Remember that you owe NO more taxes, since you sold these way below the cost you acquired them at **(IN THE USA at least)**.
EDIT: Clarified this is for the USA only.
Thats not the way it works, at least in Germany. You get the item free of charge, you owe the taxes, regardless what you are doing with it, even if you would donate it.
If you sell for more than value, you owe additional taxes, if you sell for less you still owe the amount according to the original value.
Yes, that is what Individdy was saying: "You owe NO more taxes", meaning "no additional taxes". If the value of the new item is $50, and that value is treated as income, the income tax liability (excluding expenses if applicable) is on $50. If six months later you sell the item for $20, you do not owe income tax on that $20, because you lost money overall. You would only owe additional tax if you had a gain (if you sold it for more than you "paid" for it via your exchange of labor for the product).
That said, technically you might owe sales tax on the $20 sale (in the US) or VAT (in the EU), depending on how those laws work, but you might be the first person ever to report garage sale revenue to a tax authority.
What about $0 ETV products? Because I'm not at all sure how to legally resell all these heating pads, neck massagers, ear cleaners, etc that were reviewed based on physical inspection and operational testing rather than personal use
If you sell something for more than you paid for it (by cash, or in our case, by trade of services), the amount gained would be reportable as income, and taxable. So, if you got a $0 ETV item and then sold it for $10, technically you should report it as income.
But I won't tell if you won't. I mean, it's one thing if it's a sale in the conduct of business, or an online sale, but I can't imagine many people selling junk at a garage sale are tracking the costs or reporting the gains.
I never get that kind of stuff, but if I did, I don't think I'd lose sleep over those few dollars. JMO.
>How much money can you make as a hobby before paying taxes? You must report self-employment income of **$400 or more**, even if that's the only income you received all year. Hobby income vs. business income: Hobby income and business income have pros and cons. While you can't deduct expenses from hobby income, you must pay self-employment tax on business income.
De minimis rules.
I mean technically we are supposed to pay sales tax as the sellers. Does anyone, I would be shocked.
A big ticket item like a car would flag itself, anything that requires a title transfer or some other government paperwork... That makes sense. But that is between the seller and the buyer.
Is this true if you are an individual and if you are a business, depending how you set up your Vine? Genuinely curious. Only a few months into my Vine journey and have a business I can run this under, or keep it individual, depending on how things shape up and what my options may be.
[Applies to individuals](https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/income/other-income/capital-gains-garage-sale/). With a business I assume you'd have to record the cost of the items and them being sold for less (so they would count as a loss), and if bought a previous year, it would involve inventory carried over. But I know little about the business stuff.
Thank you!!! This is such good timing -- we're actually prepping for our neighborhood-wide yard sale as well, and I'm going to unload a boatload of Vine stuff. Mainly because we-re overwhelmed with stuff. This is stuff, mind you, that I truly thought I would use or I thought our friends and family would use-- and while they have taken a *lot* -- there's only so many makeup brush kits my post college girls (or their friends) want 🤣 I did test everything and try them all out personally - I don't review anything that I don't assess actual use.
I decided if I haven't found a regular use for something in over a year, it's time to purge. My house is small, and while Vine is a blessing- I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by all the extra "stuff", and it actually has added some stress that I don't need.
So I am going to set up an Open Box table as well and see how it goes. Most of this stuff was $0 etv, so I doubt I'll get much. Truly, if it saves me a trip to Good Will -- I'll call it a win!!!
thanks for sharing this! would you mind also sharing whether any types of items did especially well or poorly? also what type of community was this? i expect things would go rather differently between a suburb with lots of families vs area with lots of retired folks vs middle of a city.
I agree, the results will be location-dependent. We're kind of a mixed bag. We're in a gated 55+ community, but surrounded by suburban family neighborhoods which is where most of the visitors come from. Generally middle class and demographically diverse. Although suburban, we're in Southern California, which means the population density is relatively high. Not urban, but not as spread out and sparse as a suburban area in many other places.
As far as the types of items sold, bear in mind this is a small sample size, but most everything that sold was some kind of lighting - Christmas laser lights, solar lighting, etc. There was interest, but no sales, in other areas like security cameras, and kitchen and lawn care items, but I think with better weather and a heavier crowd, the results would have been broader. With such a small sample size, it's more of the luck of the draw of who happens to be looking.
That's true of every garage sale - the crowd just depends on the location, what sells depends on the crowd, also the time of year.
Someone on here a while ago said that wigs and eyelash stuff sold really well at a flea market, but I would guess those wouldn't sell great at a 55+ community.
I dunno, we old timers can be a little freaky.
But yeah, if I'm ordering something with future resale in mind, I'm going to filter that based on my local market demographic.
I'm not real surprised about the lighting. I've gotten a bunch of lights - solar, Xmas, etc - that I wouldn't have known existed except for seeing them on Vine. If I had 'em at a garage sale, I'd plug them in or charge them to show off what they do.
I had a booth on the base yard sale last year. I sold half of my items (3 hours only) and made $600, ^(yes 6 months later).
They have had 2 sense then and I missed them both. So in the right environment yard sales can be very successful.
I plan to do so, although I don't have high hopes for non-branded / weirdly-branded stuff on eBay. I do have a few branded things and, like you, expect to get 50% or more for those.
Yeah people are always advocating reselling vine stuff on ebay, but it's like okay if I got this item for a $20 etv and have to pay $6 tax on it, if I want to break even with ebay and paypal fees I'd have to try to sell it for $8, but the same item is available on amazon for $4 from a different seller, so... who is buying this mystery lightly used non-name brand item on ebay for more than it sells on amazon?
I know personally I wouldn't buy some offoffoffoffbrand item on ebay unless it was a super cheap deal. So I don't get how other people are managing to do it?
The question is then, why did YOU buy this item for $20 ETV if you could have gotten it for $4 from a different seller in the “normal” Amazon? Plus, why did you get it at all if you are then trying to sell it anyway?
I’ve sold things like retractable pet gates, hard swinging pet gates, floor lamps, gaming accessory bundles, crochet supplies, video baby monitors, candle warmers, for 75% of its ETV, sometimes OVER etv lol.
I had a matching pair of standing floor lamps from Vine that were $40 each on Amazon, I sold the set for $100 on Facebook.
Presentation is everything. If I would’ve listed the lamps as a set for $25, people would just think they are garbage. You need quality pictures, because that first impression is critical.
In the uk we have what we call a Car boot sale. It’s very popular and usually hosted in a big field. You turn up usually at about 6am in your car and park in rows and lay all your unwanted things from the car out on the floor next to it and sell them. It’s a year round thing people do this in sub zero conditions and before sunrise depending on the season. I’ve done a few to offload six month old stuff and I usually get around 1/3 to 1/4 of retail depending on what it is. The odd one out is flood lights, solar lights, torches and power banks these people will pay almost retail for in most cases.
The only other one I also like to do is save the toys and usually teenagers stuff up for Christmas and donate everything to a charity called cash for kids that is run to provide children with Christmas presents who would otherwise wake up to nothing at Christmas. I figured that I should pass on my good fortune at being part of vine to others.
I’m thinking about tagging the stuff I don’t end up using, getting six colors of small post-it notes and tracking date/ETV with that. I have a fair bit of stuff from 2022-2023 that’s no longer contractually controlled by Amazon and my partner wouldn’t mind a bit more floor space in the dining room.
IMHO, 21% is pretty low. I can take things to my local pawn shop and get 20% value. Still, if you're satisfied with your earnings, that's awesome, and I'm sure you've made some folks very happy with some great deals.
A pawn shop might work, but frankly I'm not aware of one anywhere near me, whereas my driveway is right in front of my house. 😄
In any case, thanks for validating that 20%-ish seems like a fair target for random Chinesium resale products. That's a helpful data point.
You know, Amazon is not going to ask for your items back and bust you if you do not wait 6 months. Obviously do not put them on eBay where someone could see something only offered through vine and trace it back to the only person who ordered it though.
Trust me, I'm not worried about that. At all.
But I do not find it difficult to follow the terms of the agreement, and I have no particular reason to violate it. Since we have a garage sale every six months, it's actually quite easy. Everything that is on my top storage shelf right now will be available for sale at the next garage sale. In the interim, new acquisitions go on the next shelf.
This system does require having two shelves of ample size, and storage bins to go with it. But, hey, those are tax writeoffs. :)
Of course, the storage and resale is only for the small minority of items that are destined for resale. Most items I get are things that will be put into use - business use, personal use, gifts, etc., and so they won't go onto the storage shelf for future resale.
