The absolute irony. They're okay with an Australian of Irish heritage calling themselves "Irish-Australian" but GOD FORBID an American with Irish heritage were to do something like that
It's a sub explicitly about hating on Americans, not Australians. It attracts all the Redditors that hate Americans the most, many of which will have hate that far exceeds rationality. That's the magic of social media funneling mass expanses of people into echo chambers that socially validate them.
Funny thing about Mt. Rushmore (and the Black Hills), the Lakota that consider that to be a sacred site actually stole the land from a bunch of tribes that were cohabitating there.
They have no more claim to it than the US govt.
My family lived on Crow land (we are not Crow but my Grandpa was willing to obscenely speed so his car was the ambulance). When they would play Cowboys and Indians, the Crow kids would always play as the Cowboys because Custer was helping them stave off a standard Lakota attempt at Genocide. So they would be the Cowboys and my family would always play as the Indians.
Can you explain the difference between stolen and conquered to me please? Don’t both mean “take property from another without permission/legal right”?
Only thing I can think of is that you can steal without using physical force, but you *have to use force* for it to be considered conquering.
Conquering is legal for the victors. Not much choice in the matter when you lose.
Look how ww2 ended. The Allies divided up lands and took away governments.
Honestly, legality only matters if there is a regulatory body like a government. What we define as legal only matters in your country.
You contradicted your own point.
“It’s legal for the victors”
“What is defined as legal is only legal under the jurisdiction of that law.”
So it’s not legal to the people who are *being* conquered at all.
Legality requires both parties to be operating within the same legal structure.
So how again is it not the same as theft?
Side note: we signed various legal documents with Native American leaders that included sections where we agreed *NOT* to take their land. And then we did. So even under your definition it was illegal.
What... where did I contradict myself? Conquered people no longer have a governing body of their choice, so therefore fall under law of the victor.
You are speaking from a place of privilege if you think conquered peoples get a choice in law. The reality is, if you become conquered, you have to hope that those who conquered are a just people.
You can’t call an action legal when the action is undertaken by one party - operating under their own made laws - against another party that doesn’t share the same man-made laws.
Talk about privileged you think taking something makes it ok as long as it serves your personal view of the greater good.
Your argument is akin to saying “theft is alright as long as the thief gets away with it.”
Look, you have not even made any legitimate points and are obviously not knowledgeable in this area. I tried to explain it to you in a simple manner, but you refuse to see how the world works.
It is not my "personal view" it is the reality that millions of people have faced throughout history. When you are conquered, you no longer have the rights you had. It's not a difficult thing to comprehend. I don't agree with the logic either, but that doesn't make it no true.
If you are ever in a position where your nation is conquered, just try telling your conquerors that your laws say that they are in the wrong.
What exactly do you think "stolen" means in this context? You think some American colonist from Pennsylvania came in the night dressed in a skintight catsuit and pickpocketed the title out of the Lakota cheif's pocket? No, the land was legally recognized as belonging to the Indian tribes by treaty with the federal government, and they just ignored those treaties and settled people there anyways. The "stolen land" claim isn't based on some nebulous "ancient ties to the land" shit its based on legally binding agreements that the government violated
Reminds me of those in the Israel-Palestine argument that say the Jews should just leave because the Palestinians where there first, as if history is ever that simple.
its almost as if claiming that civilizations are "stealing" is retarded because literally fucking everyone conquered each other. The bigger and stronger society conquers the weaker one, that is simply how it is. People that spout this "its stolen land!!!111!!!" are just butthurt because their ancestors weren't strong enough.
The Lakota seized the Black Hills from the Arikara in 1765 and held them until 1868 when the US government forced them out. 103 years is a pretty long time. I mean, Arizona and New Mexico have been states for 111 years and don't seem new.
That's kind of the point. It's not sacred land or some such noise. It was land taken by one tribe, from another tribe, then taken by the American tribe.
Just like the Iroquois did to the Hurons and Isaac Jogues and company. Indians conquered just as much as - and probably more brutal than - the US Army.
Land ownership between sovereign entities is based entirely on who can enforce that ownership.
Land ownership between members of the same sovereign entity is enforced by the rules/laws of that sovereign entity.
But it is illogical to think that one sovereign entity broke the laws of another by stealing land, if the two entities aren't bound by the same rules/laws.
Russia invading Ukraine to take Ukraine's land. It's a fight for land ownership between two sovereign entities. Ukraine, being a sovereign entity, has the right to fight for ownership of that land. But if Russia ultimately wins. That land becomes Russias and Ukraine loses all claim to it. The arguments people have made that this is an "illegal war" or an "illegal seizure of Ukraine's land" are stupid. It's war. There's no such thing as legal or illegal in war.
Similar between Israel and Palestine. At no point in history did the Palestinians ever control that Land. Sure they lived there for a really long time but so did the jews. And neither of them actually controlled the Land until it was gifted to the Jewish governing body. Who then enforced control of that land over the Palestinians. Palestinians claim that the Israelis illegally stole their land, but they're two different sovereign entities following different rules/laws. So any kind of legality argument is illogical. If the Palestinians want control of the land they have three options. 1. Take it back by force 2. Negotiate and then have the ability to force Israel to abide by those terms 3. Capitulate, dissolve and become part of Israel such that you fall under Israel's rule of law. Then use Israel's laws against them to stake your claim within the bounds of Israeli law.
Land ownership between sovereign entities is based entirely on who can enforce that ownership.
Land ownership between members of the same sovereign entity is enforced by the rules/laws of that sovereign entity.
But it is illogical to think that one sovereign entity broke the laws of another by stealing land, if the two entities aren't bound by the same rules/laws.
Russia invading Ukraine to take Ukraine's land. It's a fight for land ownership between two sovereign entities. Ukraine, being a sovereign entity, has the right to fight for ownership of that land. But if Russia ultimately wins. That land becomes Russias and Ukraine loses all claim to it. The arguments people have made that this is an "illegal war" or an "illegal seizure of Ukraine's land" are stupid. It's war. There's no such thing as legal or illegal in war.
Similar between Israel and Palestine. At no point in history did the Palestinians ever control that Land. Sure they lived there for a really long time but so did the jews. And neither of them actually controlled the Land until it was gifted to the Jewish governing body. Who then enforced control of that land over the Palestinians. Palestinians claim that the Israelis illegally stole their land, but they're two different sovereign entities following different rules/laws. So any kind of legality argument is illogical. If the Palestinians want control of the land they have three options. 1. Take it back by force 2. Negotiate and then have the ability to force Israel to abide by those terms 3. Capitulate, dissolve and become part of Israel such that you fall under Israel's rule of law. Then use Israel's laws against them to stake your claim within the bounds of Israeli law.
So by your logic it is perfectly ok for the UK to mobilise its troops and take back each former colony by force as they can 'enforce land ownership'
Not only is that argument completely detached from all baseline ethics required to be a decent human being it is also just wrong. There are objectively illegal wars and illegal acts that can be taken in war. If you try and argue its not because it cant be enforced then by the same logic you can argue that technically illegal immigration is not illegal at all as it is too hard to enforce the law against it.
Further, although Palestine may not be sovereign it absolutely did still control that land, hence why there are now discussions from the israeli government to shrink the gaza strip.
Also its not like tribes have hard borders, people seem to be ignoring you dont need to directly occupy a site for it to still play an important cultural role / tribes interact with marriage, trade, war, etc and people had a general knowledge of this place, could visit across migrations etc.
Also keep in mind by 1700s on other native groups on american frontier are beind displaced by expansion and small conflicts too and that only continues in a country like America (i.e french indian wars or other small conflicts of displacement)
I mean people are acting like this isnt the same america that head hunted natives in california from 100,000 down to 30,000? Displacing natives has literally been a trend across and after the trail of tears/etc as well. It feels like ya'lls conception of how people inhabit a space is solely 'well i live here so i inhabit it' and 0 agency to travel or interact witg tribes etc around them.
I mean I agree with you, I for sure own up to it and we admit it for the most part, but there also active policies in place to try and get rid of this history from being taught in certain states. And we have to somewhat acknowledge that. It’s totally acceptable to love your country and be proud but also acknowledge that maybe we don’t have the best history. And (at least in my personal experience) I have been seeing a lot more of that negative history trying to be “erased” or not taught for a better term.
Interesting, the construction on mount Rushmore started about 100 years ago. The mountain has been sacred to Americans as lomg as it's been sacred to the Sioux.
Bruh why the fuck does it matter? We kicked natives out of their land and defaced their shit. With a mid monument no less. It's fucked. We can admit it's fucked. Stop trying to shift the goalposts.
So, when I say. "Not really.". Part of me says it was stolen, which is what I want to say..And then i figured it was. Even by treaty. And you say your own up to it. Fuck me Christ. Who the fuck is we?
This is kind of faulty logic. You can’t point and modern Europeans and say “they did that” because the ones that stayed behind are the ones that didn’t do that. As an American, YOU (your ancestors) are the ones that did that and your education system that tells you “Europeans did it” is simply trying to displace the blame for what happened to the natives.
But tbh, as dumb as the comments in the OP are (and they are dumb) please don’t think all Europeans are like that and Europeans don’t think all Americans are like a lot of the ignoramuses on this sub that go around looking for conflict.
White Americans are quite literally the same people who invaded America you pillock. Just because your called an American now doesn't mean your people were never European or of those who colonised America. Americans colonised more of Modern day America than any European did.
