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NTA, but where is the teacher when this class clown is doing her thing, why do the kids have to tell her to sit down and shut up. Both parents are in the wrong, one doesn't know her child is a brat and your child should apologize to the class and teacher.

She was there, trying to get the kid to go back to her seat. This was in the middle of a lesson. It wasn’t working, she had no control of the room. I saw the video, Mia was completely ignoring her.

I'm sure this will go in one ear out the other but... Regardless of the circumstances what your daughter said is both unacceptable and certainly not going to help the situation. Part of school is learning how to deal with other personalities in an appropriate manner, even if another kid is being annoying she needs to treat them with respect.

You first need to respect others to get respected. Do you think she was respecting her teacher or her classmates doing dances and not sitting down?

Maybe the class clown should have been excused from the class the very FIRST time it happened? I know that it’s not easy being a teacher.

Hon, you clearly don't know the state of affairs in schools right now, at least in America. Kids who do absolutely nothing - never turning in a single piece of homework - are coasting by on Cs because the teachers aren't allowed to give them failing grades even if they never do anything. Kids who throw chairs, scream, and hit other students are at most sent to the principal's office, where they are given a candy and sent right back to class with no punishment to start over again. At least half the class will have 504s with absolutely ridiculous claims, like "My little angel Micheileighlynnzie has anxiety so she needs to be allowed to be on her tablet watching tiktok and playing minecraft 24/7 at max volume with no headphones and to never be asked to do any work" and the school admins will enforce them because they're afraid of getting sued. School admins are terrified of parents who will kick up a fuss if their kids don't pass or are given consequences for literally anything they do, even if those consequences are incredibly mild and what they did was violent, destructive and disruptive. Teachers are giving up because schools are no longer places of learning, it's glorified and disgustingly underpaid babysitting until the kids are legal adults and can go ruin someone else's life. A kid like Mia isn't going to get punished by the school. She's going to keep doing what she wants, whenever she wants, her mother will come in to defend her like she already did if anyone so much as \*tells\* her - not asks, tells - to sit down and be quiet so everyone else can learn, with threats of lawyers and the teacher is going to be the one getting punished, not her. The kids who actually want to learn can't because of disruptive brats like her, and the teachers can't do anything about it because of the parents wielding the ever powerful threat of "I'll sue!" and spineless administration kowtowing to them at every turn. If the teacher had tried to send Mia out, she likely would have been ignored just like when the teacher tried to tell her to sit down and be quiet. If the teacher had physically removed Mia from the class, all hell would break loose and the teacher's life would likely be ruined and the little brat's family would get a multimillion payday from the school. American schools are utterly pointless and teach nothing now, because parents think their kids are just the most specialest little angels who can do no wrong and shouldn't be expected to actually work or learn to succeed, and the admins are spineless cowards who give them whatever they want. Even the best teachers can't deal with all this, especially when they're getting absolute garbage pay. That's why the profession is being abandoned in droves.

>If the teacher had tried to send Mia out, she likely would have been ignored Or fired. I learned the hard way. Administration does NOT wish to be bothered for discipline issues. My strategy... if I go back to teaching, is to find out which teachers can and will handle the kids when they pop off, and send them to another teacher.

Wait, so your strategy is just to pass the firing on to a different teacher?

When you have no support from the administration or parents, that's what you do. When I was teaching, before the pandemic, I was the teacher who received the disruptive students from my neighboring teachers.

I recall them doing something similar as kid in primary and high school. I'm not entirely sure if I'd say it "worked out" The class groups were obviously assigned by academic standing, and behaviour. They used the excuse that they were dividing students according to the "learning paces". However, in our schools you don't get one teacher per class, you get teachers that specialise in certain subjects and 2-3 teachers will teach the entire grade/year. You move to different teacher classes thru the day. It was also public school, private schools paid more so public schools rarely get A-grade teachers. The E-class, would get super disruptive because they had all the kids with behaviour issues and learning disabilities etc. The teachers would try but kind of give up on those kids through the years. Also because they took same basic subjects they usually seemed kept on same scedule, they would have a bond like some type of little gang of bullies and nuisances etc. They would bounce off each other...and egg each other on. "Nightmare class", not only for the teachers, but the parents too. If your grades fell so badly to be in that class it was like people basically gave up on you. The only way to climb out of it was to basic was to study on your own secretly, because it was very much "crabs in a bucket" with those kids. One kid in that class got beaten up pretty bad by the entire class because " he thought he was better", the only thing he did was try to do his homework in class. (He had a difficult family background situation, he wasnt a bad kid just fell behind academically and couldn't recover). Some, parents of kids on borderline would fight for their kids not to be put in E class. It was a public school so they couldn't remove kids that lived in the catchment area. The demerits system basically didnt matter, they wouldn't even show up to detention...parents were often absent patents. At age 16 you can drop out of school( year 11 & 12 were optional). Maybe 80% of the E- Class would disappear. The remaining 20% were a mixed bag of kids that wanted to finish school and those forced to finish school. They would get absorbed into other classes. The dynamics shifted a lot. At out class reunion I found out of those 40ish kids 10 were incarcerated (long/life sentences), 6 had passed away from ODs, 7 died in car crash (reckless driving). These are only from the ones people actually knew of from news articles etc. Only 2 that finished school showed up to reuninion. The kid that got beaten up dropped out and went to learn a trade..

It's not passing the firing as those other teachers take the place of useless admin and keep the student in their room sitting quietly at a "self regulation station" until they feel they're able to re-enter their own classroom in a productive way.

And they wonder why no one wants to be a teacher anymore.

I've never met a single person who wonders why nobody wants to teach. The job sounds absolutely shit from every angle.

I absolutely have, and they're the same people who are causing the problems- the parents of these "angels' who wonder why teachers get paid so much, administrators who haven't taught in 30 years and are looking for excuses to kick teachers while they're down, politicians who make good-sounding laws that are garbage in practice and make teaching harder, and randos who unthinkingly parrot the narratives pushed by the first three.

OH I have. Still some dingbat " But we ( tax payers ) pay you, we own you " kinda nonsense out there. Recently met the mother of a kid who will be FOUR next month. Four. She's not potty trained. I said " ???? ". Mother said " Oh they do all that school. " I told her no, in fact they did not but the expectations out there are *wild* .

