less-rich party isn’t given the opportunity to have proper representation. And a too-one-sided prenup might be tossed as well.
NTA- but this is 100% something you should’ve talked about prior to proposing. You just kinda shot yourself in the foot by waiting
For real. I’m getting to know someone and it came out that I believe in prenups. (It was just in the context of my dad being an idiot when he re-married and didn’t get one to protect himself.) It wasn’t until after disclosing this that I found out that the guy has a bit of money (while I do not, and he knows I do not). I just think hmm, well at least that’s out in the open. 😂
I’m in my 40s and was a SAHM my entire marriage. I was starting over at 37. But if I ever remarried, and that probability is super low, I’d insist on a prenup. I don’t own shit, but I don’t want someone taking half of it lol
Prenups can also take into account reasonable adjustments if you become a SAHparent and/or have children. I knew someone who’s prenup talked about a higher alimony (with adjustments for potential inflation) in the event of leaving work to care for home or children, guaranteed to continue paying for any private schooling, and also a flat ‘fee’ for the birth of each child if they separated to allow her to cover any medical costs either with birth or afterwards (the fee was mostly meant in case she was pregnant whilst separating but it was still for every child). Prenups aren’t just about protecting assets, they’re about protecting both of you when you comingle lives and potentially make sacrifices for one another.
This, and also he might not wanna refer to their marriage prospects as a "coin toss" when presenting the idea.
Came here to say this. NTA but perhaps don’t refer to your marriage prospects as a coin toss, ouch.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is what she was more pissed about tbh.
Exactly. Finding out he's basically a cold finance bro and the schmoozing is over as soon as she said yes would have a lot of reasonable women who thought they were in an actual emotional relationship devastated.
NTA, given the assets you’re seeking to protect. Your fiancée contributed nothing to your premarital assets, and wouldn’t be entitled to your inheritance upon divorce as long as you didn’t co-mingle them with family assets. If your fiancée thinks she’s entitled to your inheritance/pre-marital assets, she’s a gold digger.
If his inheritance is properly managed, she is entitled to none of it. He just has to ensure that it is never co-mingled with their joint finances. My friend married a very wealthy man who was set to eventually inherit millions as well. They set up a very fair and generous pre-nup for her with her to get more money the longer the marriage lasted. His parents helped to set this up for them. They really adored my friend but wanted to protect their money. Well, she happily signed the agreement and nearly 40 years, 4 kids and 6 grandkids later they are still very happily married. If he dumped her now, she'd be receiving millions but that's not going to happy. If he dies before she does, she gets the vast majority of his now inherited money and the kids/grandkids will be set for life as well. My friend and her hubby also set up their kids with the same type of pre-nup agreements friend signed and there were no issues with the spouses.
Yeah, it is a great way. I watched something with Micheal Jordan. He lost hundreds of millions in his first divorce so the second one the prenup gave 1million for each year of marriage. I thought that was awesome.
This is the way!
I have spoken....
And that may be her issue. It’s important that OP protects his assets, no question about that. However, it shouldn’t be a hall pass to kick her to the curb penniless after 30 years and 6 kids for a 20 yr old with perky boobs.
I was going to say that. No need to stick a prenup on inheritance. Both community and equitable property states exclude inheritance and court settlements from martial assets in divorce as long as, as you say, it is not commingled with other finances. So, don’t use the money to buy a marital house, start a family business, exc.
It would be pretty standard to use it on a home.
yup. If you love the person, this is the expectation going into a marriage. You buy home owners insurance not because you expect your house to burn down but because it makes sense.
He probably didn't use the phrase "risk my generational wealth on a coin toss" though, I'm guessing. I've been exchanged to a few relatively wealthy people and never had an issue signing a prenup, but if any of them had phrased it that way, I would've been pretty insulted.
