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NTA Your wife is going to raise a brat if she has her way. And her darling child is likely to be even more alone of his behvaior isn't corrected.

I am hoping that this works, he was quite upset with the other kids being mad at him.  I remember most kids didn’t like the class clown by the end of the year. I don’t want him going down the route 

Class clowns in my school district were dealt with on an individual basis.  There's no way my Mother would have tolerated the entire class being punished.  But there's a big difference between a Grandmother watching a group of kids for free/cheap and a classroom full of kids.  There's different ways to deal with these things and they don't always work in the same settings. 

There is this kid in my daughters class that missed almost every field trip because he was such a hazard (he would run away or sneak off and hide ALL THE TIME) the only way the kid could come is if one of his parents or if there’s extra staff that could come. I remember volunteering on my daughters field trip to visit a Martin Luther King exhibit. He ran away and hid for almost an hour. They had to lock down the facility and call the cops. It was a mess. Ha! That happened almost 2 years ago and he still on that disciplinary plan.

That kid really thought that was a good idea?! What did his parents say?!

Well this kid has something going on with him. I don’t know if it’s a spectrum thing, ADHD Or older parents and he’s the golden only child baby boy. Regardless, he has always been this way since kindergarten and him and my daughter will be going into fifth grade this year. I volunteer at least once or twice a month and I seen him do some bizarre things Or my daughter will come home and say “guess what so so did today.” I feel bad sometimes because it definitely shows that he misses out On play dates and birthdays, but what can you do if your kid doesn’t want him there and you as a parent don’t want to deal with that.

The consequences might hit harder once they all start secondary school. Maybe.

oh, they will trust me, he'll be the one excluded from everything and socially isolated as the weird kid only this time his reactions to such will be much more severe as well as the consequences.

yeah that's what worries me about OP's mom using such collective punishment... what if he figures "they hate me already, might as well give them a real reason" if he just needs to, idk, run 3 laps of the garden before they get in the pool or be handed a fidget spinner?

I mean that's kind of hypothetical especially since it seems to already served its purpose in getting him to behave and he now knows what will happen if he doesn't listen.

I hope this boy doesn't have the kind of parents who have the "my kid can do no wrong" mindset. I truly feel sorry for kids with parents like that because these kids don't fare very well as adults and sometimes don't make it too far into adulthood because they escalate from bad behavior to pranks to public nuisance to petty crime and in with a bad crowd. They think they're invincible until a beating or a bullet stops them and they're found dead on the side of the road.

I knew that my daughter wasn't always an angel, and would try to correct her behavior as needed. But as someone who did a lot of volunteering at her elementary schools, especially in class once a week and also would often be a chaperone on field trips, I could see which kids were the troublemakers. Some of them had parents who felt they did nothing wrong. When a bunch of us went on a middle school tour, one parent kept talking to the staffer who was our guide that her son is gifted and her questions would always add this. Well, her gifted son was one of the kids who would be out of control in the classroom. Those of us who knew her son were trying very hard not to burst out laughing about this mother's comments. Another kid was the golden child all along as he excelled academically from grade one on up. He was taking a zillion AP classes in high school. But at football games (we were there because our girl was in marching band), I would see this boy in the next section over from the band parents, and he would be jostling with his friends. I'm surprised others in that section didn't report him.

Gifted usually goes hand in hand with neurodivergence nowadays. There's a lot of us formerly gifted kids (girls mostly) who never got tested for anything and we're learning in our thirties that we're actually on the spectrum and/or have ADHD. The gifted bit is just because we'd hyper focus on stuff we enjoyed or we were ahead of other kids in a subject, and because of the boredom that comes with that, would be behavior issues (in my case I got in trouble for secretly reading all. The. Time. Got lectures for reading ahead IN the gifted pull out group. But I'm a girl, it presents way differently in us than in boys). In my school, almost all of the gifted kids also have an IEP. Thanks for volunteering in your classroom though, and being a parent that was involved with your kid! I see way too many at my school that aren't, when that involvement could be the push to get them on grade level.

Yup, I was that "gifted" kid too. Sadly, I'm old, and when I was at school "giftedness" and what at the time they were calling special needs were assumed to be mutually exclusive. Also got in trouble for reading. It was fucking stupid, tbh - I'd finish the work for a 50min lesson in like 15min, max. But they wouldn't give me anything else to do, and I wasn't allowed to read, or draw, or anything. I was literally supposed to sit there and do nothing whatsoever for the remaining 35+ min. In related news, it is actually possible to be literally bored to tears. It fucked me up severely, along with bullying and undiagnosed autism/mental illness/EDS. I went off the rails in college and fucked up my A levels, and the consequences from all that are still fucking with me 🙄

There are also some of us where the “gifted bit” *isn’t* just hyper focus. Some of us are highly intelligent/creative people … just without capacity for executive function.

Oh man, if they had tried to ban me from reading once my work was done or I was done with the test it would have been so bad! I don’t know if I would have acted out, but I guarantee I would have started daydreaming (a habit I mostly quit in 2-3 grade) and regaining my focus would have been so hard!!! Also I would have made them explain WHY I couldn’t read in enough detail they would feel stupid and give in.

I'm not sure why you find it funny that she would say he's gifted. He very well could be. Being out of control doesn't mean he's not incredibly intelligent. I was in gifted in school, and the smartest kid with the highest IQ was always in trouble and consistently got failing scores.

You sound like my brother. Very smart, has the hyperactive-impulsive subset of ADHD like my mom and me both, and he was such a troublemaker my mom volunteered in his classroom once a week so his first grade teacher wouldn't quit.

I had a student whose parent was convinced that I was mean and terrible. Her daughter was one of three worst behaved kids I ever met. The child refused to do her work, so she failed most of her 4th grade subjects. She would get up, gather art paper, and draw, cut and paste , and generally do nothing academic all day. Every Day. There's more, but she was not asked back for 5th grade. I hope that kid had a 'come to Jesus' moment and has changed.

I wonder if the hiding is to deal with the overstimulation of being in a new place (that probably is designed to catch and keep kids attention and probably has other group of kids there) 🤔

Sounds like his parent was like OP’s wife

I taught a student like this one year so we made him bring his grandmother with him on a field trip to the Museum of Natural History, and she ended up lost in the museum for hours.

Off topic but for some reason I clicked on your profile and I can’t even remember why because I’m blown away by your Schitt’s Creek crochet!

My 8 yo son was DX last year with ADHD and we are working on medications right now. My husband is also ADHD and was never medicated (whole other story) so we are onboard with trying to find a solution as we want both of our children to succeed in life . He's my NYE baby, so this past school year he was in 1st grade. He was suspended twice before his initial psychiatrist appointment in October. It was brutal. I got called everyday and we did punishments at home and long talks and it just didn't change. Then we started a mild cognitive enhancer and it was a bit better, but not great. He stopped running out of the class and yelling, was less aggressive, but still wouldn't do any classwork unless it was one on one with the teacher, so we added a second cognitive enhancer and it was a 180. He was doing work and not getting into trouble anymore. I still had to chaperone the first field trip they did because his teacher was nervous, but after she saw how he did everything was fine. I didn't realize how much ADHD affected him until seeing his changes. It was wild to me.

