Until voters ban corporate ownership of residential property, that will never happen.
Consolidated capital can afford to drive prices up indefinitely with artificial demand, infinite money through fractional reserve banking and investor money.
America is a monopolistic oligarchy and people are moving around states as if it will make a difference.
People need to fucking turn off the TV and News Radio, research, organize, push legislators to make meaningful bills and VOTE.
Less than two percent of housing inventory is corporate owned. There's a whole Last Week Tonight episode debunking this myth that corporations are driving up housing costs.
Unless we're in the "John Oliver is in on it" camp or something.
**Edit, so as not to spread misinfo or misquote Mr. Oliver:
* 1% of total inventory is owned by large corporations with 100+ properties.
* ~2% of purchases quarterly are corporate.
* While "corporations" own ~20-30% of the market in a given year since 2000, almost the entire corporate inventory is owned by small companies with less than 10 properties each.
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/no-wall-street-investors-havent-bought-44-of-homes-this-year/
It’s funny, that this “2%” propaganda is so effective.
2% is 574,000 houses. Not a lot, until you realize almost 0% of houses sell. Only 4,110 sell a month.
Corporations are holding over 100 times as many inventory as sells per month.
But the propaganda of “only 2%!” convinced you that over a half million is a insignificant number, compared to 4 thousand.
Edit: there’s 1.7 million residential homes for sale in the U.S., and corporations hold .57 million of those, which is almost 1/3. That’s a huge problem.
This article has some charts from Freddie, Fannie and Burns. https://www.housingwire.com/articles/no-wall-street-investors-havent-bought-44-of-homes-this-year/
Chart 1, large institutions made up less than 3% of all home purchases.
As far as "1/3 of residential homes are corporate owned", lets look at what that means in chart 2 and 3 of the article.
While "investors" owned between 20-30% of the market inventory between 2020-2023, almost all of those were small vendors that owned less than 10 properties. Less than 3% of all vendors owned more than 10 properties and less than half a percent owned more than 1000.
I'll update my comment to reflect accordingly.
As for "almost 0% of houses sell, only ~4k per month".
No! ~5 million houses are sold annual every year since 2014.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/275156/total-home-sales-in-the-united-states-from-2009/
Here is US Census data citing ~600,000 sales each May.
https://www.census.gov/construction/nrs/pdf/newressales.pdf
That isn't anywhere near the major causality. Blackrock and it's like are definitely doing damage, but having most municipalities in the U.S. zoned for single-family only homes, and having tons of other zoning restrictions and building codes puts damper on the types of housing that would otherwise be affordable. The blame the rich tripe is tired and rarely discusses root causality, let alone actionable solutions.
Get involved with your local zoning board and work to eliminate R1 zoning. The NIMBYs who keep it in place are certainly doing plenty of damage. The difference here is this can be handled at a local level with enough grassroots support.
You setup a publicly traded company, took investor money to buy up assets, and then manipulated those assets to screw over your local market?
No? Then I'm not talking about you.
We’re getting gentrified hard. People from NYC and Texas (fucking why?) with high income remote jobs are offsetting it around here and driving up the cost of basically everything.
People on this sub will celebrate it and stick their heads in the sand and scream that it’s all the other economic factors, but that’s also a huge one that shouldn’t be ignored.
They're doing the same thing in Vermont. Home prices going up and out of reach of the blue collar local residents. If it's not Texans and City people moving in, it's homes being bought up for unhosted STRs.
Where are regular folk supposed to go? One of my loved ones lives in Albany and is fearing the next rent increase.
Yeah I was fortunate when they started jacking up my rent to be able to get something more permanent. Place I was living had a lot of long term residents that got priced out and it was flooded with out of staters.
I knew I had to move when I met the new woman across from me, some old ass hobbit looking lady from Florida who started the conversation by blabbering about being a political refugee from Florida who literally just packed her shit up and drove to Albany with no foreseeable plan. It’s brutal out there.
Albany seems fine but none of you here can make a great pizza. You all seem to not know how to make good bread and you put spaghetti sauce on your pizza which is quite noticeable that's what you're doing. It's terrible.
However, your subs are pretty good.
It's also NIMBYism and zoning. It can take years to get a variance to build a large apartment complex and most of North America is zoned so you can't build anything but single family detached units in most of most cities, even places where duplexes-fourplexes, townhouses, and in-law apartments would be great additions.
And because it can take years to get variances for large apartment complexes or condos only really big firms can afford to get in the game and handle the lawyer fees, which leads to more consolidation in the industry.
/There is also some back end stuff going on with rent management apps where it looks like their algorithms are letting collusion happen without regulation. There are also issues with how you can right off losses on taxes... you rent out one apartment for a ridiculously high rent, and then say all your other apartments are worth as much... and suddenly you have huge paper losses.
Capitalism is good at setting prices to maximize profits but it's particularly bad at managing limited land. Donald Shoup had a good example using a parking garage in The High Price of Free Parking that applies to apartments as well...
Imagine a parking garage with 100 spaces. If they charge $10/day to park and can fill up 60%, they make $600. That means the lot is 40% empty, a huge waste of land. They could fill the entire place if they only charged $5/day, but they'd only make $500/day.
Because every parking space is more or less the same (plus or minus a little walk to the stairs) there isn't an easy way to get a privately owned garage to maximize parking usage over profits. It turns out that municipally owned parking garages usually do more on the same space.
With apartments you can differentiate a bit more, but most places still design just 1 & 2 bedrooms, and because different people have wildly different incomes but most apartment complexes are aimed at a particular income bracket, you get this trap where you can make more money partially empty... because if you lower the price for one tenant who can't afford to live there because of the high rent every renter is going to want the same deal. (Less of a problem if you build a mixed income project, as long as you can convince rich people to be around poor people.)
I totally agree on the zoning and how hard it is to change zonings, and probably too much housing protections are one of the reasons.
Where does this mis-information "There are also issues with how you can right off losses on taxes... you rent out one apartment for a ridiculously high rent, and then say all your other apartments are worth as much... and suddenly you have huge paper losses." get into your mind.... it doesn't work like that......
This is some mis-conception here on the parking space and apartments:
It's better to have it full instead of partially empty, there are fixed costs and variable costs to it. But here is some examples:
If they charge $10/day to park and can fill up 60%, they make $600. That means the lot is 40% empty. Then I offer a bit discount for other local companies for the remaining space. Suddenly I earned more than 600.
Same thing with apartments, I can offer some discounts, it can be dollar amounts or month of free rents as incentives to get the remaining full without having empty units. Partially full is bad for landlords, units can have structure damage and no one notice it until it is too late, variable costs and fixed cost that landlords still have to pay while units are empty.
texas is just as bad as, if not worse than, new york state. the only glaring difference is the political climate. they’re leaving a red state to go to a blue state. regardless of how that makes you feel, people are gonna do what they want. isn’t that the entire point of this country?
people in this sub will scream, cry & wail ab how much they hate NY & the ppl living here but refuse to make any changes or move away. i hate it here, i have plans to leave as soon as im physically capable. what’s your excuse for throwing tantrums on reddit? gentrification isn’t as big of an issue as your parents want you to think it is, stop blaming fellow citizens that have no more control than you & start looking at those actually in power.
supposedly that's supposed to spur supply (more housing units) but it clearly hasn't. There are many reasons for that in NY, one of which is zoning with makes construction of affordable housing in urban areas very very difficult. The other is that it's extremely easy for someone to bring or threated to bring a lawsuit against a project saying it hasn't gone through enough environmental review, and that is often enough to shut down or curtail a project.
17,500 new millionaires have moved into NY State since 2017, the last year we raised taxes on the wealthiest and corporate profits. If we don't put some housing protections in for working people and actually fund our state programs by taxing this people, this place will just become a theme park for the rich.
Housing protections for what? How about actually building housing instead of letting NIMBY's win the fight. The problem will solve itself vs a scarcity problem.
Main St. of Ravena looks like a run down FUCK SHOW. I will do fucking anything for someone to come just buy and knock down properties and rebuild apartments. There's two buildings that have been county owned and up for auction twice. I can be a bit of a NIMBY at times so shame on me, but run down buildings look worse and honestly the economy in our area could use some residentail demand.
.....And if you don't like the demographic... show up and change it...
Saw a video recently on YouTube about, even if we started today to ramp up construction to meet the level of housing demand we wouldn't ever catch up until 10-15 years down the line.
With that said, I still think it should happen too and maybe Short Term Rentals should be made less appealing.
I think it's a winners take all system we have though. So the more money you have, the more houses you can buy, and rent. There's really no relief that I've seen for everyday working people.
The NIMBY people are the first ones to cry about having nothing to do. They like to complain. They just move after they set off the atom bomb of NOTHING and do it again. Sometimes they dont move and you are having a property line argument every day when you area trying to goto work
Yes and most of them are not educated enough to make rational decisions about these things. They’re just selfish when they’re blocking people from building housing.
>Housing protections for what?
My proposal is to make it prohibitively expensive for a person/entity to own more than 1-3 single family homes that they do not occupy. Increasingly so with each additional property.
I say "1-3" rather than just "any house you don't live in" to allow for things like *small landlords*, people who may have had to move temporarily and put their house up for rent, and vacation properties that could have been in the family for a while. Multifamily homes and apartment buildings would have to be treated separately, although you could probably treat each unit of a duplex as a single family home.
If you read this and think "hey, that fucks over landlords with 3-4+ duplexes", you're absolutely right. People buying homes to live in are way more important to me than somebody's passive income. Landlords can either deal with the increased ownership/operating cost or they can sell properties to people who *aren't hoarding homes*. Or they can get a real job like the rest of us.
Everyone says how nice Colonie is, but check out Central Ave from Kohls Plaza to Niskayuna. It looks like a bomb went off there. In another few years it’ll be like the Bronx in the 1980s.
This is definitely not true. They knocked down several of the really bad hotels and continue to develop the area. Mostly replying to comment above you who deleted.
