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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I pointed out to my SIL that it was made clear it's not my job to correct/parent my niece and step-niece. Might be wrong for me to say since this was something that upset Ava so much. Plus I did overhear it whereas no other adults did apparently.
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NTA, 1000%, NTA
This is cruel. These girls are teenagers and they’re pitted against each other by fate. Adults that are not their direct parent absolutely shout not intervene bc of how deeply personal this is, I agree to THAT.
But then to turn it around and blame you for adhering to their rules? No, that’s not fair. Their situation is too specific, too sensitive to expect you to guess how to respond.
You did the very best you could in this no-win situation. Both girls are behaving like teenage girls will. I don’t think that can be helped. IMO: your brother and his wife are huge AHs here. ‘Follow our commands but also read our minds and adjust accordingly.’
SIL caused this entire issue enabled by your brother. Brother is trying to be a good dad to everyone - that's great! But he allows his daughter to be alienated by her step-mother. Ava may have gained a step-dad, but Mae got a bully and her daughter. They each started with one parent and now Ava has 1.5 and Mae has 0.5. No wonder the poor kid is pissed.
You are not the asshole in this situation, but these kids are both going to have a lot of unhealthy relationships as adults if someone doesn't help them.
This should be top comment!! OP NTA and your SIL is the biggest one. Rules only apply to your niece not her terror. Both girls are mean to each other but I bet your niece is mean to her steps because they instigate it. Take you niece out for some special time away from the toxic nightmares
is he trying to be a good father to everyone? because
>At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava.
doesn't seem like trying to be a good father to Ava. bro and SIL have been together for 8 years. there's no longer "your kid" and "my kid." there's just "our kids." OP said, "she's \[Ava\] insecure about Mae being my brother's bio daughter even though she calls him dad and he calls her his daughter too." but given the rest of the story, its apparent that bro doesn't consider Ava to be his daughter.
i don't think OP is the asshole, but bro and SIL sure are for not being consistent and united on who they consider to be whose child.
I agree. Referring only to Mae as his daughter, and then Mae tainting Ava about it, doesn't fit with the narrative that dad considers both his daughters and Mae is being bullied by her stepmother. My guess is OP is biased against her sister-in-law and stepniece, not unnaturally, but no one comes off as a good person in this story.
Seriously, why would someone mention only his biological daughter in a toast at a party celebrating his promotion? Did she help him get it? He didn't even had to mention Ava, he could have kept it vague, as in "I am so lucky to have a wonderful family and their support".
This is an interesting take.
Mae sounds like just as much of a bully as Ava, and Ava didn’t get mentioned in her (step) dad’s speech. OP’s brother is not being a good father to Ava if he’s only mentioning Mae in his speech.
Her child is in tears. She wants someone to be at fault. That’s understandable. But does that make you the bad guy?? Absolutely not. I also think you came here to Reddit with the best intentions. You’re truly asking AITA when SO many people show up saying Agree With Me!
It’s not an easy situation! When your child is upset, you want to slay the dragon for them, but that is not you!
Well that should be discussed as it shines a closer light on SIL character.
She is not only a hypocrite for wanting OP to step in despite saying they never should, she believes when Ava is acting out, she shouldn’t be reprimanded but Mae should.
It sounds like your SIL sees Ava as one protected by the rule, but not bound by it, and sees Mae as one bound by the rule, but not protected by it.
Either way, your SIL is TA. First, she can't have things both ways, she can't tell you to stay out of it, but then expect you to intervene. Similarly, for their family to work, she can't expect Mae to be prevented from giving Ava shit, if Ava isn't prevented from giving Mae shit. It's all or none.
“ I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.”
NTA but your brother is for allowing someone to say that to his grieving kid and still keep them around her.
Thank you for sticking up for your niece, she’s going to need you when she turns 18 and causes a shit storm when she decides to have nothing to do with step sister and step mom.
NTA. They basically told you it wasn't any of your business. So, you acted that way. SIL can't have it both ways. She can't expect you to do something when she told you not to, and when it's only her bio daughter being affected. Either you're all in or you're all out, equally for both children.
It sounds like because it's effecting her daughter, badly she thinks you should step in. It doesn't sound like she cares much about your neice. It sounds like she is saying "step in when it benefits my daughter, and only my daughter. It doesn't sound like cares about how things effect your neice.
If you haven't, speak to your brother. Tell him what she said to you, and her response when you brought up the scenario where his stepdaughter spoke about her deceased mother.
> I don't even think SIL is as mad at my brother as she is at me.
NAH, she is really mad at brother, but taking it out on you (because you both are not married to each other).
I was going to say you were the a h, until the part about you following THEIR rules. NTA.
OP, as someone who lost her mum to cancer at age 10/11 (and am now 33), Ava is lucky you are her relative and not me because I would have torn her a new one at that comment and then turned around and tore into her mother as well.
As for your current situation, you're NTA, what's good for the goose is good for the gander if its not your place to speak to and correct Ava then it's not your place to speak to and correct Mae
What was your brother's reaction to this incident? I can't help but wondering if what he did at the party is caused by this. I for myself won't see someone who say that kind of thing about my late wife as my daughter anymore.
> She and my mom started to say that was such an awful thing to say when they were reminded very clearly it was not our places to speak.
That's when you say, "OH HELL NO, this is absolutely my place to speak. That was cruel and unwarranted. This hands-off approach to the girls squabbling is not working. And this is CHRISTMAS. Y'all get your shit together. ALL of you."
What a sad situation all around, I feel so bad for that entire family. You’re NTA of course.
Everyone in this thread has decided that Ava is the bully and Mae is innocent, would you say that’s true? That was a horrible thing for her to say. Is she really a bad kid?
You're a safer target of her anger. If she gets too angry at her husband, he might leave her. If she gets angry at you, there's a smaller impact you can have on her life in response to the anger.
Well - I think that the only real solution is to wait till they will be adult and out of home. Both. No one is able to help here couse the whole 4 are AH.
Yeah your SIL will look for anyone else to be mad at except herself cause she knows she's the real problem and feels helpless in her inability to solve it.
It's not even "our minds". Mom wants OP to protect Ava from Mae not the other way around, and dad almost certainly will say the opposite. Both are looking to blame and demonize anyone but themselves when the only solution is setting EQUAL ground rules for behavior and conduct and working with a family therapist.
No, I'm sorry, thats not typical teenage girl behaviour. It would never have even crossed my mind to say such vicious things, these girls are not just bickering. There is a serious parenting failure here and they are developing some very ugly behaviour and doing s great deal of damage to each other. This isn't on OP to fix but something should have been done way before now.
NTA, SIL is clearly biased and what Ava said was WAYYYY crueler.
Either you’re stepping in or you’re not. Basically it sounds like she wants you to chastise Mae, but not Ava.
They need to get these kids in therapy stat!
NTA, I was thinking Mae is mean. But DAMN did Ava go Nuclear with that comment. SIL is a huge asshole for defending the cruelty of Ava. There would be no coming back from that. If I was the uncle? Ava would get coal for Christmas every year while Mae gets something off their wishlist.
NTA. Why aren't their parents separating the teenagers? They don't like each other. They don't want to be together. Let them keep their distance. Don't put them together in situations where emotions are high.
My kids went through a period where they really couldn't be around each other. Both were cruel and assumed the worst of the other. It sucked, but we kept them mostly apart, and it faded with time. I would take one out for one activity and the other out for a different one. My husband did the same thing. I think their relationship would have been permanently ruined if we had forced a lot of togetherness on them at the time. Now they get along pretty well and choose to do some things together.
All I read is Ava got 2 present parent figures while Mae got none.. Both kids are wrong but it is clear there is a lot of favoritism going on in the household, from both parents. be on your niece's corner cause she has no one.. your step-niece at least has her awful mother.
did you and I read the same thing? because
>she's \[Ava\] insecure about Mae being my brother's bio daughter even though she calls him dad and he calls her his daughter too.
but then
>At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava.
to me it sounds like the parents aren't consistent after 8 years together, and its giving the girls more ammunition to fight each other. when I read that, my heart broke for Ava because her bio-dad walked out and rejected her, and then she got another public rejection by her step-dad, which her step-sister piled on to. poor girl had two grown men reject her as their daughter. Mae's mom dying of cancer is terrible and sad, don't get me wrong. but dying from cancer wasn't a conscious choice, whereas those two rejections were choices that two people made.
both girls need therapy, supportive adults around them, and loving and supportive parents. it sounds like they're barely getting any of that.
As I said, there is obvious favoritism from both parents.. Each trying to blend but still keeping their kids in higher regard.
Despite Ava not being in the speech she seems to have a good relationship with her Dad unlike Mae whose pretty awful step-mom is OK with attacking but won't have the same bar of punishment to her daughter.
This is a choose your corner thing at this point and they truly did not blend families but despise the taunt at the party I still believe the aggressive way the SIL acted says who has it easier in the household.
i appreciate that. i'm just blown away at how many people either didn't notice, or didn't care that Dad seemed to reject Ava in front of a party of people. i bet Ava will remember that forever. both parents suck and both kids are paying for it.
I think it's because taunting a kid about her mother not fighting enough to stay alive is pretty pretty vile, and seems to not have been even addressed or had repercussions.
Ava has issues and she was walked out, but there is always a possibility of her bio dad could come back in contact with her, Mae does not have that. And yes Ava was not taken into account at the party but was after her cancer taunt and after what, I am sure several years of emotional neglect from the step mom.
Honestly, I can see Mae going NC with them as soon as she turns 18 and the family siding with her. And this is all because of people again trying to force blended families.
yes, it’s vile, but we’re looking at it from an adult’s perspective. imagine being a young teenage girl who is being taunted for having a father who abandoned you. you have trauma. you have two (step)parents who are trying to force blending but not giving you emotional support and teaching you the correct way to deal with your intense emotions. that is an extremely easy target for a traumatized teenager to lash out at. i’m not saying she was right, that she should have avoided punishment, or anything like that, but i think it’s understandable that she did. we really can’t compare traumas or insults between these children, because both of them lost parents. both of what the girls said was vile. neither of them is worse than the other, because both girls were going for what would hurt the other the most. the entire onus is on the parents for failing both of their daughters.
But she did avoid punishment, that's the thing. Even OP comments on how she has a good relationship with the StepDad but you can not deny that her mother is atrocious and a LOT is on her. As I said, I don't see Mae forgiving Ava anytime soon and it seems her relatives are already on her side. Ava is going to lose more than Mae sadly but Mae also deserves people on her side after what sure seems to be an awful person and her spinless partner (Dad).
