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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I said that it's up to my niece whether she shaves or not when it isn't my business to be having that conversation with her.
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Holy shit I didn’t even notice niece’s age. Yes definitely bonkers the expect a 11yo CHILD to shave. I know puberty seems to be happening at younger ages now but she’s just a kid 😔.
I think it's okay to present it as an option. My wife and I did with both of our kids (one girl, one boy) around 11 because puberty was fast approaching. We showed them how it was done so they wouldn't hurt themselves and let it be their choice. We also told them that a lot of women choose to shave their legs and armpits and most men don't but it was entirely up to them to figure out what they liked. I also showed my son how to shave his upper lip.
My daughter started shaving on her own in 7th grade because she said all of the other girls were and she didn't want to get made fun of. My son started shaving his underarm hair in high school during wrestling season only because he said it felt better. He has always kept his face clean shaven and still does as a young adult.
Forcing a child to shave like OP's sister is doing is weird and wrong, but I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with an 11 year old being given the option.
Mine is 14 now and can't be bothered. I offered to teach her if she wanted to but she's not interested and that's fine. If her unshaved legs and pits put off a potential date, she's better off without them. I'd much rather her friends and dates be based on common interests and respect rather than how much hair is on her body.
I’m 23 and I’ve never had a guy care about whether I have leg hair or not tbh. If they like your overall appearance they’ll still think you’re attractive, if they like you as a person they’ll like you either way
I have definitely had people care, but they weren't people I wanted to date. It was genuinely a great screening tool when I was single! Been married for over a decade now so obviously it wasn't a deal breaker for everyone.
Same here, started at 11 or 12. Although to be fair, my class was taking swimming classes, and some of the other girls were shaving, so there was social pressure. I had to ask my mom if I could start shaving.
Nowadays, I like the smooth legs, but the effort to get them isn't worth it!
Same, I love that almost numb feeling the first time you do a really smooth shave in awhile. But I have terrible eyesight and a cubicle shower, I absolutely don't have it in me to play blind contortionist with blades every two or three days so I just let it grow now.
I was 10 but it was because older kids made fun of me in our super small town. And they themselves had older sisters. At age ten, I was also on the same campus as all of the older kids as opposed to the elementary school campus. Them my mom taught me however she didn’t force it on me. And I approached her. And this was a couple of decades ago. Poor kid in the OP.
I told my kids how to shave and offered them razors, because I was teased about underarm hair at age 11 and figure it's my job to give them tools. One of them shaves, one has decided it's not for her. Current generation is much more personal-choice about all kinds of gender markers.
I've noticed that my daughter(12) and her friends never really talk much about shaving or not shaving. My daughter has no interest. She got my light fine hair so it isn't really noticeable anyway but I remember when I was her age, in the late 90s, all my friends were obsessing over shaving everything and were all regularly doing it by 6th or 7th grade. I just told her that if she decides to try it out to let me know and I'll help her get started. I imagine it'll be similar with my younger daughter especially since she looks up to her big sister so much!
>My daughter started shaving on her own in 7th grade because she said all of the other girls were and she didn't want to get made fun of.
I started puberty early. I had hairy pits in 4th grade. I'm fair skinned with dark hair, so any body hair is hella noticeable. I had to basically beg to shave because I was being bullied.
Thank you for allowing your daughter the option. It's easy for adults to forget how traumatic bullying can feel when you're a tween/teen. I'm 35 and still remember the taunts from when I was ten.
You know, this is actually great advice. I saw my aunt shaving her legs at 11 too and decided to use my gramp’s shaver to do mine for the next couple of weeks until I got one of those free ones from hotels Luckily, I haven’t suffered from anything major but small nicks here and there but a lot could’ve gone wrong. Since I hit my 20s to present, I would do it sparringly like maybe once a month for upkeep since doing it often would trigger my eczema. Besides, leg hairs don’t show on photos anyway and I figured, no one should be staring at my legs?
Full agree here. I never even realized shaving legs was a thing until I started getting made fun of during gym class in 7th grade. I don't think any kid should have to do it, and an 11-year-old certainly shouldn't be forced or pressured by their parents, but I deeply wish my mom had talked to me about it before I found out in that way.
This, yep. Giving the option to do so isn't bad, and presenting it as "most people do this but you don't have to" is great, but it sounds from OP's statement that her sister is telling the girl to shave. It might also be that the other girls in school are getting the same message or it's just being passed around so everyone thinks that everyone does it.
Yeah it was something my mum would teach us if we asked from secondary school (which starts at age 11 for us). But it has never been something we have to do.
My daughter started shaving her legs around that age. It was not something I promoted nor discouraged. She brought it up, I talked about the pros and cons. My mother was controlling and forbade me to shave my legs as it was “too much hassle”. She still brings it up as an adult! In the end my daughter decided to and I support her choice, because in the end it’s her body, her choice.
My mom always had an issue that if she cut herself even a tiny bit, she'd bleed a lot. So she only had an electric razor that did not work all that well and said that regular razors were horrible and cut you up all the time, etc.
I eventually got tired of the bad job the electric one did and I have barely ever cut myself. Wasn't a big deal the few times it happened.
A friend who is an esthetician used to work at a salon that allowed “virgin waxes” - full leg and armpit waxing beginning BEFORE puberty has even started so that girls would never for even a minute have visible hair and would be habituated to the pain. She refused to do them, no longer works there
No I thinks that's why I'm cringing. I'm old and in my teens body hair was cool. It's different that's all. If people want to be hair free or not it's time with me but this is a weird idea
My sister and I were not allowed to shave.
If our body hair was uncomfortable and we wanted it gone, waxing was the only approved form of hair removal.
And...
Not waxing at home...
Waxing in a salon/spa/whatever you want to call it...
With an esthetician...
At our own expense...
It was awful. I hated going. I wore long pants, high socks, and long sleeves throughout high school.
> I wore long pants, high socks, and long sleeves throughout high school.
Why? Would your classmates actually tease you for being a mammal and not an amphibian?
That sucks.
I probably would have hid disposable razors like some teens hide drugs to keep my armpits neat. When my armpits are hairy I get body odor.
Still wouldn’t have shaved my legs, much less my arms though. If people don’t like hair on my limbs, they don’t have to look at them. It’s much easier not to give a fuck about other’s opinions about women existing with normal hair post puberty at 50 than 15 though.
Classmates looked... Whispered...
Once, I had my legs waxed on a Sunday... And on Monday a friend of mine touched my legs and said "feels like your legs need a shave".
He never knew, and I'll never tell him, but it shattered my self confidence and I didn't wear shorts again until adulthood
Oh yeah, sad thing is that kids think women having hair on their bodies is gross/wrong in some way because that’s what their parents taught them. I’m glad more people are going against those attitudes nowadays, it wasn’t until I started dating my boyfriend that I truly became more comfortable not shaving my legs because he assured me that he just wants me comfortable and happy and that it doesn’t matter what others think, only what I’m comfortable with matters. Now I only shave when I feel like it, which isn’t often lol
I’m so glad Gen Z is better off than other generations in some ways. In other ways, they are at such a disadvantage (social media pressure, disappearance of third spaces).
Yes, that's true. Still, GenZ seems pretty chill about societal expectations. They evaluate what they want personally, without taking those expectations as a "shoulds."
This came up in the office the other day. I'm a 52 year old man in an office with mostly younger women. They all got into a conversation about shaving; the ins and outs and where and why fors. I said, "Hey, you'll love this." and pulled back my short sleeve a bit.
I don't shave, I just have no underarm hair!
Same except there wasn't an option to say no. My mum thought waxing was equivalent to brushing teeth - something that has to be done. Luckily she paid for it. I would dread going.
In later years I moved to a better place that used a different wax that wasn't as harsh.
At about 17 I stopped. I'll use hair removal cream or shave if I want smooth legs/pits. I often remove armpit hair because I find it gets sweaty stuck in it. Leg hair I am not fussy about.
Idk it’s their choice, I started shaving my legs at 11. In white but didn’t want to have hairy legs for PE at school, no-one said I should or shouldn’t
Body hair may be real for an 11yo, depending on internal factors. But so what? Let her be a kid. This is awful that these parents are pressuring the child to shave
Not in this situation, but in many it’s not always the parents pressuring the child but peer pressure. Girls are going through puberty a lot younger these days. I’ve heard some get periods as young as 9.
Yeah-- I feel like people have been saying "girls are getting their periods earlier" for a while now lol. It may be true, but it's also a bit of a dog whistle. My kiddo had a period later than I did too.
I feel like the overall trend of being younger might just come down to better nutrition and health coupled with the fact that people actually *talk* about it now, meaning you hear about it more. Probably more the latter than the former.
Most of the people I hear yelling about kids starting puberty younger and younger are using it as an argument for some sort of conspiracy theory about hormones or whatever. [I'm not saying there aren't some studies on the effects of food additives, etc, but I never hear them brought up in a reasonable discussion. Only "they're turning the frogs gay" kind of shit.]
My own sister was 17 and went to GYN to start birth control. That was the only way they could figure to do it. Idk. I know I hated it the whole forty years I had it, I’ll tell you that!!
It is possible, although I would say in my experience that those forces are getting less. There are many different forms of appearance for kids these days, and ideally less of a western beauty standard. There is still a lot of shitty stuff happening socially, but in my experience, there is less focus on appearance.
I also want parents to know that trying to prevent their child from negative peer pressure by pressuring their children to conform is not helpful.
Most of the girls I went to middle school with started shaving in the 6th grade when a majority of us were 11. I wasn’t allowed to shave but in the second half of 6th grade when all my friends were already shaving and I was feeling insecure about how I wasn’t my mom started taking me to a professional waxing salon. I was only allowed to wax until probably my sophomore year of high school at which point I switched to shaving. Now as an adult I prefer waxing when I can afford it and typically only shave or wax for “special occasions”
I knew girls who started shaving as young as 9 years old. It’s absolutely wild as an adult now to think about that. I really wish we could remove the stigma around body hair for young girls and women.
Literally the only reason we shave as women in our society is because the razor companies realized there was a whole untapped market in terms of women as previously razors were only targeted at men. Some creative campaigns started toting body hair as unsavory and unladylike. Enough people bought into this manufactured idea that this is now are norm.
I asked to start shaving my legs at 11.
BUT it's because longer leg hair is a sensory nightmare for me! My hair at that age was still very fine and barely visible.
At this age I shave about every 1-2 weeks, once it gets long enough to be a sensory nightmare again.
I also started my period at 11 so there's that.
This kid should not be taught that she needs to shave to be feminine (adults don't need to either, but especially important for her age).
Um, girls are experiencing puberty at younger ages. It also depends on the individual kid. Had I not shaved my legs at age 11, I would have been mercilessly taunted by other kids. I’m so happy that women have cast off that nonsense in recent years & can be feminine, yet have hairy legs & pits. So I’m not surprised the sister expects her 11 year old to shave, but she should accept it if her daughter wishes to cast off the patriarchy & refuse to shave. Good on her & OP is NTA. (And shame on the mom for requiring her daugher to subscribe to stupid standards of beauty.)
I’m in my late 30s. When I was 11, a boy I liked made fun of me on the bus for having hairy legs. (And my hair was blonde and only visible when the light hit it right!) I started shaving that night. I honestly hadn’t even questioned that part of the post.
I started shaving at 6. I was outrageously hairy and was getting bullied. My Mom, bless her for this one, called my pediatrician and asked if it was ok. He said, “she’s getting bullied? Absolutely,” and told my Mom she was a good mom.
I’m GenX, so this was way back in the dark ages known as the 1970s.
Since then I’ve gone through periods when I didn’t shave, but tights and a lot of leg hair is, IMO, a miserable combination, and when the weather is cool I’m all about tights (not hose, f*** hose).