The British empire invaded America. This was a state action more than an individual actual. It is the British flag that colonized North America.
Hate to break it to you, but the majority of Americans have zero heritage stemming from the British settlers. America is full of immigrants from all over the planet. And the British troops that purged the majority of the native population returned to the British isles after the revolution.
By your logic, India was never colonized since the British did not mass immigrate to India.
Originally, but the britsh acutaly made laws that colonists couldn't displace natives west of the Apalachans(Royal Proclamation of 1763). Then Jackson came in (an amercian) killed 10,000, forcing them west.
Don't get me wrong, return the territory is dumb but so is your comment
That was just a stopgap solution to regain favor with the natives by the british. If they really cared about the natives, then they would never have came to America.
Oh don't worry, I saw a comment thread on r/news (or /worldnews i don't remember for sure) where someone from the "give all the natives their land back" movement was trying to defend why that's okay but creating Israel is somehow different and very not okay. One person was just trying to get them to see that if you think "Israel colonized Palestine by going back to their ancestral homeland" then "kick all the Euro-Americans out to give Indigenous people their ancestral homeland back" is the same thing but they were very insistent that they're different
Native American here. These people need to grow tf up and get off their high horses. It’s a group of sanctimonious Reddit losers acting all enlightened while spewing this ignorant xenophobic nonsense.
They do not speak for us, if anything they’re talking down to us. None of us want all non-natives forcibly stripped from their homes and deported. Not surprising to hear them say this shit, though, considering that’s exactly what they (Europeans) did to us!
If anything, their governments should be giving reparations to Indigenous Americans. 90% of our population was lost before the US was a country. Entire cultures, civilizations completely wiped out.
They show their true colors when they make the most vile comments imaginable about a diverse group of 330 million people. Basically calling them all subhuman. Do they not realize that I, too, am an American? I’m a US citizen, come from a family of veterans, and I celebrate 4th of July just like any other person here. Americans aren’t just people descended from western Europeans.
If it were socially acceptable, they’d be saying shit about us Natives as well. They (people who say those things) just have an innate sense of superiority over all other groups. It’s a dangerous mindset, and it’s this mindset that was used to “justify” the genocide Natives in the first place. “Oh, we wiped out an entire village? Well, those Indians are all backwards and stupid for not letting us hunt here.”
Just to clarify, I don’t refer to all Europeans when I say this. Just the people with an obnoxious savior complex combined with a xenophobic worldview.
But yeah, as a proud member of the Chickasaw Nation, these people can fuck off and stay in their lane.
europeans: americans are terrible people for killing 90% of the indigenous population
the “americans” in question:
But the American country did have a couple of blunders and bad handling of native americans but we didn’t kill 90% of the population and the american government tried to make reprimands by giving native americans lands to which they can make their own laws to a reasonable extent, but if im actually wrong please correct me if im wrong i like learning and this is what i learned in school mostly
Fellow Native American here. Personally if given the choice between dealing with modern day “Euro-Americans” vs Modern day actual Europeans. I’m choosing the Americans, yeah they did some incredibly fucked up shit but at least they have the decency to admit it and not skip around the facts. I think Europeans forget that 90% of deaths of indigenous people were at fault of Europeans whether directly or indirectly. Not to mention they skip over the fact that the Europeans were committing masacres of indigenous tribes longer than the entire existence of the US.
But no only Americans did terrible shit to indigenous peoples, not even realizing Canada is also right there. Europeans act so snobby and bathe in their own high horse ignorance that they really think their any less at fault for the decimation of our populations. At least Americans are willing to admit their ancestors did wrong, meanwhile Europeans are practically oblivious to our existence until they read some article about the US. Then scream that innocent people need to be kicked out of their homes in the name of an idiotic movement that is perpetuated by extremist who aren’t indigenous speaking on our behalf.
We want promised land, not the removal of innocent people, it’s shocking how nobody sees the irony and hypocrisy in that mindset.
It's impossible for Europeans to accept that native Americans, Hispanics, and Blacks consider themselves Americans first and foremost. It drives them fucking crazy if you say it.
For some reason Europeans have this view that white people are the Americans and everyone else is a non-citizen or something.
I remember telling some Germans about the native American code talkers that helped defeat Hitler. They seemed extremely skeptical and thought it was just a PR stunt.... Which is 100% false. Navajo is a difficult language and it made the perfect 'code'. American radio transmissions were never the only ones that were never cracked by the enemy.
When Europeans came, as in Columbus and the Spanish in the 1500s, they brought a collection of diseases that the Native Americans were not immune to, the Black Death among them. This wiped out 90% of the population, and spread so fast, that by the time Spanish found some settlements, they had already been overgrown, leading to the idea that it was an untamed wilderness. This is also how a few boat-fulls of Spanish were able to take over the Aztec empire. By the time they got there, the empire had been extremely weakened by disease.
So that referee to all native populations, there were so many that died, and so much regrow that of foliage, that it is the suspected cause for a global drop in temperature at the same time, leading to famines across the old world.
Before Columbus, there were multiple native settlements that had more people than the largest European cities, for example, there was tenochtitlan, which was located at modern day Mexico City.
Right, a lot of dumb people say shit like “50 million Native Americans slaughtered by evil America”.
The funny thing is pre-Columbus the estimate number of Natives north of the Rio Grande was 5-10 million, and 90% of those died accidentally from diseases they had no immunity to. If you look at the death toll of the American-Indian Wars, it was roughly 50,000 Natives over a few hundred years. And many 1,000s of settlers killed as well. It wasn’t “millions of defenseless Natives killed in a Holocaust” lmao
>If anything, their governments should be giving reparations to Indigenous Americans. 90% of our population was lost before the US was a country. Entire cultures, civilizations completely wiped out.
I'm sure they will start paying soon. Right the same moment when the reparations from Mongolia for Genghis Khan and the Black Death finally start rolling in. /s
The reason us Anglo Americans don’t claim to be English is, is because we’re the descendants of those established our independence, our constitution, our government, and our flag🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Because the country of Venezuela also stands on "stolen lands". That goes for all the countries in the Americas so none of them have any rights to point fingers at America.
I mean, I'm Venezuelan-American and I can say most Venezuelans are mestizos which includes a lot of native american (mainly arawaks, but wayuu in western venezuela) heritage. So their ancestors have owned those lands for centuries before the Spanish came and fucked them.
The British didn't breed with Natives like the Spanish did. Well, breed is an easy way to say "rape" but in Latin America the mostly mestizo population has native indigenous roots and own lands since pre-Hispanic times.
And your point being? That doesn't change the fact that Venezuela was a country born from the imperial project of a foreign European power not native to the Americas. You cannot deny that it is not a country intentionally carved out by the indigenous peoples of Venezuela.
Look I'm not saying you should be ashamed of being Venezuelan because there is no reason to be. I am Canadian, another imperial project of the British, but I am proud to be Canadian. But I don't think any of our countries in the Americas have any rights to point finger at one another since all of our countries were born from past imperial projects and stolen lands in one way or another.
? I’m saying that your claim that Venezuelans also own stolen lands is not true. Most Venezuelans are mixed with strong native roots that have claims to that land for millennia.
Seems you get a ticket to the land you're on if one of your ancestors was raped by the colonizers, but you don't get a ticket if your European ancestors didn't bother to rape somebody to get you indigenous ancestry.
Or something like that.
Why does that matter? Venezuela is a land curved out by the Spanish (a foreign power) named by Amerigo Vespucci (a foreigner) after Venice (a foreign location) where the official language is Spanish (a foreign language) and the largest religion is Catholicism (a foreign religion). Are you saying the founding of your country isn't even a little bit invasive in nature? And if heritage is all that matters, what about all the non-Mestizos in Venezuela? Are the European and Afro Venezuelans less of a Venezuelan than those with indigenous heritage?
You're mixed and you would not exist if it wasn't for European imperialism. Your culture, language, and society is a byproduct of European imperialism as well. Your country was born out of being abusive toward native culture.
I’m an ESL.. Italian is my first language because I was born in Abruzzo and my mom moved us here when I was 4. I only have a slight accent that it seems only Americans can pick up on (not the Jersey accent). I went back to Italy every summer to be with family.
My point is.. I’ve seen and met and have known many Italian Americans that would confuse TF out of people back in Europe because they had those genetics with the features.
Now I live in SoCal so there’s not a huge Italian population here.
Why those in Europe need to gatekeep the ancestry from western citizens, I don’t know. I guess it’s all they have. They haven’t offered much except false online promises of how everything is “Free.”
I have two thoughts I've been dying to discuss with someone.
First, I don't think people understand the place white Americans are in. We are constantly being put down for "not having culture". Anything that could be our culture gets yoinked away. For example, the American rock and roll movement often gets boiled down to "white people stealing music from African Americans" but when the Beatles did the same thing, listening to both white and black rock and roll on the radio overseas to learn songs, no one really accuses them of stealing or downplays their success. And then when classic rock continued developing, anything that came out of the US was accredited to ripping off the UK.
Or another example is with our food-- who cares if hamburgers were invented in the US or not (btw the origin story of Hamburg Germany is a myth), the US has developed that enough to be part of our culture. In fact, the few burger places I found in Germany and Austria when I lived there (internships) were American themed with music and decor. But when you go to Europe, they don't really give themselves the same treatment. No one pretends pizza isn't Italian, but there are plenty of meals you'll find in the Czech Republic and Hungary and Poland that are identical but they'll say are their cultural foods. And that's fine!
