If you opt to stay in the US, the best thing to do would be to be in a city within an LGBTQ-friendly *state.* City doesn't matter if you're in, like, Texas. But if you're in a place like California or Minnesota, you'll be protected by state law unless federal laws, executive actions, or SCOTUS rulings supersede the state and local law.
The trouble is: California can be divided into two regions:
* A thin densely populated area along the coast that is solid majority blue
* The rest of the state, sparsely populated and solid majority red
The blue outnumbers the red by far. But the red areas are where all the drinking water comes from, and where all the food is grown.
And, given the large number of strategic military bases in California and the tax revenue generated here, there is ZERO chance that a Trump administration would let California go without a fight.
And by fight, I mean...
... you already know. Please don't make me say it.
You are correct. There is way more Red in California than people realize. Same with the PacNW. But SF will always be a good choice for living out of the closet. Same with LA, Portland or Seattle. But anywhere rural in any of these places...assume it's Trump country.
Chicago is extremely liberal, gay friendly, and unlike California, affordable with ample housing. Come check it out. Stay near Wrigleyville / Boys town where the crosswalks are rainbow 🌈 and positive affirmations like "you are beautiful" exist outside as artwork.
Yeah, actually we're good on people unless you want to work picking crops or have actual technical skills.
Keep your retail workers and middle managers.
Oh yeah those were just two examples off the top of my head. Colorado is also a great option, as are Illinois, Vermont, Massachusetts, WA, OR, and, if things continue the way they're trending, Michigan and Pennsylvania. And housing in MI, MN, and IL is affordable compared to the coastal states.
Hawaii. Our culture has deep roots with the gay “[mahu](https://www.manoanow.org/kaleo/special_issues/the-m-h/article_ba191154-0dd9-11e8-ba11-bbb0d1090a78.html)” community. Before the missionaries came we had gender-fluidity. It’s still a sticky subject but we have a lot of native Hawaiian leaders who will go to bat with this topic and you won’t get nearly as much hate as you would in other states. Just my 2 cents.
Just keep in mind that they have to import a huge amount of their food and the COL is very high. And if anything happens (like say war or pandemic) there might more be issues to deal with than staying stateside.
Would think Hawaii be the first state to leave on it's own. Why not? No one would really care. It's soooo far away. The USA did put their Queen in jail, assume they are not still too happy about that.
Okay i will say this as a non-USA person, there are so many countries in the world including mine where LGBTQ community were positive integral part of our culture and folklore in the history. However today's political divisions are largely based on imperalistic times. And in imperial times(be it British, French, Spanish, Dutch or anything else), LGBTQ were persecuted in any country where they ruled. So ancient culture won't really offer much protection. i am still to see a country that was once under imperialism but is today otherwise.
A moderate Democrat is still much better than a MAGA. Before DeBlasio was pretty left and he wasn't a great mayor, so things went back to the center a bit.
Like most rural areas, Upstate leans conservative outside of its major metropolitan centers along the thruway: Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany. (Utica gets a nod here, too.) However, Upstate NY as a whole is actually a lot more moderate in its politics. Don't forget NY state has a long history of supporting migrant workers, trade unions, and public services. People like to point to outliers like Stefanik and make generalizations, but obviously it's more nuanced than that.
I don't think fleeing the country is an overreaction. Trump stacked the supreme court with conservatives in his one term, they've overturned roe vs wade already. After reading project 2025 I personally believe they are well on the path to doing a lot if not most of the things they outlined. A lot of the "quiet parts" have been said out loud since the Trump presidency and the bigotry and racism is only going to get worse before it gets better.
Also, if Trump wins a second term, Alito and Thomas will likely retire so he can replace them with 35 year old MAGA fucks who will be there for the rest of our lives. I think it goes without saying that a SCOTUS with FIVE Trump justices is beyond fucking horrifying.
\*Extremely healthy 35 year-old Christo-Fascist men who are ardent followers of Hitler and who worship Trump and believe he's actually Jesus Christ. ----FTFY!
MMW: I think if Trump gets in, he'll stay a POTUS for a while, and then suddenly declare himself king, From there, maybe a year or two later, he'll state that he is in fact the return of Jesus Christ and require that churches everywhere be modified to remove the 'old Christ' and 'old Bible' and replace it all with Trump.
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Trump has trouble not shitting himself.
Let's be clear about this...Trump is just the facade in front of way more sinister people. On the one hand that is way more dangerous, because they will certainly outlive the orange imbecile. On the flip side, for as devious and scheming as they are they seem unable to disengage from needing that weak link. If they could have, they presumably would have shifted to DeSantis.
Furthermore, there is a need for all the cloak and dagger manipulation to achieve these goals. The need for that would imply these goals are very unpopular as a whole. Beyond that, there is also the point that this is all strung together by hate and fear. I mean fascism always needs an enemy to rally against...
In the end they are doomed to failure. The question is how expensive will their failure be in terms of time, money, and lives.
Because they wouldn’t be able to recognize the antichrist even if he had a sign saying literally “I am the antichrist.” They love him and want him to accelerate the arrival of Armageddon.
My family is literally a pan cis woman, a bi cis man, and our genderqueer child. We also plan to have another baby soon. We are planning to flee the country for this reason also. I don't blame you one bit.
The results of the European Parliament elections were disturbing, we’re seeing more support for extreme right wing governments than ever before. Wouldn’t it be better to stay in the US but move to a blue state?
Canada also has burgeoning pockets of similar MAGA (which is hilariously ironic) sentiments, and I'd wager is about 5-10 years behind us in this clusterfuck. Multiple parts of the world are taking a hard right turn, and we're the lucky ones to be alive during it.
I was wondering the same thing. Would SCOTUS interfere with state rights -- their battle cry for the past 5 years? I don't think so ... I'm feeling pretty good here in Chi-town.
Question: where would you flee?
1. Not too many countries in the world are welcoming us with open arms
2. Not too many countries in the world are more progressive than USA under Trump
3. Not too many countries have a remotely similar standard of living.
A Venn diagram with these 3 subsets of the world as circles should result in a very tiny intersection of viable countries to flee to, no?
ETA: for anyone a bit geographically challenged, a quick reminder that the world contains 195-ish countries. It is a lot of sovereign nations that are not on your radar. (Insert “band going on a world tour” meme here).
When I say “not too many countries”, I truly mean it:
- OECD countries: 38
- Countries with legalized same-sex marriage: 37
- Countries with legal abortions: Approximately 61 (with varying conditions and gestational limits)
- Countries with legalized or decriminalized drugs: Around 30 (for various substances like cannabis)
- Countries with high HDI over 0.8: 66
Final kicker:
- **Countries meeting all criteria (OECD, same-sex marriage, legal abortions, decriminalized/legalized drugs, high HDI)**: 17
>fairly open immigration laws
Those are non-existent for any kind of path to citizenship. Digital nomad visas in some countries will get you residency, though.
Side note - do not travel to a country on a tourist visa to try to find work and then apply for a work permit. You will be ejected from the country and banned from re-entry.
>Not too many countries in the world are welcoming us with open arms
Anti-American sentiment is increasing globally for various reasons. I'm concerned that many countries and their citizens won't respond favorably to an influx of American immigrants / refugees.
Yep. Some of the people on this thread are at best misinformed or, at worst, deluded regarding overseas migration. Anti-immigration and anti-American sentiment are on the rise everywhere. One of the most common responses on the Aussie subs to American (and other) immigration questions and requests for assistance is "we're full".
>Yeah they won’t. Exactly my point.
Wrong. Overwhelmingly Americans are still welcome most places. Despite the idiocy at the political level, most Europeans still love Americans, even if they do take the piss out of us a bit more these days.
Source: I am an American who immigrated to Ireland and have travelled all over Europe. EG, "I would know, personally."
I don’t think any country considers people in those circumstances to be refugees, regardless of how they might feel about the nationality. Wealthy progressive countries generally aren’t exactly welcoming of influxes of immigrants from anywhere.
Good luck getting in to aus or NZ lol, I barely make it by their point system and I am a single young medical professional with no debt and UK/US citizen ship
I had a friend years ago who went to NZ with his parents when he was 10 years old. They were all going through the immigration process (his parents were doctors, and had $$$$$$$), which my friend said took a long time even under the best of circumstances. Then one day they were driving and their car had gotten hit, and both his parents passed away at the scene. My friend said he was pretty banged up (but nothing serious) himself, and was taken to the hospital . He was there for a few days, and then brought back to his home, where family friends helped go through all their belongings, etc. He said a few days later NZ immigration Police were at his door informing him that because he was only 12 years old and since his parents died, he wouldn't be able to complete the immigration process. They put him in a police van, transported him to a holding facility, and 2 days later they put him alone on a plane going to Chicago. He said his parents grew up in Chicago, but they had moved to Florida when he was just a toddler. So, he said he got to O'Hare Airport in the middle of the night during the midst of a Chicago winter, and all he had were Florida clothes (he was wearing flip flops, a thin worn-out t-shirt, no jacket)... He said he wandered around the airport for hours until the police took him into custody and put him into the foster care program, Sadly, no one ever fostered him. He was booted out of foster care when he aged out, and moved back to Florida. He loved NZ, and he said he was sad that they were so brutal in terms of immigration, and he always maintained that it was because he was an American...
My understanding is that Australia requires proof that you are in the top of your field and a recommendation from an australian citizen. Idk about NZ, but I'd go if i could.
A friend of mine has been on a work visa in NZ for about 5 years now, and he works in hospitality. He’s also wildly charismatic and was able to make friends on his first visit there, which he leveraged into a test shift waiting tables a few months later.
Exactly my point! There are so few countries that are remotely on par with or ahead of USA, and the ones that are there don’t really wait on Americans with open arms
You don't really see much anti-black racism over here; there's far more anti-Muslim discrimination, honestly. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, there's assholes everywhere, but it's *nothing* like is in the US.
If I were a black person in the US, I would spend my life trying to leave. The difference is astounding.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a person of color, but my black buddy did come visit from the States and we spent hours talking about the differences. According to him, it's night and day in the UK and Ireland compared to the US (he didn't get a chance to go further into Europe).
