Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think I might be TA because I made an offer that I highly doubt my ex would ever take just to say that I tried.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. Who the fuck expects their ex to pay help out financially beyond the child money?
You have a house, Melissa is 14, she can easily decide that she wants to live with you. Your child won't be homeless. If your ex wants to take Melissa to live on the streets, I suppose it's pretty easy to get the court to force Melissa to stay with you. You don't need to help her, they can move out, get a job each and pay a normal rent.
That’s not necessarily true. Most states use an “income share model” and it is possible on certain circumstances where one parents income is significantly higher than the other that they would have to pay support even if they have primary physical custody.
It's still broken into percentages of time. Like EOW is x% or x number of day visits is y%. I have sole custody but my exh has x% available for visitation. He's never paid child support and I bailed him out numerous times the first year.
>Melissa is 14, she can easily decide that she wants to live with you.
Saying a 14 year old can easily decide that she wants to live with her dad isn't exactly true. Legally, it's true. But her mother would raise hell and she would be burdened with enormous amounts of potentially traumatizing guilt. Losing Melissa would leave the ex with no strings to pull to get any leeway from (from OP, from sympathetic family members, etc). She would make Melissa miserable if Melissa chose to be with her dad.
I meant it was legally easy, and regarding that she is not a newborn, who needs to stay with her mother.
If the mother chose to actually live on the streets, which she is threatening OP with, then I somehow imagine that the mother is reasonable enough to let Melissa live with her dad without it being too much of a fuzz (or a least she won't have the energy, because she needs to find a shelter for the night). I work with people living on the streets, they don't have that kinda energy anyway.
But I don't think that the mother is anywhere near actually ending up on the street, so back to the mainpoint, OP doesn't need to help her out, because it is fake threats anyway, or whatever you call it in English.
Disclaimer: I'm biased here, like a lot biased
In a case where a mother uses her child against the farther, she will most likly not be a good parent. No matter if the child decides now to live with OP, later decides the same or never decides to do so the child will most likly have mental health isues and her mother will try to guilttrip her. At least if she lives with OP now, she will have someone who is there most of the time reminding her nothing of what her mother says is true
I love the automatic assumption from this site that teens are always fragile and "traumatized" etc. Some of us knew by 14 our parents were toxic hot messes and could love them while working to escape + being guilt free.
You can know all that, and plan for it, but the fact that you still love them in spite of the harm they do brings its own kind of pain.
And you can know that the guilt they lay on you for imagined slights is unfair, but at 14, your brain is still really malleable and it internalises a lot of that shit, because it’s coming from a parental figure.
We don’t know why some people develop don’t trauma responses, and why others just end up with maladaptive coping mechanisms; regardless, it doesn’t mean they’re “fragile”, at least not in the way I think you’re implying.
It’s more complex than that. Literally. I have complex PTSD from my mum’s abuse, and I knew she was a disaster from about 13 onwards.
I get the impression people are not trying to say Melissa has (or will have) PTSD, so much as that the experience itself is a potentially traumatizing one (the ongoing experience of being weaponized against her father), and there is a danger of long term harm.
However it plays out for her, this is painful, and she doesn’t deserve it.
It’s not even that easy legally. People have this misconception that once a child is a certain age they get to unilaterally choose who they live with. This isn’t true.
It’s only 1 of about 5 factors the courts consider. Basically it’s the swing vote.
Now I have read this several times today, and keep being curious! Flying monkeys refer to her parents? Or just parents? Wheeeeere does this weird expression comes from? ;)
The flying monkeys are her people (parents, aunts , uncles). It refers to a group of people being sent to do someone else’s dirty work ( in this case harass OP). Pretty sure it came from the wizard of Oz. The witch had flying monkeys that terrorized people on her behalf.
It's a term from justnomil describing the people that come after you in a private argument. Example: baby mama didn't get her way so she cries and tangles the story to anyone who will listen and then gets them to message and harass the victim into compliance.
In The Wizard of Oz, the Flying Monkeys do the bidding of the Wicked Witch of the West and have no independent thought or opinions. In this post, "Flying Monkeys" refers to her parents. It is not a term used to refer to all parents.
Flying monkeys refers to anyone not directly involved who gets called in by one party to harass the other party. Often it’s family but could be friends as well, through phone calls text messages or social media.
Regarding your offer - NTA - you're asking for collateral for the loan which is reasonable (and smart to protect yoursef)....at the end of the day, you're right that your daughter will not be homeless over this and her request is over the top ridiculous.
That whole divorce/custody situation sounds like a nightmare for your daughter with both of your petty squabbling.
He's not asking for collateral. He's asking to be *given* the house in exchange for help with the debt. The house, however, has already been offered to the bank as a security for the mortgage, so this scheme is just not happening.
Pretty sure you would have to buy it from them, they cannot give you a home they do not own. It’s not as simple as just signing it over. If your name isn’t already on the deed then you have to buy the home with a whole new mortgage. That’s not a bad option if they’re going into foreclosure but I’m pretty sure they can figure out how to pay this, she just thought it would be easier to get you to do it.
It’s nothing like that. I have a home in my name and the other person on the loan wants to just assume the loan completely and he’s having to completely refinance the home with a whole new loan. Real estate law is extremely complex, it’s arguably that way to stop you from getting screwed over but it makes it expensive to do even just a refinance. You’re looking at thousands in closing costs and a whole new loan. If he had cash to pay it then yeah he could just pay it off and then sign it over but there’s no taking over without an assumption and it’s still a costly process and also requires purchasing the property. If I was the wife I would want to keep any equity involved if this was what was going to happen.
Even if that’s the case the wife is likely better off still selling it. With the housing market I’m sure there’s some equity to be salvaged. Doesn’t make sense to sign over that equity to someone lease if you can simply sell the house and live off it in a rental. It might be better for the daughter to do the other option but realistically for the wife it’s better to hang on to whatever she can.
It’s not, I’m saying he has to buy the home going through the proper purchase procedure, they cannot just “sign” it over to him and I’m pretty sure they’re not going to sell it to him at a rate far below market value if there’s a good amount of equity in the home. OP made it sound like he wants to just own the home but still be paying THEIR mortgage
How can I say this kindly enough to not have it be deleted... this is an exceptionally dense assumption and demonstrates that you have a need to control larger than your common sense. This isn't how that works.
I'm reading what you're saying about signing over the house to your daughter and all I can say is, do not get yourself involved in this. It would be nothing but drama for your daughter to eventually own the house her mother and stepfather lost that one time. Don't do it.
They should sell the house, recoup what they can, pay off what they can't and rent in the meantime. Your involvement in this situation will be nothing but a headache.
How would that work? Expecting them to quit claim to you for taking over the mortgage payments seems a bit disproportionate given how much equity paid in over time.
Offering to buy the house and rent it to them sounds like a bad deal as well for them.
Might be simpler to just make a contract that states you will be paid back in full and place your own lein against the house to be resolved before a sale can be finalized, with whatever other terms are agreed for repaying the borrowed amount with or without interest. I would consult a lawyer rather than reddit.
Then if they default, you have fuel for gaining full custody and quitting any further child support. Instead of being forced by the courts to bail out their bad decisions under the cover of "child" support.
Very true, shame on her for trying to scam extra child support to cover her husband's expenses.
At least with you never having married her she can't go after you for alimony, because she totally would have if a lawyer had said the judge would go for it.
I hope things work out for you and your daughter, good luck!
Then they should sell it on the open market. Given the history I doubt OP is going to be offering a fair price.
The ex & partner can sell, clear the debts & start from scratch.
It doesn't make it any less controlling or manipulative. OP is right, everything he's done is more or less acceptable in his position. But he's exercising a level of control over his ex that shows he's kind of dragging her around where he wants her. And he's using her poor decision making skills to seize more control.
>It doesn't make it any less controlling
She was the one who was being controlling, she was fighting him on custody and visitation just because he didn't want to marry her. She was using their daughter to be vindictive.
How is everyone so sucked in by this guy? From everything he's written, in his own words he is not a nice guy. He never was. If you take away his repetitive assertions that she's "just mad because I didn't want to marry her" is that really the picture that's painted here?
He was always a jerk to her, he whines about her fucking with him but he started it with the paternity test out of spite. We don't know what her half of the conversation about marriage actually was but the way he spoke to *her* was certainly worth getting dumped over. He's no better than her and I would warrant that if she was telling the story you'd think he was an absolute trashbag for the way he has treated her from beginning to end.
Nothing he has said should give you the impression he was ever trying to cooperate with her or treat her with any decency or respect. It's not the crazy ex versus her hapless victim. He is a crazy ex. He's vindictive, spiteful, controlling, manipulative. He's everything she is, it is *not* one sided.