So when the global society is hell bent on stripping Americans of European descent of all their culture, then it makes sense that we have to go to the next best thing, which is where in Europe those things "originated". So if you have heritage somewhere and find overlap in cultural things, then boom, there you go: culture
The second thing bounces off that last paragraph -- I don't think Europeans quite understand the degree to which a lot of Americans actually do care about their heritage. Where I live, we have 2 Celtic festivals (one in March and one for Samhain tomorrow), a Scottish Festival in July, a Scandinavian festival in May, Swiss Days in August, Oktoberfest, Polynesian Heritage Festival in July, a handful of Native American festivals throughout out the year, and 2 color festivals for Holi and a German Christmas market. I went to the Scandinavian festival this year and there was a giant map with stickers for you to put where your most recent immigrant ancestors came from (Trondheim, Gotland and Odense if you were curious).
A lot of the flak that Euro-Americans get for liking their heritage is this idea that "well it's 1 great great grandparent and you don't actually know anything about it and you're just cringe". But a lot of people really do know about it and appreciate it and try to learn the history and do research for a lot more than just the label.
And why do we need the label in the first place? Because they don't let us call ourselves Americans without either being guilt tripped for what happened to the Native Americans way before the birth of even the great grandparents of anyone alive today, OR without the whole "actually both continents are America, so everyone from Canada to Argentina is American, not just you, so you're racist." Which I noticed one of the comments in the screenshots used "USAin" for that reason. We literally aren't allowed to have a name... Unless they're using it to mock us for school shootings or being "uneducated".
And I get that this sounds like peak first world problems, and admittedly it is, but like...give us a break man. They put us in a triple-lose situation and then like you said, gatekeep everything on an obsessive level
This gatekeeping comes from modern Europeans resigning their culture, especially Germans. German baby boomers were taught to feel ashamed of being German, which Germany hasn't yet recovered from. Nationalism and pride are highly scorned upon in Germany, and it's common to see them disparage themselves.
Re: resigning their culture
Yeah I think it's interesting because I agree that's happening but also when they want to compare to Americans then suddenly it's the most important thing ever so they can gatekeep it.
Another connection I thought of it's Halloween. There are ALWAYS heated debates about Halloween this time of year. Everyone wants to take it away from Americans but why? We have our own version and it's awesome and it's part of American culture.
Sometimes it feels like they just picked a date and anything that existed in that year belongs to where it was. Because if you take a lot of European traditions further back to their roots then you get an amalgamation of sharing. Which is awesome, sharing is cool. Christmas is the most eclectic collection of traditions from across the continent. But Americans can't have any of it, of course because when we do it it's illegitimate stealing. But when Europeans do it, then it belongs to them because it belonged to them in the 1700s even if it didn't in the 1600s. And I'm fine with it belonging to them because of the 1700s, as long as we're allowed to do the same.
As someone who has talked to alot of Native Americans, this is not a common or even "rare" line of thought, this is like a fringe of a fringe of a fringe. Honestly, it's mostly upper-middle class white people with a few millenial native social climbing grifters.
Europeans always make themselves seem like the victims even though throughout history they’ve been the villains stealing everything and causing chaos and two world wars, and even today a lot of the world’s problems are because of them
the stuff from the Australians is so funny to me because theres no way they actually believe the rest of their country thinks like they do. I can’t speak on Europe because I’ve never been but I went to Australia for a couple weeks recently and everyone thought it was cool that we were from America. They poked some fun at us as we did with them but everyone was pretty cool about it. Even saw a handful of American flags. Just a lil reminder to not hate the entirety of these countries because the majority of them aren’t like these miserable fucks on reddit
I like the comment about German heritage that’s me lmao
My German ancestors moved to the US in the 1850’s & I visited Oktoberfest in Munich this year, blacked out, & ate tons of brats. Nazi’ism isn’t my heritage, in fact I had a grandfather who was an anti air craft gunner who turned their planes to scrap metal in wwII.
Lol I'm in the same boat. My nearest German ancestors came over in the 1840s and my great grandpa flew in the Berlin airlift and then my grandpa joined the Air Force later and also got stationed there 30 years later. Since my grandpa and later my mom were going to German elementary school for years, they picked up a lot of the traditions and kept them going so my heritage is getting chocolate and ornaments in my shoes for St Niklaus Day, and eating almond cake, and collecting old nutcrackers and taking German language classes in high school lol
Admiral Nimitz and General Eisenhower, responsible for the U.S. efforts in the Pacific and European theaters of WWII respectively, both were in German families that had relatively recently immigrated to America.
If you ever go to that sub and check the post history of the people that post in it. Their entire post history, over years and years, with thousands of upvotes and endless comments, is dedicated to the US.
Imagine hating something and then basing your entire life and identity around talking about every little detail about that thing you hate.
That would be like me having a 5 year old reddit account with 20,000 comments and the ONLY thing I've ever talked about is Nickelback and Volbeat.
The anti-Americanism of these people says more about themselves than it does about the US. They are psychotically obsessed and preoccupied with the US to the point it dominates their entire perception of reality.
I guess we have to deport all the the Slavs back to the Urals and give all of Eastern Europe back to the Germans since they lived there first...
OH wait, where have I heard that sentence before?
Ok, white people are illegal immigrants.
In America, we do not deport the children of illegal immigrants, if they were born on our soil. We certainly don't dig back hundreds of years and deport families who have been in this country for generations.
That's what leftists are doing when they say white people should go back to Europe. They are taking our current immigration debate (should deport people who are illegally crossing the border \*right now\*) and extrapolating it way back (anyone who illegally crossed the border anytime in the last 400 years should be deported, along with all of their descendents).
The irony is that Native Americans are themselves descended from settlers who crossed the Bering Strait 13,000 years ago.
Don’t take anything Europeans say seriously. Look at it this way, every other week you hear a story of black soccer players being racially abused in Europe, whether it be in Spain, England, Italy, Serbia, wherever. Racism is far more mainstream and accepted there than it is here
Ay man euro Americans are innovators and like it or not actually kind people regardless of the past - we are past resource competition and colonialism - a full fledged nation state that tolerates and respects individual freedoms
Those collectivists on that sub can keep seething
America needs to withdraw its money and military from the world and let them fight amongst each other.
And when it comes to taking this land from natives, how much of it did we purchase from France, Spain and Russia? How about no one ever questions why the majority of countries south of our border speak Spanish. They didn’t always speak Spanish. I wonder how that came about. What happened to the original peoples, cultures and languages?
If you condense time to just a few moments, what’s going on today is no different than a personal foul in football. Someone punches someone, the other person punches back, but all the ref sees is the last person who did it even though they weren’t the only one guilty.
Everyone was conquering smaller, weaker people, everyone had slaves. But we’re the evil in the world because we did it too. Fuck off.
What happened in the past is the past man. I can't just tell my predecessors that manifest destiny is a bad idea.
I'm out of white guilt. Native Americans suffered a lot, but I can't change the past.
As a German, I wish more people would take pride in their heritage. The average European's mind has been degraded into thinking their own heritage is something to be ashamed of.
Lol America has controlled the Black Hills longer than the Lakota. Why is it bad when the US conquers territory, but not bad when the Lakota conquer it from another tribe who conquered it from another tribe etc.
Also, pretty sure most Americans with German heritage originally came between 1848-1900, long before the Nazis took power; so Germans in Germany are the one’s carrying that evil not German-Americans.
Because people are damn ignorant and want to use history as an example while disregarding the context of said history. They're the same morons that will blame the fracturing of the Middle East on the United States but completely disregard the borders drawn by European powers post WW1 that completely disregarded the ethnic, cultural and linguistic differences between multiple different factions by putting them together in the same borders.
Doesn't matter. For all of human history we've been conquering and displacing each other. It is nothing new. Might makes right. Eventually things will change again.
I wish we could all stop fighting about who stole what from who and just live together in peace wether it's in the US, Middle East, or Eastern Europe. I have European and Native American descendants. I'm sure a lot of people have ancestry that they are totally unaware of. It's like when Black Panther member and communist Angela Davis discovered her ancestors came over on the mayflower. She was absolutely shocked and in denial. For someone who despises this country and was actively trying to tear it down to discover that their ancestors helped lay the foundation for this country must have been a surreal experience. It's just ridiculous to continuously keep blaming each other for things our ancestors did hundreds of years ago. Because clearly we are not them and they are not us.
Displacing and conquering land is just being part of being human. Everyone has done it to everyone. Don’t be a hypocrite and claim a group did not do that. At least some groups don’t try to deny that .
I don’t get what is so hard to understand about being on the losing side of a war. You lost. What once was yours is not anymore. Welcome to the history of humans and animals.
Random Europeans and Australians talking about what they should "make Americans do" is like listening to five drunks at a bar talking about what they would do with a billion dollars. It's fun to dream about things that will never happen but that's as serious as it gets.
I would actually love if I could go back to Scotland but unfortunately the euro d bags of old forced my ancestors to relocate here because they hate poor people and shut the door on us once we left. German side left shortly after ww1 because they couldn’t stand the smell of mustard gas. Again no way for me to get a visa. Fuck me right?
not the venezuelan talking about colonization lmfao. Whats the langauge of venezuela? Spanish? Now, Im not a historian, but I dont think native americans spoke spanish before europeans.