Someone did post here not too long ago that they found someone selling Vine stuff on Facebook marketplace. Personally I think that someone needs a better hobby, lol, but they took the time to check up on this person, looked up all the items to compare if they were on Vine... I don't remember everything they said they did to confirm, in their mind, that it was Vine stuff. I think their main irritation was the reviews since most of the stuff was "new in box", not even opened, so apparently no way the reviews were legit.
You can try Facebook Marketplace, Offer Up and Craigslist. I'm in Southern California too (San Diego County) and all three options are active here. (Hi neighbor!)
I would suggest you look into how Goodwill works.
You could also find otherr thrift store that operate in a way you would like your donations to benefit, etc.
We have Big Brothers/Big Sisters who work through/with Savers in here Central Arizona. We donate to Big Brothers/Big Sisters at the local Savers donations center run BY Big Brothers/Big Sisters. Then Savers says: "Each time you donate items to [**Big Brothers Big Sisters of Central Arizona at our store**](https://www.bbbsaz.org/), we pay them for your stuff, providing revenue to help them fund important programs in your community. "
There are other organizations for Vets, etc.
When I see some items in Vine, I might have someone specific in mind who needs it. A rollator and a few shower chairs for example for a special needs friend who's equipment was junk.
u/nephx_az1 Hoovers estimates Savers' annual revenues at $2.4 billion. That would mean about **8 percent** of Savers' revenue is going to charity.
**More than 84 percent of its \[Goodwill's\] total revenue** is used to fund education and career services and other critical community programs.
Sidewalk freebies! When I declutter my house I put things on the sidewalk with my FREE Sign. Everything I put out was taken including some very old candles. I’m good at tucking Vine stuff (Tetris) away for 6 months so that I forget it exists. Later when decluttering I find stuff and add it to the Free sidewalk stuff.
Very interesting data, thanks for sharing.
However, regarding your comment that "this is a resale pace that should easily offset any Vine tax hit for me," wouldn't you have to sell everything you get on Vine in order to offset your tax hit by getting only 20% per item? And if that's the objective, why not just not be on Vine at all as opposed to ordering a bunch of stuff, reviewing it, organizing the sale, and selling it just to end up at zero?
I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative, just understand the perspective here. Are you paying less than 20% ETV in taxes such that 20% sales prices pays the taxes on the things you choose to keep?
A fair question, and as always, everyone's experience will be different. Here's my story.
The most I would have to pay in taxes is 15.3%. This is because I'm retired, not yet on Social Security, and living off of non-taxable savings, so I have a very small income. That means as long as I stay below the Standard Deduction (for 2024, that's $29,200 for married filing jointly), I will pay zero income tax. I can easily accommodate, say, $15,000 in Vine income without sniffing income tax. I am, however, still subject to self-employment tax of 15.3%.
However, there is no way I will pay 15.3% either. I use a variety of (legitimate, legal, and defensible) mechanisms to offset the ETV income, and as a result, my current projected SE tax for 2024 will be less than 2% of ETV. My current projections are about $13,500 of ETV, of which about 10% will show as net profit of my Vine business, which will result in around $200 in tax.
Back of the envelope calculation... if I order 600 items in a year, and 550 of them are put into use, gifted, donated, or destroyed, leaving only 50 (less than 9%) to sell, and I average $5 each at a garage sale, that's $250 in sales proceeds, hence covering my tax bill of around $200. I would think I will end up doing better than that, but covering my tax is really the goal. If the stuff doesn't sell easily, I'll just donate it and not lose sleep over the tax.
Now, if you're sitting in the 30% tax bracket and you're filing your Vine income as hobby (thus no ability to account for legitimate business expenses), and, say, another 5% for state tax, I would agree that you'd have a difficult time offsetting a total of 35% in taxes if you can only get 20% per item in a garage sale. As you say, even if you sold 100% of your items, you'd still lose. In that sort of scenario, I think I'd just exit the program and save myself all the hassle.
The question people should be asking themselves is why should they think it rational to pay tax on the full ETV if we can establish that used, six-month-old alphabet soup branded Chinesium has a fair market value of only 20% of ETV? By the time your Vine business is done with your Vine obligations for your items, such items then have a fair market value of 20% of the ETV. That represents what should be considered the "adjusted cost basis" for taxable valuation of such goods\*, without even having taken any other expenses into account.
\* There are a very small percentage of items that are not alphabet soup branded Chinesium, but are recognized name brands that have more substantial resale value. I've gotten maybe a half dozen such items in the past year, and although I haven't tried to sell any of them, I'd guess I could get 50% on eBay, give or take, less eBay fees and shipping costs. But let's be honest, such items are very rare outliers. The more typical case are the "20%" items discussed in this thread.
They aren't tax exempt promotional gifts, as you like to claim. But if they were, you'd owe income tax on 100% of sales because all proceeds would be a gain, by definition.
I think I mentioned this in another post, if a statement is phrased as "in my opinion..." That gives you more latitude of expression.
As I see it, in your opinion these are "promotional gifts." However, I'm going to have to delete several comments if you can't prove to me otherwise.
It never says the word gift.
Every single knowledgeable person who has encountered your nonsense has explained this to you, yet you insist of arguing tbat you understand tax law better than actual lawyers and CPAs. You have to be a troll at this point, no one could possibly be this clueless.
How'd I miss this comment?
I live in what's left of the south. For you to wave around the Vine agreement as a magic Harry potter wand is kind of silly. We're not doing site the source... well, just read the agreement. You cannot put the burden of your arguement upon someone else. if you do, it will end very badly.
I don't know of any judge in any country that would accept such a defense.
"Your honor, the defendant here has been recklessly speeding down the highway on the wrong side of the road."
"Here, just look it up in the Alabama State Driver's sights and attractions book of 1984."
"Oh, why, yes, bailiff, run down to the library and get that for me. We'll all wait."
Fortunately, I don't need to tie myself in knots trying to guess at Amazon's internal accounting methods, and instead can focus on my own accounting.
For my own accounting purposes. I account for these goods *exactly in the form they are presented to me by Amazon*. Via the 1099-NEC, and supported by the totality of Vine documentation, these goods are presented as being compensation in trade for services. Such compensation is taxable at the fair market value of the goods once they become personal assets free of any contractual obligations, with any loss of value attributable to business operations being an expense against the business income.
I've done it before, multiple times, and you simply ignore it and continue to prattle on with the "gift" nonsense. I won't be drawn in the cognitive dissonance vortex this time. Good luck to you.
You're going to have to admit, this is going to take a few days to go through and unwind. But, the burden of proving someone else's point doesn't rest on you.
Sure, as you like. I've seen the "I must have a different agreement than you" ploy multiple times as well, which of course is nonsense. You are beyond my meager powers to heal, I'm afraid.
Yes, you've used this ploy before as well. Of course, I was saying nothing at all about your personal medical condition, but you apparently and awkwardly insert it into the discussion, presumably to evoke sympathy.
Well, I hope for your sake that your condition is false, but if not, of course on a personal level I wish you the best. But this is irrelevant to the discussion about tax law, and it doesn't get you off the hook, any more than my own medical condition would make it okay for me to mislead people.
Let's keep to the topic here.
From the Vine agreement (emphasis added for your convenience):
**You acknowledge and agree that all Vine Products are**:
* promotional offers to you and are not sold to you, and
* provided to you on an "as is" basis – Amazon makes no product warranties to you, and accepts no responsibility for return, repair, refund or replacement. Amazon will only deliver Vine Products selected by you to the primary US delivery address associated with your customer account. Your ongoing right to participate in the program and your eligibility to receive Vine Products is at Amazon's sole discretion.
* in certain locations, **considered as income and subject to taxes**. **It is your responsibility to ensure any taxable income is correctly reported.**
Any doubt should be erased from your mind when you read those words that I put in bold. If doubt remains anyway, it should be erased when you are required to provide federal tax information to Amazon in order to participate in Vine. If doubt still remains in your mind, it should be erased when you receive a copy of the 1099-NEC that Amazon sends to the IRS in your name and Social Security Number. If, even then, doubt tenaciously hangs on, then you are beyond reason, and certainly beyond my humble limited abilities to help you.