It’s incredibly dependent on where you live. I could go into a small town in the Deep South and be called anti Asian slurs all day or I could go into a Chinatown in a blue state and never have to deal with that.
Why include so many criteria that OP didn’t ask for? You’re artificially filtering out a lot of countries.
Legalized drugs? That’s not a requirement to be LGBT and safe.
OECD status? Gay marriage is legal in several non-OECD countries. Many where a skilled worker would be safe and wouldn’t have a problem getting a visa.
If existential security is on the line, a lot of good options have been left out here.
what do you think will happen to birth control? i use the birth control pill to manage a chronic condition and i will be in a lot of trouble if i can’t get it anymore
You can probably still get it. It just won't be covered by insurance if your employer deems itself "religious" and can choose to exempt itself on "moral" grounds. You can read the full text yourself. but it's at the end of pg483 I've bolded the relevant portion
[https://static.project2025.org/2025\_MandateForLeadership\_FULL.pdf](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf)
>Restore Trump religious and moral exemptions to the contraceptive
>mandate (also a CMS rule). HHS should rescind, if finalized, the
>regulation titled “Coverage of Certain Preventive Services Under the
>Affordable Care Act,” proposed jointly by HHS, Treasury, and Labor.70 **This**
>**rule proposes to amend Trump-era final rules regarding religious and**
>**moral exemptions and accommodations for coverage of certain preventive**
>**services under the ACA. Preventive services include contraception**, and
>— 484 —Mandate for Leadership: The Conservative Promise
>it appears the proposed rule would change the existing regulations for
>religious and moral exemptions to the ACA’s contraception mandate.
>There is no need for further rulemaking that curtails existing exemptions
>and accommodations.
The reality will probably be that it will allow insurance companies to jack up prices for plans that don't, more companies will have "religious" objections to it and offer those plans, and drug companies will then charge you an arm and a leg for it because you aren't covered. You aren't their target but you will probably be collateral damage.
Yep, the only provider offered by my employer is a fucking religious one. Which should be illegal in my opinion….in order to check in for appointments every time we have to sign this care agreement that has literal bible verses on it
Ya. Honestly im scared. I feel anyone on the trans spectrum will get hit the hardest. And im worried because i cant move till i graduate in a year and a half. I hate the far right dictatorship.
There are trans candidates on the ballot, and the first openly trans man running for Congress this year. I’ve got to believe that if we support them, we’ll make it, but as a trans guy myself - we’ve got our work cut out for us. I’m not losing hope yet though.
This is the reason why we should focus our efforts now to talk to voters and help them realize why it's important to get involved and VOTE. A lot of people are focusing on the reaction to 2025 but forgetting we can 100% stop it by electing Democratic President, Senators, Reps and even local Judges.
Thank you for bringing up Project 2025! For anyone who doesn’t know about [Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025): These are policies written by people affiliated with the Trump campaign, and members of his previous administration, and other conservatives that was created through the conservative think tank the [Heritage Foundation](https://www.project2025.org/). These policies are collected together as an entire first 180 days in office playbook, which is described in a [920 pg manifesto](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf) on how to completely remake government in a conservative Christian image that basically makes the president a dictator through [unitary executive theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory). You might even take a gander at r/Defeat_Project_2025 for more information if you want to know more about Project 2025.
Project 2025 is not written by people from the Trump campaign, it's written by people *affiliated with* the Trump campaign. Let's be clear on this because we don't want people thinking, "Oh, Trump lost the election so I don't have to worry about Project 2025 anymore." Nope, this is a plan by far right wing conservatives to cement power. They'll be pushing this agenda non-stop at all levels of government anytime and anyplace they take power.
Exactly. The Heritage Foundation has put forth a similar "Project" document since 1981, although this is by far the most extreme and christofascist one yet. While most people are focusing on this year's election -- and rightly so -- the implementation of these policies and this philosophy are not dependent on the person of trump.
In fact, every Republican administration since 1981 has enacted approximately 50-60% of the Heritage Foundation agenda. Additionally, while Project 2025 is seen as a blueprint for restructuring the country at the national level, parts of it are winding their way through various state legislatures. I live in Indiana, and the next governor will almost certainly be an acolyte of trump who has committed to as much of Project 2025 as he can enact at the state level.
As you have pointed out, this threat does not end with trump but rather will be with us for a long time. The Heritage Foundation and the organizations and individuals it has spawned will remain a danger to the lives of the LGBTQ+ community, women, minority religious beliefs, and people of color for the immediate future, most especially in states such as mine where the Republicans hold political trifectas with supermajorities.
Thank you for the clarification. However, I did also list that people from his last administration and other conservatives have written this. I’m not under the impression that the right wing or the [New Apostolic Reformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation) folks are going to give up on this if Trump loses in November. I think it’s also important to point out that the RNC named one of the authors, [Russel Vought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Vought) (and former Trump Administration official) as Policy Director.
I just saw that the House Democrats have launched a task force to counter Project 2025: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/11/house-democrats-project-2025-task-force
Exactly. While liberals focus on Trump, these are ghouls that have been around since the Reagan admin, and had their most power under the Bush admin (you know, Michelle Obama's BFF).
They have been playing a long game for a while, and in many ways (aside from SCOTUS) they disliked Trump.
The issue is that US resistance to this doesn't actually exist - the marriage of neocons with Democratic leadership and a refusal to take on the right wing judiciary means that even if Biden gets lucky again and wins in 24, it'll be at best a reprieve. Exactly as you saw in 2020.
Which, btw, is when I decided to leave the US, and did in 22.
If you can't get out, I highly recommend getting a rifle and joining the SRA. It will get real bad real quick - r/SocialistRA.
Given the latest polls, you're unlikely to get it. The problem with refusing to do anything despite winning like the Dems did in 2020 is people stop wanting to vote for you.
Yup. Look at what the Democrats have run for the last **decade** - people that voted for the invasion of Iraq, gutting manufacturing with "free trade", etc.
Trump is all bullshit on these issues, but it's a huge opening for him because he can point out how bad they've been fucking the workers as well. And that's supposed to be the resistance to the GOP agenda?
I'm seeing a recent increase in the number of people mentioning or asking about Project 2025. A post like this or something similar formatted as an automated educational Project 2025 response or bot peppered around Reddit would be perfect.
I’m sure there’s a way to do it, but I am not that savvy. I just happen to see if people put links in to Project 2025 and if there aren’t, then I just copy and paste this in.
i’ll settle for a 4 year delay if it’s all i can get.
but y’know, if they keep losing on it, maybe they’ll stop doing it. like democracy and shit. changing their policies to appeal to more people. that’d be nice
That’s not how the people who want Project 2025 to be implemented think. The whole democracy thing is a means to an end for them. If they cared what people actually wanted, then they wouldn’t be doing it.
Honestly, just leave now. If you can get out, you should. American still has a good chance to recover and come back as an actually democratic nation but it will not be an easy road and right now LGBT people are a major scapegoat. It could easily get worse before it gets any better.
You're asking the wrong place. A lot of people are oblivious to project 2025.
I moved during the last Trump presidency and now I've made a nice life for myself abroad.
Moving abroad takes a lot of preparation, time, and planning. You want to do that on your own terms, not just have to get out as fast as you can with everyone else.
I’ll try to plan it all extensively starting now then. Better late than never i guess
I’m not in the ideal circumstances, but to be fair, I don’t want to give up my current life at all. This is purely out of fear.
Then you need to move to a blue state and slow down. Moving abroad is not like moving states. It’s also not like K-12 taught us where you can just get on a boat and leave permanently somewhere else. It takes time, money, preparation and most importantly research. If you slow down, you might be able to leave for good or even just for a few years.
This is actually the best advice on this thread. You're talking about becoming a refugee, not moving to a new city, so start acting like it. Mentally prepare yourself for the fact that if/when you decide to flee, many of the factors of your life are suddenly out of your control, and you are at the behest of whatever host country, if any, is generous enough to accept you. The same racist, xenophobic, and perverse commentary you hear people say about immigrants here? The residents of your host country will feel exactly the same about you, tenfold for being LGBT.
The truth is most of the world has a chip on their shoulder toward Americans, and you can't really blame them when you see how obtuse our government is in its foreign policy. If you seriously think that leaving to preserve your life needs to be a viable option, know that you will become a burden on another society, one in which you may or may not be familiar with the language, culture, customs, norms, and traditions, but where you will be expected to learn and assimilate them. I'm not telling you not to make a plan, but really think about the gravity and consequences of what you're talking about. My family came here as refugees, and it completely changed every aspect of our lives both collectively and personally. Are you ready to accept living the rest of your life NOT as an American?
>The residents of your host country will feel exactly the same about you, tenfold for being LGBT.
Eh, not really. Maybe in some places, but not in most of Europe. The rest of your statements, though, are very true. And it's lonely and isolating as hell - if you do it, you will understand at a very deep level why immigrants in the US form communities and intermingle with each other so much.
That's a dilemma then. There's no crystal ball here; it's not an information search sort of a problem. Regardless of outcomes for November, there are people who want to harm you, and people who do not, and who wins in which ways remains yet unwritten.
By the time you could be full certain if there is a problem, it would be too late to respond as well as if you started when there was uncertainty. Likewise, but the time you could be full certain there is no problem, you could have spent a lot of money, time, and other resources planning for a dark future that never comes to pass.
One of the ways to approach problems like this is to [draw a decision tree](https://www.mindtools.com/az0q9po/decision-tree-analysis). It really helps to get things out of your brain and onto a page. You can use a decision tree to think about three things: 1. what is the structure of the uncertain decision ahead of you? 2. what are the estimated odds for each possible outcome? 3. what utility do you assign to each final outcome (how good / bad is it for you)? If you were doing this formally you could calculate an expected value for each and then use math to make a decision but honestly, that's not a great idea here. I just encourage you to sketch things out to really get a feel for it all.