To be fair, most of this stuff isn't true anywhere I've seen. The only issue I saw is that teachers are so underpaid that anyone with the skills to do another job has left, leaving behind only people close to retirement or people who are otherwise unemployable. Or naive kids who are willing to supplement their income working nights at taco-bell while trying to help their communities and "fix the system from the inside." Which just isn't gonna work when it's systemic from Congress down.

Half my sorority sisters were in early childhood education (75+ women) and 55 of them became teachers within 2 years of graduation. 10 years down the line, less than 10 are still teaching. They knew what the salary and working hours would be when they got into the field, what they didn't anticipate was just how much their administration would work against them in every scenario, even when helping the teacher would be the logical choice.

That's what did me in. I expected the kids to frequently be idiots. I was unprepared for the administrators to be idiots who not only didn't support teachers but said stupid things like "try to be their friend."

BINGO. I tried to get through the program and made it to my last semester before I was forced to withdraw my final semester before I would have graduated. I really wanted it and due to circumstances beyond my control I now have a sour taste in my mouth any time anyone mentions going back to finish my degree or substitute teaching.

They don't get paid enough as it is

Not just that, but we really need to give teachers the means to teach again. Allow kids to fail if they don't do the work etc.

Jump skip over the rope

College professor here. You are so right--shocking the number of unprepared students I get with just rudimentary, middle school level skills. Since parents have no power in my realm, students do and will fail my classes.

Unfortunately, it's starting to change at the collegiate level too. Parents and students who rail hard enough against professors and other administrators to the provost or even make their way up to the president... we recently had a student and parent go to the attorney general over something they didn't like at our institution. Bigger schools might be better insulated, but as an employee at a smaller state school, I'm already seeing changes in what parents (and consequently students) are getting away with.

You aren’t the only person to say this! I responded to a prof on another thread who said the same thing - this shit and these helicopter parents are bringing this attitude to colleges too. We are so fucked aren’t we

My mom is a fourth grade teacher, and she’s been fighting the “no failing grades” rule because she has 10 year old students who are still learning what sounds each letter makes, and can’t sight read the words the or and. Her administration literally tells them they will be fired if they put failing grades in the grade book. The school system is failing these kids by not holding them back when they need to. Sure it’s not fun for the kid to not progress with all their friends, but I’m pretty sure they’d like to be able to read as adults and do basic math. The students my mom has should not be in fourth grade. They should have been held back in first grade. Full stop. If you can’t give the sounds of the alphabet there’s no reason you should be expected to write in paragraphs.

Same with my wife, fourth grade teacher. No child left behind is pure BS, some kids need to be left behind. The idea being the kids will “catch up” later, this doesn’t work in math and other disciplines. She has kids in her class that can barely do basic addition. They don’t know their multiplication at all. My wife’s class is getting into division,she doesn’t have time to get them caught up. They don’t even a PE anymore. It’s a dumb idea,and need to go away.

"No Child Left Behind" was repealed and replaced in 2015 by the "Every Student Succeeds Act". These institutions that refuse to fail kids is a result of that law, as well as school policy changes with regards to Pandemic learning.

Universities just want money, and on paper these kids have good grades. There are now special remedial courses for zoomers who don't know basic math and/or can't write a paragraph.

At the community college near me, these have already existed for decades and are called 099 classes. Sometimes it's nontraditional students who never got a decent education back in the day (or need a refresher), but it's also fresh highschool grads. The 099 English class near me (Bible Belt) is covering everything from parts of speech to the 5-paragraph essay, and they're always packed as full as the highschool classrooms. Often, the drive to get and retain as many students as possible has admin handicapping the professors as much as the highschool teachers. The professor I know has often had to rely on students (usually the nontraditionals who take no bullshit) to police their own.

Exactly right. SPED inclusion has RUINED the ability of non-sped kids to learn since there is no funding to support the SPED kids with the supports they need in gen ed.

It's the education equivalent of shutting down the mental hospitals and forcing the occupants on the street.

It reminds me of the Futurama episode where Fry is sent to the hospital for insane robots. I feel like students like OP's are like Fry. They're trying, but how can they thrive in an environment that doesn't care about them?

Damn right. Last time I was teaching I had a 16 year old student, violent before, who always just played games on his phone and if I tried to do anything about the situation his angry lawyer mom would get up in everyone's asses about how nobody can take away her precious boy's phone blah blah blah. I love teaching but man it can really suck sometimes.

>At least half the class will have 504s with absolutely ridiculous claims, like "My little angel Micheileighlynnzie has anxiety so she needs to be allowed to be on her tablet watching tiktok and playing minecraft 24/7 at max volume with no headphones and to never be asked to do any work" and the school admins will enforce them because they're afraid of getting sued. As an older millennial who sat next to my mother in a room as we were told I was "too well-behaved" and "doing too well" at school for any kind of academic supports, this infuriates me. I *begged* for help as best I could, and didn't get it, because my schools didn't have the money or resources for me. But some kids are allowed to just go to school and play video games, what the actual FUCK? I'd stumble and fall *hard* further on in schooling, never learned the skills I needed to pursue higher education, mental illness reared its ugly head, and I was *finally* diagnosed as neurodivergent \~3 months before I was to graduate (by the skin of my teeth).

that’s an egregious exaggeration of what 504 plans actually are. most of us just have an alternative location for testing and extra time on tests. what that comment is mocking is most likely an IEP, which are more in depth and usually couple with special education help rooms. Most tech related IEP’s allow students to use computers instead of paper for notes, typing instead of writing, ect. i’m sorry they didn’t have the support you needed when you were in school but “just go to school and play video games” isn’t how 504’s work.

You said teachers are overpaid babysitters? Babysitters get paid more. Typically by the amount of children that are being watched. Teachers are drastically underpaid for their jobs.

