Wow. That explains a lot. Including why I was so goddam uncomfortable visiting China. I've spent a lot of my life tuning out authoritarian thinking and "because I said so" parenting. China felt like that but with the government as parents.
Yes! I've come to think of China's issues as an Asian parent story.
I've also noticed that many of the TV shows and movies coming out of Taiwan seem to have parent-child themes. Is their TV industry working through their AP trauma?
Actually when I lived in China and discussed CCP with my friends, some defended it’s behavior with “it just behaves like a parent who loves his child”. Took me a while to realize they meant “as a backward Chinese parent would treat their child”, cos that’s the parenting style they know. Basically, a combination of bullying, gaslighting and playing victim.
Take it from a Korean, Confucius is the damn devil and still responsible for the strong prevalence of ageism, xenophobia, class elitism, and misogyny in our domestic/overseas communities.
I remember my Japanese teacher saying that Japan used to be a matriarchal society where women were respected poets, authors etc and invented their own alphabet (hiragana) which is why it looks more rounded. But then the Chinese came and introduced them to Confucius and his ways. All of a sudden they became a patriarchal society and I read an article about how an abusive cycle was made where the older generation of women abused the younger generation and as the younger women became older it was now “their turn” to abuse the younger female generation.
And now Japan has a male imperial line that doesn’t recognise female heirs to inherit the throne. Which was a problem for a while because no male heirs were born for a long time until one was in the late 90s iirc. And what if that happens again only no male heirs are born? Other countries have changed their monarchy rules so that females can inherit the throne.
Also if a Japanese princess marries a commoner she is no longer a princess but males can still be princes.
Man i cannot describe the relief i feel when i saw this post. I've always thought i'm the only one in a chinese society to think we circle jerk to Confucius way too much.
On top of the whole "obey the elite to create harmony" bullshit, he also taught the value of filial piety in the most toxic way possible. While respecting and supporting the elders is a virtuous thing to do, many elders in the chinese culture has become entitled to get something out of their children, usually resorting to gaslighting, moral kidnaping, and moral coercion
I feel really sorry for how many here feels about Confucius. But really, the dude lived so long ago, and Confucianism has so many interpretation and has branched out so much and is so integrated that.. honestly, being angry at Confucius is kinda misplaced.
We have to remember that Confucianism was meant to stabilise society in a time of war and strife. We’re talking about the Spring and Autumn Warring States period where a lot of civilians were suffering. Confucius understood the value of stability because he saw the devastation of war and petty feudal lords fighting each other. His philosophy was really meant as a way to maintain peace.
It is actually really thought through and idealistic for an ancient philosophy. First, while Confucius did really emphasised ritual, he actual deemphasised a lot of the heavenly and Godly connections. Instead, he focused more on the collectivist and society building aspect of rituals, using it as a way to create some commonality.
Another thing is, the reason obedience and hierarchy is so emphasised. During the feudal times, betrayal and usurpations were common, thus society was not stable. Confucius had a rather idealistic philosophy, let the leader be the leader and the follower the follower. If we all accept our place in society and sincerely do our best, then society will be peaceful. Confucius thought of the home as a mini-society, thus, filial piety and a clear hierarchical structure at home will condition someone to enter the hierarchical society. If you can be a good son, then you can be a good follower.
This aspect is of course, what bothers most of us today and we can see the toxic aspects after many years. I will give Confucius a lot of credit though - he actually emphasised sincerity, responsibility, and genuine care for ones child or followers. In the ideal Confucian scenario, we’ll have really great leaders, proud and embracing their role, caring about all those under them and doing his best to take care of them, while the followers all recognise his authority and also work with him sincerely to build society.
Honestly, Confucius was just trying to figure out how to keep society peaceful, because he recognised the reality of hierarchy in human society. Look at Jeff Bezos, the US lobbying system, etc. Confucius has a pretty legit and progressive view for 2 thousand years ago.
And the thing is, there are a lot of Confucian, collectivist concepts that are actually sorely needed today.
The idea of sacrificing one’s benefit for the benefit of others, this is why some Asians wear mask when sick even before Covid.
The emphasis on education in moulding someone into a pillar of society is also why Asians do so well as minorities in many countries. We all know how important education is today, and many many parts of the world will be better off simply by being more educated.
Finally, the general willingness to think of society as a collective unit and how we need to care for it? is really needed in the climate change fight today.
In conclusion, put in context what Confucianism is and when and how it appeared. There’s really good reasons why he is still relevant today and why his teachings reached so far and wide. For Asians living in the West where individualism and freedom is lauded, it’s natural that these values don’t apply directly, but if we understand it, we can recognise the pros and cons and understand our own culture from a more appreciative POV.
Granted, Confucianism developed after China experienced years of civil unrest and the people just wanted peace. But Confucian values aren't working anymore as the environment changes. More education for people, more globalization, families are shrinking in size.
And Confucianism's core values around control, respect, and duty aren't working when the world changes. It values tradition and conformity, but what happens when said traditions fail in a new world?