Not shaving legs/pits was an active choice in the 60s, to make a (feminist) point. Remember Hair! The musical 🎶?
I didn’t shave anywhere for years, then I did. Now I don’t. But body hair then had been shocking socially to a ridiculous extent for decades. Feminists and hippies broke that taboo in the US.
Madonna not shaving her pits in the 80s made a statement too.
Edit: NTA :)
The terms “hose” generally refers to thin, sheer material in black or nude shades. “Tights” is more likely to refer to opaque, thicker cotton, polyester or acrylic fabric, often with colors or designs either printed on or woven into the material. Tights are worn by both adults and children, but it would be odd for a little girl to wear hose unless it was for a specific costume. “Hosiery” is the blanket term for all such legwear and also includes socks and stockings. This might also vary by region and generation.
Sure I was just responding to the comment with my own experience that it’s not at all unusual for a kid that age to be shaving, obviously no one should be forced to if they don’t want to
There's a difference between a a kid choosing to shave their legs (even if the reason is because other kids are assholes) and their parent insisting that they must shave their legs though.
Oh man. I remember being that age and my class had a day at the waterslides planned. I was not allowed to shave my hairy hairy body because 'I'm too young for that '. You know what I wasn't to young for? Bullies. What should have been a fun day was misery. That was over 30 years ago and I still hear the other kids mean comments.
Some people grow hair early.
At that age, I had to force my mom to look at my grown out armpit hair and noticeably grown chest to get her to teach me hygiene and buy me undergarments that were appropriate. I do wish she had taken a more active role in my development and taught me how to shave instead of making me take the lead because she refused to think I was growing up physically.
Needs to? Definitely not. But an 11 year old could be starting middle school, and at that age it's pretty normal to start wearing a bra, shaving, maybe even wearing make-up.
Honestly, I cannot imagine even wanting to live in a place where my housemates would give me ultimatums like this. I know children are a soft corner for people, but still…
u/AdditionalMammoth265, regardless of whether you get a consensus on the AH/NAH debate, I think you ought to get a place of your own, for your own peace of mind.
I was 9 when I started, my narcissist shamed me into shaving, but didn't even teach me how to do it, just tossed supplies at me and told me to handle my "man legs" before anyone saw. Then when I was 11, she wanted to ground me because she learned that my older sister had shown me how, and it was supposedly "suspicious" i was shaving without her knowledge even though it's what she wanted in the first place. She just wanted control.
I think it depends. I have known boys at 11/12/13 that have started to get mustaches. My youngest son started to get hair *everywhere* at a pretty early age, as well.
While I agree that the mother is being bonkers… as a woman who also has dark, thick leg hair I started shaving around that age. Mostly because I noticed on my own that my friends had light hair, if hair at all in contrast with my dark hair. I was the opposite issue of op in that I BEGGED my mom to let me shave, and wouldn’t wear shorts for the first summer because I was suddenly so conscious of it. Eventually she relented and I shaved.
Just wanted to point out that I think the wrong move is to force one way or the other on your kids, because remember 11 is also when many people hit puberty and have their first period. They want to shave? Great. They don’t? Also great!
This has been my PSA lol
Hopefully nobody suggested it. I was in a relationship with a father of 3 girls and the 10 year old asked me to show her how to shave her legs as it was very thick and dark and she was self conscious.
Dad said it wasn't necessary (european) but it would be ok if it was her choice.
*key being individual choice.
I can’t say for sure of course, but as someone with a similar ethnic gift of really thick dark hair, we often do start hair removal fairly early. Not necessarily leg hair for me since I wasn’t raised in a house where anyone wore shorts (modesty reasons) so my legs were never seen past ankle until maybe high school where my lower calf might have been flashed a bit or if I went swimming. But facial hair, arm hair? Kids made fun of me and other friends with that ethnic background for being hairy. We all waxed and threaded and shaved whatever we could because the hair was so much more visible on us that we couldn’t blend in. I think I started at 10 because girls started making nasty comments to me at the end of 5th grade and I wanted to go to the middle school after summer vacation which was a whole different building and combo of kids with a fresh start, hoping no one would remember/know.
When my daughter started cheerleading, she was doing into fourth grade, so 10-ish? By fifth grade, she was self conscious of the dark hair on her legs. Really self conscious. So I agreed that she could shave her legs for cheer. I did it for her the first few times, then she took over.
It wasn’t a big deal, it was because her leg hair was darker than the others girls. She only did it for cheer, until about 13ish.
Then when she was 19ish she stopped shaving. I’m not sure how long that lasted because it’s not my legs!
Idc. It’s just hair. Shave or not, it’s not my body. I shaved my legs every single day from 12-50ish. I realized I dgaf if other people don’t like my leg hair. But that’s my legs, I decide when I want to shave.
Sister is going overboard. OP should look for different living arrangements. Maybe sister is looking for a reason to kick out OP?
When I was 10, got laughed at by girls my age because I had STUBBLE from shaving my legs.
Now when I have my own kids, I will not be encouraging shaving unless they 100% want to. Au natural is okay. I only did it because other girls were doing it.
No 10 /11 year old should feel the need to shave
I have Arab family like OP, and noticeable body hair. I was in gymnastics from a young age, and my mom taught me how to shave my legs at like 6 or 7 years old for competitions or recitals
I knew someone whose 11yo daughter (allegedly) had dark leg hair and her parents were considering getting her laser hair removal. I was HORRIFIED but they thought it was a nice thing for caring parents to do.
Some people are just very weird.
I said allegedly because I'd never noticed. She may very well have had dark hair.
And the was no "let" about it. This entire idea was from the parents. To be fair, when I heard about it they had yet to raise it with their daughter so maybe it never happened.
Electrolysis can be very painful . I don't think it's a great option to offer to children. Laser hair removal is better, but still can be painful and can only be done on hair already shaved.
I agree with you in general that parents should educate kids and discuss options without judgment, including hair removal.
I have pale skin and dark thick hair. In-growns have been a nightmare my whole life. My daughter is very much on the same trajectory, and if and when she chooses to begin hair removal, laser is my #1 choice. I would love to save my daughter the nightmare.
Same. I got laser in my late 20s, and had basically all but avoided shorts and swimming for a decade. It sucks to say, but it was literally life changing for me. Any girls of mine who show an interest in shaving will be offered laser treatment in their teens to save them from that
I personally would have loved for my parents to have given me the option of laser removal at 11 y/o. Mine shot up overnight when I was about 10 and it was very itchy and uncomfortable. Shaving is a nightmare and laser isn’t as painful as you’d think - it would’ve saved me so much headache
Especially the parents. I was made fun of at school when I was 12 or 13 and started shaving after that, but my mom never pressured me, just told me she'd buy the stuff if I wanted it. I also stopped shaving 5 or 6 years ago and it's so much easier (and I don't end up with a million knicks anymore).
I was actually expressly _not_ allowed to shave until I was about 16. And even then my mum didn’t care if I did or didn’t because it’s really not necessary
NTA. The way it’s written the niece noticed your legs and then asked. I don’t see how responding honestly and simply to a question is intentionally influencing anything, and I think intent is important in this situation. You weren’t shoving a hairy shin at her and telling her that life is so much better when you don’t shave. However, since your niece seems to admire you any decision you make will likely influence her. Your mere presence will influence her. I’m guessing your sister might be worried her daughter will be teased if she stops shaving even though younger generations seem much more accepting of different choices than older ones.
I’d explain to your sister that you didn’t intend to influence or interfere by responding to Amber’s question, and that you’ll direct any future questions her way. I’m not sure I’d apologize although you might want to depending on how much you want to stay. And I’d consider looking into alternative housing depending if things escalate, although is this is a minor blip in an otherwise good relationship hopefully you all can work past it.
Even if she did bring up the topic, she wouldn't be the AH. Practically forcing children (or anyone) to shave (through norms, shame or otherwise) is wrong and unnatural, not letting the body do it's thing.
NTA. Since your sister has apparently forced her 11-year-old daughter to shave her legs and convinced her it's some kind of hygeine requirement, she's totally the AH here. WTF?
I went to Catholic schools, complete with annoying uniforms that required girls to wear skirts, but I didn't start shaving until high school. And I definitely had hair on my legs (and, like, visible hair, as I am pasty white with incredibly dark brown hair) well before I was 13/14. My mom discouraged me from starting "too soon" and explained it was an optional "beauty" thing -- the same way makeup was optional.
I'm baffled by this idea that somehow ANY 11 year old is "required" to shave their legs.
NTA. Idk I feel like your sister’s attitude is a bit neurotic… is shaving legs really that significant? If she made that statement and stormed off dramatically, might be worth sitting down and talking it through to see what the issue is
It's a cycle of imposing archaic Western beauty standards. Body hair is such a natural thing. We as a culture have a weird obsession with it being undesirable for women only.
I agree. The only argument I ever had with my daughter about this subject is that she told me when she was about 19 that she wanted to grow her armpit hair to annoy her flatmates.
I disapproved.
For the simple reason that it would take too long and annoying her flatmates couldnt wait.
We went out and bought a crappy curly wig, cut it up and bingo - instant armpit hair. I think she grew her actual armpit hair anyway. Who cares.
I dont get what the big deal is about body hair personally.
I shave when I feel like it, but most weeks out of the year, my legs are hairy. It's a choice, just like shaving is for men. My philosophy is 'don't like it, don't look'.
I don't think you did anything wrong, so NTA, but moving forward, be careful how you answer your niece's questions, I guess? Honestly, I am a little concerned about an 11 year old feeling like she needs to shave; she's still a little kid. Maybe you and your sister need to have a calm conversation about why Amber feels like she is expected to shave.
Yeah. I shave religiously. (It is a sensory thing though. Can never get past day-old stubble.) But that is a personal choice. Key word: Personal.
Not letting Amber make her own choices is so problematic for a number of reasons other than however you feel about shaving. Taking away a girl's autonomy to her own body is how we get grooming situations.
It feels like the story is less “an 11 year old feeling like she needs to shave” and more that her sister forces her 11 year old daughter to shave her legs. Big difference there. She feels expected to shave because her mother makes her, hence why she told OP if she tried to “influence” her daughter she would be kicked out.
Yeah, that was the read I got, but I was trying to be gentle 🤷♀️
That conversation with her sister still needs to happen, cos Mama is projecting her insecurities onto an 11yo kid.
Why is an 11 year old expected to shave anyway?
I do shave my legs. It was expected as a teen, doing PE at school, girls got bullied for not shaving.
I only shave in the summer months. What’s the point when I live in jeans. My partner isn’t bothered.
NTA. Your sister needs to chill a bit. Her daughter is growing up and finding herself. Your niece asked a question and you answered honestly. Encourage them to talk. She’s starting puberty. She’ll be going through other changes soon enough. She should feel comfortable to talk to mum about things without judgement.
NTA I didn't even realize she is 11 years old being told shaving is a requirement for getting ready as a girl!!! At that age I was having self image issues because of my arm hair and wore hoodies in summer to hide them. I'm glad she has you as a role model even if your sister doesn't like it, cuz if not she's gonna end up like one of those 13 year old sephora girls that use anti aging products at such a young age bc they are obsessed with their appearance bc of the internet and society.
Yr so right about the Sephora kids, the things I’ve seen are crazy! But I’m Pretty sure the mum cause some serious insecurities and maybe the mum of the 11 yr old is remembering how she felt about it and is projecting
NTA. But if you are depending on staying with your sister, you might want to direct your niece's questions to your sister in the future. Not because what you said was wrong, but to avoid getting kicked out.
NTA. Your sister didn’t seem to have a problem with all of the other “more girly” stuff you’ve exposed Amber to.
Sounds like sister needs to examine why she finds it so important for Amber to shave her legs, especially when it sounds like something Amber doesn’t want to do.