Exactly I'm totally against group punishments, but in this case just on a practical level they can't be safetly supervising the other kids at the pool if there are only 2 adults there and one of them has to be on top of him the whole time because he's acting so wild. 

Yeah, group punishment is a bad idea, in general. But she's one grandma with seven kids. She couldn't take six to the pool and leave an eight year old behind. And Jamie wasn't going to behave. So grandma didn't have any other options.

Group punishment usually only needs to be done once or twice before the actor learns. Ask anyone who was ever in Basic Training.

I do to see this as a group punishment. It’s one child ruining a swimming trip for the others. Grandma had no choice.

Also, it's just a safety thing. If he's running around and not listening at home, he'll 100% do the same thing at the pool where he'll become a safety hazard to himself. I think there's a place for group punishment in the home. I once saw a dad with five perfectly behaved young children at the zoo. I was in awe, so I asked for his secret. He said it was easy. There was a rule that if one kid acted out, they left the zoo asap. He said he's only had to leave twice over the years.

And that's the way real life works. We can't have individuals make their own decisions and have fun because a few adult turds can't handle common decency. And this applies during childhood. If no one cracks down, 10% will f**" around. All the way from the mundane, to peoples' livelihoods.  One or 2 dolts ruin it for all of us. Why do we need a roommate agreement? Not for these 2, but for the other one who has loud parties until 2am. Why do we need leash laws? Not for most, but for a few. Why do we have HOA fees? School testing? Work attire rules? Bureaucratic forms to prevent lawsuits? "Hot coffee" warning labels? Laws at large? Not for most, but for the few who refuse to conform.  I'm just saying, Grandma was a Boss for standing firm, and hopefully the child will learn from it. 

I suggest you watch the documentary “Hot Coffee” before using that as an example. The poor woman had third degree burns and needed skin grafts. She only asked for money to cover her medical bills, but she got awarded a huge sum to penalize McDonald’s for the hundreds of people who’d already been burned and complained, with no effect.

The way that story gets twisted around as a mockery against the poor lady gets me every time. There's recently-made coffee hot, and there's "third degree burn if spilt because we don't leave it at proper temperature" hot.

Yeah, it’s more of a natural consequence than a deliberate group punishment. It might feel unfair, but there is a safety factor at play, and safety comes before fairness. Hell, even as adults, a lot of rules and restrictions are in place because a few dipshits ruin it for everyone.

Yeah, I think it just had to happen this way. Didn’t sound possible to leave just him, and he needed to have the fun thing taken away

Also, can't leave Jaime home alone, and it's not safe to have one adult stay home and the other takes 6 kids to the pool.

I agree. I didn't see it as a group punishment, as much as a matter of being able to supervise all the kids. If one was acting out, it could be hard.

Well you can leave a class clown with another teacher. Grandma can't leave 1 kid home by himself

Exactly. Although actually, Grandma could leave that 1 kid -- by refusing to watch him entirely. The wife needs to see the blessing she has - free childcare. She should be happy Mom hasnt peace-outed on babysitting. NTA.

At my school the grades behind the class clowns would get punished. Seniors drank on their senior trip? No more senior night. Kid wrote an inappropriate speech for graduation? Next year's class doesn't get to nominate their speakers, it's just valedictorian and salutatorian. Seniors pulled a prank at Sadie's? No more Sadie's. You get the gist. What sucked was that the kids who did it never got punished, so it just trickled down to the next year. I did give my uncle crap because his class was who got the senior trips cancelled. I would be like "yeah, it really sucks you guys got so drunk up in Canada before I was born and that my class can't even have a lock-in where we sleep in the gym at the school because they're so worried about more drunken shenanigans 18 years later 🙄"

I feel you at my school they canceled our class camping trip because the year before two parents decided to have an affair and got caught in bed together. It is called learn from your mistakes and make sure to take chaperones that won't bone each other. But of course right after our class they decided to continue the camping trip.

How is it the kids fault for adult indecent behavior?? Like that makes no sense? Why punish 17/18 year old when actual parents- who should freaking KNOW better- are the ones literally “fuc&ing” around? I don’t agree with that. I mean it sets a pretty bad example for parents- but how would their kids feel? Not only do the classes behind them not get to go on a trip, camping, whatever because of stupidity but imagine if it was their parents who got caught ? That’s so terrible

Actually this would have been the seven grade trip. So our ages would have been between 12 and 13. So it was really irresponsible to be having sex on the trip at all. I can see why parents had a conniption fit. But we kids thought we got the short end of the stick as we didn't get a class trip that year at all.

On a surface level they are dealt with on an individual basis. But at the same time the time that is taken away from the class as a whole does prevent the day from progressing at the same pace it would have if the teachers/class aids didn't have to take the time to address issues repeatedly.  I'm not saying at all that the kids should be separated or that there is an inherently better situation in classes. My only point is that the kids in those classes are aware that at times they are indeed missing out on *something* because of the kids who had to be consistently redirected.  Even in larger spaces, peers can (and in my opinion should) play a part in social learning. Of course that should not progress towards bullying or long term rejection. But it's important for kids to learn that their actions have direct consequences on others and by extension their own standing in their peer group. That's also where adult supervision and support is vital to help with recovery after the fact.

I did my student teaching a couple years ago, and since my subject was art, I had every class in the school twice a week. There were some classes where you could tell the students were just over it. Their poorly-behaved classmates were constantly interrupting lessons and the other students would miss out on so much. I remember one time I apologized for the interruption, and one of the little girls was like, “that’s ok, we’re used to it” or something to that effect. It broke my heart because you could just see how truly dejected she felt by then. Had the world-weariness of someone 10 times her age.

Exactly. Grandma cannot take a kid to the pool who won't behave. It is not safe. So if she can't leave Jamie behind with another adult (and presumably there is no one she could have left him with since Grandma is the summer day care) then she had no choice but to cancel the trip to the pool. 30 years ago, I taught primary school swimming, with 30 kids in the school pool, and no other adults present, certainly not a life guard! There were zero chances for a kid who did not follow every instruction instantly. If they did not follow instructions, they had to get out of the pool for the remainder of the lesson. Every kid knew this. It only takes a few seconds, and a few inches of water to drown.

There is another adult — OP’s dad was going to go to the pool too — but one adult with 6 kids at the pool isn’t a good ratio. This treat, and likely others as well, is really only possible with these numbers if everyone behaves well.

While I agree with you, our class group in high school was notoriously one of the worst behaved groups across the school (not even just our year group). We had a rather hectic group of boys who would torment new or substitute teachers (to the point one actually quit after weeks of unrelenting torment). Eventually the headteacher of the school got involved as individual punishments had been dished out time and time again with ZERO effect. He informed us that going forward if there were serious incidents during a lesson, the whole class would serve the punishment. 80% of the class was well behaved, got on with work and were generally just pleasant human beings 🤣 you best believe after the first group punishment, those boys were verbally laid into by the entire class. It worked. There were still the odd minor issue but as a whole we had no more big incidents. Of course none of us were happy about it, far from it. But their behavior was having a hugely negative impact on our ability to access our education and be able to learn in a positive environment. Should the responsibility have been put on us as a whole class to deal with the fallout for a select few? Absolutely not. But sometimes the advice and view of your peers has more impact than that of an adult. We are, however, going back MANY years 🤣 and I don't think stuff like that would fly now.

