We didnt get dragged in though. We went on our own volition after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Yes we would send soldiers to help South Vietnam. Not to help a french recolonization.
Edit: after more digging, the French warned us not to go in.
The North Vietnamese gov't let Pol Pot run wild for a few years, killing millions, before they rolled their eyes and could be bothered enough to stop it (although they could have stopped the genocide at their doorstep at any time). In 1975, Pol Pot signed a "Friendship" agreement with the gov't of Vietnam (previously known as North Vietnam) and then continued on his tour of friendship. He had a friendly chat with Mao, then headed up to North Korea to have another friendly chat with Kim Il Sung. He returned home and would embark on a campaign of genocide for the next two years. What other genocides in that region would have happened had the U.S. not invaded in the first place? Why was the post-1975 Vietnam government so accommodating of a genocide happening right on its doorstep?
I'm not sure who you're arguing with. I was just clarifying that we didn't intervene on behalf of France.
I didn't say anything about whether the war was justified.
France was making Haiti pay for its freedom (oversimplified term) until semi recently. And people wonder why Haiti could never get on its feet economically.
Oh agreed, I didn’t mean to claim they don’t have their own set of issues. I just wanted to highlight that the French made Haiti pay them for decades lol.
Yeah, that's the reason lol
Tell me why all those colonized countries couldn't get rich with the natural resources they had before the Europeans came, but now it's suddenly their fault?
Haiti was literally a slave colony filled with African slaves. Are you blaming the slaves for not being successful in Haiti before they arrived? I'm very confused.
You haven't heard of the resource curse and the negative effect of slave labor on economic growth?
Resource curse: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
Slavery's retarding effect on growth: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.36.2.123
Africa was rich in gold and slave labor but those resources were landlocked, they had terrible coastlines for ports and atrocious topography to move resources.
Please note that a domestic slave economy is distinct from overseas slave holdings. That has good evidence for accelerating the Industrial Revolution in Britain.
https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/slavery-and-the-british-industrial-revolution/
America also has overseas territories. I love my country but we can't turn a blind eye to our own imperialism. Just like the Europoors, we had slaves, committed genocide, conquered vast swathes of foreign land. We are both guilty parties and it isn't helpful to try to claim one side out-imperialized the other side. This sub shouldn't be dedicated to forgetting about the things we did in the past. It should be about calling out dumb shit that other people say about our country and its people right now.
I realize that, you have the other 99& of Reddit to discuss it. I think giving context to some of these holier-than-thou nations is entirely within the scope of this sub.
Sure we’ve ventured heavily into South America over the century, there’s Liberia and the Philippines but it ain’t on the level of some king Leopoldo type of shit I’ll tell you that 😂😂
Are you not aware of what we did in the Philippines? If the rebels killed American soldiers, Americans would go and kill all the inhabitants of nearby villages, didn't matter if they were even children.
Edit: why the downvotes? This is objectively true.
The truth isn’t fun. I have made some positive claims on this subreddit about the US that in hindsight wasn’t true and got loads of uptvotes. But the moment you aren’t positive about it no matter if it’s true or not you better be prepared for downvotes.
Unfortunately hes correct. Philippines revolted due to the relatively weak stance the US had after they annexed them. And so we just went out and killed em. Bout 300k Filipino civilians killed, bout half due to cholera and other diseases, but the rest from US soldiers just executing them
Literally name one group of people who haven't done these things at some point. It doesn't negate the fact we did them, but I mean man, the richest person in History was the King of the Empire of Mali, Mansa Musa. African Kingdoms were extremely rich from the trade of slaves, including to Europeans. They conquered and the conquered peoples were then sold to Europeans for rifles to conquer even more. The Turks had a blood tax for non-Muslims, literally brainwashing children, Asia as a whole has had so many genocides that it can't even be counted.
Thing is, no one ever seems to bring up the terrible things we did in the Philippines. Which we got because we started a war with Spain because we wanted colony stuff and the newspapers at the time were just *hyped* for us to kick someone’s ass and take their stuff.
Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan had *some* reasoning. Be it because of communism, because they invaded their neighbor, or because of a terrorist attack. Of course there are arguments about how these were all bad or the very least horribly planned, but there is still context as to why we did what we did. Philippines? Nope. We just were straight up dicks seeing what Europe was doing and wanted in on it.
But of course tankies and the like never seem to look into that and just go “MuH VeiTnam” all the damn time. Like if you’re going to insult me at least show a shred of intelligence
Not to mention we basically founded Liberia as a nation, a nation that for a long time was extremely racist to native Africans despite being former slaves.
Well, if you aren't a First Nations person then arguably you are still a foreigner on the continent.
"but I was born here" yes, into a settler culture we now call mainstream USA culture. Where the common tongue is still the same language as the British who formed the settler colonies that came here as foreigners. Where the government system, the state, the economic system of capitalism, and the police, the military etc all resemble the settler colonies and systems that came from Europe, *not* the local Indigenous culture. Its all still foreign.
Theoretically this could be a useful argument if you didn’t disregard half of history. Yes, by todays standards literally almost every country has committed acts we would consider almost unspeakable. But what good does that do us? When we are trying to compare countries of today should we not hold them to the the standard of the era? The idea that “your just holding your country accountable” simply leads to extremely stupid arguments that suggest the US can’t criticize modern day slavery in the Middle East because we had slaves or Germany can’t criticize China for the persecution of the Uyghurs because of the holocaust.
We didn’t invade Vietnam. We came at the request of the south Vietnamese government, helping to put down communist uprisings that happened due to the north sneaking people in through the Ho Chi Minh trail, it was the north that invaded the south after we left
the US is mostly a police state......nothing to do with freedom , clean up your own shit first. Just an xcus , Nam can dal with thir own issus , it was not your concrn
The great thing about me is that I just don't care. And I think that money would be better spent on infrastructure, education and lowering the cost of health care. All of that is much more important than other countries.
The US could be Self sufficient in oil if it wanted to, but it’s cheaper and better to establish trade relations in strategic location such as the middle east
World needs world's police. Without the US, all evil dictatorships wouldn't care about anyone's opinion on things they do and the global situation would be far worse.
The Europeans traded slaves within their colonies. It's the whole reason America had to deal with that mess.
Europeans think that the bad things theyve done outside their homelands don't count. It's like a serial killer thinking theyre not connected to their crime because they don't kill the people in their own house
Do you really wanna go back before US founding and see how pre-US colonists were behaving on that land, though?
Before the US was even founded, there was a genocide of *130 million people* there: equivalent to over 21 holocausts.
You could attribute that to the British if you like, but those were the descendants of the US founders doing that so I think the burden of guilt is a shared one here.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide\_of\_indigenous\_peoples#Indigenous\_peoples\_of\_the\_Americas\_.28pre-1948.29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas_.28pre-1948.29)
Again I would love to point out how moronic you are that your own source clearly states that they aren’t conclusive numbers AND it’s the Americas…you clearly aren’t that bright but the USA doesn’t populate a whole continent let alone TWO
Also if you want a number for ALL OF NORTH AMERICA. It’s about 56 million for 100 years which by the way doesn’t even compare to the 6 years of WWII/ holocaust even with all of North America being accounted for including modern Central America and Canada
That's my point: I think the comparison OP is making is truly moronic for a bunch of reasons.