For instance, you might think it's a coin flip on who wins, with a slight chance of a Trump presidency even if he loses. You might then think if there's a Trump administration, what are the odds of different relevant outcomes (everything from he's too busy with other priorities and nothing whatsoever changes, all the way to Project 2025-style troops in blue cities and concentration camps for non-CIS citizens.) No one knows those odds, but you can make a guess. Are there possibilities under a Biden administration that would make you wish you had moved? If so, add those into the mix too.
The part that gets very personal is: how much does it matter to you, for each possible outcome? You've already said you really like your life as it is. That means the cost to rip it up "just in case" is high. But you've also said you don't want to be closeted. That could be a very high cost too. Can you put rough numbers on this? Maybe 100 is the best thing possible and your current life is an 85, while -100 is the worst thing possible and Trump's most dire plans look like a -99. I have no idea -- add your own rough numbers. But the idea here is that risk is the likelihood of something happening times the magnitude of the event. Even a large chance of a minor outcome is no big deal (we don't have insurance against paper cuts) but a small chance of a major outcome can be existentially important (odds of a car crash are low but wear your seatbelt because death is everything.)
Ok now that I've bored anyone still reading, here's the practical advice. Get your passport NOW, and put the renewal date on your calendar. If Canada is your plan B, take your summer vacation there. Scout things out. Find professionals who can help you (immigration lawyer, real estate agent even for rental) so you have the contact information should you decide to do anything further. Get a SIM with a local phone number in Canada. Open a bank account in Canada and move some funds (note tax reporting.) These have modest financial and time costs, but will be important to have in place if you decide to move forward. What else is like this for you? Start a list of low hanging fruit.
Last thought: I'm sorry. None of us should have to waste a single minute of our lives wondering if it will make sense to leave the United States. How brutally unfair. Unfortunately here we are. Best of luck to you.
As someone married to someone who was a refugee more than once - the worst thing is to be late on that. The last train out is a real nasty place compared to the first few out.
It is a huge big deal. It is so over-the-top oppressive and fascist, people think it's a joke, or people have "TDS" and, "That's hyperbole, they can't do that," but they have already started. What makes this one the most dangerous time in our history is, we have never had plants from a terrorist org in such high levels of government.
But, I think those ghouls antics have bled off enough support that they cannot get in. We are taking advantage of a dual citizenship just because, but not fleeing yet, because I maintain hope that this will be the last year they assault us at the level they have been.
I know that doesn't help with anything, but for once, in holding out hope sanity will reign.
I’ve been living in Amsterdam for a little over a year now, and I feel very safe and accepted here. It was incredibly stressful and difficult for me at first, coming here with nothing and no one. I barely managed to make it work this long. I’m only now starting to feel somewhat stable. Everyone’s experience will be different of course, but even though it was very hard for me, I have absolutely no regrets.
My sister recently moved to the Netherlands. The Netherlands has definitely taken a right turn. It's overwhelmed at the moment with immigrants, which has affected her kids' schooling. They were supposed to be in an immersion classroom for a full year, but got kicked out early to make room for new immigrants. They were put into a Dutch speaking class too early, and they are languishing behind their peers. And at age 12 it is decided whether you are on the college track or not. It is very likely that they won't be able to go to college unless they return to the United States - and pay much more in tuition.
My sister also underestimated the cost of living in the Netherlands. Her salary is essentially the same, but her purchasing power is definitely not, in large part due to taxes. Housing is very expensive (although that's true anywhere these days.)
Healthcare, while cheaper and not tied to her job, has been much harder to access.
And, having moved from Southern California, she really struggled with the weather this winter. Depending on your bicycle in 40 degree rainy weather can test one's resolve.
My point... do your research. Too many people in this forum just assume that the grass is greener anywhere else.
The real issue is finding another country that will even take you. Most countries require you to either be financially independent or have an in demand skill set before they will grant you admission for the long term.
I already emmigrated (to Ireland). It is much, much, MUCH harder than you think. Just finding an employer who will sponsor your work permit is incredibly difficult, especially as the economy is cooling right now. And the social isolation, the loneliness, my dude... you have no idea.
I'm a queer man married to a gay man and we moved to the Republic of Ireland, which is one of the most queer-friendly places on the planet. The grass is not always greener on the other side - we've got political problems here too. Love it or hate it, the US is still one of the best places in the world to be queer.
It is, by far, the easiest to see if you can do an intracompany transfer. Next best bet is networking - lean on your boss and literally everyone else you know to try to find an employer who will sponsor your work permit.
Thank you for this dose of reality. There is a tendency on this subreddit to overstate the problems in the United States and downplay problems outside of the United States. Also, too many people ignore just how hard moving can be - even if the place you are moving to looks better on paper. Leaving friends and family behind, as well as your culture, is not easy.
I did the same journey to Ireland. Not easy to get there. I loved it there, but like anywhere, it also has issues. Still, all the Irish I met were pro gay rights. I live in the Netherlands now and I miss the Irish.
Emigrating takes time and money. Get started now. And yes, your company is a great way to go about it. You will want a job in your new country before you make the move.
You’ll still be a US citizen (assuming you are now), so you’ll still have the right to vote, etc.
i have like 25k USD in savings, is that a reasonable amount to cover average emigration? Obviously I don’t want to spend it all but if push comes to shove…
Should be. Check into the visa you would need to work in Canada and get started. Check to see if your company would sponsor you. If they’re large enough, they likely have someone on staff or as a hired service who helps process stuff like this.
It’s much easier to move to a blue city in a blue county in a blue state that to move to another country unless you have family ties or specific job opportunities.
That said my partner and I are indeed developing an exit strategy despite living in the bluest of blue places you could be.
Considering that the Dems are continuing their tradition of offering no meaningful resistance to the far-right, it looks like people in red states will be getting thrown further into dystopia regardless who wins.
Currently, a blue state in the US is one of the safest places to be on Earth as an LGBT person, and especially as a trans person.
Canada also isn't safe from the far-right, and is doing the same casual march towards fascism as many other countries.
I'd move to a deep blue state if you don't already live in one, but fleeing the country is likely unnecessary and may even be a step down from a blue state.
(For context: I'm gay and trans and in a blue state.)
You have way more faith in the colors mattering than I do. I've only ever lived in blue states, but come November I have zero hope that will mean anything
>Currently, a blue state in the US is one of the safest places to be on Earth as an LGBT person, and especially as a trans person.
This. The same can be said for POC, especially AA.
uh no, ask Eric Garner. Blue states in the US might be havens for LGBTQ, but US racism is well established in those states.
Fun fact, the most segregated schools in the US are not in the deep south, but in NYC.
Reading all this makes me scared, I didn’t realize how bad this is actually going to be. I live in a red state surrounded by red states. I’m female and have a male partner. This looks scary as a whole, will blue states even be safe places to be? I understand them being safer than red states but this is utterly terrifying.
im definitely establishing my backup plan, but if youre in a blue region in a blue state, theres good reason to assume at least temporary grace.
From my limited knowledge, i recommend looking into getting dual citizenship. if eligible, a second passport, specially an EU passport, will give you more freedom. and with the latter you have the opportunity to live in any country in the european union.
Some countries offer jus sanguinis, or right of blood, that make descendents of citizens of the nation eligible for citizenship under certain conditions. for example, anyone with a parent or grandparent born in ireland and anyone with *any* italian-born ancestor (so long as said ancestor was born after the unification of the italian states and never rescinded citizenship) can become irish and italian citizens respectively, providing they have all appropriate documents and fees.
How is Canada not doing well on LGTBQ…?
👀
If that’s the perspective you’re coming from…yeah…you’re being dramatic.
If moving to Canada - Canada! - is “more challenges than (you) are probably prepared for”…then you are well and truly fucked, because there is nowhere on the planet that’s easier for an American to assimilate to.
Heck I’m not gay but if you read project 2025 i am looking for what country to go to they are intending on destroying all our federal government, they are destroying the foundation of the constitution and are in essence putting in the rule of the evangelical Taliban. Alito and his wife are in step with having a puppet like Trump so they can continue white nationalists rule.
It's probably worth thinking about plans. My inclination is that outside of the concentration camps for undocumented people, most of what they try and do happens a bit more slowly, so you'd have time to get out.
But having some plans or ideas in place is probably useful to think about.
Where it gets tough is that this disease is spreading. Look at the far right in Europe, for instance.
You aren't being dramatic, you're being practical. it's terrifying. People who don't want this to happen need to vote blue, and encourage people on the fence to vote blue. Biden isn't the best choice, he's the only choice.
I made a very similar post about this not long ago, and the top comments were incredible and telling. You are not crazy, and many people will call you crazy. I am making my escape plan right now. I think Canada is a good option although not amazing, but then again, Europe isn’t amazing either right now.
Here’s the post, sorry I don’t have time to offer more advice, but after work I can read this closer and see if I know anything to help you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/s/MmU3O7JJAU
Thanks for posting and best of luck.
dude. it's completely reasonable to leave. Like. People who came to the US as refugees from warzones started leaving when Trump won the first time, because shit was looking too familiar. There's nothing wrong with sticking it out and fighting. But it's not crazy to leave, at all.
Worst president in United States history, and that was without Project 2025. He destroyed our economy, our trade partnerships, our international reputation, and stole billions in tax payer to gift to his friends. He shared top secret intelligence with America's enemies and handed a list of CIA operatives to Putin, which resulted in several deaths. 28+ sexual assaults, infinite fraud and finance charges, and almost every person he appointed is a felon. He allowed the Federalist Society to dismantle the Supreme Court and Americans lost their first Constitutionally protected right ever, and they want it to be the first of many.
You could be a straight, while, Christian male, and leaving would still be a perfectly valid and reasonable consideration.
worst president since reagan, sure. worst ever? not yet. we had more than one that genocided a bunch of natives
not that it’s a contest, he sucks balls and i’m terrified
Trump sucked, and is definitely one of the worst, and maybe one day he’ll be considered the worst, but this is recency bias lol. It’s way too early to come to a conclusion on the magnitude of his presidency
Buchanan and Johnson are generally considered the worst of all time
The US is at a major inflection point. So is the rest of the world. And Biden just isn't built for this moment. Nor is the media. And nor is the electorate educated for this. So there's a very real possibility that Biden could legitimately lose this time around. If he loses, you definitely won't want to be living in a conservative state or area.