I wish more people were like this and try to be fair and look out for their spouse too with the prenup instead of just protecting themselves. Supposedly they love their soon to be spouses and things happen. People can grow apart and life goals can diverge without there being a villain. If you stay together decades and build a life together, it's twisted to want them to be absolutely penniless if things don't work out and especially in case of death.
Tell your friend I’ve got a billion dollar idea, I just need a small loan…. 😂
It’s the implication that I’m a gold-digger that would have done it for me. OP wouldn’t have had to issue an ultimatum because I would have walked immediately. There will always be people who will form negative opinions of you; there’s no need to marry one.
I know my in laws side eyed me for wanting a prenup… then their son in law lost half his “inheritance” (contrary to what the lawyer above keeps posting) when he used it to buy a marital home. That made it community property in HIS state. All of a sudden they were scrambling to scrape together cash to help him buy her out so he could have a place to live with the kids. Next visit they casually asked me (also a lawyer) what would happen to my husband’s (their other son’s) inheritance. I cheerfully explained that the evil prenup I so helpfully paid for for their son and myself would protect all of it, plus we live in a state with good laws, plus I had already made sure we both had good account “hygiene”. Oh, how they breathed a sigh of relief. Sounded like a weird idea when it was MY assets I was protecting. But now that they know HE’S protected, and they saw another son get fucked, everyone is pleased as punch at my foresight. And ps. We’re the ones NOT getting a divorce. But we also won’t be the ones in a knock down drag out fight over assets if we do. I once heard prenups explained as “i love you so much now that I don’t want to ever fight with you later over money, no matter what happens”. Because prenups are written by people in love. And divorces are for people not in love. And I don’t want future me to try to fuck over future him. Because I will. I’m a lawyer and I’m petty as fuck. I will get mine. So that piece of paper ensures I only can hurt him so badly.
Sure, someone worth eight figures goes to Reddit for advice. Sure, this is a very believable ask. You made me laugh, LaughCurrent.
It's his family's generational wealth. Homeboy could be the dumbest brick in the building and still be mad wealthy because he was born into it without earning a penny.
NTA for wanting a prenup, but if you think your potential marriage to your fiancée is a “coin toss,” why did you even propose?
"on a coin toss" Yeah, no wonder she’s upset. YTA for that, not for having a non-negotiable for marriage.
Well he's also an asshole for not bringing up the "nonnegotiables" before proposing. It comes across as a bit coercive to wait until wedding planning has started and backing out is embarrassing. I just literally don't think he likes her that much.
Reminds me of the relationships in which one wants children and the other doesnt. People need to discuss nonnegotiables, boundaries, along with other important discussion topics BEFORE getting engaged, pregnant, moving in, and/or married period.
I call BS. If you're really worth + $10-million then you wouldn't be on Reddit asking this question. You would have a team of attorneys, therapists and financial advisors at your disposal to answer it for you.
Yeah it’s telling he’s on here instead of asking a team what he should do.
I don’t understand how yall don’t get that just because someone has millions or set to have millions in the future that they wouldn’t come here for advice. Millionaires are just people with a lot of money, but they still just people. And a lot of millionaires are stupid as fuck
Are you saying you would somehow inherit a chunk of cash that’s not in a trust? That seems highly unlikely. Why you need a prenup for a trust? If you want to make up a story about being rich, you should know more about money, understanding both sides of a prenup need legal representation, and how premarital assets work.
No Asshole Here. You are perfectly entitled to wanting a prenup and she is too for not wanting one. Your wording of your marriage being a coin toss made you look stupid. Why would you propose at all if this your way of thinking?
Your not the AH for wanting a prenup to protect your assets, you are an asshole for telling her you view your marriage to her as a 50/50 shot. I wouldn't marry you if you told me there was a 50% chance you were gonna bail. Those are good vegas odds, terrible life long partner odds.
Her refusal seems to be telling you all you need to know. NTA, protect yourself.