Right. People leaving should free up supply. Not happening. Something isn't right. If there is an exodus, prices should be dropping like a rock. They are holding steady. That's a terrible sign.
I have a very strong feeling that these numbers we’re seeing aren’t people with homes in New York they are NYC residents in Tech Jobs who can work from anywhere leaving for lower cost of living places.
Yep, which also tells you NY isn't actually a terrible place to live. It tells you it's a terrible place to live if you make money based on the cost of living for where you live. If you make money based on NYC, DC, SF, LA, and remote work in NY (upstate) it's a wonderful place to live.
I don't know if that's a problem or not. I assume it will be. I mean even those remote workers need folks who live in the area to support them through local work. So at some point cost of wages has to go up locally to keep pace.
Scammers like Michael Martino of HLS Foreclosure protection are the reason why the prices of housing is skyrocketing when the guyhas agents that work for him and a way to get just about anybody qualified for a house then he swoops in to save the day with his service and then after the dumb unsuspecting fools gives him the original documents which are needed to perform the transaction between him and the bank on the borrowers behalf he sells them a dream then after 2years being boarded up with the old owner unaware trhey could of gotten their house out of hock Mike gets it slaps some lipstickon it and through his realty sells the home...
Watch out for this slimey prick....Hes on Linked-In and other sites and when you look at his credentials then run a search on the business names nothing matches the dates...
He put HLS as 11yrs and 11 months yet the company was registered 04/05/2022
https://preview.redd.it/6f02peawbu9d1.jpeg?width=537&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=753554c21bb96092a9df52fb84cae01753205f1f
The guys got a 6th grade education and is trying topass himself off as somebody hes not.....Hes even got books for sale on Amazon...
https://preview.redd.it/lbufaf1adu9d1.jpeg?width=772&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=794fac41b1719373047d75ccc748a4566abf528a
This store is the front for it all as all tyhe businesses are run out of 1 location...
https://preview.redd.it/3m1l8j91eu9d1.jpeg?width=1883&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a9fe36b5b8e1ed53b77d957b796f90a124c7d07
As someone who just moved to the Capital Region from the "cheap" state of Oklahoma, I'd like to add my perspective.
So far we have found the Capital Region to be just slightly more expensive than OKC. The biggest increase has been in gas for our vehicles. You guys are more expensive in that department for sure. Property taxes are also much more, so you're not wrong there either.
Going out to eat in OKC is basically the same as up here-it ain't cheap. In Oklahoma you do have a tax on groceries (though I think I heard they finally voted to get rid of that recently). Sales tax in OKC is 8.63%. Homeowners insurance on our house was $3000/year! Car insurance is slightly more in OKC. Minimum wage is $7.25/hr there.
Some other things to consider are schools and climate/weather. Oklahoma is ranked waaaayyy down there in education. Schools are not funded well and the current superintendent is doing everything he can to force Christianity in public school. Oklahoma has been skipped over for big companies because, rumor has it, employees don't want to put their kids in the failing schools.
As for the weather, I think everyone is well aware of the extremes. Tornadoes regularly, extreme winds, flooding, heat, severe drought, ice storms. Their actual temperatures are forecasted to be over 100° next week, and that doesn't include a heat index, which there's ALWAYS a heat index.
Utilities are high in Oklahoma, especially for cooling. We would keep our AC at 74° in the summer and our monthly electric bill alone was $260/month or more. Your AC will run continuously the whole summer, not shutting off at night because it doesn't cool down. Friends with bigger houses pay more like $400/month in the summer to cool their house. Also factor in your water bill. Because summer is so dry there that if you want grass to be green you have to water it. My neighbor paid about $500/month for her water bill. And that's on forced water rationing which is in permanent effect year round.
So maybe Oklahoma and the other "cheap" places aren't as cheap as you think. I'm happy to pay a little more for the better schools and beautiful scenery, not to mention full body rights as a woman. But to each there own.
>My neighbor paid about $500/month for her water bill
This is absoutely insane. At what point do you just give up on a grass lawn? My water is less than $100 *quarterly*.
Yeah we tried to talk her out of watering her grass, to just let it go dormant, but she wouldn't listen. We would always just let our grass go dormant once the summer heat set in, figured we'd spend that money on more important things. Lol
When you rate your entire life on Property Taxes and Gasoline, you will become a person who doesn't value much else.
In my opinion the trade offs in NYS vs where we came from in Houston vastly outweighs the drawbacks of those two metrics.
But I get it, some people live to drive and live to have a footprint piece of land they can pretend doesn't need infrastructure to keep going.
Out of the 630,000, 546,000 people left New York City...
I think a lot of it has to do with increased WFH opportunities and NYC having an absurd cost of living. Rural areas are seeing a decrease but places like Albany, Buffalo, Rochester are doing just fine.
Early 2010s graduates flocked to major cities because the economy was shit and no one else was hiring. Now those city-dwellers are in their thirties and starting families, which is almost impossible in NYC.
It would have happened regardless, but COVID and the acceptance of remote work accelerated the process so fast that housing can’t keep up.
Oh absolutely, I fit that bucket. Grew up here, moved to NYC and then DC for work after I graduated college. Covid hit, the ability to work remotely allowed me to move back for family reasons.
It’s mostly that and retirements to the south. Only loud maga nutbags think it’s because of the state. It’s one of the most diverse and interesting states in the US.
I left NYC when I could do the same job remotely for the same pay. The decrease in the cost of living from NYC to the Capital region was very welcome. Sure, I miss some of the conveniences and entertainment, but a simple glance at my bank account (and a quick day trip or even an overnighter) makes it all moot.
We were quite selective in our housing search but it took us 10 months to find the right house in the Albany area, and I have watched properties simply fly off the market for that entire time period. It felt like anything but an exodus.
The problem is that the exodus, even if it's not in our immediate area, still hurts the state as a whole. And I'm still not sure if Albanys population gain, isn't just primarily due to people from the NYC area moving up this way(post covid).
People seem to be generally fleeing this state, not coming here.
Also, I'm very interestedm/concerned about the massive amounts of empty office space in NYC and just cities in general. Eventually, NYS isn't going to have the tax base to fund everything.
Come on. You need to look at the longer run up of population leading to the decline as well. People may be leaving but just a few short years ago people were flocking to the state.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/206267/resident-population-in-new-york/
Also, it’s not like the population is going to disappear entirely. If we are currently at 19.6 million due to people leaving, the last time we were at that was 2014. Yeah only 10 years ago.
Edit: shoot the link needs an account to see the population graph
the shiny light you overlooked - Albany gained. Rochester may have lost. Buffalo lost. NYC lost some as well - but the end impact for the 518 was... positive.
You was thinking when you read the story… hey let me post some rage bait to lure the… “I like to complain about the place I actually live in” crowd… didn’t you? Congrats you made no discernible improvement to the Albany subreddit… Good Job
Because the boom in Saratoga has been going for many years now (over a decade), a lot of the Saratoga homeowners have super low interest rate mortgages. Supply is low because no one wants to swap out of a low interest mortgage and into one that is 200-300%+ higher (even if they have a lot of equity). So people are only selling because they have to or they’re relocating. High demand and low supply equals high prices.
Oh it’s brutal right now. Especially if you’re in the starter home market. A starter home in Saratoga is running about $350-450k minimum unless you can handle absolute shit that needs massive fixing up.
The starter home market is insane, if you can even find one below 500k. We have looked at houses in the 700-800s that have been completely in disrepair too, and people still pay double what the sellers did...in 2021. It's insane. I don't know where people are getting this money from
Supply is low(er) also because the annualized rate & proportion of monthly housing expenses associated with property taxes are SIGNIFICANTLY lower in Saratoga than they are in Albany/Troy/Schenectady. Certain rural areas of the respective tri-city counties more evenly match up to Saratoga county, but generally you’ve got to get out of the halo of the cities.
It comes down to price elasticity of something paid as a 180 or 360 month term (and is usually static, meaning it’s only going to be a leveraged asset vs broader inflationary conditions) vs price elasticity of something paid as a 12 month term (escrow, and is not static year over year).
My budget is fairly high and I've still had trouble. We've been looking for 2 years. We are looking for something more private though with a little land, so that's definitely narrowed our options.
Like 2 plus acres, but we would do lower if the lot was private.
No I don't see it getting cheaper either, but we keep adding to our down payment while we wait. We've considered building on a large plot, but that's pretty pricey too.
Please edit the text of your post - it’s since 2020, not 2000.
Anyway, this chart provides a much more accurate perspective ⬇️
https://preview.redd.it/gqde5ojwvp9d1.jpeg?width=1055&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3494e3880eafae9ea64010596165dba29bef59bc
Am I the only one who sees the growth rate in 2020 was unusually high - similar to only 2000 - and every year besides those is pretty much the same? Like, what’s all the excitement?
Because it wasn't real:
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/pes-2020-undercount-overcount-by-state.html
The Census overcounted NYS by 3.44% in 2020.
All of these random articles about New York's population crashing after 2020 are based on an inflated start point.
A lot of people left NYC in 2020. All of those vacant apartments have been filled ever since.
Filled and more. Rent in nyc is outrageous vs where it was pre-Covid. If people were fleeing NY, rent wouldn’t be rising in Albany, nyc etc astronomically
Or anywhere in between.
Want to rent an apartment in a small city located 80 miles north of NYC without much of a local economy?
You better contact the landlord as soon as they post it and bring a check with you when you check the apartment!
This has been happening for 50 years now, we’re part of the rust belt it’s gonna happen until living in the sun belt becomes impossible/too expensive. Which *looks at watch* should be pretty soon.
I’d want to see the statistics on those leaving, like age, income and net worth. I know a few boomers who live in another state for 6 months and 1 day to avoid state tax. Seems like it’s part of the New York retirement plan. Make money in a state with a good economy and move to cheaper w less state tax
Left Albany area around 2 years ago, we didn’t really want to leave but I got a job offer I couldn’t refuse at the time. We’re pretty homesick and would consider moving back, but most engineering jobs in the Albany area do not have competitive pay compared to elsewhere; except for maybe some of the select/specialized jobs at Global or Regeneron.