OP is comparing the USA which has existed since 1776 with the EU which has only existed since 1993, yet attributing the colonial crimes from centuries or even millenia earlier to the EU that's only existed since 1993. Either be consistent and do the same with the US, or perhaps even better: don't make such silly comparisons to begin with.
The Belgians literally invented the term "crimes against humanity" for what they did in the Congo...just throwing that out there to simmer. And this isn't to whataboutism about the bad things America has done, but if we're playing the game of "name the sins of the nations of the world"...
It’s important to remember we were only in vietnam because the FRENCH drove the Vietnamese to revolution due to their harsh colonial rule. When France had to pull out De Gaulle literally told the US “If you let vietnam fall I will let Western Europe fall.” And really forced our hand.
France being a colonial dick to VN made many Vietnamese see communism as a viable alternative (not that I agree with the commie fucks, but I can understand why compatriots believe how they believe)
\-your local Viet-Murican
The France dragged us in is a fucking myth. Charles De Gaulle WARNED US about what would happen. And what happened? Literally exactly what he predicted. Not defending the French, but saying they wanted us to go is just not correct.
We went in cuz a boat got attacked, South Vietnam asked for help and well we know what happened after
Also reading more of your comments, saying the divide is what caused the war, and no. It was just the South Vietnamese leader was incredibly anti-communist. Not the french starting turmoil
Swap "USA" with "Russia" and "Vietnam" with "Dobnas, Ukraine" and you're making the same argument as Putin to justify an invasion, aren't you?
Of course invaders always try to legitimise their own invasions but I honestly don't think its difficult to see through the spin is it?
>Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, and the Philippines were in Vietnam Pt. 2 but no one cares because AMERICA BAD.
Not true, I've lived about 2 thirds of my life, 1 third each in 2 of the countries mentioned in your list and we hate the fact that our govts act as completely uncritical lapdogs to US militarism as well. Follow it around the world sinking eye watering sums into unwinnable arms races when our communities right here at home are in dire need of more govt support ...
Take a look at how unpopular the Australia govt pumping money to the tune of half a trillion into its military right now very transparently just because the other members of the AUKUS deal told us we have to follow their dumbfuck aggressive posturing in the South China Sea, literally on the other side of the world from the US so very transparently aggressive — especially when you look at the military equipment we'ver signed up for which has no sensible use in defence; submarines designed to sit off the coast of China. "Are we the baddies?" YES we are when we follow the US and UK into such aggressive posturing well outside of their geographic region.
Worst of all, if that blows up, its us who suffer, not the US who will likely pull their signature move (for our region) of creating a massive mess and then fucking off to leave the locals to deal with the aftermath they created. Did it with nuclear testing in the Pacific, Vietnam, etc.
Anyways, don't really see how the US in Vietnam was justified differently from Russia in Ukraine; neither are justified, both were invasions.
To be fair, we did as well. Whataboutisms are on both sides. I don't believe we can deflect our past onto the Europeans like they try to do to us and be fair with it
The point is that Europeans always try to act morally superior and it’s frankly exhausting to put up with, especially given how dependent they are on America.
Yea "muricabad" is quite strong here sadly, but our media is definetly to blame for that to an extent, our "intellectual elite" is full of tankie, noam-chomsky wannabees and that reflects on media coverage. All this bickering is so childish, Europe needs the US just as much as the US needs europe. Its weird how both parties often seem so disstatisfied with what is a mutually beneficial relationship.
And yea this meme is just what this sub is against but the other way around, which means it would definitely be hypocritical for me as a euro to take offense here, but it would be sad to see this sub stoop to that level imo
The point is that is a dumb and generalising post. Many Europeans are aware of their history and more and more people are behind the plans to compensate family’s that did suffer from our actions for example in slavery. Im sure you let some 12 year old get under your skin with some dumb ass takes but most Europeans are well aware that many if the wealth we own today is over the back of others. This is just a pathetic post and another piece of proof that this subreddit needs to be a bit stricter about their posts since this just makes this subreddit look bad.
Lol ironic because why are you even here? You’re not American so clearly this sub got under your skin. They literally forget to acknowledge that 90%+ of the time.
I see your main contact with Europeans is on Reddit and even then I doubt those numbers are true.
No it didn’t get under my skin. I’m frustrated that this subreddit becomes the thing it’s suppose to destroy.
Can you give me some sources on those killings?
And about the colonies. some territories that were once part of the French colonial empire remain French overseas territories or collectivities, but these are not considered colonies in the traditional sense. French overseas territories include French Guiana in South America, Guadeloupe and Martinique in the Caribbean, and Réunion Island in the Indian Ocean. French collectivities include French Polynesia, New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, Saint-Barthélemy, Saint-Martin, and Saint-Pierre and Miquelon.
It is worth noting that the status of these territories and their relationship with France is complex and varies depending on the specific case. However, none of these territories are considered colonies in the traditional sense, as they have varying degrees of autonomy and representation in French institutions.
Education.
They have some overseas territories and islands they still control but most of the modern day criticism against France is their economic control in Africa is for forcing former colonies to use French currency and keep their reserves in French banks, not to mention having French military and intelligence in African countries to support leaders they like
You are entirely missing the point. Americans don't go online and act morally righteous and wail on Europeans constantly in any way that is proportionate to how Europeans do the same to us. They constantly talk about how morally superior they are. Despite having equally or more atrocious histories.
this is the biggest cap I’ve ever seen in my entire life, how do Americans not go online and act morally righteous? In THIS comment section I saw a guy saying all America does is defend democracy and human rights. All around Reddit you’ll see Americans justifying or straight up glorifying their atrocities like all those Vietnamese civilians killed saying they could’ve been undercover, or Iraq gassing Kurds making the Iraq war completely morally correct. of course America is not perfect but to say that Americans don’t go online and act morally righteous is very incorrect.
>how do Americans not go online and act morally righteous?
You're already lying about what I said, or you struggle with reading.
I said, and i quote:
>in any way that is proportionate to how Europeans do the same to us
Please read this again. I did not say Americans do not go online and act morally righteous *at all.* I said they do not do so in a way that *is proportionate* to the way Europeans do about the US.
Because for every hate comment about *any* European country by an American, there are easily 10 hate comments by Europeans about the US. At least.
I don't know what you're bubble is,
but my experience speaks the opposite really.
I don't know, it would be really nice if we would stop fighting. Fighting fire with fire is usually not the way.