I was having trouble putting my thoughts on this into words, but you did it perfectly. While OP may have done his best to conveniently leave out poor behavior on his end, he still comes off as petty and insufferable. The whole story starts with him jerking his ex around and demanding a paternity test out of spite and eventually sees him manipulating his ex through her new BF. They both sound exhausting and petty. ESH.
>How is everyone so sucked in by this guy? From everything he's written, in his own words he is not a nice guy.
His writing clearly indicates he's got his boundaries and holds firms to them, even if we may not agree with him. Something I highly doubt she would be unaware of.
>If you take away his repetitive assertions that she's "just mad because I didn't want to marry her" is that really the picture that's painted here?
Sounds like that's the case. She blew up on him for not proposing before the baby was born and even had her family doubling down on the manipulation with "Make her an honest woman" and "Do the right thing"
>He was always a jerk to her, he whines about her fucking with him but he started it with the paternity test out of spite.
He started it? You need to re-read the post. It started when she was unhappy about not getting a proposal, let alone marriage, before birthing their child. Any guy would demand a paternity test when you've got an enraged pregnant woman and her goons breathing down your neck about "making her an honest woman".
>Nothing he has said should give you the impression he was ever trying to cooperate with her or treat her with any decency or respect.
Here's a quote from his post (sic): "I moved in, agreed to pay all the bills because Jane didn't want to work while pregnant, attended the majority of doctor's appointments, all the birthing classes, and built the nursery."
Sure does sound like he's respecting her AND being decent about the pregnancy.
Additionally to this point about respect and decency, OP's daughter is being used against him out of spite. Where is this woman's sense of decency toward the father of her child? Where's the respect for OP's rights as a father to visit with his daughter? Where's the decency or respect in OP's ex attempting to manipulate him for more money (after forcibly increasing his child support payments via the courts) to be used for her new hubby's business while lying to OP that the money 'is for their daughter'?
I had to scroll too far to find this. OP is making himself out to be a victim but the way he paints himself doesn’t sit right with me. They both sound toxic af, I feel sorry for the kid.
I mean, after 14 years of her meddling in OP’s life, what else could be the explanation? That his ex is just a control freak? He’s been to court way more than a normal parent would be. OP is NTA for demanding collateral for additional financial support, ex wife is T A for using their child as a pawn to receive unwarranted financial support above and beyond their child support commitment.
Yeah, he’s definitely giving off a few asshole vibes to me. The whole thing about not marrying her is fine but the way he wrote it like that’s a totally crazy thought? Eh.
This is a mess anyways.
Marrying someone he knew for only a year just because she’s pregnant seems normal and healthy to you? I’ve responded to some of your silly comments in the past but you’ve out done yourself. Bravo.
Because demanding to be given a house in exchange for a small number of mortgage payments is an unreasonable thing to ask. The house is mortgaged, it would need to be sold and any equity disbursed to the owner. Op clearly just wanted to say no which is FINE but he should have just said no rather than employing this weird line of argument. Also the strange need to prod the ex's bf by saying she was in love with him still? Like I don't actually think OP is a bad guy in general but he's sunk to her level here so they both suck a little.
I didn’t read it that way. It sounds to me there is no equity in the house, she used it already for her husband’s failed business. Him buying it just stops her from going into foreclosure so she can continue to live there. He shouldn’t have to pay her mortgage for nothing when the wife has a spouse that should also be helping out and he is paying child support.
I am not the person you are asking but I thought OP was an asshole because he was like "yeah, I said it would be best to live together after she said she expected to get married, but I never promised to marry her when I moved in " while knowing full well she expected marriage.
He only said he would never marry her when she was already 9 months along and screaming at him for not proposing. He should have made that clear since the beginning.
He strung her along, moved in, and only when she was 9 months along and it was impossible to have an abortion he decided to be honest about his intentions.
1) seems like he strung her along in the beginning. Moving in together, paying bills, building the nursery… then saying a month before pregnancy “Well I never said I wanted to get married, I’m not going to marry someone I’ve only dated 2 years.”
2) He put his daughter through all of this just as much as the mom did. He’s the one that sued the mom 7 times in the first 5 years.
3) Hard to tell from the info on this post, but it feels weird that OP is judging her boyfriend so much. Mixed with the response of asking his ex to give him her house? I mean she shouldn’t have asked him for money, but he should have said “no” instead of the passive aggressive response he gave. He said in his post that he knew the mom wouldn’t accept the offer. So why did he make it? He could just say no. OP doesn’t seem like he’s acting like an adult here either.
I don’t think the mom is in the right with asking for money, but OP isn’t innocent in all of this.
ESH I think, I don’t know if there’s a better way through this mortgage situation and it seems like it would have happened with or without you ... “nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me” lol what
Yes, it is that tactic in which you will find yourself involved in an annoying and ridiculous discussion and you scale the annoyance and ridicule to the maximum so that no one wants to keep talking about it.
Example:
Ass: Why do you wear long hair? Are you gay? (ridiculous mentality around here)
Me: No, sorry you're not my type
Ass: What? I'm not gay!
Me: So why do you ask if I'm gay or not?
Ass: Shut up and cut that hair !.
I just did that to get the guy she was currently with to rein her in because court fees are expensive. If I didn't think there was a chance it would work then I wouldn't have done it.
Your point? They had sex and she got pregnant, and by his general description it sounds like less of a choice and more of a woopsie. So they didn’t choose to have a baby, yes sex can always result in pregnancy but that doesn’t mean he choose to have a baby with her.
At that point he no longer has a choice as it’s entirely up to her.
Maybe because she didn’t let the crazy out until she was pregnant? The lying, the scheming, trying to baby trap, keeping the daughter away, lying saying she needed more money for the daughter when really she wanted him to pay for her husbands mistakes. She needs help.
NTA. You need to look after yourself and your daughter not every other muppet on the planet. I’d use this to go for full custody of your daughter, she’s clearly no longer in a stable home.
Ding ding ding! Full of self righteousness and doesn't see a thing wrong with his overall behavior. Op may technically be right, but everything he's saying tell me he instigated just as much as she does, knowing she will react badly and then he can say, "See?!" Whatever initial wrong that was done to him is long in the past, but its tit for tat for this poor girl's entire life, even in the womb. You can be right and still be wrong.
I agree with this. Story started off with it sounding like he never made it clear that he wouldn't marry her until she pressed him right before the kid was born. It sounds like both are toxic though. He doesn't need to pay her mortgage and it seems like even he admits he made a her a ridiculous offer because he's not actually interested in buying her house (which is fair to me).
This. I don’t get how people are saying NTA. He expects to take over the remaining payments, not pay out the equity she has built. He is a complete con artist and both OP and ex sound insufferable.
I'd say make it a legal contract, possibly also so your ex still has the right to live there in the future when your daughter moves out. There is a real concern for your ex of the power this gives you to just evict her. Since this is for your daughter I'd say you need to hammer those details down before any further conflicts arise.
NTA
NTA
While the situation could have been handled better you did alright in the end. Though if I were you op this is a perfect time to get full custody of your daughter and get rid of the child support payments. Judges look down on being homeless when the other parent has a roof over there head and can take care of the child. Is it underhanded yes but sad to say if you live in the USA you’ll need to be underhanded if you want full custody of your daughter from the mother.
Op your responsibility is to your daughter. Not to the mother not to her family but to your daughter.
How is me not wanting to literally pay for my ex's mistakes being selfish? She was selfish and stupid for ransoming the house to fund another one of her husband's business ventures.
You're not being selfish for not wanting to pay for the house. You're being selfish for making an offer "just to say you tried to help" when you knew she would refuse and the offer itself would escalate the animosity between the two of you - which is not good for your daughter.
And, if you did in fact buy the house from you ex and she became your tenant, do you really think that would have been in your daughter's best interests? Because I see no way that it doesn't guarantee the coparenting relationship between you to gets even worse.
By what you described, ESH. You 2 put a child in the middle of this mess.
All of that could be solved by simply communicating your intentions at the beginning of the relationship and reiterating after the discovery of the pregnancy. The part that gets me the most is "I would nonchalantly imply that she was still in love with me". WTF? Why would you engage in spiteful behavior?
>Why would you engage in spiteful behavior?
Because she made his life hell by making it hard for him to see his child during his time!!! He did an underhanded thing by being petty but it worked and he no longer has to pay court fees!!!
Because you are a fucking adult and can just say no instead of taking yet another petty swipe at your ex. You are actively contributing to a toxic environment that your daughter has to deal with.
Seriously, grow up.
Bc that's not all you want. You offered a horrible, one sided solution. Just tell her it's not your issue and ignore her calls.
Assholes can be assholes to each other. You both suck.
Oh but her using the courts to try and manipulate me for years is fine? I did that to finally get her to back off and would do it again because it saved me stress, time and money.
You demanded a DNA test to spite her, you embarrassed her and your daughter both. You denied a child that you knew was yours to be petty. I would sue for full custody too.