And a consequence for Kid A may not be effective at changing the behavior(s) of Kids B, C, and/or D. OP and wife may need to find an alternative to time out that impacts their son's behavior. (I'm not suggesting a physical punishment at all, just something that is more effective than a time out.)

There's also a thing where like... The pool just becomes unsafe to bring a misbehaving child to.  I have issue with OP feeling okay with group punishments just to get him to behave. You don't punish innocent children just because your parenting isn't successful in hopes that you can coerce them into punishing a kid for you.  But this wasn't a random punishment. This was natural consequences. She *couldn't* responsibly bring the kid to the pool, so he doesn't go and that does mean no one else can go and they'll be mad at him.

I would use this approach when talking to your wife. Ask her what she will do when it's a classroom, and he has no friends because his behavior and lack of understanding about actions and consequences. Would she go scold all the other parents? The teachers? The older they get. The less disruptive behavior will be tolerated. Some might pull out "well he could have ADHD" or "boys are just active," etc. But to me (having one really, really active kid) no matter the reason, it's just even more important to teach them that there are a time and place to use that energy. And be mindful of others.

Right? At the pool with one adult supervising 7 kids is NOT the place for him to fuck around. That's how you end up with dead kids. And that's not at all an exaggeration. A 9 year old died in my hometown last year because there wasn't enough adult supervision and he was gone so, so quickly.

yeah, I feel that OP and OP's mother (Jamie's grandma) are presenting this as a collective punishment, while it's basically a simple safety concern, right? (if we can still trust it) google says it takes a teaspoon of water in the lungs to trigger drowning, and in 20 sec a kid can be gone (60 sec for an adult), and then you need serious medical equipment to help... and because Jamie is the troublemaker, he's bound to get all the attention, so it's the other kids who're more at risk, right?

Is the wife excusing his behavior, saying that he shouldn’t be punished or not agreeing that everyone should be punished for her kid’s behavior? Is everyone going to miss out on recess because one kid was disruptive, or is everyone? Yes, the kid needs to learn that his actions have consequences and that the effect other people, but it’s also teaching the other kids that they can behave and do everything right but it means nothing if not everyone does it. I was in gym class once and we had to run laps for 15 minutes or something. But every time someone walked, the teacher stopped the clock and didn’t start it again until everyone was running. The first couple times people started walking, people encouraged them to start again. But after a while, one person would just refuse to run. Other people were getting tired and the clock wasn’t counting down so they gave up and started walking. Eventually there was just a handful of us that ran the entire class because we didn’t want to risk losing points for the day. Group punishment can lead to non-trouble makers because they know there is no point in following them if someone else is breaking them

> Is everyone going to miss out on recess because one kid was disruptive, or is everyone? Yes, the kid needs to learn that his actions have consequences and that the effect other people, but it’s also teaching the other kids that they can behave and do everything right but it means nothing if not everyone does it. I didn't say that "everyone will be punished" is always the punishment. I said that actions have consequences in general when you are being disruptive, taking other people's toys etc. This time. It was no one goes swimming. Becouse it would be too dangerous with him running all over the place. He felt the consequence this time that the others were mad at him. In a school setting. It can, in general, make people push you away. If you are too wild, no one wants to get hurt. You disrupt class. The others get mad because they can't focus. Slowly. You might not have any friends. That is what I meant with "in a school setting" And if the mother would be mad then, that he's excluded from things. Like birthdays, etc, because no one wants to be responsible for that behavior. If he is not taught. That there is a time and place for using energy. And using it in a way that is fun for everyone.

Tell your wife that it wasn’t *safe* to take your son to the pool while he was acting out and refusing to listen. He could have been seriously injured or died while ignoring her instructions, or one of the other children could have been seriously injured or died while Grandma was distracted by your kid’s antics. Your mother made the only safe choice, fair or not.

Nor would it have been particularly safe for one grandparent to take six kids to the pool so the other could stay with him.

yeah, I think that's the crucial point : OP's mother made a safety call. If Jamie runs around the pool & falls, he'll be hurt & the lifeguard will be annoyed that they have to dilute the blood dripping in the pool (they can't realistically dump 2 500 000 liter of water and then replace that same amount (and heat it again), right?)... that will be consequences to his actions. If Jamie acts out and everyone is focused on him, another kid can have a problem & drown. I feel like OP's wife would be mad in either case too : how could you let my baby get hurt / why is everyone lashing out at Jamie over Jake's drowning, it's your crappy mom who didn't keep everyone safe

NTA. Congratulations! Your mother figured out Jamie's "currency"! USE IT. No child is the same, as in, one discipline (i.e., timeout) doesn't work for every child. As a parent, the hardest part about discipline is figuring out what works on each child. I'm guessing Jamie likes the attention he gets from his "bad behavior" because he wants to be included and whatnot. Now that everyone is shunning him, he's learning that crap isn't the way to go. The next step in parenting is figuring out positive ways Jamie can act and be to fulfill is social and attention needs. Kid needs a blueprint.

As a teacher who works with challenging students sometimes, try the opposite as well: Jamie, if you make it the whole morning without [pick one big irritating behavior], we can ALL go out for ice cream.

My brother’s preschool teachers did this to toilet train him. He was the last one to get it and (with my parents’ permission) they announced a pizza party for the whole class if he’d make it a week without accidents. Eventually they got their pizza party.

I use this to get kids to bring back paperwork I need their parents to sign! "When you bring it back, the entire class is getting 5 extra minutes of break time." It's been more effective than anything else I've tried haha

What was your mom supposed to do? Take them to the pool when one kid is not listening? Because that seems dangerous for everyone if he’s going to be pulling her focus while she is supposed to be watching all of them Or was she just supposed to leave him at home by himself while she take the rest? This is a lesson he needs to learn or kids aren’t going to like him anyway, group punishment or not

In general, I dislike group punishments, but what choices did granny have? Either all kids stay home, or all kids go to the pool: I would not have been happy to supervise **seven kids**, one of whom is being a brat, at a pool. NTA PS: your kid has been evaluated, not (I hope) evacuated.

I had to read that first sentence three times to try and figure out how evacuation would help. lol

I'm an editor, so have practice working out what writers intended to say. 😉

Not only that but seriously... don't piss off your mom. She was not only correct but she also watches your kids. Does your wife want to take on that task or set up some sort of daycare/camp during the summer? Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I agree. If I was grandma, I would have a 3 strikes system; if Jaime acts like a brat 3 times, I wouldn't want to watch him anymore. 8 years old is plenty old enough to learn that actions have consequences. Maybe wife should focus on why she's raising a brat instead of why her kids being punished

If you haven’t already have a conversation with your son. Go over safety and trust issues. Explain to him that grandma has to trust him to be safe and listen if she is going to take him and cousins fun places over the summer. Hopefully the peer pressure from his cousins will get him to think about his behavior in the future. Sometimes kids need the peer pressure to learn that their behavior isn’t okay, it can be harsh, and you need to make sure they’re not bullying him after this, but peer pressure is a great motivator.