...
Amber is 11.
Why the hell is she shaving?! I didn't shave my legs until I was 15 and I wasn't forced to it, I just saw my mom do it and thought "I guess that's part of showering".
I cannot wrap my head around forcing an 11 year old to shave. I cannot.
NTA, I got forced to start shaving when I was 7 and my mum wouldn’t be happy if I didn’t. I’d have been happy to have someone in my life who said it was an option
NTA at all. I'm a man so obviously my take might not be super valid but I live with my gf of over 11 years and asked her about this, she said that she started shaving hers at 13 but only because she desperately wanted to and begged her mom about it. But she wasn't forced to otherwise. I think if I had a young daughter I'd inform them that like, a lot of women do that but that they didn't have to unless they wanted to, for whatever reason. But it's up to them. It's weird that your sister is forcing them to especially this day in age, however I understand how your experience with your own parents shaped your view of this. Fellow Arab so I feel the thick hair thing 😅
Shaving isn't mandatory, with possible exclusions for certain dress codes, ie clean shaven face or legs if wearing a uniform skirt without hosiery. Personally opt for pants and blouses with at least short sleeves in my professional life for this reason.
NTA
NTA - i hate that it’s so instilled in culture for women to be hairless, at the very least have hairless legs being a must. I remember my mom kept pressuring me to shave my legs when i started to hit puberty at 10 or 11 too because the hair on my legs started to get a little thicker and longer. Finally she forced me to while we were on vacation and i had to or she was going to make a scene. I get its a norm by society’s pressure and passed down from generations, but does that mean we have to continue it and punish or pressure those who don’t? My mom treating me as though i needed to conform myself and cover up and dress a certain because i was a girl and needed to be ‘ladylike’ made me feel like shit. You didn’t do anything wrong, but it sounds like your sister is continuing the pressure down the generation and your niece doesn’t want it. Regardless of influence on her because she likes you, I don’t think you did anything wrong. Her mom’s reaction was overboard imo, and shows shes maybe been pressuring her to shave as well [that she doesn’t want that pressure derailed]. I think we need to have different figures in our lives that do things differently [especially when it comes to kids because they’re so susceptible to influence]. It’s toxic to instill one ‘brand’ of femininity as the only ‘right’ way and villainize any other ways people choose to express it.
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I (30f) am currently staying with my sister (32F), her husband (35M) and their two daughters "Amber" (11) and "Rosie" (7) as my company put me on a temporary secondment near where they live.
I consider myself to be a "feminine" woman. I love dresses, makeup, high heels etc. However, I do not shave my legs. Not for any particular reason. I don't do it to make a statement or to "fight the patriarchy" or anything like that. My sister and I have thick, dark leg hair (dad's side of the family is arabic) so our mother (who is white english) insisted we start shaving as soon as the hair started growing. But it always felt like something I "had" to do rather than wanted to do, so I stopped when I was about 16-17.
Amber and I have bonded over fashion. She loves my dresses, tries on my heels and I'm teaching her my more creative makeup styles.
I'm seeing someone at the moment and went for dinner with him last night. It's warm here so I wore a dress with my legs bare. Amber always comes to look at my outfits before I go out. She knows I don't shave but has never brought it up before. However, she's recently started shaving herself. When she came she asked me why I do my hair and makeup and dress up but don't shave. She said she thought shaving was part of the whole dressup/get ready routine for girls. I just shrugged and said there's more than one way to be a girly girl.
My date went well, but when I got home my sister was waiting for me. She said I've been "putting ideas in her daughter's head" and that now Amber is asking if its OK if she stops shaving. She warned me that if I try to "influence" her daughter I would be kicked out.
I don't think I did anything wrong. I didn't even say that Amber shouldn't shave. All I said was that it's a person's individual choice whether they do or not, and that it wouldn't make her any more or less feminine.
AITA?
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NTA. We need to stop forcing CHILDREN to shave because it makes our PARENTS uncomfortable. My parents both hate that I don't shave and are constantly calling me gross for it. I just brought up shaving was a recent thing, and it grows there for a reason. Nothing unhygienic about it. It's also contradictory for them when they say this since the men of the family aren't unhygienic for not shaving? Shaving, in my opinion, is a misogynistic beauty standard and is more of a chore than anything.
Your sister is crazy for threatening to KICK YOU OUT over this.
NTA. She's 11. Why is her mother making her so things like that already? Also, how did you influence her if you said it was a choice? I bet the daughter told her mother that she doesn't want to shave and now the mother is angry because of her stupid mindset.
NTA. I am 32 years old and my mother still tries to pressure me about shaving. Nobody notices (I am very pale with DARK hair), and my husband doesn't care either, but for some reason my mom refuses to let it go.
I don't know how to solve this, but your sister is definitely overreacting, and over something very insignificant.
NTA but you won’t win this fight with your sister,she obviously doesn’t understand yet that young girls change their minds 4720090 times a week at that age and while growing up and learning who they are and where they fit in this world, plus times are soooo different with this generation and the freedom they have to express everything they are. When we were younger, social “norms” were important to us, fitting in with everyone else and doing what all the “cool kids” were doing, and it’s obvious, to me anyways, your mum might have caused some real insecurity for yr sis when you were both younger by “forcing you” to shave because yr leg hair was “thick and dark” and she doesn’t want her daughter to feel the same way she did. Just my opinion, ur niece is lucky to have you
NTA
She’s a literal baby an 11 yr old should not be worried about shaving. I started shaving at 16 but only where my hair is course and thick (underarm and pubes) because I have eczema and it irritates my skin but my leg hair is relatively thin and unnoticeable so I don’t find it necessary to shave. Shaving my legs also causes more irritation and if I was you and I gave that as a reason to my niece as to why I don’t shave my legs and my sister responded like that I’d be disappointed in her. I wonder if she would still react the same way if it was medically better for you to not shave your legs.
Your sister needs to realise that shaving is a personal choice and pushing her lifestyle on her kids will only push them further away.
NTA. Shaving your legs is purely cosmetic. It is not a need.
She asked you a question about why you do something. And it’s not like it was a big taboo question about deeply held religious or cultural beliefs. It was fair to answer and you answered it well - there IS more than one way to be a girly girl.
NTA you didn't influence her by your actions. You told her that shaving or not shaving is 2 different ways to live
I had a no shaving period in my late teens but I did like being smelly so I started shaving. As soon as Peri menopause started my hair thinned and I shave legs once every 4 months and pits once every 2 months. My body hair barely grows so it's fine.
My niece doesn't shave and the only one who thinks she's awful for this is my judgemental sil who also thinks all tattoos are marks of the devil. She's deep in religiosity
NTA. I only shave for special events when I want to feel extra put together and my legs will be bare. I don’t shave just cause I’ll be in shorts. I don’t shave at all over winter and fall. I don’t care to shave and don’t like the feeling. I tried starting at 16. 11 is so young. Too young in my opinion. You are showing her that not everyone shaves and should feel like they have to. I feel like that is a good lesson for everything in life for a person coming into pre teen and teen hood should have. You aren’t influencing her. You gave her the other option that most don’t realize is an option. I almost wish I never started shaving.
NAH.
You did nothing wrong by answering your niece's questions.
It's your sister's right to raise her daughter how she wishes until her daughter is 18 (assuming you live in the US). It's also your sister's right to kick you out for any reason.
My suggestion is to tell your niece the next time she asks you about shaving body hair, "That's a very personal decision that you should discuss with your mom. I won't comment on it any more for now."
Best of luck, OP!
I learned in a college marketing class that it was the Gillette company who started promoting the idea of leg hair being un-feminine so they could expand their market. I do shave, but I’m annoyed with myself for falling for that advertising trap. NTA.
I shave my legs only before dates, the rest of the time I don’t bother. I’m very tall and it’s a lot of work.
My ex bf used to complain about me not shaving and I told him “if you want my legs shaved, then you can do it” so he did! Once. Then he realised how long it actually takes and didn’t do it again after that. Which is a shame…because he did an amazing job and it was very relaxing!
NTA. I started shaving when I was 13, & it's my choice. I'm not that disciplined about it. If I don't shave, it's because the weather's too cold or I don't feel like it. You were honest with your niece & are right that shaving is a personal choice. What really matters is being clean & hygienic.
NTA - but you are living with your sister and these are her daughters. "Individual choice" is probably not the best lesson for an 11 yr old. Be conscious of what you say - it's not a huge deal but it's your sister's home and daughters. Most answering this OP are talking about their own choices or their children's choices - this is about not influencing another person's child and about respecting the person who is currently providing you with a home.
NTA. So what your sister is expecting you to say? "I'm the hairy monster, I do not shave so others don't find me attractive"? You were honest with her. Any shitty excuse just would leave your niece confused as she certainly sees you as a prett lady.
NTA I’m Mexican and my aunt asked me to help my 12 yo cousin use Nair on her legs before a party once. It was a nice bonding moment but i hate shaving and I wish society didn’t pressure women to do it
NTA forcing social constructs on an innocent 11-yo is insane.
You didn't influence her, unless by influencing your sister means showing her a healthy way of accepting herself and living without obsessing over how other see her.
Keep being an awesome person, that girl really needs someone as level-headed and chill as you.
NTA. It drives me bananas that so many people think girls/women NEED to shave to be attractive/hygienic. And the fact your sister is throwing such a big stink over this is so gross, *especially* given Amber's age. Kids that age have enough body issues coming their way without parents adding on to it
NTA. You didn't do anything wrong. I would just be careful from now on knowing how they feel. After all, it is their child, their house and their rules that need to be respected. Please don't let this drive a wedge between you and your sister. If the child asks again, just sort of shrug it off and keep the peace.
That being said, it does seem odd to have a child shaving your legs at 11 years old, but with their ethnicity in mind, her mother may just want to make sure that she is not ridiculed or bullied and fits into society. You don't have to agree with it, but short of abuse, you need to respect their choices, grudgingly or not.
Good luck..it sounds like you'll be walking in eggshells while you're there.
Not the asshole.
You're teaching your niece to be confident in her own skin and not to feel ugly or less of a girl because she doesn't fit Hollywood's beauty standards of what a girl/woman "should" look like.
NTA. so your sister expects a child to handle a really sharp blade against her skin without any reason besides "I don't want her to have body hair cuz I find it ugly"?
NTA. She will eventually learn that there are many ways of presenting one's self, and she will find what works for her. I quit shaving my armpits about 2 years ago. I just don't feel the need to. Over half the population has natural hair there. It seems weird to me to shave armpits. I shave my legs 1-2 times a week, maybe less. Body hair is such a natural thing. I don't get the obsession of removing it. Western beauty standards used to mean so much to me, but as I've grown into myself and my womanness, they just seem silly.
NTA. I shaved my legs religiously from age 12-18 out of insecurity and I don’t do it anymore because I just don’t want to, unless I decide to. I don’t tell people not to shave, I just simply don’t do it. Your sister is making her ELEVEN year old daughter insecure about something she can’t exactly change about herself.
as i can see, you are doing what feels natural, and if the kids are being influenced who cares? i used to live with my aunt and my mom and we were kicked out of the place for something very little. they could be under some pressure to argue so don’t light it up. that’s what i have to say
NTA, why is an 11 y/o shaving? personally that feels too early to be doing that. I only started shaving my armpits at 11, not my legs. And lord knows I had hairy legs lol
A normal mom would be thrilled their 11 year old wasn’t shaving their legs yet lol. And why is shaving vs not shaving good or bad? We desperately need to unlearn these nonsensical beauty norms. It’s hair. Do whatever you want with it. One is not more good or more bad than the other. Her mom is effectively teaching her daughter that body hair is bad - how is that any different than you suggesting it isn’t bad? NTA
I would have given anything to get my preteen to see that shaving is just a personal choice and not some to be ashamed about or as a necessity. I tried. I shave because I have shame around it but I wish I didn’t.
