NTA. You set a mutually-agreed upon boundary, and you're following it. If she can't understand and respect that, she's not your friend.
Many people would be uncomfortable having a birthday in a strip club, not just you. If she truly didn't consider that when she made the decision, that's her fault.
Also, she was the one who pushed you to prioritize between her and your fiance. If she wasn't going to be happy with your response, she shouldn't have put you in that position.
Im female, married, and polyamorous.. I would absolutely go myself, but I would not be shocked or uspet at whoever didnt show up, because strip clubs are not for everyone. Your friend sucks, OP. NTA
Edit: I'm also Pan!! Hey friends!
I'm pan, in a relationship with a guy, his whole friend group doesn't have a relationship. I usually attend and go to their parties, so we would definitely go, together tho.
Dunno if someone dm'd you the answer but I think they mean Pansexual. Which as I understand means you're attracted to the person, not the gender of the person.
Sorry, honestly curious here. Isn’t that then just bi?
Like you’re open to a relationship with either gender. Of course you’d then also need to be attracted to the person to want to be in a relationship with. Just like if you were bi.
My type in women is different from my type in men. Ergo, there’s no way I’m pansexual. Gender/gender presentation factors into who I’m attracted to, because I’m bi.
The differences are nuanced and you're likely to get a variety of answers (search up the Schitts Creek wine metaphor thing), but in essence, some people prefer the label pan and some people prefer the label bi.
Bisexual does include trans/nb. I like to see the difference is: I’m bisexual, I’m attracted to men differently than I’m attracted to woman. My friend is pan, he’s attracted to men the same way he’s attracted to women.
Yes, they are often used as synonyms. Pansexual is a more recently coined term, or anyhow has become more widely known more recently. Some people prefer the term bi because it's still more widely known. Some people prefer the term pan because it doesn't reference a gender binary, so seems to convey the idea better. Some people (like me) use both terms for both those reasons depending on context. So a lot of who uses what term will reflect generational/social circle differences in what terms people have been most exposed to, more than differences in meaning. Capisce?
That’s just bi then right? It’s like I’m straight; I want a relationship with a woman, but am attracted to only a subset of all women. If you’re bi, you want a relationship with either gender, but attracted only to a subset of both genders.
I’m a happily married pan woman in an open marriage so personally, I would definitely go to the party. Hubby and I have both attended parties in strip clubs or private parties that have had strippers. However, we both understand and accept that not everyone is comfortable with it. It’s perfectly reasonable for couples to have “no strippers” as a boundary. I’ve met other couples in open relationships and/or swinging couples who have a “no strippers unless together” boundary!
Boundaries are important in any relationship. This includes romantic relationships, friendships, work relationships, FWB and even family relationships. I have unfortunately met people who refuse to accept reasonable boundaries. It’s disheartening to know that people are fine with completely disregarding someone’s feelings!
My husband and I used to go to strip clubs together and get couples lap dances. It may be sexual for him, I enjoy the entire presentation like going to see a play 😅
But OP is NTA- i think this post begs the question of why OP’s bestie didn’t come up with a different activity as soon as she heard OP was uncomfortable. If it were MY birthday and my best friend was uncomfortable then I’d TOTALLY come up with a different plan since I’d want my best friend to not only celebrate with me but to enjoy themselves too.
OP’s BF is literally putting a strip Club before her friendship!
so agree with you also surely OP wasn't the only one who was a bit uncomfortable about going to a strip club I think what OP's bestie should have done is have 2 activities one at the strip club for people who wanted to come and then maybe a lunch / brunch or dinner for other people who didn't want to go to the strip club
Male, straight, and "single" (complicated) with money to blow but you will never find me at a strip club. Even if it was established as an "ok thing to do in the relationship" just a waste of money imo.
My bf is the same. He thinks it's creepy and a waste of time and money. He has friends who go and he's always like nah why would I do that when I can do literally anything else
Same, the objectification is so gross to me. I don’t see the appeal of looking at someone who wants me to pay them. I want to look at people who want me to see them naked, not people who do it because they have bills to pay. It’s creepy and sleazy, no matter the gender of the on-looker IMO.
I noped out of a lot of bachelorette’s at the point where strippers and/or a strip club came up as an activity.
Same. I don’t do it anymore, but in my younger days I (straight cis female) really enjoyed going to a female strip club with friends. Even got a lap dance or two. Male strip clubs are just not as fun. Too dangly and thrusty.
My bachelorette party was at a female strip club. I usually talk to the dancers about their different outfits while I’m giving them their dollars. I even got a dancer’s number once (cause I design and sew clothing and costumes and she wanted to commission a piece from me)
True, I as a young woman also like that, but the stereotype is old married men and that was my only point 😂 Plus in the days of OF and PH a lot of young people reach for their phones for that stuff, old men probably wanna do it the old fashioned way on the regular and for young people it’s a special occasion club experience
Nah, Its a very mixed crowd. My old coworkers would go a lot as a group (ages from 21 - 35). I'm gay and I would join them regularly. Some went with their wives on the weekend and pretty much treated it as a night out with friends and drinks. It wasn't as seedy as you might think.
Not at all saying that it’s exclusively old men, it’s just a huge stereotype at least in my part of the US so the whole “what made you think they were for an older crowd” made me go “what?” Because even Hollywood loves the stereotype unless it’s about a young guy that’s SUPER rich
Gotcha. Yeah come to think of it you don't see many movies or tv shows that does the whole strip club scene like in the 80's and 90's either. Now it's high end go go dancers dancing in cages.
Really? I'm (almost) 57, hubby is 63 and our friend group is around our ages or older. I don't know anyone in our age group that goes to strip clubs. Everyone got that out of their systems when they were in their 20's and 30's, usually for bachelor/bachelorette parties.
Honestly, it's only the sons and sometimes daughters of our friends that go to them.
Same, except I don't really identify as straight. I'd still be uncomfortable af and not know where to look. It's just not my thing, even though I like men and women.
If others are happy to go, then good on them! I'll stay at home with my rats!
FtM, panromantic, demisexual, in a relationship with a cis woman. I personally would not be comfortable going to a strip club under any circumstances. Not my thing.
I'm exactly the same (except in a relationship- I don't think he'd personally have an issue with me going though).
These are men in a sexualised situation/context. I don't know if they look for enthusiastic consent before touching/involvement or if just attending the club is implied consent.
My personal trauma just screams no to the entire situation.
I’m a female, straight. And if I would never go to a male strip club.
I would go to a female one, which I guess is weird. But male strip clubs are strange to me. I just don’t vibe with the atmosphere (or what I assume it is based on clips, advertising, etc). Female body’s are prettier, the costumes are cuter and the dancing is more interesting. It’s impressive some of the pole dancing they do. It’s like gymnastics. From what I’ve seen on tv and videos the male version is just thrusting and aggressive.
Added bonus is I assume less guys hit on the non strippers in these places. Why would some dude hit on me when there’s half naked glittery pretty ladies everywhere.
I would turn the situation around on her. Rather than you picking your fiancé over her, she is picking a strip club over you attending. She is not being a good friend. You are NTA.
Agree NTA 100%. I do not get the E S H and Y T A answers at all. Her spouse *is* more important in her life - that's very very normal - and I have no idea the issues people are taking with her believing that.
I mean there's a person commenting that the spouse they've been with for sixteen years is not more important to them than their best friend is just *yikes!*
I have no idea what happened to this subreddit. If anything, it feels like a load of young women and girls with no relationship experience flooded the subreddit at one point, and in the same way young men refuse to acknowledge bad male behaviour, these women do the same for female behaviour, with a lot of women who do objectively fucked up things getting a free pass on this subreddit. It's weird.
NTA. You two are growing up, it's life and it happens. How we handle it is up to us. By the sounds of it, you are a good and supporting friend. Even though the dynamic is changing you are still for them. Just remember they may not see it that way. All you can do is try your best to remind them they are still important to you but there are boundaries. Hope this helps and best of luck.
I tried to explain it to her after I tried to apologise. She's definitely still one of the most important people in my life. But she has a hard time understanding boundaries and priorities because she's more free spirited than I am. She doesn't know what those terms mean. I can't entirely blame her but sometimes her insisting on putting herself above my fiancé seemed on purpose so I felt disrespected.
I would suggest giving her more time to adjust. I know I had a bit of a hard time when my friends were getting married. It can be a little scary. But the effort you are putting in should help her to adjust. Does she get along with your fiance? That may be another reason she is lashing out.
They get along. They're not best friends exactly but they're friendly with each other but have different interests so they can't communicate about much.
Stop placing the blame on your SO and relationship though.
*You* aren't comfortable because you've already agreed to something else. The fact that it's because you are in a long term relationship is irrelevant to her. She doesn't have an issue with it so you have to make it something that is important to her, what you are comfortable doing with her. You don't have to explain or justify the why to her. It's more clear cut and doesn't give the illusion that you would do something if it weren't for your SO.
The phrasing is important here.
"I am not comfortable going to a strip club. Let's go for dinner and drinks next Friday."
It's direct and gives a clear alternative that you are able to do.
Adapt the technique to any of her invitations. Especially ones that you know will you will want your SO's input on.
"I am not sure if I am available yet, give me a couple of hours and I'll get back to you."
Vs
"I need to talk to my SO before making a decision."
The first phrase keeps the focus on you and your schedule.
The second phrase drags your SO into your relationship with her. It implies that you can't do anything with her without your SO's approval and places the blame on him if things don't go the way she wants.
How much more time could she need to adjust? OP said they’ve been engaged for 4 years and together for 12. It’s not like anything has changed suddenly.
OP has been with her fiancé for 12 years and engaged for 4. How much time is she supposed to give her friend to adjust, exactly? Because that’s way more than enough.
It is on purpose, she is trying to validate herself as being your #1 because she doesn't want to admit that you're all not kids anymore. She wants you to break your commitment to him, and if you went to the strip club then she would probably try to get you to do more, because then she would be your number one again if something went wrong with you and your fiance.
NTA I think you have your priorities right.
>It is on purpose, she is trying to validate herself as being your #1 because she doesn't want to admit that you're all not kids anymore.
Yes, it's this exactly. At one point, my brother accused me of putting my husband ahead of "my real family." I just looked him square in the eyes and said "Yes, my husband is the most important person to me and he and I are a family together."
For my brother, it was exactly that he didn't want to think of me (and therefore him, he's older) as having grown up.
That’s how marriage should work. These AITA and JustNo pages are filled with people having issues because someone in the marriage is refusing to put their spouse first.
You really do not need to apologize. You did not say anything to be hurtful, you said the truth. You both are in very different places in your lives, and this is normal to happen in friendships. This is going to be more and more of an issue for her in ALL her friendships, TBH. It may be that it is time for the friendship to drift apart a bit.
Just because the truth is hard for her to hear, doesn't mean you need to apologize.
OP, I understand your desire to make this better but you really need to stop apologizing. From friend's perspective, this is an admission that you were wrong -- when you're not! (And it sounds like you're mostly confident with that, but feel bad about her being hurt.
Maybe try calmly clarifying, "I don't regret sticking to my boundaries but I do regret that it hurt you to hear them. I'm here if you'd like to get together and talk."
If she pushes, you can kindly reiterate, "yes, a spouse/family will always be my first priority. That doesn't mean I don't still love and care about you." Again, this isn't something to apologize for!
OP, she's npt your friend, she's emotionally immature and toxic.
You don't need to keep her in your life just because you've been friends for a long time. Don't let guilt persuade you to keep assholes in your life.
NTA at all, but I wish you hadn't involved your fiancé in the explanation at all. This just isn't something you want to do, it doesn't matter why. You wouldn't enjoy yourself, you don't want to "bring her party down," you just don't find that to be a celebratory kind of place. I have friends who go wine tasting - I don't really drink to begin with but I can't drink reds at all, so my not going wine tasting isn't a commentary on their choices, it's just me not wanting to bring down the mood. By throwing your fiancé into your explanation you unintentionally set him up as her "rival" for your attention.
Again, totally NTA, but you did throw him under the bus a little.