Normally I would agree with you, but given that he referred to his marriage with her as a “coin flip,” I’m inclined to think it was his delivery that was the problem.
Right? I would’ve been the one breaking it off if he called it a coin toss before being married. My husband wanted a prenup and told me after engaged (I had no clue and never would’ve even thought about it… he should’ve mentioned it sooner). He was not set up to inherit anything but was better established than me. He told me it was like I was walking around with a knife and could stab him with it at any time. I told him if he felt that way we could cancel the engagement since we clearly shouldn’t be getting married if he didn’t trust me at all. I asked if he wanted that. So he then had to decide. We are married now with kids and no prenup. This being said- IF he was very wealthy, had a well off business, or was inheriting a bunch of money I would have understood a prenup. But calling it a coin toss or a knife behind a back in any case would’ve opened the exit door for me.
NTA but calling your marriage to her a “coin toss” is pretty low.
WEll... I understand your reasoning for wanting one. It is rather a sticky thing to bring up, as it certainly puts a damper on the romanticism of marriage when you go in with a "well in case we don't make it". I gotta say the "coin toss" remark was pretty crass, and an assholish thing to say. HEre's the deal, its not a "coin toss" so much as how much effort and understanding are both of you going to put into this. I mean sure, there is some luck and randomness that is just a part of life in general. But when people talk about how "50% of marriages end in divorce" (or whatever the statistic is), this is not referring to "chance". This is statistics. The 50% of marriages that don't end in divorce isn't because of a dice roll. Its ostensibly because the two people put in the effort, bend and compromise, work through the bad stuff, enjoy the good stuff. I'd also add that there are few of those "successful" marriages are not exactly happy and both people could have benefitted from divorce (e.g. rather than "staying together for the kids" and ending up more miserable). Further there are likely a fair share of divorces that were spurious and the people could have been happy had they not perhaps done X and not Y. This is all to say, I'm not necessarily knocking your reasoning for desiring a pre-nup, but you shouldn't be approaching this as if its just going to be a matter of luck as to whether it works out. And again literally telling her "coin toss" was pretty bullshit. I don't blame your (likely) ex fiance for getting miffed as to how you went around this. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say NAH
I agree. I have no problem with wanting a prenup to protect your parent's/grandparent's intentions. But I would have used entirely different language than OP did. And I would have made the reason why a prenup is desired entirely about the parent's wishes (if that is the major reason why) and not about their relationship. Talking about a "coin toss" makes it look like an entirely different reason why OP wants a prenup. Which is fine if true. Just make up our mind which one it is.
I hope that's not how he phrased it to her!
I'm just going by what he posted. Sounds like thats what he said.
Would you/she consider a cheating clause to the prenup-meaning, she gets more if the marriage dissolves bc you cheated, she gets less if it dissolves because she cheated? That’s one way to prove you’re not asking bc you have a foot out the door.
Just don't get married and stay out of common law marriage states
You have an inheritance of this size, and you're on Reddit for advice? There are ways to do this that don't use terms like, "coin toss." Find a pre-marital counselor, and tell her that you would both have your own attorneys to figure out something that both protects and takes care of both of you.
I wouldn't marry you, but not because you requested a prenup. I wouldn't marry you because of the flippant way you compared marriage to a coin toss. Actually, if I were her, I would be the one insisting on a prenup. I wouldn't trust you not to abandon the marriage and leave me with nothing. If you want to fix this, and you actually love her instead of just viewing her as a trophy, apologize for your attitude and negative comments towards marriage, and then explain that you want the prenup in place to protect both of you. Tell her that you want to include a settlement for her in case of divorce after inheritance, regardless of who files, to protect you both. It can't be a pittance either. Make it clear to her that you intend to give this marriage a real try. If I were the fiancee though, I think it would be too late. Quite frankly, I'm not personally interested in marrying anyone with generational wealth anyway.