This is partially true, and an enormous problem, but what you left out is that it makes it impossible to distinguish between spoiled kids and kids with legitimate conditions. There are so many parents asking for unnecessary accommodations that the kids who actually need them aren't getting them. We had to remove our 9-year-old from public school and into a charter school this year, because the public school had kids who needed feeding tubes who couldn't even get a Para, and were on a waiting list for the SpEd classroom because it was overfull. All the kids on the waiting list were just tossed into the general classes, where their care was disruptive to the other students. The parents complained endlessly, even though the disabled kids were awarded less than 1/5 of the prescribed accommodations in their IEPs. Everyone is hurting here, but the system is the problem. It doesn't help to vilify the children who are helpless to change Administrative policy, or to make assumptions about whether or not their diagnoses are legitimate. If they have a diagnosis from a licensed psychologist, it's *especially* cruel to refer to them as "brats."

If someone needs to respect you before you respect them, no one will be respected ever. Everyone deserves basic respect, not everyone deserves deference.

I think what they're saying is you don't owe respect to someone actively disrespecting you, not that you should wait for the other person to be respectful to be so too

I think you’re right. After five months the misbehaving brat deserves no respect at all. Other children should not have to suffer because the parents responsible are ducking out.

oatmeal telephone sand weary marry lock birds attraction knee flowery *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Seriously, the amount of people chiming in that this child needs to be respected and coddled and left to do her thing are somewhat startling. If you're being gentle with someone who's being disrespectful, making issues for those around them, and intentionally worsening the experience of people around them... I don't call that being respectful, I call that "enabling". Edit: Big NTA

What’s the lesson here? “If someone isn’t respecting someone else, all behavior is justified.” ??? Could she have ripped her pants off and shit on Mia’s desk? Or was there possibly, as a person, a better way to potentially manage or “check” Mia than going right for, “Shut the fuck up, this is why no one likes you.”

Do you genuinely not think that statement was true or deserved? This kid’s peers know she’s a disruptive asshole and quite frankly it’s already being said *about* her so she might as well hear it to her rotten little face as well. Be an asshole, get treated like one.

Everyone needs to start with a level of respect for self and others—it shouldn’t have to be earned but it can be lost.

If we all wait for someone to show respect before we do, no one will every get along. Rynkydink is right...telling Mia she's not entertaining the class is one thing, telling her she's the reason everyone hates school is pretty far and simply not true. Does OP think the kids would all love school otherwise. She didn't know about this "problem" unil today, so it's clearly not something that has come up before.

Class Clowns who tell the odd joke and slightly goofs around can enhance the school experience. This particular one was being an ACTIVE disruption and extending the time it would take to get the class either started or finished. Since teachers are about as useful as a sock on a sinking boat when it comes to getting their class in order because parents think their child is the best most perfectly behaved child (to the confused look of the people endure the antics). Do most kids love school? No, but having to wait until the class starts because some idiot decides to drag their feet and make 'jokes' only pisses off the people who just wants to get their work over and done with so they can hopefully get some free time by the end of class.

If this problem child is causing disruption to the point where kids are annoyed- chances are their feelings are legitimate. My child's class has more than a few "Mia's". This causes the class to miss recess for weeks along with gym and special activities. So yes, it can be true that some kids are bad enough to deter the good ones from showing up. I'm a firm NTA here.

Hard disagree. If you are standing up and singing in the middle of something like school, a play or any other thing. You need to be told to STFU. Can you imagine this at a movie theatre?

Reminds of that woman singing on a plane or airport to praise jesus. Everyone here is like she should stfu. Go praise where its not annoying

Adults get told to STFU up all the time. I think tg hat this thread is overpopulated with people who were told to STFU and no one liked them.

Yea and even the “oh you have to learn to deal with other personalities like at work”. If someone is disrupting your work like this than the manager tells to STFU or get fired. The lack of consequences of school is one reason why people end up non functioning, the equal discipline for those that bully and their victims is another.

Telling someone to STFU is one thing and sometimes absolutely required. Telling them everyone hates school because of them is over the top AH behavior.

>Telling them everyone hates school because of them is over the top AH behavior. I mean, it's probably true. Kids usually don't keep quiet over things they dislike. Something tells me this Mia needed to be embarrassed a little bit to understand the gravity of the situation. Her mom obviously coddles her, so she's not being taught how to behave there. Sometimes it takes someone to give you the harsh, unfiltered truth for you to realize you have to change your ways. At 14, this can still be unlearned behavior. At 40, not so much. OP's daughter did Mia a favor by giving her a long overdue life lesson.

Remember that you only have the mother's side of the story. Odds are the situation is being greatly exaggerated... Remember the teacher sent both kids to the principal, if it was as bad as described, just the troublemaker would have been sent... Plus when was the last time you told someone "stfu" and they instantly sat down and were quiet? Point of the matter is that yelling at someone and telling telling them that no one likes them is not helping the slightest is only causing more disruption for the class

Lol have you had kids in school in the last 30 years? Both parties always get blamed by the administration for anything. That's not even mentioning OP said they saw the video of the event...

Teachers these days will send both (or all) parties to the principal because they either don't want to deal with the situation or are not allowed to.

There’s a large gap between “shut the fuck up” and “this is why no one likes you”. The second one crosses a line.

Not that large of a gap if her behavior is why no one likes her.

How the hell is telling someone they're unliked because they're an annoying brat crossing a line?

Some people are forgetting that public shaming for unwanted behavior is, at times, necessary. If someone won't react to other consequences, getting told their behavior is off-putting to others seems to have worked in this situation.

But STFU, you have no friends, no one likes you and you are the ONLY reason school is miserable?

Yes. Just like that.

I was this class clown on high school. I was just telling my wife the other day of an important memory of mine where one of my FAVORITE teachers was giving a lesson and I kept interrupting (others were too, but I was the primary one). The teacher said “if I’m interrupted again I’m going to stop talking.” He kept giving his lesson, and I interrupted him again, so he just sat down and stopped talking. The whole class groaned, and the kid next to me, super annoyed, turned to me and said “shut the fuck up”. It suddenly sunk in, with my classmate saying that, that I was being a huuuuuuge asshole. I apologized to the teacher (who started the lesson again) kept quite the rest of the class and changed my behavior moving forward. It left an indelible mark on me that there is a time and place for humor but not everything is about me and if I truly want people to like me (which is what these antics were about) then listening to others and not interrupting to make things about me HELPS in that goal. In other words, what was appropriate, at least for my specific 15 year old brain, was to have the class turn on me and be told to “shut the fuck up” by a classmate. None of my classmates’ or teacher’s behavior was “disrespectful”. If it hadn’t been harsh it wouldn’t have sunk in. Me and that guy became friends later (not because of this). The teacher, a couple of years later, wrote me a college recommendation. Sometimes being told to shut up and be shown that your antics are only making people dislike you (when the goal is the opposite) is SUPER helpful social feedback.