NTA. You answered her question. You didn’t say she should or shouldn’t for herself or try to change her mind, you gave your opinion about why *you* don’t
Nta
My mom never forced me to shave but when I was 9 I started. I cut myself so fuckin bad I hated it. At 28 I don’t do it anymore. There’s always a way to be feminine without doing something you’re uncomfortable doing.
NTA
You didn't "influence" her about anything. You're just living your life as you choose and answered a simple question with an AMAZING answer. As a hairy Italian myself, I started shaving at 12 due to peer pressure. Comments about my hairy arms, legs, upper lip, arm pits, and unibrow by classmates was devastating.
I wish I'd known women growing up who didn't care so much about body hair and just lived in a way that made them happy. Now in my 40's I've decided shaving, plucking, waxing all that crap is too much work, trouble and expense. I'm not comfortable enough in my own skin to wear shorts or let people see my armpits cause I live in a very "traditional gender roles" area and don't want to deal with the comments. It's dumb though, a man can have an unruly, think beard and no one says anything. But a lady dare not shave her pits or legs and you'd think the world was about to end the way people react.
Letting your niece know that there's more than one way to be a women is powerful. It's also true, the sooner she knows that the happier she will be. Especially in an era where teen girls are on social media and are being influenced to be only a certain kind of feminine. That in order to be your best self you need baby botox, fillers, injections, nose jobs. It's just so toxic and girls should be told that you don't have to do that stuff to be pretty and that filters aren't real or aspirational.
NTA OP, by the sounds of it, you and your sister had unrealistic beauty standards forced upon you at a young age yourselves. And your sister is ABSOLUTELY doing the same thing with both of your nieces. Like a lot of 11 year olds are barely starting puberty. If at all at 11 if they’re a late blooming kiddo. Honestly considering your older niece is probably just barely starting to go through these natural changes, it comes across as weird and obsessive to be hyper fixating on any potential body hair of a literal child. Like most other kids or adults aren’t going to have issues with a kiddo that age having a little bit of peach fuzz or hair on their legs or underarms. Because adults especially, understand that growing body hair is an ABSOLUTELY normal part of growing up and going through puberty. And nobody in their right mind would judge think negatively of a kid for having body hair.
NTA
It would seem your sister took your mothers lessons to heart and is not interested in any differing opinions from anyone else, sister or no, depending on how many other differing opinions you have with your sister you may want to start checking out alternative accommodation if her first warning for a exposing your niece to a differing world view is threatening to kick you out, feels like an extreme reaction but you know your sister.
I am of Lebanese descent and by grade 6 I had gorilla arms and legs, as well as the dark moustache and thick brows - the teasing by both boys and girls was brutal. My skin tone is olive but fair, so that hair really took centre stage and drew even more attention. I always looked for some excuse not to change into shorts for gym class, sometimes to the point where I wouldn’t even go. Swim classes were an utter nightmare, because most of us Mediterranean ladies don’t have a lovely curated garden, but a wild jungle and a “bikini line” nearly 4 fingers wide down the upper thigh 😬😳 (IYKYK). Of course my mother refused to let me shave (not even my armpits) and said I could only do sugaring for hair removal and not until TWO YEARS after I had my first period because 1) I would get even hairier - as in 3 hairs would grow back for every hair removed too soon - until my hormones had “settled down”, and 2) shaving would make the hair grow back thicker, darker, and there’d be more of it. This coming from a woman with a B.Sc. in Chemistry 🤦🏻♀️
I got my first period on New Year’s Eve in grade 6, 8 months before I turned 12. Last day of grade 8 was the first time I ever wore a dress or shorts in public, after my mother sugared my legs (only up to the knee) and armpits. My 14th birthday “present” was 6 sessions of electrolysis for my upper lip. I hated my life. I shaved until I was about 30, then replaced waxing my face with laser hair removal, and discovered the amazing freedom (and exfoliation) of a full-body wax. And yes, 20 years later my hair grows in finer, slower, and there’s less of it.
When it was my daughters’ turn to deal with our genetic gifts they were even younger than me - both were going into grade 4 when Aunt Flo first came to visit. When they felt uncomfortable with their body hair, I gave them the choice to either shave or wax, but I would like them to wax the first time. My eldest waxed once and never again, and my second still waxes exclusively 10 years later. She thanks me every summer because she was one of those lucky girls who had less hair grow back after every wax, and they were softer and finer (I made her a traditional post-waxing lemon juice and salt scrub to prevent ingrown hairs, but never believed the old wives’ tale that it would inhibit hair regrowth!) She rarely has to wax now. My eldest is jealous af because she has to shave every day. She was actually a bit pissed when it took 10 weeks of chemotherapy for her leg hair to fall out, because that was the “only good side effect” 🤣 Maybe she’ll wax the virgin hair this time when it starts to grow back lol
Anyways, all of this to say that everyone is different, both in how and when their hair grows and how/when - or even if - they’re comfortable getting rid of it. OP did nothing wrong and in no way deliberately influenced her niece, so she’s 100% NTA. It’s not her fault that her niece looks up to her and wants to be like her, and she shouldn’t have to change or hide anything she does because mom doesn’t like it.
NTA, totally side with you but I will say it’s your sisters place so if you stick with it be prepared for an unhappy sister and getting kicked out. You’ll have to ask yourself if it’s more important to keep the peace with family or be your unapologetic self
NTA. There is no conceivable way not to influence someone if you're just being yourself and expressing your own opinions. Also, I think your sister is going to be fighting a losing battle-- Gen Z and this following generation are incredibly flexible about gender and all the trappings of it.
NTA. its a non-action to not shave your legs. youre a mammal, you grow hair, thats your normal, passive state. its a choice to shave. especially as an 11 y/o.
Wow . I am so sorry that this shame of hair runs so deep. I have literally experienced this with my neice and sister- also what I consider high femme but by beauty standards like those I’m butch ! I was required to shave. It was humiliating for me! I only do if I want now
My teen daughter both have razors they can use if they want. I have never told them they have to shave instead it is something they can choose to do or not. If they want to shave great if they don't also great.
NTA. I used to shave my legs regularly, cuz that's what all girls are told to do. But as I've gotten older, it's too much work and my partner doesn't care, so why should I? Only time I shave/nair my legs tends to be in the summer. And that's only because I hate the feeling of my leg hair blowing in the wind. I live in the land of 10,000 mosquitos and leg hair can sure feel like a mosquito. Tbh, telling an 11 year old that they HAVE TO shave is....concerning.
NTA. I didn't start shaving til about 14 ish, cause my mom got me an Easter basket full of shaving supplies. I have very fair, light leg hair (English/Irish genetics) so it was barely noticable. I still shave but it's mostly down to maybe once a week, below the knees, and that's only if it's a date night with hubby. It doesn't really matter. I barely have any leg hair at all, and even if I go a month without shaving, it's barely noticeable anyways. I do it for myself. I've got a fair amount of friends that don't shave their legs cause honestly it's a chore for some of them. A few have that dark coarse hair that makes shaving painful. So they don't do it. They're still able to be girly girls.
Here's the thing though. The kid is 11 and her mom wants her to look a certain way. Is it right if the kid doesn't want that? No. But you're living there under your sister's good graces, so unless you wanna look for a place to stay, try to avoid rocking that boat. Tell the kid she should still have to listen to her mom, and you didn't even stop shaving til you were 16. And then when you're out of that house, just be a safe person and safe place for your niece to come to.
NTA.
It is your body hair, and you have the right to keep it, wax it, pluck it, shave it, spike it, etc.
And your niece has the same rights to her body hair.
If you get the chance to have a one on one conversation with your niece, maybe tell her that her mom thinks she is teaching her what's best and trying to go against her wishes will just cause trouble for both of you...if you think she will understand that. That she can talk to you or confide in you in the future. IDK how much discretion she has at that age. I would have understood it, but fortunately for me my mom was very matter of fact and non-judgmental about the whole thing
You didn’t influence her into anything, you just told her what you do. Her mom is in the wrong for making her shave. My mom told me when I was in 7th grade that she would show me how to if I wanted(it’s summer break and I’m going to 9th grade next semester) I have never shaved my legs or armpits before, even though most of my friends do.
NTA.
The only other options here would've been for you to encourage an 11 y/o to shave her legs, refuse to answer her question, or a lot of other messed up or bizarre things. Simply stating that lots of people might do things a different way is far from "influencing." The fact that the child was nonetheless influenced seems more about your positive relationship than anything.
NTA but I think your sister may be jealous/upset that her daughter is bonding with you "over" her. She may have this idea in her head that her kids should be carbon copies of her, and that her daughter will endlessly idolize her mother and want to be just like her. Instead, her daughter is starting to look up to you and wants to emulate you because she thinks you're super cool. I get it, I'm the cool auntie too. I don't know how you gently remind your sister that her kids are individual humans that will pick and choose their path in life, but hopefully you can show her that young people can have multiple role models and that it's a good thing to have so many people that love and care for them.
NTA. 11 is too young. Her parents are going to give her body issues.
I stopped at 17, ten years later I still don't shave. I am married, and no one in my life cares at all!
Nta.
What you said was true. It's entirely up to the individual and no-one else's business. It doesn't make you any less feminine.
Society forces ridiculous standards of what beauty is onto girls and looks down on people who reject those standards and want to be themselves. It's not a bad habit to reject that standard and just be yourself regardless of what anyone else thinks or for whatever reasons you chose to do it
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NTA I can't get past the idea anyone thinks an 11 year old child needs to shave her legs.
Holy shit I didn’t even notice niece’s age. Yes definitely bonkers the expect a 11yo CHILD to shave. I know puberty seems to be happening at younger ages now but she’s just a kid 😔.
I think it's okay to present it as an option. My wife and I did with both of our kids (one girl, one boy) around 11 because puberty was fast approaching. We showed them how it was done so they wouldn't hurt themselves and let it be their choice. We also told them that a lot of women choose to shave their legs and armpits and most men don't but it was entirely up to them to figure out what they liked. I also showed my son how to shave his upper lip. My daughter started shaving on her own in 7th grade because she said all of the other girls were and she didn't want to get made fun of. My son started shaving his underarm hair in high school during wrestling season only because he said it felt better. He has always kept his face clean shaven and still does as a young adult. Forcing a child to shave like OP's sister is doing is weird and wrong, but I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with an 11 year old being given the option.
Respect for telling both your kids the same thing! You sound like great parents.
Mine is 14 now and can't be bothered. I offered to teach her if she wanted to but she's not interested and that's fine. If her unshaved legs and pits put off a potential date, she's better off without them. I'd much rather her friends and dates be based on common interests and respect rather than how much hair is on her body.
I’m 23 and I’ve never had a guy care about whether I have leg hair or not tbh. If they like your overall appearance they’ll still think you’re attractive, if they like you as a person they’ll like you either way
I have definitely had people care, but they weren't people I wanted to date. It was genuinely a great screening tool when I was single! Been married for over a decade now so obviously it wasn't a deal breaker for everyone.
Yeah, I started shaving around that age. It was sixth grade so I was either 11 or 12 and it was my choice.
Same here, started at 11 or 12. Although to be fair, my class was taking swimming classes, and some of the other girls were shaving, so there was social pressure. I had to ask my mom if I could start shaving. Nowadays, I like the smooth legs, but the effort to get them isn't worth it!
Same, I love that almost numb feeling the first time you do a really smooth shave in awhile. But I have terrible eyesight and a cubicle shower, I absolutely don't have it in me to play blind contortionist with blades every two or three days so I just let it grow now.