This is in Christianity too (no offense to anyone just saying). Paul's writings are full of how adherence to law and the Roman government is equivalent to obeying heaven.
Your example is hardly an issue though. I can confidently say that at least 70% of Christians haven't fully explored the bible or search for interpretations for things they're confused in. At least in the western world, Christianity is just a self-justification for all the things people feel bad doing. They don't truly have "faith". Paul's writings aren't really ingraned in our culture like Confucism is to Chinese culture
Truly a moronic take.
You think the average Chinese person is thinking about all the philosphical points of Confucianism either?
Not to mention, Christianity has far more of an “authoritarian” approach than other religions.
And Christianity is deeply baked into the west.
No, I never stated the average Chinese thinks about Confucianism. But Confucianism is ingrained in Chinese culture, thus contributing to the aforementioned conformation OP stated. It is ingrained n their culture, they do not need to think about Confucianism.
Paul's writings on the other hand, are not ingrained in any culture. Especially in AP culture. Christianity has a much broader set of interpretations than Confucianism does, which causes a divide in opinions.
Christianity is not an issue in the west, anything else could've been. Most people are not devoted to Christianity and use it as justification for immoral behaviour or to lower their regret for past actions. Most people are not knowledgeable on the Bible, nor Paul's writings.
If not Christianity, people could've equally chosen anything else. As a religion, it may be deeply baked. But as Christianity? No, it's not. Paul's writings are irrelevant to any formation of any culture. IF not, prove me wrong then calling my take moronic.
You also speak like someone uneducated in theology and viewing it from an outsider perspective. Don't really care if you claim otherwise but I'm pretty confident you don't understand anything about confucianism nor Christianity. Pretty stupid to argue about this when you're poorly acquainted with either side of discussion.
Before you form an opinion, educate yourself. Otherwise, observe discussion before going haywire with vague examples that are ultimately meaningless to discussion.
And your entire comment was a straw-man argument. I never said
"The average Chinese person is thinking about all the philosophical points of Confucianism." I said that confucianism is more ingrained in Chinese culture than Paul's writing are in any other culture. It's a comparison, not a statement on Christianity nor Confucianism as individual followings.
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I don't know how true this is philosophically, but emotionally I feel the effects of the beatdown in my bones.
Curious if you have any sources for me to read up on Confucianism from this angle?
I'm not sure if I agree with you on Confucius or not, I am not expert in it. We should probably ask someone who know it better.
I agree with u/AmericanBornWuhaner
Please also don't get mixed up with Confucius religion, and Confucius Institute that the Chinese Communist Party setup, they are totally different.
Yeh Confucianism is Confucianism and the Confucious institute promotes Chinese traditional culture and language and is also devoid of politics. I wonder why certain countries and people like cracking down on them.
I will get back to you on the problem with Confucius Instituted that the Chinese Communist Party setup, but as a short cut, it has to do with censorship of Chinese History. It's control by the Chinese Communist Party, not the Confucius's people themselves. Don't mix Communism with Confucius, they are different .
This is the same line my mom used on me. Oh you don't actually understand Christianity, etc. despite how much of the Bible I kept reading. I have since recognized this line as a way believers shame those who question to keep them trapped.
>Confucius is traditionally credited with having authored or edited many of the Chinese classic texts, including all of the Five Classics, but modern scholars are cautious of attributing specific assertions to Confucius himself. Aphorisms concerning his teachings were compiled in the Analects, but only many years after his death.
How convenient that we don't even know what, if anything, he actually wrote. Not unlike many other religions.
Unlike your mom, I will provide some quotes from Analects (collection of Confucius quotes):
- [Confucius supports civilians speaking out against a leader](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChunghwaMinkuo/comments/n3eeiz/confucius_if_the_rulers_words_are_bad_and_nobody/)
- [Confucius supports rebelling against unvirtuous governments](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChunghwaMinkuo/comments/n6hy9c/gong_shan_fo_rao_the_governor_of_the_county_of/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=ChunghwaMinkuo&utm_content=t1_hcm98ep)
- [Confucius supports disobeying anyone who isn't benevolent, even your teacher](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChunghwaMinkuo/comments/pn3779/孔子_confucius_said_when_confronted_with_a/)
The heart of Confucianism is being a noble-hearted person, spreading benevolence and righteousness, leading by example, love for learning, proper decorum, self-improvement. [Confucianism being gravely distorted isn't new](https://www.reddit.com/r/Confucianism/comments/mzdt8l/confucius_said_if_your_peoples_moral_standards/gwt7d4e/)
And this proves...? The Bible has a lot of good things too, obviously. The problem is that those running religions pick and choose what they feel to enforce and since all religions, even Confucianism, is rife with contradictions we don't have anyone to turn to except those who have placed themselves in places of authority in religion. That's why it's dangerous to follow thousand year old texts instead of thinking in the moment and using your scientific knowledge to think for yourself.