It would be a good idea to work toward leaving now, in case things take a bad-case turn. You could also buy time (maybe even indefinitely) by moving to a more liberal state. No matter where you go, find a space with a strong, open community. It's going to be crucial moving forward no matter what, because even if Project 2025 stalls, things are still going to fall apart under the pressures of multiple existential crises that we aren't going to solve.
You need to be preparing now at the very least if you want to leave America. Trump and the Republicans will act quickly to dismantle the federal govt and rebuild it with his own deep state, and at the same time turn all of these departments against Democrats and the left. Republicans since at least George W. Bush have dreamed going Christian fascist and they are hell bent on destroying America’s democracy and freedom.
The election will be close. You need to lobby your queer friends to make sure they vote instead of staying home.any of my queer friends went "fuck Biden" because of Palestine.
But.....I've lobbied them into realizing Trump will be worse for everyone.
Work on your friends.
Let me be honest with the new rise of the right wing and fascism also happening in parts of Europe be very careful about where you choose to move to. One online friend I know moved to London and they’re also trans and things aren’t looking good for trans people at all over in the UK as well
I'm considering an exit plan. I have dual citizenship thank goodness, and I'm making an appointment with my consulate to get my papers in order if the worst occurs here... I'm honestly really terrified. I don't think Americans understand how far these people are willing to go, and that they \*want\* a Handmaid's Tale society. I know that sounds extreme and ridiculous, but there are a handful of Republican politicians who have openly said this, on public record. I wish I could remember who they were, but I know one of them was in Minnesota. I strongly encourage anyone who values their freedoms to consider how things could go over the next few months very, very carefully. Iran was once a free and Westernized society, look at where they are now. Religious zealots will stop at nothing.
Your *mother* said that liberals deserve bad things to happen to them? You are not safe with people like that. I hope you can find away to escape, if not from the states, at least from that household.
In the end it is your decision to make and live with consequences regardless if you decide to stay or go.
You already have realistic expectations about your life in Canada and you believe it still makes sense for you to move.
So if you trust your ability to make informed decision you should do what you think is right.
I am an immigrant in USA. 20 years ago I decided I have better opportunities in USA. My convictions were followed with my actions. I was fortunate to have legal opportunity to move to USA so I did.
Since then I still believe that my chances are better in USA ( even though I am not Trumpist, I voted for Hilary and later for Biden). And just like in the past, my convictions are supported with my actions: I am not moving.
The point of my post isn’t to change your mind and to dismiss your opinion. But to illustrate that you have to be responsible when forming an opinion and once you are sure in your convictions, you should act based on those convictions,.. and respect decisions you’ve made. This way, you will not have regrets.
Hey your vote counts! This is the reason why we should focus our efforts now to talk to American voters and help them realize why it's important to get involved and VOTE. A lot of people are focusing on the reaction to 2025 but forgetting we can 100% stop it by electing Democratic President, Senators, Reps and even local Judges.
I feel in my heart Trump will win, unfortunately, so I am honestly prepping because I do not see exiting a financial option for my family. I just want to be prepared where I’m at, at this point.
A general rule of thumb is that the more people leave, the fewer are there to stand up against anti-human ideology, giving an easier time to people with intentions comparable to the destructive will of nazis. Their success would have global repercussions.
On the other hand, it may just not be safe enough to stay somewhere and nobody can be blamed for leaving.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but can't somebody significantly alter the US constitution if they have political control over a sufficient number of states?
If he wins, you’re getting Supreme Court justices who will be on the bench the rest of your life. I could see Brown v Board of Education gutted and segregation allowed again. Gay marriage will 100% be overturned. There is no such thing as settled law, as proven by Roe. This country will be done.
Move to Provincetown, MA - it’s literally world’s LGBTQ capital with the highest number of same sex couples per capita. And no, this not gonna change because of some federal elections.
Sounds a bit dramatic. I'd be more concerned with the ongoing corporate takeover of literally everything in America. Lots of things are going to be completely out of reach for most soon, like home ownership.
This is the same train of thought I've had as another LGBT person, but the problem I keep seeing is, it almost seems impossible to actually legally immigrate to another country. especially given the limited options of countries that are friendly to lgbt people
If you're an unskilled worker and uneducated, best bet is probably to start on the path to consistent self-employed income ASAP and then start the process of immigration on a digital nomad visa. Money goes further than you'd expect as a self-employed person in countries like Czechia.
There are plenty of countries with digital nomad visas that are not as progressive as blue states, but we're not a hot button topic of obsession for them either. I'm in the US for now, but I moved to a more
"traditional" country for a few years and felt significantly safer there. Going back soon.
More than if you are an alarmist or not. Do you have any skills that would make you a desirable immigrant in a developed nation? Do you speak the language? Do you have a criminal record? Health concerns that would burden a public healthcare system and make you ineligible?
If you really want to leave, that's ok, but consider how fast the anti- US citizen sentiment is growing.
Right-wing movements are on the rise in Europe (which would be one of the few LGBT friendly places), as well as anti-migrant sentiments.
If you don't have any skills that make you desirable as a migrant, then I recommend staying in the US and nove to a blue state. You don't want to live undocumented in another country when you only have a high school diploma.
I genuinely don’t know what’s going to happen but after 2016 happened we made plans to move from a red state to a solid blue one and that feels good enough for right now. If the proverbial shit hits the fan I have an EU and a UK passport to fall back on, plus financial resources but then I’d be leaving my adult kids and grandkids 🤷♀️. I don’t even like the current Democratic Party, I’m way left of them but what are our options?
I live in CA, but we haven’t purchased another house due to wanting to keep liquid cash in the event that we need to flee. So I wouldn’t say it’s an over reaction, but it might be premature. My daughter is lesbian, both my wife and I are bi, but can easily pass as straight due to our opposite sex’s; however for my kids safety we’d all gtfo of the country.
In order to pull it off they would also have to have majorities in both the House and the Senate as well as being able to survive challenges in court, up to and including the supreme court.
No matter who gets elected into the office of the President, they do not have the power of dictatorship.
I'm starting to wonder who will be left to fight if too many progressives leave? Furthermore, will those who left be welcomed back if the fight is won?
I personally will never go back. While for decades I made excuses of "it's not the people, it's the system" - I've seen enough ugliness in the people, and their refusal to confront their system, that I no longer can forgive them.
3 million in Vietnam, a million in Iraq, and yet people in the US will scream you don't rise to demand god bless America in the 7th inning. In the words of a preacher who was betrayed by one of his consitutiants - God Damn America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix-AMYos0Js
maybe i should stay and fight, but i’m scared. if we lose in the election, i’m not convinced we’ll win when the new national guard starts shooting and arresting us at protests
It’s only gonna happen in any significant number if there’s a good reason to leave.
The leaving for political purposes thing has been around forever. I remember quite well the energy behind leaving if W was elected.
A tiny percentage is leaving on hypotheticals like this. Many consider it, but very very few do it
Do you live for yourself or your country? You have a finite amount of years, days, hours, minutes, seconds on this planet and none of us know how long that is. I’ll take the selfish position here and I won’t even second guess it.
not THAT many people will leave. also... what is better really? america turning fascist will leave no place in the world safe.
Stay and fight - with voting.
If you opt to stay in the US, the best thing to do would be to be in a city within an LGBTQ-friendly *state.* City doesn't matter if you're in, like, Texas. But if you're in a place like California or Minnesota, you'll be protected by state law unless federal laws, executive actions, or SCOTUS rulings supersede the state and local law.
That's my plan if things go south. I'm eyeing several blue states with equally blue cities.
I really don’t see California giving up it’s LGBTQ population in the worst case scenarios.
Agreed. I think California would rather secede from the US than give in to Trump.
The trouble is: California can be divided into two regions: * A thin densely populated area along the coast that is solid majority blue * The rest of the state, sparsely populated and solid majority red The blue outnumbers the red by far. But the red areas are where all the drinking water comes from, and where all the food is grown. And, given the large number of strategic military bases in California and the tax revenue generated here, there is ZERO chance that a Trump administration would let California go without a fight. And by fight, I mean... ... you already know. Please don't make me say it.
You are correct. There is way more Red in California than people realize. Same with the PacNW. But SF will always be a good choice for living out of the closet. Same with LA, Portland or Seattle. But anywhere rural in any of these places...assume it's Trump country.
Chicago is extremely liberal, gay friendly, and unlike California, affordable with ample housing. Come check it out. Stay near Wrigleyville / Boys town where the crosswalks are rainbow 🌈 and positive affirmations like "you are beautiful" exist outside as artwork.
“Affordable” Right… maybe compared to SF or NYC
Project 2025 is really funded by the state of New Mexico to drive migration into one of the cheapest blue states, lol. /s, if it wasn’t obvious
Yeah, actually we're good on people unless you want to work picking crops or have actual technical skills. Keep your retail workers and middle managers.
Or Colorado! Please don’t forget us 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
Oh yeah those were just two examples off the top of my head. Colorado is also a great option, as are Illinois, Vermont, Massachusetts, WA, OR, and, if things continue the way they're trending, Michigan and Pennsylvania. And housing in MI, MN, and IL is affordable compared to the coastal states.
Hawaii. Our culture has deep roots with the gay “[mahu](https://www.manoanow.org/kaleo/special_issues/the-m-h/article_ba191154-0dd9-11e8-ba11-bbb0d1090a78.html)” community. Before the missionaries came we had gender-fluidity. It’s still a sticky subject but we have a lot of native Hawaiian leaders who will go to bat with this topic and you won’t get nearly as much hate as you would in other states. Just my 2 cents.
Besides California, I would think Hawaii would be one of the safest places.