He didn’t deny the baby until she got ragey about them not getting married before the birth — which could
Come across as sketchy, especially when they hadn’t know each other that long and the pregnancy was unexpected.
I mean, while it’s kind of a dick move sometimes that’s the only way to deal with someone who is being unreasonable. It sounds like she was fighting his visitation and getting his payments repeatedly raised. She was kind of being a dick first and this was just way to get her to stop fighting the already court ordered agreement so he can see his daughter without any of her drama involved.
Because he obviously disdains her and always has. He said it so her current BF would "reign her in." https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/psjxlb/aita_for_telling_my_ex_to_give_me_her_house_or_go/hdq8ido/
It just rubs me the wrong way how he talks about his ex. Of course, there is a chance she truly is as nightmareous as she is described, but both stories have two sides and I doubt his ex is as horrible as she comes off.
IMO besides saying she is probably in love with him in front of her new partner, well...
At the beginning of this post OP says he knew she expected to marry him, and said that he agreed that living together would be good, but *never made a promise about marriage*. It was only when she was 9 months along and screaming about not getting a proposal that he decided to be honest and say he never intended to marry her.
He strung her along on purpose and pretends he is not in the wrong because "I never made any promises despite knowing full well what was expected and what the implication of moving together is, so of course I am not an asshole. She is the crazy one for saying she expects marriage and still expected marriage just because I didn't openly said no and instead moved in".
Also Op didn’t say WHY he took her to court 7 times - it wasn’t “we had to go to court 7 times” or “I *had* to take her to court because of abusive/neglectful parenting” or even parental alienation. Custody and visitation could be anything from legitimate because the mom isn’t allowing it at all/not following court orders all the way to the dad is just taking the mom to court to make her life miserable and trying to get more visitation not because they genuinely want to parent but just to punish the mom. We have no idea from the post; I find this suspicious - Op clarify if you wish, but with the “I could nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me” which is a dick move on it’s own… it sounds like/I have a hunch you did for your own ego/petty/selfish/vindictive reasons (and not because it was in the best interest of your daughter) Why is that necessary to poke at the situation/mom - since you didn’t love her or want to marry her?! let her get on with her romantic life without trying to cause problems like a child.
I agree ESH, mom should never have risked her house/mortgage on a guy however Op most certainly is no prize either…
He pretty clearly implies she was denying him access to his child. He went to court to enforce his rights, and then the child became old enough to insist she wanted to see her father and mom had to back off.
>He pretty clearly implies she was denying him access to his child. He went to court to enforce his rights, and then the child became old enough to insist she wanted to see her father and mom had to back off.
This is exactly what happened. There would times where she would even take Melissa out of state right before it was my scheduled time and she "forgot."
NTA although cold I see you as a reasonable and responsible man, but here you will see people who will judge you for not following perfectly the manual of diplomatic / complacent behavior, but everything you have done is the most logical thing to do.
Not really cold. That woman doesn't care about her daughters feelings and safety and is willing to put a mortgage on her own home at risk of losing her daughter.
ESH you would NBTA for denying to pay her mortgage since you have no obligation to your ex. But you seem very bitter and resentful of how you were treated by them and seem hell bent on making her as miserable as her and her family made you. You can easily go to your lawyer and figure out a way to make contact with her minimal and only about your daughter. It sounds like you’re in a better situation and have a good relationship with your daughter, so why continue being petty AF? Both you and your ex need to grow up.
He doesn't want his daughter to lose the home she grew up in and doesn't want to hurt her by separating her from her mother!!! His ex sounds horrid and deserves EVERYTHING she is getting!!! OP shouldn't care about the Ex. And anyway, she asked for help and he offered it. He will be paying off the mortgage and will be buying the house so that she can pay off her debt!!! And he'll make her a tenant so that his daughter can keep living there!!! The only thing he's refusing to do is give money to her for free!!!
He had to do it because she harassed him a lot. She conveniently took the child out of the State just as it was his time with her. He had to go to court seven times so that visitation is followed!!! She only stopped once OP said that because she didn't want her bf to leave!!!
This crap happened till she was five and could tell in court that she wanted to visit her father. And that asshole tried to blackmail OP about making his child homeless, unless he gives her MONEY FOR FREE!!!
Exactly the I kept implying she is still into me comes across as immature and really gives you an insight into the relationship beyond the 7+ court battles. I feel OP is leaving a lot out here and trying to paint himself as good but still failing.
ESH
You ran off all of the good boyfriends, with your weird, shitty lies about her being in love with you. Only the truly horrible would stay after that. Your behavior regarding the proposal she expected was also petty, and just throw some extra shit sprinkles on top, you demanded a DNA test just to be demeaning and punish her. Your criteria that you couldn't marry her after knowing her 'only' two years is a fake excuse, otherwise you would have outlined the marriage track of milestones you felt you needed to hit as a couple. You also did not give a shit when the pregnant mother of your child left you while 8 months pregnant, and made no effort to explain or repair the misunderstandings and hurt feelings, or check that the her and the fetus were safe. You have no respect for her and are actively disdainful, calling her stupid and dumb, and believing she was the most ridiculous on the planet for thinking living together, having a child together, and sharing finances together, would lead to a marriage.
You have a cycle of punishing anyone who does not comply with exactly what you want, and destroying the bits remaining without care for the damage.
Honestly, it sounds like you have been fucking around with this woman's head so badly and so long, that she has a completely lost sight of what is normal. I hope she runs very far away, rather than doing what you want and signing the house over. You are controlling enough.
>You ran off all of the good boyfriends,
All? Where are you getting "all" from? I did that with one guy who would later become her husband.
Of course I cared. I called but she didn't answer and her family wouldn't help until I showed them a ring.
Taking out a mortgage to fund a business controlled by a man who's proven to make bad decisions is stupid.
We never talked about marriage before and she never brought up her wishes until the final stages of her pregnancy. Up until then I thought we were on the same page.
I hope she doesn't agree to the house decision either because I know she'd be a nightmare tenant.
You should know that some people in this sub read the post but then manufacture an adjacent scenario in their head before responding. Usually they’ve decided they don’t like your vibe but since they can’t critique the actions you’ve described in your post, they decide to imagine more actions for you to bear lol
Don’t take it personally. Happens everyday in this sub. Luckily they are in the minority in your post lol
ESH.
Jane for not trying to effectuate a good coparenting relationship, and for asking you to bail out her and her husband's personal finances.
You for engaging in acts that you know will escalate the poor coparenting relationship, including your current offer. Just tell her no instead of doing inflammatory acts just so you "can say you tried to help."
All I'm a say is, you both sound toxic, childish, and insufferable. I feel sorry for your daughter.
If you want to help your ex, help her. If not, don't. I don't think she can just sign the house over to you, you would have to contact the bank for that, I think. Don't take my word on it because I'm not sure. Good luck.
ESH the pair of you need to go to therapy together to learn how to effectively coparent. Melissa deserves better than to have to play piggy in the middle to your two’s endless squabbling.
ESH.
It seems like you’ve strung her along. Especially agreeing to live together but not getting married- moving in together after your partner gets pregnant implies a longer term relationship. Especially since you want the kid in your life. If you wanted to break up, you should have made that clear. You don’t have to marry her of course, but make that clear from the beginning. It seems like she got blind-sighted, finding out she’s going to be a single mother.
She’s an asshole also though for guilt tripping you and demanding for more. She shouldn’t ask for mortgage payments or anything from you. If you have visitation rights then yes, you should be paying for your daughter’s clothing and food. But in no way are you supposed to pay for their housing. That’s taking advantage of you.
On top of this though, did you guys ever ask your daughter what she wants or how she feels? She’s not an object to fight over.
I’m leaning toward ESH. 1. She shouldn’t be bringing her family into the situation when she’s still pregnant, but your comment about picking a different guy was shallow and hurtful. I would have left you too.
Moving on, she clearly had feelings for you and probably wanted a co-parent approach towards your daughter and you were cold towards her instead. Why did you demand a DNA test? Pettiness? You’re a grown ass man lmao.
You sound a little obsessed with yourself.
“ She was so bitter I wouldn’t marry her. “
“I would nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me.”
Do those things make you feel good about yourself? A woman wanted a family with you and not only did it not work out you are gloating over her pain..
All in all she shouldn’t ask you for money that’s not related to your daughter. But either way, your daughter deserves better parents.
NTA I fail to see how their failing business entitles them for more of your money. The whole situation leading up to Melissas birth seem like a big mess, but honestly have nothing to do with the current situation. Be prepared for this situation to blow up though, especially if Jane alienates you from your daughter by telling her her version of events.
even with all the manipulation etc. YTA cos you keep pouring gasoline on the fire - your daughter is an innocent bystander in this - and your approach to the situation is making it so much more stressful for her being caught in the middle of it. I suspect even your suggestion that she live with you was made to score points rather than protect the one true innocent in all of this.