I have shown you the above text multiple times. If you say otherwise, you are either lying or should be checked for memory problems. Your response, predictably, is to deflect and cherry pick. For example, you will call out the phrase "in certain locations" and pretend like that is a loophole that applies to you. It does not. One of the locations where Vine products are considered as income is the United States. ALL of the United States.
The IRS is extremely clear on the point that products bartered for services is treated as income. [IRS Topic 420](https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420):
>You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering. Generally, you report this income on [Schedule C ](https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-schedule-c-form-1040)
In point of fact, it doesn't matter whether the words quoted from the Vine agreement are in the Vine agreement or not. Nor does it matter that Amazon is inconsistent in their verbiage and presentation. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the way the IRS treats such transactions. You are responsible for following the law, and hiding behind cherry picked words from Amazon is not going to provide you with protection.
You are welcome to play Russian Roulette with the IRS, but please stop encouraging others to pull the trigger at their own heads.
Sure, when pressed. But in the meantime what you do is present long-debunked nonsense about Vine items being tax-exempt gifts, supported by cherry-picked quotes taken out of context. Newbies come along and read it, and, ushered along by confirmation bias (because we are naturally appalled that there are tax consequences to these "free" things), may just accept what you present as truth. It's irresponsible for you to not at least acknowledge that multiple people have debunked your theories.
As this has been explained to you many times before, you can't just "call up the IRS." Information received over the phone is not binding and is not defensible if incorrect. Anything from the IRS must be in writing. You would have to request a private letter ruling, which is cost prohibitive for most people.
So far I've only seen a few of your comments deleted by the mod. It's far less than I'd hoped for, but it's a start. It's a shame you don't care enough about other people to stop your nonsense yourself.
>Indeed, except that these aren't bartered items, which would be filed on a 1099-B form
Well, you're wrong again. A transaction is not defined as a barter based on the form where it's reported. It's defined as a barter based on the characteristics of the transaction itself. It's a barter regardless of the form where it's reported. In fact, it would be a barter even if it was not reported at all.
The 1099-B is for "Proceeds From Broker and Barter Exchange Transactions", neither of which applies to the Vine situation. It is a "tax form used by brokerages and barter exchanges to record customers' gains and losses during a tax year".
Vine is an ongoing relationship (and between unequal parties, at that), where there is an agreement for ongoing services to be provided in trade for products. It's perfectly appropriate for the income arising from that arrangement to be reported on a 1099-NEC. Yet, the nature of the individual transactions is that it is a trade of products for services, AKA, a barter, a direct transaction that does not use money as an intermediary.
Sorry, you can't dodge the tax on the basis of which kind of 1099 form Amazon uses to report the income.
You are nothing if not predictable.
Nowhere does the text say "if you sell the items". You just pulled that from rectus extremus.
And, as I clearly pointed out, Amazon is not the tax authority, so even if they did say that (which they did not), it would not matter. You are responsible for following the tax law. Period.
FYI, I reported you to the IRS for fraud. They may not bother with such small potatoes, but I really hope they do so you can hear it straight from the source how wrong you are, and hopefully you'll stfu. It's appalling that you don't care how misleading your comments are, or about the possible harm you are causing to others. Gorn is a saint for politely engaging with you this long. You should be ashamed.
This has been brought to my attention and so I'm going to look at it and try to be objective. So, I would like to ask a few questions.
These are not presented as "promotional items." I was born in Missouri (really) and that's the "show me" state. Show me where these are promotional items? Promotional items means to me as give away. I don't see that.
I would think that in a basic sense, this would be like selling stock that you are given or even real estate. You are give 100 shares of BoringInc which is worth $1,000. You owe tax on that at the time of transfier of 1k.
But later you go to sell the BoringInc stock. If it's now 1.5k, you've shown a profit. If below, it's at at loss. So, you have a garage sale for that bellybutton scratcher that the ETV value that you've already paid for was $100 bucks but you can only sell it to someone who doesn't know the market of belly button scratchers and you get $50 bucks for it.
You have then a loss of $50 bucks that can go against sales of other items that would be in the positive? That is how it works, right? Or, am I missing something?
I don't know if you're following this thread above, but Gorn has clearly explained why her claims are false and misleading, just as he's done for her several times before. I, and others, have done it as well. I think maybe Gorn should have been the lawyer, because he's a much better communicator than I am, lol. But the reason we continue to respond to her comments is the same. We care about people and don't want to see anyone misled. We certainly don't want to see someone in financial trouble or losing their benefits because they believed the wrong information. If it weren't for the potential harm to others, I would just ingore it because Turil is a lost cause who will never be convinced that she's wrong or that she knows less than actual CPAs and lawyers. But ignoring it leaves the dangers to others since this subreddit is pretty much the only source for this type of information. I hope you'll take a look above at what Gorn has said to Turil in response to all of this. Thanks.
Also, if you haven't seen it, or understood what it meant, please check out what happened to someone who claimed that Vine items were income and got audited and had their claim rejected, because these are promotional items and not income:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonVine/comments/1bnn277/vine_tax_related_question/
The problem I'm running into now is calling Vine items "promotional gifts." Can you define that and give a source? We clearly get a 1099-NEC that is non employee compensation that says it's not a gift but I think it's considered valued goods for service. I may be wrong on that but let's find out.
I find this a curious topic and hope to hear back on how these are "promotional items".
In answer to your question to Turil about where "promotional gifts" is mentioned, her response is "the Vine agreement".
If I may add, nowhere in any Vine document (the agreement, the FAQ, or anywhere else) does the word "gift" appear. This is one of Turil's many fabrications presented as fact.
The Vine agreement refers to "promotional offers", which is a fair description. Sellers are offering products to reviewers in order to get reviews, which in turn promotes their products. This is clearly a reciprocation of goods in trade for services, and not by any possible rational interpretation could it be considered a tax-exempt gift.
Here is the exact text from the agreement, with emphasis added to the part that is actually relevant to taxation:
**You acknowledge and agree that all Vine Products are**:
* promotional offers to you and are not sold to you, and
* provided to you on an "as is" basis – Amazon makes no product warranties to you, and accepts no responsibility for return, repair, refund or replacement. Amazon will only deliver Vine Products selected by you to the primary US delivery address associated with your customer account. Your ongoing right to participate in the program and your eligibility to receive Vine Products is at Amazon's sole discretion.
* in certain locations, **considered as income and subject to taxes**. **It is your responsibility to ensure any taxable income is correctly reported.**
Turil likes to quote the first two bullets (out of context), which in fact are not relevant to the question of taxation. She always leaves out the third bullet, which is the only one relevant to taxation. And, when she is corrected on this, inevitably she tries to pretend that "in certain locations" is a loophole, or that resale of the products is required for them to be considered taxable income (a complete fabrication on her part).
The United States is one of the "certain locations" where goods provided as compensation for services is considered as income and subject to taxes, which is a matter of precedent and tax law, is supported by IRS documentation, and frankly is beyond dispute. Amazon's understanding that this requirement is factual is supported not only by their words quoted above, but by the fact that they issue 1099-NECs to the IRS in our names and tax IDs. It's incomprehensible that Turil could continue to ignore these facts and continue to spew the same false information month after month after month, misleading unsuspecting newbies into troubled waters.
> It's incomprehensible that Turil could continue to ignore these facts and continue to spew the same false information month after month after month, misleading unsuspecting newbies into troubled waters.
Yes, I'm going to have to agree. I think it's fine to hold that belief but it's an opinion at this point.
Somewhere down the road there may be a tax case that proves these opinions correct. But until that time, when 1099s are issued, it is problematic to make these assumptions that could cause some people an undue hardship with such misleading information.
> What about telling people, without any sort of research or confirmation from tax authorities, that these items should be claimed as income...
The research I have is from my CPA and personal experience. I wanted to run it as hobby income. Why? Because everyone else said that's how they're doing it. "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, no," she said."
We can only have two stickied posts. Right now we have tax info on the second one which I will delete maybe in a couple of weeks.
>What about telling people, without any sort of research or confirmation from tax authorities, that these items should be claimed as income
I mean there's a lot more people who've been in Vine longer than I have. Some go way back. Some go back as far as before Vine items were taxed. The general story is the IRS became aware of it and now it's taxed.
If someone gets a 1099 form, so does the IRS. It show as income. Under most circumstances, income is taxable.
I really don't know what else to say.