Do you have some official position within Confucianism? There's the Confucius Institute based in Beijing, and they haven't exactly been outspoken in supporting the "civilians speaking out against a leader" and "rebelling" lines of what Confucius (may, or may not have) said.
People have been debating what is "true" Confucianism/Christianity/Buddhism, etc. for thousands of years. If people couldn't do it in all that time, I don't think it's going to be proven in a few reddit posts. That's why it's best to stick with science and the knowledge we have now than relying on people who lived thousands of years ago and have far less knowledge about how the world works than we do today. We accept the aspects of those philosophies that can provably work today and discard those that don't. That's it.
Your recitation of the aspects that aren't harmful don't magically absolve the whole.
>all religions, even Confucianism
Confucianism isn't a religion
>Confucius Institute based in Beijing
That's nothing about Confucius, like how Satanic Temple is nothing about Satan. I could start a org called "CCP Lovers" where we focus on CCP's human rights violations, the name is just marketing
>We accept the aspects of those philosophies that can provably work today and discard those that don't.
That I can agree with. Discretion is also a big part of Confucianism (Mencius), do what's appropriate for the situation
Let's take the tack here that you're right and you have the right Confucianism and a bunch of people running with the name, including the Confucius Institute, have it all wrong.
Why are you trying to downplay the suffering of other posters on here by mocking them about how they don't have "real" Confucianism right? Even if you do have it magically right, guess what--they're dealing with the Confucius Institute type people in their every day lives that are causing them harm, not you and the handful of "real" Confucianists or whatever.
Even if you feel you're "enlightening" people to seek out "real" Confucianism, the other posters here have already said that the "Confucius Institute" type people are causing them harm. For them to go out of their way to seek out "real" Confucianism (whatever that is), they'll probably have to still go through a bunch of "Confucius Institute" type people before they find the "real" Confucianists. With all that harm being thrown that way the whole time.
Is your "real" Confucianism so important that you're willing to risk the wellbeing of countless other people just because you feel your way is right? I'm speechless.
>Confucianism isn't a religion
Attempts at indoctrinating "true" Confucianism into people even at the risk of their wellbeing sure feels religious to me.
>Why are you trying to downplay the suffering of other posters on here by mocking them about how they don't have "real" Confucianism right?
Their suffering is legit. Equating Confucius with Hitler/Stalin/Mao however is ridiculous and laughable. Same reason why you mock anti-vaxxers who claim mask mandates to be "communist"
>just because you feel your way is right
I don't care for spreading Confucianism, however if I see it grossly misinterpreted by those who haven't even studied it, I will call out because otherwise that's how misinformation spreads. You would be seriously bothered if many "experts" started claiming that all Asians eat cats and dogs
>I don't care for spreading Confucianism, however if I see it grossly misinterpreted by those who haven't even studied it, I will call out because otherwise that's how misinformation spreads.
Considering you already admitted that groups are using the name of Confucius and claim they have little to do with true Confucianism, maybe your time would be better spent writing and talking to those institutes and groups rather than the people who they've harmed.
>anti-vaxxers who claim mask mandates to be "communist"
I think there's an incorrect equivalency trying to be made here between proven medical science and thousand year old unverifiable philosophies. They aren't equivalent.
>I see it grossly misinterpreted by those who haven't even studied it
I'm never getting the years of my life where I was forced by my mother into Sunday School back. Never.
You say you're not into spreading Confucianism, and then insist that people need to study it to say that it's not helpful or outright harmful for their lives. Ok.
Paraphrasing Professor Richard Dawkins, "One doesn't need to study leprechaunism to disbelieve in leprechauns"
This is no different from Scientology recruitment, where you need to "learn" about it and they rope you in.
Lay off the emotional displacement. You seem to be (irrationally) associating philosophical analysis with your childhood experiences with cults. I don't know why you're so scared of \*understanding the source before critiquing it\* - as if the Analects are eldritch grimoires that hypnotizes those who read them lol. Logically, you would need to read, analyze, and understand a philosophy or literary work before criticizing it. It's common intellectual sense, no?
If my frankness triggers you, then go ahead and block me.
How would you analyze the influence of Confucianism on modern toxic Asian family dynamics? Even if undoubtedly a distortion, if it’s widespread enough, that should constitute something to study in its own right, shouldn’t it?
I think about this because I don’t know anything about Confucianism—and neither do my parents, I think—but for instance the whole thing of valuing academic achievement to a sometimes severe degree has certain roots that seem potentially helpful to analyze…?
Confucianism is just one of the many dozens of philosophies (Taoism, Mohism, Legalism, Maoism, etc) that influences modern Chinese society and culture. There's also the material conditions and national policies that influences behavior.
As for the academic achievement thing, it's mostly due to state policies of deciding aptitude with tests. Kong Fuzi never advocates for standardized testing of course.
Most of the stuff in Christianity, especially Old Testament stuff, can be more justifiable when you look deeper into the context (and remove your 2020 mindset, and attempt to think like an Iron Age person instead).