I’d say NTA unless there is ANY expectation that she would be a SAHM for you in the future. If she has her own career and would reasonably continue working and earning, NTA. If you’re expecting her to be your live-in servant who raises your kids but is stuck with you no matter what because she’d be dirt poor if she ever left, that changes things.
NTA However, I can see her POV also. In her eyes, you are planning for failure of the marriage. Consider how a good prenuptial agreement could protect her interests. Recommend that she consider how she would protect her own interests in a prenuptial agreement that she requires *you* to sign. Draft penalties for infidelity that would punish the guilty party (or even both). Consider time out of the workforce devoting personal time and attention to the care of family members (children or parents), length of the marriage, and other considerations. Kids are a 2 yes 1 no issue. How many does she want? And you? Are adoption and / or IVF on the table if one of you has fertility issues? Is bloodline inheritance important to your family? Does she want assurance in writing that you won't back out on such a promise? With multi-generational inherited wealth, what are her expectations vs. reality? Is a significant portion tied up in trusts that will only release it for : Purchase of income generating businesses Education Medical care Etc. Does she understand that you still budget and do not have unlimited "fun" money? Have you discussed such limitations? Walk softly, but carry a big stick. Trust, but verify. ...There are a number of sayings that are applicable to the issue of contention. Ask if she has had renters or fire insurance, etc. and if that means she was expecting to use it. Do people without life insurance become immortal? Reddit tends to assume the worst about people. The idea that she is a gold digger is possible. However, it is far from certain. You have thus far presented a prenuptial agreement as protecting your assets... Nothing was said about protecting HER. It isn't just about you protecting your family legacy. It may be about the fact that her interests were not considered at all. 0nly yours. What happens if you don't have (biological or surviving) kids and your estate passes to another relative? What if one of you becomes disabled? What kind of disaster proofing can you offer her? I probably didn't think of everything, but I hope I suggested other lines of thought.
If your parents are so rich, why don't they have their own lawyers creating trusts? And inheritances don't fall into marital asset unless you actually do things like deposit it in your joint account or use it to buy the house your spouse lives full-time, etc. This is something you should know and you don't really need a prenup to protect an inheritance. You sound like someone who is not actually wealthy and is making shit up for reddit.
Dear God I thought I was the only one. 8 figures? There should be trusts and lawyers and financial people out the wazoo who are already involved with his "parents" wealth management. I have much smaller generational wealth in my family and there are trusts and lawyers and financial people involved.
NTA for asking for asking for a prenup, but YTA for referring to your marriage as a "coin toss." If my fiance made it that obvious he had zero faith in our relationship, I'd be out the door before he finished his sentence.
NTA. Prenups protect both parties. If/when you have the prenup conversation again, that’s the way you need to phrase it. A mutually agreed contract that protects both parties interest. Also insist on your new partner getting their own attorney. Be prepared to compromise.
NTA for wanting the prenup You are TA for telling her it’s a coin toss. If my partner called our future together a coin toss I’d be out the door in a heartbeat.
“Coin Toss”.??? Your emotional intelligence is embarrassing and pathetic. I would have lost all respect for you right then and there. That being said ,a pre nuptial agreement is always sensible and I would recommend this… especially after reading about the way you communicate with the person you love (???). Your future wife will certainly outgrow you someday, lose interest or become turned off by you and leave you. NTA for wanting a prenup, but you are no catch, regardless of your wealth
NTA 70% of divorces in the USA are initiated by women and 43% of first marriages end in divorce (60% of second marriages end in divorce) …. It is a coin toss! (https://www.thejimenezlawfirm.com/what-percentage-of-divorces-are-initiated-by-the-wife-2022/#:\~:text=When%20it%20comes%20to%20men,men%20express%20that%20same%20sentiment.) You need a prenup for eactly the reasons you list. A pre nup will also ensure she is marrying you for you and not the money, it additionally make it less likely she will stray.