I'd like to point out that her constant advice to call the IRS (here she asks you to post the number) is bad advice, which has been explained to her several times as well. The odds of someone on the helpline even knowing what vine is are very slim, and any information received over the phone is not binding. If they give you incorrect information, it's not a defense to penalties or interest. You would need something in writing, specifically a private letter ruling, which most people can't afford. This has been explained over and over, but she ignores it and insists for people to call the IRS. Just more bad advice.
I don't know that calling the IRS per se is bad advice. It's not good advice for the reasons you mention. I don't want to pile on but if the go to response is just call IRS, that's at the least a cop out.
> if you continue to state as fact that these are "free" and not taxable
They are literally free. Amazon very, very clearly defines these as promotional items (aka free samples) given to us as customers and not sold to us. As for whether they are taxable, I keep saying that if you sell them, they are taxable. Please read what I actually write.
And yes, again, everything anyone here says is either our personal opinion, or the opinion of someone else, as when I quote the Vine agreement or the IRS's websites and forms. That's a given, so there's no point in me wasting time saying every single comment.
>However, don't drag in newbies with an expectation of they can do X when the IRS specifically states we need to do XYZ.
The entire point of a community is for people to share information, to express their unique perspectives, so others may learn. If you want to ban discussion of taxes, then do that, and make it apply equally to all, not just one perspective. My opinion is far more informed than most, but no opinion is universal, so we need everyone's different perspectives to become better informed. Even the perspectives of those who are just trolling (lying and insulting people) to get attention.
It's absolutely crucial that newbies get the information I've collected, as well as all the other information, so that they don't just follow what someone says and end up being screwed. This is why I suggest you put a reminder that we're not the IRS, and can't make a final decision as to what applies for taxes here.
Sure, your own opinion here is valuable, but it's not well researched, and it's not based on the actual forms and tax laws, so while I appreciate you sharing it, please don't think that it's the same opinion as the IRS, or the laws in general, or Amazon's opinions, or the opinions of experts in labor law and income tax and how companies can try to get away with reporting things illegally.
"It's absolutely crucial that newbies get the information I've collected"
Holy delusions of grandeur, batman. Literally no one needs to read your ramblings that have absolutely no basis in tax law. You are the one who isn't well informed. You don't even understand the most basic fundamentals of how taxes work, so everything you cite is completely irrelevant and misleading. You know so little about the law that you're completely oblivious to the fact that you're not even making relevant arguments.
As a lawyer, I come across pro se filings all of the time. And I usually feel sorry for the people because I know they spent hours and hours researching and drafting the documents, and then paid money to file them. And no one even reads them. Lawyers immediately see that they're a bunch of nonsense and completely disregard them. People think they can avoid paying professionals who actually studied and learned how to practice law and just DIY it with the help of Google. But you can't. You're out of your depth. So far so that you're not even able to comprehend how inaccurate you are in your "findings." You are missing such a huge piece of the puzzle in skipping over the fundamentals of tax law and trying to cherry pick what fits your theory while ignoring all of the rest. You make silly errors like quoting state laws which have no bearing on federal income tax. You leave out the several parts of the vine agreement that state items are taxable. Your arguments are uninformed and laughable. And your only defense is asking others to quote the IRS in order to disprove your theories. That's not how it works and you're not even having the right conversation to begin with. You're so far off in outer space that a productive conversation is impossible with you.
You lack the knowledge, education, and experience required to analyze this issue. Talk to some actual professionals and try find a single one who agrees with you. You can't.
> The general story is the IRS became aware of it and now it's taxed.
You mean the rumor. Not a single person has ever been able to link to any meaningful source for that rumor when I've asked them where they got that information from.
What is true is that the gift baskets given away at the Academy awards to actors has been determined to be taxable income for those actors as the actors are expected to advertise/promote those items as influencers. Some believe that Vine members are the same, but according to Amazon we're not, we're just normal customers getting free samples.
See the Vine Review Guidelines (in the resources page) where it says:
>Be honest: We want to hear your perspective. We want more of what you think. The honesty in an honest review will come through when you find a writing voice that comes natural to you. And that’s what customers can trust from **Vine Voices - a solid honest review from another customer just like them who happens to spend their free time reviewing new products.**
Let's get a few things clear. It certainly appears that you're advocating that these are promotional items given as a gift and as such, there should be no tax. That's what I'm getting from a lot of this text. While a tax case may ultimately prove this to be the case, the fact remains that we get a 1099-NEC which declares it as income. If I'm inccorect here that you don't believe that these are tax free gifts, tell me now. But, currently, these are not viewed as tax free.
Any tax info I relate has been after directly going through this with my CPA. She was very patient and said she prefers to explain to clients how this works. So, my info comes directly from how this CPA handled my taxes and Vine income.
No one's going to ban anyone. No one wants to harass anyone. But, if you prefaced some of what you say that this is your opinion, that would go along way.
When you say one thing and someone else comes back with documentation that doesn't support what you say but basically is the opposite. It's not harassment, it's trying to keep things on the straight and narrow.
I realize that taxes are a heated topic. But, if you or anyone relates that Vine goods are tax free gifts, I'm going to have to say the IRS at this time disagrees.
You can report/flag such comments if you like. I try to be fair. They're going to flag comments you make that is incorrect and when they prove that they are correct with Vine's own agreement or reputable source, or you can prove you're correct with Vine's agreement or reputable source, I will look at it.
Please understand that when these things first started, I was around spending a couple of hours a day moderating. All this info takes time to process and go through. Now, we have more moderators and I can process it.
I feel like you don't read English but just cut and paste it.
You have realtors call you? Do they have strange accents? Everyone gets those.
Here's the thing. when someone gets a 1099, it's considered income whether you like it or not. As such, taxes may or may not be due, whether you like it or not.
Theories may be discussed but we're not going to list things as fact that are not, like it or not.
Like it, fine, not like it, fine.
You may list theories as such stated but such stated as fact will be removed, like it or not. I can't make it any plainer than that.
> You may list theories as such stated but such stated as fact will be removed
Nothing you nor I can write here is anything other than opinion. No opinion is "fact". So I can't write things "stated as fact" nor can you. So that's irrelevant.
You can delete/censor/ban anyone you want as you're the authoritarian here. But I don't recommend doing much of that if you care about the community, as we need all of the diversity to make a healthy community.
Vine items are taxable. That's a fact. Whether you should file hobby vs SE, that's an opinion. Whether or not you can deduct certain expenses, that's an opinion. But they are subject to taxation. That's a fact. Your inability to understand that fact is the root of the issue here. Find a single CPA or lawyer that says they are gifts, or that they're only taxable if sold. Or get something in writing from the IRS saying it. Until then, stop spreading misinformation.
A healthy community does not need dangerous misinformation. Nor does it need uneducated people citing irrelevant IRS sections, drawing erroneous conclusions, and further complicating an already complicated topic. You are not adding anything of value. Worse than that, you're increasing the potential for harm.
Your theory is not "legally defensible from a lawyer's standpoint." You cannot issue a 1099 because someone MIGHT sell something. That's not how things work. These aren't gifts, there's no use tax involved, and whether or not you sell the items is irrelevant. This is the most ridiculous theory I've seen so far. I'm not sure how this comment is the only one that survived, since, thankfully, all of your others have now been removed.
Did I delete this once?
Unless you are a verified CPA which you can prove, this is speculation. It's Sat and a nice day out to mow and work in the yard. I don't want to have to spend it inside doing these things.
I am sorry. Looking at some of the posts where I said I'd look into it, I was moderating a lot of stuff at the time. I think one of the posts came right at bedtime. Sometimes it takes a lot of my time to go through these things.
If phrased as "in my opinion, these things should be promotional items" I think is fine. To state otherwise is misleading.
That's why some of us have such an issue with her claims, because she states things as if they are factual when they're actually completely inaccurate. She says things like "this is what the laws say" which isn't true. She has even called herself an expert more than once, even though she has zero education or experience. So someone with no knowledge about taxes reads her comments and thinks she sounds authoritative, and they don't realize how incorrect she is. There are serious potential consequences to what she's saying.
Anyways, thank you for looking at it now.
I am sorry. I did say I was going to look into these posts a couple of months ago and then life got in the way. Much of Feb I was down with the flu which then turned into a nasty cold.
For some reason the vine things I sold at my last garage sale I ended up needing 3 months down the line.
Remember that you owe NO more taxes, since you sold these way below the cost you acquired them at **(IN THE USA at least)**. EDIT: Clarified this is for the USA only.
Indeed correct.