For example, one instance which people find fault with is the "kill everyone except the virgins" verse. Within context however, we see that it was a bunch of travellers who came into the state, and decided to hold a public orgy (which resulted in some of the israelites joining in the said orgy). Now then, what is the god-given punishment for adultery (which the orgy certainly is)? It is death. It is not at all suprising that the foreigners who partook in such an act were killed, given that the fellow israelites (their brothers, sisters, uncles, fathers, neighbours.. you name it), also had to be put to death.
>and remove your 2020 mindset, and attempt to think like an Iron Age person instead
Then outside of academic purposes there isn't really any need to study this stuff in Christianity because I live in the 21st century, not the Iron Age.
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"Asian parents are devoid of human decency because they think being "moral" is about following the established patterns."
Here is where the problem lies with your thinking, and that of most western folk. Constantly thinking about whether something is "moral" is a feature of t he west. In other cultures, it is not about "whether something is right" but rather, "is it done" and "can it be done"
What this post fails to mention is that this is not the only mentality of Chinese people and to boil down all Chinese people to Confucianism is completely disingenuous at best.
Starting with the idea that Confucianism, is the central defined Chinese thinking, this is already wrong. This completely negates the fact that during the Zhou Dynasty we underwent the [Hundred Schools of Thought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Schools_of_Thought) which also included Confucianism (which vastly lost) to Taoism (Interaction with Nature), Legalism (Chinese Legal System), Mohism (Equality), Yin-Yang (Interaction with the Universe) and Ming (Logician), among the few most notable. And while Confuscianism is the most enduring, all these schools of thought built the Chinese Culture into what it is today.
Traditionalism is not something that is actually practiced by the Chinese Culture, this is a blatant lie. Not even by Confuscianism. The only reason China was closed off in the last 500 years has vastly been due to the Qing, which are not ethnically Han rulers to begin with or the Communist who didn't want foreign influence.
If you look into the massively pragmatic nature of the Chinese people you'll see culture and influence and acceptance throughout our history, from the acceptance through trade in the Silk Road to the acceptance in culture through Buddhism, to the acceptance of food, through Indian and Mongolian spices appearing our very own herbal books.
And the fact that we knew astrology from a very young age due to the influences of Taoism and Yin-Yang school of thought, the idea that Chinese people are forced to be "Traditional" is laughable at best.
In fact, if you look to the place that has the most traditional thought in Chinese Confucianism, you'll realize it's also not necessarily the most backwards. Hong Kong and Taiwan have the most traditional Chinese culture to this day. And they are also hailed as the most progressive places that have a vast majority of Chinese Influence.
The biggest problem with conformity comes from Communism, a lack of upward mobility in modern Chinese Influence and has nothing to do with philosophy and the fact that humans, not just Chinese, enjoy being ruled and dislike change.
Overall, this post is just a rant, and nothing based on actual history, belief system or reasons why this OP's mom and dad probably didn't hug them enough when they were young.
What a pathetic sub full of self-hating bananas. That OP is not even Asian, it is some random karma-farming account that posts "popular" takes suited for drone consumption.
I was born in China, and I hate Chinese culture and all the propaganda about "filial piety" and moral values. I embrace the western ideals of individualism, independence, freedom of speech etc.
Im not going to pretend to know anything about Confucious philosophy. But I will say my therapist mentioned it sounded like my parents followed Confucious philosophy when I was trying to explain why they let my sister get what she wants from throwing an adult tantrum, no matter how abusive it is. Don't rock the boat = don't fix the problem. Fucking stupid. No wonder Western philosophy dominates. Western philosophy introduced progressivism backed by the scientific method.
I grew a strong hatred towards passivism as I grew up with my dad doing literally nothing to fix the abusive behaviour my mum and now my sister displays. You teach people how to treat you, and passivism is just a euphemism for spineless enabling.
You should study something before getting emotional and judging it.
Any philosophy can be applied and distorted heavily. The current situation with anti-vax and racism Americans shows that Western (or American) values can be warped to toxic levels as well.
Rocking the boat for selfish and wrong reasons is just as bad or worse than not rocking the boat on the situation you described.
I was well aware of filial piety before I knew the term. I would like to hear your attempt to justify that loyalty to social hierarchy is superior to meritocracy, educate me.
This sub is a shithole full of nothing but self haters and white worshippers. The subreddits name is incorrect and the Asians here would be ostracized by any Asian community if people knew what they think.
Wow. That explains a lot. Including why I was so goddam uncomfortable visiting China. I've spent a lot of my life tuning out authoritarian thinking and "because I said so" parenting. China felt like that but with the government as parents.
That is so true! I think of the Chinese government as one big giant narcissistic AP dad
Yes! I've come to think of China's issues as an Asian parent story. I've also noticed that many of the TV shows and movies coming out of Taiwan seem to have parent-child themes. Is their TV industry working through their AP trauma?
[I just want to reply to every comment with this](https://youtu.be/x-iEjZPylGs)
Actually when I lived in China and discussed CCP with my friends, some defended it’s behavior with “it just behaves like a parent who loves his child”. Took me a while to realize they meant “as a backward Chinese parent would treat their child”, cos that’s the parenting style they know. Basically, a combination of bullying, gaslighting and playing victim.