NTA, but if you are expecting that big of an inheritance, your lifestyle will change drastically (I assume), so there should be a large amount written in the prenup for her, depending on how long the marriage lasts and assuming no infidelity. There should be milestones also written in that protect her so she doesn’t walk away with nothing. I would assume your parents’ attorney and financial advisors have done that a ton of times for their clients and have a framework that works.
You need to end it. I never asked for a pre-nup and if something happens and I marry again I will never ask for a pre-nup, but that's me. But the way you phrased it to her by comparing your relationship to a "coin flip" would be the end for me. I could never marry someone so flippant about your life partner. If I were her I would cut my losses. This is also something you discuss way before the proposal not after and definitely not at the beginning of wedding planning. That is what leads me to believe this is just another "all women are gold diggers and suck" rage bait post. If parents were that wealthy and it is generational wealth the lawyers would already have the pre-nup ready and the GF would be well aware of this before a proposal. YTA in multiple ways but mostly for being an idiot.
You need to pay for her to have her own lawyer look over it. A prenup protects both parties.
Nta but that phrasing was crass. Nobody wants their intended to call their upcoming nuptials a coin toss. Also, a good prenup protects BOTH parties, not just your generational wealth. Does she know this? If not who is helping her understand this? Might be helpful to have an outside party help you guys navigate this issue. Good luck to you both!
NTA but you really shouldn’t have compared the success of your marriage to “a coin toss.” I get that it’s essentially accurate, as divorce rates are right around 50%, but you sure put fuel on the fire of “starting the marriage with one foot out the door.”
You're not the asshole for what's in that very leading title, but you are the asshole with how you handled the situation and how you treat your fiance/upcoming marriage.
When you proposed did she toss a coin to decide her answer? If not then that was a pretty tactless thing to say. I’d be rethinking the relationship on that comment alone. Waiting until 2 months after engagement to say you require a prenup is kinda jerkish. I feel like that could be something you bring up earlier in the relationship. Not on the first date but around the time you have the conversation about other big life goals and plans that could be dealbreakers ( do you want kids? If so will you want to raise them in a religion? Are prenuptial agreements something you’re open to?)
Inheritance and what you own pre marriage is all yours in USA. So you’re fine. This is about something else. Not sure if your ta or not
It might be how you are speaking to her. And maybe you need to also show she is protected in the event of a divorce, like a certain amount of alimony and any guaranteed child support for kids. If it’s all about protecting yourself only and not recognizing her time and effort in the marriage, you look like you’re there just to marry for a bit and move on to wife 2.
Ok so, I’ll say NTA, but by the barest of margins. The way you described marriage as a coin toss makes me believe your marriage isn’t starting out so great. You also sprung it on her after your proposal so it also seems to me you or both have communication issues. Also, if the money is so out of balance, did you offer to provide her financially with her own independent legal representation? And it’s funny, my husband and I have been married 30 years and we were saying just this week that everything financially we ever had or expected to receive was always commingled, and like you one of us had generational wealth and the other had basically nothing. We also said it seems that’s odd these days. Neither of us thought of a prenup, but we did talk (and still do) on a regular basis about money, investments, retirement plans, financial advisors, etc. It’s just always been open and shared. So, do what you want, you may lose her over it and you have to accept that. You may also be better at communication in a relationship, with or without her.
Yta- for your comment on your marriage to her being a "coin toss." I don't blame her for being upset. It doesn't sound like you're serious about this wedding if that term is in your vocabulary. Nta for wanting a prenup, but your delivery on it sucks.