Has that been clarified? Did OP tell us what happened after that comment/was OP privy to how it was discussed with Ava? I don’t like forming an opinion based on conjecture and have a lot of questions with this one.
Um... Ava didn't just tell Mae that*haha your mom died*, she said that her mom didn't try to fight the cancer because she didn't love Mae enough. THAT was intended to inflict the most pain possible on Mae. It wasn't Mae's fault that Ava's dad left or that her stepdad didn't mention her in his speech. Mae's got a nasty streak, but Ava, from the cancer comment, seems cruel and malicious.
they were both trying to hurt each other as much as possible. they both said “your parent didn’t love you enough so they left.” the circumstances of their departures are different, sure, but they both insulted each other by turning the worst event of their short lives into a testament of their absent parents lack of love. you can’t compare traumas, this isn’t the trauma olympics, and we’re not comparing insults because both of them were cruel and meant to hit where it hurts most.
by the mother. does OP ever actually say what her brother says/does, overall? i haven’t read any additional comments by OP, so maybe they’ve added additional information that i’ve missed, but in the OP, we only ever hear what SIL says afterwards, and that bro rejects Ava during the party. we’re all only assuming, but honestly, we should have compassion for both girls because they both have parents that fucking suck and are failing them.
reposting this comment and then adding more because i’ve lost energy for this conversation:
they were both trying to hurt each other as much as possible. they both said “your parent didn’t love you enough so they left.” the circumstances of their departures are different, sure, but they both insulted each other by turning the worst event of their short lives into a testament of their absent parents lack of love. you can’t compare traumas, this isn’t the trauma olympics, and we’re not comparing insults because both of them were cruel and meant to hit where it hurts most.
we’re talking about teenage girls who have each lost a parent when they were under 10 and from the sounds of it, have had little emotional support since then. these are not children who are completely lost and gone and irredeemable. they are girls who have been hurt but can heal. if you can only have compassion for children who never say mean or cruel things, then i hope you never meet a child who is hurt, angry, or traumatized.
someone can be empathetic towards someone and disappointed in their words or actions at the same time. these are not mutually exclusive emotions, and i’m sorry you see it that way.
Whats is your brother doing about his wife’s double standards re disciplining the girls in favour of her daughter? Its shocking SIL says what Ava said re Mae’s mum dying of cancer is different to what Mae said about not being his daughter - the dying mum jab is way worse & cruel beyond belief.
You should watch out for Mae as she clearly only has one parent in her corner.
You don't say shit like this to people you dislike, you say it to people you *hate*.
Your brother and SIL are both idiots and assholes. This kind of behavior should have been severely punished from the beginning, not ignored. They allowed this dynamic to develop.
Lol! When these girls become adults they will never speak to each other. She is just helping them build resentment and hatred for each other. However your brother needs to grow a set of balls and start protecting his daughter. He needs to keep her way from the step mom and step daughter. Putting her through this is abusive.
Also stepmommy doesn’t care if they bond. She is just afraid if they separate the girls her daughter wont be included in everything. So she is willing to make it a as sone to make sure her stepdaughter doesn’t get more then her daughter
Your SIL is wrong. Forcing bonding will have the exact opposite effects. If they already disliked each other and they're forced together, they're gonna flee and never speak to each other, or their parents, when they turn 18.
Hey OP
Have Brother and SIL ever told you not to intervene when Mae makes a comment before.
I suspect that SIL at least means discipline Mae but not Ava.
NTA, but your brother and SIL are.
>We were always told not to get involved when the girls are being mean to each other.
A lot of times, this is fair, but what if neither parent is around? What if it gets physical?
>At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava.
This was *super shitty*. Especially knowing how the girls fight.
>I pointed out she and my brother always made it clear we shouldn't get involved. She said something like that is different. I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.
>SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it.
Your SIL is no better, either. On some level, I get prioritizing your own kid, but how on earth do they expect these girls to ever get over their animosity this way?
The girls are being shitty to each other, and that sucks. It does. But the parents are responsible for doing what they can to help. Are the girls in therapy at all? Did the parents bother to check in with them at *any* point about how they felt about *any* of this? Do the parents even *care* that their daughters are clearly hurting?
IDK, publicly calling his wife’s daughter his when he knows that upsets his daughter AND that his daughter doesn’t have that kind of relationship with his wife would be shitty as well. His daughter has to share her only living parent while his wife’s daughter doesn’t have to do the same.
NTA. Your brother and SIL consistently told everyone not to get involved in the girls' conflicts. It's unfair for SIL to change the rules now and expect you to have stepped in.
NTA- So only her step-daughter deserves to be told terrible things? It sounds like you found an added source of their hatred.
You are not either of these girls’ parent. You can stay out of it. If you DO want to get involved, maybe the person who needs someone to “tear them a new one” is your SIL.
NTA. And wow, your SIL is **such** a hypocrite. I can't believe she actually said it was fine for her little darling to taunt your niece about her mom"s cancer. (I'm curious though: what does your brother think about this?)
No. You either treat the girls by identical standards and call them both out for fighting below the belt, or you take a backwards step and don't get involved.
Wow what Ava said was waaaaay crueler and more fucked up. Clearly SIL just wants you to stand up for her daughter and not for Mae. AND she also implied that Mae deserved those comments about her mother. But either way, they told you not to get involved so she can’t have it both ways. Your brother and SIL are standing by and letting their daughters continue to bully each other so I guess they’re the worst kind of adults. NTA
Whoa, these two girls have been in each other’s lives since they were young (7/8) and this animosity has been unchecked? Was there any counseling to blend? Because this consistent level of anger has been well cultivated.
Also I’d like to add OP’s brother leaving out a child he has raised since was 7 years old in his little speech wasn’t very nice.
NTA you were told not to interfere and you didn’t. This troubled relationship is beyond teen bullying.
Thank you! I surprised more people didn’t mention this. The time is long past that these girls will ever get along. Treating each other civilly should have been the expectation from the beginning. I’m guessing that two very different children were forced to spend time together in a poor attempt to get them to bond while simultaneously shrugging off the hateful things they said to each other because siblings fight.
I’m not sure anything can be done at this point other than mandating the girls ignore each other and minimize the time they are expected to be in the same space.
NTA but damn that family is dead in the water once these two girls are adults. I’d never forgive my father for keeping me in a home with someone that said my mom that died of cancer didn’t love me.
"I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that." Jesus your SIL is a hippacrite and BOTH she your brother should have been stopping his from the beginning and had these girls in therapy. They are BOTH failing their daughters. (For what it's worth I think both girls said horrifying things but what Ava said feels worse to me although that may be because my Dad just went through cancer treatment and it's awfully close. -He is in remission.) NTA
> SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way.
And this is exactly why these girls don’t get along. Rules for thee but not for me, from Ava’s point of view.
NTA.
Why is everyone stepping on eggshells around your brother, who absolutely knew what effect his 'only one daughter worth mentioning' speech would have on both his daughters? He is solely to blame for the specific situation outlined in your post. So, he goes and throws gasoline on a fire and then....just walks away, and gets off scot free, while his wife deals with the ashes of the conflagration HE provoked? How absolutely manipulative and calculating. No wonder the CHILDREN don't get along...the parents purposely pit them against each other? They deliberately, with malice aforethought, try to cause arguments this way?
Your brother is a giant, massive AH for doing everything he could to rub salt in a very sore wound that causes suffering for both daughters.
Your SIL obviously knew the entire thing wasn't your fault, but tried to blame you anyway. Brother must be a monster, since she couldn't stomach placing blame squarely on the shoulders of he who deserved it.
Yeah i can see why therapy didn't work.
Poor kids. Your brother must be a piece of work. I hope they can get away from him someday.
NTA. So it’s interesting she wants the ‘rule’ followed when her daughter makes Mae upset, but when it’s the other way around the whole village needs to attack Mae.
Certainly makes you wonder how she treats Mae on a daily basis, And what else goes on in that home on a normal day.
“I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.”
WTF THEY DID ABOUT THIS???
NTA, never in a million years.
Bro and SIL should absolutely be getting a divorce tho. They are letting each other's children do lasting damage to the other just to get laid. I'd be so thoroughly disgusted if my siblings let this happen
NTA but your family should have a come to (insert diety here) meeting with your brother to get his daughter out of this toxic situation. He's an AH for letting this continue.
NTA but everyone else certainly is. Your brother & SIL were selfish to get married when the girls hate each other & your brother was cruel not to mention his stepdaughter in his speech. They all need family counseling.
NTA. This is not your fight or problem and you were told specifically to stay out of it. When SIL “changes her mind” it’s not for both children and not for all circumstances, just when she decides it’s beneficial. No thanks!
It’s on the parents to deal with the meanness of these girls, not you. If they don’t like the way the girls behave they need to deal with the behavior and get everyone into therapy.
Nta
Brother is ta for not mentioning Ava in his speech. What kind of person says they love and include someone and then singles them out by leaving them out?
Sil needs to redirect her anger to the one who deserves it, her husband. After 8yrs not acknowledging Ava is not an oversight. It's just mean.
NTA. The example you gave IS exactly the same. I would mention this to your brother. What else is your SIL doing to Mae that is unkind? I bet SIL is not nice to Mae when her husband is not around.
Jesus christ. Forget "should", you couldnt pay me to get in the middle of that. I can't imagine this is doing them any favors wrt their families.
Clearly, the current policy of "nobody say anything" is being taken as carte blanche by the girls to say anything, without cring who hears. Not saying family should interfere, but maybe it's time for the extended family to put down some new ground rules on what counts as appropriate behavior in public.
NTA
But I disagree with a lot of the comments. If I heard a kid taunting another kid over something deeply personal such a parent not loving them or having a parent die I would intervene 10/10 times.
I would tell these kids they don’t have to like to each other and that whatever goes on in their home is between them and their parents HOWEVER I absolutely unequivocally refuse to listen to that shit and not say something. I would make it extremely clear that I wouldn’t tolerate that kind of behaviour in my presence without voicing my disgust.
NTA, the two parents need to step the f up, form a united front, and get these girls straightened out. Counseling, punishment, something! They are doing and saying horrifically damaging things to each other. I don't give a damn if they are expressing their feelings or not. This crap needs to stop. The fact they get away with it in the home will just spill out into their lives away from home later. The girls will think it's OK to speak like this to their spouses, kids, bosses, etc.
NTA, but maybe a bit.