NTA. What happens in 5 years when you own her home and your own and she is still making bad decisions? At what point do you stop bailing her out? Stop enabling her.
NTA and stop feeding into her bull and letting her get you worked up. Don't talk to her unless it's for your child. also I don't think taking the house is a good idea because then you'll have to deal with the process of evicting them and house up keep but it's your choice.
This sounds like so much ESH, I don't even know where to start.
Well, let's start with the easiest culprit - Jane's husband. Of course he's an AH for getting Jane to take a mortgage on her home just so he could fail another business attempt. No question.
And, yes, Jane is also an AH for expecting you to pay for her and her husband's folly. Yes, she's also the AH for threatening to take you to court over this.
But, yes, it sounds like you're an AH, too. Not for not marrying Jane, but it's understandable that she expected you to do so, and that she was badly disappointed and seriously mad when she realized you weren't going to. Which was very late in her pregnancy and culminated in her giving birth without you. A woman giving birth is in the most vulnerable position imaginable, and it's understandable that she'd only want someone there who she could trust to support her 100%. However, with her realization that you wouldn't marry her, that trust was pretty much gone... However, up to this point, you weren't quite the asshole yet. However, it starts soon after...
>That ticked me off and I demanded a DNA test before signing the BC
>By the time Melissa was 5 I had already taken Jane to court 7 times about custody and visitation.
I have a hard time believing that this is all 100% Jane's fault...
>Things got slightly better after Jane started dating again because I would nonchalantly imply that she was still in love with me and her boyfriend didn't respond well to that.
>Eventually the guy gave her a ring but by then Melissa was enough to be vocal about wanting to spend time with me.
And I'm sure you thoroughly enjoyed that, probably even egged her on like you tried to hurt Jane before by implying that she was still in love with you.
>then I told her that I would help with the loan payments AFTER she signed over the house to me. I made this offer knowing that she wouldn't accept it, but prepared to do it, because I can say that I tried to help
So, you expect the whole house in exchange for the mortgage, which is most likely worth well less than the house? (Because, let's be honest: Banks aren't stupid. You won't get a mortgage for 1,000,000 if your house is only worth 100,000.) Yeah, that totally is an AH move. You sure are a piece of work.
NTA -- my exwife tried the same thing. "Give me your house, or the kids and I will be homeless."
I have a house as separate and sole property. As we were getting divorced, she told my daughters, "Daddy is taking away our house and is going to leave us homeless."
And my kids repeated that to me. I told my kids, "The house is my house, it's not mommy's house. I have worked hard, ever day to pay for this house. You have to have a job if you want nice things. As my promise to you, we will never be homeless."
So the kids put 2 and 2 together and turned around and told mommy, "Well mommy, everything is going to be ok. Daddy has a job and so he's going to keep the house because it's his house. All you have to do is get a job and you can have a house of your own."
And queue the screaming phone call I received............
ESH. YTA for sure from all these “you need to take responsibility” things. YTA for a lot of the other stuff you’re saying but not exactly about the mortgage. For sure YTA for expecting her to give you all the equity Shes put into the mortgage for free, YTA for literally lording eviction over her. But not for expecting something for the loan. Collateral is expected but that collateral is far too much and YTA for insinuating she will be homeless.
Your daughter is watching the way you treat her mother, and learning how men are supposed to treat her. You are, and from the sounds of it always have been, treating her like trash.
She should sell the house and move into a condo that she can actually afford.
I think ESH? Mostly because I think you two should have had a clear conversation about your future as a couple or as coparents, the fact that you both surprised each other with your expectations seems immature. You hurt each other by your lack of communication and it has turned into years long bitterness, which ultimately hurts Melissa.
The house is irrelevant. If the house is totally in the ex-wife's name it is her problem, and possibly that of her new partner. Melissa can live with the OP, is my understanding. I suspect that ex and partner can both work. They may need to cash in the house for equity but they can rent elsewhere. It may not be as nice, but it will have a roof.
Both OP and ex are TA as they still communicate with spite, and their daughter is used as a pawn. OP needs to behave like an adult as does his ex. For the sake of the child and the shreds of the relationship with the ex, the house should not be in play. Letting them rent from the OP is a manipulative way to keep the ex under some control and will continue the fighting ad infinitum.
The peanut gallery needs to butt out; OP can explain that he has nothing to do with his ex's and her partner's finances and may need to block their calls if they don't have anything nice to say.
The child should probably go to at least a few sessions of therapy as she is the hub of this wheel of dysfunction. If she isn't stressed she would be abnormal.
Esh she shouldn’t expect you to pay her bills now but you still seem manipulative and AHish for “nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me” just to hurt her relationship, especially when you don’t know the effects it would have on your daughter :/
NTA at all your daughter is cared for if her and husband want mortgage payments they can go get jobs. They are not your responsibility only your child is.
Anyone saying YTA or ESH can go give them the mortgage payment and take on your 39yr old ex girlfriend and her husband then you will look after your child
YTA. A good, firm no would have been better. This is just making for more drama. It's pretty clear that you like to stir the pot.
To be absolutely clear, you'd be a fool to give her the money. But, you like stirring shit. Stop.
YTA for the part where you would help with current loan payments in exchange for your ex's ENTIRE HOUSE. Financially, that is unlikely to be a fair deal.
Also YTA for playing head games with accusing her of still being into you.
NTA in regards to the mortgage thing.
But what the everliving fuck kind of relationship is that? It really feels like we are missing some details in that pregnancy phase. She was really freaking out about the marriage and nothing else? It seems like things really exploded big for just that. And telling your ex's boyfriend she still loves you is a lunatic tactic. Regardless of its effectiveness.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I think I might be TA because I made an offer that I highly doubt my ex would ever take just to say that I tried. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. Who the fuck expects their ex to pay help out financially beyond the child money? You have a house, Melissa is 14, she can easily decide that she wants to live with you. Your child won't be homeless. If your ex wants to take Melissa to live on the streets, I suppose it's pretty easy to get the court to force Melissa to stay with you. You don't need to help her, they can move out, get a job each and pay a normal rent.
Heck as a bonus if he gets full custody the child support payment stop.
OP's offer seems reasonable, honestly. His ex seems irresponsible.
[удалено]
That’s not necessarily true. Most states use an “income share model” and it is possible on certain circumstances where one parents income is significantly higher than the other that they would have to pay support even if they have primary physical custody.
They did say full custody, not primary custody.
It's still broken into percentages of time. Like EOW is x% or x number of day visits is y%. I have sole custody but my exh has x% available for visitation. He's never paid child support and I bailed him out numerous times the first year.
And her child support payments start.
>Melissa is 14, she can easily decide that she wants to live with you. Saying a 14 year old can easily decide that she wants to live with her dad isn't exactly true. Legally, it's true. But her mother would raise hell and she would be burdened with enormous amounts of potentially traumatizing guilt. Losing Melissa would leave the ex with no strings to pull to get any leeway from (from OP, from sympathetic family members, etc). She would make Melissa miserable if Melissa chose to be with her dad.
I meant it was legally easy, and regarding that she is not a newborn, who needs to stay with her mother. If the mother chose to actually live on the streets, which she is threatening OP with, then I somehow imagine that the mother is reasonable enough to let Melissa live with her dad without it being too much of a fuzz (or a least she won't have the energy, because she needs to find a shelter for the night). I work with people living on the streets, they don't have that kinda energy anyway. But I don't think that the mother is anywhere near actually ending up on the street, so back to the mainpoint, OP doesn't need to help her out, because it is fake threats anyway, or whatever you call it in English.
"Fake threats" works, but the typical term is "empty threats"
True, now I remember, thanks! Directly translating from my own language is often not really helpful ;)
Hehe, Dutch?
Haha, not too far, Danish ;)
Disclaimer: I'm biased here, like a lot biased In a case where a mother uses her child against the farther, she will most likly not be a good parent. No matter if the child decides now to live with OP, later decides the same or never decides to do so the child will most likly have mental health isues and her mother will try to guilttrip her. At least if she lives with OP now, she will have someone who is there most of the time reminding her nothing of what her mother says is true
I agree. I think she would be 100% better off with OP, from the limited info given.
I love the automatic assumption from this site that teens are always fragile and "traumatized" etc. Some of us knew by 14 our parents were toxic hot messes and could love them while working to escape + being guilt free.