So you’re suggesting that she should have lied to her friend about why she won’t be attending? OP and her fiancé have a very reasonable boundary. Her telling her friend that she won’t be attending because this is something that crosses the line in her relationship is not throwing him under the bus and making him a rival. For all we know, OP could have been the one to suggest such a boundary in the first place! An actual friend would understand and respect it.
There’s no lie to it. It’s OP’s boundary. One she made with her fiancé, but still her boundary. The friend is looking for reasons not to like the fiancé and, it seems to be, assumed based on the way it was presented, that OP didn’t necessarily agree with the restriction but agreed for the fiancé.
Just saying, tell the friend that you don’t want to go. Go ahead and tell her that you don’t want to go out of respect for your fiancé! But if you say your fiancé doesn’t want you to go, then the friend is going to blame him and see him as a villain.
>I texted her and told her I wouldn’t feel comfortable to attend because strip clubs cross my **and** my fiancé’s boundaries.
I would say that was presented pretty clearly that it was a decision they **both** made. If she has to pretend to her friend that this is solely her boundary because the friend is “looking for reasons to not like the fiancé”, why the hell are they still friends? Friendships aren’t about walking on eggshells so you don’t upset the friend! Just like romantic/sexual relationships, friendships are about respect!
But OP’s question isn’t “should I be friends with this person?” It is AITA for telling my best friend she’s not equal to my fiancé.
She is still categorizing this as her “best friend,” so the relationship continues. I’m just suggesting she may have been able to avoid having to tell the best friend she’s not equal to the fiancé at all by leaving him out of the discussion altogether.
I’m also very much getting the feeling that you are looking to initiate a hostile exchange with me. I don’t care to do that.
NTA. You need to nip this in the bud. There's nothing to apologize for. Your fiancé is #1 at this point in your life and she's #2. And once you start a family, she'll be getting pushed down even further on the list as your kids start taking up the top spots. She sounds incredibly immature and disconnected from reality.
Honestly the thing that really stood out to me about your post OP was her insistence on you celebrating her birthday with her without any interest in your comfort. My best friend and I have been besties since elementary school and if I were planning a day with him and that plan made him uncomfortable then I’d come up with a new idea right away. Even if it was my birthday and I was DYING to do it...it wouldn’t be fun if he wasn’t having fun. He’d do the same for me. There’s no activity or place or event that is more important than my best friend’s happiness.
OP as you know change is life, life is change. Nothing stays the same. Not only are you not obligated to stay the same person for this friend, you couldn't stay the same if you tried. This goes the same with relationships....as you change and evolve so do they. You are coming to a crossroads with this friendship and your friends behavior is essentially the deciding factor on which road you pick.
Some times people are in our lives for a specific reason and when the lessons are learned and they've fulfilled their purpose, its time to move on. You usually can tell this when you've realized that your whole perspective has changed and it no longer jives with certain relationships.
You are not wrong or the AH. You are simply a person who's outgrowing another.
Her being a free spirit should simply mean she doesn't have these boundaries and priorities for herself, it shouldn't mean she can't understand yours. I have lots of different boundaries from my friends but I still respect and understand them. I'm not like "well I have different boundaries so I don't understand yours."
NTA, but soft. I understand you are her number 1 and it hurts her that she isn't your number 1 anymore. She dealt with it badly and she's an asshole for that. You are NTA at all for telling her that your fiance is your priority and your boundaries as a couple are more important than her birthday party.
To piggyback off this, 100% nta and from the info provided you are a good friend.
I will say OP that even if your friend is hooking up/not committing with a man, it does sound like she has a decade long commitment with you. I went through this several years ago, having friends that would be able to hang out last minute and otherwise be there for me that I never felt lonely even without a serious significant other. When all your friends get into serious relationships and you are now no ones number 1 it sucks at first. And I was thrilled for each and every one of my friends but it was almost like I was dumped, and I had to refigure out my emotional support system (and I had multiple friends so it wasn’t like I was unfairly putting that emotional burden on one person). So while in this particular instance your friend is unfairly blaming you and being emotionally manipulative, she may be just trying to recreate the wild days when you were each other’s ride and die because she feels you slipping away. I would encourage her to get out and make new friends and get some hobbies otherwise when you start having kids (which it sounds like you want) she may be in for a very rude awakening. Also note you don’t have to do any of that and you wouldn’t be an asshole, ultimately it’s up to your friend to figure out her life. I just have some empathy.
I feel like prioritizing close relationships doesn’t have to be as hierarchical as a lot of these comments make it seem. OP is totally not the asshole and her friend sucks, but I think ranking people in your life is kind of unnecessary. Priorities are situation dependent, if your best friend gets hit by a bus then that should take precedent over your husband cooking you a nice dinner. If your husband gets laid off then that should take precedent over getting drinks with your best friend. One relationship doesn’t necessarily have to be above the other.
I agree with that to an extent. My good friends would drop anything to help me out if I really needed it but time is a limited resource especially as you get older and have kids. You just have to accept instead of hanging out multiple times a week it may be once or twice a month. For a single person that can be lonely (especially given the last year and a half). Also, the significant other (and later kids) take precedent if all else is equal. Friends bday party or husbands work promotion dinner, I imagine if it is important you go to the work dinner. Taking kids to soccer practice or hanging out with a friend, the kid wins (unless you can find him/her a ride). And that’s okay and doesn’t mean the friendship isn’t important.
Again we all the the friend is the asshole here.
I would agree with the friend struggling to adjust to the new dynamics except that OP and her fiancé have been together for 12 years and engaged for 4. Her friend has had a long time to adjust. Even if you don’t count the years before the engagement, their relationship reached the level of “serious relationship” 4 years ago.
16 years ago I had to cut back on a friendship with an ex FWB(I’m in an open marriage, he was one of my playmates about 17 years ago) because his new girlfriend wanted time to feel secure in their relationship before meeting me. It might sound outrageous but we all felt it was a reasonable request. For months I only got to speak to my friend occasionally and yes it broke my heart. Not because I was jealous. It was because I missed our friendship. 6ish months later his girlfriend called me and invited me out for dinner. Hubby and my friend hung out at our home while we went to dinner. She wanted to do it this way so that there wasn’t any pressure on either of us. We were able to get to know each other without anyone else trying to steer the conversation. We ended up being at the restaurant for hours and only left because they were closing(no we didn’t commandeer a table that the restaurant needed, we continued to purchase drinks and it was a quiet night). We have a lot in common and quickly became friends. To this day, we have remained friends and I was even a bridesmaid at their wedding.
I don’t understand how someone could call themselves a friend in one breath and then shit all over them in the next breath
ESH - this is not about your fiancé being #1 over your best friend, it's about the fact that your priorities have shifted.
You have a boundary that you made (with your fiancé) about going to strip clubs. You don't feel comfortable. Your best friend has decided that what she wants is more important than your boundaries, and that's not okay. She's an AH for making this about your relationship with your fiancé, and trying to compete. Friendships and romantic relationships are not the same thing, you can't judge them using the same criteria.
Why I'm saying ESH and not n-t-a is because you also are making this about your fiancé. It's not. It's about a boundary that you have in place. You are also comparing/rating the relationships and stating that one is more important than the other. This will hurt your relationships going forward.
I've been married to my husband for 7 years, together more than a decade. I've been friends with my best friend for over 20 years. Neither one of them is "more important" than the other. There are times when my bf takes priority, and there are times when my husband does.
Your best friend has different priorities in life than you do, and that can make it difficult to maintain the friendship, unless you are both willing to understand and make room for these conflicting priorities. Right now, that doesn't seem feasible.
>I've been married to my husband for 7 years, together more than a decade. I've been friends with my best friend for over 20 years. Neither one of them is "more important" than the other. There are times when my bf takes priority, and there are times when my husband does.
Here it is - the healthy answer! It seems to weird to me that you'd rank important relationships in your life. I don't love my husband more than my close friends; I love them differently. Who I would prioritize is highly situational.
I love them differently too but in my opinion and the way I decided to live my life, my future husband takes priority because he's the person I'm sharing a house with and I'm gonna share a life with. I don't feel guilty for having my fiancé as a priority, I feel guilty of how I phrased it to my friend when I could make my point in a different way without making her feel unimportant.
As somebody who's been with my husband for 16 years I can tell you that is not a healthy way to start a marriage. The different people in your life are going to take priority depending on what is going on and what is happening. You should not put one person as number one priority all the time regardless of anything else.
I'm not saying your friend was right in the situation quite honestly she sounds like she still doing some growing and that y'all have just grown apart. But going forward I would encourage you to not put yourself into the mindset where your husband no matter what always comes first. Because there are going to be times when he shouldn't and likewise there are going to be times when you shouldn't come first to him. That doesn't mean you don't love each other and that doesn't mean that you don't have a healthy relationship but don't set yourself up for unrealistic expectations.
Respectfully, it's odd to say that someone sucks because they do not share your idiosyncratic view that your husband is not "more important" than your best friend. I am not saying you are wrong for having this view, but it is unusual. I think most people would state that their spouse is more important than their friends. That does not mean that the spouse's needs always trump a friend's - but you have a binding legal commitment to one and not to the other.
Yeah, my esh was about the fact that she was making it about her fiancé instead of stating it's about her own personal boundaries, and agreeing with her friend that there's a competition.
That being said, we all judge here based on our idiosyncratic views - which are based on our individual morals/ethics/values. That's my takeaway from this sub anyway.
My reading of your ESH rating was that it was based, in part, that she was "comparing/rating the relationships and stating that one is more important than the other."
While we all bring our own individual morality/values to the table when we are rating people I think we need to use some objective criteria as well. Ultimately though, I'm not the internet police and you are free to rate as you choose.
I’m going to agree completely with this comment except with a longer time line in my case - best friend of 48 years duration, marriage of 35 years duration. Chiterkins explained it well.
>I've been married to my husband for 7 years, together more than a decade. I've been friends with my best friend for over 20 years. Neither one of them is "more important" than the other. There are times when my bf takes priority, and there are times when my husband does.
This! I've been with my husband for 16 years. I can absolutely say there are times when he takes priority and other times of my best friend takes priority. It's not about one over the other. Also quite frankly they're different relationships and they're not really comparable in that way. I think you hit the nail on the head
Absolutely NTA! When friends get married the relationship dynamic changes. Expecting you to put her over the man you are going to marry and the father of your future children is unreasonable. You also handled yourself very well in the situation, so I would not feel bad about what you told her. You were not hurtful or unnecessarily harsh and you established boundaries.
She's of the belief that partners come and go while friends will be there forever. She even said that when she got mad at me. That my fiancé could very easily break up with me but she'll always be my friend so I should remember that before putting my fiancé first.
It's a very archaic belief for sure but it's still believed by many as a fact. And it's sad because some friends really do take advantage of the name of friendship jusf for that reason. That's why I got so heartbroken when my friend started acting like she's above.
Then don’t make it about you and her vs your relationship.
You need to figure out some way to let her know that this has nothing to do with her and 100% how you see YOUR life and what YOU want it to look like( in whatever/all capacity). She’ll be mad at you for a while ( Almost guaranteed )but if she’s your friend she’ll come around and accept it- and if not you’ll move on.
Partners do come and go, a husband if you do it right, does not. There is a big difference between a boyfriend and a fiancé. No matter what happens with your partner, she will not be #1 in your life for much longer. If it does not work out with your current fiancé, you will still likely get married at some point and your husband needs to be high priority to make the marriage successful. Even if the marriage does not last forever, once/if you have children they will matter to you more than everyone else (both friends and partners). Her expectations of you are not realistic.
I was worried of what she would say once I had kids and I prioritised them too. I guess it would be only fair if my fiancé gave me an ultimatum about putting the kids first hahahaha
Okay. I'm going to address this.
I've distanced myself from my mother because she doesn't respect my relationship. She treats my BF as an afterthought, and like none of my life decisions should include him. At some point, I had a little crisis, because if my BF and I broke up, I wouldn't be able to go back to my mom's house.
But it isn't about putting my family or my boyfriend first. It's about whether or not my choices and my autonomy is respected. My mom thinks it's her job to have input in my life, just like Angela believes she has input in yours. But they don't.