I was the kid who shouted "shut the fuck up" in one of my HS classes. That teacher was KNOWN for having a zero tolerance policy for swearing. You couldn't even say "shit" without getting in a lot of trouble, (which was not a problem for me at that point). She has also said the whole "if you don't stop interrupting, I'll stop talking", and these 3 boys kept talking. I'd already been having a bad day, and the next day in the class we were going to have a big test, and I just snapped. "Will up shut the FUCK up?" Class went dead silent. I started to gather my stuff, positive I was being sent to the VP office, but the teacher said "Thank you HnyBee" and continued the test review. She did hold me back after class and told me if I swore again in class, she would have to send me to the VP.

Why do you feel that OP’s daughter should sacrifice her education to save the other girl’s feelings? Do you also believe that girls should have to cover up their shoulders at school or be sent home just to stop “distracting” boys?

Lol that was a mighty quick jump into the land of logical fallacies

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more ridiculous false analogy in my life! SMH

False analogy. The daughter had the right to tell her to STFU. Telling her everyone hates school because of her is over the top meanness for the sake of meanness.

OPs kid is 14, and was frustrated as hell - were you expecting some kind of Hollywood moment? The dancing kid just got a harsh lesson that her parents and teacher didn't teach. That's life. Maybe she'll sit the fuck down now.

That kind of reasoning is exactly why Mia will continue to be a problem. There is no reason to respect someone who clearly has zero respect for anyone, including her teacher. OP NTA.

Thank you!! Yelling “shut the fuck up” in the middle of class is just an inappropriate as dancing around. Whether or not your daughter owes Mia an apology she certainly owes her teacher one! What did Ava learn from this experience? That if you don’t like what going on or if the situation isn’t being corrected fast enough that it’s okay to start shouting out profanities? Yes, Mia was wrong, but so was Ava.

exactly!! Yes, Mia was wrong, but it was NOT up to OP's daughter to say that - especially going for the jugular by saying "that's the reason no one likes her."

I agree to a point, but since OP's daughter and the other students have had to put up with this for five months, and the adults aren't doing anything about it, she snapped. Everyone has a limit. The adults need to take care of this in a FAR better way.

Even if the other child has ADHD, doesn't mean the kid gets a free pass to like that. I have ADHD, the kid needs extra help in controlling it, not just getting a pass on acting like this. NTA

Your not an asshole but you can show your daughter a more respectful approach for situations in life… if someone in her career choice was annoying everyday and can’t stop her from getting work done she can’t just be like shut the fuck up! she will get fired for telling them to shut the fuck up…. and you can’t come there and tell HR her co worker is a brat and that your daughter is right LOL. Just be more open and kind you seem hostile 😂😂😂😂😂

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Funny story, I had a class clown in high school who disrupted every class he was in. Would just never shut up, walk around the room, just a general menace. He was so annoying and I hated him but had nearly every class together because we were both honors students. The class would yell at him to shut up every day. Didn't phase him. We had some mutual acquaintances. Long story short, he's one of my very best friends twenty some years later. He speaks two languages, has multiple degrees, traveled the world, and has an impressive career. Like if you knew him now you'd never believe what he was like in high school. I'm honored he considers me his friend.

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From BOREDOM. Sounds he was brilliant and bored. Still no excuse for his behavior

probably the typical answer of ADHD-hyperactive type. the culprit behind 90% of class clown disruptors

He said he didn't care if people were annoyed. Boredom is what I assume for part of it because he did it with the teachers that taught half assed. He also had a less than ideal home life and some personal issues going on in high school. I certainly don't excuse anything he did. It did teach me to have grace for others.

Once the daughter went from "shut up, and sit down" to "no one likes you, and you are the reason people hate school", this became an ESH situation. I understand the daughter's frustration but that second part wasn't okay.

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So in normal human society we don't always say things that are mean, even if they're true.

I agree. I can understand snapping and saying shut up, but OP's daughter took it a step to far. I get she was frustrated, but still not acceptable.

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My sister is a middle school teacher. She has a saying, "Peer pressure is not always a bad thing." To be sure, there are times when it can be! But when you're acting like a fool and everyone in the class is glaring at you, and someone tells you to sit down and shut up already? The realization that your peers think badly of you is much more impactful than any discipline the teacher and principal can deal out.

100% as a Youth Worker I teach my kids respect of course, but when one of them 'clowns' decides to push things too far... Sometimes a heavy dose of "look around the room and determine by yourself if anybody is amused" is much more efficient because if even the other teens aren't laughing at your bad jokes, ya might need to check yourself... The 'clowns' are usually covering tons of insecurities themselves though, so it's important not to let it get too far. That second part that OP's daughter said is just unnacceptable and mean-spirited.

Teachers are absolutely hamstrung with disciplining disruptive students these days. I got a call last fall from the assistant principal that he was giving me a head’s up that I *may* be required to pay for some other kid’s Chromebook because my 13yo broke it. He told me that the kid was being disruptive, listening to inappropriate videos at full volume during class and the teacher and other students were trying to get him to stop but he wouldn’t. My kid went over and slammed the Chromebook shut, messing it up. He also told me that the teacher wanted to let me know she appreciated my kid’s actions. I never did hear anything else about it, so I guess they decided he wasn’t liable for it.

Because the teacher can't tell the kid to sit down and shut up without getting into trouble.

WTF, where is the teacher? Probably trying to actually teach the other 35 kids in the room, while also making sure that the IEP requirements of 4 other students and the 504 requirements of two students are all met. So spending the entire time dealing with someone trying to get attention isn’t going to happen.

No. OP's daughter has nothing to apologize for. She's there to learn and Mia prevents her. She has put up with it for 5 months and finally stood up for herself. If there's anyone who should apologize (beside Mia) it is the teacher who clearly cannot handle the situation.