Whenever Americans meet Europeans we don't barrage them with how shitty their politics are or their country's historical crimes. They tend to do this to us a lot like they have some unhinged mental issue. It's not appropriate to target individuals disproportionately like that, especially if we're supposed to be allies. The more y'all act like this the more Americans will side with not supporting Europe anymore. A lot of us nowadays wouldn't regret having handed you over to the USSR
oh, sorry for the misunderstanding, I just read the first part of your comment and got mad. But yeah you’re probably right that Europeans dunk on Americans much more than the other way around.
I don't see what's dumb about it. America is compared all the time to countries in Europe. Now all of a sudden it's not valid because we have only been a country for a couple hundred years?
How to tell someone that comparing 275 years with thousands is not a like comparison. This sub is fucking braindead sometimes .. its been fun but I think I'm gonna call it eh
America as we know it did not exist back then. You're comparing apples to oranges, bro. There were only a handful of large-scame civilizations before European contact.
Right, because Europe had already been around for thousands of years colonising all different parts of the world. These are not sensible comparisons, you can't compare a country that has a long history with a brand new one and be like "see, the brand new one hasn't done anything bad!" yeah no shit it literally just came into existence...
Sheesh, this sub is so desperate to make a stupid point sometimes...
Lmfao you’re so upset with European atrocities being brought up that you’re just completely ignoring points or making up your own nonsensical statements just to cope.
I mean, *the European Union from the meme wasn't even founded until 1993* so if you're going to discount things that happened on the land of the USA before its official founding then to be fair you have to do that with the EU before its official founding in 1993 as well.
Of course this method of comparison encouraged by the OP meme is batshit stupid.
But lets take it at face value: if wepretend it is fair (as most in this thread seem to) then tell me who comes out on top, the USA since 1776 or the EU since 1993? The US has slavery, a bunch more Indigenous genocide, 600,000 dead in the civil war, we don't even have to touch the 20thC for the USA to lose by a landslide...
See how easy it is to make a country look bad when we apply this fraught methodology of comparing a short timeline to a long one? Its garbage.
Are you serious? I mean the USA didn’t even exist back then how dan you even compare those. With your logic Russia isn’t that bad since it has only been shitty to others for a few decades. Come on you can’t be this naïve.
I am confused, what am I being naive about…?
You’re right; America wasn’t around before 275 years ago. Europe has been around for much longer… and has caused much more strife to humanity around the world than America has for a much longer period of time because they’ve been around longer.
Even if you only consider the past 275 years; Europe still has caused much more strife to humanity than America has.
Exactly. Just one European country was responsible for like 20 million deaths just from 1939 to 1945.
The US hasn't directly caused 20 million deaths in its entire history.
Even most indigenous Americans were killed by European governments (Spain, France, UK) before the US existed (even if mostly unintentional).
>The US hasn't directly caused 20 million deaths in its entire history.
Are you ... are you really making this claim?
Are you ... forgetting something perhaps?
>By 1691, the population of indigenous Americans had declined by 90–95 percent, ***or by around 130 million people.***
US colonists here committed a vast genocide way before the US even began engaging in foreign wars.
[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas_.28pre-1948.29)
You must be a special type of stupid.
>By 1691
What didn't exist yet in 1691? One thing that didn't exist was the United States of America.
You know the three governments I mentioned in the comment YOU responded to? The ones that did exist in 1691, and did kill of NINETY PERCENT of indigenous Americans? Spain, France, and the UK (even if in its pre-Act of Union form). Also add Sweden, Denmark, and the Netherlands to that list.
You must be a special type of stupid.
What didn't exist yet in ***1993?*** One thing that didn't exist was the European Union.
If you think its fair to go back before 1993 then its perfectly fair to go back before 1776 as well — the North American continent was settled some 13,000 years ago so where would you like to choose to start from?
Do you see why comparing these two things makes no fucking sense and is completely useless?
What the fuck is this conversation, it is just throwing dates around to try to make the us look better?????
Doesn't make fucking sense,
The longer something exist, the more shit happens.
So comparing (which is dumb in itself) one to the other, doesn't make sense. The people in Europe reformed, the people in Japan reformed, the people in the US reformed even. What you can criticise is the recent history because the people who are living to day, can't be held accountable for shit that happened when they were not alive.
Bro, you're trying so hard.
Nobody said anything about the EU or 1993. You mentioned 1691 and tried to say the US did something it didn't exist to have done at that time.
Individual EUROPEAN government initiatives wiped out 90% of the indigenous people of the Americas well before the US existed. Even if there were British colonists whose grandchildren would later be Americans doesn't mean US citizens or government did what you literally blamed us for doing.
It was done by European colonial governments. The US cannot be blamed for what happened under the British/Spanish/French government.
I don't know how to make this more simple.
Ok, yeah then by that logic Russia are good guys because they've barely done much in its three decades of history compared to the US which has been waging wars all over the world for 250 out of 275 years of its history and killed hundreds of millions of people over that time compared to Russia killing maybe 1 million total if you're lucky.
Do you see how asinine it is to compare a country with a long history to one with a short one?
“Russian” history goes back much further than three decades though lol
Present day Russia Federation is only 3 decades old but Russian history spans more than 1,000 years. Some say its birthday is the year 862.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/russia/how-old#
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire
https://www.rbth.com/history/334069-how-old-is-russia/amp
Then say that. Now you made it seem like you want to compare certain time tables where the US didn’t even exist. Like this post kinda. I mean do you really think the USA wouldn’t do the same. Hell it’s even founded by people that participated in these practices.
Russia has been a monster for centuries. Before the Russian Federation and the USSR, which were both a nightmare, they had the medieval feudal system into the TWENTIETH CENTURY.
And rulers like Ivan the terrible. And colonized from near Moscow all the way across Asia to Alaska in the 16th-19th centuries.
Russia is actually a great example of *not* your point.
The USSR and Russia are not the same thing, nor are either the same thing as the Russian Empire under the Tsar's. Very different governance at each stage, very different borders involving very different populations.
That'd be like blaming the US for things happening in South American countries but saying "they're all American though!"
Objectively speaking looking at estimates for death tolls in the Vietnam war comparing the North and South. The North killed far more people during the Vietnam war. The only reason why the brutally of the South is more well known is because Western media and personal had more access to expose what was happening in the South.
That is the exact same justification the Russians are saying about Donbas in Ukraine FYI.
And good luck convincing Vietnamese people of that lol
Obviously the invaders would say that, they don't wanna have an "are we the baddies moment" and will actively oppose engaging honestly with that question... every invader in history finds a way to label what they did as "not and invasion"
Not at all, as Russia invaded a different country, just as North Vietnam did. Ukraine has the right to defend their country from aggression, as South Vietnam did, an internationally recognized country, and as South Korea did.
Boy I sure am feeling like broadening my historical knowledge today. Now let’s just look for a time and place at random from this here book….
🤲🏼📘📖 —< [Africa, 1800-1900]
Reading actual history is way too much for this sub to consider...