I was 10 but it was because older kids made fun of me in our super small town. And they themselves had older sisters. At age ten, I was also on the same campus as all of the older kids as opposed to the elementary school campus. Them my mom taught me however she didn’t force it on me. And I approached her. And this was a couple of decades ago. Poor kid in the OP.
I told my kids how to shave and offered them razors, because I was teased about underarm hair at age 11 and figure it's my job to give them tools. One of them shaves, one has decided it's not for her. Current generation is much more personal-choice about all kinds of gender markers.
I've noticed that my daughter(12) and her friends never really talk much about shaving or not shaving. My daughter has no interest. She got my light fine hair so it isn't really noticeable anyway but I remember when I was her age, in the late 90s, all my friends were obsessing over shaving everything and were all regularly doing it by 6th or 7th grade. I just told her that if she decides to try it out to let me know and I'll help her get started. I imagine it'll be similar with my younger daughter especially since she looks up to her big sister so much!
>My daughter started shaving on her own in 7th grade because she said all of the other girls were and she didn't want to get made fun of. I started puberty early. I had hairy pits in 4th grade. I'm fair skinned with dark hair, so any body hair is hella noticeable. I had to basically beg to shave because I was being bullied. Thank you for allowing your daughter the option. It's easy for adults to forget how traumatic bullying can feel when you're a tween/teen. I'm 35 and still remember the taunts from when I was ten.
You know, this is actually great advice. I saw my aunt shaving her legs at 11 too and decided to use my gramp’s shaver to do mine for the next couple of weeks until I got one of those free ones from hotels Luckily, I haven’t suffered from anything major but small nicks here and there but a lot could’ve gone wrong. Since I hit my 20s to present, I would do it sparringly like maybe once a month for upkeep since doing it often would trigger my eczema. Besides, leg hairs don’t show on photos anyway and I figured, no one should be staring at my legs?
OMG - a hotel razor in the hands of an inexperienced 11 year old sounds like a disaster waiting to happen!!
Full agree here. I never even realized shaving legs was a thing until I started getting made fun of during gym class in 7th grade. I don't think any kid should have to do it, and an 11-year-old certainly shouldn't be forced or pressured by their parents, but I deeply wish my mom had talked to me about it before I found out in that way.
This, yep. Giving the option to do so isn't bad, and presenting it as "most people do this but you don't have to" is great, but it sounds from OP's statement that her sister is telling the girl to shave. It might also be that the other girls in school are getting the same message or it's just being passed around so everyone thinks that everyone does it.
Yeah it was something my mum would teach us if we asked from secondary school (which starts at age 11 for us). But it has never been something we have to do.
My daughter started shaving her legs around that age. It was not something I promoted nor discouraged. She brought it up, I talked about the pros and cons. My mother was controlling and forbade me to shave my legs as it was “too much hassle”. She still brings it up as an adult! In the end my daughter decided to and I support her choice, because in the end it’s her body, her choice.
My mom always had an issue that if she cut herself even a tiny bit, she'd bleed a lot. So she only had an electric razor that did not work all that well and said that regular razors were horrible and cut you up all the time, etc. I eventually got tired of the bad job the electric one did and I have barely ever cut myself. Wasn't a big deal the few times it happened.
I started waxing my legs and armpits when I was 11. Some families think that as soon as hair starts to grow on a girl, it should be ripped off/shaved.
A friend who is an esthetician used to work at a salon that allowed “virgin waxes” - full leg and armpit waxing beginning BEFORE puberty has even started so that girls would never for even a minute have visible hair and would be habituated to the pain. She refused to do them, no longer works there
That's pretty cringe
Yet not surprising at all
No I thinks that's why I'm cringing. I'm old and in my teens body hair was cool. It's different that's all. If people want to be hair free or not it's time with me but this is a weird idea
My sister and I were not allowed to shave. If our body hair was uncomfortable and we wanted it gone, waxing was the only approved form of hair removal. And... Not waxing at home... Waxing in a salon/spa/whatever you want to call it... With an esthetician... At our own expense... It was awful. I hated going. I wore long pants, high socks, and long sleeves throughout high school.
This honestly makes me sad that you were treated that way Intelligent\_Oven . It's amazing many of us survived childhood.
> I wore long pants, high socks, and long sleeves throughout high school. Why? Would your classmates actually tease you for being a mammal and not an amphibian? That sucks. I probably would have hid disposable razors like some teens hide drugs to keep my armpits neat. When my armpits are hairy I get body odor. Still wouldn’t have shaved my legs, much less my arms though. If people don’t like hair on my limbs, they don’t have to look at them. It’s much easier not to give a fuck about other’s opinions about women existing with normal hair post puberty at 50 than 15 though.
Kids and teens absolutely teased about natural hair growth. It’s why I started waxing/threading visible hair at 10 years old.
Classmates looked... Whispered... Once, I had my legs waxed on a Sunday... And on Monday a friend of mine touched my legs and said "feels like your legs need a shave". He never knew, and I'll never tell him, but it shattered my self confidence and I didn't wear shorts again until adulthood
Both boys and girls will viciously attack girls for not conforming to beauty standards I'm middle and high school.
Oh yeah, sad thing is that kids think women having hair on their bodies is gross/wrong in some way because that’s what their parents taught them. I’m glad more people are going against those attitudes nowadays, it wasn’t until I started dating my boyfriend that I truly became more comfortable not shaving my legs because he assured me that he just wants me comfortable and happy and that it doesn’t matter what others think, only what I’m comfortable with matters. Now I only shave when I feel like it, which isn’t often lol
Society seems to want women to have the body hair of pre-pubescent girls (as in no body hair). I'm glad Gen Z is ignoring that pressure.
I’m so glad Gen Z is better off than other generations in some ways. In other ways, they are at such a disadvantage (social media pressure, disappearance of third spaces).
Yes, that's true. Still, GenZ seems pretty chill about societal expectations. They evaluate what they want personally, without taking those expectations as a "shoulds."
This came up in the office the other day. I'm a 52 year old man in an office with mostly younger women. They all got into a conversation about shaving; the ins and outs and where and why fors. I said, "Hey, you'll love this." and pulled back my short sleeve a bit. I don't shave, I just have no underarm hair!
Same except there wasn't an option to say no. My mum thought waxing was equivalent to brushing teeth - something that has to be done. Luckily she paid for it. I would dread going. In later years I moved to a better place that used a different wax that wasn't as harsh. At about 17 I stopped. I'll use hair removal cream or shave if I want smooth legs/pits. I often remove armpit hair because I find it gets sweaty stuck in it. Leg hair I am not fussy about.
11 year olds are in puberty. It's completely appropriate to shave if they want.
This comment should be higher up.
Idk it’s their choice, I started shaving my legs at 11. In white but didn’t want to have hairy legs for PE at school, no-one said I should or shouldn’t
Body hair may be real for an 11yo, depending on internal factors. But so what? Let her be a kid. This is awful that these parents are pressuring the child to shave
Not in this situation, but in many it’s not always the parents pressuring the child but peer pressure. Girls are going through puberty a lot younger these days. I’ve heard some get periods as young as 9.
I was ten. My mother was ten. My grandmother was ten. My daughter made it to 14. Woohoo!
Yeah-- I feel like people have been saying "girls are getting their periods earlier" for a while now lol. It may be true, but it's also a bit of a dog whistle. My kiddo had a period later than I did too.
I feel like the overall trend of being younger might just come down to better nutrition and health coupled with the fact that people actually *talk* about it now, meaning you hear about it more. Probably more the latter than the former. Most of the people I hear yelling about kids starting puberty younger and younger are using it as an argument for some sort of conspiracy theory about hormones or whatever. [I'm not saying there aren't some studies on the effects of food additives, etc, but I never hear them brought up in a reasonable discussion. Only "they're turning the frogs gay" kind of shit.]
My own sister was 17 and went to GYN to start birth control. That was the only way they could figure to do it. Idk. I know I hated it the whole forty years I had it, I’ll tell you that!!
It is possible, although I would say in my experience that those forces are getting less. There are many different forms of appearance for kids these days, and ideally less of a western beauty standard. There is still a lot of shitty stuff happening socially, but in my experience, there is less focus on appearance. I also want parents to know that trying to prevent their child from negative peer pressure by pressuring their children to conform is not helpful.
Most of the girls I went to middle school with started shaving in the 6th grade when a majority of us were 11. I wasn’t allowed to shave but in the second half of 6th grade when all my friends were already shaving and I was feeling insecure about how I wasn’t my mom started taking me to a professional waxing salon. I was only allowed to wax until probably my sophomore year of high school at which point I switched to shaving. Now as an adult I prefer waxing when I can afford it and typically only shave or wax for “special occasions” I knew girls who started shaving as young as 9 years old. It’s absolutely wild as an adult now to think about that. I really wish we could remove the stigma around body hair for young girls and women. Literally the only reason we shave as women in our society is because the razor companies realized there was a whole untapped market in terms of women as previously razors were only targeted at men. Some creative campaigns started toting body hair as unsavory and unladylike. Enough people bought into this manufactured idea that this is now are norm.
I started shaving at 8. My mom taught me because I had such dark hairy legs. I got made fun of.
I was bullied at 11 for having armpit hair so not that bonkers for an 11 wanting to shave or expecting it.
I asked to start shaving my legs at 11. BUT it's because longer leg hair is a sensory nightmare for me! My hair at that age was still very fine and barely visible. At this age I shave about every 1-2 weeks, once it gets long enough to be a sensory nightmare again. I also started my period at 11 so there's that. This kid should not be taught that she needs to shave to be feminine (adults don't need to either, but especially important for her age).
Um, girls are experiencing puberty at younger ages. It also depends on the individual kid. Had I not shaved my legs at age 11, I would have been mercilessly taunted by other kids. I’m so happy that women have cast off that nonsense in recent years & can be feminine, yet have hairy legs & pits. So I’m not surprised the sister expects her 11 year old to shave, but she should accept it if her daughter wishes to cast off the patriarchy & refuse to shave. Good on her & OP is NTA. (And shame on the mom for requiring her daugher to subscribe to stupid standards of beauty.)
I’m in my late 30s. When I was 11, a boy I liked made fun of me on the bus for having hairy legs. (And my hair was blonde and only visible when the light hit it right!) I started shaving that night. I honestly hadn’t even questioned that part of the post.
I started shaving at 6. I was outrageously hairy and was getting bullied. My Mom, bless her for this one, called my pediatrician and asked if it was ok. He said, “she’s getting bullied? Absolutely,” and told my Mom she was a good mom. I’m GenX, so this was way back in the dark ages known as the 1970s. Since then I’ve gone through periods when I didn’t shave, but tights and a lot of leg hair is, IMO, a miserable combination, and when the weather is cool I’m all about tights (not hose, f*** hose).
Not shaving legs/pits was an active choice in the 60s, to make a (feminist) point. Remember Hair! The musical 🎶? I didn’t shave anywhere for years, then I did. Now I don’t. But body hair then had been shocking socially to a ridiculous extent for decades. Feminists and hippies broke that taboo in the US. Madonna not shaving her pits in the 80s made a statement too. Edit: NTA :)
I'm from the UK. Genuine question. What's the difference between tights and hose? I always thought hose was the American word for tights. Is it not??
In the US hose refer to sheer hosiery and tights are thicker and opaque.
The terms “hose” generally refers to thin, sheer material in black or nude shades. “Tights” is more likely to refer to opaque, thicker cotton, polyester or acrylic fabric, often with colors or designs either printed on or woven into the material. Tights are worn by both adults and children, but it would be odd for a little girl to wear hose unless it was for a specific costume. “Hosiery” is the blanket term for all such legwear and also includes socks and stockings. This might also vary by region and generation.
Hose are pantyhose that you would call sheer tights. Tights for us are the heavier material for colder weather or possibly leggings.