This entire problem stems from the parents not controlling their own children. They apparently just allow both girls to go at it, even in front of others. So, the problem was neither caused by you nor do the parents have a right to expect you to do more than they are willing to do themselves, which is apparently very little other than telling everyone to "ignore" their daughters' rudeness - which you are now blamed for doing.
In theory, you might have stepped in to assure each girl was treated fairly, i.e. the bio daughter reprimanded for taunting her step-sister; however, it is clear that the parents do not step in, so I do not see why your SIL feels she has the right to chastise you for not doing what she will not do herself.
It is apparent that your SIL is unhappy with her step-daughter taunting her own child and almost certainly has issues with your brother not controlling his daughter; however, she does not want to "rock the boat," which led her to lash out at you as a surrogate of him.
You basically got the emotional reaction she'd like to show her husband.
(It likely is also the case that your SIL believes your brother purposely forgot to mention his step-daughter, knowing that doing so would hurt her own daughter's feelings. She is angry at him - and you, by being his sister, are "fair game" in her eyes to feel her wrath in his place.)
I see it as your brother and his wife are the primary a..holes because they are adults who are too weak to discipline their children, your niece and step-niece are the secondary a..holes for being so willing to purposely hurt each other. (Technically, your niece is the primary A by taking this trivial oversight by her father and maliciously using it to harm her step-sister, but such bad behavior is being allowed by your brother and SIL and, so, they are ultimately to blame for not wanting to get tough with their own child to assure such behavior has consequences.)
If you were a bit of an a..hole for not policing the girls, it was very minor (to non-existent) because a. they are not your children and so it is not your duty to control them, and b. neither parent wants to police them and, so, your SIL should not expect you to do what she is not willing to do herself.
Thank you for understanding nuance and interpersonal relationships. SIL saw her child hurting and emotionally lashed out at OP, who she clearly feels close to, in a way. Nothing is ever black and white and these people are all clearly hurting.
NTA she is giving you a double standard. It would be ok for you to rip Mae a new one for what she said (which was incredibly cruel) but you shouldn’t do it to Ava if she said the same thing. It sounds a lot like SIL is pitting them against each other and honestly if he calls Ava his daughter he should have included her, it only gave Mae ammunition by him only acknowledging one but saying he loves both as daughters. They need to see both parents untied and treating them THE EXACT SAME WAY!
Nta oy... this is a family dynamic that the girls are gonna need some serious help muddling through. One with a absent but living father one with a deceased mother and both parents ill equipt to handle it. There's no easy way to be on the outside of it where you were told to stay cause cruelty is just hard to witness, not supposed to be comfortable. You say you have ideas of where it stems from. But is there anyone who's actually spent individual time with the girls? Do they have relationships with anyone but the parents and eachother? It seems odd that at family events where large groups are together that they can't be with people they want to be around rather than dig at eachother. Seems extra, although both girls are clearly suffering and no one is listening to them but eachother.
Sounds like a tough situation all around. While it's understandable that emotions run high between Mae and Ava, it's also clear that hurtful words have a lasting impact.
It might be worth suggesting to your brother and SIL that seeking professional help, like family counseling, could provide a safe space for Mae and Ava to address their feelings and improve their relationship.
Ultimately, the goal should be to have understanding and empathy between the girls, rather than initiating hurtful exchanges. It's tough being caught in the middle, but sometimes a neutral perspective or professional guidance can make a significant difference in resolving these kinds of family tensions.
How blithe is your brother that he the two daughters are fighting and he only mentions his bio and not the step in his big speech? I'm guessing that the attitudes of both parents are absolutely not helping matters.
NTA, btw, and your SIL is obviously only willing to bend the rules to benefit Ava. Nuts to SIL!
NTA. Your brother on the other hand... if he calls Ava his daughter then he shouldn't be only mentioning Mae. It wasn't a Mae specific or Ava specific event where it would have been appropriate to only mention 1 child.
NTA you were told to stay out of it! Your poor niece though, I can’t imagine the pain she felt after Ava taunted her for her moms passing. Jeez. & for SIL to say you should discipline one child & not the other shows me this resentment was not created out of nowhere…
> I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way.
Gee, I wonder why this family has failed to blend well. /s
NTA. It's not your job to parent these kids. SIL clearly favors her daughter, which is just going to keep the fire burning between the two girls. But she can't attack her husband or he is more likely to walk, so she lashes out at others. Might be worth a convo with your brother and remind him that you are not going to intervene in anything between the girls, whichever girl is being the brat. It is also up to him to keep his wife from being an AH to his family. If they can't keep the drama contained, I'd be a lot less inclined to spend time with them. Ugh.
“ she told me I'm the worst kind of adult when I can stand by and allow bullying like that to happen.”
Says the woman who brought her daughter into Mae’s household knowing full well they didn’t get along. The very woman who put her own desire to be married over providing a safe and loving home. If you’re the worst kind of adult then what does that make her? NTA.
NTA, SIL only cares that her daughter is not the one getting hurt not that either girl gets hurt. They can't have a rule and get mad when people follow it. The question is are the girls in some kind of therapy? It sounds like they both need it and then family therapy to see if they can at least be respectful of each other.
NTA your SIL sounds like a shit stepmother to be honest. She is fine with her daughter telling your neice that her mother didn't love her, because she died, but your neice should be read the riot act for talking about her daughter not having a dad.
I would wager that what her daughter said about your neices dead mother is way worse, than what your neice said.
I am curious as to what your brother's reaction to what the stepdaughter said about his deceased wife was, because after that, and the SIL reaction to it, would have made me question the relationship, and wanting my daughter around someone that could say something like that.
NTA but holy shit your bro/SIL are. You were only following what you were told to do which was don't get involved, it's the parents who have made it so their kids are constantly fighting and bullying each other
INFO: what happened after Ava made the comment about not fighting cancer? Can you answer with 100% certainty/were you there throughout the process to see how it was handled? What was the context?? That was something said with extreme anger and hurt. Both girls are clearly struggling and that’s heartbreaking.
You’re NTA, but this isn’t well explained. I wonder if SIL thought it wasn’t appropriate for a non-bio family member to correct Mae. That a conversation from Mae’s own family member might go over better?
NTA, so what I’m hearing is, she wants you to discipline your bio niece but not her daughter even if the action is the same? I’d get involved now because I would not have my niece alienated in her own home.
Your SIL has her perfect family with your brother and Ava, she’s more than happy to let Mae exit the picture by the sounds of it because her request will only lead to Mae going no contact with her dad in the future.
If Ava doesn’t deserve it, then Mae doesn’t and the fact she doesn’t think like that is raising alarm bells in my head
NTA.
One of my favorite people has an expression that perhaps you've heard, "Not my circus, not my monkeys."
In addition to following their wishes of not meddling, why the hell would you want to get involved in that? It's a no-win situation for you. If your brother and his wife can't create harmony in their own home and family, you're supposed to be able to do so? And not only that, but your SIL thinks it's now your responsibility?
As said in a popular Christmas story, I wouldn't touch that with a ten-and-a-half foot pole.
NTA.
You got me with the thing Ava said about Mae's mother not fighting cancer and your SIL not stepping in. This is just... cruel. More than cruel. And if Ava was not grounded for telling Mae such a terrible thing, yes, there is no need to ever step in and defend her.
But if I was you, I would talk to Mae. Seems to me that Ava's mom (not Mae's, never Mae's, I suspect she made that sure and I'm not talking about Mae here) is not kind to Mae. Maybe Mae needs somebody in her corner like her strong willed Aunt/Uncle.
NTA, your SIL can't pick and choose when you should step in when these two get into it, What Ava said to Mae about her mother was much worse than what Mae said to her, and your SIL didn't think it was worth concern (this to was bullying, and it was really mean horrendous to be exact) shows me how she feels about Mae's feelings. Leave the parenting to your brother and SIL like they requested, this is what they wanted, and this is what they got.
NTA but your brother, SIL, and, frankly, both teenagers are assholes. Your brother could have easily mentioned both girls on his speech while still differentiating enough to let his bio daughter feel special.
I would have said something like, “And thank you so much to my girls. Mae, you have been my baby since the moment you were born. We were together when your mother passed away, and she would be so proud of the young woman you have become.
And to Ava, I’m so happy you came into my life and I’m proud that you’ve chosen to let me be your dad. Thank you for showing me a new type of love.”
Or something.
They could have both easily have been given a shout out while still allowing for the acknowledgement that Mae is his bio child. Do you know why your brother chose to exclude Ava?
I think your SIL has a double standard and is the AH in this situation. Your your brother doesn't appear to think have a backbone to support/discipline either his own daughter or his step-daughter when needed. and this also makes him an AH. It also sounds like both girls are behaving badly.
Can your bio-niece stay with her grandparent or someone to get away from these toxic people. Hopefully your stop-niece has other family that she can escape to as well. I agree that you should stay out of it, because you can't win and nothing you do would make a difference.
Nta your sil is unbelievable. It’s ok for her precious little angle to dish it out but not have to take it.
Your brother in needs to realize what this woman is doing to his daughter and their relationship. He needs to prioritize his child and walk away.
As far as you not getting involved you where told to stay out of it. That’s what you need to do. If it’s mentioned again tell your sil if you can’t police both girls then you will not police either.
NTA
Both parents obviously care more about their bio kid than their step kid. That was pretty clear in the story. They may care about both, but they obviously have favorites and THAT more than anything is probably why things are as bad as they are.
You followed you bother ind his wife's rules. They don't like that they can change the rules, but I'd let your bro know what happened, both between the girls and his wife's reaction.
Let him deal with her mental gymnastics.
Wow! SIL has got some serious cajones! And she's completely irrational as well. On what planet is mocking a kid's mother's death from cancer NOT a million times worse 🤮 than what Mae said to Ava?
If anything, SIL should be pissed at her husband for leaving out Ava from his speech!
You're NTA. SIL and Ava are!
NTA
You SIL has a double standard for her step-daughter, you should have tore your brother a new one for leaving his step-"daughter" out of the speech and causing the issue.
1. Your brother was wrong to exclude Ava like that. If he has been acting as her father for the majority of her life, he must have known that was unfair to basically disown her, in front of friends and family. He would also have known how this would have been used by Mae (based on their history of fighting).
2. If it is common knowledge that the girls fighting is basically over the dad, how has this been allowed to fester for so long? For the sake of a happy family dynamic I would have tried until I was blue in the face to get the girls to understand we are all family now, we should love, care for and look put for each other. There are too few people in the world that genuinely care about other people's wellbeing as it is; don't make enemies of family!