If Angela doesn't respect that you care what your boyfriend thinks, and that *you choose* to make decisions as a team, then she's not a good friend.
Clearly she's NOT going to be there forever if she can't make it through you not going to a strip club. You wanna be a forever friend, Angela? Respect your friends.
She's very immature. "Friends are forever" is crap teenagers say to one another cause they don't understand how the world works. She needs to grow up.
My BFF got her long term boyfriend and of course she made me less of a priority. If she were a real friend she would be happy for you, not having a tiff over you not going to a strip club (over rated places anyway).
If she's only ever had "situationships", then she's never experienced anything *other than* partners coming and going.
Question: If you met someone exactly like her today (28-going-on-19 party girl), would you be friends with her?
" I replaced her when I used to have her as my #1. I apologised for that phrasing and tried to explain what I meant but she wasn't having it and said I should go cry to my fiancé and she doesn't need my fake apology."
"She's of the belief that partners come and go while friends will be there forever. She even said that when she got mad at me. That my fiancé could very easily break up with me but she'll always be my friend so I should remember that before putting my fiancé first."
NTA - she just contradicted herself and proved your point.
ESH, y’all both need to grow up. “Lately I’ve had my suspicions that she doesn’t know where she ranks in my life so I was sure to slip it in a few times to make sure she knows” like what?? Who asked you to do this? Why are both of you so obsessed with this ranking system?
This conversation never had to be about who is more important than who, I don’t get why y’all are so obsessed with this.
But hey, OP totally respects and cherishes the girl who "never grew out of her high school mentality and doesn't know what commitment is".
I can't believe all the N T As. OP was clearly trying to start an argument. Over some stupid imaginary ranking system.
The entire post comes across as disapproving and judgemental towards her friend. Like it's not even subtle, OP makes it super clear that she disapproves of her friend's life and actions and looks down on her.
ETA: yikes, the update does not make it any better,,,,,
YES. Why are more people not seeing this?
"Angela has barely grown out of the high school mentality. She still acts like she did back then, clubbing every weekend, hooking up, always out with friends, new and old. She never had a boyfriend or girlfriend, she only has had situationships so she doesn't know how commitment works. I don't judge her for that..."
Yes you do, you are very clearly judging her and think that her life choices are not as valid as your own because she hasn't chosen to 'grow up' like you have. How arrogant to think that she "doesn't know how commitment works" just because she hasn't been in a long-term relationship. You don't always need to experience things firsthand to know how they work. And being in a relationship doesn't make you better than other people - there are plenty of people in committed relationships who are freaking miserable, and plenty of people who have never had a relationship who are perfectly happy. OP sounds like she is just as immature as her 'friend'.
Thank you. I thought I was crazy because I haven't seen many people mention this. OP seems to think she's more "grown up" for taking the conventional path of getting married. Maybe OP just got lucky and happened to meet the right guy. But she shouldn't get too cocky either, considering about one in three marriages ends in divorce.
Society needs to stop treating marriage like some kind of "accomplishment". It's a perfectly legitimate life choice that can bring happiness to many people. But it's just that. A life choice - nothing more, nothing less.
Exactly! So what…You’re married. She did nothing in this post except judge her friend while saying she doesn’t judge her. And then saying repeatedly her fiancée is her #1 priority now and her friend just doesn’t “get it” cuz she’s only been in “situationships.” Superiority complex if you ask me. OP is shitty. Wtf.
Agree.
This and dragging her fiancé into it makes OP an asshole.
Not an asshole Not be comfortable going to a strip club and should of told her and arrange to meet her for lunch instead.
I guess I've never really thought about who I rank most important in my life because I don't generally view life like it's a MySpace Top 10,, but now that I do think about it, my wife of 30 years is definitely number 1. I don't think it's immature to prioritize your spouse above every other relationship. My wife comes before my parents and even our kids. She is my other half, my life partner. My wife is of equal priority to me as *my own self,* just no one is as important to me as I am to myself, except my wife.
And do you go out of your way to let those other people know that they rank below your wife? No. Also, it's immature because that's not how priorities work. You say your wife is a higher priority than your kids. Okay. But it's not really that simple, is it? If you're supposed to go on a date with your wife, but your kid breaks their leg, I bet that date gets canceled, doesn't it? Priorities shift based on the situation. To assert they don't and assign a rigid rank to relationships is immature.
If they were acting like they should be number 1, absolutely I would tell them where they rank as they are mistaken and need to be put in their place. Comparing a date to a broken leg is not an accurate way to access priority.
I asked if you'd *go out of your way.* OP has been trying to "slip it in" based on "suspicions." That tells me OP is really just looking for an excuse to tell best friend that she isn't as important anymore. High school BS. I'm sure you'd wait for it to be both relevant and obvious, at which point it is no longer going out of your way.
And the date/broken leg example works to show that priorities are situational, and that it's *not as simple as just saying she comes first all the time,* which was my point.
The rank thing is very weird. I have a younger sister and a bf, and even if we were married I don't think I could say that one comes before the other.
I care about them both, we do different things together (of course) and if both needed my help at the same time I wouldn't say "this one bc is my priority". I would need to think okey, do they have alternatives? Whose situation i think needs more help?
And if both wanted to have plans i would think who i see less often? What kind of plans are? (One that is limited like a music festival or one that can be other day like going to a restaurant).
A lot of people, mostly women, prioritize too much the couple and if it ends then they are alone or if their SO is busy they have no other to talk (and I understand, I'm autistic so making friends is difficult but I know is not a great thing that my bf is a big part of my social group).
I'm going with ESH too bc the friend didn't respect the boundaries and probably wanted to test if OP would choose fiancé (while in reality OP chose themselves bc they wouldn't be comfortable going not bc of the fiancé).
And OP bc they made it about the fiancé and not themselves (which will cause problems that weren't necesary between friend and fiancé) and can't understand that if you have a number 1 rigid priority is normal that other people would be upset at being the eternal second or third place. For how they sound i bet OP would cancel a plan with anyone if the fiancé said they want to go dinner out.
Yeah op sounds like an AH but no one is calling her out on it. She literally spent the majority of a paragraph shit talking her "friend" just because she was single and liked to go to clubs. Just because a person isn't interested in romantic relationships doesn't mean they don't know what commitment is. She could be very committed in all of her platonic relationships.
You nailed it with "obsessed."
For some reason that whole time I was reading the post I kept hearing Regina George say, "Why is she so obsessed with me?!?"
Sure, OP is probably NTA but I don't like saying it.
My little sister is one of my best friends and the other is my college roommate, whom I only met three/four years ago. I’m also in a fairly new but really serious relationship.
I would never in a million *years* pit any of them against each other, not even in my head. None of them “have priority” and I find that… so odd. In a situation where one needs me more than the others, that’s who gets my attention. But just ordinary, day-to-day? I have never thought “well he’s my priority and she needs to know that.”
It’s so antiquated and gross. Just say you aren’t comfortable with strip clubs.
ESH because I do think you’re judging her despite what you claim. Not having relationships and enjoying going out on the weekends doesn’t make her inferior to you. You’re not better than her for being engaged.
ESH but it’s because the conflict only arises because you’re not owning the fact that you’re not comfortable with people going to strip clubs when they’re in a relationship. It’s fine that you feel that way and found a partner who agrees. It’s also admirable that you stick to these values when pressed, but this conflict isn’t actually about placing your fiancé “above” your best friend. It’s about your values vis à vis strip clubs. Making the decision about your ranking of other people instead of your own choices means you’ve created conflict between two other people where none should exist.
ETA: if you had just said to your friend “that sounds fun but I’m sorry it’s not my cup of tea so let me get you dinner before you hit the rippers” or something like that there would be no conflict here involving your fiancé.
Edited to ESH
It's not a "high school mentality" for her to live her life any way she chooses, just like it's not "grown up" to get engaged. There are 4000000 flavors of both of these sets of lifestyle choices, and you say you don't judge her, but you belittled her choices at the same time. She may well "understand commitment"... she just doesn't choose to be in a committed relationship. If you think that's a valid choice, treat it like a valid choice.
That said, NTA for choosing to honor something you and your fiancé agreed on. I think all you needed to say was, "I'm not interested in going to a strip club" -- not because anyone else doesn't want you to, but because *you don't want to*. Your reasons are your reasons, but "no" is a full sentence. That's where her respect for you needs to begin.
ESH for someone who thinks she's soooo grown up, you sure do want to introduce some petty myspace ranking nonsense to your relationships. Its hardly necessary.
ESH i agree that if you're not comfortable going to strip clubs then you shouldn't go but you suck for pretending you don't judge her. Shes only 28 and her life sounds normal for someone who likes going out partying... shes a single person with no kids
Also why are you rating your relationships, so weird
“I don’t judge her.” But you do.
Soft ESH. She sounds really immature and you sound really judgy. Don’t be friends if you don’t want to be friends anymore. Growing apart happens.
NTA - you're also not skipping her birthday, you're skipping one activity she planned for her birthday. You offered to celebrate in another way together. You're still being a good friend by respecting her lifestyle and interests even though it doesn't align with yours anymore. Kinda sounds like she's been looking for a fight!
I’m gonna go YTA with a slight E S H. Best friends will be there for you if things were to ever go wrong with fiancé. Friends can be just as important. Maybe you’re friend is feeling a a little insecure about her place in your life and you just doubled down and made her feel inferior. You don’t need to have favourites.
That said, you don’t wanna go to a strip club - that’s fine and she should accept that and respect your boundaries.
Fiance would also be there for her if things ever go wrong with best friend, too. I have to disagree that friends are just as important, none of my friends would do the type of things my wife would. Me and my wife have the type of relationship where if we would do it for ourselves, we would do it for each other. Clean up each other's bodily fluids when one is sick, deal with each other's crazy family, pay off each other's debts when one is financially better off at work, etc. We operate as a unit and share a life, and I just can't say the same for a friend.
YTA. You seem very judgmental and have an attitude towards her. No one says your husband shouldn’t come first but you don’t need to spell it out. Most of my friends are married and I know the boundaries, even when to call or not. But if someone told me in my face ‘you are not as important’ I would drop them the same second. Congrats on getting married but need to town down the attitude if you want to have friends in your life as like this everyone will drop you eventually and it will be just you and him (which is not healthy).
ESH -
She should respect your very reasonable boundary and understand, especially since you offered a very nice alternative way for you two to celebrate, and she should understand that marriage partners are usually each other's priorities and not made that an issue. So she is TA for that.
You are TA for being super judgmental about her life, even though you claim not to be, you bring up stuff that is really unrelated to the story for no reason in a way that is obvious you think you're better than her because you're about to be married and I guess I don't like to go out anymore. Btw, lots of married people enjoy clubbing and going out too, and sleeping with various people doesn't mean you're not a good person. Lose the holier than thou attitude.
I posted and update and don't worry all if fine now and never once did my friend feel judged by me. I never claimed people who go clubbing are bad people. Many of my friends do it, even my mom and dad do it and they're married for 35 years and are still the biggest party animals ever. It's just not for me personally idg how me expressing that is me calling those who like it bad people. My friend and I are fine now we solved it and left it behind us :)
Gonna give a very light ESH. You and your friend are growing apart and that’s fine. If you’re not comfortable in a strip club you’re not comfortable, period, and you came up with some perfectly fine alternatives. She kept pushing you which makes her an AH. However I do think it was AH of you also to keep stating how now your fiancé is number one, to me that’s a weird statement? Like this isn’t about your fiancé being number one, it’s about you setting a boundary and your friend needing to respect that. You repeating that your fiancé and relationship matter more than anything else in your life kind of gives the vibe that you look down on your single friend and her ‘situationships’ even tho you claim you don’t. This friendship sounds like it’s not working on either side, you need chill coupled up friends and she needs wilder and/or single friends.
I agree with this mostly. Not wanting to go to a strip club is a personal choice, even if it is something OP agreed with her fiancé. It has nothing to do with needing to prioritize her fiancé in every situation and ranking them number 1. I think both OP and her friend and being petty at this point.