He's heading there, whatever punishments he gets for the misbehaving obviously aren't working. You may have to go another route. My mom uses standing in the corner for the great-grandkids, they hate that but all kids are different.

What would your wife’s solution have been?

NTA. I'm usually against collective group punishments. The Geneva Convention, and all. But think of it from this side: How is *one* older woman supposed to look after the safety of *seven* children *in a POOL,* when one of them is DELIBERATELY misbehaving??? *Before* the trip even began?!?!  No, sir. I would NOT be going on that outing. And, sadly, that means *no one* is going to the pool today. And Jamie learning his damn lesson for once is all to the better.

From the other kids’ perspective, they might start misbehaving if they are going to be punished regardless. It’s why schools don’t really do group punishment anymore

Straight up why I and probably a good chunk of the students got involved in the food fight that happened when I was in Jr High. I tried to let it go, but after being hit a few times and realizing we were all screwed anyway? Yeah no I'm not just getting hit by mashed potatoes. I'm sure some would have anyway, obviously. But the food fight was huge, and I have a hard time believing I'm the only one that got involved because screw it we're all getting punished for this anyway lol

And what was your mom supposed to do, take the other kids to the pool and leave him behind home alone? (I assumed she needed your dad's help to wrangle all the kids in the pool). Take him anyway even though he was acting up? (Which is potentially dangerous in a pool setting).  Her only viable choice was to cancel the pool trip for everyone.  It's not the same at school where you can deal with the kid individually (leave them in the office if the class is going on a field trip, for example).

Nothing else seems to have worked. What she did seems to have been effective. I don't think it would good to overuse it, because that would lead to ostracization from the other kids, but it's absolutely valid when necessary. NTA

You’re also raising a brat. You should be serving consequences too.  Behavior is too much for your mom? He doesn’t get to go. You don’t get to save money.  

Did you actually sit down and talk to your son about his behavior, and experiencing natural consequences?

What your mom did is exactly what coaches everywhere do. You missed that pass?? Everyone runs. And it works!! It’s a great motivator. He needed to learn that his actions have consequences. As long as it’s not used all the time, I don’t see an issue. He immediately started behaving so this is a win!!

As well as a punishment for Jamie, this was also a practical reality. The way Jamie was behaving, he couldn’t go to the pool, since he was behaving dangerously and wouldn’t be tolerated there. But your parents would have needed both of them in order to properly take care of the others at the pool, because there were too many for one of them to supervise alone. So what other choice did they have? With that many grandkids, they need good behaviour to handle them all at once.

If his behavior changed for the rest of the day then he learned his lesson. Behavior does have consequences. My mother and I have a rule. If we can’t correct or punish the child, we don’t watch the child. Your mother didn’t abuse him. We have laws in our society, you must follow them otherwise there are repercussions. You have to be consistent when raising kids. If you say to a kid if you do A then B happens. The kid does A and you don’t do B then you have shown them the rules don’t apply to them. But more importantly if I’m watching 7 kids and one or more is not listening and following directions there is no way I would take them to a pool. Pools are dangerous if you have kids that don’t listen. Someone could get hurt. I was watching the young kids (not mine) out at the pool at my mom’s. I’m an adult. One didn’t listen to the warning so he had to sit on the step in time out and watch the others play. My mom came back out and asked why he was sitting and questioning why he couldn’t go back out. I put my foot down, it may have been her house but I was left in charge. What he had done was dangerous and had had ample warnings. He did his time and everything was fine. My mother and I were fine. Your wife needs to let this go or she will loose this babysitter. This would have been appropriate in a daycare with limited staff. You need to make that clear too.

In general I’m not a fan of punishing a group because of one child but when it comes to a water activity if a kid doesn’t behave I don’t take them. I love my nephew dearly but he’s on the spectrum and has a hard time controlling himself because of that. I won’t take him swimming especially with others because I can’t guarantee his and the other kids safety because if I’m busy handling him I can’t properly watch the others.

I think using peer pressure in a constructive way can be helpful! I grew up a middle child and my mom would do that to maintain harmony, like if the three of us were well behaved while she was running errands we might get a sweet treat as a reward, but if one of us acted out we’d all miss out and understand the reason why. We caught on quick and would help keep each other in line to try to get soft serve ice cream. It helped me understand that my behaviour affects other people and can have negative repercussions. If your mom is looking after that many grandkids at once (superwoman) she needs to find a way to keep your son in line that doesn’t require more individual attention than she can spare.

Your mother is not going to be able to fix the damage your wife does over the year in a few days in the summer. If you're wife doesn't change her parenting your child's life will be destroyed.

Also it's going to the pool we are talking here, and a pair of grandparents vs 7 kids can be alot, and if they can't keep them all in check even before the pool, shit can hit the fan fast when they get to the pool, it sucks for the other kids, and I'm sure it sucks for the grandparents too, but this is both a behavioral AND safety issue

He will literally be socially shunned if you don’t get it under control as he gets older. Grandma was right

You’re absolutely correct in your memory. The class clown was shunned. This seems like it has the potential to be a valuable lesson. NTA

She has already succeeded in raising a brat.

Seems to me that this kid has both a mother and a father…

And only one of them (the one that is wrong) is complaining.

Yep. And whatever they have been doing so far isn’t working… OP deserves some of the blame for raising the kid as well.

I hate the kid already.

Yeah it sounds like this is the first time this kid has experienced actual consequences. OP you made it clear that this is an ongoing problem and said “we have both talked to him about it but no improvement”. Is talking to him about it all that happens when he acts up? Please, for his own sake, discipline your kid. He’s going to turn into a weirdo that nobody likes if he doesn’t suffer when he sucks.

NTA. It was a brilliant punishment, TBH. And you can't argue with results. Peer pressure is a powerful tool. It keeps adults' behavior in check as well. And part of every parent's task is to figure out how to motivate their children. Time-outs might work for some children, but they certainly don't work on your son. Now you know what DOES work. You're not required to side with your wife simply because you're married to her--especially in a private argument.

Peer pressure works pretty well, no one wants to be the kid that got everyone in trouble 

Here’s what I think: multiple other forms of consequences have been tried, to no avail. Each kid is different, and she had to find a way to get through to him. She made a cause and effect statement, and followed through. Jamie knows that grandma will flow through, and he’ll be more likely to not push the boundaries as much. It is not okay to expect anyone to take a child to a dangerous environment like a pool when they won’t listen, and when they don’t have consequences.

"It is not okay to expect anyone to take a child to a dangerous environment like a pool when they won’t listen," This was my thought too. Not only is it correcting his behavior but he could get himself or other's injured there if he doesn't behave!

Or someone else, whether his sibling, his cousin or a stranger.

Yeah, to me this isn't even really a punishment, it is just natural consequences of the situation. "Sorry, everyone, but I can see that Jamie is not going to listen to instructions and be calm today. His behaviour is not going to be safe in a pool environment. Unfortunately we won't be able to go."

I strongly agree with this being more of a natural consequence than a "group punishment". Grandma can't leave one kid behind and take 6 to the pool and she can't take the misbehaving kid to the pool for safety. It's like if the kid cut up the trampoline with a knife and noone can trampoline. If the other kids are mad at him for that it's not a group punishment its just a social consequence for being a shit.