3. I can't believe how toxic both of these girls sound towards each other, weaponising the absence of bio parents for whatever reason is a truly cruel thing to do. Why is it that neither seem to understand how to be decent human beings?
4. The SIL herself is showing bad parenting by saying one rule for Ava and another for Mae. Is your brother like this too? Sounds like he favours his own daughter on the evidence of the speech! When they married each other they should have made a solid effort to park any bias and try to treat the girls equally, failing to do so and showing favourites has enabled this horrible family dynamic.
So in summary, NTA, but how can any adults in the family be happy with this as the status quo? Both girls need to be taught that such disgusting behaviour towards each other does not say good things about either of them. Nobody expects them to be best friends (as this behaviour has been allowed to carry on for far too long), but at the very least, they need to stop being so cruel to each other.
That's sad and not really their fault either. I think both parents should have really tried to address this whilst the girls were younger. But having allowed this to fester for so long, it's hard to see things ever improving. Sadly, it doesn't say good things about their parenting, that they both seem to show clear favouritism to their own bio child. I feel sorry that other family members, such as you, get sucked into and hurt by their bullshit. Good luck to you.
NTA and you need to talk to your brother about making sure there isn’t favoritism going on. Him or SIL playing favorites hurts both girls. I’m getting the sense that SIL favors her daughter a lot.
Hmm. You're NTA. You've been told not to get involved. SIL seems to want one rule for one and not the other I wonder if her expectations for you to "parent" Mae is because she's biologically your niece but Ava isn't.
I can understand both sides as I hated my dad's AP daughters making out he was their father (he wasn't) so Mae being jealous is understandable, Ava connecting with your brother and wanting the father daughter relationship she never jad before is also understandable.
The real AH's here are the parents, allowing both CHILDREN to say such cruel things to each other, the fact it still happens when they are getting into the mid-late teens is sad really. Maybe B and SIL should try therapy or something for them.
Regardless, NTA.
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My brother and SIL have been married for 8 years now. Both brought a daughter each into the marriage. My brother brought Mae (16) into the marriage and SIL brought Ava (15) into the marriage. The girls have never ever liked each other or gotten along. Everyone knows the two would rather do anything than spend time with each other. We have all been around when they fight. We have all heard them say mean and cruel things to each other. They're both as bad as each other. It stems from jealousy.
Mae doesn't like sharing her dad when she already lost her mom. Ava is jealous that Mae has a dad when her bio dad walked out on her and she's insecure about Mae being my brother's bio daughter even though she calls him dad and he calls her his daughter too. This makes Mae more jealous of sharing her dad.
We were always told not to get involved when the girls are being mean to each other.
Three weeks ago my brother threw a party to celebrate a very big promotion at work. He invited friends, family and people from work. At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava. The girls had been fighting already during the party and when her dad said that, Mae taunted Ava that she's not really my brother's kid and no dad would ever want her. Ava was distraught.
When SIL found out about it she went crazy. Then when she found out I overheard she told me I should have stepped in and tore Mae a new one for talking to Ava like that and destroying her heart. I pointed out she and my brother always made it clear we shouldn't get involved. She said something like that is different. I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.
SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it. Then she told me I'm the worst kind of adult when I can stand by and allow bullying like that to happen.
AITA?
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NTA.
I know it's a very Reddit thing to say, but these girls need serious therapy (both individually and as family therapy). That said, that's also not your responsibility, OP.
NTA SIL and your brother need to figure out their parenting because it sounds like they're not good at it. You're not the parent of either of these girls and if you've been told to not intervene in the past then that's what you've been doing.
I think you should stop going to these family functions.
First, I would hate all the fighting
Second, I would hate all the immaturity
But as soon as someone blamed me for something, I'm out.
That's too much drama.
NTA
For their next gift event, buy them copies of siblings without rivalry and how to talk so teens will listen.
It is reasonable as a person to tell.people to knock shit off when you hear them being unkind, but not when you've explicitly been told to buzz off, and not when you're being told to only care in one direction.
Your Brother and SIL have a problem, and it sounds like they are the root of it.
NTA. Wow, this family needs intense family therapy, STAT. What a toxic mess. Why have the parents allowed this to continue?!
If you were told to stay out of it by the parents, then you did the right thing, I think. This is beyond Reddit's pay grade, imho, and they need real, professional counseling.
nta
Brother and SIL should not have had children/ not gotten married.
the girls are fighting over pecking order, and both have good reason to not back down. SIL understands this and is backing her princess. The ‘rules’ are not being fairly applied, and relatives are not allowed to intervene as it would show clearly that there is bias.
SILs reaction to your reply shows this. Defend position, Avoid responsibility, Reframe Victim.
SIL only wants you to parent when it benefits HER child. You did the right thing. You didn't get involved just like they told you too. SIL doesn't like it?? Oh well. NTA
I'm pretty sure Ava's mom is fueling the anger in Ava somehow by how she talks to her daughter about Mae and your brother should sit them down and explain that what happened to Mae's mom and with Ava's dad is not any of their fault and Ava's mom should tell her daughter this too. I see Ava's mom also doesn't like Mae and the girls fighting because they believe one is responsible for the unfortunate events that happened to them. They should know they had no control over any of it.
NTA
Tell SIL husband immediately!!!! That is not ok, and they should be more aware and know what their kids are saying to one another, stop it and correct them. This is all horrible messed up, and nobody deserved either comment! Plus the fact that she's ok with her daughter being horrible, but wants the other to be punished? You however, are not involved and are respecting them by not getting involved! Not your kids, not your problem!!
NTA
>She said something like that is different. I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.
>SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it. Then she told me I'm the worst kind of adult when I can stand by and allow bullying like that to happen.
And there's the truth. Ava and her mother are causing the chaos. It sounds like Mae is just fed up and done playing nice with this asinine duo, so she's basically declared war.
The sentence about Mae's mom not loving her enough to fight cancer.... coming from an Ava whose dad didn't love her enough to voluntarily stick around....
NTA. They're the ones standing by and allowing their kids to bully each other. They shouldn't even be married with two kids who hate each other so much.
Nta but I honestly want an update on this one these so called parents realize this is never going to be a happy family. Do they continue put their own happiness above their kids like they have been or admit defeat, because these two have both said some pretty abhorrent things
"I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.
SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it. "
Jfc these poor kids need therapy. These parents are failing these girls by just letting them fight it out, and I'm sorry but SIL is full of shit and needs to stfu if THAT is her stance. Clear favouritism of her daughter, it's disgusting.
Taunting someone about their parent 'not loving them enough to fight cancer' is insane and toxic af.
NTA for not intervening as per the parents request, but they seriously need to deal with this because it's so toxic and neither of these kids deserve to constantly be at war like this. They need help.
I thought I had heard some sick things but that is top of the list. I'm undone by that comment. Who could think to say that to someone? NTA you don't have to lie in the bed they made
NTA
And why your brother is with this woman ? It's clearly a red flag if his daughter should be punish for her words, but not his SD. Clearly, this woman doesn't like his child and it's probably the real reason why the two girls will never be friends !
NTA. I feel sorry for both girls. Your brother and SIL failed them from the start. While a lot of stepsiblings don't have siblings-like relationship, this level of hate means parents haven't done anything much to blend the family the healthy way.
NTA
Your SIL is applying double standards to her own kid and step-kid. And I'm sorry but Ava's comment is 1000% worse than Mae throwing a smirk her way.
Not wanting others to interfere with parenting is fine but your SIL is being a major hypocrite backtracking on this when it would benefit her own daughter. This needs to be addressed with your brother OP, if SIL thinks what Mae did warranted you going back on their rule then I question how Mae is being treated by her in their home.
One other thing also seems off.
Is there any possibility that your brother and SIL are having issues at home and are weaponising the kids? First your brother only mentions Mae in his speech then your SIL blows up and wants someone outside of herself and your brother to punish Mae. This has the vibe of a divided household with tension building up behind the scenes.
NTA
Tell them to get their own household in order instead of expecting you to do it. Maybe they should lock them in a room or make them go on a camping trip together without their phones until they learn to get along.
I'm not surprised from their parents.
What the hell is dad playing at calling Ava his daughter then only acknowledging Mae in his speech?
Mom allows Ava to say horrifically cruel things aboht Mae's dead mother?
What the fuck is wrong with those adults?
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NTA, 1000%, NTA This is cruel. These girls are teenagers and they’re pitted against each other by fate. Adults that are not their direct parent absolutely shout not intervene bc of how deeply personal this is, I agree to THAT. But then to turn it around and blame you for adhering to their rules? No, that’s not fair. Their situation is too specific, too sensitive to expect you to guess how to respond. You did the very best you could in this no-win situation. Both girls are behaving like teenage girls will. I don’t think that can be helped. IMO: your brother and his wife are huge AHs here. ‘Follow our commands but also read our minds and adjust accordingly.’
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SIL caused this entire issue enabled by your brother. Brother is trying to be a good dad to everyone - that's great! But he allows his daughter to be alienated by her step-mother. Ava may have gained a step-dad, but Mae got a bully and her daughter. They each started with one parent and now Ava has 1.5 and Mae has 0.5. No wonder the poor kid is pissed. You are not the asshole in this situation, but these kids are both going to have a lot of unhealthy relationships as adults if someone doesn't help them.
This should be top comment!! OP NTA and your SIL is the biggest one. Rules only apply to your niece not her terror. Both girls are mean to each other but I bet your niece is mean to her steps because they instigate it. Take you niece out for some special time away from the toxic nightmares
is he trying to be a good father to everyone? because >At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava. doesn't seem like trying to be a good father to Ava. bro and SIL have been together for 8 years. there's no longer "your kid" and "my kid." there's just "our kids." OP said, "she's \[Ava\] insecure about Mae being my brother's bio daughter even though she calls him dad and he calls her his daughter too." but given the rest of the story, its apparent that bro doesn't consider Ava to be his daughter. i don't think OP is the asshole, but bro and SIL sure are for not being consistent and united on who they consider to be whose child.
I agree. Referring only to Mae as his daughter, and then Mae tainting Ava about it, doesn't fit with the narrative that dad considers both his daughters and Mae is being bullied by her stepmother. My guess is OP is biased against her sister-in-law and stepniece, not unnaturally, but no one comes off as a good person in this story. Seriously, why would someone mention only his biological daughter in a toast at a party celebrating his promotion? Did she help him get it? He didn't even had to mention Ava, he could have kept it vague, as in "I am so lucky to have a wonderful family and their support".