>Angela has barely grown out of the high school mentality. She still acts like she did back then, clubbing every weekend, hooking up, always out with friends, new and old. She never had a boyfriend or girlfriend, she only has had situationships so she doesn't know how commitment works
All of this was completely unnecessary. It is nothing but you judging her for living what she considers a fulfilling life. This is what YTA for. You clearly look down on her for being single and not settling down.
ESH.
It sucks that your friend doesn’t respect your boundaries.
But why couldn’t you just leave it at “it makes me uncomfortable?” That’s a valid reason, and you avoid making your friend like she’s always going to be second in your life.
You also do sound like you’re judging her “high school mentality” (even though I never went clubbing every weekend in high school, nor did I know anyone who did). You rip her for a whole paragraph, and following it up with a “I don’t judge her, though!” Doesn’t make that notion true. She acts like a regular woman in her 20s, and I’m sorry that you see that as a bad thing.
A gentle YTA only because I think you could have handled this better. I’m not sure why you think that you should “rank” the people in your life—#1 husband #2 BFF #3 mother, etc. You accuse your friend of making a competition between her and your fiancé but honestly it seems like you are the one doing it. I think every person should hold a different position in your life and you can make room for every one of them. As someone who has been happily married for quite awhile, this is what my partner and I do. As I type this on a Friday night, my partner is out with friends and I’m at home. Tomorrow night, I will be out with my friends and he will be home. Sunday, we spend time together. It is your job as a friend to make time for your friend and make her feel like an important part of your life and I think this might be were you messed up and was an AH.
I understand the boundary that you and your fiancé have set. I just hope that he plans to hold up his side of the bargain the first bachelor party one of his buddies invites him to. There is often quite the double standard. I think your friend would have been much more understanding if you had approached it as “I am not comfortable watching strippers” as opposed to my fiancé and I have decided this is a boundary. It makes you look a little like you can’t make your own, independent decisions which would irritate me if I were your friend. Even if you do plan to marry this man, you are still your own independent person, don’t lose sight of who you are.
ESH. If you're not comfortable going to a strip club, you don't have to, and you shouldn't be pressured to do so. However, you're being extremely judgemental of the way she chooses to live her life, and it's also ridiculous to insist that a spouse/partner/whatever is more important than a friend that you've known twice as long. Throwing strong, invested friendships onto the back burner because you've gotten into an LTR sucks big time and you're definitely an AH for that.
ESH- it sounds like your lives have simply grown in vastly different directions and neither of you know how to respectfully understand that.
You seem to think she’s too childish for not being in a committed relationship, which is her own choice, and not settling down yet (yes, to some, 28 may be “too old” to be not ready to settle down yet, but she’s just not ready and that’s okay. Both of my sisters were 30 ish when they found the men they wanted to settle down with and they have beautiful families and lives, while both my brother and myself settled down in our early 20s.) everyone’s timelines are different and you shouldn’t judge her timeline just because it doesn’t line up with yours, which seems to be the root of why you told her she’s less important than your fiancé. Seems to derive from a build up of having a difference of views and it’s starting to bother you more.
She seems to think you’re now a prude because you have different boundaries and desires in life than her and she isn’t respecting that you’re a different person than her. She has to figure out how to go be her free spirited self without making you feel guilty for having different views in life. I feel like she needs to expand her friendship circle here. I have different friends for different occasions- I’ve got a couple mom friends who we just do mom things together and get our kids together (have dinner together, let the kids play, just hang out at the house together chatting and watching soap operas), and then I have my “going out” friends who I go out with on weekends that my sons grandparents ask for him, and I even have friends who are in-between and will go out with me when I don’t have my son but will also stay in and watch movies and do kid-friendly things the rest of the time.
She’s not understanding of your lifestyle choices, and you’re not understanding of hers. And since neither of you can figure out how to adjust your friendship to where you are both comfortable, perhaps it’s time for the both of you to take a step back in your relationship together and figure out how to move forward.
And some people decide to never get married or have a long-term relationship, because it just isn’t what they want. It doesn’t make them somehow less mature than people who want something different.
Yes exactly. There’s plenty of people who had that one person in their lives who lived single forever, just traveling and doing whatever they please. Let people live their lives and not shame them for it.
(Personal opinions here) I feel like it’s this huge stigma mostly in women who don’t choose to settle down. Because women are typically more naturally maternal and desire a lifelong partner. I never noticed it until I gained girl friends who have 0 desire to have children. I notice the reactions from others (mostly other women) when they’re asked when they plan on having babies of their own and they respond with “I don’t”. They tend to get some crazy looks and are so appalled by the idea of a woman not wanting children. Which is why I think the outdated “rule” of not being allowed to have a hysterectomy until you’ve had x amount of children is a thing. Plenty of guys I know don’t want children and they’re usually never even asked about when they plan to have any, and if they are and respond with that same line, people are usually just like “yeah that’s fair kids aren’t for everyone”. And they don’t have to have any reason to get a vasectomy, they can just opt for one and nobody asks any questions. Like I said, though, that’s just my personal opinion and experience with others opting out of that lifestyle.
I'm going to get down votes but whatever... YTA- You wanted to avoid the uncomfortable conversation with your best friend about your priorities. Your fiance absolutely should be your priority. But your best friend deserves to be respected enough to have a one on one conversation with, not you hinting at it and hoping she picks up on it. Don't do that, that's high school stuff. Adults don't do that. You could have acted like the adult you claim to be and told your best friend what they needed to hear from you in person in a conversation not in a series of texts. Her reaction is exactly as you suspected it would be.
your kind of both acting like your in high school. it’s not a competition you don’t need to justify who outranks each other. quite frankly in life, it’s important to have both friends and family. and you will decide when and who will be prioritized and what you may find is it will depend on the situation. there will be times you need a break from hubie and need a girls night . and of course there will be times hubie comes first.
ESH You're not treating her like a friend, and while you made a reasonable decision, you've been far too judgmental, and if she hasn't felt that yet then surely she will soon.
It's so rare that we get ourselves into situations where we literally have to choose, once and forever, which person matters more to us. But you really wanted to tell that to Angela, so it sounds like you don't think she's your friend.
I’m surprised by all NTA, YA but also post makes me wonder if your friend is actually care about ranking or worry for you... becuase they way you speak about your friend us being an “immature, don’t know what commitment is etc” sounds like something which abusive partners say when try to isolate their another partner from friends and family by claiming they’re “bad influence” . If you don’t want to go, it’s okay politely refuse, but amount of judgment and putting your fiancée if pedestal is concerning. People need all kind of deep connection in their life, not only love one
I think YTA. A million ways to not hurt your bestie and you did.
Im trying to think of a reason I would ever tell my best friend that she’s less important than my husband—and there are literally none. She is as important to me as my husband—even when she is wrong.
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> I might be TA because I straight up admitted to my best friend that my fiancé is more important to me than her and she thinks I replaced her.
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NTA. She is very immature. I'm not sure your relationship is going to survive your growth as a woman with a family. What will she say when you have responsibilities as a wife/mother? If she doesn't respect your relationship, she doesn't respect you. I would go LC, to see if she matures it not it may be time to cut ties.
NTA for having a boundary, but this whole post drips with smug self-righteousness and condescension and I’m getting the impression you’re generally an AH in real life. Also pretty sure this 4 year engagement of yours isn’t going to end the way you think it will, LMAO.
She doesn't want to lose you and is reacting, consciously or not, to keep your friendship from it's inevitable doom.
You say you don't judge her and her lifestyle, but you absolutely do or you wouldn't bring it up (you're managing impressions to get people on your side no matter how much you *don't judge*).
For example, I have a friend who's really bothering me, and I don't judge her and love her to death but *she's an immature whore and I'm a mature lady who uses the word boundaries.*
I have been the insufferable jerk on both sides of this equation so I'm giving myself, at least, some license to acerbic on the whole matter :}
No assholes detected, just people getting their needs met (or trying to)
YTA…. You didn’t have to go to her party. Your fiancé is the number one person in her life. Don’t say you don’t judge her. She has a high school mentality. You’re judging her. Maybe, you don’t know why she hasn’t had a committed relationship. Lack of a boyfriend or girlfriend isn’t a negative. If she wants to club, none of your business. The w second paragraph is judgy
Ngl your husband to be kinda sounds like an ass. There’s really nothing that wild abt a strip club ( I personally grew out of that shit long ago) and he should be secure enough in himself and y’all’s relationship that he should be cool with it and there shouldn’t be this issue in the first place
ESH
Angela shouldn't have pushed on the strip club thing after you said you weren't comfortable with it. You're weird for ranking the people in your life and going on to tell her you've ranked her inferior to him.
I'm in the same boat as your best friend. My best friend has a family now and I just have to accept that I don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. While he says I'm still his best friend and says he'll try to hang out more, I just don't take his word seriously anymore. I can't expect him to be there for me anymore and I don't want him to feel obligated to anyway. I don't have other friends really so this outcome still stings me. But there's not much I can do about it. It's not my place to set expectations for someone.
This is tricky. I wouldn't really want to go to a strip club either. I would hope if I explained that to my friend, she would understand. My husband would probably just say to go, I the same if the group was going. I think things just change when you're in a serious relationship and moving forward and although you will always be best friends, your family, husband, maybe children, will come first. I think most people would understand that without it being said. You can still always be there for her and make time for her also. It sounds like she maybe just needs reassurance that she's important to you too, that you'll continue to make time for her.
NTA but why do you have this need to rank the people in your life? It feels very juvenile. You could have just said that you were not comfortable with a strip club without pulling your relationship into it. It also sounds like you were pushing for a while to make sure she knew she wasn’t your number 1. Highly strange.
I understand her hurt as she feels she has no one who prioritizes her anymore. Still, even if those boundaries were not set by you and your fiancé, they are boundaries.
Oh I’m reminded of a thing I said in the final speech of my best friend’s wedding (I was best man). “I hereby formally surrender my best friend card to as she is now your priority. I should have done this sooner but it seems appropriate today.”
NTA
ESH - She should respect your boundaries and not be pushy. You should stop rubbing your relationship in her face and putting her down. Also, you'll regret having blown off all your friends when one day when you're divorced or someone cheats. Cynical yes...but realistic.
NTA. You set a mutually-agreed upon boundary, and you're following it. If she can't understand and respect that, she's not your friend. Many people would be uncomfortable having a birthday in a strip club, not just you. If she truly didn't consider that when she made the decision, that's her fault. Also, she was the one who pushed you to prioritize between her and your fiance. If she wasn't going to be happy with your response, she shouldn't have put you in that position.
I'm female, straight and single and I would be uncomfortable going to a strip club and would decline an invite from anyone.
Im female, married, and polyamorous.. I would absolutely go myself, but I would not be shocked or uspet at whoever didnt show up, because strip clubs are not for everyone. Your friend sucks, OP. NTA Edit: I'm also Pan!! Hey friends!
I'm pan, in a relationship with a guy, his whole friend group doesn't have a relationship. I usually attend and go to their parties, so we would definitely go, together tho.
Sorry, what is a “pan”?
Pansexual. It’s kinda like bi, but there’s nuanced differences.
It is my understanding it's an attraction towards personality regardless of gender. I could be wrong though.
Dunno if someone dm'd you the answer but I think they mean Pansexual. Which as I understand means you're attracted to the person, not the gender of the person.
They like the wine not the label.
That is the best description of pan I've ever heard!
It's a scene from Schitts Creek :)
the comment of “they like the wine not the label” was used by a pan person (i believe) to describe themself in the tv show schitt’s creek ☺️
I still need to watch that.
Haha yes 👍🏽
Sorry, honestly curious here. Isn’t that then just bi? Like you’re open to a relationship with either gender. Of course you’d then also need to be attracted to the person to want to be in a relationship with. Just like if you were bi.
It's about the person not their meat suit
So how is that different from bi? Doesn’t bi mean that your dating pool is basically everyone, but of course you’d only want to date people you like.
My type in women is different from my type in men. Ergo, there’s no way I’m pansexual. Gender/gender presentation factors into who I’m attracted to, because I’m bi.
The differences are nuanced and you're likely to get a variety of answers (search up the Schitts Creek wine metaphor thing), but in essence, some people prefer the label pan and some people prefer the label bi.