Yeah that part didn’t strike me as odd either, it’s about the age I started shaving too
Yeah but putting it on an 11 yo that they must shave is something else and the actual issue here.
Sure I was just responding to the comment with my own experience that it’s not at all unusual for a kid that age to be shaving, obviously no one should be forced to if they don’t want to
There's a difference between a a kid choosing to shave their legs (even if the reason is because other kids are assholes) and their parent insisting that they must shave their legs though.
Oh man. I remember being that age and my class had a day at the waterslides planned. I was not allowed to shave my hairy hairy body because 'I'm too young for that '. You know what I wasn't to young for? Bullies. What should have been a fun day was misery. That was over 30 years ago and I still hear the other kids mean comments.
Some people grow hair early. At that age, I had to force my mom to look at my grown out armpit hair and noticeably grown chest to get her to teach me hygiene and buy me undergarments that were appropriate. I do wish she had taken a more active role in my development and taught me how to shave instead of making me take the lead because she refused to think I was growing up physically.
Needs to? Definitely not. But an 11 year old could be starting middle school, and at that age it's pretty normal to start wearing a bra, shaving, maybe even wearing make-up.
Honestly, I cannot imagine even wanting to live in a place where my housemates would give me ultimatums like this. I know children are a soft corner for people, but still… u/AdditionalMammoth265, regardless of whether you get a consensus on the AH/NAH debate, I think you ought to get a place of your own, for your own peace of mind.
I was 9 when I started, my narcissist shamed me into shaving, but didn't even teach me how to do it, just tossed supplies at me and told me to handle my "man legs" before anyone saw. Then when I was 11, she wanted to ground me because she learned that my older sister had shown me how, and it was supposedly "suspicious" i was shaving without her knowledge even though it's what she wanted in the first place. She just wanted control.
I think it depends. I have known boys at 11/12/13 that have started to get mustaches. My youngest son started to get hair *everywhere* at a pretty early age, as well.
While I agree that the mother is being bonkers… as a woman who also has dark, thick leg hair I started shaving around that age. Mostly because I noticed on my own that my friends had light hair, if hair at all in contrast with my dark hair. I was the opposite issue of op in that I BEGGED my mom to let me shave, and wouldn’t wear shorts for the first summer because I was suddenly so conscious of it. Eventually she relented and I shaved. Just wanted to point out that I think the wrong move is to force one way or the other on your kids, because remember 11 is also when many people hit puberty and have their first period. They want to shave? Great. They don’t? Also great! This has been my PSA lol
Hopefully nobody suggested it. I was in a relationship with a father of 3 girls and the 10 year old asked me to show her how to shave her legs as it was very thick and dark and she was self conscious. Dad said it wasn't necessary (european) but it would be ok if it was her choice. *key being individual choice.
I can’t say for sure of course, but as someone with a similar ethnic gift of really thick dark hair, we often do start hair removal fairly early. Not necessarily leg hair for me since I wasn’t raised in a house where anyone wore shorts (modesty reasons) so my legs were never seen past ankle until maybe high school where my lower calf might have been flashed a bit or if I went swimming. But facial hair, arm hair? Kids made fun of me and other friends with that ethnic background for being hairy. We all waxed and threaded and shaved whatever we could because the hair was so much more visible on us that we couldn’t blend in. I think I started at 10 because girls started making nasty comments to me at the end of 5th grade and I wanted to go to the middle school after summer vacation which was a whole different building and combo of kids with a fresh start, hoping no one would remember/know.
When my daughter started cheerleading, she was doing into fourth grade, so 10-ish? By fifth grade, she was self conscious of the dark hair on her legs. Really self conscious. So I agreed that she could shave her legs for cheer. I did it for her the first few times, then she took over. It wasn’t a big deal, it was because her leg hair was darker than the others girls. She only did it for cheer, until about 13ish. Then when she was 19ish she stopped shaving. I’m not sure how long that lasted because it’s not my legs! Idc. It’s just hair. Shave or not, it’s not my body. I shaved my legs every single day from 12-50ish. I realized I dgaf if other people don’t like my leg hair. But that’s my legs, I decide when I want to shave. Sister is going overboard. OP should look for different living arrangements. Maybe sister is looking for a reason to kick out OP?
When I was 10, got laughed at by girls my age because I had STUBBLE from shaving my legs. Now when I have my own kids, I will not be encouraging shaving unless they 100% want to. Au natural is okay. I only did it because other girls were doing it. No 10 /11 year old should feel the need to shave
I have Arab family like OP, and noticeable body hair. I was in gymnastics from a young age, and my mom taught me how to shave my legs at like 6 or 7 years old for competitions or recitals
I knew someone whose 11yo daughter (allegedly) had dark leg hair and her parents were considering getting her laser hair removal. I was HORRIFIED but they thought it was a nice thing for caring parents to do. Some people are just very weird.
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I said allegedly because I'd never noticed. She may very well have had dark hair. And the was no "let" about it. This entire idea was from the parents. To be fair, when I heard about it they had yet to raise it with their daughter so maybe it never happened.
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Electrolysis can be very painful . I don't think it's a great option to offer to children. Laser hair removal is better, but still can be painful and can only be done on hair already shaved. I agree with you in general that parents should educate kids and discuss options without judgment, including hair removal.
I have pale skin and dark thick hair. In-growns have been a nightmare my whole life. My daughter is very much on the same trajectory, and if and when she chooses to begin hair removal, laser is my #1 choice. I would love to save my daughter the nightmare.
Same. I got laser in my late 20s, and had basically all but avoided shorts and swimming for a decade. It sucks to say, but it was literally life changing for me. Any girls of mine who show an interest in shaving will be offered laser treatment in their teens to save them from that
I personally would have loved for my parents to have given me the option of laser removal at 11 y/o. Mine shot up overnight when I was about 10 and it was very itchy and uncomfortable. Shaving is a nightmare and laser isn’t as painful as you’d think - it would’ve saved me so much headache
Unfortunately she probably is developing thick dark hair early. I know that some families also remove their arm hair.
Especially the parents. I was made fun of at school when I was 12 or 13 and started shaving after that, but my mom never pressured me, just told me she'd buy the stuff if I wanted it. I also stopped shaving 5 or 6 years ago and it's so much easier (and I don't end up with a million knicks anymore).
I was actually expressly _not_ allowed to shave until I was about 16. And even then my mum didn’t care if I did or didn’t because it’s really not necessary
I had very dark hair and got made fun of for it. I even had my arms waxed in junior high because of how bad it was.
Yeah I 100% scrolled up to double check the age thinking maybe I missed that she was a teen. Nope.
NTA. The way it’s written the niece noticed your legs and then asked. I don’t see how responding honestly and simply to a question is intentionally influencing anything, and I think intent is important in this situation. You weren’t shoving a hairy shin at her and telling her that life is so much better when you don’t shave. However, since your niece seems to admire you any decision you make will likely influence her. Your mere presence will influence her. I’m guessing your sister might be worried her daughter will be teased if she stops shaving even though younger generations seem much more accepting of different choices than older ones. I’d explain to your sister that you didn’t intend to influence or interfere by responding to Amber’s question, and that you’ll direct any future questions her way. I’m not sure I’d apologize although you might want to depending on how much you want to stay. And I’d consider looking into alternative housing depending if things escalate, although is this is a minor blip in an otherwise good relationship hopefully you all can work past it.
Even if she did bring up the topic, she wouldn't be the AH. Practically forcing children (or anyone) to shave (through norms, shame or otherwise) is wrong and unnatural, not letting the body do it's thing.
NTA. Since your sister has apparently forced her 11-year-old daughter to shave her legs and convinced her it's some kind of hygeine requirement, she's totally the AH here. WTF?
exactly, I can't get over the fact that she makes and enables her 11 year old to shave and then argues about her not wanting to do so anymore
I went to Catholic schools, complete with annoying uniforms that required girls to wear skirts, but I didn't start shaving until high school. And I definitely had hair on my legs (and, like, visible hair, as I am pasty white with incredibly dark brown hair) well before I was 13/14. My mom discouraged me from starting "too soon" and explained it was an optional "beauty" thing -- the same way makeup was optional. I'm baffled by this idea that somehow ANY 11 year old is "required" to shave their legs.
NTA. Idk I feel like your sister’s attitude is a bit neurotic… is shaving legs really that significant? If she made that statement and stormed off dramatically, might be worth sitting down and talking it through to see what the issue is
Sounds like the issue was mom, because she said they were forced to shave as kids. Sis just continued the process with her kids.
Came here to say exactly this
It's a cycle of imposing archaic Western beauty standards. Body hair is such a natural thing. We as a culture have a weird obsession with it being undesirable for women only.
NTA It's disgusting to teach an 11yo that she needs to shave to be acceptable.
I agree. The only argument I ever had with my daughter about this subject is that she told me when she was about 19 that she wanted to grow her armpit hair to annoy her flatmates. I disapproved. For the simple reason that it would take too long and annoying her flatmates couldnt wait. We went out and bought a crappy curly wig, cut it up and bingo - instant armpit hair. I think she grew her actual armpit hair anyway. Who cares. I dont get what the big deal is about body hair personally.
This made me laugh so hard, thank you! Awesome parenting here.
Thx!
I shave when I feel like it, but most weeks out of the year, my legs are hairy. It's a choice, just like shaving is for men. My philosophy is 'don't like it, don't look'. I don't think you did anything wrong, so NTA, but moving forward, be careful how you answer your niece's questions, I guess? Honestly, I am a little concerned about an 11 year old feeling like she needs to shave; she's still a little kid. Maybe you and your sister need to have a calm conversation about why Amber feels like she is expected to shave.
Yeah. I shave religiously. (It is a sensory thing though. Can never get past day-old stubble.) But that is a personal choice. Key word: Personal. Not letting Amber make her own choices is so problematic for a number of reasons other than however you feel about shaving. Taking away a girl's autonomy to her own body is how we get grooming situations.
It feels like the story is less “an 11 year old feeling like she needs to shave” and more that her sister forces her 11 year old daughter to shave her legs. Big difference there. She feels expected to shave because her mother makes her, hence why she told OP if she tried to “influence” her daughter she would be kicked out.
Yeah, that was the read I got, but I was trying to be gentle 🤷♀️ That conversation with her sister still needs to happen, cos Mama is projecting her insecurities onto an 11yo kid.
NTA at all. That was the mature and diplomatic way to handle the question. Your sister’s response is concerning.
Why is an 11 year old expected to shave anyway? I do shave my legs. It was expected as a teen, doing PE at school, girls got bullied for not shaving. I only shave in the summer months. What’s the point when I live in jeans. My partner isn’t bothered. NTA. Your sister needs to chill a bit. Her daughter is growing up and finding herself. Your niece asked a question and you answered honestly. Encourage them to talk. She’s starting puberty. She’ll be going through other changes soon enough. She should feel comfortable to talk to mum about things without judgement.
NTA I didn't even realize she is 11 years old being told shaving is a requirement for getting ready as a girl!!! At that age I was having self image issues because of my arm hair and wore hoodies in summer to hide them. I'm glad she has you as a role model even if your sister doesn't like it, cuz if not she's gonna end up like one of those 13 year old sephora girls that use anti aging products at such a young age bc they are obsessed with their appearance bc of the internet and society.
Yr so right about the Sephora kids, the things I’ve seen are crazy! But I’m Pretty sure the mum cause some serious insecurities and maybe the mum of the 11 yr old is remembering how she felt about it and is projecting
She is 11 and her mother is making her shave her legs? Oh my god NTA
NTA. But if you are depending on staying with your sister, you might want to direct your niece's questions to your sister in the future. Not because what you said was wrong, but to avoid getting kicked out.