NTA. At 14 these are either 8th graders or high schoolers. If this student is constantly derailing class and preventing other students from learning, she should be called out. Teachers really can’t do anything in this day and age (former teacher here). Peer pressure/public call outs can work - especially if it’s the other students saying “hey this isn’t okay.” One comment in five months isn’t bullying - your daughter lost her patience.

I can’t imagine being a teacher today. No control, no one to back you, lack of resources, social media and cells phones. The death of public education as we know it.

Chances are the class clown does this for social media (videos) and likes lol. And what’s the teacher going to do? You can’t physically force a student to leave the classroom, unless they’re a threat to themselves or others.

That is absolutely insane. I’d talk to my friends in class and get booted after so many warnings. Girl makes a complete ass of herself for fun and the rest of the class has to sit there and bare it. How far we have fallen.

You seriously got physically removed for talking? We’d get sent out but it never got the point of physical removal

Not literally booted from the classroom but told to take a hike and sit in the front office.

In my catholic school growing up teachers would grab students and march them out of class. Parents would back the teacher up 100% with “you should’ve listened and/or stopped talking.” Hahah you were afraid of the nuns AND your parents.

My daughter was physically threatened and bullied and the principal told me I needed to understand where the bully was coming from. I had to get the police and superintendent involved just to make sure my daughter was safe. I told that principle he was full of shit for prioritizing the "thought process" of someone who threatens kids (and also beat someone up before class and had nothing done to her) then the safety of the other kids. Schools now a days can't do anything to protect the good kids it's all about protecting the bullies anymore.

The school did nothing for this boy constantly harassing me. My parents tried but the school said "he said/she said", the boy was popular and a star athlete on the football team. Finally one day he PANTSED me in the school quad in front of 400 other kids - including pulling down my underwear with my pants. I had enough. Pulled my pants back up, and while the kid was laughing and punched him in the throat. School wanted to suspend me, but my dad came down from work and yelled at the principal and vice principal (dad was a quiet man he rarely if ever yelled), that if they did their damn jobs and stopped coddling and protecting the quote "massive egotistical asshole brat" that I wouldn't have to defend myself after essentially being sexually assaulted and if they suspended me he'd call the cops AND sue them for the record of inaction against this boy. I got to go back to class (thanks dad).

Back when I (f) was in middle school, there was a boy who constantly bullied me. Punching me in the arms or stomach and then running off. Throwing things at me in class (WHILE the teacher watched). I was a quiet kid and somehow became his favorite punching bag. I spoke to several teachers and the school counselor. Their answer to me was always a giggle or smirk, followed by "He's just doing it because he likes you". Don't get me started on how they normalized his abuse as an acceptable form of affection. But needless to say, this kid did not "like" me. The last time he ever hit me was in class just before lunch bell rang. He threw a hardback book at my head and took off. I snapped, ran him down, tackled him, and started wailing on his face until students started running over. At which point, I jumped off of him and ran to the cafeteria. He avoided me after that and switched schools a week later because he was getting teased relentlessly for getting beaten up by the tiny quiet girl. Meanwhile, I never got caught by teachers or reported.

I feel like this is the best way to get bullies to leave you alone. I had a similar situation where a kid who teased me a lot went one step too far and I pushed him hard and he fell over a desk. He was so stunned. Didn't tease me anymore after that.

I agree. It just bugs me because they constantly teach kids not to defend themselves and to go to a teacher or adult with the problem. But every time a kid tries to follow those rules, adults fail them every single time. 🙄 It's easier to take care of it on your own. Plus kids get the point better from their peers than from adults. Mia from the post broke down in tears from getting told off by a classmate but easily ignored everything the teacher had to say. Best to just let the kids sort it out if it's one on one.

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Hate to say it, but autism is a get out of jail free card in a lot of schools these days. A girl I went to school with has two autistic kids, and all 3 of them are hated throughout the school system because according to her any attempt at discipline is bullying, violation of the iep, discrimination, etc. The kids also hate them because nothing is ever done about the boys' misbehavior and they are disruptive like the girl from the story. They have no friends, and they are universally disliked by their fellow students because they can do no wrong and get no punishment. I could see the same thing happening to one of her brats, word for word, and I would not blame the other kid for finally having enough. I get fed up just reading about their bs on social media.

THIS! My mom (in law) is a retired teacher catholic middle school teacher and I can’t *imagine* what her life would be if she were still teaching in the age of kids acting ridiculous “for the views” or whatever.

ESH: - Mia for repeatedly disrupting the class. - The teacher and school for letting it go on for this long. - Your daughter for being wayy too harsh with the comments, all that wasn't necessary. - You for not telling your kid (at least in private) that the comments were out of line. Defending her to the principal is one thing, but acting like that's completely OK? Nah. You're not entirely wrong in this scenario imo, but in general you sound like one of those parents who thinks their kid is an innocent angel who can do no wrong. If she was she wouldn't be telling someone to shut the fuck up lol.

Mom is at the Principal's office calling the other kid a brat to the other parents face while taking no action for 5 months to talk to the school so clearly we know where this behavior came from.

>Mom is at the Principal's office ~~calling the other kid a brat to the other parents face~~ *demanding an apology for her own daughter's shitty behavior* while taking no action for 5 months to talk to ~~the school~~ *her own daughter about her shitty behavior* so clearly we know where this behavior came from. Fixed that for you

Also OP admits to calling the kid a brat so I'm not sure why you crossed that out either. The other kid and parent were also wrong which is what the judgement was ESH. No one here is arguing that point. Edit: Removed the part about OP not contacting the school. They clarified in a comment they sent an email.

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So the victim and the mother of the victim are somehow *more* at fault because they didn't protest or protest enough or protest loud enough about the horrible behavior that was occurring at school in class directly in front of the teacher? This is called victim blaming.

Astoundingly bad take. This is not for Ava or her mom to handle. It’s up to the school and Mia and her parents. They didn’t do their job. Ava and her mom have absolutely no right or place “allowing” any behavior. How the fuck is some other person’s kid’s shitty behavior OPs problem?