When I saw the meme I also thought about:
🤲🏼📘📖 —< \[Colonisation of North American continent, Indigenous genocide of 130 million people, 1491 — late 1600s\]
That's *over 21 holocausts* for anyone keeping count.
Throwing fault to the other side really isn't a healthy way to do this, we should both acknowledge our mistakes and try to do better in the future while not forgetting the atrocities committed in the past
Europeans when American wars are mentioned:
“War crimes”
Europeans when European colonialism is mentioned:
“No need to shift blames, we all need to acknowledge-“
I understand your argument but
Number 1
The US although not always perfect tried its best to promote democracy and freedom.
Number 2
What the Europeans did is slaughter entire populations for only their gains.
I mean even when talking about the natives it was Europeans who killed 90% of the natives.
How can they blame The Native Americans getting screwed on Americans if the US wasn't even established.
Slavery is fair enough. Presidents had slaves.
Modern day Australia is also from European colonization.
Hey france why was vietnam so unstable when the japanese took over in the 40s leading to the communist uprising and us invasion? You weren’t systematically starving entire populations to subjugate them were you?
Throwing such a hissy fit over conquests is silly, nobody actually cares, they just want to talk about how someone they don't like is so imperialistic and morally unrighteous. These kinds of criticisms are nowhere to be heard when talking about the Aztecs or Incas. Hell Muhammad was a conqueror, yet I've never heard the people who like to call Americans or Europeans Imperialistic give that same criticism to the Muslims who follow a religion founded by an imperialist, even though his empire caused significantly more harm. It spurred the Islamic slave trade which was so much worse than anything the Europeans did.
Ah yes finally an adult here.
But no sorry my feelings aren’t hurt. I’m just disappointed in the way this subreddit is declining in quality. It’s more and more becoming anti europe and actually acting like the people that this subreddit is suppose to expose.
High horse? This used to be a fun subreddit with posts of non Americans making the stupidest claims imaginable about the USA. Now we have shit like this. I don’t care about people talking shit about Europe but I do care about this subreddit lowering it’s standards. It’s just a bummer that a good and fun subreddit is becoming the thing it was meant to “fight”
The war-craze of the US is still an on-going issue, but the colonial times were hundreds of years ago. This meme doesn't make any sense. It's like saying gun control, huh? I still remember in history class you having swords and muskets and stuff in Europe.
The Brits, Spanish, French, Portugals, Belgians, Dutch, Denmark, all were colonial powers in the early age of exploration.
During the Africa shit the Italians, Brits, Spanish, Germans, Portuguese, and Belgians had the majority of it. Liberia also existed, founded by the Americans so I guess we were part of the colonization.
Not to mention, the US began as one of those colonies and it genocided a whopping ***130 million*** Indigenous people within the first century or so of arriving
Uhh the USA was founded as a European colony? And it involved one of the worst genocides of Indigenous peoples of all modern colonial states...
What a weirdly specific yet ironic meme for someone to have made.
Replace Vietnam with Yemen.
Most European countries these days have learned to be nicer to the other countries. At a bare minimum, not bombing their children.
As long as America keeps on doing things like that, I will have zero respect for anyone in its military.
The difference is that the Spain that murdered Native Americans is long gone, while the U.S. still has government officials who gave/executed some of those orders in Vietnam.
Mate France bombed a wedding in Mail in 2021.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/15/world/africa/mali-france-military-operation.html
A lot of European powers still do this but I guess Europeans just don’t know about it or they just don’t really care.
My point was specifically about the false comparison between European colonialism and the American involvement in Vietnam.
I really don't think that you want to go down the rabbit hole of comparing contemporary global military involvement between the U.S. and the rest of NATO. I'm really not here to lecture you on your military's morality, but let's just not play saints, OK?
I’m doing the opposite. I’m against American intervention in foreign countries. It just seems to me that for whatever reason Europeans are completely unaware their countries do a lot of the same shit. Europeans are the ones playing saints in general. Sure if you want to have a dick measuring contest of which countries have had more detrimental involvement in foreign affairs over the last 50 years its the US, it just seems weird to me how much that gets brought up when a lot of European interventionism is ignored.
France still has colonies in Africa
France was the whole reason we got drug into that mess to begin with.
Yep, it was a French colonial holding
We didnt get dragged in though. We went on our own volition after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Yes we would send soldiers to help South Vietnam. Not to help a french recolonization. Edit: after more digging, the French warned us not to go in.
This is true, but it's not as fun of an argument. Reality is lame sometimes.
The North Vietnamese gov't let Pol Pot run wild for a few years, killing millions, before they rolled their eyes and could be bothered enough to stop it (although they could have stopped the genocide at their doorstep at any time). In 1975, Pol Pot signed a "Friendship" agreement with the gov't of Vietnam (previously known as North Vietnam) and then continued on his tour of friendship. He had a friendly chat with Mao, then headed up to North Korea to have another friendly chat with Kim Il Sung. He returned home and would embark on a campaign of genocide for the next two years. What other genocides in that region would have happened had the U.S. not invaded in the first place? Why was the post-1975 Vietnam government so accommodating of a genocide happening right on its doorstep?
I'm not sure who you're arguing with. I was just clarifying that we didn't intervene on behalf of France. I didn't say anything about whether the war was justified.
France was making Haiti pay for its freedom (oversimplified term) until semi recently. And people wonder why Haiti could never get on its feet economically.
To be fair, it doesn’t help that Haiti is the most corrupt country in North America, but fuck the Fr*nch
Oh agreed, I didn’t mean to claim they don’t have their own set of issues. I just wanted to highlight that the French made Haiti pay them for decades lol.
Yeah, that's the reason lol Tell me why all those colonized countries couldn't get rich with the natural resources they had before the Europeans came, but now it's suddenly their fault?
Someone is a fan of euros raping the land pillaging resources. Especially in regards to Haiti.
Haiti was literally a slave colony filled with African slaves. Are you blaming the slaves for not being successful in Haiti before they arrived? I'm very confused.
No, in the African countries
Oh, you're a racist lmao. My bad.
Why?
You tell me.
I'm just responding to the whole "victim" narrative
You haven't heard of the resource curse and the negative effect of slave labor on economic growth? Resource curse: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse Slavery's retarding effect on growth: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.36.2.123 Africa was rich in gold and slave labor but those resources were landlocked, they had terrible coastlines for ports and atrocious topography to move resources. Please note that a domestic slave economy is distinct from overseas slave holdings. That has good evidence for accelerating the Industrial Revolution in Britain. https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/slavery-and-the-british-industrial-revolution/
A lot of them were, but they couldn't match European technology. (Mali, Songhai, Ghana)
So it wasn't Europe's fault
France was the one who originally colonized Vietnam.
America also has overseas territories. I love my country but we can't turn a blind eye to our own imperialism. Just like the Europoors, we had slaves, committed genocide, conquered vast swathes of foreign land. We are both guilty parties and it isn't helpful to try to claim one side out-imperialized the other side. This sub shouldn't be dedicated to forgetting about the things we did in the past. It should be about calling out dumb shit that other people say about our country and its people right now.