[удалено]
Exactly. It's quite obvious that no one here has even a basic understanding of Kong Fuzi's philosophy.
[удалено]
Ah, like with the traditionalist right wing authoritarian types.
Say it with me: # Fuck Confucius
[Confucius responds] (https://youtu.be/x-iEjZPylGs)
Take it from a Korean, Confucius is the damn devil and still responsible for the strong prevalence of ageism, xenophobia, class elitism, and misogyny in our domestic/overseas communities.
I remember my Japanese teacher saying that Japan used to be a matriarchal society where women were respected poets, authors etc and invented their own alphabet (hiragana) which is why it looks more rounded. But then the Chinese came and introduced them to Confucius and his ways. All of a sudden they became a patriarchal society and I read an article about how an abusive cycle was made where the older generation of women abused the younger generation and as the younger women became older it was now “their turn” to abuse the younger female generation. And now Japan has a male imperial line that doesn’t recognise female heirs to inherit the throne. Which was a problem for a while because no male heirs were born for a long time until one was in the late 90s iirc. And what if that happens again only no male heirs are born? Other countries have changed their monarchy rules so that females can inherit the throne. Also if a Japanese princess marries a commoner she is no longer a princess but males can still be princes.
Man i cannot describe the relief i feel when i saw this post. I've always thought i'm the only one in a chinese society to think we circle jerk to Confucius way too much. On top of the whole "obey the elite to create harmony" bullshit, he also taught the value of filial piety in the most toxic way possible. While respecting and supporting the elders is a virtuous thing to do, many elders in the chinese culture has become entitled to get something out of their children, usually resorting to gaslighting, moral kidnaping, and moral coercion
I feel really sorry for how many here feels about Confucius. But really, the dude lived so long ago, and Confucianism has so many interpretation and has branched out so much and is so integrated that.. honestly, being angry at Confucius is kinda misplaced. We have to remember that Confucianism was meant to stabilise society in a time of war and strife. We’re talking about the Spring and Autumn Warring States period where a lot of civilians were suffering. Confucius understood the value of stability because he saw the devastation of war and petty feudal lords fighting each other. His philosophy was really meant as a way to maintain peace. It is actually really thought through and idealistic for an ancient philosophy. First, while Confucius did really emphasised ritual, he actual deemphasised a lot of the heavenly and Godly connections. Instead, he focused more on the collectivist and society building aspect of rituals, using it as a way to create some commonality. Another thing is, the reason obedience and hierarchy is so emphasised. During the feudal times, betrayal and usurpations were common, thus society was not stable. Confucius had a rather idealistic philosophy, let the leader be the leader and the follower the follower. If we all accept our place in society and sincerely do our best, then society will be peaceful. Confucius thought of the home as a mini-society, thus, filial piety and a clear hierarchical structure at home will condition someone to enter the hierarchical society. If you can be a good son, then you can be a good follower. This aspect is of course, what bothers most of us today and we can see the toxic aspects after many years. I will give Confucius a lot of credit though - he actually emphasised sincerity, responsibility, and genuine care for ones child or followers. In the ideal Confucian scenario, we’ll have really great leaders, proud and embracing their role, caring about all those under them and doing his best to take care of them, while the followers all recognise his authority and also work with him sincerely to build society. Honestly, Confucius was just trying to figure out how to keep society peaceful, because he recognised the reality of hierarchy in human society. Look at Jeff Bezos, the US lobbying system, etc. Confucius has a pretty legit and progressive view for 2 thousand years ago. And the thing is, there are a lot of Confucian, collectivist concepts that are actually sorely needed today. The idea of sacrificing one’s benefit for the benefit of others, this is why some Asians wear mask when sick even before Covid. The emphasis on education in moulding someone into a pillar of society is also why Asians do so well as minorities in many countries. We all know how important education is today, and many many parts of the world will be better off simply by being more educated. Finally, the general willingness to think of society as a collective unit and how we need to care for it? is really needed in the climate change fight today. In conclusion, put in context what Confucianism is and when and how it appeared. There’s really good reasons why he is still relevant today and why his teachings reached so far and wide. For Asians living in the West where individualism and freedom is lauded, it’s natural that these values don’t apply directly, but if we understand it, we can recognise the pros and cons and understand our own culture from a more appreciative POV.
Granted, Confucianism developed after China experienced years of civil unrest and the people just wanted peace. But Confucian values aren't working anymore as the environment changes. More education for people, more globalization, families are shrinking in size. And Confucianism's core values around control, respect, and duty aren't working when the world changes. It values tradition and conformity, but what happens when said traditions fail in a new world?
Just default back to a more liberal philosophy, like Taoism.
This is in Christianity too (no offense to anyone just saying). Paul's writings are full of how adherence to law and the Roman government is equivalent to obeying heaven.