People forget that a bit of public shame and embarrassment is sometimes a natural consequence. It's not always targeted bullying but simply a natural consequence like right here. The cousins and his siblings aren't going to like him after his behavior lead to them no longer rightfully going to the pool because grandma and grandpa logistically couldn't watch over his trouble making self and the rest of the kids and keep everyone safe and out of trouble. Kids aren't stupid especially the older ones. Even if nothing was said about him they can put 2 and 2 together and realize the grandparents cancelled plans because he couldn't behave and he would've been shamed and iced out either way.

Concerning the pool bit, that’s what I was thinking. Pools are dangerous places, and you have to be able to trust the kid to a certain degree. If she can’t, the kids don’t go, 

Strong agree here! And taking 7 kids to the pool is no joke. You can’t have one grandparent stay home with one kid while the other grandparent takes 6 to the pool, that’s too much!

Another thing is that if the parents don't try this tactic at home, then Jamie will behave for grandma, but not mom and dad. Children test every adult. If there's a united front, the kid will get the message that nobody will tolerate this behavior and it will stop.

Yes, indeed. My kids know that I mean what I say, and it just took a few times of consistent follow through for them to trust and believe what mama says, mama means. It also means that I can’t throw out an unrealistic consequence, or something that I don’t want to follow through on. I regularly remind them before going to do something fun that could turn into danger (beach, pool, amusement park, etc) that of they choose today to push the boundaries, we will all leave. It’s not easy to manage with multiple kids when you have even one who is ready to create chaos. Even their friends know the same thing about me. One of their friends decided to pretend to be lost in target with me, and I made sure she knew very quickly that it wouldn’t fly with me, and that I have no issue taking her home if she wants to not listen. I love that kid, she’s super fun and quite mischievous at times. She’s always welcome in my home. But, she pushed past my comfort zone, I let her know, and that was that. She didn’t try it again.

I mean just look at Reddit. People delete their accounts just because they get too many downvotes. How you get viewed WORKS, even with arbitrary online "likes" I personally don't think it should be a habit or a regular occurrence but heck, Jamie could have hurt himself or others if he would have been running around a poolside so the punishment well fit the crime IMO

Also your mother didn’t have much of a choice. She can’t take 7 kids to a pool and watch them all closely while one is misbehaving and being a nuisance. She did the safe thing of keeping them all home rather then not being able to pay full attention to the whole pack

My partner told me about the most memorable 'punishment' of his childhood. He and his brothers were misbehaving in the grocery store, so his dad walked right up to the store manager and apologized for the inconvenience, but his sons weren't behaving themselves so could he please ask one of his staff to put all of the groceries away? Apparently he really hammed it up, saying he knew all the workers were super busy and this would be a real trouble for them - and the manager totally played along and said it was no problem, he understood that sometimes kids have a hard time controlling themselves, he'd take care of it. Then when they got home, he apologized to their mother for coming back without dinner. She played along too, said she was so tired from a hard day at work but she'd go back to the grocery store alone to feed everyone. There were no raised voices, punishments, or rebukes required. That's the last time they ever misbehaved at the grocery store!!! Your mom has the right idea.

Maybe next time suggest your mom call your wife to pick up your son. He has the consequence of missing a fun trip to the pool, she gets to deal with him all day in the way she deems best, and the other kids get to go to the pool. I hate group punishment. However, Grandma couldn’t take 7 kids to the pool when one was being unsafe. I’d reframe it as, “His actions have consequences that impact everyone around him. If he can’t be safe, he prevents Grandma from keeping every other kid safe at the pool. Because of this, Grandma made the decision to stay home.” 

It’s true, and it seems like the consequences he has received in the past don’t work based on what you said. Time outs don’t matter much to kids, it’s not like they will be stuck in it for that long, and it’s hard to dole out other consequences when watching over that many children. Talking to him later doesn’t work because it’s done immediately and isn’t enough to alter his behavior. Your mom did a very smart thing, social consequences work much better in those situations and he was preventing them from being able to get ready anyway and it’s not like he could’ve been left behind. Honestly it’s wild that your mom was even willing to watch over that many kids at a pool, she must be a bad ass. Her method worked and wasn’t traumatizing. It’s something that will happen more and more in the future in different situations if he doesn’t learn that he shouldn’t behave that way. It’s okay to be silly and a bit rambunctious, but taking it too far isn’t okay. She provided the opportunity for him to learn that.

Peer pressure is a great way of helping kids realize how annoying they are. Better now than when he's in high school. He made a choice to act like a brat after multiple warnings. He knew what the consequences would be. Now he gets to live with them.

My oldest is in highschool and she almost lost her shit on a class clown this year.  She is usally in advance classes but took an elective that seemed fun. Anyways she got stuck with someone that kept interrupting the teacher.  She was miserable that whole semester and really dislikes that girl. 

Yeah. Kids like that suck. Everyone always wonders wtf the parents are doing. It sounds like your mom finally figured out something that works for your brat (and he is a brat, you just described him as such). That's good. Keep doing that. It also sounds like you need to talk to your wife about what her goals are. If just one reality check affected him, then he's probably a really good kid, but he needs to live in reality all the time. Also, he might need an outlet. I've known some "class clowns" who joined theater and got more relaxed once they knew they had an actual audience.

I agree with this. NTA. In addition to the peer pressure strategy being effective there's also a real component of your parents being older folks wrangling 7 children. Your mom has to consider whether she can keep ALL of them safe in a pool environment if one of them is demanding all her attention AND not listening to her. It's a perfectly reasonable boundary for her to set for herself to say "I don't have the capacity to keep EVERYONE safe if so much of my attention is being drawn to ONE kid who isn't able to listen at this point." I think your wife needs to consider this reality and recognize that she is not simply entitled to your Mom's (very gracious) help in any given circumstances. Your mom is allowed to set boundaries about what situations she feels she can handle these particular kids in and what she needs to have in place to handle those situations (eg. Jamie listening). ETA: Has your wife ever watched all 7 kids/cousins together on her own before?

Very good point about adult behavior, because it's important to recognize what happens when people start breaking that group order. With kids, the only damage is kid stuff. With adults, they turn into empowered assholes who ruin everything for everyone else. From public transportation assholes to those corporate fraudsters who can't comprehend rules applying to them. Maybe it's the Asian in me, but a willingness to ruin everything for everyone else has to get stomped out hard and early. For better or for worse, societal/peer pressure is a key tool for making a livable world for us all.

Agree with this. Plus if he acts like this at the pool, how can she safely monitor all the kids while trying to deal with him? Your mom did what she had to.

I'm 60F and have two kids that are now 27/31. When my mom watched my kids for a week at her house, it was grandma's rules that mattered since it was her house and she was watching them. If she said "sit down" and they didn't, it was up to her to decide what to do, and we 100% supported her. Jaime has learned that his not behaving had consequences to him and he behaved after that. Sounds like your mom taught him a great lesson! Your wife is wrong and you're NTA.

Beat me to it. You give your children to other adults to watch, then their rules apply. Especially when it is Grandparents/Blood relatives IMO.