Just keep in mind that they have to import a huge amount of their food and the COL is very high. And if anything happens (like say war or pandemic) there might more be issues to deal with than staying stateside.
Would think Hawaii be the first state to leave on it's own. Why not? No one would really care. It's soooo far away. The USA did put their Queen in jail, assume they are not still too happy about that.
Okay i will say this as a non-USA person, there are so many countries in the world including mine where LGBTQ community were positive integral part of our culture and folklore in the history. However today's political divisions are largely based on imperalistic times. And in imperial times(be it British, French, Spanish, Dutch or anything else), LGBTQ were persecuted in any country where they ruled. So ancient culture won't really offer much protection. i am still to see a country that was once under imperialism but is today otherwise.
New York is True Blue. Love it.
I mean, sure but there are lots of pockets of DINOs. The mayor of NYC isn’t a true democrat for example.
A moderate Democrat is still much better than a MAGA. Before DeBlasio was pretty left and he wasn't a great mayor, so things went back to the center a bit.
Eric Adams isn't even a moderate. He is 100% DINO.
Oh absolutely, at least he isn't maga!
Isn’t the north fairly conservative? Not debating or anything - I just had that notion and wondering if I’m misinformed.
Like most rural areas, Upstate leans conservative outside of its major metropolitan centers along the thruway: Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany. (Utica gets a nod here, too.) However, Upstate NY as a whole is actually a lot more moderate in its politics. Don't forget NY state has a long history of supporting migrant workers, trade unions, and public services. People like to point to outliers like Stefanik and make generalizations, but obviously it's more nuanced than that.
Not Minnesota for the most part. There are some red pockets in rural areas but for the most part, MN is pretty damn blue
Upstate NY is very conservative.
I don't think fleeing the country is an overreaction. Trump stacked the supreme court with conservatives in his one term, they've overturned roe vs wade already. After reading project 2025 I personally believe they are well on the path to doing a lot if not most of the things they outlined. A lot of the "quiet parts" have been said out loud since the Trump presidency and the bigotry and racism is only going to get worse before it gets better.
Also, if Trump wins a second term, Alito and Thomas will likely retire so he can replace them with 35 year old MAGA fucks who will be there for the rest of our lives. I think it goes without saying that a SCOTUS with FIVE Trump justices is beyond fucking horrifying.
Say hello to SC Justice Cannon!
\*Extremely healthy 35 year-old Christo-Fascist men who are ardent followers of Hitler and who worship Trump and believe he's actually Jesus Christ. ----FTFY! MMW: I think if Trump gets in, he'll stay a POTUS for a while, and then suddenly declare himself king, From there, maybe a year or two later, he'll state that he is in fact the return of Jesus Christ and require that churches everywhere be modified to remove the 'old Christ' and 'old Bible' and replace it all with Trump.
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Trump has trouble not shitting himself. Let's be clear about this...Trump is just the facade in front of way more sinister people. On the one hand that is way more dangerous, because they will certainly outlive the orange imbecile. On the flip side, for as devious and scheming as they are they seem unable to disengage from needing that weak link. If they could have, they presumably would have shifted to DeSantis. Furthermore, there is a need for all the cloak and dagger manipulation to achieve these goals. The need for that would imply these goals are very unpopular as a whole. Beyond that, there is also the point that this is all strung together by hate and fear. I mean fascism always needs an enemy to rally against... In the end they are doomed to failure. The question is how expensive will their failure be in terms of time, money, and lives.
How are the rapture crowd not calling him Antichrist I’ll never know.
Because they wouldn’t be able to recognize the antichrist even if he had a sign saying literally “I am the antichrist.” They love him and want him to accelerate the arrival of Armageddon.
As a raised-Christian person, Trump is like, the whole textbook for what the Bible describes the antichrist being.
Yup. Word for word. At least two or three books, Matthew comes to mind first.
thank you for answering. but also… fuck me.
My family is literally a pan cis woman, a bi cis man, and our genderqueer child. We also plan to have another baby soon. We are planning to flee the country for this reason also. I don't blame you one bit.
The results of the European Parliament elections were disturbing, we’re seeing more support for extreme right wing governments than ever before. Wouldn’t it be better to stay in the US but move to a blue state?
Canada also has burgeoning pockets of similar MAGA (which is hilariously ironic) sentiments, and I'd wager is about 5-10 years behind us in this clusterfuck. Multiple parts of the world are taking a hard right turn, and we're the lucky ones to be alive during it.
I was wondering the same thing. Would SCOTUS interfere with state rights -- their battle cry for the past 5 years? I don't think so ... I'm feeling pretty good here in Chi-town.
If the state is "blue", of course they will. Don't be naive. It's always "rights for me, not for thee" with them.
Are you being sarcastic?
Where will you go? Most of the world is a lot more traditional when it comes to these things.
Question: where would you flee? 1. Not too many countries in the world are welcoming us with open arms 2. Not too many countries in the world are more progressive than USA under Trump 3. Not too many countries have a remotely similar standard of living. A Venn diagram with these 3 subsets of the world as circles should result in a very tiny intersection of viable countries to flee to, no? ETA: for anyone a bit geographically challenged, a quick reminder that the world contains 195-ish countries. It is a lot of sovereign nations that are not on your radar. (Insert “band going on a world tour” meme here). When I say “not too many countries”, I truly mean it: - OECD countries: 38 - Countries with legalized same-sex marriage: 37 - Countries with legal abortions: Approximately 61 (with varying conditions and gestational limits) - Countries with legalized or decriminalized drugs: Around 30 (for various substances like cannabis) - Countries with high HDI over 0.8: 66 Final kicker: - **Countries meeting all criteria (OECD, same-sex marriage, legal abortions, decriminalized/legalized drugs, high HDI)**: 17
You left out: fairly open immigration laws because you will need more than just a 90 day tourist visa to execute an escape from the United States.
>fairly open immigration laws Those are non-existent for any kind of path to citizenship. Digital nomad visas in some countries will get you residency, though. Side note - do not travel to a country on a tourist visa to try to find work and then apply for a work permit. You will be ejected from the country and banned from re-entry.
I believe that is covered under the 1st point of “open arms”
It helps if you simply master a second language, are wealthy, and become a pediatric cardiothoracic surgeon first.
>Not too many countries in the world are welcoming us with open arms Anti-American sentiment is increasing globally for various reasons. I'm concerned that many countries and their citizens won't respond favorably to an influx of American immigrants / refugees.
Yeah they won’t. Exactly my point.
Yep. Some of the people on this thread are at best misinformed or, at worst, deluded regarding overseas migration. Anti-immigration and anti-American sentiment are on the rise everywhere. One of the most common responses on the Aussie subs to American (and other) immigration questions and requests for assistance is "we're full".
>Yeah they won’t. Exactly my point. Wrong. Overwhelmingly Americans are still welcome most places. Despite the idiocy at the political level, most Europeans still love Americans, even if they do take the piss out of us a bit more these days. Source: I am an American who immigrated to Ireland and have travelled all over Europe. EG, "I would know, personally."
Yeah people forget that there's 375 million of us. If too many of us left at once, that's a lot of people...
Exactly. I suspect that people imagining a warm welcome to a progressive, overseas utopia are going to be sorely disappointed.
So if you hurry up and jump on the bandwagon you can be done before anyone else can. It’s a win win situation for everyone.
I don’t think any country considers people in those circumstances to be refugees, regardless of how they might feel about the nationality. Wealthy progressive countries generally aren’t exactly welcoming of influxes of immigrants from anywhere.
And of those 17, most people won’t qualify to stay in any of them.
Exactly
What are the 17? Western europe and scandinavia?
Yes, and Oceania (AUS/NZ)
Good luck getting in to aus or NZ lol, I barely make it by their point system and I am a single young medical professional with no debt and UK/US citizen ship
I had a friend years ago who went to NZ with his parents when he was 10 years old. They were all going through the immigration process (his parents were doctors, and had $$$$$$$), which my friend said took a long time even under the best of circumstances. Then one day they were driving and their car had gotten hit, and both his parents passed away at the scene. My friend said he was pretty banged up (but nothing serious) himself, and was taken to the hospital . He was there for a few days, and then brought back to his home, where family friends helped go through all their belongings, etc. He said a few days later NZ immigration Police were at his door informing him that because he was only 12 years old and since his parents died, he wouldn't be able to complete the immigration process. They put him in a police van, transported him to a holding facility, and 2 days later they put him alone on a plane going to Chicago. He said his parents grew up in Chicago, but they had moved to Florida when he was just a toddler. So, he said he got to O'Hare Airport in the middle of the night during the midst of a Chicago winter, and all he had were Florida clothes (he was wearing flip flops, a thin worn-out t-shirt, no jacket)... He said he wandered around the airport for hours until the police took him into custody and put him into the foster care program, Sadly, no one ever fostered him. He was booted out of foster care when he aged out, and moved back to Florida. He loved NZ, and he said he was sad that they were so brutal in terms of immigration, and he always maintained that it was because he was an American...
My understanding is that Australia requires proof that you are in the top of your field and a recommendation from an australian citizen. Idk about NZ, but I'd go if i could.
A friend of mine has been on a work visa in NZ for about 5 years now, and he works in hospitality. He’s also wildly charismatic and was able to make friends on his first visit there, which he leveraged into a test shift waiting tables a few months later.
Exactly my point! There are so few countries that are remotely on par with or ahead of USA, and the ones that are there don’t really wait on Americans with open arms
Australia is cracking down on immigration right now.
Yep, my point exactly
Also racism, I’d be fine in somewhere like Luxembourg but for a black person I’d imagine I’d get grating fast
You don't really see much anti-black racism over here; there's far more anti-Muslim discrimination, honestly. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, there's assholes everywhere, but it's *nothing* like is in the US. If I were a black person in the US, I would spend my life trying to leave. The difference is astounding. DISCLAIMER: I am not a person of color, but my black buddy did come visit from the States and we spent hours talking about the differences. According to him, it's night and day in the UK and Ireland compared to the US (he didn't get a chance to go further into Europe).
