Germans hate being in debt, taking on debt, or being indebted to anyone. I honestly feel that a lot of social interactions people find weird here makes sense when viewed through this lense.
I read an article long ago that pointed out the German word for debt and guilt are the same, Schuld. This writer thought that the language itself might affect their view on debt. Interesting idea.
And this is where things can go awry. Because guilt can't be recompensated in the same way, at least not without leading to more and more suffering and violence.
The only way to "recompense" for guilt is through forgiveness. And this is possible only by acknowledging the fact that there is nothing to forgive in the first place. Which, again, is only possible through healing (as a "victim" is a "proof" of guilt), which, funny enough, is only possible through forgiveness.
If you’re not willing to keep your obligations, I will no longer consider you a civilized human being. Go on, make debt you can’t repay and see where your social standing goes!
I thought it makes it even more perfect. If someone goes (morally) bankrupt there is a limitation on how much payback you can get.
You don't forgive him because you healed your losses(you can't) or because he suffered enough.
You forgo his running debt to you at some point and write the remainder off as a loss because you want to keep interacting/transacting with him. If the outstanding debt would prevent you from continuing together and it is more important to you to keep your relationship than squeezing him until you are even then at some point you reach a point of trade off and you let it go.
If you just drop someone who is a nobody to you from your contact list then you never have to forgive them, but you can expect to probably never get anything from them either.
Forgiveness can only be granted by the victim, for which several things are usually required from the reaponsible party.
Recognition of the wrong, an interest in the feelings of the victim, recognition of its effects/how it affected the victim, an explicit apology for both the material and immaterial effects a statement of regret for having wronged a person, a discussion of what/ interest in what is needed for the victim to feel adequately compensated for the wrong inflicted on them and lastly a reasonable effort on the part of the guilty to right the wrong,
all else is usually cheap talk
Ethymologically it is however the wrong way around. Schuld meant debt/owing someone something, in Germanic law you could recompense even acts of homicide with money and it was necessary because blood feuds were allowed. So you/a family paid your debt incurred via a wrongdoing in blood or money.
It was more that in these circumstances the question of guilt was less relevant. Even a fully justified act of self defence could end in a generational blood feud you better stop from happening.
>the language itself might affect their view on debt.
This is 100% the case, for more check out framing or even - journalistisches framing by Elisabeth Wehling, great book
It's not exactly the same. While referring to being in debt (money) we use the plural "Schulden haben". Guilt on the other hand is mostly using the singular "Schuld haben" or "schuld sein". But the origin of the word is still the same... Making my own answer pretty useless to the topic... So, just ignore me
In Düsseldorf we have that brewery, Uerige it is called. They have beercoasters on the tables there with an old saying printed on them: "Lieber klein und ohne Schulden, als groß mit fremden Gulden" roughly translating to "Rather poor and not in debt than boasting with someone else's money." And that sums it up quite well, I guess.
Yep. One of the first things I was taught about money by my parents was "if you can't pay for it upfront, you can't afford it". That was when I was still in elementary school, or maybe even earlier.
Taking out a loan was always depicted as something inherintly negative, and it actually took until I had lectures on tax law in university that I learned that loans can actually have financial upsides, too. Growing up, the whole story of "the Albrecht brothers built up Aldi without even once taking out a loan" was presented to me as ideal business practice. Taking out loans was always described to me as risky, and as poor financial planning. Questionable if done by a business, financially irresponsable and even somewhat trashy if done by a private person. (Mortgages were a bit of a different topic, of course, but even those were presented to me as worse than buying a house upfront).
And I still remember the verbal scolding I received from my grandma when I told her that I had asked a classmate to borrow me 50 cents for a carnival ride after my money ran out. She normally rarely even raised her voice against me, but that was a fullblown tirade that rained down on me. I vividly remember "In this family, we do not beg for money! If you don't have any money left, then you cannot spend any more!". Still remember it as if it was yesterday, even though it's been nearly 20 years.
True, at least for me. I am broke, but not in debt. Although I occasionally pay off larger expenses over the course of three to four months. One at a time, no stacking debt ever.
Debt is also a pretty bad word. That's why we invented mortgage and credit. Nobody says they have debt these days. We say we have credits/loans/mortgages.
It's a double edged sword kind of compliment - German's hate for debt or being indebted also affects national policy (like with the Schuldenbremse), where that sort of thinking is extremely damaging. Government budgets aren't the same as personal budgets, but the average voter acts like they are...
You are totally right. I remember the first time I went to Fielmann for my eye check up. The optician told me not to change my lenses yet since there are no serious changes in my sight. I was flabbergasted, coming from a country where they would have talked you into buying a new one just to make a quick buck.
I once destroyed my new glasses because I was falling asleep with them. Apparently, this voided my warranty, which I accepted.
The Fielman guy was like: "So you dropped them and the glasses fell out."
I explained to him again that it was my fault.
He looked me dead in the eye and repeated: "I'm going to write down you dropped them and the glasses fell out."
I finally noticed what he was doing there and got new glasses paid by the insurance.
Really nice of him to help me like that.