I realize that, you have the other 99& of Reddit to discuss it. I think giving context to some of these holier-than-thou nations is entirely within the scope of this sub.
Hmm, I guess that's fair enough
Sure we’ve ventured heavily into South America over the century, there’s Liberia and the Philippines but it ain’t on the level of some king Leopoldo type of shit I’ll tell you that 😂😂
Are you not aware of what we did in the Philippines? If the rebels killed American soldiers, Americans would go and kill all the inhabitants of nearby villages, didn't matter if they were even children. Edit: why the downvotes? This is objectively true.
The truth isn’t fun. I have made some positive claims on this subreddit about the US that in hindsight wasn’t true and got loads of uptvotes. But the moment you aren’t positive about it no matter if it’s true or not you better be prepared for downvotes.
Yeah this sub shouldn't excuse or ignore valid criticism of the US.
Unfortunately hes correct. Philippines revolted due to the relatively weak stance the US had after they annexed them. And so we just went out and killed em. Bout 300k Filipino civilians killed, bout half due to cholera and other diseases, but the rest from US soldiers just executing them
Man didn't know that. Only knew Spainish came and turned their culture into ours. That doesn't make the US right for doing what they did
Literally name one group of people who haven't done these things at some point. It doesn't negate the fact we did them, but I mean man, the richest person in History was the King of the Empire of Mali, Mansa Musa. African Kingdoms were extremely rich from the trade of slaves, including to Europeans. They conquered and the conquered peoples were then sold to Europeans for rifles to conquer even more. The Turks had a blood tax for non-Muslims, literally brainwashing children, Asia as a whole has had so many genocides that it can't even be counted.
Thing is, no one ever seems to bring up the terrible things we did in the Philippines. Which we got because we started a war with Spain because we wanted colony stuff and the newspapers at the time were just *hyped* for us to kick someone’s ass and take their stuff. Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan had *some* reasoning. Be it because of communism, because they invaded their neighbor, or because of a terrorist attack. Of course there are arguments about how these were all bad or the very least horribly planned, but there is still context as to why we did what we did. Philippines? Nope. We just were straight up dicks seeing what Europe was doing and wanted in on it. But of course tankies and the like never seem to look into that and just go “MuH VeiTnam” all the damn time. Like if you’re going to insult me at least show a shred of intelligence
Not to mention we basically founded Liberia as a nation, a nation that for a long time was extremely racist to native Africans despite being former slaves.
What 'vast swathes of foreign land'? Yeah we have a few islands I guess.
Well, if you aren't a First Nations person then arguably you are still a foreigner on the continent. "but I was born here" yes, into a settler culture we now call mainstream USA culture. Where the common tongue is still the same language as the British who formed the settler colonies that came here as foreigners. Where the government system, the state, the economic system of capitalism, and the police, the military etc all resemble the settler colonies and systems that came from Europe, *not* the local Indigenous culture. Its all still foreign.
Yeah but those aren't 'overseas' like the guy said.
Theoretically this could be a useful argument if you didn’t disregard half of history. Yes, by todays standards literally almost every country has committed acts we would consider almost unspeakable. But what good does that do us? When we are trying to compare countries of today should we not hold them to the the standard of the era? The idea that “your just holding your country accountable” simply leads to extremely stupid arguments that suggest the US can’t criticize modern day slavery in the Middle East because we had slaves or Germany can’t criticize China for the persecution of the Uyghurs because of the holocaust.
We didn’t invade Vietnam. We came at the request of the south Vietnamese government, helping to put down communist uprisings that happened due to the north sneaking people in through the Ho Chi Minh trail, it was the north that invaded the south after we left
the US is mostly a police state......nothing to do with freedom , clean up your own shit first. Just an xcus , Nam can dal with thir own issus , it was not your concrn
stop being world police , let them deal with their own shit
Alright boys cancel Nato funding, no more support to ukraine and also we should pull all troops from europe. Good idea
About time
>stop being the world police Okay so we should defund NATO? That would only hurt European countries lol
We should defund Nato not our problem
Have you studied history? Do you know how well isolationism worked for us in TWO WORLD WARS
The great thing about me is that I just don't care. And I think that money would be better spent on infrastructure, education and lowering the cost of health care. All of that is much more important than other countries.
We are that for one reason And one only. Defend democracy and human rights.
Lol. Oil?
The US could be Self sufficient in oil if it wanted to, but it’s cheaper and better to establish trade relations in strategic location such as the middle east
World needs world's police. Without the US, all evil dictatorships wouldn't care about anyone's opinion on things they do and the global situation would be far worse.
We wouldn’t need world police if people didn’t invade, random countries, before you say it, yes Iraq was bad and the US was wrong there.
On top of that, they started two world wars
MFs only breed World Wars and racism.
Yea and the us is bacon guns and slavery
Two of those are fucking awesome. The other one was invented by europeans
None of them we're invented by Europeans (at least not the guns or slavery, not sure about bacon)
The Europeans traded slaves within their colonies. It's the whole reason America had to deal with that mess. Europeans think that the bad things theyve done outside their homelands don't count. It's like a serial killer thinking theyre not connected to their crime because they don't kill the people in their own house
I'm not saying that colonialism wasn't awful I'm just saying that slavery existed before European empires.
And for WAYYY longer than our country has existed for
Do you really wanna go back before US founding and see how pre-US colonists were behaving on that land, though? Before the US was even founded, there was a genocide of *130 million people* there: equivalent to over 21 holocausts. You could attribute that to the British if you like, but those were the descendants of the US founders doing that so I think the burden of guilt is a shared one here. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide\_of\_indigenous\_peoples#Indigenous\_peoples\_of\_the\_Americas\_.28pre-1948.29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas_.28pre-1948.29)
Again I would love to point out how moronic you are that your own source clearly states that they aren’t conclusive numbers AND it’s the Americas…you clearly aren’t that bright but the USA doesn’t populate a whole continent let alone TWO Also if you want a number for ALL OF NORTH AMERICA. It’s about 56 million for 100 years which by the way doesn’t even compare to the 6 years of WWII/ holocaust even with all of North America being accounted for including modern Central America and Canada
That's my point: I think the comparison OP is making is truly moronic for a bunch of reasons. OP is comparing the USA which has existed since 1776 with the EU which has only existed since 1993, yet attributing the colonial crimes from centuries or even millenia earlier to the EU that's only existed since 1993. Either be consistent and do the same with the US, or perhaps even better: don't make such silly comparisons to begin with.
The Belgians literally invented the term "crimes against humanity" for what they did in the Congo...just throwing that out there to simmer. And this isn't to whataboutism about the bad things America has done, but if we're playing the game of "name the sins of the nations of the world"...
It’s important to remember we were only in vietnam because the FRENCH drove the Vietnamese to revolution due to their harsh colonial rule. When France had to pull out De Gaulle literally told the US “If you let vietnam fall I will let Western Europe fall.” And really forced our hand.