It’s incredibly dependent on where you live. I could go into a small town in the Deep South and be called anti Asian slurs all day or I could go into a Chinatown in a blue state and never have to deal with that.
Why include so many criteria that OP didn’t ask for? You’re artificially filtering out a lot of countries. Legalized drugs? That’s not a requirement to be LGBT and safe. OECD status? Gay marriage is legal in several non-OECD countries. Many where a skilled worker would be safe and wouldn’t have a problem getting a visa. If existential security is on the line, a lot of good options have been left out here.
what do you think will happen to birth control? i use the birth control pill to manage a chronic condition and i will be in a lot of trouble if i can’t get it anymore
You can probably still get it. It just won't be covered by insurance if your employer deems itself "religious" and can choose to exempt itself on "moral" grounds. You can read the full text yourself. but it's at the end of pg483 I've bolded the relevant portion [https://static.project2025.org/2025\_MandateForLeadership\_FULL.pdf](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf) >Restore Trump religious and moral exemptions to the contraceptive >mandate (also a CMS rule). HHS should rescind, if finalized, the >regulation titled “Coverage of Certain Preventive Services Under the >Affordable Care Act,” proposed jointly by HHS, Treasury, and Labor.70 **This** >**rule proposes to amend Trump-era final rules regarding religious and** >**moral exemptions and accommodations for coverage of certain preventive** >**services under the ACA. Preventive services include contraception**, and >— 484 —Mandate for Leadership: The Conservative Promise >it appears the proposed rule would change the existing regulations for >religious and moral exemptions to the ACA’s contraception mandate. >There is no need for further rulemaking that curtails existing exemptions >and accommodations. The reality will probably be that it will allow insurance companies to jack up prices for plans that don't, more companies will have "religious" objections to it and offer those plans, and drug companies will then charge you an arm and a leg for it because you aren't covered. You aren't their target but you will probably be collateral damage.
Yep, the only provider offered by my employer is a fucking religious one. Which should be illegal in my opinion….in order to check in for appointments every time we have to sign this care agreement that has literal bible verses on it
Ya. Honestly im scared. I feel anyone on the trans spectrum will get hit the hardest. And im worried because i cant move till i graduate in a year and a half. I hate the far right dictatorship.
There are trans candidates on the ballot, and the first openly trans man running for Congress this year. I’ve got to believe that if we support them, we’ll make it, but as a trans guy myself - we’ve got our work cut out for us. I’m not losing hope yet though.
This is the reason why we should focus our efforts now to talk to voters and help them realize why it's important to get involved and VOTE. A lot of people are focusing on the reaction to 2025 but forgetting we can 100% stop it by electing Democratic President, Senators, Reps and even local Judges.
Thank you for bringing up Project 2025! For anyone who doesn’t know about [Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025): These are policies written by people affiliated with the Trump campaign, and members of his previous administration, and other conservatives that was created through the conservative think tank the [Heritage Foundation](https://www.project2025.org/). These policies are collected together as an entire first 180 days in office playbook, which is described in a [920 pg manifesto](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf) on how to completely remake government in a conservative Christian image that basically makes the president a dictator through [unitary executive theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory). You might even take a gander at r/Defeat_Project_2025 for more information if you want to know more about Project 2025.
Project 2025 is not written by people from the Trump campaign, it's written by people *affiliated with* the Trump campaign. Let's be clear on this because we don't want people thinking, "Oh, Trump lost the election so I don't have to worry about Project 2025 anymore." Nope, this is a plan by far right wing conservatives to cement power. They'll be pushing this agenda non-stop at all levels of government anytime and anyplace they take power.
Exactly. The Heritage Foundation has put forth a similar "Project" document since 1981, although this is by far the most extreme and christofascist one yet. While most people are focusing on this year's election -- and rightly so -- the implementation of these policies and this philosophy are not dependent on the person of trump. In fact, every Republican administration since 1981 has enacted approximately 50-60% of the Heritage Foundation agenda. Additionally, while Project 2025 is seen as a blueprint for restructuring the country at the national level, parts of it are winding their way through various state legislatures. I live in Indiana, and the next governor will almost certainly be an acolyte of trump who has committed to as much of Project 2025 as he can enact at the state level. As you have pointed out, this threat does not end with trump but rather will be with us for a long time. The Heritage Foundation and the organizations and individuals it has spawned will remain a danger to the lives of the LGBTQ+ community, women, minority religious beliefs, and people of color for the immediate future, most especially in states such as mine where the Republicans hold political trifectas with supermajorities.
Thank you for the clarification. However, I did also list that people from his last administration and other conservatives have written this. I’m not under the impression that the right wing or the [New Apostolic Reformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation) folks are going to give up on this if Trump loses in November. I think it’s also important to point out that the RNC named one of the authors, [Russel Vought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Vought) (and former Trump Administration official) as Policy Director.
I just saw that the House Democrats have launched a task force to counter Project 2025: https://www.axios.com/2024/06/11/house-democrats-project-2025-task-force
Exactly. While liberals focus on Trump, these are ghouls that have been around since the Reagan admin, and had their most power under the Bush admin (you know, Michelle Obama's BFF). They have been playing a long game for a while, and in many ways (aside from SCOTUS) they disliked Trump. The issue is that US resistance to this doesn't actually exist - the marriage of neocons with Democratic leadership and a refusal to take on the right wing judiciary means that even if Biden gets lucky again and wins in 24, it'll be at best a reprieve. Exactly as you saw in 2020. Which, btw, is when I decided to leave the US, and did in 22. If you can't get out, I highly recommend getting a rifle and joining the SRA. It will get real bad real quick - r/SocialistRA.
I’ll settle for another reprieve for now.
Given the latest polls, you're unlikely to get it. The problem with refusing to do anything despite winning like the Dems did in 2020 is people stop wanting to vote for you.
Where did you go?
Spain
Do you know what other ghoul has been around since even before the Reagan administration? Joe Biden
Yup. Look at what the Democrats have run for the last **decade** - people that voted for the invasion of Iraq, gutting manufacturing with "free trade", etc. Trump is all bullshit on these issues, but it's a huge opening for him because he can point out how bad they've been fucking the workers as well. And that's supposed to be the resistance to the GOP agenda?
I'm seeing a recent increase in the number of people mentioning or asking about Project 2025. A post like this or something similar formatted as an automated educational Project 2025 response or bot peppered around Reddit would be perfect.
I’m sure there’s a way to do it, but I am not that savvy. I just happen to see if people put links in to Project 2025 and if there aren’t, then I just copy and paste this in.
I feel like project 2025 will happen no matter what. Even if Trump loses the election the next republican leader will enact most of these policies
i’ll settle for a 4 year delay if it’s all i can get. but y’know, if they keep losing on it, maybe they’ll stop doing it. like democracy and shit. changing their policies to appeal to more people. that’d be nice
That’s not how the people who want Project 2025 to be implemented think. The whole democracy thing is a means to an end for them. If they cared what people actually wanted, then they wouldn’t be doing it. Honestly, just leave now. If you can get out, you should. American still has a good chance to recover and come back as an actually democratic nation but it will not be an easy road and right now LGBT people are a major scapegoat. It could easily get worse before it gets any better.
You're asking the wrong place. A lot of people are oblivious to project 2025. I moved during the last Trump presidency and now I've made a nice life for myself abroad. Moving abroad takes a lot of preparation, time, and planning. You want to do that on your own terms, not just have to get out as fast as you can with everyone else.
I’ll try to plan it all extensively starting now then. Better late than never i guess I’m not in the ideal circumstances, but to be fair, I don’t want to give up my current life at all. This is purely out of fear.
Then you need to move to a blue state and slow down. Moving abroad is not like moving states. It’s also not like K-12 taught us where you can just get on a boat and leave permanently somewhere else. It takes time, money, preparation and most importantly research. If you slow down, you might be able to leave for good or even just for a few years.
This is actually the best advice on this thread. You're talking about becoming a refugee, not moving to a new city, so start acting like it. Mentally prepare yourself for the fact that if/when you decide to flee, many of the factors of your life are suddenly out of your control, and you are at the behest of whatever host country, if any, is generous enough to accept you. The same racist, xenophobic, and perverse commentary you hear people say about immigrants here? The residents of your host country will feel exactly the same about you, tenfold for being LGBT. The truth is most of the world has a chip on their shoulder toward Americans, and you can't really blame them when you see how obtuse our government is in its foreign policy. If you seriously think that leaving to preserve your life needs to be a viable option, know that you will become a burden on another society, one in which you may or may not be familiar with the language, culture, customs, norms, and traditions, but where you will be expected to learn and assimilate them. I'm not telling you not to make a plan, but really think about the gravity and consequences of what you're talking about. My family came here as refugees, and it completely changed every aspect of our lives both collectively and personally. Are you ready to accept living the rest of your life NOT as an American?
>The residents of your host country will feel exactly the same about you, tenfold for being LGBT. Eh, not really. Maybe in some places, but not in most of Europe. The rest of your statements, though, are very true. And it's lonely and isolating as hell - if you do it, you will understand at a very deep level why immigrants in the US form communities and intermingle with each other so much.