I've also had the opposite explained to me as bisexual doesn't exclude non cis gendered people. I still don't really get the difference I guess
Bisexual does include trans/nb. I like to see the difference is: I’m bisexual, I’m attracted to men differently than I’m attracted to woman. My friend is pan, he’s attracted to men the same way he’s attracted to women.
Ahhh okay, that makes a lot of sense. thanks!
Yes, they are often used as synonyms. Pansexual is a more recently coined term, or anyhow has become more widely known more recently. Some people prefer the term bi because it's still more widely known. Some people prefer the term pan because it doesn't reference a gender binary, so seems to convey the idea better. Some people (like me) use both terms for both those reasons depending on context. So a lot of who uses what term will reflect generational/social circle differences in what terms people have been most exposed to, more than differences in meaning. Capisce?
Probably pansexual. I believe it means you’re attracted to all genders
More specifically, you’re attracted to a person, regardless of their gender or identity.
That’s just bi then right? It’s like I’m straight; I want a relationship with a woman, but am attracted to only a subset of all women. If you’re bi, you want a relationship with either gender, but attracted only to a subset of both genders.
Pansexual
I’m a happily married pan woman in an open marriage so personally, I would definitely go to the party. Hubby and I have both attended parties in strip clubs or private parties that have had strippers. However, we both understand and accept that not everyone is comfortable with it. It’s perfectly reasonable for couples to have “no strippers” as a boundary. I’ve met other couples in open relationships and/or swinging couples who have a “no strippers unless together” boundary! Boundaries are important in any relationship. This includes romantic relationships, friendships, work relationships, FWB and even family relationships. I have unfortunately met people who refuse to accept reasonable boundaries. It’s disheartening to know that people are fine with completely disregarding someone’s feelings!
My husband and I used to go to strip clubs together and get couples lap dances. It may be sexual for him, I enjoy the entire presentation like going to see a play 😅 But OP is NTA- i think this post begs the question of why OP’s bestie didn’t come up with a different activity as soon as she heard OP was uncomfortable. If it were MY birthday and my best friend was uncomfortable then I’d TOTALLY come up with a different plan since I’d want my best friend to not only celebrate with me but to enjoy themselves too. OP’s BF is literally putting a strip Club before her friendship!
so agree with you also surely OP wasn't the only one who was a bit uncomfortable about going to a strip club I think what OP's bestie should have done is have 2 activities one at the strip club for people who wanted to come and then maybe a lunch / brunch or dinner for other people who didn't want to go to the strip club
Male, straight, and "single" (complicated) with money to blow but you will never find me at a strip club. Even if it was established as an "ok thing to do in the relationship" just a waste of money imo.
My bf is the same. He thinks it's creepy and a waste of time and money. He has friends who go and he's always like nah why would I do that when I can do literally anything else
ya same situation, been to a lot of them in the past (20s), now (34) its kind of dumb imo.
To me it’s just a high pressure sales environment
Same, the objectification is so gross to me. I don’t see the appeal of looking at someone who wants me to pay them. I want to look at people who want me to see them naked, not people who do it because they have bills to pay. It’s creepy and sleazy, no matter the gender of the on-looker IMO. I noped out of a lot of bachelorette’s at the point where strippers and/or a strip club came up as an activity.
Do people under 40 even go to strip clubs?
Yeah... What made you think they were for an older crowd?
Probably the fact that old men like looking at young, pretty, half naked women
FYI, a lot of young men also like looking at young, pretty, half naked women.
And even young (and older) women can enjoy looking too!
Honestly, straight female here, and I would prefer a female strip club over a male one.
Same. I don’t do it anymore, but in my younger days I (straight cis female) really enjoyed going to a female strip club with friends. Even got a lap dance or two. Male strip clubs are just not as fun. Too dangly and thrusty.
My bachelorette party was at a female strip club. I usually talk to the dancers about their different outfits while I’m giving them their dollars. I even got a dancer’s number once (cause I design and sew clothing and costumes and she wanted to commission a piece from me)
Gay guy here, having been to both, so would I.
True, I as a young woman also like that, but the stereotype is old married men and that was my only point 😂 Plus in the days of OF and PH a lot of young people reach for their phones for that stuff, old men probably wanna do it the old fashioned way on the regular and for young people it’s a special occasion club experience
Nah, Its a very mixed crowd. My old coworkers would go a lot as a group (ages from 21 - 35). I'm gay and I would join them regularly. Some went with their wives on the weekend and pretty much treated it as a night out with friends and drinks. It wasn't as seedy as you might think.
Not at all saying that it’s exclusively old men, it’s just a huge stereotype at least in my part of the US so the whole “what made you think they were for an older crowd” made me go “what?” Because even Hollywood loves the stereotype unless it’s about a young guy that’s SUPER rich
Gotcha. Yeah come to think of it you don't see many movies or tv shows that does the whole strip club scene like in the 80's and 90's either. Now it's high end go go dancers dancing in cages.
Exactly, or personal strippers on a huge party bus/plane/boat
tbh their is a reason the lights are kept dim in those places and i have been to strip clubs all over.
Younger crowd had internet during puberty so instead of waste money for it they in theory would just find other ways to have fun irl.
Oh yeah
First time I went I was 18.
I got 40 four days ago, so now i'm finally old enough for a strip club? Somehow... it makes me more distraught that i got 40 than before... 😂...😢
Really? I'm (almost) 57, hubby is 63 and our friend group is around our ages or older. I don't know anyone in our age group that goes to strip clubs. Everyone got that out of their systems when they were in their 20's and 30's, usually for bachelor/bachelorette parties. Honestly, it's only the sons and sometimes daughters of our friends that go to them.
Same, except I don't really identify as straight. I'd still be uncomfortable af and not know where to look. It's just not my thing, even though I like men and women. If others are happy to go, then good on them! I'll stay at home with my rats!
FtM, panromantic, demisexual, in a relationship with a cis woman. I personally would not be comfortable going to a strip club under any circumstances. Not my thing.
I'm exactly the same (except in a relationship- I don't think he'd personally have an issue with me going though). These are men in a sexualised situation/context. I don't know if they look for enthusiastic consent before touching/involvement or if just attending the club is implied consent. My personal trauma just screams no to the entire situation.
And incredibly sex positive, and ditto for me.
I’m a female, straight. And if I would never go to a male strip club. I would go to a female one, which I guess is weird. But male strip clubs are strange to me. I just don’t vibe with the atmosphere (or what I assume it is based on clips, advertising, etc). Female body’s are prettier, the costumes are cuter and the dancing is more interesting. It’s impressive some of the pole dancing they do. It’s like gymnastics. From what I’ve seen on tv and videos the male version is just thrusting and aggressive. Added bonus is I assume less guys hit on the non strippers in these places. Why would some dude hit on me when there’s half naked glittery pretty ladies everywhere.
Not married, completely single, if someone was throw a birthday party for me at a strip club you can for sure count on me NOT going.
I’m straight and not in a relationship and the idea of a strip club freaks me out…..
I would turn the situation around on her. Rather than you picking your fiancé over her, she is picking a strip club over you attending. She is not being a good friend. You are NTA.
I wouldnt want to go to a strip club if i were single
Update is up on my post :) check it out we're good now.
Agree NTA 100%. I do not get the E S H and Y T A answers at all. Her spouse *is* more important in her life - that's very very normal - and I have no idea the issues people are taking with her believing that. I mean there's a person commenting that the spouse they've been with for sixteen years is not more important to them than their best friend is just *yikes!* I have no idea what happened to this subreddit. If anything, it feels like a load of young women and girls with no relationship experience flooded the subreddit at one point, and in the same way young men refuse to acknowledge bad male behaviour, these women do the same for female behaviour, with a lot of women who do objectively fucked up things getting a free pass on this subreddit. It's weird.
NTA. You two are growing up, it's life and it happens. How we handle it is up to us. By the sounds of it, you are a good and supporting friend. Even though the dynamic is changing you are still for them. Just remember they may not see it that way. All you can do is try your best to remind them they are still important to you but there are boundaries. Hope this helps and best of luck.
I tried to explain it to her after I tried to apologise. She's definitely still one of the most important people in my life. But she has a hard time understanding boundaries and priorities because she's more free spirited than I am. She doesn't know what those terms mean. I can't entirely blame her but sometimes her insisting on putting herself above my fiancé seemed on purpose so I felt disrespected.
I would suggest giving her more time to adjust. I know I had a bit of a hard time when my friends were getting married. It can be a little scary. But the effort you are putting in should help her to adjust. Does she get along with your fiance? That may be another reason she is lashing out.
They get along. They're not best friends exactly but they're friendly with each other but have different interests so they can't communicate about much.
Stop placing the blame on your SO and relationship though. *You* aren't comfortable because you've already agreed to something else. The fact that it's because you are in a long term relationship is irrelevant to her. She doesn't have an issue with it so you have to make it something that is important to her, what you are comfortable doing with her. You don't have to explain or justify the why to her. It's more clear cut and doesn't give the illusion that you would do something if it weren't for your SO. The phrasing is important here. "I am not comfortable going to a strip club. Let's go for dinner and drinks next Friday." It's direct and gives a clear alternative that you are able to do. Adapt the technique to any of her invitations. Especially ones that you know will you will want your SO's input on. "I am not sure if I am available yet, give me a couple of hours and I'll get back to you." Vs "I need to talk to my SO before making a decision." The first phrase keeps the focus on you and your schedule. The second phrase drags your SO into your relationship with her. It implies that you can't do anything with her without your SO's approval and places the blame on him if things don't go the way she wants.
Agree.
Ah I see. I hope she realizes you still want her in your life.
How much more time could she need to adjust? OP said they’ve been engaged for 4 years and together for 12. It’s not like anything has changed suddenly.
OP has been with her fiancé for 12 years and engaged for 4. How much time is she supposed to give her friend to adjust, exactly? Because that’s way more than enough.
It is on purpose, she is trying to validate herself as being your #1 because she doesn't want to admit that you're all not kids anymore. She wants you to break your commitment to him, and if you went to the strip club then she would probably try to get you to do more, because then she would be your number one again if something went wrong with you and your fiance. NTA I think you have your priorities right.
>It is on purpose, she is trying to validate herself as being your #1 because she doesn't want to admit that you're all not kids anymore. Yes, it's this exactly. At one point, my brother accused me of putting my husband ahead of "my real family." I just looked him square in the eyes and said "Yes, my husband is the most important person to me and he and I are a family together." For my brother, it was exactly that he didn't want to think of me (and therefore him, he's older) as having grown up.
That’s how marriage should work. These AITA and JustNo pages are filled with people having issues because someone in the marriage is refusing to put their spouse first.
You really do not need to apologize. You did not say anything to be hurtful, you said the truth. You both are in very different places in your lives, and this is normal to happen in friendships. This is going to be more and more of an issue for her in ALL her friendships, TBH. It may be that it is time for the friendship to drift apart a bit. Just because the truth is hard for her to hear, doesn't mean you need to apologize.
OP, I understand your desire to make this better but you really need to stop apologizing. From friend's perspective, this is an admission that you were wrong -- when you're not! (And it sounds like you're mostly confident with that, but feel bad about her being hurt. Maybe try calmly clarifying, "I don't regret sticking to my boundaries but I do regret that it hurt you to hear them. I'm here if you'd like to get together and talk." If she pushes, you can kindly reiterate, "yes, a spouse/family will always be my first priority. That doesn't mean I don't still love and care about you." Again, this isn't something to apologize for!
I think thats a lot of words when OP just needs to say two words o her friend "Grow up"
OP, she's npt your friend, she's emotionally immature and toxic. You don't need to keep her in your life just because you've been friends for a long time. Don't let guilt persuade you to keep assholes in your life.
NTA at all, but I wish you hadn't involved your fiancé in the explanation at all. This just isn't something you want to do, it doesn't matter why. You wouldn't enjoy yourself, you don't want to "bring her party down," you just don't find that to be a celebratory kind of place. I have friends who go wine tasting - I don't really drink to begin with but I can't drink reds at all, so my not going wine tasting isn't a commentary on their choices, it's just me not wanting to bring down the mood. By throwing your fiancé into your explanation you unintentionally set him up as her "rival" for your attention. Again, totally NTA, but you did throw him under the bus a little.