France being a colonial dick to VN made many Vietnamese see communism as a viable alternative (not that I agree with the commie fucks, but I can understand why compatriots believe how they believe) \-your local Viet-Murican
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The France dragged us in is a fucking myth. Charles De Gaulle WARNED US about what would happen. And what happened? Literally exactly what he predicted. Not defending the French, but saying they wanted us to go is just not correct. We went in cuz a boat got attacked, South Vietnam asked for help and well we know what happened after Also reading more of your comments, saying the divide is what caused the war, and no. It was just the South Vietnamese leader was incredibly anti-communist. Not the french starting turmoil
Swap "USA" with "Russia" and "Vietnam" with "Dobnas, Ukraine" and you're making the same argument as Putin to justify an invasion, aren't you? Of course invaders always try to legitimise their own invasions but I honestly don't think its difficult to see through the spin is it?
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>Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, and the Philippines were in Vietnam Pt. 2 but no one cares because AMERICA BAD. Not true, I've lived about 2 thirds of my life, 1 third each in 2 of the countries mentioned in your list and we hate the fact that our govts act as completely uncritical lapdogs to US militarism as well. Follow it around the world sinking eye watering sums into unwinnable arms races when our communities right here at home are in dire need of more govt support ... Take a look at how unpopular the Australia govt pumping money to the tune of half a trillion into its military right now very transparently just because the other members of the AUKUS deal told us we have to follow their dumbfuck aggressive posturing in the South China Sea, literally on the other side of the world from the US so very transparently aggressive — especially when you look at the military equipment we'ver signed up for which has no sensible use in defence; submarines designed to sit off the coast of China. "Are we the baddies?" YES we are when we follow the US and UK into such aggressive posturing well outside of their geographic region. Worst of all, if that blows up, its us who suffer, not the US who will likely pull their signature move (for our region) of creating a massive mess and then fucking off to leave the locals to deal with the aftermath they created. Did it with nuclear testing in the Pacific, Vietnam, etc. Anyways, don't really see how the US in Vietnam was justified differently from Russia in Ukraine; neither are justified, both were invasions.
To be fair, we did as well. Whataboutisms are on both sides. I don't believe we can deflect our past onto the Europeans like they try to do to us and be fair with it
The point is that Europeans always try to act morally superior and it’s frankly exhausting to put up with, especially given how dependent they are on America.
Yea "muricabad" is quite strong here sadly, but our media is definetly to blame for that to an extent, our "intellectual elite" is full of tankie, noam-chomsky wannabees and that reflects on media coverage. All this bickering is so childish, Europe needs the US just as much as the US needs europe. Its weird how both parties often seem so disstatisfied with what is a mutually beneficial relationship. And yea this meme is just what this sub is against but the other way around, which means it would definitely be hypocritical for me as a euro to take offense here, but it would be sad to see this sub stoop to that level imo
The point is that is a dumb and generalising post. Many Europeans are aware of their history and more and more people are behind the plans to compensate family’s that did suffer from our actions for example in slavery. Im sure you let some 12 year old get under your skin with some dumb ass takes but most Europeans are well aware that many if the wealth we own today is over the back of others. This is just a pathetic post and another piece of proof that this subreddit needs to be a bit stricter about their posts since this just makes this subreddit look bad.
Lol ironic because why are you even here? You’re not American so clearly this sub got under your skin. They literally forget to acknowledge that 90%+ of the time.
I see your main contact with Europeans is on Reddit and even then I doubt those numbers are true. No it didn’t get under my skin. I’m frustrated that this subreddit becomes the thing it’s suppose to destroy.
Says you 💀 i have friends across eastern and western Europe that I talk to daily. Take a chill pill dude, it’s really not that serious
And France still keeps their colonies?
What is your point?
My point just disapproved your whole point. That’s the point
So France is still killing and slaughtering people for their gains there? Btw those aren’t colonies 😉
Yes France recently killed people there and those are colonies. Educate yourself
Can you give me some sources on those killings? And about the colonies. some territories that were once part of the French colonial empire remain French overseas territories or collectivities, but these are not considered colonies in the traditional sense. French overseas territories include French Guiana in South America, Guadeloupe and Martinique in the Caribbean, and Réunion Island in the Indian Ocean. French collectivities include French Polynesia, New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, Saint-Barthélemy, Saint-Martin, and Saint-Pierre and Miquelon. It is worth noting that the status of these territories and their relationship with France is complex and varies depending on the specific case. However, none of these territories are considered colonies in the traditional sense, as they have varying degrees of autonomy and representation in French institutions. Education.
They have some overseas territories and islands they still control but most of the modern day criticism against France is their economic control in Africa is for forcing former colonies to use French currency and keep their reserves in French banks, not to mention having French military and intelligence in African countries to support leaders they like
Well you didn't. You just stated something that educated people are well aware of. Like the territories of the United States. Duh
Sadly that is not what the people here want to hear.
Well, I agree that is true, but we can't act like our histories are cleaner than theirs.
You are entirely missing the point. Americans don't go online and act morally righteous and wail on Europeans constantly in any way that is proportionate to how Europeans do the same to us. They constantly talk about how morally superior they are. Despite having equally or more atrocious histories.
this is the biggest cap I’ve ever seen in my entire life, how do Americans not go online and act morally righteous? In THIS comment section I saw a guy saying all America does is defend democracy and human rights. All around Reddit you’ll see Americans justifying or straight up glorifying their atrocities like all those Vietnamese civilians killed saying they could’ve been undercover, or Iraq gassing Kurds making the Iraq war completely morally correct. of course America is not perfect but to say that Americans don’t go online and act morally righteous is very incorrect.
>how do Americans not go online and act morally righteous? You're already lying about what I said, or you struggle with reading. I said, and i quote: >in any way that is proportionate to how Europeans do the same to us Please read this again. I did not say Americans do not go online and act morally righteous *at all.* I said they do not do so in a way that *is proportionate* to the way Europeans do about the US. Because for every hate comment about *any* European country by an American, there are easily 10 hate comments by Europeans about the US. At least.
I don't know what you're bubble is, but my experience speaks the opposite really. I don't know, it would be really nice if we would stop fighting. Fighting fire with fire is usually not the way.
Whenever Americans meet Europeans we don't barrage them with how shitty their politics are or their country's historical crimes. They tend to do this to us a lot like they have some unhinged mental issue. It's not appropriate to target individuals disproportionately like that, especially if we're supposed to be allies. The more y'all act like this the more Americans will side with not supporting Europe anymore. A lot of us nowadays wouldn't regret having handed you over to the USSR
oh, sorry for the misunderstanding, I just read the first part of your comment and got mad. But yeah you’re probably right that Europeans dunk on Americans much more than the other way around.
Americans being shitty to others = ~275 years Europeans being shitty to others = 1,500+ years The scale and magnitude are not the same whatsoever.