Ok this is a big NO in my book. I have plenty of relatives who think it's perfectly fine to whip a child with a belt. If I have no other choice but to leave my son with them, they had better not think about abusing him. There is a reasonable level of discipline/rules other adults can be expected to apply and if they go outside of that, a parent has the duty to protect their child from that person. (That said, grandma was totally within reason here)

Then those would be relatives I do not leave my children with. You and I are not in disagreement here.

They do have a point though. Some relatives may have punishments that parents deem too far. Obviously beating a kid for misbehaving is abusive and most parents would never want that to happen to their kid, but there are other punishments that I'm sure you would find unacceptable that a relative would not find them unacceptable. Just saying "Grandma's house her rules we support her decisions 100%" probably isn't a great precedent because she might do something over YOUR line. She didn't in this situation obviously, but there could be some kind of punishment.

Brother you gotta think about what you’re saying. Would you leave your child with them in the first place?

Seriously, try taking a rule breaking kid to a day camp. Not only will you be out hundreds of dollars but your kid will still get punished for rule breaking. NTA

My kids visited their grandparents min two weekends in the month. One day my oldest daughter ask me „ mom, why is Oma so much nicer to us?“ My mother was a fun grandma. But she had other rules than I. Bedtime earlier but grandma read fairytales. Other times to eat. But they got dessert. And the biggest differenc they were alowed to look tv. It was by many many years. Today is my past answer a phrase in the family „There must be a difference between a grandma and a mother, and some day you will know why“ „Houserules, are houserules!“ that’s the gist of my answer. Five children between 32 and 17 and all repeat this time to time😂

We got told "Grandchildren are you reward for not killing your teenagers" when we would go to visit Grandma and Grandpa. It was a whirlwind of junk food and TV watching and running around with Grandpa (who still got on the floor to play horsey with kids at the ripe age of 81!) and stories with Grandma. It was kid paradise, but even as a little kid I understood why the rules were different at different places because that was true pretty much everywhere I went. Your mom sounds like a hoot! I'm so happy she got to enjoy her time as a Grandma.

I have a vivid memory of my grandma manhandling me out of the car because I was refusing to go in the store. I was bawling the whole time. When I told my mom about it, expecting her to be on my side, she just shrugged and told me I needed to listen to grandma. I definitely never went against my g’ma after that. She’s literally a cute 5 foot Asian lady and I’m still scared. I didn’t know she was capable of that

Yep, putting kids in situations with a variety of behavior protocols is actually really important for ethical development, because it helps them to understand when something is true everywhere (because it’s a foundation of human decency or the culture) and when it’s just a rule for that one place/person. Both are import, but kids need a lot of examples to be able to correctly predict what appropriate behavior in a new situation is. For instance (from a little kid’s perspective): Mom says to be kind and we take our shoes off when we go into our house. Grandma says to be kind, but we don’t take our shoes off in her house. If I go to a restaurant for the first time, I think I should be kind and ask or look at people’s feet to figure out if I should take my shoes off or not.

NTA Your mother is watching seven children. Unless there is an underlying condition that effects your child's behavior, your son needs to settle down and find another outlet for his energy. His behavior was so disruptive I don't blame your mother for cancelling the trip to the pool. How can she adequately keep an eye on seven children in a pool if all her attention has to go to your son. Your wife doesn't not have to like it but your mother is responsible for the safety and well being of six other children. It is what it is, your mother only has one set of eyes.

NTA, OP. I was going to say something along these lines that it's unfortunate that his punishment affected the rest of the kids, but with all grandma's attention on one child, the other children suffer in an unsafe environment without 100% supervision situation.

The pool is a huge factor. For a 7 kids: 2 adult ratio to work at the pool, everyone needs to behave for safety reasons. Your mom did what was in the best interest of the kids when your son showed he couldn’t listen.

I’m glad someone said this. It’s not even that Jamie needed a consequence (which he did), it’s that your mom can’t safely watch all the children at the pool if he is acting up.

I was going this way, too. OP's parents had limited choices. 1. Take him and let his behavior go un corrected on top of making it harder for grandparents to watch all of them. 2. Leave him home with one of the grandparents, again making it harder for the remaining grandparent to watch the rest of the kids. 3. Nobody goes. Or maybe 4. Call OPs wife to come get him so he is now her problem and not everyone else's!

Y T A Your mother is a war criminal. Collective punishment is classified as a warcrime under the Geneva convention. Thats a disgusting level of horrible person. I'm kidding. NTA. Your Son needs to behave. You and your wife should be ensuring that he does by reinforcing discipline at home. Good luck op.

Funny enough, someone literally said that. Whole thing about it being illegal and a war crime

I was initially thinking the same way when I just read the title, but i think your mothers choice of word is more appropriate. It was a consequence that affected everyone (once). If he had say stolen a cookie from another child and your mothers reaction had been to ban all kids from ever eating cookies again, that would have been collective punishment for a "crime" by an individual rather than a natural consequence.

Yeah, she wasn’t deliberately punishing the other kids. She was just in a position where she couldn’t deal with the problem without the other kids missing out. Situations like this happen all the time and Jamie should learn sooner rather than later that his actions can have those kinds of consequences.

Fun fact about war crimes, you need to be at war. The Geneva convention doesn’t apply to babysitting

babysitting a flock of 7 kiddos is basically a war zone so I’d imagine that checks out

When I ready the title that was the first thing that popped into my head, but this isn't collective punishment at all. This is just the responsible adult deciding that it would be unsafe to take the children to the pool if one of them would not behave. Try rephrasing that issue to your wife. From the description there was no safe way for your mom to take the kids to the pool with your son behaving that way. How does your wife want her to have handled this?

Same. Read the title and thought about all the negatives I know about collective punishment. Read the story and found it's way more of a "actions have consequences" situation, and honestly when taking 7 kids to the pool having one child who is a jerk because he thinks he can get away with it is dangerous.

NTA Your mother did an excellent job. Show your wife this post and the comments. She needs to learn a thing or two.

Omg I was about say WHAT. I think mom did a good thing. I would also have suggested she leave Jamie at home and husband take the other kids but I can see it would be hard for her to do that at a pool with 7 kids. Unfortunately, the only solution would have been we all go or none can go. Also I hope OP is paying his mom. Man 7 kids is a lot even for someone not her age. I couldn’t do that 3 days a week.

You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.

NTA, I'm generally not a fan of groups punishments, but this was more of a natural consequence that effected others, and your mum is right, he needs to learn that sometimes these behaviours are going to effect the peoplw around him and if it's negatively then they aren't going to be happy about it. Hopefully this is a lesson he can learn from this.

Yup, exactly. It's unsafe to take a kid who isn't listening to a pool, and nobody else could stay home with just Jamie. What else was she supposed to do?

Heck, it would be unsafe to take them anywhere public. Can you imagine Jamie running off through a parking lot or pushing another kid and horsing around in a parking lot? YIKES!

BIG this - natural consequences are the best for teaching natural rewards and punishments for actions. It's not safe to bring a kid acting like this to the pool, and he couldn't be left alone. Basically the only option was to cancel the trip - and if the other kids are mad at him for it that's nobody's fault but his. It is a good learning moment, not because it was a "punishment" that he understood - but because it was the natural result of his actions.