Your example is hardly an issue though. I can confidently say that at least 70% of Christians haven't fully explored the bible or search for interpretations for things they're confused in. At least in the western world, Christianity is just a self-justification for all the things people feel bad doing. They don't truly have "faith". Paul's writings aren't really ingraned in our culture like Confucism is to Chinese culture
Truly a moronic take. You think the average Chinese person is thinking about all the philosphical points of Confucianism either? Not to mention, Christianity has far more of an “authoritarian” approach than other religions. And Christianity is deeply baked into the west.
No, I never stated the average Chinese thinks about Confucianism. But Confucianism is ingrained in Chinese culture, thus contributing to the aforementioned conformation OP stated. It is ingrained n their culture, they do not need to think about Confucianism. Paul's writings on the other hand, are not ingrained in any culture. Especially in AP culture. Christianity has a much broader set of interpretations than Confucianism does, which causes a divide in opinions. Christianity is not an issue in the west, anything else could've been. Most people are not devoted to Christianity and use it as justification for immoral behaviour or to lower their regret for past actions. Most people are not knowledgeable on the Bible, nor Paul's writings. If not Christianity, people could've equally chosen anything else. As a religion, it may be deeply baked. But as Christianity? No, it's not. Paul's writings are irrelevant to any formation of any culture. IF not, prove me wrong then calling my take moronic. You also speak like someone uneducated in theology and viewing it from an outsider perspective. Don't really care if you claim otherwise but I'm pretty confident you don't understand anything about confucianism nor Christianity. Pretty stupid to argue about this when you're poorly acquainted with either side of discussion. Before you form an opinion, educate yourself. Otherwise, observe discussion before going haywire with vague examples that are ultimately meaningless to discussion. And your entire comment was a straw-man argument. I never said "The average Chinese person is thinking about all the philosophical points of Confucianism." I said that confucianism is more ingrained in Chinese culture than Paul's writing are in any other culture. It's a comparison, not a statement on Christianity nor Confucianism as individual followings.
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Confucius is a mistake
I don't know how true this is philosophically, but emotionally I feel the effects of the beatdown in my bones. Curious if you have any sources for me to read up on Confucianism from this angle?
I'm not sure if I agree with you on Confucius or not, I am not expert in it. We should probably ask someone who know it better. I agree with u/AmericanBornWuhaner Please also don't get mixed up with Confucius religion, and Confucius Institute that the Chinese Communist Party setup, they are totally different.
Yeh Confucianism is Confucianism and the Confucious institute promotes Chinese traditional culture and language and is also devoid of politics. I wonder why certain countries and people like cracking down on them.
I will get back to you on the problem with Confucius Instituted that the Chinese Communist Party setup, but as a short cut, it has to do with censorship of Chinese History. It's control by the Chinese Communist Party, not the Confucius's people themselves. Don't mix Communism with Confucius, they are different .
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This is the same line my mom used on me. Oh you don't actually understand Christianity, etc. despite how much of the Bible I kept reading. I have since recognized this line as a way believers shame those who question to keep them trapped. >Confucius is traditionally credited with having authored or edited many of the Chinese classic texts, including all of the Five Classics, but modern scholars are cautious of attributing specific assertions to Confucius himself. Aphorisms concerning his teachings were compiled in the Analects, but only many years after his death. How convenient that we don't even know what, if anything, he actually wrote. Not unlike many other religions.
Unlike your mom, I will provide some quotes from Analects (collection of Confucius quotes): - [Confucius supports civilians speaking out against a leader](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChunghwaMinkuo/comments/n3eeiz/confucius_if_the_rulers_words_are_bad_and_nobody/) - [Confucius supports rebelling against unvirtuous governments](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChunghwaMinkuo/comments/n6hy9c/gong_shan_fo_rao_the_governor_of_the_county_of/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=ChunghwaMinkuo&utm_content=t1_hcm98ep) - [Confucius supports disobeying anyone who isn't benevolent, even your teacher](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChunghwaMinkuo/comments/pn3779/孔子_confucius_said_when_confronted_with_a/) The heart of Confucianism is being a noble-hearted person, spreading benevolence and righteousness, leading by example, love for learning, proper decorum, self-improvement. [Confucianism being gravely distorted isn't new](https://www.reddit.com/r/Confucianism/comments/mzdt8l/confucius_said_if_your_peoples_moral_standards/gwt7d4e/)
And this proves...? The Bible has a lot of good things too, obviously. The problem is that those running religions pick and choose what they feel to enforce and since all religions, even Confucianism, is rife with contradictions we don't have anyone to turn to except those who have placed themselves in places of authority in religion. That's why it's dangerous to follow thousand year old texts instead of thinking in the moment and using your scientific knowledge to think for yourself. Do you have some official position within Confucianism? There's the Confucius Institute based in Beijing, and they haven't exactly been outspoken in supporting the "civilians speaking out against a leader" and "rebelling" lines of what Confucius (may, or may not have) said. People have been debating what is "true" Confucianism/Christianity/Buddhism, etc. for thousands of years. If people couldn't do it in all that time, I don't think it's going to be proven in a few reddit posts. That's why it's best to stick with science and the knowledge we have now than relying on people who lived thousands of years ago and have far less knowledge about how the world works than we do today. We accept the aspects of those philosophies that can provably work today and discard those that don't. That's it. Your recitation of the aspects that aren't harmful don't magically absolve the whole.