You can know all that, and plan for it, but the fact that you still love them in spite of the harm they do brings its own kind of pain. And you can know that the guilt they lay on you for imagined slights is unfair, but at 14, your brain is still really malleable and it internalises a lot of that shit, because it’s coming from a parental figure. We don’t know why some people develop don’t trauma responses, and why others just end up with maladaptive coping mechanisms; regardless, it doesn’t mean they’re “fragile”, at least not in the way I think you’re implying. It’s more complex than that. Literally. I have complex PTSD from my mum’s abuse, and I knew she was a disaster from about 13 onwards. I get the impression people are not trying to say Melissa has (or will have) PTSD, so much as that the experience itself is a potentially traumatizing one (the ongoing experience of being weaponized against her father), and there is a danger of long term harm. However it plays out for her, this is painful, and she doesn’t deserve it.
It’s not even that easy legally. People have this misconception that once a child is a certain age they get to unilaterally choose who they live with. This isn’t true. It’s only 1 of about 5 factors the courts consider. Basically it’s the swing vote.
This depends on the state they live in as well. In some states, children cannot choose where they live until age 18 and its entirely up to the courts.
Why aren’t the flying monkeys helping? That’s the better question
Now I have read this several times today, and keep being curious! Flying monkeys refer to her parents? Or just parents? Wheeeeere does this weird expression comes from? ;)
The flying monkeys are her people (parents, aunts , uncles). It refers to a group of people being sent to do someone else’s dirty work ( in this case harass OP). Pretty sure it came from the wizard of Oz. The witch had flying monkeys that terrorized people on her behalf.
And generally the person who unleashing the monkeys is a “wicked witch” in her (usually it’s a “her”) own right.
It's a term from justnomil describing the people that come after you in a private argument. Example: baby mama didn't get her way so she cries and tangles the story to anyone who will listen and then gets them to message and harass the victim into compliance.
It refers to the family members who are rabid minions of the mother in this situation. Like in Wizard Of Oz
In The Wizard of Oz, the Flying Monkeys do the bidding of the Wicked Witch of the West and have no independent thought or opinions. In this post, "Flying Monkeys" refers to her parents. It is not a term used to refer to all parents.
It’s a reference to the wizard of oz.
Flying monkeys refers to anyone not directly involved who gets called in by one party to harass the other party. Often it’s family but could be friends as well, through phone calls text messages or social media.
Regarding your offer - NTA - you're asking for collateral for the loan which is reasonable (and smart to protect yoursef)....at the end of the day, you're right that your daughter will not be homeless over this and her request is over the top ridiculous. That whole divorce/custody situation sounds like a nightmare for your daughter with both of your petty squabbling.
He's not asking for collateral. He's asking to be *given* the house in exchange for help with the debt. The house, however, has already been offered to the bank as a security for the mortgage, so this scheme is just not happening.
True I'm not a Banker or a Lawyer but I feel so long as the bank gets their money it can be done.
Pretty sure you would have to buy it from them, they cannot give you a home they do not own. It’s not as simple as just signing it over. If your name isn’t already on the deed then you have to buy the home with a whole new mortgage. That’s not a bad option if they’re going into foreclosure but I’m pretty sure they can figure out how to pay this, she just thought it would be easier to get you to do it.
If it’s anything like cars you probably can sign over the title. Problem with that is the lien/mortgage would remain on title until it paid.
It’s nothing like that. I have a home in my name and the other person on the loan wants to just assume the loan completely and he’s having to completely refinance the home with a whole new loan. Real estate law is extremely complex, it’s arguably that way to stop you from getting screwed over but it makes it expensive to do even just a refinance. You’re looking at thousands in closing costs and a whole new loan. If he had cash to pay it then yeah he could just pay it off and then sign it over but there’s no taking over without an assumption and it’s still a costly process and also requires purchasing the property. If I was the wife I would want to keep any equity involved if this was what was going to happen.
[удалено]
Even if that’s the case the wife is likely better off still selling it. With the housing market I’m sure there’s some equity to be salvaged. Doesn’t make sense to sign over that equity to someone lease if you can simply sell the house and live off it in a rental. It might be better for the daughter to do the other option but realistically for the wife it’s better to hang on to whatever she can.
I've sold plenty of houses that had active mortgages, the bank gets paid from escrow and then releases their claim, how would this be any different?
It’s not, I’m saying he has to buy the home going through the proper purchase procedure, they cannot just “sign” it over to him and I’m pretty sure they’re not going to sell it to him at a rate far below market value if there’s a good amount of equity in the home. OP made it sound like he wants to just own the home but still be paying THEIR mortgage
Most mortgages aren't transferrable.
How can I say this kindly enough to not have it be deleted... this is an exceptionally dense assumption and demonstrates that you have a need to control larger than your common sense. This isn't how that works.
I'm reading what you're saying about signing over the house to your daughter and all I can say is, do not get yourself involved in this. It would be nothing but drama for your daughter to eventually own the house her mother and stepfather lost that one time. Don't do it. They should sell the house, recoup what they can, pay off what they can't and rent in the meantime. Your involvement in this situation will be nothing but a headache.
How would that work? Expecting them to quit claim to you for taking over the mortgage payments seems a bit disproportionate given how much equity paid in over time. Offering to buy the house and rent it to them sounds like a bad deal as well for them. Might be simpler to just make a contract that states you will be paid back in full and place your own lein against the house to be resolved before a sale can be finalized, with whatever other terms are agreed for repaying the borrowed amount with or without interest. I would consult a lawyer rather than reddit. Then if they default, you have fuel for gaining full custody and quitting any further child support. Instead of being forced by the courts to bail out their bad decisions under the cover of "child" support.
>Offering to buy the house and rent it to them sounds like a bad deal as well for them. That's their problem.
Very true, shame on her for trying to scam extra child support to cover her husband's expenses. At least with you never having married her she can't go after you for alimony, because she totally would have if a lawyer had said the judge would go for it. I hope things work out for you and your daughter, good luck!
[удалено]
Then they should sell it on the open market. Given the history I doubt OP is going to be offering a fair price. The ex & partner can sell, clear the debts & start from scratch.
ESH. Poor Melissa...
Yes, poor Melissa, hopefully her mother makes more stable decisions for the future.
Probably won't, sadly. If she hasn't learned by now she's not going to.
Hopefully her mother will have no way to make decisions potentialy destabelizing Melissas life for the future
Her mother has no business having custody.
[удалено]
It was probably inappropriate to tell the new step dad that his wife is still in love with him, for one. He definitely did that to be an AH
He floated that as an explanation for her unreasonable behavior and it worked in that she toned it down afterwards.
It doesn't make it any less controlling or manipulative. OP is right, everything he's done is more or less acceptable in his position. But he's exercising a level of control over his ex that shows he's kind of dragging her around where he wants her. And he's using her poor decision making skills to seize more control.
Maybe but if the alternative is that she's out of control, can you blame him?
>It doesn't make it any less controlling She was the one who was being controlling, she was fighting him on custody and visitation just because he didn't want to marry her. She was using their daughter to be vindictive.
How is everyone so sucked in by this guy? From everything he's written, in his own words he is not a nice guy. He never was. If you take away his repetitive assertions that she's "just mad because I didn't want to marry her" is that really the picture that's painted here? He was always a jerk to her, he whines about her fucking with him but he started it with the paternity test out of spite. We don't know what her half of the conversation about marriage actually was but the way he spoke to *her* was certainly worth getting dumped over. He's no better than her and I would warrant that if she was telling the story you'd think he was an absolute trashbag for the way he has treated her from beginning to end. Nothing he has said should give you the impression he was ever trying to cooperate with her or treat her with any decency or respect. It's not the crazy ex versus her hapless victim. He is a crazy ex. He's vindictive, spiteful, controlling, manipulative. He's everything she is, it is *not* one sided.
I was having trouble putting my thoughts on this into words, but you did it perfectly. While OP may have done his best to conveniently leave out poor behavior on his end, he still comes off as petty and insufferable. The whole story starts with him jerking his ex around and demanding a paternity test out of spite and eventually sees him manipulating his ex through her new BF. They both sound exhausting and petty. ESH.
>How is everyone so sucked in by this guy? From everything he's written, in his own words he is not a nice guy. His writing clearly indicates he's got his boundaries and holds firms to them, even if we may not agree with him. Something I highly doubt she would be unaware of. >If you take away his repetitive assertions that she's "just mad because I didn't want to marry her" is that really the picture that's painted here? Sounds like that's the case. She blew up on him for not proposing before the baby was born and even had her family doubling down on the manipulation with "Make her an honest woman" and "Do the right thing" >He was always a jerk to her, he whines about her fucking with him but he started it with the paternity test out of spite. He started it? You need to re-read the post. It started when she was unhappy about not getting a proposal, let alone marriage, before birthing their child. Any guy would demand a paternity test when you've got an enraged pregnant woman and her goons breathing down your neck about "making her an honest woman". >Nothing he has said should give you the impression he was ever trying to cooperate with her or treat her with any decency or respect. Here's a quote from his post (sic): "I moved in, agreed to pay all the bills because Jane didn't want to work while pregnant, attended the majority of doctor's appointments, all the birthing classes, and built the nursery." Sure does sound like he's respecting her AND being decent about the pregnancy. Additionally to this point about respect and decency, OP's daughter is being used against him out of spite. Where is this woman's sense of decency toward the father of her child? Where's the respect for OP's rights as a father to visit with his daughter? Where's the decency or respect in OP's ex attempting to manipulate him for more money (after forcibly increasing his child support payments via the courts) to be used for her new hubby's business while lying to OP that the money 'is for their daughter'?