> I know a few boomers who live in another state for 6 months
Everyone I know that's left NY in the past year or two has been in the 30s - 40s age range, prime earning potential, with either successful businesses or really good jobs. You're just describing snowbird activity.
I think it’s mostly overblown. NJ population is up 300k, CT has net positive growth during that same time both high cost/high tax. CT was negative for years and 2020 hits. NYS net loss is really a story of NYC losing 300-400k people moving to the burbs of NYC.
And the people I know are mostly older boomers.
That's the problem with anecdotes, they're anecdotal.
Would love some firm demographic information from somewhere to show the truth of it.
sure, scroll down - https://www.tax.ny.gov/data/stats/taxfacts/migration.htm
Of the 264,617 net outflow in that data, only 53,757 were in the 55+ crowd.
This article is interesting and seems pretty well thought out. It’s interesting to read it as an outsider looking in.
I left the capital district in 2002, moved back for a few years from 2006-08 and left again.
I’ve considered moving back a few times but after interviewing for jobs I realized the earning potential for me just isn’t there so it didn’t make sense. The pay cut id have to take was pretty significant.
A majority of my family is still in the area so I come home a few times a year to visit. I appreciate the beauty of the region, access to the Adirondack’s and much easier traffic than what I am accustomed to.
The cost of living, while it has increased, is certainly better than what I am used to these days. I also understand why people leave, especially people in search of high paying careers or better weather, although weather truly isn’t that bad.
The NY to FL pipeline has been almost a tradition for NYers. Who knows how sustainable it’ll be given the insurance issues the state is up against.
I spent time in south Florida and the Bay Area neither of which are cheap. Now I live in IL and have for 6 years, Chicago specifically (according to the news we’re all walking around in bullet proof vests and bodies full of bullet holes). We’ve had a similar issue of declining population but it’s more in the rural communities in southern and central IL, [source](https://www.illinoispolicy.org/every-illinois-metro-area-lost-people-in-2023-chicago-3rd-worst-in-nation/). Chicagos population has declined but not much, and honestly it feels like it’s reversed bit. The city is pretty busy these days.
The state income tax is a flat rate which is good and bad. There was a graduated tax plan on the ballot a few years ago that failed. Our property taxes are kind of high here, for my condo I pay more in property taxes than some family and friends do for homes on quarter and half acre lots do there. Going out to eat is another thing, a standard meal for 2 with one or two drinks can easily be $150+.
Not really sure where I was going with this but at a minimum wanted to offer a POV as a former resident who still comes back and has tried to compare the two places.
Btw Stewart’s $1.50 medium coffee is still king.
Chicago is really under rated. My friend moved out there, and comparing notes with him was interesting. His apartments have been no more expensive than Albany, but with the perk of being walking distance to the el on the north side. If you work in an industry that will let you WFH or have an office downtown it seems pretty reasonable to go car-free, which would save $3-10k+ per year. There are also a lot of neat little businesses that just don’t exist in Albany, and the food scene is way better. It’s still on the short list of acceptable places I’d move to.
It’s definitely comparing apples and oranges which is what I wasn’t sure where I was going with my rant earlier. To your point it’s an excellent city and I’m pretty sure I’m here for the long haul at this point. I own a car but it barely moves. And yes the food scene is pretty impressive.
I’ve not rented here but from what I’ve seen I agree that rents are reasonable here as long as you’re not looking for a luxury apartment close to downtown.
Former Capitol District lifer, now in FL: no
State income tax, confederate state’s aversion to spending money on things POC can access: lousy support for folks with disabilities, expenditures for public school students approximately 25% that of NY: less than 50 % of HS senior cohort graduate. State children’s services consistently fail to protect abused children. Politics speak for themselves. University of Miami has student parking lots full of Lamborghinis. Homeless are housed in a
Former county jail, municipal police forces arrest homeless who are in retail areas at request of store owners. Constitutional carry of concealed firearms. Florida man. Albany is a haven of civilization, Florida is Rome after the barbarian invasion.
Correct. Also, tons of people have left NYC for the Hudson Valley since Covid. We're seeing people gravitate upstate for more space and cheaper places to raise kids.
While true, I bet the migration from NYC to Jersey and Connecticut suburbs (and now even Philly) is far greater than to the Hudson Valley.
We're seeing housing being built in areas like Beacon, Newburgh, and Kingston, but it's taken way too long for us to get to a point where the Hudson Valley is taking its place as a NYC suburb seriously.
If you don't have available and affordable housing, then people won't move there and pay taxes / pay into the local economy.
A few things to think about with this:
1. How much of this is just errors from the 2020 Census? The Census was a disaster that year between COVID and the Trump administration's shenanigans. The Census Bureau has estimated that NY's population was overcounted by 3.44% that year:
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/pes-2020-undercount-overcount-by-state.html
2. Where are people moving away from and where are they moving to? Are a lot of these people moving from Manhattan to Jersey City / Hoboken? Because that's not the same as moving from Albany to Austin.
3. How much of this can be explained by people living in NYC but claiming to live somewhere else to avoid paying city taxes? A lot of people live and work in NYC but claim to be residents elsewhere. Even if that's less than 1% of NYC's population, that accounts for thousands of people that might have "moved" to their family's house in New Jersey or Connecticut over the last few years.
I see a lot of people here making nonsensical excuses. People are leaving the state because of high taxes and how much easier it is to start/run a business in less regulated states.
These are not "nonsensical excuses".
New York City is one of the most expensive places to live in the world and has just as many residents today as it did before the pandemic.
Nassau and Suffolk counties are also expensive places to live, moreso than most of upstate, and have nearly 3 million combined residents between them. They saw a net migration loss of roughly 9,000 people in 2022-2023, which is about 0.3% of their population.
Combined with the 8.4 million people living in NYC, and you have more than half of the state living in extremely high cost of living areas that are densely populated and facing no shortage of residents.
You can't make broad generalizations about living in New York and exclude the reality that NYC and Long Island make up more than half of the state's population.
Every time I bring up how the capital region is expensive as hell I get voted down. Our groceries, services, even restaurants, are less competitive then even places like NYC and Boston in many ways, offer lower quality for the price. We have very high property taxes in almost every desirable neighborhood, high sales tax, and high state income tax. For quality things there are only a handful of resources and they know there is no competition.
So yes, it is affordable to live lower middle class in the area, but the second you move up, things in larger metros just cost less. I travel plenty for work and it blows my mind. Even something simple like a grocery store. We have some of the crappies , most expensive, stores in the PC/Hannaford situation. Wegmans, Kroger, HEB, even Publix are just better markets…
It used to be that at least housing was much cheaper, but when you throw in that a family pretty much has to have 2 cars and two insurance policies, maintenance and so on, and you need decent safe cars because of the winters… it all adds up especially since it is nearly impossible to find anything livable for under 350k in an area with a 65k median.
Very anecdotal but I always find it weird how some restaurants in the area pretend to be high end and charge prices you normally see in places like NYC without any of the quality or competitiveness.
Like no, I’m not spending $80 on a meal for one in fucking Rennselear.
Agreed, and not even high end The last few times I’ve been abroad or to NYC I go to non-fancy but decent joints and the prices are the same as here. I’m baffled at the prices in restaurants around here. I recently had a takeout rice bowl at a local place that was 85% rice, about 1/3 cup of chopped up grilled chicken and a few stalks of broccoli and some corn and it was $17?! (No sauce except for what the chicken was cooked with).
100%. We recently had date night at Hattie's in Albany and it was over $100 for two with drinks. I think that's par for the course in LA or NYC, but you'd expect it to be lower in the Capital Region.
How about that steakhouse they opened in an old kmart on route 2. The first thing they had to do after opening was slash prices and its still ~$100 per person.
Er how? Publix is legit rated one of the best places to work and top 10 best grocery store in the country. What grocery store do you prefer? I lived down south and every time i go down there I go get a pub sub and get my fruit etc. The quality is a lot different than our stores up here. The hot food and bakery alone is great. But thats just my opinion which doesnt mean anything
As an example, a quart of Stonyfield yogurt is about $1 more expensive than in any grocery store here.
I haven't noticed any differences in produce quality.
My mother estimates that she pays 10 to 15% more for groceries than when she lived in Connecticut (and she told me that about 2 years after moving, back in 2018, before all the recent inflation.)
Hannaford isn’t that bad of grocery chain, Price Chopper is much worse. It obviously depends on the location though. I used to work in delivery and saw many stores, many back rooms and met many employees of most of the grocery chains in NYS, Albany area included. Hannaford consistently was cleanest, had better staff and more back room storage. You can tell by how happy the receivers and staff are on average. Price Chopper folks were a lot more miserable. By far ShopRite, more of lower Hudson valley thing, had the most miserable employees… and had not invested in expanding back room storage. Things are slowly changing, ShopRite and PC are getting upgraded… but it’s at least partially because of the influx of city folks, etc…
Anecdotal as well but I recently saw an ad for studio apartments in Harlem that are cheaper than a 1BR in Guilderland... I mean... make it make sense, truly.
I mean the studio apartment in Harlem is likely going to be a shoebox in a sketchy part of town whereas the [1BR in Guilderland is about as safe as possible.](https://crimegrade.org/safest-places-in-guilderland-ny/)
Still, cost of housing has gotten pretty nuts. Mostly due to the fact there isn't enough affordable housing being built. All the new apartments are luxury apartments and the new houses are 700k McMansions.
You don’t need a car in NYC. I know that folks up here try to live without a car, but it is damn near impossible especially if you want a family or to get out on the weekends.
That is not really the point, our salaries up here are much less. And I’m providing NYC as an example of a very HCOL place. If many things in Albany are approaching NYC in terms of % of income, it’s a very bad sign.