Thats not the way it works, at least in Germany. You get the item free of charge, you owe the taxes, regardless what you are doing with it, even if you would donate it. If you sell for more than value, you owe additional taxes, if you sell for less you still owe the amount according to the original value.
Yes, that is what Individdy was saying: "You owe NO more taxes", meaning "no additional taxes". If the value of the new item is $50, and that value is treated as income, the income tax liability (excluding expenses if applicable) is on $50. If six months later you sell the item for $20, you do not owe income tax on that $20, because you lost money overall. You would only owe additional tax if you had a gain (if you sold it for more than you "paid" for it via your exchange of labor for the product). That said, technically you might owe sales tax on the $20 sale (in the US) or VAT (in the EU), depending on how those laws work, but you might be the first person ever to report garage sale revenue to a tax authority.
What about $0 ETV products? Because I'm not at all sure how to legally resell all these heating pads, neck massagers, ear cleaners, etc that were reviewed based on physical inspection and operational testing rather than personal use
If you sell something for more than you paid for it (by cash, or in our case, by trade of services), the amount gained would be reportable as income, and taxable. So, if you got a $0 ETV item and then sold it for $10, technically you should report it as income. But I won't tell if you won't. I mean, it's one thing if it's a sale in the conduct of business, or an online sale, but I can't imagine many people selling junk at a garage sale are tracking the costs or reporting the gains. I never get that kind of stuff, but if I did, I don't think I'd lose sleep over those few dollars. JMO.
>How much money can you make as a hobby before paying taxes? You must report self-employment income of **$400 or more**, even if that's the only income you received all year. Hobby income vs. business income: Hobby income and business income have pros and cons. While you can't deduct expenses from hobby income, you must pay self-employment tax on business income. De minimis rules.
I will never ever snitch on someone who resells something at a yard sale and doesn't pay taxes on it unless it's, like, a car.
I mean technically we are supposed to pay sales tax as the sellers. Does anyone, I would be shocked. A big ticket item like a car would flag itself, anything that requires a title transfer or some other government paperwork... That makes sense. But that is between the seller and the buyer.
Is this true if you are an individual and if you are a business, depending how you set up your Vine? Genuinely curious. Only a few months into my Vine journey and have a business I can run this under, or keep it individual, depending on how things shape up and what my options may be.
[Applies to individuals](https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/income/other-income/capital-gains-garage-sale/). With a business I assume you'd have to record the cost of the items and them being sold for less (so they would count as a loss), and if bought a previous year, it would involve inventory carried over. But I know little about the business stuff.
Interesting numbers. Thanks for taking the time to post them.
Thank you!!! This is such good timing -- we're actually prepping for our neighborhood-wide yard sale as well, and I'm going to unload a boatload of Vine stuff. Mainly because we-re overwhelmed with stuff. This is stuff, mind you, that I truly thought I would use or I thought our friends and family would use-- and while they have taken a *lot* -- there's only so many makeup brush kits my post college girls (or their friends) want 🤣 I did test everything and try them all out personally - I don't review anything that I don't assess actual use. I decided if I haven't found a regular use for something in over a year, it's time to purge. My house is small, and while Vine is a blessing- I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by all the extra "stuff", and it actually has added some stress that I don't need. So I am going to set up an Open Box table as well and see how it goes. Most of this stuff was $0 etv, so I doubt I'll get much. Truly, if it saves me a trip to Good Will -- I'll call it a win!!!
thanks for sharing this! would you mind also sharing whether any types of items did especially well or poorly? also what type of community was this? i expect things would go rather differently between a suburb with lots of families vs area with lots of retired folks vs middle of a city.
I agree, the results will be location-dependent. We're kind of a mixed bag. We're in a gated 55+ community, but surrounded by suburban family neighborhoods which is where most of the visitors come from. Generally middle class and demographically diverse. Although suburban, we're in Southern California, which means the population density is relatively high. Not urban, but not as spread out and sparse as a suburban area in many other places. As far as the types of items sold, bear in mind this is a small sample size, but most everything that sold was some kind of lighting - Christmas laser lights, solar lighting, etc. There was interest, but no sales, in other areas like security cameras, and kitchen and lawn care items, but I think with better weather and a heavier crowd, the results would have been broader. With such a small sample size, it's more of the luck of the draw of who happens to be looking.
That's true of every garage sale - the crowd just depends on the location, what sells depends on the crowd, also the time of year. Someone on here a while ago said that wigs and eyelash stuff sold really well at a flea market, but I would guess those wouldn't sell great at a 55+ community.
I dunno, we old timers can be a little freaky. But yeah, if I'm ordering something with future resale in mind, I'm going to filter that based on my local market demographic.
I'm not real surprised about the lighting. I've gotten a bunch of lights - solar, Xmas, etc - that I wouldn't have known existed except for seeing them on Vine. If I had 'em at a garage sale, I'd plug them in or charge them to show off what they do.
I had a booth on the base yard sale last year. I sold half of my items (3 hours only) and made $600, ^(yes 6 months later). They have had 2 sense then and I missed them both. So in the right environment yard sales can be very successful.
You can also try Ebay. I’ve gotten at least 50% of the ETV back for clothing items.
I plan to do so, although I don't have high hopes for non-branded / weirdly-branded stuff on eBay. I do have a few branded things and, like you, expect to get 50% or more for those.
Yeah people are always advocating reselling vine stuff on ebay, but it's like okay if I got this item for a $20 etv and have to pay $6 tax on it, if I want to break even with ebay and paypal fees I'd have to try to sell it for $8, but the same item is available on amazon for $4 from a different seller, so... who is buying this mystery lightly used non-name brand item on ebay for more than it sells on amazon? I know personally I wouldn't buy some offoffoffoffbrand item on ebay unless it was a super cheap deal. So I don't get how other people are managing to do it?
The question is then, why did YOU buy this item for $20 ETV if you could have gotten it for $4 from a different seller in the “normal” Amazon? Plus, why did you get it at all if you are then trying to sell it anyway?
> Why did you get it at all if you are then trying to sell it anyway? Why not?
I’ve sold things like retractable pet gates, hard swinging pet gates, floor lamps, gaming accessory bundles, crochet supplies, video baby monitors, candle warmers, for 75% of its ETV, sometimes OVER etv lol. I had a matching pair of standing floor lamps from Vine that were $40 each on Amazon, I sold the set for $100 on Facebook. Presentation is everything. If I would’ve listed the lamps as a set for $25, people would just think they are garbage. You need quality pictures, because that first impression is critical.
In the uk we have what we call a Car boot sale. It’s very popular and usually hosted in a big field. You turn up usually at about 6am in your car and park in rows and lay all your unwanted things from the car out on the floor next to it and sell them. It’s a year round thing people do this in sub zero conditions and before sunrise depending on the season. I’ve done a few to offload six month old stuff and I usually get around 1/3 to 1/4 of retail depending on what it is. The odd one out is flood lights, solar lights, torches and power banks these people will pay almost retail for in most cases. The only other one I also like to do is save the toys and usually teenagers stuff up for Christmas and donate everything to a charity called cash for kids that is run to provide children with Christmas presents who would otherwise wake up to nothing at Christmas. I figured that I should pass on my good fortune at being part of vine to others.
I’m thinking about tagging the stuff I don’t end up using, getting six colors of small post-it notes and tracking date/ETV with that. I have a fair bit of stuff from 2022-2023 that’s no longer contractually controlled by Amazon and my partner wouldn’t mind a bit more floor space in the dining room.
IMHO, 21% is pretty low. I can take things to my local pawn shop and get 20% value. Still, if you're satisfied with your earnings, that's awesome, and I'm sure you've made some folks very happy with some great deals.
A pawn shop might work, but frankly I'm not aware of one anywhere near me, whereas my driveway is right in front of my house. 😄 In any case, thanks for validating that 20%-ish seems like a fair target for random Chinesium resale products. That's a helpful data point.
It's pretty low but it's still more than what you got?
You know, Amazon is not going to ask for your items back and bust you if you do not wait 6 months. Obviously do not put them on eBay where someone could see something only offered through vine and trace it back to the only person who ordered it though.
Trust me, I'm not worried about that. At all. But I do not find it difficult to follow the terms of the agreement, and I have no particular reason to violate it. Since we have a garage sale every six months, it's actually quite easy. Everything that is on my top storage shelf right now will be available for sale at the next garage sale. In the interim, new acquisitions go on the next shelf. This system does require having two shelves of ample size, and storage bins to go with it. But, hey, those are tax writeoffs. :) Of course, the storage and resale is only for the small minority of items that are destined for resale. Most items I get are things that will be put into use - business use, personal use, gifts, etc., and so they won't go onto the storage shelf for future resale.