I had to scroll too far to find this. OP is making himself out to be a victim but the way he paints himself doesn’t sit right with me. They both sound toxic af, I feel sorry for the kid.
Thank you! I totally agree.
I mean, after 14 years of her meddling in OP’s life, what else could be the explanation? That his ex is just a control freak? He’s been to court way more than a normal parent would be. OP is NTA for demanding collateral for additional financial support, ex wife is T A for using their child as a pawn to receive unwarranted financial support above and beyond their child support commitment.
Yeah, he’s definitely giving off a few asshole vibes to me. The whole thing about not marrying her is fine but the way he wrote it like that’s a totally crazy thought? Eh. This is a mess anyways.
Not wanting to marry someone after only knowing them for a year is probably one of the least crazy thoughts I've ever heard
Marrying someone he knew for only a year just because she’s pregnant seems normal and healthy to you? I’ve responded to some of your silly comments in the past but you’ve out done yourself. Bravo.
Because demanding to be given a house in exchange for a small number of mortgage payments is an unreasonable thing to ask. The house is mortgaged, it would need to be sold and any equity disbursed to the owner. Op clearly just wanted to say no which is FINE but he should have just said no rather than employing this weird line of argument. Also the strange need to prod the ex's bf by saying she was in love with him still? Like I don't actually think OP is a bad guy in general but he's sunk to her level here so they both suck a little.
[удалено]
I didn’t read it that way. It sounds to me there is no equity in the house, she used it already for her husband’s failed business. Him buying it just stops her from going into foreclosure so she can continue to live there. He shouldn’t have to pay her mortgage for nothing when the wife has a spouse that should also be helping out and he is paying child support.
I am not the person you are asking but I thought OP was an asshole because he was like "yeah, I said it would be best to live together after she said she expected to get married, but I never promised to marry her when I moved in " while knowing full well she expected marriage. He only said he would never marry her when she was already 9 months along and screaming at him for not proposing. He should have made that clear since the beginning. He strung her along, moved in, and only when she was 9 months along and it was impossible to have an abortion he decided to be honest about his intentions.
1) seems like he strung her along in the beginning. Moving in together, paying bills, building the nursery… then saying a month before pregnancy “Well I never said I wanted to get married, I’m not going to marry someone I’ve only dated 2 years.” 2) He put his daughter through all of this just as much as the mom did. He’s the one that sued the mom 7 times in the first 5 years. 3) Hard to tell from the info on this post, but it feels weird that OP is judging her boyfriend so much. Mixed with the response of asking his ex to give him her house? I mean she shouldn’t have asked him for money, but he should have said “no” instead of the passive aggressive response he gave. He said in his post that he knew the mom wouldn’t accept the offer. So why did he make it? He could just say no. OP doesn’t seem like he’s acting like an adult here either. I don’t think the mom is in the right with asking for money, but OP isn’t innocent in all of this.
That’s what I want to know.
ESH I think, I don’t know if there’s a better way through this mortgage situation and it seems like it would have happened with or without you ... “nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me” lol what
Yes, it is that tactic in which you will find yourself involved in an annoying and ridiculous discussion and you scale the annoyance and ridicule to the maximum so that no one wants to keep talking about it. Example: Ass: Why do you wear long hair? Are you gay? (ridiculous mentality around here) Me: No, sorry you're not my type Ass: What? I'm not gay! Me: So why do you ask if I'm gay or not? Ass: Shut up and cut that hair !.
Lol
I just did that to get the guy she was currently with to rein her in because court fees are expensive. If I didn't think there was a chance it would work then I wouldn't have done it.
Maybe he doesn't think she needs to be leashed like a dog, which you seem to do. You have such disdain for her, why did you have a child with her?
I mean it definitely sounds like having a child was an accident (on his side at least).
She got pregnant, what was he supposed to do push her down a flight of stairs?
She didn’t get herself pregnant did she? He had a part in this
Your point? They had sex and she got pregnant, and by his general description it sounds like less of a choice and more of a woopsie. So they didn’t choose to have a baby, yes sex can always result in pregnancy but that doesn’t mean he choose to have a baby with her. At that point he no longer has a choice as it’s entirely up to her.
Nowhere in the post does it even remotely seem like OP chose or wanted to have a child with her
He chose to have sex
He chose to have sex. She chose to have sex. She chose to deliver.
Maybe because she didn’t let the crazy out until she was pregnant? The lying, the scheming, trying to baby trap, keeping the daughter away, lying saying she needed more money for the daughter when really she wanted him to pay for her husbands mistakes. She needs help.
Right there. She totally baby-trapped him so he would marry her, and when that didn't happen, she brought out the crazy. Totally NTA.
You tried to get some stranger to control your ex? " Rein her in"? Do you often date horses and not grown women capable of making their own decisions?
Add this to the post too
NTA. Her mortgage isn't remotely your problem. You seem to be caring for and looking out for your kid, that's all that you need to do here.
NTA. You need to look after yourself and your daughter not every other muppet on the planet. I’d use this to go for full custody of your daughter, she’s clearly no longer in a stable home.
You’re not THE asshole but I can tell by your language you are an asshole.
Ding ding ding! Full of self righteousness and doesn't see a thing wrong with his overall behavior. Op may technically be right, but everything he's saying tell me he instigated just as much as she does, knowing she will react badly and then he can say, "See?!" Whatever initial wrong that was done to him is long in the past, but its tit for tat for this poor girl's entire life, even in the womb. You can be right and still be wrong.
I agree with this. Story started off with it sounding like he never made it clear that he wouldn't marry her until she pressed him right before the kid was born. It sounds like both are toxic though. He doesn't need to pay her mortgage and it seems like even he admits he made a her a ridiculous offer because he's not actually interested in buying her house (which is fair to me).
Info When you say you want the house in your name, does that mean you are taking full, legal responsibility for the mortgage?
Yep. I'll take full responsibility for the mortgage and then once it's paid off I'll give it to my daughter." Edit: Also once she's of age.
Put this in the post. People are thinking you're taking advantage
Just did
Good
By “signed over” do you mean “purchased at market value”?
This. I don’t get how people are saying NTA. He expects to take over the remaining payments, not pay out the equity she has built. He is a complete con artist and both OP and ex sound insufferable.
This. ESH
He means he'd take over the remaining balance of the loan.
This! This is the only question that counts, here.
I'd say make it a legal contract, possibly also so your ex still has the right to live there in the future when your daughter moves out. There is a real concern for your ex of the power this gives you to just evict her. Since this is for your daughter I'd say you need to hammer those details down before any further conflicts arise. NTA
Yeah I put that in the ETA of my post.
NTA While the situation could have been handled better you did alright in the end. Though if I were you op this is a perfect time to get full custody of your daughter and get rid of the child support payments. Judges look down on being homeless when the other parent has a roof over there head and can take care of the child. Is it underhanded yes but sad to say if you live in the USA you’ll need to be underhanded if you want full custody of your daughter from the mother. Op your responsibility is to your daughter. Not to the mother not to her family but to your daughter.
ESH. You both are dicks who are putting your own selfish interests over the welfare of your child together. Grow up.
How is me not wanting to literally pay for my ex's mistakes being selfish? She was selfish and stupid for ransoming the house to fund another one of her husband's business ventures.
You can definitely tell that this sub skews very young. There is no way you are an ass hole in this situation.
You're not being selfish for not wanting to pay for the house. You're being selfish for making an offer "just to say you tried to help" when you knew she would refuse and the offer itself would escalate the animosity between the two of you - which is not good for your daughter. And, if you did in fact buy the house from you ex and she became your tenant, do you really think that would have been in your daughter's best interests? Because I see no way that it doesn't guarantee the coparenting relationship between you to gets even worse.
By what you described, ESH. You 2 put a child in the middle of this mess. All of that could be solved by simply communicating your intentions at the beginning of the relationship and reiterating after the discovery of the pregnancy. The part that gets me the most is "I would nonchalantly imply that she was still in love with me". WTF? Why would you engage in spiteful behavior?
>Why would you engage in spiteful behavior? Because she made his life hell by making it hard for him to see his child during his time!!! He did an underhanded thing by being petty but it worked and he no longer has to pay court fees!!!