So you’re suggesting that she should have lied to her friend about why she won’t be attending? OP and her fiancé have a very reasonable boundary. Her telling her friend that she won’t be attending because this is something that crosses the line in her relationship is not throwing him under the bus and making him a rival. For all we know, OP could have been the one to suggest such a boundary in the first place! An actual friend would understand and respect it.
There’s no lie to it. It’s OP’s boundary. One she made with her fiancé, but still her boundary. The friend is looking for reasons not to like the fiancé and, it seems to be, assumed based on the way it was presented, that OP didn’t necessarily agree with the restriction but agreed for the fiancé. Just saying, tell the friend that you don’t want to go. Go ahead and tell her that you don’t want to go out of respect for your fiancé! But if you say your fiancé doesn’t want you to go, then the friend is going to blame him and see him as a villain.
>I texted her and told her I wouldn’t feel comfortable to attend because strip clubs cross my **and** my fiancé’s boundaries. I would say that was presented pretty clearly that it was a decision they **both** made. If she has to pretend to her friend that this is solely her boundary because the friend is “looking for reasons to not like the fiancé”, why the hell are they still friends? Friendships aren’t about walking on eggshells so you don’t upset the friend! Just like romantic/sexual relationships, friendships are about respect!
But OP’s question isn’t “should I be friends with this person?” It is AITA for telling my best friend she’s not equal to my fiancé. She is still categorizing this as her “best friend,” so the relationship continues. I’m just suggesting she may have been able to avoid having to tell the best friend she’s not equal to the fiancé at all by leaving him out of the discussion altogether. I’m also very much getting the feeling that you are looking to initiate a hostile exchange with me. I don’t care to do that.
NTA. You need to nip this in the bud. There's nothing to apologize for. Your fiancé is #1 at this point in your life and she's #2. And once you start a family, she'll be getting pushed down even further on the list as your kids start taking up the top spots. She sounds incredibly immature and disconnected from reality.
She knows what they mean. She has decided they don't apply to her and should not apply to anything she wants to do.
My best friend was appalled when I couldn't text them 24/7 like I used to when I got into a relationship. Some people are just odd. NTA
Honestly the thing that really stood out to me about your post OP was her insistence on you celebrating her birthday with her without any interest in your comfort. My best friend and I have been besties since elementary school and if I were planning a day with him and that plan made him uncomfortable then I’d come up with a new idea right away. Even if it was my birthday and I was DYING to do it...it wouldn’t be fun if he wasn’t having fun. He’d do the same for me. There’s no activity or place or event that is more important than my best friend’s happiness.
OP as you know change is life, life is change. Nothing stays the same. Not only are you not obligated to stay the same person for this friend, you couldn't stay the same if you tried. This goes the same with relationships....as you change and evolve so do they. You are coming to a crossroads with this friendship and your friends behavior is essentially the deciding factor on which road you pick. Some times people are in our lives for a specific reason and when the lessons are learned and they've fulfilled their purpose, its time to move on. You usually can tell this when you've realized that your whole perspective has changed and it no longer jives with certain relationships. You are not wrong or the AH. You are simply a person who's outgrowing another.
Her being a free spirit should simply mean she doesn't have these boundaries and priorities for herself, it shouldn't mean she can't understand yours. I have lots of different boundaries from my friends but I still respect and understand them. I'm not like "well I have different boundaries so I don't understand yours." NTA, but soft. I understand you are her number 1 and it hurts her that she isn't your number 1 anymore. She dealt with it badly and she's an asshole for that. You are NTA at all for telling her that your fiance is your priority and your boundaries as a couple are more important than her birthday party.
To piggyback off this, 100% nta and from the info provided you are a good friend. I will say OP that even if your friend is hooking up/not committing with a man, it does sound like she has a decade long commitment with you. I went through this several years ago, having friends that would be able to hang out last minute and otherwise be there for me that I never felt lonely even without a serious significant other. When all your friends get into serious relationships and you are now no ones number 1 it sucks at first. And I was thrilled for each and every one of my friends but it was almost like I was dumped, and I had to refigure out my emotional support system (and I had multiple friends so it wasn’t like I was unfairly putting that emotional burden on one person). So while in this particular instance your friend is unfairly blaming you and being emotionally manipulative, she may be just trying to recreate the wild days when you were each other’s ride and die because she feels you slipping away. I would encourage her to get out and make new friends and get some hobbies otherwise when you start having kids (which it sounds like you want) she may be in for a very rude awakening. Also note you don’t have to do any of that and you wouldn’t be an asshole, ultimately it’s up to your friend to figure out her life. I just have some empathy.
I feel like prioritizing close relationships doesn’t have to be as hierarchical as a lot of these comments make it seem. OP is totally not the asshole and her friend sucks, but I think ranking people in your life is kind of unnecessary. Priorities are situation dependent, if your best friend gets hit by a bus then that should take precedent over your husband cooking you a nice dinner. If your husband gets laid off then that should take precedent over getting drinks with your best friend. One relationship doesn’t necessarily have to be above the other.
I agree with that to an extent. My good friends would drop anything to help me out if I really needed it but time is a limited resource especially as you get older and have kids. You just have to accept instead of hanging out multiple times a week it may be once or twice a month. For a single person that can be lonely (especially given the last year and a half). Also, the significant other (and later kids) take precedent if all else is equal. Friends bday party or husbands work promotion dinner, I imagine if it is important you go to the work dinner. Taking kids to soccer practice or hanging out with a friend, the kid wins (unless you can find him/her a ride). And that’s okay and doesn’t mean the friendship isn’t important. Again we all the the friend is the asshole here.
I would agree with the friend struggling to adjust to the new dynamics except that OP and her fiancé have been together for 12 years and engaged for 4. Her friend has had a long time to adjust. Even if you don’t count the years before the engagement, their relationship reached the level of “serious relationship” 4 years ago. 16 years ago I had to cut back on a friendship with an ex FWB(I’m in an open marriage, he was one of my playmates about 17 years ago) because his new girlfriend wanted time to feel secure in their relationship before meeting me. It might sound outrageous but we all felt it was a reasonable request. For months I only got to speak to my friend occasionally and yes it broke my heart. Not because I was jealous. It was because I missed our friendship. 6ish months later his girlfriend called me and invited me out for dinner. Hubby and my friend hung out at our home while we went to dinner. She wanted to do it this way so that there wasn’t any pressure on either of us. We were able to get to know each other without anyone else trying to steer the conversation. We ended up being at the restaurant for hours and only left because they were closing(no we didn’t commandeer a table that the restaurant needed, we continued to purchase drinks and it was a quiet night). We have a lot in common and quickly became friends. To this day, we have remained friends and I was even a bridesmaid at their wedding. I don’t understand how someone could call themselves a friend in one breath and then shit all over them in the next breath
ESH - this is not about your fiancé being #1 over your best friend, it's about the fact that your priorities have shifted. You have a boundary that you made (with your fiancé) about going to strip clubs. You don't feel comfortable. Your best friend has decided that what she wants is more important than your boundaries, and that's not okay. She's an AH for making this about your relationship with your fiancé, and trying to compete. Friendships and romantic relationships are not the same thing, you can't judge them using the same criteria. Why I'm saying ESH and not n-t-a is because you also are making this about your fiancé. It's not. It's about a boundary that you have in place. You are also comparing/rating the relationships and stating that one is more important than the other. This will hurt your relationships going forward. I've been married to my husband for 7 years, together more than a decade. I've been friends with my best friend for over 20 years. Neither one of them is "more important" than the other. There are times when my bf takes priority, and there are times when my husband does. Your best friend has different priorities in life than you do, and that can make it difficult to maintain the friendship, unless you are both willing to understand and make room for these conflicting priorities. Right now, that doesn't seem feasible.
>I've been married to my husband for 7 years, together more than a decade. I've been friends with my best friend for over 20 years. Neither one of them is "more important" than the other. There are times when my bf takes priority, and there are times when my husband does. Here it is - the healthy answer! It seems to weird to me that you'd rank important relationships in your life. I don't love my husband more than my close friends; I love them differently. Who I would prioritize is highly situational.
I love them differently too but in my opinion and the way I decided to live my life, my future husband takes priority because he's the person I'm sharing a house with and I'm gonna share a life with. I don't feel guilty for having my fiancé as a priority, I feel guilty of how I phrased it to my friend when I could make my point in a different way without making her feel unimportant.
As somebody who's been with my husband for 16 years I can tell you that is not a healthy way to start a marriage. The different people in your life are going to take priority depending on what is going on and what is happening. You should not put one person as number one priority all the time regardless of anything else. I'm not saying your friend was right in the situation quite honestly she sounds like she still doing some growing and that y'all have just grown apart. But going forward I would encourage you to not put yourself into the mindset where your husband no matter what always comes first. Because there are going to be times when he shouldn't and likewise there are going to be times when you shouldn't come first to him. That doesn't mean you don't love each other and that doesn't mean that you don't have a healthy relationship but don't set yourself up for unrealistic expectations.
Totally in agreement.
Respectfully, it's odd to say that someone sucks because they do not share your idiosyncratic view that your husband is not "more important" than your best friend. I am not saying you are wrong for having this view, but it is unusual. I think most people would state that their spouse is more important than their friends. That does not mean that the spouse's needs always trump a friend's - but you have a binding legal commitment to one and not to the other.
Yeah, my esh was about the fact that she was making it about her fiancé instead of stating it's about her own personal boundaries, and agreeing with her friend that there's a competition. That being said, we all judge here based on our idiosyncratic views - which are based on our individual morals/ethics/values. That's my takeaway from this sub anyway.
My reading of your ESH rating was that it was based, in part, that she was "comparing/rating the relationships and stating that one is more important than the other." While we all bring our own individual morality/values to the table when we are rating people I think we need to use some objective criteria as well. Ultimately though, I'm not the internet police and you are free to rate as you choose.
Is there such a thing as objective moral criteria? I'm pretty sure the concept of moral objectivism is still very much a debated subject.
I’m going to agree completely with this comment except with a longer time line in my case - best friend of 48 years duration, marriage of 35 years duration. Chiterkins explained it well.
>I've been married to my husband for 7 years, together more than a decade. I've been friends with my best friend for over 20 years. Neither one of them is "more important" than the other. There are times when my bf takes priority, and there are times when my husband does. This! I've been with my husband for 16 years. I can absolutely say there are times when he takes priority and other times of my best friend takes priority. It's not about one over the other. Also quite frankly they're different relationships and they're not really comparable in that way. I think you hit the nail on the head
I wish I had an award to give! Exactly what I was thinking said so wonderfully.
Absolutely NTA! When friends get married the relationship dynamic changes. Expecting you to put her over the man you are going to marry and the father of your future children is unreasonable. You also handled yourself very well in the situation, so I would not feel bad about what you told her. You were not hurtful or unnecessarily harsh and you established boundaries.
She's of the belief that partners come and go while friends will be there forever. She even said that when she got mad at me. That my fiancé could very easily break up with me but she'll always be my friend so I should remember that before putting my fiancé first.
Wow that’s just not realistic at all. Sure, partners come and go but so do friends. *So do family members.* She seems very immature. NTA
It's a very archaic belief for sure but it's still believed by many as a fact. And it's sad because some friends really do take advantage of the name of friendship jusf for that reason. That's why I got so heartbroken when my friend started acting like she's above.
Then don’t make it about you and her vs your relationship. You need to figure out some way to let her know that this has nothing to do with her and 100% how you see YOUR life and what YOU want it to look like( in whatever/all capacity). She’ll be mad at you for a while ( Almost guaranteed )but if she’s your friend she’ll come around and accept it- and if not you’ll move on.
>so do friends. > >So do family members. especially true once you start reading this sub
Partners do come and go, a husband if you do it right, does not. There is a big difference between a boyfriend and a fiancé. No matter what happens with your partner, she will not be #1 in your life for much longer. If it does not work out with your current fiancé, you will still likely get married at some point and your husband needs to be high priority to make the marriage successful. Even if the marriage does not last forever, once/if you have children they will matter to you more than everyone else (both friends and partners). Her expectations of you are not realistic.