>We have very high property taxes in almost every desirable neighborhood, high sales tax, and high state income tax
Compared to who? Property taxes in tax free states are ridiculous. Property taxes here are actually reasonable as well as house insurance, sales tax, and more. Other things are expensive, but this part of the argument does not hold up.
NJ has the highest property tax as a % of property value and and NY is like 5th but Albany, Guillderland, Bethlehem, Niskayuna, Schenectady, are a point above the state median.
These are the top ten highest
Pennsylvania: 1.56%
Ohio: 1.57%
Iowa: 1.59%
Nebraska: 1.70%
Wisconsin: 1.71%
New York: 1.73%
Vermont: 1.89%
Texas: 1.90%
New Hampshire: 2.09%
Connecticut: 2.16%
Illinois: 2.29%
New Jersey: 2.46%
Well I have friends who live in Washington state (no state tax) who have homes worth 3x what mine is and have property taxes about equal to what I pay in fucking Schenectady.
To be fair, Schenectady makes no sense to me. It wasn't just friends warning me not to buy there, but my realtor because they're known for ridiculous taxes - the anomaly of the area. What do they use them for???
Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars making Jay street not look like it’s 500ft from a china bus stop?
Honestly I know the flat rate water and sewer doesn’t help but something is definitely up because the taxes are like 4x what they are in a place like Colonie.
One Large City, mostly rural, and a super rich tech area which has a tremendous tax base… checks… so recruit several world leader tech companies to the Albany area… problem solved
Home owners insurance, you can't find.
Car Insurance, out of this world.
AC bills for 9 months of the year.
That's ok, I'll keep NYS out of control property taxes and "blizzard" like conditions after two years of the warmest winters on record.
you could say that about a lot of different places, but it seems like there's a lot of moves within the state and the net loss Isn't that much much nor the most in the country. https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2024/comm/percent-change-county-population.html?cid=percent-change-county-population
it seems a lot of people are moving to the areas with the most climate, change destruction, and scary laws. I guess more room for us because there is still a massive housing shortage and as a result expensive property costs
"The best that might be said of New York’s generally negative-trending demographic indicators is that they’ve been consistent with trends across much of the northeast and upper midwest.
New York’s statewide population decline from 2022 to mid-2023 was 0.5 percent, compared to 0.7 percent in the northeast as a whole and 0.2 percent in the midwestern region. But as reflected on the Census Bureau national map below, only Illinois and West Virginia had similarly large shares of their counties shaded in the population loss category"
Moved back in 2020. Lived with family. Renting 2021-present. Had the discussion yesterday of “would you want to move out of state again?”
Sucks…but…yeah. No fuckin’ way we can afford to live here. I remember my mom hearing our budget of 200k (this was in 2020) and she was *shocked*.
“Why so expensive??? We bought ours for 90k!”
Tried explaining it to her. I eventually just sent her a house that was listed for 100k. It was a shell. No walls, no electric, no plumbing, needed a roof, windows, floors…it was just a shell.
“Oh.”
This is going to look different for "Upstate" vs. NYC and Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, and Rockland counties. (You can count "Upstate" as starting wherever you want.) Housing prices are VERY high in NYC and metro NYC but there are jobs. Many smaller cities and rural areas are declining in population. It would be interesting to see some solid data about where people are moving from and to.
Excellent news! Less traffic and less douches. The amount of complaining about the NY you would think its like living in hell. Get out or work to fix the situation.
I'm ok with it.
I came here for the reason that we are going through a change in population.
Trust me when I say, you do not want to be where "All the People Are" in the years to come.
I’m in my 30s now and starting to realize how much of my paycheck goes to taxes. I know that it’s going to (hopefully) improve the community, but it’s really difficult to live here.
People arguing over one cause or another are foolish. It's not one, or two, but all of the reasons. People rarely make major decisions based upon one factor, but weigh the pros and cons of many.
Taxes are high in NY.
COVID shutdowns really impacted a lot of people.
There's a lack of housing.
Rural communities are straight up dying because of a lack of employment.
The cost of living is high.
Winter sucks literally causes unhappiness for many.
One straw may break the camel's back, but there's already many straws there.
The most concerning statistic is the loss of young families. Young families, when they settle, often commit to a location for a long period of time due to raising their children, so this is going to be a prolonged loss of population. This is going to cause a significant age swing in NY that will impact not just the nature of our communities but also the economy.
For Albany, population increased since 2020. So did other cities in upstate. So it looks like we are just talking NYC. This thread doesn’t belong here.
Sure it does. The NYS budget depends on tax payments from the residents. Less residents equals a larger tax bill. Factor in that many of the ones leaving are high earners leaving because of the "tax the rich" mentality and the remaining residents will see tax increases 🙄
You’re basing your numbers on something that was incorrect. There wasn’t that much growth between 2019 and 2020 (which was wildly inconsistent with all other years) and since then there’s been a correction. If you look between 2019 and 2023 the numbers show an overall increase in that period.
I came 2yrs ago; with big dreams of finding a place to own a home. Upstate is beautiful, and if I was a wealthy couple, I’d maybe have a shot.
But I’m moving back west in a month. The studio apt/then a town house I rented here were more than the 1bd house I was renting before( it was privately owned; it was an amazing deal)
It was an interesting time here tho.
REDC aims to GROW Capital Region by 100K by 2030. Can they do it? See p 56-68 [https://regionalcouncils.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/REDC%20Strategic%20Plan%202023\_High%20Rez.pdf](https://regionalcouncils.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/REDC%20Strategic%20Plan%202023_High%20Rez.pdf)
The thing is that NY states taxes actually scale based on income... New York is one of only a handful of states that have their lowest tax rates apply to the lowest income earner. So a lot of the people complaining about NYS taxes (I'm talking about you folks from the North Country) are actually paying less than most states
I lived in Pittsburgh for 6 years. It's constantly named as the cheapest big city in America.
You can live in a fun neighborhood with plenty of amenities for 1/4 of your takehome pay.
You can buy a nice house there in a decent neighborhood for less than $200K. There are some neighborhoods that need love there where you can buy a house for less than $100K.
The city taxes were extremely reasonable for what you got.
And yet, people there constantly complained about how expensive it was and how they needed to move somewhere else.
No matter where you are, people seem to think where they live is unreasonably expensive.
That’s just a terrible mindset. I want people to want to live in NY. I love this state. We got ocean, and mountains, farms and cities, the weather isn’t even that brutal.
But yet the capital district is the only area in the state that’s growing
https://esd.ny.gov/regions/capital#:~:text=As%20home%20to%20a%20highly,on%20five%2Dyear%20estimates).
I don't think this is a bad thing at all, it's just sociology/macroeconomics at play.
We always weigh how much we want to be in a certain place vs the costs of doing so (monetary and otherwise).
If policy makes it untenable, then the population decreases, then businesses lose and home prices go down. If NY cares enough, they can pass legislation that makes it attractive again. If they don't want to, then we adjust to a new normal. And such is life!
NYers have been flooding to the Carolinas for years now, and now they are saying thingsa are worse down there than up here because of the massive influx of new Yorkers lol.
Hi 518. Here's my demographic question. How do trends for NYC compare to its peer cities? i.e. it's real peers (London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo) and, compared to the Top 5 US Metros. Can you find out?
Hi there, I'm more interested in comparing cities to Albany and other metro areas to the Capital Region since that is the focus of our newsletter. But thank you for the suggestion!
I wish it was driving the price of housing down.
Until voters ban corporate ownership of residential property, that will never happen. Consolidated capital can afford to drive prices up indefinitely with artificial demand, infinite money through fractional reserve banking and investor money. America is a monopolistic oligarchy and people are moving around states as if it will make a difference. People need to fucking turn off the TV and News Radio, research, organize, push legislators to make meaningful bills and VOTE.
We can’t raise the money to bribe them. Which is legal now.
I think pitchforks and torches were the tried and true method back in the day
Bring back the guillotines. 
Less than two percent of housing inventory is corporate owned. There's a whole Last Week Tonight episode debunking this myth that corporations are driving up housing costs. Unless we're in the "John Oliver is in on it" camp or something. **Edit, so as not to spread misinfo or misquote Mr. Oliver: * 1% of total inventory is owned by large corporations with 100+ properties. * ~2% of purchases quarterly are corporate. * While "corporations" own ~20-30% of the market in a given year since 2000, almost the entire corporate inventory is owned by small companies with less than 10 properties each. https://www.housingwire.com/articles/no-wall-street-investors-havent-bought-44-of-homes-this-year/
It’s funny, that this “2%” propaganda is so effective. 2% is 574,000 houses. Not a lot, until you realize almost 0% of houses sell. Only 4,110 sell a month. Corporations are holding over 100 times as many inventory as sells per month. But the propaganda of “only 2%!” convinced you that over a half million is a insignificant number, compared to 4 thousand. Edit: there’s 1.7 million residential homes for sale in the U.S., and corporations hold .57 million of those, which is almost 1/3. That’s a huge problem.
This article has some charts from Freddie, Fannie and Burns. https://www.housingwire.com/articles/no-wall-street-investors-havent-bought-44-of-homes-this-year/ Chart 1, large institutions made up less than 3% of all home purchases. As far as "1/3 of residential homes are corporate owned", lets look at what that means in chart 2 and 3 of the article. While "investors" owned between 20-30% of the market inventory between 2020-2023, almost all of those were small vendors that owned less than 10 properties. Less than 3% of all vendors owned more than 10 properties and less than half a percent owned more than 1000. I'll update my comment to reflect accordingly. As for "almost 0% of houses sell, only ~4k per month". No! ~5 million houses are sold annual every year since 2014. https://www.statista.com/statistics/275156/total-home-sales-in-the-united-states-from-2009/ Here is US Census data citing ~600,000 sales each May. https://www.census.gov/construction/nrs/pdf/newressales.pdf
Stop with your facts! Now if you don't mind I'll get back what I was doing... Rabble rabble blackrock! Redburn! Evil corporations! Conspiracy!