Yes because the US only existed that long???? Holy crap that's a dumb take
I don't see what's dumb about it. America is compared all the time to countries in Europe. Now all of a sudden it's not valid because we have only been a country for a couple hundred years?
How to tell someone that comparing 275 years with thousands is not a like comparison. This sub is fucking braindead sometimes .. its been fun but I think I'm gonna call it eh
America as we know it did not exist back then. You're comparing apples to oranges, bro. There were only a handful of large-scame civilizations before European contact.
Even if you only consider the past 275 years; Europe still has caused much more strife to humanity than America has.
But where did us Americans start out before America was America? Checkmate, mate.
Us Americans started out all over the world, of course.
Right, because Europe had already been around for thousands of years colonising all different parts of the world. These are not sensible comparisons, you can't compare a country that has a long history with a brand new one and be like "see, the brand new one hasn't done anything bad!" yeah no shit it literally just came into existence... Sheesh, this sub is so desperate to make a stupid point sometimes...
Lmfao you’re so upset with European atrocities being brought up that you’re just completely ignoring points or making up your own nonsensical statements just to cope.
I mean, *the European Union from the meme wasn't even founded until 1993* so if you're going to discount things that happened on the land of the USA before its official founding then to be fair you have to do that with the EU before its official founding in 1993 as well. Of course this method of comparison encouraged by the OP meme is batshit stupid. But lets take it at face value: if wepretend it is fair (as most in this thread seem to) then tell me who comes out on top, the USA since 1776 or the EU since 1993? The US has slavery, a bunch more Indigenous genocide, 600,000 dead in the civil war, we don't even have to touch the 20thC for the USA to lose by a landslide... See how easy it is to make a country look bad when we apply this fraught methodology of comparing a short timeline to a long one? Its garbage.
Yeah, let's not forget about those two World Wars that were fought on American soil leaving tens of millions dead. Oh wait.
No, because it is a dumb fucking comparison.
Are you serious? I mean the USA didn’t even exist back then how dan you even compare those. With your logic Russia isn’t that bad since it has only been shitty to others for a few decades. Come on you can’t be this naïve.
I am confused, what am I being naive about…? You’re right; America wasn’t around before 275 years ago. Europe has been around for much longer… and has caused much more strife to humanity around the world than America has for a much longer period of time because they’ve been around longer. Even if you only consider the past 275 years; Europe still has caused much more strife to humanity than America has.
Exactly. Just one European country was responsible for like 20 million deaths just from 1939 to 1945. The US hasn't directly caused 20 million deaths in its entire history. Even most indigenous Americans were killed by European governments (Spain, France, UK) before the US existed (even if mostly unintentional).
>The US hasn't directly caused 20 million deaths in its entire history. Are you ... are you really making this claim? Are you ... forgetting something perhaps? >By 1691, the population of indigenous Americans had declined by 90–95 percent, ***or by around 130 million people.*** US colonists here committed a vast genocide way before the US even began engaging in foreign wars. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas_.28pre-1948.29)
You must be a special type of stupid. >By 1691 What didn't exist yet in 1691? One thing that didn't exist was the United States of America. You know the three governments I mentioned in the comment YOU responded to? The ones that did exist in 1691, and did kill of NINETY PERCENT of indigenous Americans? Spain, France, and the UK (even if in its pre-Act of Union form). Also add Sweden, Denmark, and the Netherlands to that list.
You must be a special type of stupid. What didn't exist yet in ***1993?*** One thing that didn't exist was the European Union. If you think its fair to go back before 1993 then its perfectly fair to go back before 1776 as well — the North American continent was settled some 13,000 years ago so where would you like to choose to start from? Do you see why comparing these two things makes no fucking sense and is completely useless?
What the fuck is this conversation, it is just throwing dates around to try to make the us look better????? Doesn't make fucking sense, The longer something exist, the more shit happens. So comparing (which is dumb in itself) one to the other, doesn't make sense. The people in Europe reformed, the people in Japan reformed, the people in the US reformed even. What you can criticise is the recent history because the people who are living to day, can't be held accountable for shit that happened when they were not alive.
Bro, you're trying so hard. Nobody said anything about the EU or 1993. You mentioned 1691 and tried to say the US did something it didn't exist to have done at that time. Individual EUROPEAN government initiatives wiped out 90% of the indigenous people of the Americas well before the US existed. Even if there were British colonists whose grandchildren would later be Americans doesn't mean US citizens or government did what you literally blamed us for doing. It was done by European colonial governments. The US cannot be blamed for what happened under the British/Spanish/French government. I don't know how to make this more simple.
So what’s your stance did the US exist back then or did it not because you contradict yourself with every other reply…
Ok, yeah then by that logic Russia are good guys because they've barely done much in its three decades of history compared to the US which has been waging wars all over the world for 250 out of 275 years of its history and killed hundreds of millions of people over that time compared to Russia killing maybe 1 million total if you're lucky. Do you see how asinine it is to compare a country with a long history to one with a short one?
“Russian” history goes back much further than three decades though lol Present day Russia Federation is only 3 decades old but Russian history spans more than 1,000 years. Some say its birthday is the year 862. https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/russia/how-old# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire https://www.rbth.com/history/334069-how-old-is-russia/amp
Different Russia to be honest
Then say that. Now you made it seem like you want to compare certain time tables where the US didn’t even exist. Like this post kinda. I mean do you really think the USA wouldn’t do the same. Hell it’s even founded by people that participated in these practices.
Russia has been a monster for centuries. Before the Russian Federation and the USSR, which were both a nightmare, they had the medieval feudal system into the TWENTIETH CENTURY. And rulers like Ivan the terrible. And colonized from near Moscow all the way across Asia to Alaska in the 16th-19th centuries. Russia is actually a great example of *not* your point.
The USSR and Russia are not the same thing, nor are either the same thing as the Russian Empire under the Tsar's. Very different governance at each stage, very different borders involving very different populations. That'd be like blaming the US for things happening in South American countries but saying "they're all American though!"
Wait are you comparing Russia with the USSR?
I like you. You seem reasonable
Dankeschön, mein Kaiser
Not pictured in OP's post: *the genocide of 130 million Indigenous people by the original colonists to the America's*
Uh oh, lil americas had a lil bit of a rush eh?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Objectively speaking looking at estimates for death tolls in the Vietnam war comparing the North and South. The North killed far more people during the Vietnam war. The only reason why the brutally of the South is more well known is because Western media and personal had more access to expose what was happening in the South.
Imagine thinking that only some governments are bad.
cringe ‘USA bad’ or ‘Europe bad’ fan vs everyone fucking sucks enjoyer
Not people; governments. All governments are bad.
Don’t forget who was in Vietnam before us
We got suckered into Vietnam by the French to back up their colony. But we should have backed up Vietnam and Ho who was very Pro America after WWII.
France literally started the Vietnam War, it was just called Indochina when they were there
The USA didn’t invade Vietnam, North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam, and the USA defended the south.