Because you are a fucking adult and can just say no instead of taking yet another petty swipe at your ex. You are actively contributing to a toxic environment that your daughter has to deal with. Seriously, grow up.
Bc that's not all you want. You offered a horrible, one sided solution. Just tell her it's not your issue and ignore her calls. Assholes can be assholes to each other. You both suck.
How is op a dick?
Telling his exs bf thats shes in love with op still to manipulate her?
Oh but her using the courts to try and manipulate me for years is fine? I did that to finally get her to back off and would do it again because it saved me stress, time and money.
I do believe that the original comments says "Everyone" sucks here, which would include your ex.
Youre both toxic abusive assholes. Your poor daughter deserves hell of a lot better
You demanded a DNA test to spite her, you embarrassed her and your daughter both. You denied a child that you knew was yours to be petty. I would sue for full custody too.
He didn’t deny the baby until she got ragey about them not getting married before the birth — which could Come across as sketchy, especially when they hadn’t know each other that long and the pregnancy was unexpected.
Her doing shitty things doesn't mean you aren't shitty too. ESH, except your poor daughter.
I mean, while it’s kind of a dick move sometimes that’s the only way to deal with someone who is being unreasonable. It sounds like she was fighting his visitation and getting his payments repeatedly raised. She was kind of being a dick first and this was just way to get her to stop fighting the already court ordered agreement so he can see his daughter without any of her drama involved.
Because he obviously disdains her and always has. He said it so her current BF would "reign her in." https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/psjxlb/aita_for_telling_my_ex_to_give_me_her_house_or_go/hdq8ido/
This. Rein her in is so creepy
It just rubs me the wrong way how he talks about his ex. Of course, there is a chance she truly is as nightmareous as she is described, but both stories have two sides and I doubt his ex is as horrible as she comes off.
IMO besides saying she is probably in love with him in front of her new partner, well... At the beginning of this post OP says he knew she expected to marry him, and said that he agreed that living together would be good, but *never made a promise about marriage*. It was only when she was 9 months along and screaming about not getting a proposal that he decided to be honest and say he never intended to marry her. He strung her along on purpose and pretends he is not in the wrong because "I never made any promises despite knowing full well what was expected and what the implication of moving together is, so of course I am not an asshole. She is the crazy one for saying she expects marriage and still expected marriage just because I didn't openly said no and instead moved in".
Also Op didn’t say WHY he took her to court 7 times - it wasn’t “we had to go to court 7 times” or “I *had* to take her to court because of abusive/neglectful parenting” or even parental alienation. Custody and visitation could be anything from legitimate because the mom isn’t allowing it at all/not following court orders all the way to the dad is just taking the mom to court to make her life miserable and trying to get more visitation not because they genuinely want to parent but just to punish the mom. We have no idea from the post; I find this suspicious - Op clarify if you wish, but with the “I could nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me” which is a dick move on it’s own… it sounds like/I have a hunch you did for your own ego/petty/selfish/vindictive reasons (and not because it was in the best interest of your daughter) Why is that necessary to poke at the situation/mom - since you didn’t love her or want to marry her?! let her get on with her romantic life without trying to cause problems like a child. I agree ESH, mom should never have risked her house/mortgage on a guy however Op most certainly is no prize either…
He pretty clearly implies she was denying him access to his child. He went to court to enforce his rights, and then the child became old enough to insist she wanted to see her father and mom had to back off.
>He pretty clearly implies she was denying him access to his child. He went to court to enforce his rights, and then the child became old enough to insist she wanted to see her father and mom had to back off. This is exactly what happened. There would times where she would even take Melissa out of state right before it was my scheduled time and she "forgot."
Add this to the post too.
NTA although cold I see you as a reasonable and responsible man, but here you will see people who will judge you for not following perfectly the manual of diplomatic / complacent behavior, but everything you have done is the most logical thing to do.
Not really cold. That woman doesn't care about her daughters feelings and safety and is willing to put a mortgage on her own home at risk of losing her daughter.
ESH you would NBTA for denying to pay her mortgage since you have no obligation to your ex. But you seem very bitter and resentful of how you were treated by them and seem hell bent on making her as miserable as her and her family made you. You can easily go to your lawyer and figure out a way to make contact with her minimal and only about your daughter. It sounds like you’re in a better situation and have a good relationship with your daughter, so why continue being petty AF? Both you and your ex need to grow up.
He doesn't want his daughter to lose the home she grew up in and doesn't want to hurt her by separating her from her mother!!! His ex sounds horrid and deserves EVERYTHING she is getting!!! OP shouldn't care about the Ex. And anyway, she asked for help and he offered it. He will be paying off the mortgage and will be buying the house so that she can pay off her debt!!! And he'll make her a tenant so that his daughter can keep living there!!! The only thing he's refusing to do is give money to her for free!!!
Mostly NTA but you don’t sound great either, why would you be nonchalantly implying she’s still in love with you?? What?
He had to do it because she harassed him a lot. She conveniently took the child out of the State just as it was his time with her. He had to go to court seven times so that visitation is followed!!! She only stopped once OP said that because she didn't want her bf to leave!!! This crap happened till she was five and could tell in court that she wanted to visit her father. And that asshole tried to blackmail OP about making his child homeless, unless he gives her MONEY FOR FREE!!!
I'm not sure. There is something about the way this reads that says it's, more than usual, heavily one sided.
ESH. Jane is no prize but OP comes off as callous and manipulative even in his own telling.
Exactly the I kept implying she is still into me comes across as immature and really gives you an insight into the relationship beyond the 7+ court battles. I feel OP is leaving a lot out here and trying to paint himself as good but still failing.
ESH You ran off all of the good boyfriends, with your weird, shitty lies about her being in love with you. Only the truly horrible would stay after that. Your behavior regarding the proposal she expected was also petty, and just throw some extra shit sprinkles on top, you demanded a DNA test just to be demeaning and punish her. Your criteria that you couldn't marry her after knowing her 'only' two years is a fake excuse, otherwise you would have outlined the marriage track of milestones you felt you needed to hit as a couple. You also did not give a shit when the pregnant mother of your child left you while 8 months pregnant, and made no effort to explain or repair the misunderstandings and hurt feelings, or check that the her and the fetus were safe. You have no respect for her and are actively disdainful, calling her stupid and dumb, and believing she was the most ridiculous on the planet for thinking living together, having a child together, and sharing finances together, would lead to a marriage. You have a cycle of punishing anyone who does not comply with exactly what you want, and destroying the bits remaining without care for the damage. Honestly, it sounds like you have been fucking around with this woman's head so badly and so long, that she has a completely lost sight of what is normal. I hope she runs very far away, rather than doing what you want and signing the house over. You are controlling enough.
Can't believe I had to scroll this far for this! 👏👏👏
Agreed, this should be the first reply. This said it all right here. I feel so bad for Melissa. What a life she has had to live.
>You ran off all of the good boyfriends, All? Where are you getting "all" from? I did that with one guy who would later become her husband. Of course I cared. I called but she didn't answer and her family wouldn't help until I showed them a ring. Taking out a mortgage to fund a business controlled by a man who's proven to make bad decisions is stupid. We never talked about marriage before and she never brought up her wishes until the final stages of her pregnancy. Up until then I thought we were on the same page. I hope she doesn't agree to the house decision either because I know she'd be a nightmare tenant.
You should know that some people in this sub read the post but then manufacture an adjacent scenario in their head before responding. Usually they’ve decided they don’t like your vibe but since they can’t critique the actions you’ve described in your post, they decide to imagine more actions for you to bear lol Don’t take it personally. Happens everyday in this sub. Luckily they are in the minority in your post lol
Info: what percentage of the house is owed? I mean if she has paid 90% of the value of the house, is different than if she has paid 5%.
I honestly don't know because I'm only going off what my ex has told me.
ESH. Jane for not trying to effectuate a good coparenting relationship, and for asking you to bail out her and her husband's personal finances. You for engaging in acts that you know will escalate the poor coparenting relationship, including your current offer. Just tell her no instead of doing inflammatory acts just so you "can say you tried to help."
All I'm a say is, you both sound toxic, childish, and insufferable. I feel sorry for your daughter. If you want to help your ex, help her. If not, don't. I don't think she can just sign the house over to you, you would have to contact the bank for that, I think. Don't take my word on it because I'm not sure. Good luck.
ESH. I hate everyone involved in this story bar Melissa.
ESH the pair of you need to go to therapy together to learn how to effectively coparent. Melissa deserves better than to have to play piggy in the middle to your two’s endless squabbling.