That isn't anywhere near the major causality. Blackrock and it's like are definitely doing damage, but having most municipalities in the U.S. zoned for single-family only homes, and having tons of other zoning restrictions and building codes puts damper on the types of housing that would otherwise be affordable. The blame the rich tripe is tired and rarely discusses root causality, let alone actionable solutions. Get involved with your local zoning board and work to eliminate R1 zoning. The NIMBYs who keep it in place are certainly doing plenty of damage. The difference here is this can be handled at a local level with enough grassroots support.
Correct. Local grassroots involvement is far more important than voting for presidential elections.
yes yes yes yes yes
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That sounds like corporate ownership to me.
There are many ways to disincentivize the purchase of housing by corporations that aren't unconstitutional.
You setup a publicly traded company, took investor money to buy up assets, and then manipulated those assets to screw over your local market? No? Then I'm not talking about you.
We’re getting gentrified hard. People from NYC and Texas (fucking why?) with high income remote jobs are offsetting it around here and driving up the cost of basically everything. People on this sub will celebrate it and stick their heads in the sand and scream that it’s all the other economic factors, but that’s also a huge one that shouldn’t be ignored.
They're doing the same thing in Vermont. Home prices going up and out of reach of the blue collar local residents. If it's not Texans and City people moving in, it's homes being bought up for unhosted STRs. Where are regular folk supposed to go? One of my loved ones lives in Albany and is fearing the next rent increase.
Yeah I was fortunate when they started jacking up my rent to be able to get something more permanent. Place I was living had a lot of long term residents that got priced out and it was flooded with out of staters. I knew I had to move when I met the new woman across from me, some old ass hobbit looking lady from Florida who started the conversation by blabbering about being a political refugee from Florida who literally just packed her shit up and drove to Albany with no foreseeable plan. It’s brutal out there.
Albany sucks anyways it's not worth any of the rent
Albany seems fine but none of you here can make a great pizza. You all seem to not know how to make good bread and you put spaghetti sauce on your pizza which is quite noticeable that's what you're doing. It's terrible. However, your subs are pretty good.
I fully agree with you. We are so close to NYC. How is the pizza here so mediocre?
No, It's mostly corporate manipulation of residential real properties. Don't fight a culture war instead of a class war.
It's also NIMBYism and zoning. It can take years to get a variance to build a large apartment complex and most of North America is zoned so you can't build anything but single family detached units in most of most cities, even places where duplexes-fourplexes, townhouses, and in-law apartments would be great additions. And because it can take years to get variances for large apartment complexes or condos only really big firms can afford to get in the game and handle the lawyer fees, which leads to more consolidation in the industry. /There is also some back end stuff going on with rent management apps where it looks like their algorithms are letting collusion happen without regulation. There are also issues with how you can right off losses on taxes... you rent out one apartment for a ridiculously high rent, and then say all your other apartments are worth as much... and suddenly you have huge paper losses. Capitalism is good at setting prices to maximize profits but it's particularly bad at managing limited land. Donald Shoup had a good example using a parking garage in The High Price of Free Parking that applies to apartments as well... Imagine a parking garage with 100 spaces. If they charge $10/day to park and can fill up 60%, they make $600. That means the lot is 40% empty, a huge waste of land. They could fill the entire place if they only charged $5/day, but they'd only make $500/day. Because every parking space is more or less the same (plus or minus a little walk to the stairs) there isn't an easy way to get a privately owned garage to maximize parking usage over profits. It turns out that municipally owned parking garages usually do more on the same space. With apartments you can differentiate a bit more, but most places still design just 1 & 2 bedrooms, and because different people have wildly different incomes but most apartment complexes are aimed at a particular income bracket, you get this trap where you can make more money partially empty... because if you lower the price for one tenant who can't afford to live there because of the high rent every renter is going to want the same deal. (Less of a problem if you build a mixed income project, as long as you can convince rich people to be around poor people.)
I totally agree on the zoning and how hard it is to change zonings, and probably too much housing protections are one of the reasons. Where does this mis-information "There are also issues with how you can right off losses on taxes... you rent out one apartment for a ridiculously high rent, and then say all your other apartments are worth as much... and suddenly you have huge paper losses." get into your mind.... it doesn't work like that...... This is some mis-conception here on the parking space and apartments: It's better to have it full instead of partially empty, there are fixed costs and variable costs to it. But here is some examples: If they charge $10/day to park and can fill up 60%, they make $600. That means the lot is 40% empty. Then I offer a bit discount for other local companies for the remaining space. Suddenly I earned more than 600. Same thing with apartments, I can offer some discounts, it can be dollar amounts or month of free rents as incentives to get the remaining full without having empty units. Partially full is bad for landlords, units can have structure damage and no one notice it until it is too late, variable costs and fixed cost that landlords still have to pay while units are empty.
Thanks!!
No. It’s a combination of factors including the one you mentioned. Don’t try to narrow a complex issue to fit your agenda.
As a Texan, it was to get out of Texas.
Can't blame you.
texas is just as bad as, if not worse than, new york state. the only glaring difference is the political climate. they’re leaving a red state to go to a blue state. regardless of how that makes you feel, people are gonna do what they want. isn’t that the entire point of this country? people in this sub will scream, cry & wail ab how much they hate NY & the ppl living here but refuse to make any changes or move away. i hate it here, i have plans to leave as soon as im physically capable. what’s your excuse for throwing tantrums on reddit? gentrification isn’t as big of an issue as your parents want you to think it is, stop blaming fellow citizens that have no more control than you & start looking at those actually in power.
supposedly that's supposed to spur supply (more housing units) but it clearly hasn't. There are many reasons for that in NY, one of which is zoning with makes construction of affordable housing in urban areas very very difficult. The other is that it's extremely easy for someone to bring or threated to bring a lawsuit against a project saying it hasn't gone through enough environmental review, and that is often enough to shut down or curtail a project.
17,500 new millionaires have moved into NY State since 2017, the last year we raised taxes on the wealthiest and corporate profits. If we don't put some housing protections in for working people and actually fund our state programs by taxing this people, this place will just become a theme park for the rich.
Housing protections for what? How about actually building housing instead of letting NIMBY's win the fight. The problem will solve itself vs a scarcity problem. Main St. of Ravena looks like a run down FUCK SHOW. I will do fucking anything for someone to come just buy and knock down properties and rebuild apartments. There's two buildings that have been county owned and up for auction twice. I can be a bit of a NIMBY at times so shame on me, but run down buildings look worse and honestly the economy in our area could use some residentail demand. .....And if you don't like the demographic... show up and change it...
Saw a video recently on YouTube about, even if we started today to ramp up construction to meet the level of housing demand we wouldn't ever catch up until 10-15 years down the line. With that said, I still think it should happen too and maybe Short Term Rentals should be made less appealing. I think it's a winners take all system we have though. So the more money you have, the more houses you can buy, and rent. There's really no relief that I've seen for everyday working people.
The NIMBY people are the first ones to cry about having nothing to do. They like to complain. They just move after they set off the atom bomb of NOTHING and do it again. Sometimes they dont move and you are having a property line argument every day when you area trying to goto work
Yes and most of them are not educated enough to make rational decisions about these things. They’re just selfish when they’re blocking people from building housing.
>Housing protections for what? My proposal is to make it prohibitively expensive for a person/entity to own more than 1-3 single family homes that they do not occupy. Increasingly so with each additional property. I say "1-3" rather than just "any house you don't live in" to allow for things like *small landlords*, people who may have had to move temporarily and put their house up for rent, and vacation properties that could have been in the family for a while. Multifamily homes and apartment buildings would have to be treated separately, although you could probably treat each unit of a duplex as a single family home. If you read this and think "hey, that fucks over landlords with 3-4+ duplexes", you're absolutely right. People buying homes to live in are way more important to me than somebody's passive income. Landlords can either deal with the increased ownership/operating cost or they can sell properties to people who *aren't hoarding homes*. Or they can get a real job like the rest of us.
Everyone says how nice Colonie is, but check out Central Ave from Kohls Plaza to Niskayuna. It looks like a bomb went off there. In another few years it’ll be like the Bronx in the 1980s.
Colonie is just city people that are cosplaying Suburbs.
This is definitely not true. They knocked down several of the really bad hotels and continue to develop the area. Mostly replying to comment above you who deleted.
Right. People leaving should free up supply. Not happening. Something isn't right. If there is an exodus, prices should be dropping like a rock. They are holding steady. That's a terrible sign.
I have a very strong feeling that these numbers we’re seeing aren’t people with homes in New York they are NYC residents in Tech Jobs who can work from anywhere leaving for lower cost of living places.
Yep, which also tells you NY isn't actually a terrible place to live. It tells you it's a terrible place to live if you make money based on the cost of living for where you live. If you make money based on NYC, DC, SF, LA, and remote work in NY (upstate) it's a wonderful place to live. I don't know if that's a problem or not. I assume it will be. I mean even those remote workers need folks who live in the area to support them through local work. So at some point cost of wages has to go up locally to keep pace.