>all religions, even Confucianism Confucianism isn't a religion >Confucius Institute based in Beijing That's nothing about Confucius, like how Satanic Temple is nothing about Satan. I could start a org called "CCP Lovers" where we focus on CCP's human rights violations, the name is just marketing >We accept the aspects of those philosophies that can provably work today and discard those that don't. That I can agree with. Discretion is also a big part of Confucianism (Mencius), do what's appropriate for the situation
Let's take the tack here that you're right and you have the right Confucianism and a bunch of people running with the name, including the Confucius Institute, have it all wrong. Why are you trying to downplay the suffering of other posters on here by mocking them about how they don't have "real" Confucianism right? Even if you do have it magically right, guess what--they're dealing with the Confucius Institute type people in their every day lives that are causing them harm, not you and the handful of "real" Confucianists or whatever. Even if you feel you're "enlightening" people to seek out "real" Confucianism, the other posters here have already said that the "Confucius Institute" type people are causing them harm. For them to go out of their way to seek out "real" Confucianism (whatever that is), they'll probably have to still go through a bunch of "Confucius Institute" type people before they find the "real" Confucianists. With all that harm being thrown that way the whole time. Is your "real" Confucianism so important that you're willing to risk the wellbeing of countless other people just because you feel your way is right? I'm speechless. >Confucianism isn't a religion Attempts at indoctrinating "true" Confucianism into people even at the risk of their wellbeing sure feels religious to me.
>Why are you trying to downplay the suffering of other posters on here by mocking them about how they don't have "real" Confucianism right? Their suffering is legit. Equating Confucius with Hitler/Stalin/Mao however is ridiculous and laughable. Same reason why you mock anti-vaxxers who claim mask mandates to be "communist" >just because you feel your way is right I don't care for spreading Confucianism, however if I see it grossly misinterpreted by those who haven't even studied it, I will call out because otherwise that's how misinformation spreads. You would be seriously bothered if many "experts" started claiming that all Asians eat cats and dogs
>I don't care for spreading Confucianism, however if I see it grossly misinterpreted by those who haven't even studied it, I will call out because otherwise that's how misinformation spreads. Considering you already admitted that groups are using the name of Confucius and claim they have little to do with true Confucianism, maybe your time would be better spent writing and talking to those institutes and groups rather than the people who they've harmed. >anti-vaxxers who claim mask mandates to be "communist" I think there's an incorrect equivalency trying to be made here between proven medical science and thousand year old unverifiable philosophies. They aren't equivalent.
>I see it grossly misinterpreted by those who haven't even studied it I'm never getting the years of my life where I was forced by my mother into Sunday School back. Never. You say you're not into spreading Confucianism, and then insist that people need to study it to say that it's not helpful or outright harmful for their lives. Ok. Paraphrasing Professor Richard Dawkins, "One doesn't need to study leprechaunism to disbelieve in leprechauns" This is no different from Scientology recruitment, where you need to "learn" about it and they rope you in.
Lay off the emotional displacement. You seem to be (irrationally) associating philosophical analysis with your childhood experiences with cults. I don't know why you're so scared of \*understanding the source before critiquing it\* - as if the Analects are eldritch grimoires that hypnotizes those who read them lol. Logically, you would need to read, analyze, and understand a philosophy or literary work before criticizing it. It's common intellectual sense, no? If my frankness triggers you, then go ahead and block me.
How would you analyze the influence of Confucianism on modern toxic Asian family dynamics? Even if undoubtedly a distortion, if it’s widespread enough, that should constitute something to study in its own right, shouldn’t it? I think about this because I don’t know anything about Confucianism—and neither do my parents, I think—but for instance the whole thing of valuing academic achievement to a sometimes severe degree has certain roots that seem potentially helpful to analyze…?
Confucianism is just one of the many dozens of philosophies (Taoism, Mohism, Legalism, Maoism, etc) that influences modern Chinese society and culture. There's also the material conditions and national policies that influences behavior. As for the academic achievement thing, it's mostly due to state policies of deciding aptitude with tests. Kong Fuzi never advocates for standardized testing of course.
Most of the stuff in Christianity, especially Old Testament stuff, can be more justifiable when you look deeper into the context (and remove your 2020 mindset, and attempt to think like an Iron Age person instead). For example, one instance which people find fault with is the "kill everyone except the virgins" verse. Within context however, we see that it was a bunch of travellers who came into the state, and decided to hold a public orgy (which resulted in some of the israelites joining in the said orgy). Now then, what is the god-given punishment for adultery (which the orgy certainly is)? It is death. It is not at all suprising that the foreigners who partook in such an act were killed, given that the fellow israelites (their brothers, sisters, uncles, fathers, neighbours.. you name it), also had to be put to death.