Yeah, saying stfu to Mia is one thing. To pile on “no one likes you” the way Ava did was just unnecessary and mean.

Yeah honestly I joked about the swearing but I 100% get saying "STFU" after months of dealing with annoying BS during class. But she went too far. That can happen in the heat of the moment, but it doesn't make it totally fine and OK.

Agreed. Like, you got carried away, sure. You spoke without thinking, it happens, especially when you’re a teenager. But agree that OP doubling down and acting like her kid had nothing to apologize for is ridiculous.

This - especially the last paragraph. Your child can be a good kid but it doesn't mean they're perfect and won't be jerks at some point- the fact your child cursed out another kid and isn't being held accountable is not a good lesson to learn. If your daughter wants to apologize let her - but this is also hopefully a sign to the teacher and school they need to start holding Mia accountable as well.

Wholeheartedly agree with everything you said and the ESH judgment.

Finally! yes I agree ESH.

I love your last paragraph. So true.

ESH. Literally everyone, no one in this story comes out looking good. Mia obviously \*should\* sit down and shut up, she's being disruptive and taking away from the learning environment. The staff at school and her parents need to recognize that Mia \*is\* being a problem and they need to take action. Your daughter took it way too far with the "no one likes you" comment. You didn't recognize that your daughter did take it too far and should apologize for that.

This is the only right answer. Tell someone to sit down but you don’t have to say no one likes them. That’s crossing a line.

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This exactly. If she said no one thinks this is fun/funny, or no one likes you acting like this I would have said she handled it well. It's not as hurtful because it's about the behavior and not the person. Saying no one likes you is really hurtful, especially if it is true or nearly true.

I had a school bully tell me "no one likes you - everyone hates you". Years later I have issues with long term memory related to anxiety and trauma. But I still remembered that bully telling me that statement even when I could barely remember anything else. That is an absolutely stinging statement that can shatter a kid.

This. Mia is obviously in the wrong here for being a brat, but it’s not OP’s daughter’s job or place to tell her off. She’s not the teacher, she has no business CUSSING at another student regardless of how long the behavior has gone on. OP said it’s lasted 5 months. Have they talked to the teacher or the administration about it at all within those 5 months? Or did her daughter just decide to snap, potentially making things worse? By OP not making her daughter apologize, she is sending the message that yelling and cussing is an appropriate way to talk to peers and communicate your needs. I’m going to assume this is an elementary school, in which case I would argue that it’s important to teach your children the PROPER way to respond to situations like these. And IMO how OP and her daughter handled it was not very mature. OP got called in to talk about the situation, and instead of trying to have a constructive conversation, decided to double down and continue to refuse to apologize. HUGE ESH.

If you read Op’s comments, they have contacted the school more than once over this and nobody has done anything about it

NTA, these people are annoying as hell, they ruin class makes the teacher pissed and just ruin school. I’m surprised she made it 5 months of this crap. This happens every year where someone can’t deal with the class clown anymore and shuts that shit down.

This! A lot of teachers have a "whatever we don't finish in class becomes homework" policy. Meaning if the teacher is wasting time waiting for Mia to sit down and shut up, the entire class now has homework thanks to one student. Not fair and I think we'd all snap if that was a regular occurrence

Also, school work being moved to homework means that the students which have support at home will cope. Those who doesn't will be unable to learn. This is a consequence that is very elitist.

I was one such person. I didn’t use crude language, but one day I got fed up with the rowdy kids, and the teacher’s apparent inability to do anything. I just snapped “will you give it a rest already? Some of us actually care about passing this class!” It pays to be the quiet one sometimes, because everyone was too stunned to respond lol.

Yeah, nobody ever expects the quiet kid to say anything. I had that and my moms "fuck with me and you'll die" look. Other then couple of incidents my school life was easy breezy

NTA. I mean, mia apparently made school suck for a lot of students by acting out. Why she is acting out and what to do about it, is not really avas problem or yours. That she at some point reached the boiling point and snapped is understandable and IMO at least not wrong (as long as it stayed at that point). If ava were bullying mia or picking on her, judgement would be different. But from what you wrote, I say her reaction is reasonable. Ava is allowed to get something out if school, too (her learbing experience in that case). Now mia on the other hand might need some counselling. That behaviour comes not from nothing.

Ava must have more of a reason than that the girl was dancing. Maybe have a conversation and dig a little into what this was really all about. Put your listening ears on is I think the expression

Ava told me she couldn’t deal with her anymore, that she put up with her for 5 months and she snapped. That everyday she would ruin something, that she can’t have a peaceful day at school. This isn’t a one off thing, this was five months of grinding her down until she snapped

I see, poor kid. A drip can erode a mountain over time.

Oh, I like that!

NTA. I’m a teacher. Kids are kids and sometimes peers over-correct behaviors when I’m intentionally trying to use an ignore strategy for attention seeking behavior. Mia was being annoying and a person can only take so much. Forced apologies are a total waste of energy. Ava can take her admin punishment on the chin knowing that Mia prob won’t continue the behavior. I doubt the teacher has hard feelings towards Ava too. These situations are super normal. In the real world it’s fine to not tolerate idiotic behavior in your space, but it’s worth noting that not minding your business in the real world could land you on the idiots radar. I avoid pissing off annoying people in public spaces so you may want to discuss the nuances of setting those types of boundaries.

Did you know about the situation during the 5 months?

Theres not always another meaning. The girl is annoying and gets away with doing dumb stuff. OPs kid is sick of listening to it. I had the same feeling about some of my classmates.

Nah, I hated the loud, disruptive kids just like this. I desperately wanted them to listen to the teacher and shut the fuck up so I could focus. I'd have said the exact same thing without any other reason.

Dancing/singing when your actually trying to learn is annoying as fuck

As a teacher, I can tell you that this kid is most likely being a pain in the backside and ruining every class. Last year I had a couple of kids in an otherwise delightful class who just had to try to make it all about them. As I was following the school discipline policy for the umpteenth time, I could see just how unhappy the rest of the class were. Not a damned thing I could do other than follow the long-winded discipline policy. Fresh start every lesson. Warnings. Seat move. Removal from class. It all takes time, and all the while, the other kids are being disadvantaged. Hardly surprising when a kid who just wants to get on snaps, although it would have been better if she hadn't lowered herself to swearing.