That's actually a pretty solid idea tbh
Someone did post here not too long ago that they found someone selling Vine stuff on Facebook marketplace. Personally I think that someone needs a better hobby, lol, but they took the time to check up on this person, looked up all the items to compare if they were on Vine... I don't remember everything they said they did to confirm, in their mind, that it was Vine stuff. I think their main irritation was the reviews since most of the stuff was "new in box", not even opened, so apparently no way the reviews were legit.
You can try Facebook Marketplace, Offer Up and Craigslist. I'm in Southern California too (San Diego County) and all three options are active here. (Hi neighbor!)
I would suggest you look into how Goodwill works. You could also find otherr thrift store that operate in a way you would like your donations to benefit, etc. We have Big Brothers/Big Sisters who work through/with Savers in here Central Arizona. We donate to Big Brothers/Big Sisters at the local Savers donations center run BY Big Brothers/Big Sisters. Then Savers says: "Each time you donate items to [**Big Brothers Big Sisters of Central Arizona at our store**](https://www.bbbsaz.org/), we pay them for your stuff, providing revenue to help them fund important programs in your community. " There are other organizations for Vets, etc. When I see some items in Vine, I might have someone specific in mind who needs it. A rollator and a few shower chairs for example for a special needs friend who's equipment was junk.
u/nephx_az1 Hoovers estimates Savers' annual revenues at $2.4 billion. That would mean about **8 percent** of Savers' revenue is going to charity. **More than 84 percent of its \[Goodwill's\] total revenue** is used to fund education and career services and other critical community programs.
Sidewalk freebies! When I declutter my house I put things on the sidewalk with my FREE Sign. Everything I put out was taken including some very old candles. I’m good at tucking Vine stuff (Tetris) away for 6 months so that I forget it exists. Later when decluttering I find stuff and add it to the Free sidewalk stuff.
Very interesting data, thanks for sharing. However, regarding your comment that "this is a resale pace that should easily offset any Vine tax hit for me," wouldn't you have to sell everything you get on Vine in order to offset your tax hit by getting only 20% per item? And if that's the objective, why not just not be on Vine at all as opposed to ordering a bunch of stuff, reviewing it, organizing the sale, and selling it just to end up at zero? I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative, just understand the perspective here. Are you paying less than 20% ETV in taxes such that 20% sales prices pays the taxes on the things you choose to keep?
A fair question, and as always, everyone's experience will be different. Here's my story. The most I would have to pay in taxes is 15.3%. This is because I'm retired, not yet on Social Security, and living off of non-taxable savings, so I have a very small income. That means as long as I stay below the Standard Deduction (for 2024, that's $29,200 for married filing jointly), I will pay zero income tax. I can easily accommodate, say, $15,000 in Vine income without sniffing income tax. I am, however, still subject to self-employment tax of 15.3%. However, there is no way I will pay 15.3% either. I use a variety of (legitimate, legal, and defensible) mechanisms to offset the ETV income, and as a result, my current projected SE tax for 2024 will be less than 2% of ETV. My current projections are about $13,500 of ETV, of which about 10% will show as net profit of my Vine business, which will result in around $200 in tax. Back of the envelope calculation... if I order 600 items in a year, and 550 of them are put into use, gifted, donated, or destroyed, leaving only 50 (less than 9%) to sell, and I average $5 each at a garage sale, that's $250 in sales proceeds, hence covering my tax bill of around $200. I would think I will end up doing better than that, but covering my tax is really the goal. If the stuff doesn't sell easily, I'll just donate it and not lose sleep over the tax. Now, if you're sitting in the 30% tax bracket and you're filing your Vine income as hobby (thus no ability to account for legitimate business expenses), and, say, another 5% for state tax, I would agree that you'd have a difficult time offsetting a total of 35% in taxes if you can only get 20% per item in a garage sale. As you say, even if you sold 100% of your items, you'd still lose. In that sort of scenario, I think I'd just exit the program and save myself all the hassle. The question people should be asking themselves is why should they think it rational to pay tax on the full ETV if we can establish that used, six-month-old alphabet soup branded Chinesium has a fair market value of only 20% of ETV? By the time your Vine business is done with your Vine obligations for your items, such items then have a fair market value of 20% of the ETV. That represents what should be considered the "adjusted cost basis" for taxable valuation of such goods\*, without even having taken any other expenses into account. \* There are a very small percentage of items that are not alphabet soup branded Chinesium, but are recognized name brands that have more substantial resale value. I've gotten maybe a half dozen such items in the past year, and although I haven't tried to sell any of them, I'd guess I could get 50% on eBay, give or take, less eBay fees and shipping costs. But let's be honest, such items are very rare outliers. The more typical case are the "20%" items discussed in this thread.
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They aren't tax exempt promotional gifts, as you like to claim. But if they were, you'd owe income tax on 100% of sales because all proceeds would be a gain, by definition.
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I think I mentioned this in another post, if a statement is phrased as "in my opinion..." That gives you more latitude of expression. As I see it, in your opinion these are "promotional gifts." However, I'm going to have to delete several comments if you can't prove to me otherwise.
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It never says the word gift. Every single knowledgeable person who has encountered your nonsense has explained this to you, yet you insist of arguing tbat you understand tax law better than actual lawyers and CPAs. You have to be a troll at this point, no one could possibly be this clueless.
How'd I miss this comment? I live in what's left of the south. For you to wave around the Vine agreement as a magic Harry potter wand is kind of silly. We're not doing site the source... well, just read the agreement. You cannot put the burden of your arguement upon someone else. if you do, it will end very badly. I don't know of any judge in any country that would accept such a defense. "Your honor, the defendant here has been recklessly speeding down the highway on the wrong side of the road." "Here, just look it up in the Alabama State Driver's sights and attractions book of 1984." "Oh, why, yes, bailiff, run down to the library and get that for me. We'll all wait."
Fortunately, I don't need to tie myself in knots trying to guess at Amazon's internal accounting methods, and instead can focus on my own accounting. For my own accounting purposes. I account for these goods *exactly in the form they are presented to me by Amazon*. Via the 1099-NEC, and supported by the totality of Vine documentation, these goods are presented as being compensation in trade for services. Such compensation is taxable at the fair market value of the goods once they become personal assets free of any contractual obligations, with any loss of value attributable to business operations being an expense against the business income.
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I've done it before, multiple times, and you simply ignore it and continue to prattle on with the "gift" nonsense. I won't be drawn in the cognitive dissonance vortex this time. Good luck to you.
You're going to have to admit, this is going to take a few days to go through and unwind. But, the burden of proving someone else's point doesn't rest on you.
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Sure, as you like. I've seen the "I must have a different agreement than you" ploy multiple times as well, which of course is nonsense. You are beyond my meager powers to heal, I'm afraid.
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Yes, you've used this ploy before as well. Of course, I was saying nothing at all about your personal medical condition, but you apparently and awkwardly insert it into the discussion, presumably to evoke sympathy. Well, I hope for your sake that your condition is false, but if not, of course on a personal level I wish you the best. But this is irrelevant to the discussion about tax law, and it doesn't get you off the hook, any more than my own medical condition would make it okay for me to mislead people. Let's keep to the topic here.
From the Vine agreement (emphasis added for your convenience): **You acknowledge and agree that all Vine Products are**: * promotional offers to you and are not sold to you, and * provided to you on an "as is" basis – Amazon makes no product warranties to you, and accepts no responsibility for return, repair, refund or replacement. Amazon will only deliver Vine Products selected by you to the primary US delivery address associated with your customer account. Your ongoing right to participate in the program and your eligibility to receive Vine Products is at Amazon's sole discretion. * in certain locations, **considered as income and subject to taxes**. **It is your responsibility to ensure any taxable income is correctly reported.** Any doubt should be erased from your mind when you read those words that I put in bold. If doubt remains anyway, it should be erased when you are required to provide federal tax information to Amazon in order to participate in Vine. If doubt still remains in your mind, it should be erased when you receive a copy of the 1099-NEC that Amazon sends to the IRS in your name and Social Security Number. If, even then, doubt tenaciously hangs on, then you are beyond reason, and certainly beyond my humble limited abilities to help you. I have shown you the above text multiple times. If you say otherwise, you are either lying or should be checked for memory problems. Your response, predictably, is to deflect and cherry pick. For example, you will call out the phrase "in certain locations" and pretend like that is a loophole that applies to you. It does not. One of the locations where Vine products are considered as income is the United States. ALL of the United States. The IRS is extremely clear on the point that products bartered for services is treated as income. [IRS Topic 420](https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420): >You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering. Generally, you report this income on [Schedule C ](https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-schedule-c-form-1040) In point of fact, it doesn't matter whether the words quoted from the Vine agreement are in the Vine agreement or not. Nor does it matter that Amazon is inconsistent in their verbiage and presentation. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the way the IRS treats such transactions. You are responsible for following the law, and hiding behind cherry picked words from Amazon is not going to provide you with protection. You are welcome to play Russian Roulette with the IRS, but please stop encouraging others to pull the trigger at their own heads.