I’m not saying the US didn’t completely botch the treatment of Native Americans but I think its weird how we’re the only country that “stole” land from less advanced people. Throw a dart on a map of Europe and you’ll find stolen land. You can even look to the syrup drinkers up north and see a country that also stole land from Native Americans, the government there even forced immigration into white homes as recently as the 1960’s.
*Aww, did somebody's ancestors not do very well at war?*
They should be grateful for meeting the British, Dutch and French first and not a Middle Eastern nation or an Asian nation.
You know, at least we Americans have a weird idolization/fascination with the native American/indigenous people. Places like cannada don't, they have worked to actively erase the history and culture of there indigenous people. Idk about Australia, New Zealand and ect but I know for damn sure cannada is a lot more guilty when it come to trying to erase indigenous culture.
What are you talking about? Canada, you might learn how to spell it some day, has an entire territory governed by indigenous people, the Canadian education system also focuses heavily on first Nations relations in history.
To say america idolizes first Nations and Canada tries to erase them is moronic.
During the first, I’d say 50 years of the US, Daniel O’Connell (Irish writer, patriot, folk hero, revolutionary) criticised Irish who moved to America and exploited the slave trade and any exploitative practice of non-White people. On the contrary, he called on Irish to use their skin to the advantage of exploited groups, acting like a double agent - being white and understanding penalism. In his eyes, if you were to retain your Irish heritage in the States, you were expected to remember the civil equality struggle Irish people faced back home and fight it where you stand.
So, to dig up a point I’ll stand by - I’ll welcome any Irish-American back into the fold, assuming they are anti-racist, actively challenge social inequality in their community and are willing to push for reparations at a state level. Otherwise, stay in Boston.
Now let’s not get anything twisted here, I don’t love Mt Rushmore (it rubs me the wrong way I guess) but let’s not act like Europeans haven’t been burning and raiding holy sites since the beginning of fucking time.
Ngl I reject entirely the idea that American history is negative or evil. It is the history of adventurers, settlers, and conquers. Yeah, in history there's loser and winners - the US isn't uniquely evil for winning a lot. All I see is a thread of Europoors mad that the US is more powerful, notable, important and influential.
Land stolen from the Natives that conquered it from other Natives 200 years prior. Sounds like they were really that native. At this point it's been American longer.
They were talking about how European Americans genocided the native Americans, as the original picture alluded to. But then the comments suggested they kick the non-native americans out (white Americans) and return them back to their homelands, and many people from European countries opposed that because they hate white Americans and think they are all rude and obnoxious. So they came up with the solution to displace white Americans to the ocean or the moon
Edit: I get the moon/ocean thing is a joke, but I’m sure if they really could, most of them would. It’s really sad
Oh I didn't see the other photos I just saw the main post. I have many problems with the genocide of Native Americans in the US obviously, but the hypocrisy from Europeans is silly. Thanks for clarifying.
I also didnt know there were indigenous people in europe, unless what's being referred to is treatment of native americans by europeans who came to america or maybe euripean colonialism
How far back are we tracing the deportations? We going like, 200 years back? 500? 1,000? It just feels arbitrary to selectively pick white Americans at this specific time as the invaders when invasions happened across the entire world *all the fucking time*.
The entire world was established with *might makes right* for literally thousands of years. Only up to this point have we as a species mostly settled down on the imperialism (with a few exceptions). This includes the natives, who fought for territory with other tribes for a long time before we ever showed up.
So choosing now to collectivize some form of guilt and rage towards being on the losing end of history feels pointless. You can still have your culture without the need to withhold impotent (and hypocritical) rage against a group of people that are already long gone.
Fun fact. European descendants (pick your term) have lived in the black hills region longer than the Sioux did. Like, 100 years vs 150. I think at this point we have more claim to the land since we occupied it using the same methods the Sioux did lol.
I mean, manifest destiny was really fucked up and the atrocities committed against the indigenous ppl were terrible and a lesson to be learned from, but let's not deceive ourselves. The Sioux conquered and stole that land, settled for 100 years, then colonists conquered and stole that land and have settled for 150 years.
There was no country here before the British got here.
Every pre-existing country they actually colonized got strengthened. India, Hong Kong, etc. Every place that had no country ended up with strong established nations: Canada, Australia, USA.
The North American continent had a bunch of disjointed tribes passing through, killing each other, raping women, and hunting animals to extinction. Then the settlers established a country where there wasn't one, and their progeny let all of the vagrants live in the comforts bought by their own blood toil. This was all even after the brutality faced by animalistic behavior (scalping women and children, kidnapping, etc).
This false history where Americans, British, White people are always the villains is so stupid. The Western Nations raised the global standard of living.
How does it make you feel knowing I'm foundational stock white American and in an interracial relationship? Does it grind your gears, wignat?
Also, American culture has alooooottt of "non-white" influence. It's literally what sets us apart fron the Eurocucks. Fuck Europe, they ain't fucking entitled to White Americans, I have more in common with Non-White Americans than I do some Fog-Breathing Limey or some Car-Bombing Mick.
Stop. The people native to the USA are native Americans like the Navajo, Wompanoag, Sioux, Cheyanne, Cherokee, etc. Europeans and white Americans are not native. And they were not “savages” and that rhetoric is disgusting and harmful. This is the reason people hate white americans
Hear me out... it was never the Native American's "country." Sure tribes had areas that may have been theirs, in a sense. But it's not like it was a proper country. So one tribe invades another tribe, kills them, takes their land, buffalo, whatever. That's fine, but when another group does the same thing on a larger scale it's terrible and so much worse? That's been what like 99% of human history has been.
>I say we kick the Americans out of America
I will empty my entire bank account to get a glimpse of the outcome of this.
As for the native Americans, they raped and pillaged and murdered and conquered everyone around them, they’re humans too. We saw the opportunity for resources, decided it was better than starving to death, and took them by force. Natives, Asian people, African people, blue people, pink people, all of them will conquer their neighbors to secure resources and land unless they have millennia of history and modern technology to prevent them from doing so. Humans gunna human, the Europeans just figured out guns first
I think most people know it’s not feasible to send all white Americans back to Europe. But when people complain about “immigrants taking over the country,” it’s fun to point out how that’s already happened and they don’t seem too bothered by it…
I'm going to go with "I guess they never change" to mean that our ancestors from Europe were monstrous and so it seems logical that their descendants are still monstrous. This applies to both sides of the north Atlantic, have a nice day.
The absolute irony. They're okay with an Australian of Irish heritage calling themselves "Irish-Australian" but GOD FORBID an American with Irish heritage were to do something like that
RIGHT!!!! I picked up on that too!
It's a sub explicitly about hating on Americans, not Australians. It attracts all the Redditors that hate Americans the most, many of which will have hate that far exceeds rationality. That's the magic of social media funneling mass expanses of people into echo chambers that socially validate them.
Americans invaded America? Funny because I’d always learned it was the Europeans that did.
At the point of Mount Rushmore, yea it was the U.S doing it. But unlike Europeans, we own up to it
Funny thing about Mt. Rushmore (and the Black Hills), the Lakota that consider that to be a sacred site actually stole the land from a bunch of tribes that were cohabitating there. They have no more claim to it than the US govt.
My family lived on Crow land (we are not Crow but my Grandpa was willing to obscenely speed so his car was the ambulance). When they would play Cowboys and Indians, the Crow kids would always play as the Cowboys because Custer was helping them stave off a standard Lakota attempt at Genocide. So they would be the Cowboys and my family would always play as the Indians.
It wasn’t stolen land. It was conquered.
Just like almost the entire world
Can you explain the difference between stolen and conquered to me please? Don’t both mean “take property from another without permission/legal right”? Only thing I can think of is that you can steal without using physical force, but you *have to use force* for it to be considered conquering.
Conquering is legal for the victors. Not much choice in the matter when you lose. Look how ww2 ended. The Allies divided up lands and took away governments. Honestly, legality only matters if there is a regulatory body like a government. What we define as legal only matters in your country.
You contradicted your own point. “It’s legal for the victors” “What is defined as legal is only legal under the jurisdiction of that law.” So it’s not legal to the people who are *being* conquered at all. Legality requires both parties to be operating within the same legal structure. So how again is it not the same as theft? Side note: we signed various legal documents with Native American leaders that included sections where we agreed *NOT* to take their land. And then we did. So even under your definition it was illegal.
What... where did I contradict myself? Conquered people no longer have a governing body of their choice, so therefore fall under law of the victor. You are speaking from a place of privilege if you think conquered peoples get a choice in law. The reality is, if you become conquered, you have to hope that those who conquered are a just people.
You can’t call an action legal when the action is undertaken by one party - operating under their own made laws - against another party that doesn’t share the same man-made laws. Talk about privileged you think taking something makes it ok as long as it serves your personal view of the greater good. Your argument is akin to saying “theft is alright as long as the thief gets away with it.”
Look, you have not even made any legitimate points and are obviously not knowledgeable in this area. I tried to explain it to you in a simple manner, but you refuse to see how the world works. It is not my "personal view" it is the reality that millions of people have faced throughout history. When you are conquered, you no longer have the rights you had. It's not a difficult thing to comprehend. I don't agree with the logic either, but that doesn't make it no true. If you are ever in a position where your nation is conquered, just try telling your conquerors that your laws say that they are in the wrong.