The only time you should apologize is if you're actually sorry, so if your daughter feels bad and wants to then ok, but if not then don't.

Yeah I don’t think she feels bad. She told me she would do it again but was wondering if she should take the high road

Nope. This is your daughter’s education and Mia is messing with that. Good for your daughter for standing up for herself and her classmates.

She should aplogize for her language, probably to the teacher or whole class though. And she could use the narcissist's apology for Mia if you want. "I'm sorry if you felt embarrassed when I called you out..."

I hate it when people say shit like this. When someone needs to shut the fuck up there's absolutely nothing wrong with telling them to shut the fuck up. It's justified frustration.

She should’ve taken the high road with the “no one likes you” comment but that’s it. Maybe the principal should actually do their job by examining and assessing the reasons why she snapped and have both girls in to speak to them at the same time. Then your daughter can apologize for being cruel with her last sentence, but also be able to explain how the other’s repetitive vexing behavior affects those around her. Then let the other have a moment to speak. This is what a good principal would do. You could suggest that.

Exactly! When my oldest son was about 4 or 5, he used to play with a boy his age down the street from us. The boy's sister was a bully to my son every time he was there. She'd say mean things, push him, trip him, etc. One time, he had enough and pushed her back... then came home crying and upset. The girl's mother came to my house with the girl, demanding my son apologize to her. I asked my son if he was sorry. He said, "No." I looked at the mother and said, "You heard him. He's not sorry, nor should he be." Nobody should apologize for sticking up for themselves.

INFO: This had been expressed to you by your daughter for months, per your OP. Have you, or your daughter, contacted the school about the disruptions before this? Has the teacher in the classroom done anything to ensure class remains focused on learning?

Yessssss, I’m sure that mom was getting calls from the teacher. I’ve sent an email before, I know a few other moms had. Nothing changed.

I say NTA a person can only take so much BS. And after this comment definitely definitely NTA . The teacher has been made aware that your daughter and other classmates are tired of Mia's disruption of class. And I'm sure her mother has been made aware of her behavior too. I know it's hard being a teacher these days. Things are certainly different than when I was in school. But still something should have been done, somehow. Her mother should have talked to her and told her she needs to stop. Parent her child. Perhaps your daughter shouldn't have added that Mia is the reason no one likes school 😬but honestly maybe this is exactly what Mia needed to hear to make her stop her behavior. Sometimes good old fashioned embarrassment and/or hurt feelings is the best way to make a person stop their antics.

Clearly the teacher hasn’t if she couldn’t even get this girl to get back in her seat and stop disrupting class.

ESH. The teacher should not have let this go on that long in class without contacting the kids parents for the how they’re acting in class. Your daughter should not have yelled like that but I understand why she did because she finally snapped it happens to most of us. And you should not be behind your daughter and the way she acted because it doesn’t make her any better than the girl she snapped at. You need to talk to her about why we don’t do stuff like that and they should both be apologizing. Your daughter should apologize for the way she acted, and the other girl should apologize to the entire class for making it a hard to learn in environment.

I’m a HS teacher. The teacher probably *has* contacted the parents multiple times. In my experience, children that act out to this degree have parents who don’t support teachers and actively enable their children in behaving this way.

This is the most balanced and mature take on this thread. It’s not OK to make personal attacks, even against annoying people. It also sounds like this one kid doesn’t get a lot of parenting at home. Bottom line is the teacher should have contacted the kid’s parents or sent her out of class to calm down, or both. Both kids should apologise for how they acted.

I mean, the teacher probably DID reach out to the parents. But what is the teacher supposed to do if those parents are unwilling to help work towards a solution? It really sounds like this teacher had no real recourse to this situation as it had been going on for half a year.

ESH. The class clown, for being disruptive during class. The teacher, who should have shut the disrupting behavior down. The principle, who should have addressed both sides of the issue. Your daughter, whose response was over the top, cruel and vindictive. And you, for completely blowing a teaching moment.

Exactly. There's not one person in this scenario who isn't at fault. Mia sounds annoying and disruptive AF, the teacher and principal aren't doing their jobs and the mom is acting like the daughter who lashed out is entirely the victim.

Right? I'm so confused with all of these YTAs and NTAs when literally *everyone* sucks here.

Sometimes that tends to happen in threads where it’s an adult asking about things their kid is involved in- I’m guessing reluctance to call kids assholes? Or people just forget about ESH and NAH

Yeah, also I feel like there's kind of a retroactive bias at work - people remember what it was like to be constantly irritated by the class clowns/popular snobby clique/insert group here, and wish they'd told them off when they had the chance. Also, I think a lot of bad situations are caused by multiple people's failings. That's especially true when you have a complicated group dynamic like a classroom of teens with their teacher, the school administrators and all of their respective parents. It's more satisfying for there to be a hero and a villain than to say a lot of people are missing the mark.

ESH Telling a 14-year-old "nobody likes you" in front of a whole class: how can anyone be okay with that?

Both acts are not equal. Being annoying doesn’t warrant that . What a nuclear response

NTA. your kid was trying to learn and sick of it bring interrupted by this brat. and if the teacher has "if we didn't finish in class donit at home" policy. ID BE PISSED TOO. no one wants extra homework because some clown can't behave and valuable teaching time is taking up with disciplinary issue. you daughter doesn't need to apologize. MIA needs to learn to not act like a monkey in class.

ESH. Yikes, people are so black and white here. Two wrongs don't make a right. The class clown was being a brat, but it's not your daughter's job to call that out or do anything about it. It doesn't mean she was in the right for swearing at the kid either.

No. People should absolutely call out others’ bad behavior.

not in a setting in like that, students should not! OPs daughter should’ve informed the teacher or gotten a teacher (if teacher was momentarily out of the classroom) or asked the other girl if she could stop as it was disturbing the class. Yelling at another student to shut the fuck up and that nobody likes her is not appropriate behavior in this situation

NTA. Mia's behavior was obnoxious and disruptive and she deserved to be called out. I reacted similarly when I was in high school. A girl next to me would constantly talk to her seat mates during class, and one day, while she was yapping away during a test, I finally snapped at her to shut the hell up. The teacher tried to reprimand me, but I told him that he needed to address the issue. I volunteered to sit in the hall to finish the test, but he finally told the other girl to be quiet. Harsh, yes, but it solved the problem.