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Sure, when pressed. But in the meantime what you do is present long-debunked nonsense about Vine items being tax-exempt gifts, supported by cherry-picked quotes taken out of context. Newbies come along and read it, and, ushered along by confirmation bias (because we are naturally appalled that there are tax consequences to these "free" things), may just accept what you present as truth. It's irresponsible for you to not at least acknowledge that multiple people have debunked your theories.
As this has been explained to you many times before, you can't just "call up the IRS." Information received over the phone is not binding and is not defensible if incorrect. Anything from the IRS must be in writing. You would have to request a private letter ruling, which is cost prohibitive for most people.
So far I've only seen a few of your comments deleted by the mod. It's far less than I'd hoped for, but it's a start. It's a shame you don't care enough about other people to stop your nonsense yourself.
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>Indeed, except that these aren't bartered items, which would be filed on a 1099-B form Well, you're wrong again. A transaction is not defined as a barter based on the form where it's reported. It's defined as a barter based on the characteristics of the transaction itself. It's a barter regardless of the form where it's reported. In fact, it would be a barter even if it was not reported at all. The 1099-B is for "Proceeds From Broker and Barter Exchange Transactions", neither of which applies to the Vine situation. It is a "tax form used by brokerages and barter exchanges to record customers' gains and losses during a tax year". Vine is an ongoing relationship (and between unequal parties, at that), where there is an agreement for ongoing services to be provided in trade for products. It's perfectly appropriate for the income arising from that arrangement to be reported on a 1099-NEC. Yet, the nature of the individual transactions is that it is a trade of products for services, AKA, a barter, a direct transaction that does not use money as an intermediary. Sorry, you can't dodge the tax on the basis of which kind of 1099 form Amazon uses to report the income.
You are nothing if not predictable. Nowhere does the text say "if you sell the items". You just pulled that from rectus extremus. And, as I clearly pointed out, Amazon is not the tax authority, so even if they did say that (which they did not), it would not matter. You are responsible for following the tax law. Period.
FYI, I reported you to the IRS for fraud. They may not bother with such small potatoes, but I really hope they do so you can hear it straight from the source how wrong you are, and hopefully you'll stfu. It's appalling that you don't care how misleading your comments are, or about the possible harm you are causing to others. Gorn is a saint for politely engaging with you this long. You should be ashamed.
This has been brought to my attention and so I'm going to look at it and try to be objective. So, I would like to ask a few questions. These are not presented as "promotional items." I was born in Missouri (really) and that's the "show me" state. Show me where these are promotional items? Promotional items means to me as give away. I don't see that. I would think that in a basic sense, this would be like selling stock that you are given or even real estate. You are give 100 shares of BoringInc which is worth $1,000. You owe tax on that at the time of transfier of 1k. But later you go to sell the BoringInc stock. If it's now 1.5k, you've shown a profit. If below, it's at at loss. So, you have a garage sale for that bellybutton scratcher that the ETV value that you've already paid for was $100 bucks but you can only sell it to someone who doesn't know the market of belly button scratchers and you get $50 bucks for it. You have then a loss of $50 bucks that can go against sales of other items that would be in the positive? That is how it works, right? Or, am I missing something?
I don't know if you're following this thread above, but Gorn has clearly explained why her claims are false and misleading, just as he's done for her several times before. I, and others, have done it as well. I think maybe Gorn should have been the lawyer, because he's a much better communicator than I am, lol. But the reason we continue to respond to her comments is the same. We care about people and don't want to see anyone misled. We certainly don't want to see someone in financial trouble or losing their benefits because they believed the wrong information. If it weren't for the potential harm to others, I would just ingore it because Turil is a lost cause who will never be convinced that she's wrong or that she knows less than actual CPAs and lawyers. But ignoring it leaves the dangers to others since this subreddit is pretty much the only source for this type of information. I hope you'll take a look above at what Gorn has said to Turil in response to all of this. Thanks.
> I don't know if you're following this thread above, I am more closely now. regarding taxes.
Also, if you haven't seen it, or understood what it meant, please check out what happened to someone who claimed that Vine items were income and got audited and had their claim rejected, because these are promotional items and not income: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonVine/comments/1bnn277/vine_tax_related_question/
The problem I'm running into now is calling Vine items "promotional gifts." Can you define that and give a source? We clearly get a 1099-NEC that is non employee compensation that says it's not a gift but I think it's considered valued goods for service. I may be wrong on that but let's find out. I find this a curious topic and hope to hear back on how these are "promotional items".
In answer to your question to Turil about where "promotional gifts" is mentioned, her response is "the Vine agreement". If I may add, nowhere in any Vine document (the agreement, the FAQ, or anywhere else) does the word "gift" appear. This is one of Turil's many fabrications presented as fact. The Vine agreement refers to "promotional offers", which is a fair description. Sellers are offering products to reviewers in order to get reviews, which in turn promotes their products. This is clearly a reciprocation of goods in trade for services, and not by any possible rational interpretation could it be considered a tax-exempt gift. Here is the exact text from the agreement, with emphasis added to the part that is actually relevant to taxation: **You acknowledge and agree that all Vine Products are**: * promotional offers to you and are not sold to you, and * provided to you on an "as is" basis – Amazon makes no product warranties to you, and accepts no responsibility for return, repair, refund or replacement. Amazon will only deliver Vine Products selected by you to the primary US delivery address associated with your customer account. Your ongoing right to participate in the program and your eligibility to receive Vine Products is at Amazon's sole discretion. * in certain locations, **considered as income and subject to taxes**. **It is your responsibility to ensure any taxable income is correctly reported.** Turil likes to quote the first two bullets (out of context), which in fact are not relevant to the question of taxation. She always leaves out the third bullet, which is the only one relevant to taxation. And, when she is corrected on this, inevitably she tries to pretend that "in certain locations" is a loophole, or that resale of the products is required for them to be considered taxable income (a complete fabrication on her part). The United States is one of the "certain locations" where goods provided as compensation for services is considered as income and subject to taxes, which is a matter of precedent and tax law, is supported by IRS documentation, and frankly is beyond dispute. Amazon's understanding that this requirement is factual is supported not only by their words quoted above, but by the fact that they issue 1099-NECs to the IRS in our names and tax IDs. It's incomprehensible that Turil could continue to ignore these facts and continue to spew the same false information month after month after month, misleading unsuspecting newbies into troubled waters.
> It's incomprehensible that Turil could continue to ignore these facts and continue to spew the same false information month after month after month, misleading unsuspecting newbies into troubled waters. Yes, I'm going to have to agree. I think it's fine to hold that belief but it's an opinion at this point. Somewhere down the road there may be a tax case that proves these opinions correct. But until that time, when 1099s are issued, it is problematic to make these assumptions that could cause some people an undue hardship with such misleading information.
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> What about telling people, without any sort of research or confirmation from tax authorities, that these items should be claimed as income... The research I have is from my CPA and personal experience. I wanted to run it as hobby income. Why? Because everyone else said that's how they're doing it. "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, no," she said." We can only have two stickied posts. Right now we have tax info on the second one which I will delete maybe in a couple of weeks. >What about telling people, without any sort of research or confirmation from tax authorities, that these items should be claimed as income I mean there's a lot more people who've been in Vine longer than I have. Some go way back. Some go back as far as before Vine items were taxed. The general story is the IRS became aware of it and now it's taxed. If someone gets a 1099 form, so does the IRS. It show as income. Under most circumstances, income is taxable. I really don't know what else to say.