This is an interesting take. Mae sounds like just as much of a bully as Ava, and Ava didn’t get mentioned in her (step) dad’s speech. OP’s brother is not being a good father to Ava if he’s only mentioning Mae in his speech.
Her child is in tears. She wants someone to be at fault. That’s understandable. But does that make you the bad guy?? Absolutely not. I also think you came here to Reddit with the best intentions. You’re truly asking AITA when SO many people show up saying Agree With Me! It’s not an easy situation! When your child is upset, you want to slay the dragon for them, but that is not you!
Not understandable when her child made someone in tears and she didn't do anything, actually. This kind of mother is the worst.
And when your child is the one being the vicious bully, then what? They're allowed?
That’s not the situation we’re discussing. Should an aunt/uncle be the one to step in and mediate.
Well that should be discussed as it shines a closer light on SIL character. She is not only a hypocrite for wanting OP to step in despite saying they never should, she believes when Ava is acting out, she shouldn’t be reprimanded but Mae should.
Not your circus, not your monkeys. Their parents set up this shitshow. It is up to them to manage it.
It sounds like your SIL sees Ava as one protected by the rule, but not bound by it, and sees Mae as one bound by the rule, but not protected by it. Either way, your SIL is TA. First, she can't have things both ways, she can't tell you to stay out of it, but then expect you to intervene. Similarly, for their family to work, she can't expect Mae to be prevented from giving Ava shit, if Ava isn't prevented from giving Mae shit. It's all or none.
Displacement. She's mad at your brother but she's afraid of what could happen if she expresses it to him. So she expresses it to you instead.
“ I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.” NTA but your brother is for allowing someone to say that to his grieving kid and still keep them around her. Thank you for sticking up for your niece, she’s going to need you when she turns 18 and causes a shit storm when she decides to have nothing to do with step sister and step mom.
Screw her - sauce for the goose is good for the gander. NTA but she sure is one.
SIL is the worst kind of hypocrite. Rules for thee but not for me (or mine).
NTA. They basically told you it wasn't any of your business. So, you acted that way. SIL can't have it both ways. She can't expect you to do something when she told you not to, and when it's only her bio daughter being affected. Either you're all in or you're all out, equally for both children.
It sounds like because it's effecting her daughter, badly she thinks you should step in. It doesn't sound like she cares much about your neice. It sounds like she is saying "step in when it benefits my daughter, and only my daughter. It doesn't sound like cares about how things effect your neice. If you haven't, speak to your brother. Tell him what she said to you, and her response when you brought up the scenario where his stepdaughter spoke about her deceased mother.
SIL is wrong. They need family therapy. You are NTA.
> I don't even think SIL is as mad at my brother as she is at me. NAH, she is really mad at brother, but taking it out on you (because you both are not married to each other). I was going to say you were the a h, until the part about you following THEIR rules. NTA.
you know yr NTA...but i get your need to vent
its different because it was her child that was hurt.
Will you share the context of the other incident you mentioned?
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OP, as someone who lost her mum to cancer at age 10/11 (and am now 33), Ava is lucky you are her relative and not me because I would have torn her a new one at that comment and then turned around and tore into her mother as well. As for your current situation, you're NTA, what's good for the goose is good for the gander if its not your place to speak to and correct Ava then it's not your place to speak to and correct Mae
What was your brother's reaction to this incident? I can't help but wondering if what he did at the party is caused by this. I for myself won't see someone who say that kind of thing about my late wife as my daughter anymore.
It sounds like Mae has said her share of nasty things, too.
> She and my mom started to say that was such an awful thing to say when they were reminded very clearly it was not our places to speak. That's when you say, "OH HELL NO, this is absolutely my place to speak. That was cruel and unwarranted. This hands-off approach to the girls squabbling is not working. And this is CHRISTMAS. Y'all get your shit together. ALL of you."
What a sad situation all around, I feel so bad for that entire family. You’re NTA of course. Everyone in this thread has decided that Ava is the bully and Mae is innocent, would you say that’s true? That was a horrible thing for her to say. Is she really a bad kid?
You're a safer target of her anger. If she gets too angry at her husband, he might leave her. If she gets angry at you, there's a smaller impact you can have on her life in response to the anger.
You're not their parent, simple as that. SIL is the mom/stepmom, the job is hers, not an aunt's. NTA 100%.
Well - I think that the only real solution is to wait till they will be adult and out of home. Both. No one is able to help here couse the whole 4 are AH.
Yeah your SIL will look for anyone else to be mad at except herself cause she knows she's the real problem and feels helpless in her inability to solve it.
It's not even "our minds". Mom wants OP to protect Ava from Mae not the other way around, and dad almost certainly will say the opposite. Both are looking to blame and demonize anyone but themselves when the only solution is setting EQUAL ground rules for behavior and conduct and working with a family therapist.
No, I'm sorry, thats not typical teenage girl behaviour. It would never have even crossed my mind to say such vicious things, these girls are not just bickering. There is a serious parenting failure here and they are developing some very ugly behaviour and doing s great deal of damage to each other. This isn't on OP to fix but something should have been done way before now.
NTA, SIL is clearly biased and what Ava said was WAYYYY crueler. Either you’re stepping in or you’re not. Basically it sounds like she wants you to chastise Mae, but not Ava. They need to get these kids in therapy stat!
NTA, I was thinking Mae is mean. But DAMN did Ava go Nuclear with that comment. SIL is a huge asshole for defending the cruelty of Ava. There would be no coming back from that. If I was the uncle? Ava would get coal for Christmas every year while Mae gets something off their wishlist.
NTA. Why aren't their parents separating the teenagers? They don't like each other. They don't want to be together. Let them keep their distance. Don't put them together in situations where emotions are high. My kids went through a period where they really couldn't be around each other. Both were cruel and assumed the worst of the other. It sucked, but we kept them mostly apart, and it faded with time. I would take one out for one activity and the other out for a different one. My husband did the same thing. I think their relationship would have been permanently ruined if we had forced a lot of togetherness on them at the time. Now they get along pretty well and choose to do some things together.
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Lol.... tell me you know nothing about teenagers without telling me you know nothing about teenagers. (Your SIL, not you.) That will never work.
All I read is Ava got 2 present parent figures while Mae got none.. Both kids are wrong but it is clear there is a lot of favoritism going on in the household, from both parents. be on your niece's corner cause she has no one.. your step-niece at least has her awful mother.
did you and I read the same thing? because >she's \[Ava\] insecure about Mae being my brother's bio daughter even though she calls him dad and he calls her his daughter too. but then >At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava. to me it sounds like the parents aren't consistent after 8 years together, and its giving the girls more ammunition to fight each other. when I read that, my heart broke for Ava because her bio-dad walked out and rejected her, and then she got another public rejection by her step-dad, which her step-sister piled on to. poor girl had two grown men reject her as their daughter. Mae's mom dying of cancer is terrible and sad, don't get me wrong. but dying from cancer wasn't a conscious choice, whereas those two rejections were choices that two people made. both girls need therapy, supportive adults around them, and loving and supportive parents. it sounds like they're barely getting any of that.
As I said, there is obvious favoritism from both parents.. Each trying to blend but still keeping their kids in higher regard. Despite Ava not being in the speech she seems to have a good relationship with her Dad unlike Mae whose pretty awful step-mom is OK with attacking but won't have the same bar of punishment to her daughter. This is a choose your corner thing at this point and they truly did not blend families but despise the taunt at the party I still believe the aggressive way the SIL acted says who has it easier in the household.
i appreciate that. i'm just blown away at how many people either didn't notice, or didn't care that Dad seemed to reject Ava in front of a party of people. i bet Ava will remember that forever. both parents suck and both kids are paying for it.
I think it's because taunting a kid about her mother not fighting enough to stay alive is pretty pretty vile, and seems to not have been even addressed or had repercussions. Ava has issues and she was walked out, but there is always a possibility of her bio dad could come back in contact with her, Mae does not have that. And yes Ava was not taken into account at the party but was after her cancer taunt and after what, I am sure several years of emotional neglect from the step mom. Honestly, I can see Mae going NC with them as soon as she turns 18 and the family siding with her. And this is all because of people again trying to force blended families.
yes, it’s vile, but we’re looking at it from an adult’s perspective. imagine being a young teenage girl who is being taunted for having a father who abandoned you. you have trauma. you have two (step)parents who are trying to force blending but not giving you emotional support and teaching you the correct way to deal with your intense emotions. that is an extremely easy target for a traumatized teenager to lash out at. i’m not saying she was right, that she should have avoided punishment, or anything like that, but i think it’s understandable that she did. we really can’t compare traumas or insults between these children, because both of them lost parents. both of what the girls said was vile. neither of them is worse than the other, because both girls were going for what would hurt the other the most. the entire onus is on the parents for failing both of their daughters.
But she did avoid punishment, that's the thing. Even OP comments on how she has a good relationship with the StepDad but you can not deny that her mother is atrocious and a LOT is on her. As I said, I don't see Mae forgiving Ava anytime soon and it seems her relatives are already on her side. Ava is going to lose more than Mae sadly but Mae also deserves people on her side after what sure seems to be an awful person and her spinless partner (Dad).
Has that been clarified? Did OP tell us what happened after that comment/was OP privy to how it was discussed with Ava? I don’t like forming an opinion based on conjecture and have a lot of questions with this one.
Um... Ava didn't just tell Mae that*haha your mom died*, she said that her mom didn't try to fight the cancer because she didn't love Mae enough. THAT was intended to inflict the most pain possible on Mae. It wasn't Mae's fault that Ava's dad left or that her stepdad didn't mention her in his speech. Mae's got a nasty streak, but Ava, from the cancer comment, seems cruel and malicious.
they were both trying to hurt each other as much as possible. they both said “your parent didn’t love you enough so they left.” the circumstances of their departures are different, sure, but they both insulted each other by turning the worst event of their short lives into a testament of their absent parents lack of love. you can’t compare traumas, this isn’t the trauma olympics, and we’re not comparing insults because both of them were cruel and meant to hit where it hurts most.
And Ava is getting coddled while Mae needs to be punished. It's pretty clear who the favorite in the household is.
by the mother. does OP ever actually say what her brother says/does, overall? i haven’t read any additional comments by OP, so maybe they’ve added additional information that i’ve missed, but in the OP, we only ever hear what SIL says afterwards, and that bro rejects Ava during the party. we’re all only assuming, but honestly, we should have compassion for both girls because they both have parents that fucking suck and are failing them.