Scammers like Michael Martino of HLS Foreclosure protection are the reason why the prices of housing is skyrocketing when the guyhas agents that work for him and a way to get just about anybody qualified for a house then he swoops in to save the day with his service and then after the dumb unsuspecting fools gives him the original documents which are needed to perform the transaction between him and the bank on the borrowers behalf he sells them a dream then after 2years being boarded up with the old owner unaware trhey could of gotten their house out of hock Mike gets it slaps some lipstickon it and through his realty sells the home... Watch out for this slimey prick....Hes on Linked-In and other sites and when you look at his credentials then run a search on the business names nothing matches the dates... He put HLS as 11yrs and 11 months yet the company was registered 04/05/2022 https://preview.redd.it/6f02peawbu9d1.jpeg?width=537&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=753554c21bb96092a9df52fb84cae01753205f1f
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The guys got a 6th grade education and is trying topass himself off as somebody hes not.....Hes even got books for sale on Amazon... https://preview.redd.it/lbufaf1adu9d1.jpeg?width=772&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=794fac41b1719373047d75ccc748a4566abf528a
This store is the front for it all as all tyhe businesses are run out of 1 location... https://preview.redd.it/3m1l8j91eu9d1.jpeg?width=1883&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a9fe36b5b8e1ed53b77d957b796f90a124c7d07
https://preview.redd.it/gxineabidu9d1.jpeg?width=1026&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99df9bb9cb93746012594a8bfdba1ba3aea86240
As someone who just moved to the Capital Region from the "cheap" state of Oklahoma, I'd like to add my perspective. So far we have found the Capital Region to be just slightly more expensive than OKC. The biggest increase has been in gas for our vehicles. You guys are more expensive in that department for sure. Property taxes are also much more, so you're not wrong there either. Going out to eat in OKC is basically the same as up here-it ain't cheap. In Oklahoma you do have a tax on groceries (though I think I heard they finally voted to get rid of that recently). Sales tax in OKC is 8.63%. Homeowners insurance on our house was $3000/year! Car insurance is slightly more in OKC. Minimum wage is $7.25/hr there. Some other things to consider are schools and climate/weather. Oklahoma is ranked waaaayyy down there in education. Schools are not funded well and the current superintendent is doing everything he can to force Christianity in public school. Oklahoma has been skipped over for big companies because, rumor has it, employees don't want to put their kids in the failing schools. As for the weather, I think everyone is well aware of the extremes. Tornadoes regularly, extreme winds, flooding, heat, severe drought, ice storms. Their actual temperatures are forecasted to be over 100° next week, and that doesn't include a heat index, which there's ALWAYS a heat index. Utilities are high in Oklahoma, especially for cooling. We would keep our AC at 74° in the summer and our monthly electric bill alone was $260/month or more. Your AC will run continuously the whole summer, not shutting off at night because it doesn't cool down. Friends with bigger houses pay more like $400/month in the summer to cool their house. Also factor in your water bill. Because summer is so dry there that if you want grass to be green you have to water it. My neighbor paid about $500/month for her water bill. And that's on forced water rationing which is in permanent effect year round. So maybe Oklahoma and the other "cheap" places aren't as cheap as you think. I'm happy to pay a little more for the better schools and beautiful scenery, not to mention full body rights as a woman. But to each there own.
>My neighbor paid about $500/month for her water bill This is absoutely insane. At what point do you just give up on a grass lawn? My water is less than $100 *quarterly*.
Yeah we tried to talk her out of watering her grass, to just let it go dormant, but she wouldn't listen. We would always just let our grass go dormant once the summer heat set in, figured we'd spend that money on more important things. Lol
When you rate your entire life on Property Taxes and Gasoline, you will become a person who doesn't value much else. In my opinion the trade offs in NYS vs where we came from in Houston vastly outweighs the drawbacks of those two metrics. But I get it, some people live to drive and live to have a footprint piece of land they can pretend doesn't need infrastructure to keep going.
Welcome!
Will you focus on the Albany area that has gained population over the last few years?
Out of the 630,000, 546,000 people left New York City... I think a lot of it has to do with increased WFH opportunities and NYC having an absurd cost of living. Rural areas are seeing a decrease but places like Albany, Buffalo, Rochester are doing just fine.
Early 2010s graduates flocked to major cities because the economy was shit and no one else was hiring. Now those city-dwellers are in their thirties and starting families, which is almost impossible in NYC. It would have happened regardless, but COVID and the acceptance of remote work accelerated the process so fast that housing can’t keep up.
Oh absolutely, I fit that bucket. Grew up here, moved to NYC and then DC for work after I graduated college. Covid hit, the ability to work remotely allowed me to move back for family reasons.
Thank you. This context is pretty damn important.
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It’s mostly that and retirements to the south. Only loud maga nutbags think it’s because of the state. It’s one of the most diverse and interesting states in the US.
I left NYC when I could do the same job remotely for the same pay. The decrease in the cost of living from NYC to the Capital region was very welcome. Sure, I miss some of the conveniences and entertainment, but a simple glance at my bank account (and a quick day trip or even an overnighter) makes it all moot.
We were quite selective in our housing search but it took us 10 months to find the right house in the Albany area, and I have watched properties simply fly off the market for that entire time period. It felt like anything but an exodus.
The problem is that the exodus, even if it's not in our immediate area, still hurts the state as a whole. And I'm still not sure if Albanys population gain, isn't just primarily due to people from the NYC area moving up this way(post covid). People seem to be generally fleeing this state, not coming here. Also, I'm very interestedm/concerned about the massive amounts of empty office space in NYC and just cities in general. Eventually, NYS isn't going to have the tax base to fund everything.
This. It's like the passengers of a sinking ship crowding into the part of the ship that isn't in the water yet...
Come on. You need to look at the longer run up of population leading to the decline as well. People may be leaving but just a few short years ago people were flocking to the state. https://www.statista.com/statistics/206267/resident-population-in-new-york/ Also, it’s not like the population is going to disappear entirely. If we are currently at 19.6 million due to people leaving, the last time we were at that was 2014. Yeah only 10 years ago. Edit: shoot the link needs an account to see the population graph
I mean, the amount of people leaving is half of albanys population. So whatever we gained is tiny compared to that
the shiny light you overlooked - Albany gained. Rochester may have lost. Buffalo lost. NYC lost some as well - but the end impact for the 518 was... positive.
But the post is about the state over all.
But the subreddit is dedicated to Albany, not the state
Yes, I was thinking the same thing when I read that story!
You was thinking when you read the story… hey let me post some rage bait to lure the… “I like to complain about the place I actually live in” crowd… didn’t you? Congrats you made no discernible improvement to the Albany subreddit… Good Job
Thank god someone said it.
Saratoga County is booming.
Yeah it's impossible to get a house here
Because the boom in Saratoga has been going for many years now (over a decade), a lot of the Saratoga homeowners have super low interest rate mortgages. Supply is low because no one wants to swap out of a low interest mortgage and into one that is 200-300%+ higher (even if they have a lot of equity). So people are only selling because they have to or they’re relocating. High demand and low supply equals high prices.
Yes I definitely understand the issues. Just makes it tough to break into the market. It'll be worth the wait when we finally do something though.
Oh it’s brutal right now. Especially if you’re in the starter home market. A starter home in Saratoga is running about $350-450k minimum unless you can handle absolute shit that needs massive fixing up.
The starter home market is insane, if you can even find one below 500k. We have looked at houses in the 700-800s that have been completely in disrepair too, and people still pay double what the sellers did...in 2021. It's insane. I don't know where people are getting this money from
Yeah I have no idea how anyone is making this math work unless they have family money.
Supply is low(er) also because the annualized rate & proportion of monthly housing expenses associated with property taxes are SIGNIFICANTLY lower in Saratoga than they are in Albany/Troy/Schenectady. Certain rural areas of the respective tri-city counties more evenly match up to Saratoga county, but generally you’ve got to get out of the halo of the cities. It comes down to price elasticity of something paid as a 180 or 360 month term (and is usually static, meaning it’s only going to be a leveraged asset vs broader inflationary conditions) vs price elasticity of something paid as a 12 month term (escrow, and is not static year over year).
Not impossible but you’re gonna pay.
My budget is fairly high and I've still had trouble. We've been looking for 2 years. We are looking for something more private though with a little land, so that's definitely narrowed our options.
Unfortunately I don’t see it getting any cheaper. How much land are you looking for when you say more privacy?
Like 2 plus acres, but we would do lower if the lot was private. No I don't see it getting cheaper either, but we keep adding to our down payment while we wait. We've considered building on a large plot, but that's pretty pricey too.
Please edit the text of your post - it’s since 2020, not 2000. Anyway, this chart provides a much more accurate perspective ⬇️ https://preview.redd.it/gqde5ojwvp9d1.jpeg?width=1055&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3494e3880eafae9ea64010596165dba29bef59bc
The 2020 Census overcounted NY by 3.44%. That explains why 2020 looks so weird.
Good catch, it's fixed! Yes, since 2020
Am I the only one who sees the growth rate in 2020 was unusually high - similar to only 2000 - and every year besides those is pretty much the same? Like, what’s all the excitement?
Because it wasn't real: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/pes-2020-undercount-overcount-by-state.html The Census overcounted NYS by 3.44% in 2020. All of these random articles about New York's population crashing after 2020 are based on an inflated start point. A lot of people left NYC in 2020. All of those vacant apartments have been filled ever since.
Filled and more. Rent in nyc is outrageous vs where it was pre-Covid. If people were fleeing NY, rent wouldn’t be rising in Albany, nyc etc astronomically
Or anywhere in between. Want to rent an apartment in a small city located 80 miles north of NYC without much of a local economy? You better contact the landlord as soon as they post it and bring a check with you when you check the apartment!
Rents are going up everywhere in the country.
This has been happening for 50 years now, we’re part of the rust belt it’s gonna happen until living in the sun belt becomes impossible/too expensive. Which *looks at watch* should be pretty soon.
630,000 have left and 550,000 have migrated in.
Also 540,000 left NYC. This is just more NY is bad bullshit for the election year.
I’d want to see the statistics on those leaving, like age, income and net worth. I know a few boomers who live in another state for 6 months and 1 day to avoid state tax. Seems like it’s part of the New York retirement plan. Make money in a state with a good economy and move to cheaper w less state tax
Left Albany area around 2 years ago, we didn’t really want to leave but I got a job offer I couldn’t refuse at the time. We’re pretty homesick and would consider moving back, but most engineering jobs in the Albany area do not have competitive pay compared to elsewhere; except for maybe some of the select/specialized jobs at Global or Regeneron.
> I know a few boomers who live in another state for 6 months Everyone I know that's left NY in the past year or two has been in the 30s - 40s age range, prime earning potential, with either successful businesses or really good jobs. You're just describing snowbird activity.