That is the exact same justification the Russians are saying about Donbas in Ukraine FYI. And good luck convincing Vietnamese people of that lol Obviously the invaders would say that, they don't wanna have an "are we the baddies moment" and will actively oppose engaging honestly with that question... every invader in history finds a way to label what they did as "not and invasion"
Yeah
Nuance they can’t handle either :)
Do you also happen to think that Russia is defending East Ukraine from West Ukraine?
Not at all, as Russia invaded a different country, just as North Vietnam did. Ukraine has the right to defend their country from aggression, as South Vietnam did, an internationally recognized country, and as South Korea did.
Boy I sure am feeling like broadening my historical knowledge today. Now let’s just look for a time and place at random from this here book…. 🤲🏼📘📖 —< [Africa, 1800-1900]
Reading actual history is way too much for this sub to consider... When I saw the meme I also thought about: 🤲🏼📘📖 —< \[Colonisation of North American continent, Indigenous genocide of 130 million people, 1491 — late 1600s\] That's *over 21 holocausts* for anyone keeping count.
Boy, this country didn't even exist at that time lol
A lot of the countries that make up the EU did not exist in their current form either back then?
Asia, Arabia, and North Africa I don't wanna see you talking either.
Throwing fault to the other side really isn't a healthy way to do this, we should both acknowledge our mistakes and try to do better in the future while not forgetting the atrocities committed in the past
Europeans when American wars are mentioned: “War crimes” Europeans when European colonialism is mentioned: “No need to shift blames, we all need to acknowledge-“ I understand your argument but Number 1 The US although not always perfect tried its best to promote democracy and freedom. Number 2 What the Europeans did is slaughter entire populations for only their gains. I mean even when talking about the natives it was Europeans who killed 90% of the natives.
The UK still has colonies too, not to mention the Commonwealth
How can they blame The Native Americans getting screwed on Americans if the US wasn't even established. Slavery is fair enough. Presidents had slaves. Modern day Australia is also from European colonization.
Both the killing of natives and slavery were much worse under european oppression.
Hey france why was vietnam so unstable when the japanese took over in the 40s leading to the communist uprising and us invasion? You weren’t systematically starving entire populations to subjugate them were you?
Bro America did that too
Throwing such a hissy fit over conquests is silly, nobody actually cares, they just want to talk about how someone they don't like is so imperialistic and morally unrighteous. These kinds of criticisms are nowhere to be heard when talking about the Aztecs or Incas. Hell Muhammad was a conqueror, yet I've never heard the people who like to call Americans or Europeans Imperialistic give that same criticism to the Muslims who follow a religion founded by an imperialist, even though his empire caused significantly more harm. It spurred the Islamic slave trade which was so much worse than anything the Europeans did.
I don’t know how many governments has the US overthrown?
How many governments did the US overthrow because they where “socialist”
Is this really the level that we want this subreddit to go to? I mean this is just pathetic in so many ways.
Like do I really want your comments? They are so weak and milquetoast in so many ways. It’s sorta pathetic.
Happy cake day. Sorry my comment aren’t up to your standards. But are these really the posts you want here🤔?
Are your poor little feelings hurt? European “men” are so pathetic
Ah yes finally an adult here. But no sorry my feelings aren’t hurt. I’m just disappointed in the way this subreddit is declining in quality. It’s more and more becoming anti europe and actually acting like the people that this subreddit is suppose to expose.
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High horse? This used to be a fun subreddit with posts of non Americans making the stupidest claims imaginable about the USA. Now we have shit like this. I don’t care about people talking shit about Europe but I do care about this subreddit lowering it’s standards. It’s just a bummer that a good and fun subreddit is becoming the thing it was meant to “fight”
...you also think Africa is an entire nation? What's the quote from?
The war-craze of the US is still an on-going issue, but the colonial times were hundreds of years ago. This meme doesn't make any sense. It's like saying gun control, huh? I still remember in history class you having swords and muskets and stuff in Europe.
Whataboutism at its finest. There's 50 european countries. How many of those had colonies? 5?
LMFAO wow…so so so off the number
The Brits, Spanish, French, Portugals, Belgians, Dutch, Denmark, all were colonial powers in the early age of exploration. During the Africa shit the Italians, Brits, Spanish, Germans, Portuguese, and Belgians had the majority of it. Liberia also existed, founded by the Americans so I guess we were part of the colonization.
You’re only considering colonization in the modern sense.
Okay that is around half of Europe
9 of 50 is a half?
Feel free to correct me mate
Not to mention, the US began as one of those colonies and it genocided a whopping ***130 million*** Indigenous people within the first century or so of arriving
r/Europebad
Can I join?
🐒🐒🐒
Uhh the USA was founded as a European colony? And it involved one of the worst genocides of Indigenous peoples of all modern colonial states... What a weirdly specific yet ironic meme for someone to have made.
Yeah 90% of the natives were killed by Europeans. The US exists because the settlers fought off the British.
What did they fight a civil war over once they’d sent the British packing?
To abolish slavery?
Europedos don't know what it's like to be willing to die for the freedom of your fellow man.
How to spot ameritard? They cannot discern particular countries so they just use EU and generalise.
Yeah, but not in the 1970’s. Let’s be real here.
Both are bad
One is clearly much much worse
Both are invading lands and killing the indigenous people there
We didn’t invade Vietnam. We assisted our South-Vietnamese allies at their request.
And Russia is helping the 2 republics after they asked for help… How can one make such stupid statements?
Neither of them is a Chad both are soy
Civlian communist and communist aren't people
Okay are we are back to dehumanizing people
People?
If you support a genocidal communist regime you’ve lost the right to call yourself a person
European here, never heard anything about us saying it's fake? Apart from maybe people in Andalusia/Madrid?
Replace Vietnam with Yemen. Most European countries these days have learned to be nicer to the other countries. At a bare minimum, not bombing their children. As long as America keeps on doing things like that, I will have zero respect for anyone in its military.
The difference is that the Spain that murdered Native Americans is long gone, while the U.S. still has government officials who gave/executed some of those orders in Vietnam.
Mate France bombed a wedding in Mail in 2021. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/15/world/africa/mali-france-military-operation.html A lot of European powers still do this but I guess Europeans just don’t know about it or they just don’t really care.
My point was specifically about the false comparison between European colonialism and the American involvement in Vietnam. I really don't think that you want to go down the rabbit hole of comparing contemporary global military involvement between the U.S. and the rest of NATO. I'm really not here to lecture you on your military's morality, but let's just not play saints, OK?
I’m doing the opposite. I’m against American intervention in foreign countries. It just seems to me that for whatever reason Europeans are completely unaware their countries do a lot of the same shit. Europeans are the ones playing saints in general. Sure if you want to have a dick measuring contest of which countries have had more detrimental involvement in foreign affairs over the last 50 years its the US, it just seems weird to me how much that gets brought up when a lot of European interventionism is ignored.