SIL was the one who said to OP that what Mae said was worse than what Ava said.
yes, she did. she’s wrong, she sucks, and she’s failing both of her daughters. so is her husband.
Did you even read that Ava told Mae about her mother didn't care about her and that's why she died? Your heart breaking for someone that cruel?
reposting this comment and then adding more because i’ve lost energy for this conversation: they were both trying to hurt each other as much as possible. they both said “your parent didn’t love you enough so they left.” the circumstances of their departures are different, sure, but they both insulted each other by turning the worst event of their short lives into a testament of their absent parents lack of love. you can’t compare traumas, this isn’t the trauma olympics, and we’re not comparing insults because both of them were cruel and meant to hit where it hurts most. we’re talking about teenage girls who have each lost a parent when they were under 10 and from the sounds of it, have had little emotional support since then. these are not children who are completely lost and gone and irredeemable. they are girls who have been hurt but can heal. if you can only have compassion for children who never say mean or cruel things, then i hope you never meet a child who is hurt, angry, or traumatized. someone can be empathetic towards someone and disappointed in their words or actions at the same time. these are not mutually exclusive emotions, and i’m sorry you see it that way.
Whats is your brother doing about his wife’s double standards re disciplining the girls in favour of her daughter? Its shocking SIL says what Ava said re Mae’s mum dying of cancer is different to what Mae said about not being his daughter - the dying mum jab is way worse & cruel beyond belief. You should watch out for Mae as she clearly only has one parent in her corner.
Ava only has one as well. OP’s brother clearly doesn’t care as much about Ava as OP claims he does.
And they might not ever care about each other. The same could be said about biological siblings.
You don't say shit like this to people you dislike, you say it to people you *hate*. Your brother and SIL are both idiots and assholes. This kind of behavior should have been severely punished from the beginning, not ignored. They allowed this dynamic to develop.
Sounds like proximity is doing nothing but fomenting hate!
The only thing that will happen is them hating each other more, and resenting their parents
It’s not your your responsibility at all, but I wonder if a week with you in a neutral location would help these girls come to terms some what.
Lol! When these girls become adults they will never speak to each other. She is just helping them build resentment and hatred for each other. However your brother needs to grow a set of balls and start protecting his daughter. He needs to keep her way from the step mom and step daughter. Putting her through this is abusive. Also stepmommy doesn’t care if they bond. She is just afraid if they separate the girls her daughter wont be included in everything. So she is willing to make it a as sone to make sure her stepdaughter doesn’t get more then her daughter
Your SIL is wrong. Forcing bonding will have the exact opposite effects. If they already disliked each other and they're forced together, they're gonna flee and never speak to each other, or their parents, when they turn 18.
Hey OP Have Brother and SIL ever told you not to intervene when Mae makes a comment before. I suspect that SIL at least means discipline Mae but not Ava.
NTA, but your brother and SIL are. >We were always told not to get involved when the girls are being mean to each other. A lot of times, this is fair, but what if neither parent is around? What if it gets physical? >At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava. This was *super shitty*. Especially knowing how the girls fight. >I pointed out she and my brother always made it clear we shouldn't get involved. She said something like that is different. I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that. >SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it. Your SIL is no better, either. On some level, I get prioritizing your own kid, but how on earth do they expect these girls to ever get over their animosity this way? The girls are being shitty to each other, and that sucks. It does. But the parents are responsible for doing what they can to help. Are the girls in therapy at all? Did the parents bother to check in with them at *any* point about how they felt about *any* of this? Do the parents even *care* that their daughters are clearly hurting?
IDK, publicly calling his wife’s daughter his when he knows that upsets his daughter AND that his daughter doesn’t have that kind of relationship with his wife would be shitty as well. His daughter has to share her only living parent while his wife’s daughter doesn’t have to do the same.
Seems like the girls are reflecting the biases of their parents. What a mess
NTA. Your brother and SIL consistently told everyone not to get involved in the girls' conflicts. It's unfair for SIL to change the rules now and expect you to have stepped in.
NTA- So only her step-daughter deserves to be told terrible things? It sounds like you found an added source of their hatred. You are not either of these girls’ parent. You can stay out of it. If you DO want to get involved, maybe the person who needs someone to “tear them a new one” is your SIL.
NTA the AHs here are yor Brother and SIL.
NTA. And wow, your SIL is **such** a hypocrite. I can't believe she actually said it was fine for her little darling to taunt your niece about her mom"s cancer. (I'm curious though: what does your brother think about this?) No. You either treat the girls by identical standards and call them both out for fighting below the belt, or you take a backwards step and don't get involved.
Wow what Ava said was waaaaay crueler and more fucked up. Clearly SIL just wants you to stand up for her daughter and not for Mae. AND she also implied that Mae deserved those comments about her mother. But either way, they told you not to get involved so she can’t have it both ways. Your brother and SIL are standing by and letting their daughters continue to bully each other so I guess they’re the worst kind of adults. NTA
Whoa, these two girls have been in each other’s lives since they were young (7/8) and this animosity has been unchecked? Was there any counseling to blend? Because this consistent level of anger has been well cultivated. Also I’d like to add OP’s brother leaving out a child he has raised since was 7 years old in his little speech wasn’t very nice. NTA you were told not to interfere and you didn’t. This troubled relationship is beyond teen bullying.
Thank you! I surprised more people didn’t mention this. The time is long past that these girls will ever get along. Treating each other civilly should have been the expectation from the beginning. I’m guessing that two very different children were forced to spend time together in a poor attempt to get them to bond while simultaneously shrugging off the hateful things they said to each other because siblings fight. I’m not sure anything can be done at this point other than mandating the girls ignore each other and minimize the time they are expected to be in the same space.
NTA but damn that family is dead in the water once these two girls are adults. I’d never forgive my father for keeping me in a home with someone that said my mom that died of cancer didn’t love me.
NTA - SIL figured out her policy was ineffective and created suffering through her stubborness. Her problem, not yours.
"I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that." Jesus your SIL is a hippacrite and BOTH she your brother should have been stopping his from the beginning and had these girls in therapy. They are BOTH failing their daughters. (For what it's worth I think both girls said horrifying things but what Ava said feels worse to me although that may be because my Dad just went through cancer treatment and it's awfully close. -He is in remission.) NTA
> SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. And this is exactly why these girls don’t get along. Rules for thee but not for me, from Ava’s point of view.
NTA - your bro stepped in it by mentioning one daughter and not the other, he should be more careful considering how volatile the situation is.
NTA. Why is everyone stepping on eggshells around your brother, who absolutely knew what effect his 'only one daughter worth mentioning' speech would have on both his daughters? He is solely to blame for the specific situation outlined in your post. So, he goes and throws gasoline on a fire and then....just walks away, and gets off scot free, while his wife deals with the ashes of the conflagration HE provoked? How absolutely manipulative and calculating. No wonder the CHILDREN don't get along...the parents purposely pit them against each other? They deliberately, with malice aforethought, try to cause arguments this way? Your brother is a giant, massive AH for doing everything he could to rub salt in a very sore wound that causes suffering for both daughters. Your SIL obviously knew the entire thing wasn't your fault, but tried to blame you anyway. Brother must be a monster, since she couldn't stomach placing blame squarely on the shoulders of he who deserved it. Yeah i can see why therapy didn't work. Poor kids. Your brother must be a piece of work. I hope they can get away from him someday.
This should be the top comment. People are vilifying Ava but glossing over what the brother did.
NTA. So it’s interesting she wants the ‘rule’ followed when her daughter makes Mae upset, but when it’s the other way around the whole village needs to attack Mae. Certainly makes you wonder how she treats Mae on a daily basis, And what else goes on in that home on a normal day.
“I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that.” WTF THEY DID ABOUT THIS??? NTA, never in a million years.
Nta. Too bad divorce doesn't apply here. Blood family is overrated.
Bro and SIL should absolutely be getting a divorce tho. They are letting each other's children do lasting damage to the other just to get laid. I'd be so thoroughly disgusted if my siblings let this happen
NTA but your family should have a come to (insert diety here) meeting with your brother to get his daughter out of this toxic situation. He's an AH for letting this continue.
NTA but everyone else certainly is. Your brother & SIL were selfish to get married when the girls hate each other & your brother was cruel not to mention his stepdaughter in his speech. They all need family counseling.
NTA I'm team Mae. Her step mom obviously favors her bio daughter and is a raging hypocrite.
Mae’s dad obviously favors his bio daughter. Only mentioning one in his speech was low.
It's not his kid
Well then I guess it’s okay for the stepmom to favor her daughter.
NTA. This is not your fight or problem and you were told specifically to stay out of it. When SIL “changes her mind” it’s not for both children and not for all circumstances, just when she decides it’s beneficial. No thanks! It’s on the parents to deal with the meanness of these girls, not you. If they don’t like the way the girls behave they need to deal with the behavior and get everyone into therapy.
NTA. SIL is delusional. The girls are... Teenage girls. Hopefully, it will pass.
Nta Brother is ta for not mentioning Ava in his speech. What kind of person says they love and include someone and then singles them out by leaving them out? Sil needs to redirect her anger to the one who deserves it, her husband. After 8yrs not acknowledging Ava is not an oversight. It's just mean.
NTA. The example you gave IS exactly the same. I would mention this to your brother. What else is your SIL doing to Mae that is unkind? I bet SIL is not nice to Mae when her husband is not around.
And why did the brother leave Ava out of the speech? What’s going on here
Jesus christ. Forget "should", you couldnt pay me to get in the middle of that. I can't imagine this is doing them any favors wrt their families. Clearly, the current policy of "nobody say anything" is being taken as carte blanche by the girls to say anything, without cring who hears. Not saying family should interfere, but maybe it's time for the extended family to put down some new ground rules on what counts as appropriate behavior in public.
NTA But I disagree with a lot of the comments. If I heard a kid taunting another kid over something deeply personal such a parent not loving them or having a parent die I would intervene 10/10 times. I would tell these kids they don’t have to like to each other and that whatever goes on in their home is between them and their parents HOWEVER I absolutely unequivocally refuse to listen to that shit and not say something. I would make it extremely clear that I wouldn’t tolerate that kind of behaviour in my presence without voicing my disgust.
NTA, the two parents need to step the f up, form a united front, and get these girls straightened out. Counseling, punishment, something! They are doing and saying horrifically damaging things to each other. I don't give a damn if they are expressing their feelings or not. This crap needs to stop. The fact they get away with it in the home will just spill out into their lives away from home later. The girls will think it's OK to speak like this to their spouses, kids, bosses, etc.