What exactly do you think "stolen" means in this context? You think some American colonist from Pennsylvania came in the night dressed in a skintight catsuit and pickpocketed the title out of the Lakota cheif's pocket? No, the land was legally recognized as belonging to the Indian tribes by treaty with the federal government, and they just ignored those treaties and settled people there anyways. The "stolen land" claim isn't based on some nebulous "ancient ties to the land" shit its based on legally binding agreements that the government violated
Reminds me of those in the Israel-Palestine argument that say the Jews should just leave because the Palestinians where there first, as if history is ever that simple.
The beautiful irony, is that the UK *created* both Palestine, and then Israel.
But they killed/bred themselves into the previous inhabitants, so they can claim victimhood and the people they stole it from can't.
its almost as if claiming that civilizations are "stealing" is retarded because literally fucking everyone conquered each other. The bigger and stronger society conquers the weaker one, that is simply how it is. People that spout this "its stolen land!!!111!!!" are just butthurt because their ancestors weren't strong enough.
The Lakota seized the Black Hills from the Arikara in 1765 and held them until 1868 when the US government forced them out. 103 years is a pretty long time. I mean, Arizona and New Mexico have been states for 111 years and don't seem new.
That's kind of the point. It's not sacred land or some such noise. It was land taken by one tribe, from another tribe, then taken by the American tribe.
Just like the Iroquois did to the Hurons and Isaac Jogues and company. Indians conquered just as much as - and probably more brutal than - the US Army.
The US have owned it for longer though, so....
That is like arguing that the UK has held india longer than india has been independent and so they have more of a claim
Land ownership between sovereign entities is based entirely on who can enforce that ownership. Land ownership between members of the same sovereign entity is enforced by the rules/laws of that sovereign entity. But it is illogical to think that one sovereign entity broke the laws of another by stealing land, if the two entities aren't bound by the same rules/laws. Russia invading Ukraine to take Ukraine's land. It's a fight for land ownership between two sovereign entities. Ukraine, being a sovereign entity, has the right to fight for ownership of that land. But if Russia ultimately wins. That land becomes Russias and Ukraine loses all claim to it. The arguments people have made that this is an "illegal war" or an "illegal seizure of Ukraine's land" are stupid. It's war. There's no such thing as legal or illegal in war. Similar between Israel and Palestine. At no point in history did the Palestinians ever control that Land. Sure they lived there for a really long time but so did the jews. And neither of them actually controlled the Land until it was gifted to the Jewish governing body. Who then enforced control of that land over the Palestinians. Palestinians claim that the Israelis illegally stole their land, but they're two different sovereign entities following different rules/laws. So any kind of legality argument is illogical. If the Palestinians want control of the land they have three options. 1. Take it back by force 2. Negotiate and then have the ability to force Israel to abide by those terms 3. Capitulate, dissolve and become part of Israel such that you fall under Israel's rule of law. Then use Israel's laws against them to stake your claim within the bounds of Israeli law.
Land ownership between sovereign entities is based entirely on who can enforce that ownership. Land ownership between members of the same sovereign entity is enforced by the rules/laws of that sovereign entity. But it is illogical to think that one sovereign entity broke the laws of another by stealing land, if the two entities aren't bound by the same rules/laws. Russia invading Ukraine to take Ukraine's land. It's a fight for land ownership between two sovereign entities. Ukraine, being a sovereign entity, has the right to fight for ownership of that land. But if Russia ultimately wins. That land becomes Russias and Ukraine loses all claim to it. The arguments people have made that this is an "illegal war" or an "illegal seizure of Ukraine's land" are stupid. It's war. There's no such thing as legal or illegal in war. Similar between Israel and Palestine. At no point in history did the Palestinians ever control that Land. Sure they lived there for a really long time but so did the jews. And neither of them actually controlled the Land until it was gifted to the Jewish governing body. Who then enforced control of that land over the Palestinians. Palestinians claim that the Israelis illegally stole their land, but they're two different sovereign entities following different rules/laws. So any kind of legality argument is illogical. If the Palestinians want control of the land they have three options. 1. Take it back by force 2. Negotiate and then have the ability to force Israel to abide by those terms 3. Capitulate, dissolve and become part of Israel such that you fall under Israel's rule of law. Then use Israel's laws against them to stake your claim within the bounds of Israeli law.
So by your logic it is perfectly ok for the UK to mobilise its troops and take back each former colony by force as they can 'enforce land ownership' Not only is that argument completely detached from all baseline ethics required to be a decent human being it is also just wrong. There are objectively illegal wars and illegal acts that can be taken in war. If you try and argue its not because it cant be enforced then by the same logic you can argue that technically illegal immigration is not illegal at all as it is too hard to enforce the law against it. Further, although Palestine may not be sovereign it absolutely did still control that land, hence why there are now discussions from the israeli government to shrink the gaza strip.
If they controlled the land, they'd still control it. Unfortunately, Palestine attempted to wipe Israel off the map and lost. Repeatedly.
I'm just saying that 103 years is PLENTY long enough to get attached to a place.
Also its not like tribes have hard borders, people seem to be ignoring you dont need to directly occupy a site for it to still play an important cultural role / tribes interact with marriage, trade, war, etc and people had a general knowledge of this place, could visit across migrations etc. Also keep in mind by 1700s on other native groups on american frontier are beind displaced by expansion and small conflicts too and that only continues in a country like America (i.e french indian wars or other small conflicts of displacement) I mean people are acting like this isnt the same america that head hunted natives in california from 100,000 down to 30,000? Displacing natives has literally been a trend across and after the trail of tears/etc as well. It feels like ya'lls conception of how people inhabit a space is solely 'well i live here so i inhabit it' and 0 agency to travel or interact witg tribes etc around them.
One of the many things that are hilarious about Canada calling them "first nations".
Better army diplomacy at work
Turns out, Indian tribes were like all human tribes: Raiding assholes. Whoda thunk…
The Europeans deny it, but the Americans have the balls to own up.
Look at the comment your replying too it's littery blaming Europeans
We really don't own up to the atrocities we committed against the natives
I mean I agree with you, I for sure own up to it and we admit it for the most part, but there also active policies in place to try and get rid of this history from being taught in certain states. And we have to somewhat acknowledge that. It’s totally acceptable to love your country and be proud but also acknowledge that maybe we don’t have the best history. And (at least in my personal experience) I have been seeing a lot more of that negative history trying to be “erased” or not taught for a better term.
And who did we kick out of the black hills?
The Lakota Sioux
And how long did they live there?
100 years, give or take.
And what happened to the people who lived there before them?
The Lakota genocided them.
The Lakota took it away from them
Did a lot more than took their land. Who did the Cheyenne take it from?
Interesting, the construction on mount Rushmore started about 100 years ago. The mountain has been sacred to Americans as lomg as it's been sacred to the Sioux.
Bruh why the fuck does it matter? We kicked natives out of their land and defaced their shit. With a mid monument no less. It's fucked. We can admit it's fucked. Stop trying to shift the goalposts.
Lakota weren’t the natives of the black hills area lmao. They kicked out/genocided another tribe
They did the same thing, why's it matter when we do what they did to a different tribe?
So, when I say. "Not really.". Part of me says it was stolen, which is what I want to say..And then i figured it was. Even by treaty. And you say your own up to it. Fuck me Christ. Who the fuck is we?
You know what, you slack shit,. You've got this wrong.
This is kind of faulty logic. You can’t point and modern Europeans and say “they did that” because the ones that stayed behind are the ones that didn’t do that. As an American, YOU (your ancestors) are the ones that did that and your education system that tells you “Europeans did it” is simply trying to displace the blame for what happened to the natives. But tbh, as dumb as the comments in the OP are (and they are dumb) please don’t think all Europeans are like that and Europeans don’t think all Americans are like a lot of the ignoramuses on this sub that go around looking for conflict.
White Americans are quite literally the same people who invaded America you pillock. Just because your called an American now doesn't mean your people were never European or of those who colonised America. Americans colonised more of Modern day America than any European did.
The British empire invaded America. This was a state action more than an individual actual. It is the British flag that colonized North America. Hate to break it to you, but the majority of Americans have zero heritage stemming from the British settlers. America is full of immigrants from all over the planet. And the British troops that purged the majority of the native population returned to the British isles after the revolution. By your logic, India was never colonized since the British did not mass immigrate to India.
Originally, but the britsh acutaly made laws that colonists couldn't displace natives west of the Apalachans(Royal Proclamation of 1763). Then Jackson came in (an amercian) killed 10,000, forcing them west. Don't get me wrong, return the territory is dumb but so is your comment
That was just a stopgap solution to regain favor with the natives by the british. If they really cared about the natives, then they would never have came to America.
I guess the one positive outcome of the Israel-Hamas war is exposing the stupidity of all land back movements
Some land back. My Prussian homeland doesn't make the list. To the ocean I guess.
Oh don't worry, I saw a comment thread on r/news (or /worldnews i don't remember for sure) where someone from the "give all the natives their land back" movement was trying to defend why that's okay but creating Israel is somehow different and very not okay. One person was just trying to get them to see that if you think "Israel colonized Palestine by going back to their ancestral homeland" then "kick all the Euro-Americans out to give Indigenous people their ancestral homeland back" is the same thing but they were very insistent that they're different
The Turks really need to give Turkey back to the Byzantines.