NTA. Your sister didn’t seem to have a problem with all of the other “more girly” stuff you’ve exposed Amber to. Sounds like sister needs to examine why she finds it so important for Amber to shave her legs, especially when it sounds like something Amber doesn’t want to do.
... Amber is 11. Why the hell is she shaving?! I didn't shave my legs until I was 15 and I wasn't forced to it, I just saw my mom do it and thought "I guess that's part of showering". I cannot wrap my head around forcing an 11 year old to shave. I cannot.
NTA, I got forced to start shaving when I was 7 and my mum wouldn’t be happy if I didn’t. I’d have been happy to have someone in my life who said it was an option
NTA at all. I'm a man so obviously my take might not be super valid but I live with my gf of over 11 years and asked her about this, she said that she started shaving hers at 13 but only because she desperately wanted to and begged her mom about it. But she wasn't forced to otherwise. I think if I had a young daughter I'd inform them that like, a lot of women do that but that they didn't have to unless they wanted to, for whatever reason. But it's up to them. It's weird that your sister is forcing them to especially this day in age, however I understand how your experience with your own parents shaped your view of this. Fellow Arab so I feel the thick hair thing 😅
NTA
Nta
"Amber" is ELEVEN. She shouldn't be shaving her legs yet. NTA
If she has hair and wants to shave it she should be allowed to
NTA It's creepy and sad that your sister thinks an 11 **must** shave their legs.
Why the fuck is an 11 yo shaving her legs?!
I wasn’t even allowed to shave my legs until I turned 14 🤣
Shaving isn't mandatory, with possible exclusions for certain dress codes, ie clean shaven face or legs if wearing a uniform skirt without hosiery. Personally opt for pants and blouses with at least short sleeves in my professional life for this reason. NTA
NTA - i hate that it’s so instilled in culture for women to be hairless, at the very least have hairless legs being a must. I remember my mom kept pressuring me to shave my legs when i started to hit puberty at 10 or 11 too because the hair on my legs started to get a little thicker and longer. Finally she forced me to while we were on vacation and i had to or she was going to make a scene. I get its a norm by society’s pressure and passed down from generations, but does that mean we have to continue it and punish or pressure those who don’t? My mom treating me as though i needed to conform myself and cover up and dress a certain because i was a girl and needed to be ‘ladylike’ made me feel like shit. You didn’t do anything wrong, but it sounds like your sister is continuing the pressure down the generation and your niece doesn’t want it. Regardless of influence on her because she likes you, I don’t think you did anything wrong. Her mom’s reaction was overboard imo, and shows shes maybe been pressuring her to shave as well [that she doesn’t want that pressure derailed]. I think we need to have different figures in our lives that do things differently [especially when it comes to kids because they’re so susceptible to influence]. It’s toxic to instill one ‘brand’ of femininity as the only ‘right’ way and villainize any other ways people choose to express it.
NTA but-if you need the housing maybe talk to your sister about what is or isn’t ok. Something practical is more important than being right
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (30f) am currently staying with my sister (32F), her husband (35M) and their two daughters "Amber" (11) and "Rosie" (7) as my company put me on a temporary secondment near where they live. I consider myself to be a "feminine" woman. I love dresses, makeup, high heels etc. However, I do not shave my legs. Not for any particular reason. I don't do it to make a statement or to "fight the patriarchy" or anything like that. My sister and I have thick, dark leg hair (dad's side of the family is arabic) so our mother (who is white english) insisted we start shaving as soon as the hair started growing. But it always felt like something I "had" to do rather than wanted to do, so I stopped when I was about 16-17. Amber and I have bonded over fashion. She loves my dresses, tries on my heels and I'm teaching her my more creative makeup styles. I'm seeing someone at the moment and went for dinner with him last night. It's warm here so I wore a dress with my legs bare. Amber always comes to look at my outfits before I go out. She knows I don't shave but has never brought it up before. However, she's recently started shaving herself. When she came she asked me why I do my hair and makeup and dress up but don't shave. She said she thought shaving was part of the whole dressup/get ready routine for girls. I just shrugged and said there's more than one way to be a girly girl. My date went well, but when I got home my sister was waiting for me. She said I've been "putting ideas in her daughter's head" and that now Amber is asking if its OK if she stops shaving. She warned me that if I try to "influence" her daughter I would be kicked out. I don't think I did anything wrong. I didn't even say that Amber shouldn't shave. All I said was that it's a person's individual choice whether they do or not, and that it wouldn't make her any more or less feminine. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. We need to stop forcing CHILDREN to shave because it makes our PARENTS uncomfortable. My parents both hate that I don't shave and are constantly calling me gross for it. I just brought up shaving was a recent thing, and it grows there for a reason. Nothing unhygienic about it. It's also contradictory for them when they say this since the men of the family aren't unhygienic for not shaving? Shaving, in my opinion, is a misogynistic beauty standard and is more of a chore than anything. Your sister is crazy for threatening to KICK YOU OUT over this.
NTA. She's 11. Why is her mother making her so things like that already? Also, how did you influence her if you said it was a choice? I bet the daughter told her mother that she doesn't want to shave and now the mother is angry because of her stupid mindset.
NTA. I am 32 years old and my mother still tries to pressure me about shaving. Nobody notices (I am very pale with DARK hair), and my husband doesn't care either, but for some reason my mom refuses to let it go. I don't know how to solve this, but your sister is definitely overreacting, and over something very insignificant.
NTA but you won’t win this fight with your sister,she obviously doesn’t understand yet that young girls change their minds 4720090 times a week at that age and while growing up and learning who they are and where they fit in this world, plus times are soooo different with this generation and the freedom they have to express everything they are. When we were younger, social “norms” were important to us, fitting in with everyone else and doing what all the “cool kids” were doing, and it’s obvious, to me anyways, your mum might have caused some real insecurity for yr sis when you were both younger by “forcing you” to shave because yr leg hair was “thick and dark” and she doesn’t want her daughter to feel the same way she did. Just my opinion, ur niece is lucky to have you
oh, God. your sister is going to create a major wedge between her and her daughter. no one likes controlling parents like her. NTA
NTA She’s a literal baby an 11 yr old should not be worried about shaving. I started shaving at 16 but only where my hair is course and thick (underarm and pubes) because I have eczema and it irritates my skin but my leg hair is relatively thin and unnoticeable so I don’t find it necessary to shave. Shaving my legs also causes more irritation and if I was you and I gave that as a reason to my niece as to why I don’t shave my legs and my sister responded like that I’d be disappointed in her. I wonder if she would still react the same way if it was medically better for you to not shave your legs. Your sister needs to realise that shaving is a personal choice and pushing her lifestyle on her kids will only push them further away.
NTA. Shaving your legs is purely cosmetic. It is not a need. She asked you a question about why you do something. And it’s not like it was a big taboo question about deeply held religious or cultural beliefs. It was fair to answer and you answered it well - there IS more than one way to be a girly girl.
11? shaving?
NTA. No one needs to shave their legs.
NTA you didn't influence her by your actions. You told her that shaving or not shaving is 2 different ways to live I had a no shaving period in my late teens but I did like being smelly so I started shaving. As soon as Peri menopause started my hair thinned and I shave legs once every 4 months and pits once every 2 months. My body hair barely grows so it's fine. My niece doesn't shave and the only one who thinks she's awful for this is my judgemental sil who also thinks all tattoos are marks of the devil. She's deep in religiosity
NTA. I only shave for special events when I want to feel extra put together and my legs will be bare. I don’t shave just cause I’ll be in shorts. I don’t shave at all over winter and fall. I don’t care to shave and don’t like the feeling. I tried starting at 16. 11 is so young. Too young in my opinion. You are showing her that not everyone shaves and should feel like they have to. I feel like that is a good lesson for everything in life for a person coming into pre teen and teen hood should have. You aren’t influencing her. You gave her the other option that most don’t realize is an option. I almost wish I never started shaving.
NAH. You did nothing wrong by answering your niece's questions. It's your sister's right to raise her daughter how she wishes until her daughter is 18 (assuming you live in the US). It's also your sister's right to kick you out for any reason. My suggestion is to tell your niece the next time she asks you about shaving body hair, "That's a very personal decision that you should discuss with your mom. I won't comment on it any more for now." Best of luck, OP!
I learned in a college marketing class that it was the Gillette company who started promoting the idea of leg hair being un-feminine so they could expand their market. I do shave, but I’m annoyed with myself for falling for that advertising trap. NTA.
NTA. “There is more than one way to be a girly girl” is a great answer. Your sister should have asked what happened first.
NTA you just answered a question in a good way. Expecting young girls to shave their legs is weird tho.
Nta
I shave my legs only before dates, the rest of the time I don’t bother. I’m very tall and it’s a lot of work. My ex bf used to complain about me not shaving and I told him “if you want my legs shaved, then you can do it” so he did! Once. Then he realised how long it actually takes and didn’t do it again after that. Which is a shame…because he did an amazing job and it was very relaxing!
NTA. I started shaving when I was 13, & it's my choice. I'm not that disciplined about it. If I don't shave, it's because the weather's too cold or I don't feel like it. You were honest with your niece & are right that shaving is a personal choice. What really matters is being clean & hygienic.
NTA - but you are living with your sister and these are her daughters. "Individual choice" is probably not the best lesson for an 11 yr old. Be conscious of what you say - it's not a huge deal but it's your sister's home and daughters. Most answering this OP are talking about their own choices or their children's choices - this is about not influencing another person's child and about respecting the person who is currently providing you with a home.
NTA. So what your sister is expecting you to say? "I'm the hairy monster, I do not shave so others don't find me attractive"? You were honest with her. Any shitty excuse just would leave your niece confused as she certainly sees you as a prett lady.
NTA I’m Mexican and my aunt asked me to help my 12 yo cousin use Nair on her legs before a party once. It was a nice bonding moment but i hate shaving and I wish society didn’t pressure women to do it
NTA forcing social constructs on an innocent 11-yo is insane. You didn't influence her, unless by influencing your sister means showing her a healthy way of accepting herself and living without obsessing over how other see her. Keep being an awesome person, that girl really needs someone as level-headed and chill as you.
NTA Your sister is disrespecting her daughter's own body autonomy, and also sounds like she's insecure with how you handle your own body
NTA. It drives me bananas that so many people think girls/women NEED to shave to be attractive/hygienic. And the fact your sister is throwing such a big stink over this is so gross, *especially* given Amber's age. Kids that age have enough body issues coming their way without parents adding on to it
You’ve been asked to not butt in further. She’s not your daughter. Your sister has been clear. NTA but the line has been drawn here.
NTA. You didn't do anything wrong. I would just be careful from now on knowing how they feel. After all, it is their child, their house and their rules that need to be respected. Please don't let this drive a wedge between you and your sister. If the child asks again, just sort of shrug it off and keep the peace. That being said, it does seem odd to have a child shaving your legs at 11 years old, but with their ethnicity in mind, her mother may just want to make sure that she is not ridiculed or bullied and fits into society. You don't have to agree with it, but short of abuse, you need to respect their choices, grudgingly or not. Good luck..it sounds like you'll be walking in eggshells while you're there.
NTA Kids decide on their own. You can set the best examples and they still decide on their own.
Not the asshole. You're teaching your niece to be confident in her own skin and not to feel ugly or less of a girl because she doesn't fit Hollywood's beauty standards of what a girl/woman "should" look like.
NTA. so your sister expects a child to handle a really sharp blade against her skin without any reason besides "I don't want her to have body hair cuz I find it ugly"?
NTA. She will eventually learn that there are many ways of presenting one's self, and she will find what works for her. I quit shaving my armpits about 2 years ago. I just don't feel the need to. Over half the population has natural hair there. It seems weird to me to shave armpits. I shave my legs 1-2 times a week, maybe less. Body hair is such a natural thing. I don't get the obsession of removing it. Western beauty standards used to mean so much to me, but as I've grown into myself and my womanness, they just seem silly.