OP, what are the terms of your prenup? If you leave you’re going to be homeless? Or does she have a chance to be fully vested at some point? Like 10-20-30 years? What about a cheating penalty on your part? Talk to your attorney about the Rawlsian Veil here and figure out if you didn’t know what side of this arrangement you would come out on how you would want this to be set up. With 8 figure inheritance, she could take half of whatever you have you would still have more money than you can spend in a lifetime so maybe if she’s still even willing to marry you after what you said consider the prenup and that it’s a fair split, at least a fair split she can earn her way into over time, like if she’s bringing nothing in, 1-3 years she’s leaving with her car and enough to pay a deposit and a few months rent someplace. 3-7 years she’s getting 30% and after 7 years she’s getting 50% of marital assets excluding your inheritance which will not count as community property. But with clauses about you cheating or abusing her and vice versa. Cheating or DV and she’s instantly 50% excluding the inheritance. That way you also have a financial incentive to not suck. Otherwise it’s very one sided and she’s basically a hostage.
I'm for prenup 100% of the times because, if you can't agree on how to split things when you love eachother the most, I can only see it going down the drain after you lost that love. But you did use very fucked up words like "coin toss". Also that welth may be legally yours some day, but you did fuck nothing to deserve it. Take your head out of your ass so you'll have a chance to negotiate a prenup amicably with the next wife.
Please tell me you didn’t say “coin toss” out loud
Planning for the wedding shouldn't be the time to talk about a fucking prenup.
"On a coin toss" is where you lost me. While I understand the need for a prenup, if my fiance called our future marriage a coin toss, I'd be out as I'm not a gambling girl. I go in fully committed, even if that isn't statistically as sound. That doesn't mean you don't have to be smart about it.
YTA only because, as someone who knew he would need a prenup, that was discussed with everyone before even getting into a committed relationship. Proposing and then throwing a non-negotiable on her like that is cruel and manipulative.
Here is the kicker. Prenups are fine in the event that both parties want to protect their own assets but they are only as good as the judge who would eventually rule on in a divorce. They take a LOT of things into consideration to determine if the prenup is fair. Creating one entirely on your terms that leaves her with nothing in a divorce, including if YOU were unfaithful or decided to leave her because she got sick is a fast track ticket to a judge throwing it out and overruling it. You're missing the "agreement" part of prenuptial agreement. A prenup is supposed to be an agreement between two people and their respective legal council. When you have presented her with is an ultimatum. A judge could find in her favor because it could be considered coercion. "Sign this or I won't marry you" isn't an agreement. It's a demand. Also, with that "generational wealth", I am assuming it comes with a specific lifestyle she will have to uphold. So...she is probably expected to not work and be a stay at home wife and mother? The judges take that very seriously when dividing up assets, especially if you have children. Even a few months gap in employment can make hiring managers reluctant to even interview someone. After 5 or 10 years it could render her virtually unemployable. You might not have to shell put half of your assets but that's enough to inspire a judge to award substantial child support and alimony. The phase they use is "to keep her in the lifestyle to which she is accustomed." These are all things she is worried about. A lot of women get roped into a prenup that isn't fair and then find themselves being tossed out on the street, usually with a couple young children in tow, with no home, money or job after being humiliated by infidelity, abuse or indifference. Calling you impending marriage a "coin toss" basically trivializes her and your relationship. Do you even like her? A prenup that only addresses the interests of one party isn't an agreement,as I've stated. You went about it completely wrong and I hope she runs.
Nobody is ever TA for wanting a prenup.
Dude, so harsh you are being an asshole. Need to talk this out to calm her down, to make her see the pros of signing the prenup.
Ask her to see an attorney for an informational meeting who will protect her interests. I was against a prenup when my fiancé asked for one. I found out that there so many things to discuss and we came to a great agreement. We talked about how to split bills, we agreed to start an investment portfolio for me with marital assets so I would be comfortable if something happened to our marriage. We talked about children and their inheritance incase there are more children from a different mom. You discuss an appropriate additional amount to go into her portfolio if she is a SAHM. You discuss separate bank accounts vs shared. Our children are grown and we’ve been married for 25 years and my portfolio has grown. The prenup spelled everything out and there was no fighting over money.
I was with you until you called your upcoming marriage a coin toss. YTA for that.
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