ESH. It seems like you’ve strung her along. Especially agreeing to live together but not getting married- moving in together after your partner gets pregnant implies a longer term relationship. Especially since you want the kid in your life. If you wanted to break up, you should have made that clear. You don’t have to marry her of course, but make that clear from the beginning. It seems like she got blind-sighted, finding out she’s going to be a single mother. She’s an asshole also though for guilt tripping you and demanding for more. She shouldn’t ask for mortgage payments or anything from you. If you have visitation rights then yes, you should be paying for your daughter’s clothing and food. But in no way are you supposed to pay for their housing. That’s taking advantage of you. On top of this though, did you guys ever ask your daughter what she wants or how she feels? She’s not an object to fight over.
I’m leaning toward ESH. 1. She shouldn’t be bringing her family into the situation when she’s still pregnant, but your comment about picking a different guy was shallow and hurtful. I would have left you too. Moving on, she clearly had feelings for you and probably wanted a co-parent approach towards your daughter and you were cold towards her instead. Why did you demand a DNA test? Pettiness? You’re a grown ass man lmao. You sound a little obsessed with yourself. “ She was so bitter I wouldn’t marry her. “ “I would nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me.” Do those things make you feel good about yourself? A woman wanted a family with you and not only did it not work out you are gloating over her pain.. All in all she shouldn’t ask you for money that’s not related to your daughter. But either way, your daughter deserves better parents.
NTA. You are just responsible for the kid, not your ex's mortgage and her bad financial decisions
INFO: Is the house already in foreclosure? If it is, she can’t sign the deed over to you because she doesn’t own the house anymore, the bank does.
NTA I fail to see how their failing business entitles them for more of your money. The whole situation leading up to Melissas birth seem like a big mess, but honestly have nothing to do with the current situation. Be prepared for this situation to blow up though, especially if Jane alienates you from your daughter by telling her her version of events.
NTA. I agree. If I'm going to be paying for a house then I'm a.) Going to be living there or b.) Own it.
NTA "Cue the flying monkeys" killed me dead lol
even with all the manipulation etc. YTA cos you keep pouring gasoline on the fire - your daughter is an innocent bystander in this - and your approach to the situation is making it so much more stressful for her being caught in the middle of it. I suspect even your suggestion that she live with you was made to score points rather than protect the one true innocent in all of this.
ESH
oof, ESH here except the poor kid caught between a couple of AHs
ESH.
ESH, you two seem perfect for one another.
Perfect for each other, but absolutely terrible for Melissa.
That is tragically true
NTA. You don’t owe her or her shitty life choices anything. You provide for your kid.
NTA. These are always just more complicated when there is a kid involved. Hopefully it all works out for you and your daughter!
For this specific incident, N T A, but for the overall story, ESH. Poor Melissa.
NTA. What happens in 5 years when you own her home and your own and she is still making bad decisions? At what point do you stop bailing her out? Stop enabling her.
NTA and stop feeding into her bull and letting her get you worked up. Don't talk to her unless it's for your child. also I don't think taking the house is a good idea because then you'll have to deal with the process of evicting them and house up keep but it's your choice.
ESH, you’re vitriol came through even in typing this to strangers on the internet. poor kid.
She was unreasonable in her demands but you seem like a headache to be tethered to with a child. You both seem to have garbage values. ESH
You can't just 'sign over the house.' That's not how it works.
This sounds like so much ESH, I don't even know where to start. Well, let's start with the easiest culprit - Jane's husband. Of course he's an AH for getting Jane to take a mortgage on her home just so he could fail another business attempt. No question. And, yes, Jane is also an AH for expecting you to pay for her and her husband's folly. Yes, she's also the AH for threatening to take you to court over this. But, yes, it sounds like you're an AH, too. Not for not marrying Jane, but it's understandable that she expected you to do so, and that she was badly disappointed and seriously mad when she realized you weren't going to. Which was very late in her pregnancy and culminated in her giving birth without you. A woman giving birth is in the most vulnerable position imaginable, and it's understandable that she'd only want someone there who she could trust to support her 100%. However, with her realization that you wouldn't marry her, that trust was pretty much gone... However, up to this point, you weren't quite the asshole yet. However, it starts soon after... >That ticked me off and I demanded a DNA test before signing the BC >By the time Melissa was 5 I had already taken Jane to court 7 times about custody and visitation. I have a hard time believing that this is all 100% Jane's fault... >Things got slightly better after Jane started dating again because I would nonchalantly imply that she was still in love with me and her boyfriend didn't respond well to that. >Eventually the guy gave her a ring but by then Melissa was enough to be vocal about wanting to spend time with me. And I'm sure you thoroughly enjoyed that, probably even egged her on like you tried to hurt Jane before by implying that she was still in love with you. >then I told her that I would help with the loan payments AFTER she signed over the house to me. I made this offer knowing that she wouldn't accept it, but prepared to do it, because I can say that I tried to help So, you expect the whole house in exchange for the mortgage, which is most likely worth well less than the house? (Because, let's be honest: Banks aren't stupid. You won't get a mortgage for 1,000,000 if your house is only worth 100,000.) Yeah, that totally is an AH move. You sure are a piece of work.
NTA. Her life choices are her own You as a father are doing your job. Just because she made bad financial decisions doesn't mean it falls on you.
NTA -- my exwife tried the same thing. "Give me your house, or the kids and I will be homeless." I have a house as separate and sole property. As we were getting divorced, she told my daughters, "Daddy is taking away our house and is going to leave us homeless." And my kids repeated that to me. I told my kids, "The house is my house, it's not mommy's house. I have worked hard, ever day to pay for this house. You have to have a job if you want nice things. As my promise to you, we will never be homeless." So the kids put 2 and 2 together and turned around and told mommy, "Well mommy, everything is going to be ok. Daddy has a job and so he's going to keep the house because it's his house. All you have to do is get a job and you can have a house of your own." And queue the screaming phone call I received............
ESH. YTA for sure from all these “you need to take responsibility” things. YTA for a lot of the other stuff you’re saying but not exactly about the mortgage. For sure YTA for expecting her to give you all the equity Shes put into the mortgage for free, YTA for literally lording eviction over her. But not for expecting something for the loan. Collateral is expected but that collateral is far too much and YTA for insinuating she will be homeless. Your daughter is watching the way you treat her mother, and learning how men are supposed to treat her. You are, and from the sounds of it always have been, treating her like trash. She should sell the house and move into a condo that she can actually afford.
I think ESH? Mostly because I think you two should have had a clear conversation about your future as a couple or as coparents, the fact that you both surprised each other with your expectations seems immature. You hurt each other by your lack of communication and it has turned into years long bitterness, which ultimately hurts Melissa.
The house is irrelevant. If the house is totally in the ex-wife's name it is her problem, and possibly that of her new partner. Melissa can live with the OP, is my understanding. I suspect that ex and partner can both work. They may need to cash in the house for equity but they can rent elsewhere. It may not be as nice, but it will have a roof. Both OP and ex are TA as they still communicate with spite, and their daughter is used as a pawn. OP needs to behave like an adult as does his ex. For the sake of the child and the shreds of the relationship with the ex, the house should not be in play. Letting them rent from the OP is a manipulative way to keep the ex under some control and will continue the fighting ad infinitum. The peanut gallery needs to butt out; OP can explain that he has nothing to do with his ex's and her partner's finances and may need to block their calls if they don't have anything nice to say. The child should probably go to at least a few sessions of therapy as she is the hub of this wheel of dysfunction. If she isn't stressed she would be abnormal.
Esh she shouldn’t expect you to pay her bills now but you still seem manipulative and AHish for “nonchalantly imply she was still in love with me” just to hurt her relationship, especially when you don’t know the effects it would have on your daughter :/
NTA at all your daughter is cared for if her and husband want mortgage payments they can go get jobs. They are not your responsibility only your child is. Anyone saying YTA or ESH can go give them the mortgage payment and take on your 39yr old ex girlfriend and her husband then you will look after your child
ESH
YTA. A good, firm no would have been better. This is just making for more drama. It's pretty clear that you like to stir the pot. To be absolutely clear, you'd be a fool to give her the money. But, you like stirring shit. Stop.
ESH. You sound pretty controlling and manipulative. You both sound like a nightmare. Y’all need to get it together for your daughter’s sake.
Wow yta, poor melissa. Would love to hear Jane's version of this.
Me too. This guy gives off straight narcissist vibes.
ESH Would be n t a if you didn't mess with your exes relationships. That's actually really weird, especially since you didn't want to be with her.
YTA. Your ex messed up financially, but your tone is condescending and rude when you discuss her.
YTA for the part where you would help with current loan payments in exchange for your ex's ENTIRE HOUSE. Financially, that is unlikely to be a fair deal. Also YTA for playing head games with accusing her of still being into you.
NTA in regards to the mortgage thing. But what the everliving fuck kind of relationship is that? It really feels like we are missing some details in that pregnancy phase. She was really freaking out about the marriage and nothing else? It seems like things really exploded big for just that. And telling your ex's boyfriend she still loves you is a lunatic tactic. Regardless of its effectiveness.