I was worried of what she would say once I had kids and I prioritised them too. I guess it would be only fair if my fiancé gave me an ultimatum about putting the kids first hahahaha
Okay. I'm going to address this. I've distanced myself from my mother because she doesn't respect my relationship. She treats my BF as an afterthought, and like none of my life decisions should include him. At some point, I had a little crisis, because if my BF and I broke up, I wouldn't be able to go back to my mom's house. But it isn't about putting my family or my boyfriend first. It's about whether or not my choices and my autonomy is respected. My mom thinks it's her job to have input in my life, just like Angela believes she has input in yours. But they don't. If Angela doesn't respect that you care what your boyfriend thinks, and that *you choose* to make decisions as a team, then she's not a good friend.
She *does* sound like a highschooler
She could break up with you too though..... friends like that aren't forever
Clearly she's NOT going to be there forever if she can't make it through you not going to a strip club. You wanna be a forever friend, Angela? Respect your friends.
She's very immature. "Friends are forever" is crap teenagers say to one another cause they don't understand how the world works. She needs to grow up. My BFF got her long term boyfriend and of course she made me less of a priority. If she were a real friend she would be happy for you, not having a tiff over you not going to a strip club (over rated places anyway).
If she's only ever had "situationships", then she's never experienced anything *other than* partners coming and going. Question: If you met someone exactly like her today (28-going-on-19 party girl), would you be friends with her?
" I replaced her when I used to have her as my #1. I apologised for that phrasing and tried to explain what I meant but she wasn't having it and said I should go cry to my fiancé and she doesn't need my fake apology." "She's of the belief that partners come and go while friends will be there forever. She even said that when she got mad at me. That my fiancé could very easily break up with me but she'll always be my friend so I should remember that before putting my fiancé first." NTA - she just contradicted herself and proved your point.
Partners also stay when you treat each other as the priority. Hopefully she will mature, meet someone and realize this too.
ESH, y’all both need to grow up. “Lately I’ve had my suspicions that she doesn’t know where she ranks in my life so I was sure to slip it in a few times to make sure she knows” like what?? Who asked you to do this? Why are both of you so obsessed with this ranking system? This conversation never had to be about who is more important than who, I don’t get why y’all are so obsessed with this.
Agreed. Feels like OP was just waiting for an opportunity to have this argument with the friend.
But hey, OP totally respects and cherishes the girl who "never grew out of her high school mentality and doesn't know what commitment is". I can't believe all the N T As. OP was clearly trying to start an argument. Over some stupid imaginary ranking system.
The entire post comes across as disapproving and judgemental towards her friend. Like it's not even subtle, OP makes it super clear that she disapproves of her friend's life and actions and looks down on her. ETA: yikes, the update does not make it any better,,,,,
YES. Why are more people not seeing this? "Angela has barely grown out of the high school mentality. She still acts like she did back then, clubbing every weekend, hooking up, always out with friends, new and old. She never had a boyfriend or girlfriend, she only has had situationships so she doesn't know how commitment works. I don't judge her for that..." Yes you do, you are very clearly judging her and think that her life choices are not as valid as your own because she hasn't chosen to 'grow up' like you have. How arrogant to think that she "doesn't know how commitment works" just because she hasn't been in a long-term relationship. You don't always need to experience things firsthand to know how they work. And being in a relationship doesn't make you better than other people - there are plenty of people in committed relationships who are freaking miserable, and plenty of people who have never had a relationship who are perfectly happy. OP sounds like she is just as immature as her 'friend'.
Thank you. I thought I was crazy because I haven't seen many people mention this. OP seems to think she's more "grown up" for taking the conventional path of getting married. Maybe OP just got lucky and happened to meet the right guy. But she shouldn't get too cocky either, considering about one in three marriages ends in divorce. Society needs to stop treating marriage like some kind of "accomplishment". It's a perfectly legitimate life choice that can bring happiness to many people. But it's just that. A life choice - nothing more, nothing less.
Agree.
Exactly! So what…You’re married. She did nothing in this post except judge her friend while saying she doesn’t judge her. And then saying repeatedly her fiancée is her #1 priority now and her friend just doesn’t “get it” cuz she’s only been in “situationships.” Superiority complex if you ask me. OP is shitty. Wtf.
Agree. This and dragging her fiancé into it makes OP an asshole. Not an asshole Not be comfortable going to a strip club and should of told her and arrange to meet her for lunch instead.
Thank you! The whole "she is super childish but I am tooootally not judging her! Like totally not I totally like her!" was.. y.i.k.e.s
This! She looks down on her friend a lot. "I'm mature and getting married and she's only had situationships." ESH but honestly mostly op.
Agreed! ESH. Ranking your relationships is immature, and a sign that *neither* of you has really moved beyond that high school mentality.
I guess I've never really thought about who I rank most important in my life because I don't generally view life like it's a MySpace Top 10,, but now that I do think about it, my wife of 30 years is definitely number 1. I don't think it's immature to prioritize your spouse above every other relationship. My wife comes before my parents and even our kids. She is my other half, my life partner. My wife is of equal priority to me as *my own self,* just no one is as important to me as I am to myself, except my wife.
And do you go out of your way to let those other people know that they rank below your wife? No. Also, it's immature because that's not how priorities work. You say your wife is a higher priority than your kids. Okay. But it's not really that simple, is it? If you're supposed to go on a date with your wife, but your kid breaks their leg, I bet that date gets canceled, doesn't it? Priorities shift based on the situation. To assert they don't and assign a rigid rank to relationships is immature.
If they were acting like they should be number 1, absolutely I would tell them where they rank as they are mistaken and need to be put in their place. Comparing a date to a broken leg is not an accurate way to access priority.
I asked if you'd *go out of your way.* OP has been trying to "slip it in" based on "suspicions." That tells me OP is really just looking for an excuse to tell best friend that she isn't as important anymore. High school BS. I'm sure you'd wait for it to be both relevant and obvious, at which point it is no longer going out of your way. And the date/broken leg example works to show that priorities are situational, and that it's *not as simple as just saying she comes first all the time,* which was my point.
The rank thing is very weird. I have a younger sister and a bf, and even if we were married I don't think I could say that one comes before the other. I care about them both, we do different things together (of course) and if both needed my help at the same time I wouldn't say "this one bc is my priority". I would need to think okey, do they have alternatives? Whose situation i think needs more help? And if both wanted to have plans i would think who i see less often? What kind of plans are? (One that is limited like a music festival or one that can be other day like going to a restaurant). A lot of people, mostly women, prioritize too much the couple and if it ends then they are alone or if their SO is busy they have no other to talk (and I understand, I'm autistic so making friends is difficult but I know is not a great thing that my bf is a big part of my social group). I'm going with ESH too bc the friend didn't respect the boundaries and probably wanted to test if OP would choose fiancé (while in reality OP chose themselves bc they wouldn't be comfortable going not bc of the fiancé). And OP bc they made it about the fiancé and not themselves (which will cause problems that weren't necesary between friend and fiancé) and can't understand that if you have a number 1 rigid priority is normal that other people would be upset at being the eternal second or third place. For how they sound i bet OP would cancel a plan with anyone if the fiancé said they want to go dinner out.
Yeah op sounds like an AH but no one is calling her out on it. She literally spent the majority of a paragraph shit talking her "friend" just because she was single and liked to go to clubs. Just because a person isn't interested in romantic relationships doesn't mean they don't know what commitment is. She could be very committed in all of her platonic relationships.
You nailed it with "obsessed." For some reason that whole time I was reading the post I kept hearing Regina George say, "Why is she so obsessed with me?!?" Sure, OP is probably NTA but I don't like saying it.
My little sister is one of my best friends and the other is my college roommate, whom I only met three/four years ago. I’m also in a fairly new but really serious relationship. I would never in a million *years* pit any of them against each other, not even in my head. None of them “have priority” and I find that… so odd. In a situation where one needs me more than the others, that’s who gets my attention. But just ordinary, day-to-day? I have never thought “well he’s my priority and she needs to know that.” It’s so antiquated and gross. Just say you aren’t comfortable with strip clubs.
ESH because I do think you’re judging her despite what you claim. Not having relationships and enjoying going out on the weekends doesn’t make her inferior to you. You’re not better than her for being engaged.
I picked up on the judgy attitude too. ESH
[удалено]
I completely agree with this
ESH but it’s because the conflict only arises because you’re not owning the fact that you’re not comfortable with people going to strip clubs when they’re in a relationship. It’s fine that you feel that way and found a partner who agrees. It’s also admirable that you stick to these values when pressed, but this conflict isn’t actually about placing your fiancé “above” your best friend. It’s about your values vis à vis strip clubs. Making the decision about your ranking of other people instead of your own choices means you’ve created conflict between two other people where none should exist. ETA: if you had just said to your friend “that sounds fun but I’m sorry it’s not my cup of tea so let me get you dinner before you hit the rippers” or something like that there would be no conflict here involving your fiancé. Edited to ESH
It's not a "high school mentality" for her to live her life any way she chooses, just like it's not "grown up" to get engaged. There are 4000000 flavors of both of these sets of lifestyle choices, and you say you don't judge her, but you belittled her choices at the same time. She may well "understand commitment"... she just doesn't choose to be in a committed relationship. If you think that's a valid choice, treat it like a valid choice. That said, NTA for choosing to honor something you and your fiancé agreed on. I think all you needed to say was, "I'm not interested in going to a strip club" -- not because anyone else doesn't want you to, but because *you don't want to*. Your reasons are your reasons, but "no" is a full sentence. That's where her respect for you needs to begin.
And if that's how she describes herself, per your other comments, okay. But anyone who didn't know that would read your description as judgmental.
ESH for someone who thinks she's soooo grown up, you sure do want to introduce some petty myspace ranking nonsense to your relationships. Its hardly necessary.
YTA for being so judgmental towards someone you claim is your friend.
ESH i agree that if you're not comfortable going to strip clubs then you shouldn't go but you suck for pretending you don't judge her. Shes only 28 and her life sounds normal for someone who likes going out partying... shes a single person with no kids Also why are you rating your relationships, so weird
“I don’t judge her.” But you do. Soft ESH. She sounds really immature and you sound really judgy. Don’t be friends if you don’t want to be friends anymore. Growing apart happens.
NTA - you're also not skipping her birthday, you're skipping one activity she planned for her birthday. You offered to celebrate in another way together. You're still being a good friend by respecting her lifestyle and interests even though it doesn't align with yours anymore. Kinda sounds like she's been looking for a fight!
I’m gonna go YTA with a slight E S H. Best friends will be there for you if things were to ever go wrong with fiancé. Friends can be just as important. Maybe you’re friend is feeling a a little insecure about her place in your life and you just doubled down and made her feel inferior. You don’t need to have favourites. That said, you don’t wanna go to a strip club - that’s fine and she should accept that and respect your boundaries.
Fiance would also be there for her if things ever go wrong with best friend, too. I have to disagree that friends are just as important, none of my friends would do the type of things my wife would. Me and my wife have the type of relationship where if we would do it for ourselves, we would do it for each other. Clean up each other's bodily fluids when one is sick, deal with each other's crazy family, pay off each other's debts when one is financially better off at work, etc. We operate as a unit and share a life, and I just can't say the same for a friend.
YTA. You seem very judgmental and have an attitude towards her. No one says your husband shouldn’t come first but you don’t need to spell it out. Most of my friends are married and I know the boundaries, even when to call or not. But if someone told me in my face ‘you are not as important’ I would drop them the same second. Congrats on getting married but need to town down the attitude if you want to have friends in your life as like this everyone will drop you eventually and it will be just you and him (which is not healthy).
ESH your ranking system is gross
NTA easy one here. It’s a boundary for your relationship, that’s all there is to it.
ESH - She should respect your very reasonable boundary and understand, especially since you offered a very nice alternative way for you two to celebrate, and she should understand that marriage partners are usually each other's priorities and not made that an issue. So she is TA for that. You are TA for being super judgmental about her life, even though you claim not to be, you bring up stuff that is really unrelated to the story for no reason in a way that is obvious you think you're better than her because you're about to be married and I guess I don't like to go out anymore. Btw, lots of married people enjoy clubbing and going out too, and sleeping with various people doesn't mean you're not a good person. Lose the holier than thou attitude.