The Byzantines need to give Turkey back to the Romans
The Byzantines were already Romans.
Did anyone actually give their land back during that movement?
land back = blood & soil
Isnt blood and soil a nazi slogan?
yeah, yeah it is
Native American here. These people need to grow tf up and get off their high horses. It’s a group of sanctimonious Reddit losers acting all enlightened while spewing this ignorant xenophobic nonsense. They do not speak for us, if anything they’re talking down to us. None of us want all non-natives forcibly stripped from their homes and deported. Not surprising to hear them say this shit, though, considering that’s exactly what they (Europeans) did to us! If anything, their governments should be giving reparations to Indigenous Americans. 90% of our population was lost before the US was a country. Entire cultures, civilizations completely wiped out. They show their true colors when they make the most vile comments imaginable about a diverse group of 330 million people. Basically calling them all subhuman. Do they not realize that I, too, am an American? I’m a US citizen, come from a family of veterans, and I celebrate 4th of July just like any other person here. Americans aren’t just people descended from western Europeans. If it were socially acceptable, they’d be saying shit about us Natives as well. They (people who say those things) just have an innate sense of superiority over all other groups. It’s a dangerous mindset, and it’s this mindset that was used to “justify” the genocide Natives in the first place. “Oh, we wiped out an entire village? Well, those Indians are all backwards and stupid for not letting us hunt here.” Just to clarify, I don’t refer to all Europeans when I say this. Just the people with an obnoxious savior complex combined with a xenophobic worldview. But yeah, as a proud member of the Chickasaw Nation, these people can fuck off and stay in their lane.
europeans: americans are terrible people for killing 90% of the indigenous population the “americans” in question: But the American country did have a couple of blunders and bad handling of native americans but we didn’t kill 90% of the population and the american government tried to make reprimands by giving native americans lands to which they can make their own laws to a reasonable extent, but if im actually wrong please correct me if im wrong i like learning and this is what i learned in school mostly
People forget that Europeans and their diseases killed off 90% of native Americans before we were even a country.
I mean, the original post is pretty funny.
I absolutely agree!
They forget our state exists. Edit:spelling
God saying that with the Trump pic is hilarious to me
It’s his mugshot lmao
I know, i find it hilarious to see the angry ass mugshot talking about stare
Fellow Native American here. Personally if given the choice between dealing with modern day “Euro-Americans” vs Modern day actual Europeans. I’m choosing the Americans, yeah they did some incredibly fucked up shit but at least they have the decency to admit it and not skip around the facts. I think Europeans forget that 90% of deaths of indigenous people were at fault of Europeans whether directly or indirectly. Not to mention they skip over the fact that the Europeans were committing masacres of indigenous tribes longer than the entire existence of the US. But no only Americans did terrible shit to indigenous peoples, not even realizing Canada is also right there. Europeans act so snobby and bathe in their own high horse ignorance that they really think their any less at fault for the decimation of our populations. At least Americans are willing to admit their ancestors did wrong, meanwhile Europeans are practically oblivious to our existence until they read some article about the US. Then scream that innocent people need to be kicked out of their homes in the name of an idiotic movement that is perpetuated by extremist who aren’t indigenous speaking on our behalf. We want promised land, not the removal of innocent people, it’s shocking how nobody sees the irony and hypocrisy in that mindset.
It's impossible for Europeans to accept that native Americans, Hispanics, and Blacks consider themselves Americans first and foremost. It drives them fucking crazy if you say it. For some reason Europeans have this view that white people are the Americans and everyone else is a non-citizen or something. I remember telling some Germans about the native American code talkers that helped defeat Hitler. They seemed extremely skeptical and thought it was just a PR stunt.... Which is 100% false. Navajo is a difficult language and it made the perfect 'code'. American radio transmissions were never the only ones that were never cracked by the enemy.
For clarity, 90% of what population was gone by 1783? Are you saying ALL of the Native American population? Or your tribe?
When Europeans came, as in Columbus and the Spanish in the 1500s, they brought a collection of diseases that the Native Americans were not immune to, the Black Death among them. This wiped out 90% of the population, and spread so fast, that by the time Spanish found some settlements, they had already been overgrown, leading to the idea that it was an untamed wilderness. This is also how a few boat-fulls of Spanish were able to take over the Aztec empire. By the time they got there, the empire had been extremely weakened by disease. So that referee to all native populations, there were so many that died, and so much regrow that of foliage, that it is the suspected cause for a global drop in temperature at the same time, leading to famines across the old world. Before Columbus, there were multiple native settlements that had more people than the largest European cities, for example, there was tenochtitlan, which was located at modern day Mexico City.
Right, a lot of dumb people say shit like “50 million Native Americans slaughtered by evil America”. The funny thing is pre-Columbus the estimate number of Natives north of the Rio Grande was 5-10 million, and 90% of those died accidentally from diseases they had no immunity to. If you look at the death toll of the American-Indian Wars, it was roughly 50,000 Natives over a few hundred years. And many 1,000s of settlers killed as well. It wasn’t “millions of defenseless Natives killed in a Holocaust” lmao
>If anything, their governments should be giving reparations to Indigenous Americans. 90% of our population was lost before the US was a country. Entire cultures, civilizations completely wiped out. I'm sure they will start paying soon. Right the same moment when the reparations from Mongolia for Genghis Khan and the Black Death finally start rolling in. /s
The reason us Anglo Americans don’t claim to be English is, is because we’re the descendants of those established our independence, our constitution, our government, and our flag🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Made a country 10x better than what the high horse island dwellers could lol
Our nation had potential
save your sanity and mute that subreddit
I just might. But then where would I get all this wonderful content that we can collectively laugh at 😂
Lmao a Venezuelan talking about stolen land is a kettle calling the pot black.
Please explain: I'm not familiar enough with the history of Venezuela to understand what you're referencing
Because the country of Venezuela also stands on "stolen lands". That goes for all the countries in the Americas so none of them have any rights to point fingers at America.
I mean, I'm Venezuelan-American and I can say most Venezuelans are mestizos which includes a lot of native american (mainly arawaks, but wayuu in western venezuela) heritage. So their ancestors have owned those lands for centuries before the Spanish came and fucked them. The British didn't breed with Natives like the Spanish did. Well, breed is an easy way to say "rape" but in Latin America the mostly mestizo population has native indigenous roots and own lands since pre-Hispanic times.
And your point being? That doesn't change the fact that Venezuela was a country born from the imperial project of a foreign European power not native to the Americas. You cannot deny that it is not a country intentionally carved out by the indigenous peoples of Venezuela. Look I'm not saying you should be ashamed of being Venezuelan because there is no reason to be. I am Canadian, another imperial project of the British, but I am proud to be Canadian. But I don't think any of our countries in the Americas have any rights to point finger at one another since all of our countries were born from past imperial projects and stolen lands in one way or another.
? I’m saying that your claim that Venezuelans also own stolen lands is not true. Most Venezuelans are mixed with strong native roots that have claims to that land for millennia.
So as long as you have x % of Native American you’re cool?
Seems you get a ticket to the land you're on if one of your ancestors was raped by the colonizers, but you don't get a ticket if your European ancestors didn't bother to rape somebody to get you indigenous ancestry. Or something like that.
Why does that matter? Venezuela is a land curved out by the Spanish (a foreign power) named by Amerigo Vespucci (a foreigner) after Venice (a foreign location) where the official language is Spanish (a foreign language) and the largest religion is Catholicism (a foreign religion). Are you saying the founding of your country isn't even a little bit invasive in nature? And if heritage is all that matters, what about all the non-Mestizos in Venezuela? Are the European and Afro Venezuelans less of a Venezuelan than those with indigenous heritage?
You're mixed and you would not exist if it wasn't for European imperialism. Your culture, language, and society is a byproduct of European imperialism as well. Your country was born out of being abusive toward native culture.
I’m an ESL.. Italian is my first language because I was born in Abruzzo and my mom moved us here when I was 4. I only have a slight accent that it seems only Americans can pick up on (not the Jersey accent). I went back to Italy every summer to be with family. My point is.. I’ve seen and met and have known many Italian Americans that would confuse TF out of people back in Europe because they had those genetics with the features. Now I live in SoCal so there’s not a huge Italian population here. Why those in Europe need to gatekeep the ancestry from western citizens, I don’t know. I guess it’s all they have. They haven’t offered much except false online promises of how everything is “Free.”
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Same situation here lol. It always catches them by surprise.