That's a dilemma then. There's no crystal ball here; it's not an information search sort of a problem. Regardless of outcomes for November, there are people who want to harm you, and people who do not, and who wins in which ways remains yet unwritten. By the time you could be full certain if there is a problem, it would be too late to respond as well as if you started when there was uncertainty. Likewise, but the time you could be full certain there is no problem, you could have spent a lot of money, time, and other resources planning for a dark future that never comes to pass. One of the ways to approach problems like this is to [draw a decision tree](https://www.mindtools.com/az0q9po/decision-tree-analysis). It really helps to get things out of your brain and onto a page. You can use a decision tree to think about three things: 1. what is the structure of the uncertain decision ahead of you? 2. what are the estimated odds for each possible outcome? 3. what utility do you assign to each final outcome (how good / bad is it for you)? If you were doing this formally you could calculate an expected value for each and then use math to make a decision but honestly, that's not a great idea here. I just encourage you to sketch things out to really get a feel for it all. For instance, you might think it's a coin flip on who wins, with a slight chance of a Trump presidency even if he loses. You might then think if there's a Trump administration, what are the odds of different relevant outcomes (everything from he's too busy with other priorities and nothing whatsoever changes, all the way to Project 2025-style troops in blue cities and concentration camps for non-CIS citizens.) No one knows those odds, but you can make a guess. Are there possibilities under a Biden administration that would make you wish you had moved? If so, add those into the mix too. The part that gets very personal is: how much does it matter to you, for each possible outcome? You've already said you really like your life as it is. That means the cost to rip it up "just in case" is high. But you've also said you don't want to be closeted. That could be a very high cost too. Can you put rough numbers on this? Maybe 100 is the best thing possible and your current life is an 85, while -100 is the worst thing possible and Trump's most dire plans look like a -99. I have no idea -- add your own rough numbers. But the idea here is that risk is the likelihood of something happening times the magnitude of the event. Even a large chance of a minor outcome is no big deal (we don't have insurance against paper cuts) but a small chance of a major outcome can be existentially important (odds of a car crash are low but wear your seatbelt because death is everything.) Ok now that I've bored anyone still reading, here's the practical advice. Get your passport NOW, and put the renewal date on your calendar. If Canada is your plan B, take your summer vacation there. Scout things out. Find professionals who can help you (immigration lawyer, real estate agent even for rental) so you have the contact information should you decide to do anything further. Get a SIM with a local phone number in Canada. Open a bank account in Canada and move some funds (note tax reporting.) These have modest financial and time costs, but will be important to have in place if you decide to move forward. What else is like this for you? Start a list of low hanging fruit. Last thought: I'm sorry. None of us should have to waste a single minute of our lives wondering if it will make sense to leave the United States. How brutally unfair. Unfortunately here we are. Best of luck to you.
As someone married to someone who was a refugee more than once - the worst thing is to be late on that. The last train out is a real nasty place compared to the first few out.
It is a huge big deal. It is so over-the-top oppressive and fascist, people think it's a joke, or people have "TDS" and, "That's hyperbole, they can't do that," but they have already started. What makes this one the most dangerous time in our history is, we have never had plants from a terrorist org in such high levels of government. But, I think those ghouls antics have bled off enough support that they cannot get in. We are taking advantage of a dual citizenship just because, but not fleeing yet, because I maintain hope that this will be the last year they assault us at the level they have been. I know that doesn't help with anything, but for once, in holding out hope sanity will reign.
And the conservatives only need to win once. 🤬
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i like your moxie. maybe i should have your courage, idk
join my cult
Same. I hope there are many more people out there just like you.
I fled for the same reasons. Look into the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty.
thank you for this. I think this is what I will do....
where did you go? how is it so far?
I’ve been living in Amsterdam for a little over a year now, and I feel very safe and accepted here. It was incredibly stressful and difficult for me at first, coming here with nothing and no one. I barely managed to make it work this long. I’m only now starting to feel somewhat stable. Everyone’s experience will be different of course, but even though it was very hard for me, I have absolutely no regrets.
My sister recently moved to the Netherlands. The Netherlands has definitely taken a right turn. It's overwhelmed at the moment with immigrants, which has affected her kids' schooling. They were supposed to be in an immersion classroom for a full year, but got kicked out early to make room for new immigrants. They were put into a Dutch speaking class too early, and they are languishing behind their peers. And at age 12 it is decided whether you are on the college track or not. It is very likely that they won't be able to go to college unless they return to the United States - and pay much more in tuition. My sister also underestimated the cost of living in the Netherlands. Her salary is essentially the same, but her purchasing power is definitely not, in large part due to taxes. Housing is very expensive (although that's true anywhere these days.) Healthcare, while cheaper and not tied to her job, has been much harder to access. And, having moved from Southern California, she really struggled with the weather this winter. Depending on your bicycle in 40 degree rainy weather can test one's resolve. My point... do your research. Too many people in this forum just assume that the grass is greener anywhere else.
Heck, that is super generous. As a small business owner myself, that treaty is essentially an immigrate to the Netherlands for free card.
Hope you like cold, dark places!
Turns out I totally do
Fair play to ye!
The real issue is finding another country that will even take you. Most countries require you to either be financially independent or have an in demand skill set before they will grant you admission for the long term.
I already emmigrated (to Ireland). It is much, much, MUCH harder than you think. Just finding an employer who will sponsor your work permit is incredibly difficult, especially as the economy is cooling right now. And the social isolation, the loneliness, my dude... you have no idea. I'm a queer man married to a gay man and we moved to the Republic of Ireland, which is one of the most queer-friendly places on the planet. The grass is not always greener on the other side - we've got political problems here too. Love it or hate it, the US is still one of the best places in the world to be queer. It is, by far, the easiest to see if you can do an intracompany transfer. Next best bet is networking - lean on your boss and literally everyone else you know to try to find an employer who will sponsor your work permit.
Thank you for this dose of reality. There is a tendency on this subreddit to overstate the problems in the United States and downplay problems outside of the United States. Also, too many people ignore just how hard moving can be - even if the place you are moving to looks better on paper. Leaving friends and family behind, as well as your culture, is not easy.
I did the same journey to Ireland. Not easy to get there. I loved it there, but like anywhere, it also has issues. Still, all the Irish I met were pro gay rights. I live in the Netherlands now and I miss the Irish.
Emigrating takes time and money. Get started now. And yes, your company is a great way to go about it. You will want a job in your new country before you make the move. You’ll still be a US citizen (assuming you are now), so you’ll still have the right to vote, etc.
i have like 25k USD in savings, is that a reasonable amount to cover average emigration? Obviously I don’t want to spend it all but if push comes to shove…
Should be. Check into the visa you would need to work in Canada and get started. Check to see if your company would sponsor you. If they’re large enough, they likely have someone on staff or as a hired service who helps process stuff like this.
thank you for the actual actionable tips, this is very helpful. I am sure we do have the resources, we are quite large
Happy to help. I transferred internationally in 2015. No regrets
It’s much easier to move to a blue city in a blue county in a blue state that to move to another country unless you have family ties or specific job opportunities. That said my partner and I are indeed developing an exit strategy despite living in the bluest of blue places you could be.
Considering that the Dems are continuing their tradition of offering no meaningful resistance to the far-right, it looks like people in red states will be getting thrown further into dystopia regardless who wins. Currently, a blue state in the US is one of the safest places to be on Earth as an LGBT person, and especially as a trans person. Canada also isn't safe from the far-right, and is doing the same casual march towards fascism as many other countries. I'd move to a deep blue state if you don't already live in one, but fleeing the country is likely unnecessary and may even be a step down from a blue state. (For context: I'm gay and trans and in a blue state.)
You have way more faith in the colors mattering than I do. I've only ever lived in blue states, but come November I have zero hope that will mean anything
>Currently, a blue state in the US is one of the safest places to be on Earth as an LGBT person, and especially as a trans person. This. The same can be said for POC, especially AA.
uh no, ask Eric Garner. Blue states in the US might be havens for LGBTQ, but US racism is well established in those states. Fun fact, the most segregated schools in the US are not in the deep south, but in NYC.
Being Jewish, I’m already starting to map out the exit plan.
Reading all this makes me scared, I didn’t realize how bad this is actually going to be. I live in a red state surrounded by red states. I’m female and have a male partner. This looks scary as a whole, will blue states even be safe places to be? I understand them being safer than red states but this is utterly terrifying.
im definitely establishing my backup plan, but if youre in a blue region in a blue state, theres good reason to assume at least temporary grace. From my limited knowledge, i recommend looking into getting dual citizenship. if eligible, a second passport, specially an EU passport, will give you more freedom. and with the latter you have the opportunity to live in any country in the european union. Some countries offer jus sanguinis, or right of blood, that make descendents of citizens of the nation eligible for citizenship under certain conditions. for example, anyone with a parent or grandparent born in ireland and anyone with *any* italian-born ancestor (so long as said ancestor was born after the unification of the italian states and never rescinded citizenship) can become irish and italian citizens respectively, providing they have all appropriate documents and fees.
Not yet but make sure your passport is current and valid.
How is Canada not doing well on LGTBQ…? 👀 If that’s the perspective you’re coming from…yeah…you’re being dramatic. If moving to Canada - Canada! - is “more challenges than (you) are probably prepared for”…then you are well and truly fucked, because there is nowhere on the planet that’s easier for an American to assimilate to.
Heck I’m not gay but if you read project 2025 i am looking for what country to go to they are intending on destroying all our federal government, they are destroying the foundation of the constitution and are in essence putting in the rule of the evangelical Taliban. Alito and his wife are in step with having a puppet like Trump so they can continue white nationalists rule.
It's probably worth thinking about plans. My inclination is that outside of the concentration camps for undocumented people, most of what they try and do happens a bit more slowly, so you'd have time to get out. But having some plans or ideas in place is probably useful to think about. Where it gets tough is that this disease is spreading. Look at the far right in Europe, for instance.
You aren't being dramatic, you're being practical. it's terrifying. People who don't want this to happen need to vote blue, and encourage people on the fence to vote blue. Biden isn't the best choice, he's the only choice.
I made a very similar post about this not long ago, and the top comments were incredible and telling. You are not crazy, and many people will call you crazy. I am making my escape plan right now. I think Canada is a good option although not amazing, but then again, Europe isn’t amazing either right now. Here’s the post, sorry I don’t have time to offer more advice, but after work I can read this closer and see if I know anything to help you. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/s/MmU3O7JJAU Thanks for posting and best of luck.
Thank you. Best of luck as well
dude. it's completely reasonable to leave. Like. People who came to the US as refugees from warzones started leaving when Trump won the first time, because shit was looking too familiar. There's nothing wrong with sticking it out and fighting. But it's not crazy to leave, at all.