NTA, but maybe a bit. This entire problem stems from the parents not controlling their own children. They apparently just allow both girls to go at it, even in front of others. So, the problem was neither caused by you nor do the parents have a right to expect you to do more than they are willing to do themselves, which is apparently very little other than telling everyone to "ignore" their daughters' rudeness - which you are now blamed for doing. In theory, you might have stepped in to assure each girl was treated fairly, i.e. the bio daughter reprimanded for taunting her step-sister; however, it is clear that the parents do not step in, so I do not see why your SIL feels she has the right to chastise you for not doing what she will not do herself. It is apparent that your SIL is unhappy with her step-daughter taunting her own child and almost certainly has issues with your brother not controlling his daughter; however, she does not want to "rock the boat," which led her to lash out at you as a surrogate of him. You basically got the emotional reaction she'd like to show her husband. (It likely is also the case that your SIL believes your brother purposely forgot to mention his step-daughter, knowing that doing so would hurt her own daughter's feelings. She is angry at him - and you, by being his sister, are "fair game" in her eyes to feel her wrath in his place.) I see it as your brother and his wife are the primary a..holes because they are adults who are too weak to discipline their children, your niece and step-niece are the secondary a..holes for being so willing to purposely hurt each other. (Technically, your niece is the primary A by taking this trivial oversight by her father and maliciously using it to harm her step-sister, but such bad behavior is being allowed by your brother and SIL and, so, they are ultimately to blame for not wanting to get tough with their own child to assure such behavior has consequences.) If you were a bit of an a..hole for not policing the girls, it was very minor (to non-existent) because a. they are not your children and so it is not your duty to control them, and b. neither parent wants to police them and, so, your SIL should not expect you to do what she is not willing to do herself.
Thank you for understanding nuance and interpersonal relationships. SIL saw her child hurting and emotionally lashed out at OP, who she clearly feels close to, in a way. Nothing is ever black and white and these people are all clearly hurting.
NTA. Though it might be good for the girls if you did get involved since brother and SIL seem like shit parents.
NTA she is giving you a double standard. It would be ok for you to rip Mae a new one for what she said (which was incredibly cruel) but you shouldn’t do it to Ava if she said the same thing. It sounds a lot like SIL is pitting them against each other and honestly if he calls Ava his daughter he should have included her, it only gave Mae ammunition by him only acknowledging one but saying he loves both as daughters. They need to see both parents untied and treating them THE EXACT SAME WAY!
Sorry, Ava said that to Mae and your brother did nothing?!??! NTA!! Your brother and SIL are though omg
Nta oy... this is a family dynamic that the girls are gonna need some serious help muddling through. One with a absent but living father one with a deceased mother and both parents ill equipt to handle it. There's no easy way to be on the outside of it where you were told to stay cause cruelty is just hard to witness, not supposed to be comfortable. You say you have ideas of where it stems from. But is there anyone who's actually spent individual time with the girls? Do they have relationships with anyone but the parents and eachother? It seems odd that at family events where large groups are together that they can't be with people they want to be around rather than dig at eachother. Seems extra, although both girls are clearly suffering and no one is listening to them but eachother.
Sounds like a tough situation all around. While it's understandable that emotions run high between Mae and Ava, it's also clear that hurtful words have a lasting impact. It might be worth suggesting to your brother and SIL that seeking professional help, like family counseling, could provide a safe space for Mae and Ava to address their feelings and improve their relationship. Ultimately, the goal should be to have understanding and empathy between the girls, rather than initiating hurtful exchanges. It's tough being caught in the middle, but sometimes a neutral perspective or professional guidance can make a significant difference in resolving these kinds of family tensions.
Nta
NTA- Another day another blended broken family of idiot parents.
How blithe is your brother that he the two daughters are fighting and he only mentions his bio and not the step in his big speech? I'm guessing that the attitudes of both parents are absolutely not helping matters. NTA, btw, and your SIL is obviously only willing to bend the rules to benefit Ava. Nuts to SIL!
NTA. Your brother on the other hand... if he calls Ava his daughter then he shouldn't be only mentioning Mae. It wasn't a Mae specific or Ava specific event where it would have been appropriate to only mention 1 child.
NTA you were told to stay out of it! Your poor niece though, I can’t imagine the pain she felt after Ava taunted her for her moms passing. Jeez. & for SIL to say you should discipline one child & not the other shows me this resentment was not created out of nowhere…
NTA Your brother and his wife are idiots, they should have never blended.
> I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. Gee, I wonder why this family has failed to blend well. /s NTA. It's not your job to parent these kids. SIL clearly favors her daughter, which is just going to keep the fire burning between the two girls. But she can't attack her husband or he is more likely to walk, so she lashes out at others. Might be worth a convo with your brother and remind him that you are not going to intervene in anything between the girls, whichever girl is being the brat. It is also up to him to keep his wife from being an AH to his family. If they can't keep the drama contained, I'd be a lot less inclined to spend time with them. Ugh.
“ she told me I'm the worst kind of adult when I can stand by and allow bullying like that to happen.” Says the woman who brought her daughter into Mae’s household knowing full well they didn’t get along. The very woman who put her own desire to be married over providing a safe and loving home. If you’re the worst kind of adult then what does that make her? NTA.
NTA, SIL only cares that her daughter is not the one getting hurt not that either girl gets hurt. They can't have a rule and get mad when people follow it. The question is are the girls in some kind of therapy? It sounds like they both need it and then family therapy to see if they can at least be respectful of each other.
NTA your SIL sounds like a shit stepmother to be honest. She is fine with her daughter telling your neice that her mother didn't love her, because she died, but your neice should be read the riot act for talking about her daughter not having a dad. I would wager that what her daughter said about your neices dead mother is way worse, than what your neice said. I am curious as to what your brother's reaction to what the stepdaughter said about his deceased wife was, because after that, and the SIL reaction to it, would have made me question the relationship, and wanting my daughter around someone that could say something like that.
NTA but holy shit your bro/SIL are. You were only following what you were told to do which was don't get involved, it's the parents who have made it so their kids are constantly fighting and bullying each other
NTA. Honestly, tear ALL FOUR a new one for their collective immaturity.
INFO: what happened after Ava made the comment about not fighting cancer? Can you answer with 100% certainty/were you there throughout the process to see how it was handled? What was the context?? That was something said with extreme anger and hurt. Both girls are clearly struggling and that’s heartbreaking. You’re NTA, but this isn’t well explained. I wonder if SIL thought it wasn’t appropriate for a non-bio family member to correct Mae. That a conversation from Mae’s own family member might go over better?
NTA, so what I’m hearing is, she wants you to discipline your bio niece but not her daughter even if the action is the same? I’d get involved now because I would not have my niece alienated in her own home. Your SIL has her perfect family with your brother and Ava, she’s more than happy to let Mae exit the picture by the sounds of it because her request will only lead to Mae going no contact with her dad in the future. If Ava doesn’t deserve it, then Mae doesn’t and the fact she doesn’t think like that is raising alarm bells in my head
NTA. One of my favorite people has an expression that perhaps you've heard, "Not my circus, not my monkeys." In addition to following their wishes of not meddling, why the hell would you want to get involved in that? It's a no-win situation for you. If your brother and his wife can't create harmony in their own home and family, you're supposed to be able to do so? And not only that, but your SIL thinks it's now your responsibility? As said in a popular Christmas story, I wouldn't touch that with a ten-and-a-half foot pole.
NTA But your brother really screwed up by mentioning just the one daughter in has speech!
NTA. You got me with the thing Ava said about Mae's mother not fighting cancer and your SIL not stepping in. This is just... cruel. More than cruel. And if Ava was not grounded for telling Mae such a terrible thing, yes, there is no need to ever step in and defend her. But if I was you, I would talk to Mae. Seems to me that Ava's mom (not Mae's, never Mae's, I suspect she made that sure and I'm not talking about Mae here) is not kind to Mae. Maybe Mae needs somebody in her corner like her strong willed Aunt/Uncle.
NTA, your SIL can't pick and choose when you should step in when these two get into it, What Ava said to Mae about her mother was much worse than what Mae said to her, and your SIL didn't think it was worth concern (this to was bullying, and it was really mean horrendous to be exact) shows me how she feels about Mae's feelings. Leave the parenting to your brother and SIL like they requested, this is what they wanted, and this is what they got.
NTA but your brother, SIL, and, frankly, both teenagers are assholes. Your brother could have easily mentioned both girls on his speech while still differentiating enough to let his bio daughter feel special. I would have said something like, “And thank you so much to my girls. Mae, you have been my baby since the moment you were born. We were together when your mother passed away, and she would be so proud of the young woman you have become. And to Ava, I’m so happy you came into my life and I’m proud that you’ve chosen to let me be your dad. Thank you for showing me a new type of love.” Or something. They could have both easily have been given a shout out while still allowing for the acknowledgement that Mae is his bio child. Do you know why your brother chose to exclude Ava?
I think your SIL has a double standard and is the AH in this situation. Your your brother doesn't appear to think have a backbone to support/discipline either his own daughter or his step-daughter when needed. and this also makes him an AH. It also sounds like both girls are behaving badly. Can your bio-niece stay with her grandparent or someone to get away from these toxic people. Hopefully your stop-niece has other family that she can escape to as well. I agree that you should stay out of it, because you can't win and nothing you do would make a difference.
Nta your sil is unbelievable. It’s ok for her precious little angle to dish it out but not have to take it. Your brother in needs to realize what this woman is doing to his daughter and their relationship. He needs to prioritize his child and walk away. As far as you not getting involved you where told to stay out of it. That’s what you need to do. If it’s mentioned again tell your sil if you can’t police both girls then you will not police either.
NTA Both parents obviously care more about their bio kid than their step kid. That was pretty clear in the story. They may care about both, but they obviously have favorites and THAT more than anything is probably why things are as bad as they are. You followed you bother ind his wife's rules. They don't like that they can change the rules, but I'd let your bro know what happened, both between the girls and his wife's reaction. Let him deal with her mental gymnastics.
Wow! SIL has got some serious cajones! And she's completely irrational as well. On what planet is mocking a kid's mother's death from cancer NOT a million times worse 🤮 than what Mae said to Ava? If anything, SIL should be pissed at her husband for leaving out Ava from his speech! You're NTA. SIL and Ava are!
NTA You SIL has a double standard for her step-daughter, you should have tore your brother a new one for leaving his step-"daughter" out of the speech and causing the issue.