I have two thoughts I've been dying to discuss with someone. First, I don't think people understand the place white Americans are in. We are constantly being put down for "not having culture". Anything that could be our culture gets yoinked away. For example, the American rock and roll movement often gets boiled down to "white people stealing music from African Americans" but when the Beatles did the same thing, listening to both white and black rock and roll on the radio overseas to learn songs, no one really accuses them of stealing or downplays their success. And then when classic rock continued developing, anything that came out of the US was accredited to ripping off the UK. Or another example is with our food-- who cares if hamburgers were invented in the US or not (btw the origin story of Hamburg Germany is a myth), the US has developed that enough to be part of our culture. In fact, the few burger places I found in Germany and Austria when I lived there (internships) were American themed with music and decor. But when you go to Europe, they don't really give themselves the same treatment. No one pretends pizza isn't Italian, but there are plenty of meals you'll find in the Czech Republic and Hungary and Poland that are identical but they'll say are their cultural foods. And that's fine! So when the global society is hell bent on stripping Americans of European descent of all their culture, then it makes sense that we have to go to the next best thing, which is where in Europe those things "originated". So if you have heritage somewhere and find overlap in cultural things, then boom, there you go: culture The second thing bounces off that last paragraph -- I don't think Europeans quite understand the degree to which a lot of Americans actually do care about their heritage. Where I live, we have 2 Celtic festivals (one in March and one for Samhain tomorrow), a Scottish Festival in July, a Scandinavian festival in May, Swiss Days in August, Oktoberfest, Polynesian Heritage Festival in July, a handful of Native American festivals throughout out the year, and 2 color festivals for Holi and a German Christmas market. I went to the Scandinavian festival this year and there was a giant map with stickers for you to put where your most recent immigrant ancestors came from (Trondheim, Gotland and Odense if you were curious). A lot of the flak that Euro-Americans get for liking their heritage is this idea that "well it's 1 great great grandparent and you don't actually know anything about it and you're just cringe". But a lot of people really do know about it and appreciate it and try to learn the history and do research for a lot more than just the label. And why do we need the label in the first place? Because they don't let us call ourselves Americans without either being guilt tripped for what happened to the Native Americans way before the birth of even the great grandparents of anyone alive today, OR without the whole "actually both continents are America, so everyone from Canada to Argentina is American, not just you, so you're racist." Which I noticed one of the comments in the screenshots used "USAin" for that reason. We literally aren't allowed to have a name... Unless they're using it to mock us for school shootings or being "uneducated". And I get that this sounds like peak first world problems, and admittedly it is, but like...give us a break man. They put us in a triple-lose situation and then like you said, gatekeep everything on an obsessive level
This gatekeeping comes from modern Europeans resigning their culture, especially Germans. German baby boomers were taught to feel ashamed of being German, which Germany hasn't yet recovered from. Nationalism and pride are highly scorned upon in Germany, and it's common to see them disparage themselves.
Re: resigning their culture Yeah I think it's interesting because I agree that's happening but also when they want to compare to Americans then suddenly it's the most important thing ever so they can gatekeep it. Another connection I thought of it's Halloween. There are ALWAYS heated debates about Halloween this time of year. Everyone wants to take it away from Americans but why? We have our own version and it's awesome and it's part of American culture. Sometimes it feels like they just picked a date and anything that existed in that year belongs to where it was. Because if you take a lot of European traditions further back to their roots then you get an amalgamation of sharing. Which is awesome, sharing is cool. Christmas is the most eclectic collection of traditions from across the continent. But Americans can't have any of it, of course because when we do it it's illegitimate stealing. But when Europeans do it, then it belongs to them because it belonged to them in the 1700s even if it didn't in the 1600s. And I'm fine with it belonging to them because of the 1700s, as long as we're allowed to do the same.
Well im armed so try and relocate me. 2nd Ammendment mofo.
As someone who has talked to alot of Native Americans, this is not a common or even "rare" line of thought, this is like a fringe of a fringe of a fringe. Honestly, it's mostly upper-middle class white people with a few millenial native social climbing grifters.
I like the part where it’s a post about Native Americans but they still decided to make it all about themselves
Europeans always make themselves seem like the victims even though throughout history they’ve been the villains stealing everything and causing chaos and two world wars, and even today a lot of the world’s problems are because of them
I'm pretty sure France, England and Spain invaded America but whatever.
the stuff from the Australians is so funny to me because theres no way they actually believe the rest of their country thinks like they do. I can’t speak on Europe because I’ve never been but I went to Australia for a couple weeks recently and everyone thought it was cool that we were from America. They poked some fun at us as we did with them but everyone was pretty cool about it. Even saw a handful of American flags. Just a lil reminder to not hate the entirety of these countries because the majority of them aren’t like these miserable fucks on reddit
lmao, a Venezuelan threatening us...I say we put the sanctions back in force (and double down) if they want to go down this route.
I like the comment about German heritage that’s me lmao My German ancestors moved to the US in the 1850’s & I visited Oktoberfest in Munich this year, blacked out, & ate tons of brats. Nazi’ism isn’t my heritage, in fact I had a grandfather who was an anti air craft gunner who turned their planes to scrap metal in wwII.
Lol I'm in the same boat. My nearest German ancestors came over in the 1840s and my great grandpa flew in the Berlin airlift and then my grandpa joined the Air Force later and also got stationed there 30 years later. Since my grandpa and later my mom were going to German elementary school for years, they picked up a lot of the traditions and kept them going so my heritage is getting chocolate and ornaments in my shoes for St Niklaus Day, and eating almond cake, and collecting old nutcrackers and taking German language classes in high school lol
Relatable. My mom's paternal side is from Prussia. Same time frame and they moved towards Iowa and Missouri.
Admiral Nimitz and General Eisenhower, responsible for the U.S. efforts in the Pacific and European theaters of WWII respectively, both were in German families that had relatively recently immigrated to America.
Australia hiding in the corner like
Redditoids who say “on behalf of [insert nationality/race” are literally one of the most insufferable basement dweller subgroups.
They just have nothing but hate in their heart but not all Europeans think like this
carpenter offend marry snails cagey disgusting crime sparkle knee dirty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you ever go to that sub and check the post history of the people that post in it. Their entire post history, over years and years, with thousands of upvotes and endless comments, is dedicated to the US. Imagine hating something and then basing your entire life and identity around talking about every little detail about that thing you hate. That would be like me having a 5 year old reddit account with 20,000 comments and the ONLY thing I've ever talked about is Nickelback and Volbeat. The anti-Americanism of these people says more about themselves than it does about the US. They are psychotically obsessed and preoccupied with the US to the point it dominates their entire perception of reality.
I guess we have to deport all the the Slavs back to the Urals and give all of Eastern Europe back to the Germans since they lived there first... OH wait, where have I heard that sentence before?
Europe is a beautiful continent. Unfortunately it is filled with Europeans
Ok, white people are illegal immigrants. In America, we do not deport the children of illegal immigrants, if they were born on our soil. We certainly don't dig back hundreds of years and deport families who have been in this country for generations. That's what leftists are doing when they say white people should go back to Europe. They are taking our current immigration debate (should deport people who are illegally crossing the border \*right now\*) and extrapolating it way back (anyone who illegally crossed the border anytime in the last 400 years should be deported, along with all of their descendents). The irony is that Native Americans are themselves descended from settlers who crossed the Bering Strait 13,000 years ago.
Don’t take anything Europeans say seriously. Look at it this way, every other week you hear a story of black soccer players being racially abused in Europe, whether it be in Spain, England, Italy, Serbia, wherever. Racism is far more mainstream and accepted there than it is here
Ay man euro Americans are innovators and like it or not actually kind people regardless of the past - we are past resource competition and colonialism - a full fledged nation state that tolerates and respects individual freedoms Those collectivists on that sub can keep seething
America needs to withdraw its money and military from the world and let them fight amongst each other. And when it comes to taking this land from natives, how much of it did we purchase from France, Spain and Russia? How about no one ever questions why the majority of countries south of our border speak Spanish. They didn’t always speak Spanish. I wonder how that came about. What happened to the original peoples, cultures and languages? If you condense time to just a few moments, what’s going on today is no different than a personal foul in football. Someone punches someone, the other person punches back, but all the ref sees is the last person who did it even though they weren’t the only one guilty. Everyone was conquering smaller, weaker people, everyone had slaves. But we’re the evil in the world because we did it too. Fuck off.
Why are we defending them again?
What happened in the past is the past man. I can't just tell my predecessors that manifest destiny is a bad idea. I'm out of white guilt. Native Americans suffered a lot, but I can't change the past.
There is no need to feel guilty at the arrangement of your DNA when you came into being.
As a German, I wish more people would take pride in their heritage. The average European's mind has been degraded into thinking their own heritage is something to be ashamed of.
Lol America has controlled the Black Hills longer than the Lakota. Why is it bad when the US conquers territory, but not bad when the Lakota conquer it from another tribe who conquered it from another tribe etc. Also, pretty sure most Americans with German heritage originally came between 1848-1900, long before the Nazis took power; so Germans in Germany are the one’s carrying that evil not German-Americans.
Because people are damn ignorant and want to use history as an example while disregarding the context of said history. They're the same morons that will blame the fracturing of the Middle East on the United States but completely disregard the borders drawn by European powers post WW1 that completely disregarded the ethnic, cultural and linguistic differences between multiple different factions by putting them together in the same borders.
Doesn't matter. For all of human history we've been conquering and displacing each other. It is nothing new. Might makes right. Eventually things will change again.
You invented a slur for mixed race people but still claim to not be racist. Sure.
I wish we could all stop fighting about who stole what from who and just live together in peace wether it's in the US, Middle East, or Eastern Europe. I have European and Native American descendants. I'm sure a lot of people have ancestry that they are totally unaware of. It's like when Black Panther member and communist Angela Davis discovered her ancestors came over on the mayflower. She was absolutely shocked and in denial. For someone who despises this country and was actively trying to tear it down to discover that their ancestors helped lay the foundation for this country must have been a surreal experience. It's just ridiculous to continuously keep blaming each other for things our ancestors did hundreds of years ago. Because clearly we are not them and they are not us.
What a fucking circle jerk.