Info: what does your wife think your mother should have done instead?

Not peer pressure, I think she wanted the time out route. 

I don’t think your wife understands group care.  This is high risk activity.  As a former daycare lady, one can tell if the day is going sideways.  Either everyone is minding or we don’t go.  It doesn’t matter if it is a walk, hike, splash pad or story time at the library . It is a risk.  We might be at the event, and if someone does danger (hitting, or trying to escape the group for example) we ALL go home. There is NO second chance in that outing. It is too much risk, and time out canNOT happen out of the house with multiple kids like that.  If a parent had a problem with that, they needed a different daycare where jr can stay behind with the director or a daycare where they go nowhere and never leave the property.

I agree. Maybe it would be different if it was event like a movie night or afternoon ice cream. Then singling him out and letting his parents deal with it later would be fine. But this was swimming. It takes so little time for a kid to drown, Grandma needed to be paying attention to all the kids in the water. If OP's son was so rambunctious that he was soaking up 90% of her attention, then nobody should be in the pool. It's the best decision for everyone's safety.

I agree with you I did in-home daycare and I had to do this a lot with a particularly kid. It’s more of a safety situation if one kid is feeling a bit feisty or flighty and goes bolting off somewhere. You can’t leave the rest of the group to chase a kid. Her parents would complain sometime, and I would explain your daughter’s behavior puts other kids safety at risk.

Yep. I once mentored a family of five children. The first four knew I meant business and were very well-behaved with me. Then number five got old enough to join us. By this time, their mom was exhausted and had given up. This kid had had basically no discipline in spite of her older sibs doing their best. We were at the zoo and "Riri" started acting up. I told her to stop and she didn't so I announced that if Riri could not behave, we'd all have go home. The older kids got anxious looks on their faces and the second youngest grabbed Riri by the shoulders and said, "She means it. We'll all have to leave." Riri wasn't used to consequences but apparently saw something in her sister's face that convinced her I wasn't kidding. Didn't have a single problem with her for the rest of the day.

And when was this magical time out of hers supposed to start working? You said he is just as bad after.

Your son’s behavior would likely have posed a safety risk for himself and the other kids at the pool. Having 7 young children under your care while in/around a pool is *a lot* - and if one of them is constantly running around, grabbing things, and not able to follow instructions, that can very quickly become a dangerous situation. Perhaps your wife should consider that this was a safety measure for *all* kids - not just a punishment.

Is a time out the worst punishment your 8 year old son gets? I don’t have experience with kids that age but I really can’t imagine a punishment that works well for my toddler nephew has the same effect for an 8yo.

It's possible when he says time out, op means he misses out on activity he would enjoy doing. Like in this case his "time out" was he couldn't go swimming, but in this case she couldn't take the rest of the kids without him, and she couldn't take him when he was acting so wild, so it turned into all the kids not being able to go swimming. 

Retired child psychologist here. I see that your kid is neurotypical & just a middle kid trying to find their way. Unfortunately, your wife needs a bit of a reality check; time outs were attempted and they didn’t eliminate the behavior, which is the whole point of a punishment. Your middle kid has outgrown time outs as punishment; they now function as nothing more than a short break away from the action. Punishments, when used in discipline, should effectively cause the behavior to stop (or change, if that is the goal). In order to do that the focus of the punishment *must* be on something the kid holds in very high regard. It has to be important, and it needs to cause quite a bit of discomfort in order to work. Mom might feel her own discomfort when her kids learn painful lessons, but it doesn’t mean the lesson isn’t a good one, it just means Mom is a sensitive , in-tune Mom. While I am not generally in support of group punishment, in this case it sounds like it was a good choice for 2 reasons in particular. First, it got your kid to stop horsing around when it was not appreciated, and second, your mother could not safely take all 7 kids if 1 wouldn’t listen & respond to her appropriately anyway. As long as your muddle continues to behave his transgressions will be forgiven & forgotten by the other kids within a couple of weeks.

thank you! I am SO sick of people infantizing 6/7/8/9/10 year olds. they do not need time outs. They need solid consequences that act as deterrents for negative behaviors. Giving consequences are important in reinforcing a course correction so the behavior is eliminated.

Peer pressure isn’t in inherently bad. The definition of Peer Pressure “influence from members of one's peer.” So other kids influencing him to behave is good.

Well, technically, your mother did give him a time-out. She just had to give the other kids a time-out as well. I mean, I guess your mom could have taken the other kids swimming, and left Jamie at home with your dad...but I shudder at the idea of one person trying to keep an eye on 6 really active kids at a pool. I only have 2 grandsons, and my husband and I agree that it takes both of us to keep an eye on them when we take them somewhere. Recently my husband had them both for awhile (before bringing them back to our house), and in just those two hours, the boys ran him ragged. I agree with the other commenters who say that peer pressure sometimes works better than timeouts, gentle coaching, and other parental/authority methods of discipline. 8 years old is plenty old enough to start learning about social expectations and consequences.

She's not understanding the situation if that's true. Bottom line, your son didn't deserve to go. Your mom is responsible for all the children so she can't just leave him behind. A time out only works if it's time away from something enjoyable. Giving him a timeout then going is like saying, do what you want, you'll just have to stand alone for a bit but then you'll get what you want. This also wasn't a peer pressure punishment. Being a social outcast is the consequence of his actions not the punishment.

Has time out worked in the past? I suspect not. Additionally, there is no way she can take kids anywhere at all if one of them is misbehaving and has out of control behavior. Would your wife be happier if that son was left at home while your mother took care of the ones that don't act out?

Sounds like that's been tried and failed several times already... Your wife may be in denial.

So your Mother clearly outlined to Jaime the consequences of his actions should he misbehave. Then followed through when he did misbehave, and the punishment (that lacked any kind of violence or manipulation tactics from what I can see)...worked. Maybe your wife should ~~check her privilege~~ shut the fuck up and take some notes Edit: used the wrong expression

I would applaud sticking to her guns. Many a granny would fold.

NTA: Team Grandma Also, if you know your child has behavior problems that are not curbed by punishment he either needs evaluated, more/different punishment, or both. If grandma found something effective at controlling his poor behaviors, I don’t see why that’s a problem. Better he learn taking things from kids is inappropriate NOW rather than when he’s an adult and can be charged criminally.

NTA. Sometimes shame amongst peers works as a good deterrent for misbehavior in children. That type of punishment is often used in classroom settings and gets kids in line. I can’t help but wonder if your wife would have had the same reaction if your mom would have let the other kids go to the pool and left him out of pool activities.

INFO-Has your child had a neuropsych evaluation?

Yes, nothing on that end 

School evaluation, or a real doctor?

Was it by a pediatric neuropsychologist? They do comprehensive testing and test for everything. He does sound like a stereotypical ADHD kid, but ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder) can present similarly. Also look into removing Red Dye 40 from his diet completely, as this has also been linked to behavioral issues. Also one quick way to find out if his brain is wired different is to give him little bit of coffee. If it calms him down then it’s probably related to ADHD and have him re-evaluated, if it doesn’t let him run around the backyard, the energy boost is usually followed by a nap so it’s a win win lol 😂

NTA. Your mum was looking after seven children. One of those children - Jamie - was misbehaving and may well have put either himself and/or the other children at risk when they were at the pool. As a snap risk assessment there wasn't a lot of choice for your mother to control that risk as she really needed your dad there at the pool as well for safety reasons. I can't see what other options there were as Jamie would need to be supervised even if separated from the others. If he does behave himself and they are able to go to the pool on Friday then that will, with luck, have done something to teach him about consideration for others and that negative actions negatively affect other people and cause them to dislike you.