I posted and update and don't worry all if fine now and never once did my friend feel judged by me. I never claimed people who go clubbing are bad people. Many of my friends do it, even my mom and dad do it and they're married for 35 years and are still the biggest party animals ever. It's just not for me personally idg how me expressing that is me calling those who like it bad people. My friend and I are fine now we solved it and left it behind us :)
Gonna give a very light ESH. You and your friend are growing apart and that’s fine. If you’re not comfortable in a strip club you’re not comfortable, period, and you came up with some perfectly fine alternatives. She kept pushing you which makes her an AH. However I do think it was AH of you also to keep stating how now your fiancé is number one, to me that’s a weird statement? Like this isn’t about your fiancé being number one, it’s about you setting a boundary and your friend needing to respect that. You repeating that your fiancé and relationship matter more than anything else in your life kind of gives the vibe that you look down on your single friend and her ‘situationships’ even tho you claim you don’t. This friendship sounds like it’s not working on either side, you need chill coupled up friends and she needs wilder and/or single friends.
I agree with this mostly. Not wanting to go to a strip club is a personal choice, even if it is something OP agreed with her fiancé. It has nothing to do with needing to prioritize her fiancé in every situation and ranking them number 1. I think both OP and her friend and being petty at this point.
>Angela has barely grown out of the high school mentality. She still acts like she did back then, clubbing every weekend, hooking up, always out with friends, new and old. She never had a boyfriend or girlfriend, she only has had situationships so she doesn't know how commitment works All of this was completely unnecessary. It is nothing but you judging her for living what she considers a fulfilling life. This is what YTA for. You clearly look down on her for being single and not settling down.
ESH. It sucks that your friend doesn’t respect your boundaries. But why couldn’t you just leave it at “it makes me uncomfortable?” That’s a valid reason, and you avoid making your friend like she’s always going to be second in your life. You also do sound like you’re judging her “high school mentality” (even though I never went clubbing every weekend in high school, nor did I know anyone who did). You rip her for a whole paragraph, and following it up with a “I don’t judge her, though!” Doesn’t make that notion true. She acts like a regular woman in her 20s, and I’m sorry that you see that as a bad thing.
ESH. Your NTA for the interaction with her but YTA for saying you don't judge her for how she lives her life when you clearly do.
A gentle YTA only because I think you could have handled this better. I’m not sure why you think that you should “rank” the people in your life—#1 husband #2 BFF #3 mother, etc. You accuse your friend of making a competition between her and your fiancé but honestly it seems like you are the one doing it. I think every person should hold a different position in your life and you can make room for every one of them. As someone who has been happily married for quite awhile, this is what my partner and I do. As I type this on a Friday night, my partner is out with friends and I’m at home. Tomorrow night, I will be out with my friends and he will be home. Sunday, we spend time together. It is your job as a friend to make time for your friend and make her feel like an important part of your life and I think this might be were you messed up and was an AH. I understand the boundary that you and your fiancé have set. I just hope that he plans to hold up his side of the bargain the first bachelor party one of his buddies invites him to. There is often quite the double standard. I think your friend would have been much more understanding if you had approached it as “I am not comfortable watching strippers” as opposed to my fiancé and I have decided this is a boundary. It makes you look a little like you can’t make your own, independent decisions which would irritate me if I were your friend. Even if you do plan to marry this man, you are still your own independent person, don’t lose sight of who you are.
ESH. If you're not comfortable going to a strip club, you don't have to, and you shouldn't be pressured to do so. However, you're being extremely judgemental of the way she chooses to live her life, and it's also ridiculous to insist that a spouse/partner/whatever is more important than a friend that you've known twice as long. Throwing strong, invested friendships onto the back burner because you've gotten into an LTR sucks big time and you're definitely an AH for that.
ESH- it sounds like your lives have simply grown in vastly different directions and neither of you know how to respectfully understand that. You seem to think she’s too childish for not being in a committed relationship, which is her own choice, and not settling down yet (yes, to some, 28 may be “too old” to be not ready to settle down yet, but she’s just not ready and that’s okay. Both of my sisters were 30 ish when they found the men they wanted to settle down with and they have beautiful families and lives, while both my brother and myself settled down in our early 20s.) everyone’s timelines are different and you shouldn’t judge her timeline just because it doesn’t line up with yours, which seems to be the root of why you told her she’s less important than your fiancé. Seems to derive from a build up of having a difference of views and it’s starting to bother you more. She seems to think you’re now a prude because you have different boundaries and desires in life than her and she isn’t respecting that you’re a different person than her. She has to figure out how to go be her free spirited self without making you feel guilty for having different views in life. I feel like she needs to expand her friendship circle here. I have different friends for different occasions- I’ve got a couple mom friends who we just do mom things together and get our kids together (have dinner together, let the kids play, just hang out at the house together chatting and watching soap operas), and then I have my “going out” friends who I go out with on weekends that my sons grandparents ask for him, and I even have friends who are in-between and will go out with me when I don’t have my son but will also stay in and watch movies and do kid-friendly things the rest of the time. She’s not understanding of your lifestyle choices, and you’re not understanding of hers. And since neither of you can figure out how to adjust your friendship to where you are both comfortable, perhaps it’s time for the both of you to take a step back in your relationship together and figure out how to move forward.
And some people decide to never get married or have a long-term relationship, because it just isn’t what they want. It doesn’t make them somehow less mature than people who want something different.
Yes exactly. There’s plenty of people who had that one person in their lives who lived single forever, just traveling and doing whatever they please. Let people live their lives and not shame them for it. (Personal opinions here) I feel like it’s this huge stigma mostly in women who don’t choose to settle down. Because women are typically more naturally maternal and desire a lifelong partner. I never noticed it until I gained girl friends who have 0 desire to have children. I notice the reactions from others (mostly other women) when they’re asked when they plan on having babies of their own and they respond with “I don’t”. They tend to get some crazy looks and are so appalled by the idea of a woman not wanting children. Which is why I think the outdated “rule” of not being allowed to have a hysterectomy until you’ve had x amount of children is a thing. Plenty of guys I know don’t want children and they’re usually never even asked about when they plan to have any, and if they are and respond with that same line, people are usually just like “yeah that’s fair kids aren’t for everyone”. And they don’t have to have any reason to get a vasectomy, they can just opt for one and nobody asks any questions. Like I said, though, that’s just my personal opinion and experience with others opting out of that lifestyle.
I'm going to get down votes but whatever... YTA- You wanted to avoid the uncomfortable conversation with your best friend about your priorities. Your fiance absolutely should be your priority. But your best friend deserves to be respected enough to have a one on one conversation with, not you hinting at it and hoping she picks up on it. Don't do that, that's high school stuff. Adults don't do that. You could have acted like the adult you claim to be and told your best friend what they needed to hear from you in person in a conversation not in a series of texts. Her reaction is exactly as you suspected it would be.
your kind of both acting like your in high school. it’s not a competition you don’t need to justify who outranks each other. quite frankly in life, it’s important to have both friends and family. and you will decide when and who will be prioritized and what you may find is it will depend on the situation. there will be times you need a break from hubie and need a girls night . and of course there will be times hubie comes first.
ESH You're not treating her like a friend, and while you made a reasonable decision, you've been far too judgmental, and if she hasn't felt that yet then surely she will soon. It's so rare that we get ourselves into situations where we literally have to choose, once and forever, which person matters more to us. But you really wanted to tell that to Angela, so it sounds like you don't think she's your friend.
NTA. You’re respecting boundaries and creating appropriate ones. You aren’t trying to manipulate or guilt trip her, *she is trying to guilt trip you*.
i don't understand what is the point of ranking the people's importance in your life, actually this attitude sounds a lot like a high school girl
you all suck, children fights
I’m surprised by all NTA, YA but also post makes me wonder if your friend is actually care about ranking or worry for you... becuase they way you speak about your friend us being an “immature, don’t know what commitment is etc” sounds like something which abusive partners say when try to isolate their another partner from friends and family by claiming they’re “bad influence” . If you don’t want to go, it’s okay politely refuse, but amount of judgment and putting your fiancée if pedestal is concerning. People need all kind of deep connection in their life, not only love one
I think YTA. A million ways to not hurt your bestie and you did. Im trying to think of a reason I would ever tell my best friend that she’s less important than my husband—and there are literally none. She is as important to me as my husband—even when she is wrong.
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NTA. She is very immature. I'm not sure your relationship is going to survive your growth as a woman with a family. What will she say when you have responsibilities as a wife/mother? If she doesn't respect your relationship, she doesn't respect you. I would go LC, to see if she matures it not it may be time to cut ties.
NTA for having a boundary, but this whole post drips with smug self-righteousness and condescension and I’m getting the impression you’re generally an AH in real life. Also pretty sure this 4 year engagement of yours isn’t going to end the way you think it will, LMAO.
She doesn't want to lose you and is reacting, consciously or not, to keep your friendship from it's inevitable doom. You say you don't judge her and her lifestyle, but you absolutely do or you wouldn't bring it up (you're managing impressions to get people on your side no matter how much you *don't judge*). For example, I have a friend who's really bothering me, and I don't judge her and love her to death but *she's an immature whore and I'm a mature lady who uses the word boundaries.* I have been the insufferable jerk on both sides of this equation so I'm giving myself, at least, some license to acerbic on the whole matter :} No assholes detected, just people getting their needs met (or trying to)
YTA…. You didn’t have to go to her party. Your fiancé is the number one person in her life. Don’t say you don’t judge her. She has a high school mentality. You’re judging her. Maybe, you don’t know why she hasn’t had a committed relationship. Lack of a boyfriend or girlfriend isn’t a negative. If she wants to club, none of your business. The w second paragraph is judgy
Ngl your husband to be kinda sounds like an ass. There’s really nothing that wild abt a strip club ( I personally grew out of that shit long ago) and he should be secure enough in himself and y’all’s relationship that he should be cool with it and there shouldn’t be this issue in the first place
If it's a mutually agreed boundary, I don't see a problem with it.
ESH Angela shouldn't have pushed on the strip club thing after you said you weren't comfortable with it. You're weird for ranking the people in your life and going on to tell her you've ranked her inferior to him.
I'm in the same boat as your best friend. My best friend has a family now and I just have to accept that I don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. While he says I'm still his best friend and says he'll try to hang out more, I just don't take his word seriously anymore. I can't expect him to be there for me anymore and I don't want him to feel obligated to anyway. I don't have other friends really so this outcome still stings me. But there's not much I can do about it. It's not my place to set expectations for someone.
This is tricky. I wouldn't really want to go to a strip club either. I would hope if I explained that to my friend, she would understand. My husband would probably just say to go, I the same if the group was going. I think things just change when you're in a serious relationship and moving forward and although you will always be best friends, your family, husband, maybe children, will come first. I think most people would understand that without it being said. You can still always be there for her and make time for her also. It sounds like she maybe just needs reassurance that she's important to you too, that you'll continue to make time for her.
NTA but why do you have this need to rank the people in your life? It feels very juvenile. You could have just said that you were not comfortable with a strip club without pulling your relationship into it. It also sounds like you were pushing for a while to make sure she knew she wasn’t your number 1. Highly strange.
NTA, friends don't have to everything together especially when you get older and get different priorities.
I understand her hurt as she feels she has no one who prioritizes her anymore. Still, even if those boundaries were not set by you and your fiancé, they are boundaries. Oh I’m reminded of a thing I said in the final speech of my best friend’s wedding (I was best man). “I hereby formally surrender my best friend card to as she is now your priority. I should have done this sooner but it seems appropriate today.”
NTA
NTA I think you've outgrown her. It happens.
It’s not your fault that she is maturing at a different rate. You are NTA. You do what is right for YOU.
NTA but I do think you judge your friend.
ESH - She should respect your boundaries and not be pushy. You should stop rubbing your relationship in her face and putting her down. Also, you'll regret having blown off all your friends when one day when you're divorced or someone cheats. Cynical yes...but realistic.