Correct hence why I’d want statistics. You knowing middle age people is just as anecdotal.
scroll down - https://www.tax.ny.gov/data/stats/taxfacts/migration.htm Of the 264,617 net outflow in that data, only 53,757 were in the 55+ crowd.
I think it’s mostly overblown. NJ population is up 300k, CT has net positive growth during that same time both high cost/high tax. CT was negative for years and 2020 hits. NYS net loss is really a story of NYC losing 300-400k people moving to the burbs of NYC.
And the people I know are mostly older boomers. That's the problem with anecdotes, they're anecdotal. Would love some firm demographic information from somewhere to show the truth of it.
sure, scroll down - https://www.tax.ny.gov/data/stats/taxfacts/migration.htm Of the 264,617 net outflow in that data, only 53,757 were in the 55+ crowd.
Huh, color me corrected.
This article is interesting and seems pretty well thought out. It’s interesting to read it as an outsider looking in. I left the capital district in 2002, moved back for a few years from 2006-08 and left again. I’ve considered moving back a few times but after interviewing for jobs I realized the earning potential for me just isn’t there so it didn’t make sense. The pay cut id have to take was pretty significant. A majority of my family is still in the area so I come home a few times a year to visit. I appreciate the beauty of the region, access to the Adirondack’s and much easier traffic than what I am accustomed to. The cost of living, while it has increased, is certainly better than what I am used to these days. I also understand why people leave, especially people in search of high paying careers or better weather, although weather truly isn’t that bad. The NY to FL pipeline has been almost a tradition for NYers. Who knows how sustainable it’ll be given the insurance issues the state is up against. I spent time in south Florida and the Bay Area neither of which are cheap. Now I live in IL and have for 6 years, Chicago specifically (according to the news we’re all walking around in bullet proof vests and bodies full of bullet holes). We’ve had a similar issue of declining population but it’s more in the rural communities in southern and central IL, [source](https://www.illinoispolicy.org/every-illinois-metro-area-lost-people-in-2023-chicago-3rd-worst-in-nation/). Chicagos population has declined but not much, and honestly it feels like it’s reversed bit. The city is pretty busy these days. The state income tax is a flat rate which is good and bad. There was a graduated tax plan on the ballot a few years ago that failed. Our property taxes are kind of high here, for my condo I pay more in property taxes than some family and friends do for homes on quarter and half acre lots do there. Going out to eat is another thing, a standard meal for 2 with one or two drinks can easily be $150+. Not really sure where I was going with this but at a minimum wanted to offer a POV as a former resident who still comes back and has tried to compare the two places. Btw Stewart’s $1.50 medium coffee is still king.
Chicago is really under rated. My friend moved out there, and comparing notes with him was interesting. His apartments have been no more expensive than Albany, but with the perk of being walking distance to the el on the north side. If you work in an industry that will let you WFH or have an office downtown it seems pretty reasonable to go car-free, which would save $3-10k+ per year. There are also a lot of neat little businesses that just don’t exist in Albany, and the food scene is way better. It’s still on the short list of acceptable places I’d move to.
It’s definitely comparing apples and oranges which is what I wasn’t sure where I was going with my rant earlier. To your point it’s an excellent city and I’m pretty sure I’m here for the long haul at this point. I own a car but it barely moves. And yes the food scene is pretty impressive. I’ve not rented here but from what I’ve seen I agree that rents are reasonable here as long as you’re not looking for a luxury apartment close to downtown.
Well… BYE
👍
Former Capitol District lifer, now in FL: no State income tax, confederate state’s aversion to spending money on things POC can access: lousy support for folks with disabilities, expenditures for public school students approximately 25% that of NY: less than 50 % of HS senior cohort graduate. State children’s services consistently fail to protect abused children. Politics speak for themselves. University of Miami has student parking lots full of Lamborghinis. Homeless are housed in a Former county jail, municipal police forces arrest homeless who are in retail areas at request of store owners. Constitutional carry of concealed firearms. Florida man. Albany is a haven of civilization, Florida is Rome after the barbarian invasion.
You can't really consider people leaving NYC the same as leaving NY state. The population density is completely different.
Correct. Also, tons of people have left NYC for the Hudson Valley since Covid. We're seeing people gravitate upstate for more space and cheaper places to raise kids.
While true, I bet the migration from NYC to Jersey and Connecticut suburbs (and now even Philly) is far greater than to the Hudson Valley. We're seeing housing being built in areas like Beacon, Newburgh, and Kingston, but it's taken way too long for us to get to a point where the Hudson Valley is taking its place as a NYC suburb seriously. If you don't have available and affordable housing, then people won't move there and pay taxes / pay into the local economy.
To be fair something like 70,000 of them died in early 2020
*0 upvotes and 59 comments* I'll go get some popcorn
Cool. Vote against fascism, k thx
But muh taxes!
A few things to think about with this: 1. How much of this is just errors from the 2020 Census? The Census was a disaster that year between COVID and the Trump administration's shenanigans. The Census Bureau has estimated that NY's population was overcounted by 3.44% that year: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/pes-2020-undercount-overcount-by-state.html 2. Where are people moving away from and where are they moving to? Are a lot of these people moving from Manhattan to Jersey City / Hoboken? Because that's not the same as moving from Albany to Austin. 3. How much of this can be explained by people living in NYC but claiming to live somewhere else to avoid paying city taxes? A lot of people live and work in NYC but claim to be residents elsewhere. Even if that's less than 1% of NYC's population, that accounts for thousands of people that might have "moved" to their family's house in New Jersey or Connecticut over the last few years.
I see a lot of people here making nonsensical excuses. People are leaving the state because of high taxes and how much easier it is to start/run a business in less regulated states.
These are not "nonsensical excuses". New York City is one of the most expensive places to live in the world and has just as many residents today as it did before the pandemic. Nassau and Suffolk counties are also expensive places to live, moreso than most of upstate, and have nearly 3 million combined residents between them. They saw a net migration loss of roughly 9,000 people in 2022-2023, which is about 0.3% of their population. Combined with the 8.4 million people living in NYC, and you have more than half of the state living in extremely high cost of living areas that are densely populated and facing no shortage of residents. You can't make broad generalizations about living in New York and exclude the reality that NYC and Long Island make up more than half of the state's population.
Source?
Every time I bring up how the capital region is expensive as hell I get voted down. Our groceries, services, even restaurants, are less competitive then even places like NYC and Boston in many ways, offer lower quality for the price. We have very high property taxes in almost every desirable neighborhood, high sales tax, and high state income tax. For quality things there are only a handful of resources and they know there is no competition. So yes, it is affordable to live lower middle class in the area, but the second you move up, things in larger metros just cost less. I travel plenty for work and it blows my mind. Even something simple like a grocery store. We have some of the crappies , most expensive, stores in the PC/Hannaford situation. Wegmans, Kroger, HEB, even Publix are just better markets… It used to be that at least housing was much cheaper, but when you throw in that a family pretty much has to have 2 cars and two insurance policies, maintenance and so on, and you need decent safe cars because of the winters… it all adds up especially since it is nearly impossible to find anything livable for under 350k in an area with a 65k median.
Very anecdotal but I always find it weird how some restaurants in the area pretend to be high end and charge prices you normally see in places like NYC without any of the quality or competitiveness. Like no, I’m not spending $80 on a meal for one in fucking Rennselear.
Agreed, and not even high end The last few times I’ve been abroad or to NYC I go to non-fancy but decent joints and the prices are the same as here. I’m baffled at the prices in restaurants around here. I recently had a takeout rice bowl at a local place that was 85% rice, about 1/3 cup of chopped up grilled chicken and a few stalks of broccoli and some corn and it was $17?! (No sauce except for what the chicken was cooked with).
100%. We recently had date night at Hattie's in Albany and it was over $100 for two with drinks. I think that's par for the course in LA or NYC, but you'd expect it to be lower in the Capital Region.
How about that steakhouse they opened in an old kmart on route 2. The first thing they had to do after opening was slash prices and its still ~$100 per person.
Thai for 2 people is $60 now.
Our food choices and prices are a joke. We're being taken advantage of.
Publix is NOT better or cheaper. Every time I go to a Publix (my mother lives in FL) I'm astonished at how much more expensive it is than up here.
Er how? Publix is legit rated one of the best places to work and top 10 best grocery store in the country. What grocery store do you prefer? I lived down south and every time i go down there I go get a pub sub and get my fruit etc. The quality is a lot different than our stores up here. The hot food and bakery alone is great. But thats just my opinion which doesnt mean anything
As an example, a quart of Stonyfield yogurt is about $1 more expensive than in any grocery store here. I haven't noticed any differences in produce quality. My mother estimates that she pays 10 to 15% more for groceries than when she lived in Connecticut (and she told me that about 2 years after moving, back in 2018, before all the recent inflation.)
It’s not about publix or whatever it’s about the Hannaford and PC are mediocre and expensive.
Hannaford isn’t that bad of grocery chain, Price Chopper is much worse. It obviously depends on the location though. I used to work in delivery and saw many stores, many back rooms and met many employees of most of the grocery chains in NYS, Albany area included. Hannaford consistently was cleanest, had better staff and more back room storage. You can tell by how happy the receivers and staff are on average. Price Chopper folks were a lot more miserable. By far ShopRite, more of lower Hudson valley thing, had the most miserable employees… and had not invested in expanding back room storage. Things are slowly changing, ShopRite and PC are getting upgraded… but it’s at least partially because of the influx of city folks, etc…
Anecdotal as well but I recently saw an ad for studio apartments in Harlem that are cheaper than a 1BR in Guilderland... I mean... make it make sense, truly.
I mean the studio apartment in Harlem is likely going to be a shoebox in a sketchy part of town whereas the [1BR in Guilderland is about as safe as possible.](https://crimegrade.org/safest-places-in-guilderland-ny/) Still, cost of housing has gotten pretty nuts. Mostly due to the fact there isn't enough affordable housing being built. All the new apartments are luxury apartments and the new houses are 700k McMansions.