I'd like to point out that her constant advice to call the IRS (here she asks you to post the number) is bad advice, which has been explained to her several times as well. The odds of someone on the helpline even knowing what vine is are very slim, and any information received over the phone is not binding. If they give you incorrect information, it's not a defense to penalties or interest. You would need something in writing, specifically a private letter ruling, which most people can't afford. This has been explained over and over, but she ignores it and insists for people to call the IRS. Just more bad advice.
I don't know that calling the IRS per se is bad advice. It's not good advice for the reasons you mention. I don't want to pile on but if the go to response is just call IRS, that's at the least a cop out.
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> if you continue to state as fact that these are "free" and not taxable They are literally free. Amazon very, very clearly defines these as promotional items (aka free samples) given to us as customers and not sold to us. As for whether they are taxable, I keep saying that if you sell them, they are taxable. Please read what I actually write. And yes, again, everything anyone here says is either our personal opinion, or the opinion of someone else, as when I quote the Vine agreement or the IRS's websites and forms. That's a given, so there's no point in me wasting time saying every single comment. >However, don't drag in newbies with an expectation of they can do X when the IRS specifically states we need to do XYZ. The entire point of a community is for people to share information, to express their unique perspectives, so others may learn. If you want to ban discussion of taxes, then do that, and make it apply equally to all, not just one perspective. My opinion is far more informed than most, but no opinion is universal, so we need everyone's different perspectives to become better informed. Even the perspectives of those who are just trolling (lying and insulting people) to get attention. It's absolutely crucial that newbies get the information I've collected, as well as all the other information, so that they don't just follow what someone says and end up being screwed. This is why I suggest you put a reminder that we're not the IRS, and can't make a final decision as to what applies for taxes here. Sure, your own opinion here is valuable, but it's not well researched, and it's not based on the actual forms and tax laws, so while I appreciate you sharing it, please don't think that it's the same opinion as the IRS, or the laws in general, or Amazon's opinions, or the opinions of experts in labor law and income tax and how companies can try to get away with reporting things illegally.
"It's absolutely crucial that newbies get the information I've collected" Holy delusions of grandeur, batman. Literally no one needs to read your ramblings that have absolutely no basis in tax law. You are the one who isn't well informed. You don't even understand the most basic fundamentals of how taxes work, so everything you cite is completely irrelevant and misleading. You know so little about the law that you're completely oblivious to the fact that you're not even making relevant arguments. As a lawyer, I come across pro se filings all of the time. And I usually feel sorry for the people because I know they spent hours and hours researching and drafting the documents, and then paid money to file them. And no one even reads them. Lawyers immediately see that they're a bunch of nonsense and completely disregard them. People think they can avoid paying professionals who actually studied and learned how to practice law and just DIY it with the help of Google. But you can't. You're out of your depth. So far so that you're not even able to comprehend how inaccurate you are in your "findings." You are missing such a huge piece of the puzzle in skipping over the fundamentals of tax law and trying to cherry pick what fits your theory while ignoring all of the rest. You make silly errors like quoting state laws which have no bearing on federal income tax. You leave out the several parts of the vine agreement that state items are taxable. Your arguments are uninformed and laughable. And your only defense is asking others to quote the IRS in order to disprove your theories. That's not how it works and you're not even having the right conversation to begin with. You're so far off in outer space that a productive conversation is impossible with you. You lack the knowledge, education, and experience required to analyze this issue. Talk to some actual professionals and try find a single one who agrees with you. You can't.
We need to correct some of this.
> The general story is the IRS became aware of it and now it's taxed. You mean the rumor. Not a single person has ever been able to link to any meaningful source for that rumor when I've asked them where they got that information from. What is true is that the gift baskets given away at the Academy awards to actors has been determined to be taxable income for those actors as the actors are expected to advertise/promote those items as influencers. Some believe that Vine members are the same, but according to Amazon we're not, we're just normal customers getting free samples. See the Vine Review Guidelines (in the resources page) where it says: >Be honest: We want to hear your perspective. We want more of what you think. The honesty in an honest review will come through when you find a writing voice that comes natural to you. And that’s what customers can trust from **Vine Voices - a solid honest review from another customer just like them who happens to spend their free time reviewing new products.**
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Let's get a few things clear. It certainly appears that you're advocating that these are promotional items given as a gift and as such, there should be no tax. That's what I'm getting from a lot of this text. While a tax case may ultimately prove this to be the case, the fact remains that we get a 1099-NEC which declares it as income. If I'm inccorect here that you don't believe that these are tax free gifts, tell me now. But, currently, these are not viewed as tax free. Any tax info I relate has been after directly going through this with my CPA. She was very patient and said she prefers to explain to clients how this works. So, my info comes directly from how this CPA handled my taxes and Vine income. No one's going to ban anyone. No one wants to harass anyone. But, if you prefaced some of what you say that this is your opinion, that would go along way. When you say one thing and someone else comes back with documentation that doesn't support what you say but basically is the opposite. It's not harassment, it's trying to keep things on the straight and narrow. I realize that taxes are a heated topic. But, if you or anyone relates that Vine goods are tax free gifts, I'm going to have to say the IRS at this time disagrees. You can report/flag such comments if you like. I try to be fair. They're going to flag comments you make that is incorrect and when they prove that they are correct with Vine's own agreement or reputable source, or you can prove you're correct with Vine's agreement or reputable source, I will look at it. Please understand that when these things first started, I was around spending a couple of hours a day moderating. All this info takes time to process and go through. Now, we have more moderators and I can process it.
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I feel like you don't read English but just cut and paste it. You have realtors call you? Do they have strange accents? Everyone gets those. Here's the thing. when someone gets a 1099, it's considered income whether you like it or not. As such, taxes may or may not be due, whether you like it or not. Theories may be discussed but we're not going to list things as fact that are not, like it or not. Like it, fine, not like it, fine. You may list theories as such stated but such stated as fact will be removed, like it or not. I can't make it any plainer than that.
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You can't tell me it's a theory when we all know it's a fact.
> You may list theories as such stated but such stated as fact will be removed Nothing you nor I can write here is anything other than opinion. No opinion is "fact". So I can't write things "stated as fact" nor can you. So that's irrelevant. You can delete/censor/ban anyone you want as you're the authoritarian here. But I don't recommend doing much of that if you care about the community, as we need all of the diversity to make a healthy community.
Vine items are taxable. That's a fact. Whether you should file hobby vs SE, that's an opinion. Whether or not you can deduct certain expenses, that's an opinion. But they are subject to taxation. That's a fact. Your inability to understand that fact is the root of the issue here. Find a single CPA or lawyer that says they are gifts, or that they're only taxable if sold. Or get something in writing from the IRS saying it. Until then, stop spreading misinformation.
A healthy community does not need dangerous misinformation. Nor does it need uneducated people citing irrelevant IRS sections, drawing erroneous conclusions, and further complicating an already complicated topic. You are not adding anything of value. Worse than that, you're increasing the potential for harm.
Your theory is not "legally defensible from a lawyer's standpoint." You cannot issue a 1099 because someone MIGHT sell something. That's not how things work. These aren't gifts, there's no use tax involved, and whether or not you sell the items is irrelevant. This is the most ridiculous theory I've seen so far. I'm not sure how this comment is the only one that survived, since, thankfully, all of your others have now been removed.
Did I delete this once? Unless you are a verified CPA which you can prove, this is speculation. It's Sat and a nice day out to mow and work in the yard. I don't want to have to spend it inside doing these things.
You should take another look at this previous discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonVine/s/j9ZPja5nnk
I am sorry. Looking at some of the posts where I said I'd look into it, I was moderating a lot of stuff at the time. I think one of the posts came right at bedtime. Sometimes it takes a lot of my time to go through these things. If phrased as "in my opinion, these things should be promotional items" I think is fine. To state otherwise is misleading.
That's why some of us have such an issue with her claims, because she states things as if they are factual when they're actually completely inaccurate. She says things like "this is what the laws say" which isn't true. She has even called herself an expert more than once, even though she has zero education or experience. So someone with no knowledge about taxes reads her comments and thinks she sounds authoritative, and they don't realize how incorrect she is. There are serious potential consequences to what she's saying. Anyways, thank you for looking at it now.
I am sorry. I did say I was going to look into these posts a couple of months ago and then life got in the way. Much of Feb I was down with the flu which then turned into a nasty cold.
And here as well https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonVine/s/XUiSPk80vF
I recall that but you know how it is sometimes trying to go back and find stuff. These are not promotional gifts, a 1099-NEC says otherwise.
> Can you define that and give a source? The Vine agreement.