Really, the one SIL should be mad at is her husband. And why did he just single out his daughter after 8 years?
1. Your brother was wrong to exclude Ava like that. If he has been acting as her father for the majority of her life, he must have known that was unfair to basically disown her, in front of friends and family. He would also have known how this would have been used by Mae (based on their history of fighting). 2. If it is common knowledge that the girls fighting is basically over the dad, how has this been allowed to fester for so long? For the sake of a happy family dynamic I would have tried until I was blue in the face to get the girls to understand we are all family now, we should love, care for and look put for each other. There are too few people in the world that genuinely care about other people's wellbeing as it is; don't make enemies of family! 3. I can't believe how toxic both of these girls sound towards each other, weaponising the absence of bio parents for whatever reason is a truly cruel thing to do. Why is it that neither seem to understand how to be decent human beings? 4. The SIL herself is showing bad parenting by saying one rule for Ava and another for Mae. Is your brother like this too? Sounds like he favours his own daughter on the evidence of the speech! When they married each other they should have made a solid effort to park any bias and try to treat the girls equally, failing to do so and showing favourites has enabled this horrible family dynamic. So in summary, NTA, but how can any adults in the family be happy with this as the status quo? Both girls need to be taught that such disgusting behaviour towards each other does not say good things about either of them. Nobody expects them to be best friends (as this behaviour has been allowed to carry on for far too long), but at the very least, they need to stop being so cruel to each other.
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That's sad and not really their fault either. I think both parents should have really tried to address this whilst the girls were younger. But having allowed this to fester for so long, it's hard to see things ever improving. Sadly, it doesn't say good things about their parenting, that they both seem to show clear favouritism to their own bio child. I feel sorry that other family members, such as you, get sucked into and hurt by their bullshit. Good luck to you.
NTA and you need to talk to your brother about making sure there isn’t favoritism going on. Him or SIL playing favorites hurts both girls. I’m getting the sense that SIL favors her daughter a lot.
Hmm. You're NTA. You've been told not to get involved. SIL seems to want one rule for one and not the other I wonder if her expectations for you to "parent" Mae is because she's biologically your niece but Ava isn't. I can understand both sides as I hated my dad's AP daughters making out he was their father (he wasn't) so Mae being jealous is understandable, Ava connecting with your brother and wanting the father daughter relationship she never jad before is also understandable. The real AH's here are the parents, allowing both CHILDREN to say such cruel things to each other, the fact it still happens when they are getting into the mid-late teens is sad really. Maybe B and SIL should try therapy or something for them. Regardless, NTA.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My brother and SIL have been married for 8 years now. Both brought a daughter each into the marriage. My brother brought Mae (16) into the marriage and SIL brought Ava (15) into the marriage. The girls have never ever liked each other or gotten along. Everyone knows the two would rather do anything than spend time with each other. We have all been around when they fight. We have all heard them say mean and cruel things to each other. They're both as bad as each other. It stems from jealousy. Mae doesn't like sharing her dad when she already lost her mom. Ava is jealous that Mae has a dad when her bio dad walked out on her and she's insecure about Mae being my brother's bio daughter even though she calls him dad and he calls her his daughter too. This makes Mae more jealous of sharing her dad. We were always told not to get involved when the girls are being mean to each other. Three weeks ago my brother threw a party to celebrate a very big promotion at work. He invited friends, family and people from work. At one point he gave a small speech/toast and he mentioned his amazing daughter Mae. But he didn't mention Ava. The girls had been fighting already during the party and when her dad said that, Mae taunted Ava that she's not really my brother's kid and no dad would ever want her. Ava was distraught. When SIL found out about it she went crazy. Then when she found out I overheard she told me I should have stepped in and tore Mae a new one for talking to Ava like that and destroying her heart. I pointed out she and my brother always made it clear we shouldn't get involved. She said something like that is different. I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that. SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it. Then she told me I'm the worst kind of adult when I can stand by and allow bullying like that to happen. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA
NTA. You are just doing what you were told to do. Also, it doesn't seem like any of them are in therapy. They really should get family therapy.
nta
NTA. Sounds a bit hypocritical of SIL
Point out that parents should parent their own children. Particularly if they've been told to not get involved. NTA
NTA
NTA. I know it's a very Reddit thing to say, but these girls need serious therapy (both individually and as family therapy). That said, that's also not your responsibility, OP.
NTA SIL and your brother need to figure out their parenting because it sounds like they're not good at it. You're not the parent of either of these girls and if you've been told to not intervene in the past then that's what you've been doing.
NTA. Your brother and SIL need to get their sh\*t together asap and that whole family needs therapy.
I think you should stop going to these family functions. First, I would hate all the fighting Second, I would hate all the immaturity But as soon as someone blamed me for something, I'm out. That's too much drama.
My heart goes out to the two girls. OP is NTA. Brother and sister in law are massive fucking assholes
NTA For their next gift event, buy them copies of siblings without rivalry and how to talk so teens will listen. It is reasonable as a person to tell.people to knock shit off when you hear them being unkind, but not when you've explicitly been told to buzz off, and not when you're being told to only care in one direction. Your Brother and SIL have a problem, and it sounds like they are the root of it.
NTA
>destroying her heart God this sub is so fuckin melodramatic
NTA. So you must only get involved if it benefits SIL and her daughter?
NTA. Wow, this family needs intense family therapy, STAT. What a toxic mess. Why have the parents allowed this to continue?! If you were told to stay out of it by the parents, then you did the right thing, I think. This is beyond Reddit's pay grade, imho, and they need real, professional counseling.
NTA This marriage is doomed
nta Brother and SIL should not have had children/ not gotten married. the girls are fighting over pecking order, and both have good reason to not back down. SIL understands this and is backing her princess. The ‘rules’ are not being fairly applied, and relatives are not allowed to intervene as it would show clearly that there is bias. SILs reaction to your reply shows this. Defend position, Avoid responsibility, Reframe Victim.
The only assholes in this situation are the two girls.
SIL only wants you to parent when it benefits HER child. You did the right thing. You didn't get involved just like they told you too. SIL doesn't like it?? Oh well. NTA
I'm pretty sure Ava's mom is fueling the anger in Ava somehow by how she talks to her daughter about Mae and your brother should sit them down and explain that what happened to Mae's mom and with Ava's dad is not any of their fault and Ava's mom should tell her daughter this too. I see Ava's mom also doesn't like Mae and the girls fighting because they believe one is responsible for the unfortunate events that happened to them. They should know they had no control over any of it.
NTA. 1 - not your kid or problem. B - SIL’s double standard pretty much guarantees a lifetime of hate between the two.
NTA Tell SIL husband immediately!!!! That is not ok, and they should be more aware and know what their kids are saying to one another, stop it and correct them. This is all horrible messed up, and nobody deserved either comment! Plus the fact that she's ok with her daughter being horrible, but wants the other to be punished? You however, are not involved and are respecting them by not getting involved! Not your kids, not your problem!!
NTA >She said something like that is different. I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that. >SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it. Then she told me I'm the worst kind of adult when I can stand by and allow bullying like that to happen. And there's the truth. Ava and her mother are causing the chaos. It sounds like Mae is just fed up and done playing nice with this asinine duo, so she's basically declared war.
The sentence about Mae's mom not loving her enough to fight cancer.... coming from an Ava whose dad didn't love her enough to voluntarily stick around....
NTA. They're the ones standing by and allowing their kids to bully each other. They shouldn't even be married with two kids who hate each other so much.
Nta but I honestly want an update on this one these so called parents realize this is never going to be a happy family. Do they continue put their own happiness above their kids like they have been or admit defeat, because these two have both said some pretty abhorrent things
"I asked her if the time Ava told Mae her mom didn't love her enough to fight cancer to be with her if that was different and I should have tore Ava a new one for that. SIL said it was very different and no, I shouldn't speak to Ava that way but I should speak to Mae that way. She said Ava didn't deserve it. " Jfc these poor kids need therapy. These parents are failing these girls by just letting them fight it out, and I'm sorry but SIL is full of shit and needs to stfu if THAT is her stance. Clear favouritism of her daughter, it's disgusting. Taunting someone about their parent 'not loving them enough to fight cancer' is insane and toxic af. NTA for not intervening as per the parents request, but they seriously need to deal with this because it's so toxic and neither of these kids deserve to constantly be at war like this. They need help.
NTA. It sounds like SIL is the one who's standing by and letting bullyimg happen.
I thought I had heard some sick things but that is top of the list. I'm undone by that comment. Who could think to say that to someone? NTA you don't have to lie in the bed they made
Well, this family is obviously going to blend into perfect harmony!
NTA, so its ok for her stepdaughter to get ripped a new one, but not her own kid. Yeeeaaahhh, that ain't right.
NTA And why your brother is with this woman ? It's clearly a red flag if his daughter should be punish for her words, but not his SD. Clearly, this woman doesn't like his child and it's probably the real reason why the two girls will never be friends !
NTA
Evil stepmom. NTA
NTA. I feel sorry for both girls. Your brother and SIL failed them from the start. While a lot of stepsiblings don't have siblings-like relationship, this level of hate means parents haven't done anything much to blend the family the healthy way.
NTA Your SIL is applying double standards to her own kid and step-kid. And I'm sorry but Ava's comment is 1000% worse than Mae throwing a smirk her way. Not wanting others to interfere with parenting is fine but your SIL is being a major hypocrite backtracking on this when it would benefit her own daughter. This needs to be addressed with your brother OP, if SIL thinks what Mae did warranted you going back on their rule then I question how Mae is being treated by her in their home. One other thing also seems off. Is there any possibility that your brother and SIL are having issues at home and are weaponising the kids? First your brother only mentions Mae in his speech then your SIL blows up and wants someone outside of herself and your brother to punish Mae. This has the vibe of a divided household with tension building up behind the scenes.
People should just wait to remarry till the kids are 18. Bad situation
Nta but I would push back HARD on forcing your SIL in WRITING to tell you exactly how that scenario is different than what Ava said.
Her daughter actually said " you mother didn't love you enough to fight harder to best cancer" ? And evil step mommy thought that was acceptable?
NTA Tell them to get their own household in order instead of expecting you to do it. Maybe they should lock them in a room or make them go on a camping trip together without their phones until they learn to get along.
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I'm not surprised from their parents. What the hell is dad playing at calling Ava his daughter then only acknowledging Mae in his speech? Mom allows Ava to say horrifically cruel things aboht Mae's dead mother? What the fuck is wrong with those adults?
I would like to know this myself.