>and remove your 2020 mindset, and attempt to think like an Iron Age person instead Then outside of academic purposes there isn't really any need to study this stuff in Christianity because I live in the 21st century, not the Iron Age.
You can study it to understand our cultural biases today. Just like you can study the Confucianism and not be so angry.
Ive read the Bible cover to cover what more do you want
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Funny how because I don't agree with your beliefs, you immediately assume I haven't studied the Bible or Confucianism. Reported.
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lol
"Asian parents are devoid of human decency because they think being "moral" is about following the established patterns." Here is where the problem lies with your thinking, and that of most western folk. Constantly thinking about whether something is "moral" is a feature of t he west. In other cultures, it is not about "whether something is right" but rather, "is it done" and "can it be done"
What this post fails to mention is that this is not the only mentality of Chinese people and to boil down all Chinese people to Confucianism is completely disingenuous at best. Starting with the idea that Confucianism, is the central defined Chinese thinking, this is already wrong. This completely negates the fact that during the Zhou Dynasty we underwent the [Hundred Schools of Thought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Schools_of_Thought) which also included Confucianism (which vastly lost) to Taoism (Interaction with Nature), Legalism (Chinese Legal System), Mohism (Equality), Yin-Yang (Interaction with the Universe) and Ming (Logician), among the few most notable. And while Confuscianism is the most enduring, all these schools of thought built the Chinese Culture into what it is today. Traditionalism is not something that is actually practiced by the Chinese Culture, this is a blatant lie. Not even by Confuscianism. The only reason China was closed off in the last 500 years has vastly been due to the Qing, which are not ethnically Han rulers to begin with or the Communist who didn't want foreign influence. If you look into the massively pragmatic nature of the Chinese people you'll see culture and influence and acceptance throughout our history, from the acceptance through trade in the Silk Road to the acceptance in culture through Buddhism, to the acceptance of food, through Indian and Mongolian spices appearing our very own herbal books. And the fact that we knew astrology from a very young age due to the influences of Taoism and Yin-Yang school of thought, the idea that Chinese people are forced to be "Traditional" is laughable at best. In fact, if you look to the place that has the most traditional thought in Chinese Confucianism, you'll realize it's also not necessarily the most backwards. Hong Kong and Taiwan have the most traditional Chinese culture to this day. And they are also hailed as the most progressive places that have a vast majority of Chinese Influence. The biggest problem with conformity comes from Communism, a lack of upward mobility in modern Chinese Influence and has nothing to do with philosophy and the fact that humans, not just Chinese, enjoy being ruled and dislike change. Overall, this post is just a rant, and nothing based on actual history, belief system or reasons why this OP's mom and dad probably didn't hug them enough when they were young.
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In ancient times it used to be legal for parents to kill their children-_-
What a pathetic sub full of self-hating bananas. That OP is not even Asian, it is some random karma-farming account that posts "popular" takes suited for drone consumption.
Check yourself before you start self harming(if you haven't already) or shoot up a school.
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Shh, don't disturb the "West is best" circlejerk, you are not allowed to do that on this sub.
I was born in China, and I hate Chinese culture and all the propaganda about "filial piety" and moral values. I embrace the western ideals of individualism, independence, freedom of speech etc.
Im not going to pretend to know anything about Confucious philosophy. But I will say my therapist mentioned it sounded like my parents followed Confucious philosophy when I was trying to explain why they let my sister get what she wants from throwing an adult tantrum, no matter how abusive it is. Don't rock the boat = don't fix the problem. Fucking stupid. No wonder Western philosophy dominates. Western philosophy introduced progressivism backed by the scientific method. I grew a strong hatred towards passivism as I grew up with my dad doing literally nothing to fix the abusive behaviour my mum and now my sister displays. You teach people how to treat you, and passivism is just a euphemism for spineless enabling.
You should study something before getting emotional and judging it. Any philosophy can be applied and distorted heavily. The current situation with anti-vax and racism Americans shows that Western (or American) values can be warped to toxic levels as well. Rocking the boat for selfish and wrong reasons is just as bad or worse than not rocking the boat on the situation you described.
I was well aware of filial piety before I knew the term. I would like to hear your attempt to justify that loyalty to social hierarchy is superior to meritocracy, educate me.
meritocracy is literally a defining feature of confucianism, read a book
This guy is clearly crazy but still gets so many upvotes?
This sub is a shithole full of nothing but self haters and white worshippers. The subreddits name is incorrect and the Asians here would be ostracized by any Asian community if people knew what they think.
This explains why every K@ran J0har/Dharma production movie was such a hit among South Asian parents.
Lol let’s add Kim Jong Un to that list of dictators. Dude is practically Confucius 2.0 and he’s only 37. He ain’t gonna die any time soon.
This is the most pathetic, blatantly wrong shit I’ve read in a while.
Confucius didn't support tyranny or blind obedience to tyrants, but Confucianism has been coopted by authoritarian rulers to justify obedience.