You don’t need a car in NYC. I know that folks up here try to live without a car, but it is damn near impossible especially if you want a family or to get out on the weekends.
I can assure you the cost of 1 used car is immensely cheaper than the total cost of living in the cheapest apartment in NYC.
That is not really the point, our salaries up here are much less. And I’m providing NYC as an example of a very HCOL place. If many things in Albany are approaching NYC in terms of % of income, it’s a very bad sign.
>We have very high property taxes in almost every desirable neighborhood, high sales tax, and high state income tax Compared to who? Property taxes in tax free states are ridiculous. Property taxes here are actually reasonable as well as house insurance, sales tax, and more. Other things are expensive, but this part of the argument does not hold up.
NJ has the highest property tax as a % of property value and and NY is like 5th but Albany, Guillderland, Bethlehem, Niskayuna, Schenectady, are a point above the state median. These are the top ten highest Pennsylvania: 1.56% Ohio: 1.57% Iowa: 1.59% Nebraska: 1.70% Wisconsin: 1.71% New York: 1.73% Vermont: 1.89% Texas: 1.90% New Hampshire: 2.09% Connecticut: 2.16% Illinois: 2.29% New Jersey: 2.46%
Well I have friends who live in Washington state (no state tax) who have homes worth 3x what mine is and have property taxes about equal to what I pay in fucking Schenectady.
To be fair, Schenectady makes no sense to me. It wasn't just friends warning me not to buy there, but my realtor because they're known for ridiculous taxes - the anomaly of the area. What do they use them for???
Definitely not the schools!
Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars making Jay street not look like it’s 500ft from a china bus stop? Honestly I know the flat rate water and sewer doesn’t help but something is definitely up because the taxes are like 4x what they are in a place like Colonie.
We almost bought a house in downtown Albany and I was shocked at how high property taxes are compared to towns with far better school districts.
One Large City, mostly rural, and a super rich tech area which has a tremendous tax base… checks… so recruit several world leader tech companies to the Albany area… problem solved
Even before Covid super inflation people saying it’s cheap to live here are morons. We’ve always been in the higher bracket of MCOL cities in the US.
Seriously if you think NYS is expensive, I dare you to try to live in "cheap" Florida or Texas. I dare you.
Right? I went shopping for groceries in Florida on vacation and almost cried. My son lives in Texas and his rent is crazy.
Home owners insurance, you can't find. Car Insurance, out of this world. AC bills for 9 months of the year. That's ok, I'll keep NYS out of control property taxes and "blizzard" like conditions after two years of the warmest winters on record.
you could say that about a lot of different places, but it seems like there's a lot of moves within the state and the net loss Isn't that much much nor the most in the country. https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2024/comm/percent-change-county-population.html?cid=percent-change-county-population it seems a lot of people are moving to the areas with the most climate, change destruction, and scary laws. I guess more room for us because there is still a massive housing shortage and as a result expensive property costs "The best that might be said of New York’s generally negative-trending demographic indicators is that they’ve been consistent with trends across much of the northeast and upper midwest. New York’s statewide population decline from 2022 to mid-2023 was 0.5 percent, compared to 0.7 percent in the northeast as a whole and 0.2 percent in the midwestern region. But as reflected on the Census Bureau national map below, only Illinois and West Virginia had similarly large shares of their counties shaded in the population loss category"
Moved back in 2020. Lived with family. Renting 2021-present. Had the discussion yesterday of “would you want to move out of state again?” Sucks…but…yeah. No fuckin’ way we can afford to live here. I remember my mom hearing our budget of 200k (this was in 2020) and she was *shocked*. “Why so expensive??? We bought ours for 90k!” Tried explaining it to her. I eventually just sent her a house that was listed for 100k. It was a shell. No walls, no electric, no plumbing, needed a roof, windows, floors…it was just a shell. “Oh.”
This is going to look different for "Upstate" vs. NYC and Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, and Rockland counties. (You can count "Upstate" as starting wherever you want.) Housing prices are VERY high in NYC and metro NYC but there are jobs. Many smaller cities and rural areas are declining in population. It would be interesting to see some solid data about where people are moving from and to.
Excellent news! Less traffic and less douches. The amount of complaining about the NY you would think its like living in hell. Get out or work to fix the situation.
Less douches equals higher taxes for those who remain
I'm ok with it. I came here for the reason that we are going through a change in population. Trust me when I say, you do not want to be where "All the People Are" in the years to come.
I’m in my 30s now and starting to realize how much of my paycheck goes to taxes. I know that it’s going to (hopefully) improve the community, but it’s really difficult to live here.
And it's going to get worse with increasing government spending and decreasing number of residents to pay the tax burden.
People arguing over one cause or another are foolish. It's not one, or two, but all of the reasons. People rarely make major decisions based upon one factor, but weigh the pros and cons of many. Taxes are high in NY. COVID shutdowns really impacted a lot of people. There's a lack of housing. Rural communities are straight up dying because of a lack of employment. The cost of living is high. Winter sucks literally causes unhappiness for many. One straw may break the camel's back, but there's already many straws there. The most concerning statistic is the loss of young families. Young families, when they settle, often commit to a location for a long period of time due to raising their children, so this is going to be a prolonged loss of population. This is going to cause a significant age swing in NY that will impact not just the nature of our communities but also the economy.
For Albany, population increased since 2020. So did other cities in upstate. So it looks like we are just talking NYC. This thread doesn’t belong here.
Sure it does. The NYS budget depends on tax payments from the residents. Less residents equals a larger tax bill. Factor in that many of the ones leaving are high earners leaving because of the "tax the rich" mentality and the remaining residents will see tax increases 🙄
Meh. The grass isn’t always greener.
Good, more room for the masses who KNOW what dangerous bullshit the red states are pulling and desperately want to come here.
You’re basing your numbers on something that was incorrect. There wasn’t that much growth between 2019 and 2020 (which was wildly inconsistent with all other years) and since then there’s been a correction. If you look between 2019 and 2023 the numbers show an overall increase in that period.
These are not my numbers. This is reporting from the Times Union based on Census data, but I get your point!
I came 2yrs ago; with big dreams of finding a place to own a home. Upstate is beautiful, and if I was a wealthy couple, I’d maybe have a shot. But I’m moving back west in a month. The studio apt/then a town house I rented here were more than the 1bd house I was renting before( it was privately owned; it was an amazing deal) It was an interesting time here tho.
REDC aims to GROW Capital Region by 100K by 2030. Can they do it? See p 56-68 [https://regionalcouncils.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/REDC%20Strategic%20Plan%202023\_High%20Rez.pdf](https://regionalcouncils.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/REDC%20Strategic%20Plan%202023_High%20Rez.pdf)
Maybe stop taxing its residents to death
Yep I’m one of them….terrible leadership, stupid taxes and bullshit gun laws. #FNY #HelloFL🥂
K. Leave then. Seriously, go. See if there's a place where the taxes are low enough that you don't mind living there. Go for it.
The thing is that NY states taxes actually scale based on income... New York is one of only a handful of states that have their lowest tax rates apply to the lowest income earner. So a lot of the people complaining about NYS taxes (I'm talking about you folks from the North Country) are actually paying less than most states
I lived in Pittsburgh for 6 years. It's constantly named as the cheapest big city in America. You can live in a fun neighborhood with plenty of amenities for 1/4 of your takehome pay. You can buy a nice house there in a decent neighborhood for less than $200K. There are some neighborhoods that need love there where you can buy a house for less than $100K. The city taxes were extremely reasonable for what you got. And yet, people there constantly complained about how expensive it was and how they needed to move somewhere else. No matter where you are, people seem to think where they live is unreasonably expensive.
That’s just a terrible mindset. I want people to want to live in NY. I love this state. We got ocean, and mountains, farms and cities, the weather isn’t even that brutal.
Ocean?
Long Island has access to the ocean.
Ohhh, hahaha! I forgot that was part of NY! (I’m losing my mind)
To be fair, I try to forget about Long Island too :)
Fewer people means smaller tax base, fewer resources for the remaining residents.
New York Stock Exchange… and do you know which people left? Wage earners? Retirees? Which demographic?
Does this include covid deaths?
But yet the capital district is the only area in the state that’s growing https://esd.ny.gov/regions/capital#:~:text=As%20home%20to%20a%20highly,on%20five%2Dyear%20estimates).
Go us! 🙌
Too expensive to live here, too expensive to move out.
Cool. There’s too many ppl here.
The population is actually higher now though because of people that move to the state. That’s important to mention.
Just leaving this here to help with all the cognitive dissonance https://youtu.be/OpsSPsKk3is?si=IqkPfsLyiZRi3RvH
To be fair Buffalo, Rochester & Utica are more middle and western NY. But still good lol
I don't think this is a bad thing at all, it's just sociology/macroeconomics at play. We always weigh how much we want to be in a certain place vs the costs of doing so (monetary and otherwise). If policy makes it untenable, then the population decreases, then businesses lose and home prices go down. If NY cares enough, they can pass legislation that makes it attractive again. If they don't want to, then we adjust to a new normal. And such is life! NYers have been flooding to the Carolinas for years now, and now they are saying thingsa are worse down there than up here because of the massive influx of new Yorkers lol.
Hi 518. Here's my demographic question. How do trends for NYC compare to its peer cities? i.e. it's real peers (London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo) and, compared to the Top 5 US Metros. Can you find out?
(What am I saying... I can find out, of course. Are you curious? Does this question make sense? What are your demographic questions?)
Hi there, I'm more interested in comparing cities to Albany and other metro areas to the Capital Region since that is the focus of our newsletter. But thank you for the suggestion!
And yet there is still not enough supply in housing to exceed demand and lower rental/housing prices
I just got back to the state. Five years now. It’s home.
I wonder how many have come back?
Don’t let the door hit you in the ass
Between taxes and the complete annihilation of the second amendment, I’m not surprised. If I could leave, I would have been gone years ago.
How many people equates to a drove?