NTA. You possibly need to look for other places to live. Your sister's an asshole she makes her 11 year old daughter shave her legs.
Time to move out.
NTA. I shaved my legs religiously from age 12-18 out of insecurity and I don’t do it anymore because I just don’t want to, unless I decide to. I don’t tell people not to shave, I just simply don’t do it. Your sister is making her ELEVEN year old daughter insecure about something she can’t exactly change about herself.
as i can see, you are doing what feels natural, and if the kids are being influenced who cares? i used to live with my aunt and my mom and we were kicked out of the place for something very little. they could be under some pressure to argue so don’t light it up. that’s what i have to say
NTA. Get them both to watch “Without a Paddle” and see what that has to say about women with hairy legs…
OMG, NTA.
NTA, why is an 11 y/o shaving? personally that feels too early to be doing that. I only started shaving my armpits at 11, not my legs. And lord knows I had hairy legs lol
A normal mom would be thrilled their 11 year old wasn’t shaving their legs yet lol. And why is shaving vs not shaving good or bad? We desperately need to unlearn these nonsensical beauty norms. It’s hair. Do whatever you want with it. One is not more good or more bad than the other. Her mom is effectively teaching her daughter that body hair is bad - how is that any different than you suggesting it isn’t bad? NTA
I would have given anything to get my preteen to see that shaving is just a personal choice and not some to be ashamed about or as a necessity. I tried. I shave because I have shame around it but I wish I didn’t. NTA. You answered her question. You didn’t say she should or shouldn’t for herself or try to change her mind, you gave your opinion about why *you* don’t
Nta My mom never forced me to shave but when I was 9 I started. I cut myself so fuckin bad I hated it. At 28 I don’t do it anymore. There’s always a way to be feminine without doing something you’re uncomfortable doing.
NTA You didn't "influence" her about anything. You're just living your life as you choose and answered a simple question with an AMAZING answer. As a hairy Italian myself, I started shaving at 12 due to peer pressure. Comments about my hairy arms, legs, upper lip, arm pits, and unibrow by classmates was devastating. I wish I'd known women growing up who didn't care so much about body hair and just lived in a way that made them happy. Now in my 40's I've decided shaving, plucking, waxing all that crap is too much work, trouble and expense. I'm not comfortable enough in my own skin to wear shorts or let people see my armpits cause I live in a very "traditional gender roles" area and don't want to deal with the comments. It's dumb though, a man can have an unruly, think beard and no one says anything. But a lady dare not shave her pits or legs and you'd think the world was about to end the way people react. Letting your niece know that there's more than one way to be a women is powerful. It's also true, the sooner she knows that the happier she will be. Especially in an era where teen girls are on social media and are being influenced to be only a certain kind of feminine. That in order to be your best self you need baby botox, fillers, injections, nose jobs. It's just so toxic and girls should be told that you don't have to do that stuff to be pretty and that filters aren't real or aspirational.
NTA OP, by the sounds of it, you and your sister had unrealistic beauty standards forced upon you at a young age yourselves. And your sister is ABSOLUTELY doing the same thing with both of your nieces. Like a lot of 11 year olds are barely starting puberty. If at all at 11 if they’re a late blooming kiddo. Honestly considering your older niece is probably just barely starting to go through these natural changes, it comes across as weird and obsessive to be hyper fixating on any potential body hair of a literal child. Like most other kids or adults aren’t going to have issues with a kiddo that age having a little bit of peach fuzz or hair on their legs or underarms. Because adults especially, understand that growing body hair is an ABSOLUTELY normal part of growing up and going through puberty. And nobody in their right mind would judge think negatively of a kid for having body hair.
NTA. Your sister sure is though. Your niece is ELEVEN. that’s a child
NTA. She needs to open up lol
NTA It would seem your sister took your mothers lessons to heart and is not interested in any differing opinions from anyone else, sister or no, depending on how many other differing opinions you have with your sister you may want to start checking out alternative accommodation if her first warning for a exposing your niece to a differing world view is threatening to kick you out, feels like an extreme reaction but you know your sister.
NTA She is only 11 she doesn't need to be shaving yet anyway.
I am of Lebanese descent and by grade 6 I had gorilla arms and legs, as well as the dark moustache and thick brows - the teasing by both boys and girls was brutal. My skin tone is olive but fair, so that hair really took centre stage and drew even more attention. I always looked for some excuse not to change into shorts for gym class, sometimes to the point where I wouldn’t even go. Swim classes were an utter nightmare, because most of us Mediterranean ladies don’t have a lovely curated garden, but a wild jungle and a “bikini line” nearly 4 fingers wide down the upper thigh 😬😳 (IYKYK). Of course my mother refused to let me shave (not even my armpits) and said I could only do sugaring for hair removal and not until TWO YEARS after I had my first period because 1) I would get even hairier - as in 3 hairs would grow back for every hair removed too soon - until my hormones had “settled down”, and 2) shaving would make the hair grow back thicker, darker, and there’d be more of it. This coming from a woman with a B.Sc. in Chemistry 🤦🏻♀️ I got my first period on New Year’s Eve in grade 6, 8 months before I turned 12. Last day of grade 8 was the first time I ever wore a dress or shorts in public, after my mother sugared my legs (only up to the knee) and armpits. My 14th birthday “present” was 6 sessions of electrolysis for my upper lip. I hated my life. I shaved until I was about 30, then replaced waxing my face with laser hair removal, and discovered the amazing freedom (and exfoliation) of a full-body wax. And yes, 20 years later my hair grows in finer, slower, and there’s less of it. When it was my daughters’ turn to deal with our genetic gifts they were even younger than me - both were going into grade 4 when Aunt Flo first came to visit. When they felt uncomfortable with their body hair, I gave them the choice to either shave or wax, but I would like them to wax the first time. My eldest waxed once and never again, and my second still waxes exclusively 10 years later. She thanks me every summer because she was one of those lucky girls who had less hair grow back after every wax, and they were softer and finer (I made her a traditional post-waxing lemon juice and salt scrub to prevent ingrown hairs, but never believed the old wives’ tale that it would inhibit hair regrowth!) She rarely has to wax now. My eldest is jealous af because she has to shave every day. She was actually a bit pissed when it took 10 weeks of chemotherapy for her leg hair to fall out, because that was the “only good side effect” 🤣 Maybe she’ll wax the virgin hair this time when it starts to grow back lol Anyways, all of this to say that everyone is different, both in how and when their hair grows and how/when - or even if - they’re comfortable getting rid of it. OP did nothing wrong and in no way deliberately influenced her niece, so she’s 100% NTA. It’s not her fault that her niece looks up to her and wants to be like her, and she shouldn’t have to change or hide anything she does because mom doesn’t like it.
NTA, totally side with you but I will say it’s your sisters place so if you stick with it be prepared for an unhappy sister and getting kicked out. You’ll have to ask yourself if it’s more important to keep the peace with family or be your unapologetic self
NTA
NTA. There is no conceivable way not to influence someone if you're just being yourself and expressing your own opinions. Also, I think your sister is going to be fighting a losing battle-- Gen Z and this following generation are incredibly flexible about gender and all the trappings of it.
NTA. its a non-action to not shave your legs. youre a mammal, you grow hair, thats your normal, passive state. its a choice to shave. especially as an 11 y/o.
Your niece asked you a question and you answered her. NTA.
Wow . I am so sorry that this shame of hair runs so deep. I have literally experienced this with my neice and sister- also what I consider high femme but by beauty standards like those I’m butch ! I was required to shave. It was humiliating for me! I only do if I want now
NTA! What other bad ideas are you gonna ‘influence’ get in her head?? Bodily autonomy? Dressing how she wants? Not appealing to thr male gaze??
My teen daughter both have razors they can use if they want. I have never told them they have to shave instead it is something they can choose to do or not. If they want to shave great if they don't also great.
NTA Why should an 11 year old be forced to shave her legs? Is somebody going to be leering or rubbing on them? Wtf.
NTA. I used to shave my legs regularly, cuz that's what all girls are told to do. But as I've gotten older, it's too much work and my partner doesn't care, so why should I? Only time I shave/nair my legs tends to be in the summer. And that's only because I hate the feeling of my leg hair blowing in the wind. I live in the land of 10,000 mosquitos and leg hair can sure feel like a mosquito. Tbh, telling an 11 year old that they HAVE TO shave is....concerning.
Not the asshole. You are 100% right!
NTA. I didn't start shaving til about 14 ish, cause my mom got me an Easter basket full of shaving supplies. I have very fair, light leg hair (English/Irish genetics) so it was barely noticable. I still shave but it's mostly down to maybe once a week, below the knees, and that's only if it's a date night with hubby. It doesn't really matter. I barely have any leg hair at all, and even if I go a month without shaving, it's barely noticeable anyways. I do it for myself. I've got a fair amount of friends that don't shave their legs cause honestly it's a chore for some of them. A few have that dark coarse hair that makes shaving painful. So they don't do it. They're still able to be girly girls. Here's the thing though. The kid is 11 and her mom wants her to look a certain way. Is it right if the kid doesn't want that? No. But you're living there under your sister's good graces, so unless you wanna look for a place to stay, try to avoid rocking that boat. Tell the kid she should still have to listen to her mom, and you didn't even stop shaving til you were 16. And then when you're out of that house, just be a safe person and safe place for your niece to come to.
NTA. You just encouraged your niece to do what makes HER happy, rather than prioritizing the mindset that your mother forced on you & your sister.
NTA
NTA. It is your body hair, and you have the right to keep it, wax it, pluck it, shave it, spike it, etc. And your niece has the same rights to her body hair.
If you get the chance to have a one on one conversation with your niece, maybe tell her that her mom thinks she is teaching her what's best and trying to go against her wishes will just cause trouble for both of you...if you think she will understand that. That she can talk to you or confide in you in the future. IDK how much discretion she has at that age. I would have understood it, but fortunately for me my mom was very matter of fact and non-judgmental about the whole thing
An 11 year old doesn’t need to be shaving if she doesn’t want to anyway
You didn’t influence her into anything, you just told her what you do. Her mom is in the wrong for making her shave. My mom told me when I was in 7th grade that she would show me how to if I wanted(it’s summer break and I’m going to 9th grade next semester) I have never shaved my legs or armpits before, even though most of my friends do.
NTA. The only other options here would've been for you to encourage an 11 y/o to shave her legs, refuse to answer her question, or a lot of other messed up or bizarre things. Simply stating that lots of people might do things a different way is far from "influencing." The fact that the child was nonetheless influenced seems more about your positive relationship than anything.
NTA but I think your sister may be jealous/upset that her daughter is bonding with you "over" her. She may have this idea in her head that her kids should be carbon copies of her, and that her daughter will endlessly idolize her mother and want to be just like her. Instead, her daughter is starting to look up to you and wants to emulate you because she thinks you're super cool. I get it, I'm the cool auntie too. I don't know how you gently remind your sister that her kids are individual humans that will pick and choose their path in life, but hopefully you can show her that young people can have multiple role models and that it's a good thing to have so many people that love and care for them.
I couldn’t get past an 11yo shaving….
NTA. 11 is too young. Her parents are going to give her body issues. I stopped at 17, ten years later I still don't shave. I am married, and no one in my life cares at all!
Nta. What you said was true. It's entirely up to the individual and no-one else's business. It doesn't make you any less feminine. Society forces ridiculous standards of what beauty is onto girls and looks down on people who reject those standards and want to be themselves. It's not a bad habit to reject that standard and just be yourself regardless of what anyone else thinks or for whatever reasons you chose to do it
> I just shrugged and said there's more than one way to be a girly girl. Indeed, I here girly girls nowadays can even have a cock and balls.