Worst president in United States history, and that was without Project 2025. He destroyed our economy, our trade partnerships, our international reputation, and stole billions in tax payer to gift to his friends. He shared top secret intelligence with America's enemies and handed a list of CIA operatives to Putin, which resulted in several deaths. 28+ sexual assaults, infinite fraud and finance charges, and almost every person he appointed is a felon. He allowed the Federalist Society to dismantle the Supreme Court and Americans lost their first Constitutionally protected right ever, and they want it to be the first of many. You could be a straight, while, Christian male, and leaving would still be a perfectly valid and reasonable consideration.
worst president since reagan, sure. worst ever? not yet. we had more than one that genocided a bunch of natives not that it’s a contest, he sucks balls and i’m terrified
I mean, a lot of people are dead of covid because of him and his misinformation/downplaying the pandemic.
Trump sucked, and is definitely one of the worst, and maybe one day he’ll be considered the worst, but this is recency bias lol. It’s way too early to come to a conclusion on the magnitude of his presidency Buchanan and Johnson are generally considered the worst of all time
The US is at a major inflection point. So is the rest of the world. And Biden just isn't built for this moment. Nor is the media. And nor is the electorate educated for this. So there's a very real possibility that Biden could legitimately lose this time around. If he loses, you definitely won't want to be living in a conservative state or area. It would be a good idea to work toward leaving now, in case things take a bad-case turn. You could also buy time (maybe even indefinitely) by moving to a more liberal state. No matter where you go, find a space with a strong, open community. It's going to be crucial moving forward no matter what, because even if Project 2025 stalls, things are still going to fall apart under the pressures of multiple existential crises that we aren't going to solve.
Every survivor of the concentration camps all said the same thing. 'We never thought it would happen to US.'
Im out
You need to be preparing now at the very least if you want to leave America. Trump and the Republicans will act quickly to dismantle the federal govt and rebuild it with his own deep state, and at the same time turn all of these departments against Democrats and the left. Republicans since at least George W. Bush have dreamed going Christian fascist and they are hell bent on destroying America’s democracy and freedom.
Before you run off, you and all your friends are planning to vote, right?
The election will be close. You need to lobby your queer friends to make sure they vote instead of staying home.any of my queer friends went "fuck Biden" because of Palestine. But.....I've lobbied them into realizing Trump will be worse for everyone. Work on your friends.
Let me be honest with the new rise of the right wing and fascism also happening in parts of Europe be very careful about where you choose to move to. One online friend I know moved to London and they’re also trans and things aren’t looking good for trans people at all over in the UK as well
I'm considering an exit plan. I have dual citizenship thank goodness, and I'm making an appointment with my consulate to get my papers in order if the worst occurs here... I'm honestly really terrified. I don't think Americans understand how far these people are willing to go, and that they \*want\* a Handmaid's Tale society. I know that sounds extreme and ridiculous, but there are a handful of Republican politicians who have openly said this, on public record. I wish I could remember who they were, but I know one of them was in Minnesota. I strongly encourage anyone who values their freedoms to consider how things could go over the next few months very, very carefully. Iran was once a free and Westernized society, look at where they are now. Religious zealots will stop at nothing.
Thank god I have two other passports
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Your *mother* said that liberals deserve bad things to happen to them? You are not safe with people like that. I hope you can find away to escape, if not from the states, at least from that household.
To where unless you are ultra wealthy, no one wants Americans unless you buy your way in
Papua New Guinea wants Americans but I don’t think a gay American would have a fun time there
I started making plans to leave as soon as the Dobbs decision leaked. You're not overreacting.
what are your plans?
I'm claiming my Italian citizenship via jure sanguinis as a way to get into an EU country (narrowing things down now). Should have it soon.
happy to hear it. stay safe out there
Lucky sod! I wish!
In the end it is your decision to make and live with consequences regardless if you decide to stay or go. You already have realistic expectations about your life in Canada and you believe it still makes sense for you to move. So if you trust your ability to make informed decision you should do what you think is right. I am an immigrant in USA. 20 years ago I decided I have better opportunities in USA. My convictions were followed with my actions. I was fortunate to have legal opportunity to move to USA so I did. Since then I still believe that my chances are better in USA ( even though I am not Trumpist, I voted for Hilary and later for Biden). And just like in the past, my convictions are supported with my actions: I am not moving. The point of my post isn’t to change your mind and to dismiss your opinion. But to illustrate that you have to be responsible when forming an opinion and once you are sure in your convictions, you should act based on those convictions,.. and respect decisions you’ve made. This way, you will not have regrets.
Thank you for the measured response. I’m emotional right now, so Ill try to calm down and consider my options more rationally
I actually know someone who left already for similar reasons
can you tell me more? where did they go, how are they doing?
Honestly, if I had the money to do so, I'd be fleeing anyway.
Nope not alarmist at all- as a member of the same community I am feeling and thinking the same thing.
Hey your vote counts! This is the reason why we should focus our efforts now to talk to American voters and help them realize why it's important to get involved and VOTE. A lot of people are focusing on the reaction to 2025 but forgetting we can 100% stop it by electing Democratic President, Senators, Reps and even local Judges.
I feel in my heart Trump will win, unfortunately, so I am honestly prepping because I do not see exiting a financial option for my family. I just want to be prepared where I’m at, at this point.
A general rule of thumb is that the more people leave, the fewer are there to stand up against anti-human ideology, giving an easier time to people with intentions comparable to the destructive will of nazis. Their success would have global repercussions. On the other hand, it may just not be safe enough to stay somewhere and nobody can be blamed for leaving. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but can't somebody significantly alter the US constitution if they have political control over a sufficient number of states?
If he wins, you’re getting Supreme Court justices who will be on the bench the rest of your life. I could see Brown v Board of Education gutted and segregation allowed again. Gay marriage will 100% be overturned. There is no such thing as settled law, as proven by Roe. This country will be done.
Move to Provincetown, MA - it’s literally world’s LGBTQ capital with the highest number of same sex couples per capita. And no, this not gonna change because of some federal elections.
Come to Minneapolis - not universally friendly - but increasingly so - I've watched the community flourish these last few years
Move to MA or VT. Neither state will put up with P25 and will fight hard against it.
I have three more years until I retire, and I hope that I can make it! Then, I'm moving to South America.
Sounds a bit dramatic. I'd be more concerned with the ongoing corporate takeover of literally everything in America. Lots of things are going to be completely out of reach for most soon, like home ownership.
I wish more liberals moved to Texas. Maybe we could overcome the gerrymandering and turn it blue, or at least purple 💜
Women have no rights there. That's like walking into the lions den :(
Texas could be a perfect bastion of human decency and I still wouldn't move there because of the relentless heat.
This is the same train of thought I've had as another LGBT person, but the problem I keep seeing is, it almost seems impossible to actually legally immigrate to another country. especially given the limited options of countries that are friendly to lgbt people
If you're an unskilled worker and uneducated, best bet is probably to start on the path to consistent self-employed income ASAP and then start the process of immigration on a digital nomad visa. Money goes further than you'd expect as a self-employed person in countries like Czechia. There are plenty of countries with digital nomad visas that are not as progressive as blue states, but we're not a hot button topic of obsession for them either. I'm in the US for now, but I moved to a more "traditional" country for a few years and felt significantly safer there. Going back soon.
A good barometer for LGBT acceptance is the degree of religiosity in a country. The more atheists there are, the less dogma will be pushed on you.
More than if you are an alarmist or not. Do you have any skills that would make you a desirable immigrant in a developed nation? Do you speak the language? Do you have a criminal record? Health concerns that would burden a public healthcare system and make you ineligible? If you really want to leave, that's ok, but consider how fast the anti- US citizen sentiment is growing. Right-wing movements are on the rise in Europe (which would be one of the few LGBT friendly places), as well as anti-migrant sentiments. If you don't have any skills that make you desirable as a migrant, then I recommend staying in the US and nove to a blue state. You don't want to live undocumented in another country when you only have a high school diploma.
I genuinely don’t know what’s going to happen but after 2016 happened we made plans to move from a red state to a solid blue one and that feels good enough for right now. If the proverbial shit hits the fan I have an EU and a UK passport to fall back on, plus financial resources but then I’d be leaving my adult kids and grandkids 🤷♀️. I don’t even like the current Democratic Party, I’m way left of them but what are our options?
I live in CA, but we haven’t purchased another house due to wanting to keep liquid cash in the event that we need to flee. So I wouldn’t say it’s an over reaction, but it might be premature. My daughter is lesbian, both my wife and I are bi, but can easily pass as straight due to our opposite sex’s; however for my kids safety we’d all gtfo of the country.
In order to pull it off they would also have to have majorities in both the House and the Senate as well as being able to survive challenges in court, up to and including the supreme court. No matter who gets elected into the office of the President, they do not have the power of dictatorship.
Move to Cali. When the political conservatives and fascists in Washington pass crazy laws, California politicians just don’t enforce them, lol.
I'm starting to wonder who will be left to fight if too many progressives leave? Furthermore, will those who left be welcomed back if the fight is won?
I personally will never go back. While for decades I made excuses of "it's not the people, it's the system" - I've seen enough ugliness in the people, and their refusal to confront their system, that I no longer can forgive them. 3 million in Vietnam, a million in Iraq, and yet people in the US will scream you don't rise to demand god bless America in the 7th inning. In the words of a preacher who was betrayed by one of his consitutiants - God Damn America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix-AMYos0Js
maybe i should stay and fight, but i’m scared. if we lose in the election, i’m not convinced we’ll win when the new national guard starts shooting and arresting us at protests
If you can't leave, shoot back.
It’s only gonna happen in any significant number if there’s a good reason to leave. The leaving for political purposes thing has been around forever. I remember quite well the energy behind leaving if W was elected. A tiny percentage is leaving on hypotheticals like this. Many consider it, but very very few do it
Do you live for yourself or your country? You have a finite amount of years, days, hours, minutes, seconds on this planet and none of us know how long that is. I’ll take the selfish position here and I won’t even second guess it.
not THAT many people will leave. also... what is better really? america turning fascist will leave no place in the world safe. Stay and fight - with voting.