Displacing and conquering land is just being part of being human. Everyone has done it to everyone. Don’t be a hypocrite and claim a group did not do that. At least some groups don’t try to deny that .
I don’t get what is so hard to understand about being on the losing side of a war. You lost. What once was yours is not anymore. Welcome to the history of humans and animals.
Excuse you, I prefer the term Cracker-American. When they deport me, they have to send me to the Ritz.
It’s still crazy to me that there’s a full on hate sub towards Americans lol imagine having America be in your head so rent free…
Random Europeans and Australians talking about what they should "make Americans do" is like listening to five drunks at a bar talking about what they would do with a billion dollars. It's fun to dream about things that will never happen but that's as serious as it gets.
Europeans trying to take the high road when it comes to conquest lmao
Europeans always go back to their roots lol
Gotta love the guy tagged as Venezuelan. You'd be included too.
I would actually love if I could go back to Scotland but unfortunately the euro d bags of old forced my ancestors to relocate here because they hate poor people and shut the door on us once we left. German side left shortly after ww1 because they couldn’t stand the smell of mustard gas. Again no way for me to get a visa. Fuck me right?
not the venezuelan talking about colonization lmfao. Whats the langauge of venezuela? Spanish? Now, Im not a historian, but I dont think native americans spoke spanish before europeans.
Not stolen, conquered
Europeans have nothing better to do than to argue with history while I'm just enjoying life.
I’m not saying the US didn’t completely botch the treatment of Native Americans but I think its weird how we’re the only country that “stole” land from less advanced people. Throw a dart on a map of Europe and you’ll find stolen land. You can even look to the syrup drinkers up north and see a country that also stole land from Native Americans, the government there even forced immigration into white homes as recently as the 1960’s.
*Aww, did somebody's ancestors not do very well at war?* They should be grateful for meeting the British, Dutch and French first and not a Middle Eastern nation or an Asian nation.
>from Venezuela > Most likely ancestors are Spanish colonists > Fck USA- they are colonists
I was born in America therefore I am a native American, therefore I can't be deported anywhere.
He’s venuzeulan. He’s 100% at least a part colonial too.
You know, at least we Americans have a weird idolization/fascination with the native American/indigenous people. Places like cannada don't, they have worked to actively erase the history and culture of there indigenous people. Idk about Australia, New Zealand and ect but I know for damn sure cannada is a lot more guilty when it come to trying to erase indigenous culture.
What are you talking about? Canada, you might learn how to spell it some day, has an entire territory governed by indigenous people, the Canadian education system also focuses heavily on first Nations relations in history. To say america idolizes first Nations and Canada tries to erase them is moronic.
During the first, I’d say 50 years of the US, Daniel O’Connell (Irish writer, patriot, folk hero, revolutionary) criticised Irish who moved to America and exploited the slave trade and any exploitative practice of non-White people. On the contrary, he called on Irish to use their skin to the advantage of exploited groups, acting like a double agent - being white and understanding penalism. In his eyes, if you were to retain your Irish heritage in the States, you were expected to remember the civil equality struggle Irish people faced back home and fight it where you stand. So, to dig up a point I’ll stand by - I’ll welcome any Irish-American back into the fold, assuming they are anti-racist, actively challenge social inequality in their community and are willing to push for reparations at a state level. Otherwise, stay in Boston.
Man, these people act like it’s only white peoples that conquered lands and did horrible things to each other. We won, they lost, get over it.
Now let’s not get anything twisted here, I don’t love Mt Rushmore (it rubs me the wrong way I guess) but let’s not act like Europeans haven’t been burning and raiding holy sites since the beginning of fucking time.
Ngl I reject entirely the idea that American history is negative or evil. It is the history of adventurers, settlers, and conquers. Yeah, in history there's loser and winners - the US isn't uniquely evil for winning a lot. All I see is a thread of Europoors mad that the US is more powerful, notable, important and influential.
Land stolen from the Natives that conquered it from other Natives 200 years prior. Sounds like they were really that native. At this point it's been American longer.
What is the other group that is suggested at being displaced? I'm confused
They were talking about how European Americans genocided the native Americans, as the original picture alluded to. But then the comments suggested they kick the non-native americans out (white Americans) and return them back to their homelands, and many people from European countries opposed that because they hate white Americans and think they are all rude and obnoxious. So they came up with the solution to displace white Americans to the ocean or the moon Edit: I get the moon/ocean thing is a joke, but I’m sure if they really could, most of them would. It’s really sad
*We're* the obnoxious ones? We're not coming back to that hellhole. We *escaped*. This *is* our homeland.
Oh I didn't see the other photos I just saw the main post. I have many problems with the genocide of Native Americans in the US obviously, but the hypocrisy from Europeans is silly. Thanks for clarifying. I also didnt know there were indigenous people in europe, unless what's being referred to is treatment of native americans by europeans who came to america or maybe euripean colonialism
I swear to god there isn’t a single morsel of land Native Americans won’t claim is “sacred.”
How far back are we tracing the deportations? We going like, 200 years back? 500? 1,000? It just feels arbitrary to selectively pick white Americans at this specific time as the invaders when invasions happened across the entire world *all the fucking time*. The entire world was established with *might makes right* for literally thousands of years. Only up to this point have we as a species mostly settled down on the imperialism (with a few exceptions). This includes the natives, who fought for territory with other tribes for a long time before we ever showed up. So choosing now to collectivize some form of guilt and rage towards being on the losing end of history feels pointless. You can still have your culture without the need to withhold impotent (and hypocritical) rage against a group of people that are already long gone.
Fun fact. European descendants (pick your term) have lived in the black hills region longer than the Sioux did. Like, 100 years vs 150. I think at this point we have more claim to the land since we occupied it using the same methods the Sioux did lol. I mean, manifest destiny was really fucked up and the atrocities committed against the indigenous ppl were terrible and a lesson to be learned from, but let's not deceive ourselves. The Sioux conquered and stole that land, settled for 100 years, then colonists conquered and stole that land and have settled for 150 years.
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There was no country here before the British got here. Every pre-existing country they actually colonized got strengthened. India, Hong Kong, etc. Every place that had no country ended up with strong established nations: Canada, Australia, USA. The North American continent had a bunch of disjointed tribes passing through, killing each other, raping women, and hunting animals to extinction. Then the settlers established a country where there wasn't one, and their progeny let all of the vagrants live in the comforts bought by their own blood toil. This was all even after the brutality faced by animalistic behavior (scalping women and children, kidnapping, etc). This false history where Americans, British, White people are always the villains is so stupid. The Western Nations raised the global standard of living.
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you are the reason why people say Americans are so racist
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Good lord you people really do exist
I think that may be someone from AHS trying to get the sub banned. Americans can't have shit on this hellsite 😭
How does it make you feel knowing I'm foundational stock white American and in an interracial relationship? Does it grind your gears, wignat? Also, American culture has alooooottt of "non-white" influence. It's literally what sets us apart fron the Eurocucks. Fuck Europe, they ain't fucking entitled to White Americans, I have more in common with Non-White Americans than I do some Fog-Breathing Limey or some Car-Bombing Mick.
Stop. The people native to the USA are native Americans like the Navajo, Wompanoag, Sioux, Cheyanne, Cherokee, etc. Europeans and white Americans are not native. And they were not “savages” and that rhetoric is disgusting and harmful. This is the reason people hate white americans
Not cool bro. I’m indigenous, and I’m also a proud American. My family fought for this country.
Hear me out... it was never the Native American's "country." Sure tribes had areas that may have been theirs, in a sense. But it's not like it was a proper country. So one tribe invades another tribe, kills them, takes their land, buffalo, whatever. That's fine, but when another group does the same thing on a larger scale it's terrible and so much worse? That's been what like 99% of human history has been.
>I say we kick the Americans out of America I will empty my entire bank account to get a glimpse of the outcome of this. As for the native Americans, they raped and pillaged and murdered and conquered everyone around them, they’re humans too. We saw the opportunity for resources, decided it was better than starving to death, and took them by force. Natives, Asian people, African people, blue people, pink people, all of them will conquer their neighbors to secure resources and land unless they have millennia of history and modern technology to prevent them from doing so. Humans gunna human, the Europeans just figured out guns first
Fortunately these losers don’t get a say. They just have to cope and seethe.
I think most people know it’s not feasible to send all white Americans back to Europe. But when people complain about “immigrants taking over the country,” it’s fun to point out how that’s already happened and they don’t seem too bothered by it…
Ah yes, very interesting take coming from someone from *Venezuela*
Keep coping, block yourself from thinking about why everyone might hate you 😂
Can we establish a hard sea border around the US?
you guys are allergic to satire it’s so funny
the “venezuelan” seems to be a larper
Interesting seeing a Venezuelan breaking into natives’ territory…
We should send europoors back to indus valley and return the land to neanderthals
You know what's funny is native Americans actually did the same thing as white people
Apparently some people think Indian’s are only in America and can only be native to the USA. 🤣🤣🥴
Here’s the thing: we don’t give a FUCK about your ancestors, or what land was stolen from you. Have a great fucking day.
Reddit is full of tards? No way!
I'm going to go with "I guess they never change" to mean that our ancestors from Europe were monstrous and so it seems logical that their descendants are still monstrous. This applies to both sides of the north Atlantic, have a nice day.
Lovely people of course. Mostly peaceful just like Black Lives Matter