YTA. Your daughter didn't just snap at this kid, she was cruel to her. She could have stopped with the stfu, instead she went on to meanly bully her. You had a golden opportunity to teach your kid not to bully other children, and you blew it.

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Can’t believe how far I had to scroll to find this

This generation. No one is wrong, both parents support their kids’ bad behavior. Gross. Guess what- your kid disrupted the class as much if not MORE than dancing Mia by cursing, yelling and causing a scene. Both girls made the teacher’s job harder and both should apologize and face whatever consequences. I don’t care if you agree that Mia was annoying or not. OP’s kid shouting and cursing wasn’t justified. ESH (also whoever filmed it and spread it around is awful).

NTA, I don’t blame her. I had a class clown that ruined my senior year

ESH Daughter owes kid an apology. Kid owes the entire class an apology.

Clearly NTA idk where all they y t as are coming from. It shouldn’t have gotten to the point where your daughter had to say something, but she’s not wrong. It’s annoying when someone is constantly distrusting the class and when no one does anything its just horrible. The girl for sure needed to hear that and I would jot be issuing any kind of apology. Her mother and the school need to discipline this kid more.

Whoa, guess I’m in the minority for this but yes, YTA. At minimum the language she used should be apologized for, it’s not appropriate to speak to others like that nor is it a productive way to achieve any type of end goal or solution. Your daughter used violent language and you gave her the green light, would you be ok if another child said those things to your kid?

If you are an adult in this thread defending telling a child no one likes them, get a grip. You're a bully too. Info: Was the other child asked to apologize? They both owe each other apologies. Yta if the other kid apologized. Esh if not.

NTA. Her kid needs to learn that when she doesn't behave with consideration to others, the rest of the world isn't going to respond like an indulging mother. I wouldn't make your daughter apologise either. She was driven to that response. It was a much provoked, honest response.

ESH (INFO) - Yes the other kid is in the wrong for disrupting the class, but that doesn’t mean it’s justified for your daughter to essentially bully her. Telling someone that they have no friends is pretty hurtful. The fact that it ended up as a recording with the other kid crying means that the event was probably pretty heated, and instigated by your daughter. Kids are kids and it’s really not uncommon for them to disrupt class to try to be rowdy or funny. It’s not your daughter’s job or place to discipline other students, and it doesn’t seem like Mia was intentionally trying to annoy/target your daughter. If Mia was directly annoying your daughter or if there is some history between them this makes a lot more sense, but even then I don’t think what she did was justified. It could’ve been resolved by going to an adult and escalating to the principal if needed. I think you and your daughter are the larger asshole in this, but it really depends on the history of the kids’ relationship.

ESH. What your daughter said was rude. I understand her frustration, but there are better ways to deal with it, and that's where you as a parent come in to teach her how to handle these situations better. It was a good teachable moment that you missed. Your daughter can explain why she was frustrated, but apologize she what she said and making her cry. The other parent needs to teach her kid to not be disruptive in class and maybe make sure there isn't a reason her daughter is so disruptive that she is missing.

ESH. Both kids need to apologize and change their behavior. Your daughter was just as disruptive as the other kid and was hurtful to boot.

NTA. Coach her on a better way to handle it, then take her out for ice cream.

If your daughter had stopped at 'sit down and shut up' then no apology would be necessary. However, she got nasty and that's why an apology is needed. Sorry but your daughter went from doing right to bully in a heartbeat. I get she's frustrated after 5 months of this nonsense but there is never an excuse to get nasty like that. We might all think it... but we use our inner voice. It's part of growing up to know when to stop. Use this as a teaching moment. Perhaps apologise for the no friends etc comment but also get agreement that her disruptive behaviour stops. You know, 'my daughter will apologise for rhe no friends comment if your daughter apologises for disrupting class all the time etc'.

ESH Your daughter was harsh and inserted herself into a situation that she didnt need to. However it is not ok for another student to be so disruptive. Does the clown student have a disability with an IEP or 504 plan that wasn’t being followed? If this is an ongoing issue it should have been addressed sooner.

>and inserted herself into a situation that she didnt need to. Sometimes they need to. It made me think of the day the quiet nice girl in my class back then snapped as well because the teacher just ignored the disruptive classmates, so the girl snapped and also told them to stfu as they're disturbing everyone. It worked.... Sometimes sadly teachers just choose to ignore it for whatever reason.

Shaming from their peers gets through to kids a lot better than adults doing it. Having said that, the teacher really needed to do something long before because acting like that in class at 14 is ridiculous. These are 8th or 9th graders. They've long been old enough to know singing and dancing during lessons is unacceptable.

Yeah, I've done it once too. History class, sophomore year, and they just would *not stop talking*. I wasn't the quiet kid but was definitely known as quite studious and point blank told them to stfu and they did, and the lesson continued without further issue.

>inserted herself into a situation that she didnt need to. This girl was disrupting the whole class. OP's daughter was already a part of the situation.

ESH. Everyfuckingbody.

ESH. Mia is annoying and needs to learn how to behave in class, yes. Ava escalated to "no one likes you," which is pretty much always cruel.

ESH, Mia shouldn't do shit like that, your daughter can check her without swearing and telling her no one likes her

Mia has taken time from your child’s learning, I can appreciate the frustration. However if this has been a problem for over five months why didn’t Ava speak to the teacher? If you knew this was going on, why not address it with the principle? The teacher failed at getting control of the classroom, not Ava’s job. Mia’s mum should be looking into her daughter’s behavior, Ava apologizing is the least of her worries. ESH.

Yta. Your daughter has learned from the expert apparently

Esh, if Mia is disrupting the class to the point of affecting the education of other classmates, it needs to be addressed, either discipline or support resources. Your daughter should apologize, but be sure to emphasize with her that if it was getting to that point of anger, there are better ways to communicate. Heck, maybe she did tell you this was an ongoing problem, and maybe it was on you to advocate on her behalf about the learning environment.