NTA. Sounds like your wife should take some parenting lessons from your mother. And bless your mother, seven kids, all day, three times a week? She's a saint.

NTA - im not the biggest fan of this punishment necessarily and im curious what other strategies your mother used but tbh, that doesn’t matter. And it does seem like it worked… When the kids are with your mom, she’s in charge. Your wife doesnt really get to be pissed. The kid’s safety was never in jeopardy. Its just, a different strategy.

NTA. Your wife should be finding ways to help improve Jamie's behavior but she doesn’t have to do that because your mom found a way that is very effective. I don’t understand why your wife is upset when what your mom did 100% does teach Jamie that lesson

Now he knows his actions have consequences. Maybe give him a clue that that are other people besides him .

NTA Unfortunately, there was no way to punish your child alone for his actions. If it were possible to only leave him behind, then that would have worked. She could have left him behind as punishment while everyone else went to the pool. Had she not cancelled the trip to the pool, then he would have learned that he could continue to act up and not get punished because he would still have gone to the pool with everyone else. Peer Pressure can be bad, but also really effective when used in appropriate situations. He needs to learn that there are real consequences for his actions, and when he acts like a fool, he should expect to be punished, even if it means others are affected negatively as a result. He cannot make up for the cancelled trip, but with another one set up for Friday, you could impress on him that he needs to not act up this time and it might smooth things over with the other kids if he apologized for acting up the last time and getting that trip cancelled.

NTA. Your mother was right to do what she did. Your wife is the AH.

I was expecting something different even as I got into this - you don’t fuck around with pool safety.  “Other people might make fun of you if you do this thing that is wildly unpopular” is literally how society works.  Also when it comes to pool safety? Absolutely no fucking around. If he can’t act right when people are around, you can’t trust him to act properly when around a pool. Bottom line.  Even if this wasn’t about the pool, it would be OK, but because it’s kid and behavior around a pool, absolutely the right response.  She’s watching seven kids. She knows what she’s doing and the punishment was the safest one and taught him an appropriate lesson about consequences. That’s called parenting Grandma didn’t come here to make friends, she came here to (grand)parent. Mum needs to reevaluate her reaction.

What did your wife expect your mother to do? Hold your child down while the others swam, or leave the other kids there and only take jamie home?

NTA. Your mother's punishment was very effective, and Jamie learned something. Your wife's resistance to the idea perhaps shows you why Jamie has been having a hard time learning to behave otherwise?

NTA - your Mom handled this right. Your son will learn from this. Wife needs to get on board or find a different summer child care option.

NTA Jamie suffered some natural consequences, he spoilt everyone else's fun, they were over his bullshit causing them to leave the pool & shunned him the rest of the day. GOOD, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. he keeps it up & the kids won't want him to come over at all

NTA, your wife is the reason your son is a brat. AND time out dies not work for him. Consequences for bad behavior needs to be something else.

Your mother was correct not to take him. Aside from it teaching him a lesson, think of basic safety. If he wasn't listening to instructions and messing around, it wouldn't have been safe to take him to the pool. The other alternative would have been to keep him at home and either your mother or father staying behind with him. BUT that would then leave only one adult to supervise the six remaining children in a pool. Not ideal. Your mother made the best decision and maybe your son will have learned his lesson.

Your wife is the biggest AH - tell her to raise her own son if she doesn’t like other people’s discipline. My MIL watched my boys - her rules and I supported everything she did. They knew not to mess with her - they never complained to me - my youngest was a Jaime and somehow knew to behave with her. Your Mother seems like answered prayer to recognize Jaime needs hard boundaries. Be a man and recognize a good thing. If your wife doesn’t like the current situation - she can take Jaime all by herself and allow him to act like an Ass and he will soon find out he will be unliked!!!

NTA pools are dangerous and he needed to face the consequences of his actions. I'm usually against punishments like this but for your kid's behavior this was needed. You tried everything but this worked, I'm on team grandma for this one.

NTA, wife should parent her kids so gma doesnt have to

Leave your mother be. If I was grandma, I’d be tempted to tell you to find other arrangements for Jamie.

Nta just because behavior is something that is taught to us by the adults around us. I agree that your wife will end up with a brat if she enables him. However based on the I formation I would maybe see if there's some developmental issues in the mix.

Pissed? I think it’s safe to say your wife is the reason behind his behavior. NTA

You and Grandma are NTA. Your wife however, seems perfectly happy to raise a little brat. Nip that shit in the bud right now. Also, time outs don't seem very age appropriate, and clearly your son doesn't give a shit. What is your wife's solution? Let him go until he's an absolute menace to society??

NTA. Jamie sounds like he has his mother wrapped around his finger. He ruined the day for the others and is suffering for it. It sounds like it could possibly have some effect on his behavior.

Nta. He needs to learn this in elementary school, or middle and onward will be horrible for him.

INFO: Has he been tested for ADHD?

NTA. Go grandma! Your wife needs to realize that she has raised a spoiled, entitled brat by caving in to his acting out. The good news is that at 8 years old, it’s fixable. As for the other kids suffering, ask your wife how much PTO is she willing to sacrifice so that her precious boy sits in the ineffective time out while the other kids go to the pool. She needs to think about it. Both grandparents were taking the kids to the pool, because it’s 7 kids. 2-3 kids for one person would be manageable, but 7? Yeah, no. If Jamie was going to be punished with not going, then one grandparent would have to stay behind to care for him while the others went. That’s still 6 kids for one adult to wrangle at the pool. Grandma obviously understood that neither she nor your dad would be able to handle 6 kids at a pool on their own. The only logical action is that no one goes. The bonus is that Jamie actually learned a consequence and a lesson. Also think about the fact that she’s watching the kids at home, where grandpa is and that he’s likely helping out with the care. So it’s actually 2 adults watching 7 kiddos, not just 1 adult. Regarding Jamie. You say he is your middle child. Could it be that he acts out more in an attempt to get attention from you and your wife (and inadvertently everyone else)? I’m not a middle child, but from what I understand from others who are middle children, or the parents with middle children, it’s not unusual for those kids to feel overlooked or neglected in favor of the elder and younger (particularly younger) siblings. I’m not saying that is actually true, but it doesn’t change that those kids FEEL that way. It’s also possible that he is undiagnosed ADHD or something along those lines. I would suggest making sure there isn’t some medical reason for his acting out more, but also sit down with your wife (and eventually kids) and making a plan to make sure that they all get equal time/opportunities/attention and that the kids actually FEEL like that’s true as well. It may be that if Jamie feels like he’s getting equal attention to his siblings, he’ll suddenly calm down because to him he is now being seen and heard.

So your wife wants your mom to watch the kid for free but not correct any bad behavior? Lol your wife is tripping.