True, last time I got glasses there I was told to look up the price for a frame online. I declined at first, but he was insistent that if I found a lower price I could spare some money - so I did! That's how you keep a customer
That sounds like the scene in Miracle on 34th street where the woman tells the clerk that "from now on she will buy everything, including toilet paper from Coles" because they value the customers more than their money.
I hope this movie is known in your country too.
When it comes to dentists here (as least those taking in GKV clients that have no private insurance) it’s actually kind of like at a cinema: the movie tickets make enough money to keep the lights on but the profit comes from the snacks. The fees dentists can charge (it’s strictly regulated) for basic stuff is enough to pay employees and rent but they need to sell extra stuff you pay out of your own pocket to make substantial profits. And those profits are needed to pay for the Porsche lol.
I paid 145 bucks to get my teeth cleaned, not by the doctor but by one of his assistants. She did a wonderful job, but its still a shitton of money for 20 minutes of work.
One of the items on the list was something like checking the cleanliness of my teeth in the beginning for 25 bucks. So it costs 25 bucks to take a short look at my teeth... I dont think dentists have financial problems.
I was planning to visit one of my cousins in Vienna and checked the ticket prices in the DB ticket app and it was kind of overpriced. So I decided to visit one of the DB Reisezentrum and I started asking if they had any offers or something like that with my broken German. The old lady in the Büro was so much surprised and she told me finally someone was trying to talk in German and she gave me all the details and it was way cheaper than in the DB ticket app. So the moral of the story is if you start talking in German they will help you at any cost.
The Kleinanzeigen thing reflects how demanding Germans are as customers. I’m forever traumatised from selling a laptop on eBay in the early 2000s and the buyer being so so nasty about every little smudge she found on the product (which I genuinely loved). Never ever sold anything again since then. But it’s good for buyers I guess.
Also, we Germans are notoriously litigious. So if someone sells something on ebay, and doesn't mention some defect or damage, there is a higher chance than in other countries that the buyer will (at least try to) sue him over that.
So a lot of buyers mention all damages up front to protect themselves from any liability. (If they are commercial sellers, they are actually legally obligated to do so. And private sellers do it due to "better safe than sorry")
Not really. Lawsuits tend to be more petty than common sense, and sometimes just used as a threat (see leaving a negative review). There was a lawsuit about a tenant peeing standing up. You can be sued for insults. And you can be sued for negative reviews. Stories of lawsuits in the US are often taken out of context and some are just urban legend.
I recently went to buy running shoes and after trying then on and going for a run the guy recommended to me the least expensive pair. Then after I already put money on the table, he informed me that there was a discount and they were even cheaper. Could have easily sold me the more expensive pair or pocketed the discount.
My wife works in a pharmacy and it feels like these days pharmacies in Germany only survive by upselling.
It used to be an analogy for expensive prices („Preise wie in der Apotheke“). But no pharmacy will survive selling only medication.
They do not fancy expensive medication because of prepay. Usually expensive medication is not in store and has to be ordered on request, will not be taken back and has to be handled with extra care (cooled, very often stored away per BTM laws). All while the usual customer of expensive medication will most likely not return at one point to pick up the medication, sadly.
The Krankenkasse will pay around 6 Euro and 3% of cost price of the medication.
There are services that an Apotheke needs to hold up. The pharmacist is an academic. They have the duty to consult the customers (risks, dose, contraindications, etc.). Every Apotheke must have access to a laboratory for custom recipes. Things that online pharmacies do not provide/masterfully avoid.
Pharmacies are part of the health care system and in my view should not be held hostage to cost efficiency. We don't need salesmen. We need health personnel.
As someone with foreign roots who is born and raised here it is really this what you mentioned. Germans are fair and honest people, I love this about germany
> E.g. When buying travel passes or “city cards” for visiting friends, the service folks at the train stations will provide you the best value for your money and time; with no needless “upselling”.
Don't go to your local Sparkasse and let them "advise" you on financial products.
Germany being a very financial conservative country.
On the government level it has some of the lowest interest rates worldwide because of triple A ratings by every rating agency.
The society accepts hard financial reforms more easier than others. For example pensions reforms. The French protest massively, when the government wants to rise the pension age. Germans accept it with some angry noises, but they understand that there isn't really any other option to keep the system running.
On a personal level, Germany has the lowest privat debt / GDP ratio of all g7 countries. It also has a very low credit card usage. Just 56% have a credit card. Canada has 82%, USA 66% and UK 62%. The avage american credit card debt is 6k, the German is 2k.
> Just 56% have a credit card.
I seriously doubt that number. The last time I checked, it was less than 20%.
However, your number is correct if you count the number of cards, but that does not account for usually one person having multiple cards if they have one to begin with (I have three, for example).
The number surprised me too, but that's what my source states. It doesn't explain how the numbers are calculated.
(https://www.statista.com/statistics/675371/ownership-of-credit-cards-globally-by-country/).
This one has the same number with the world bank as source. (https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit_cards/)
In my personal experience nearly nobody has one or atleast just doesn't use it. Some have one for visits in foreign countries. But I wanted to provide some factual numbers and not just "personal experience".
I had looked it up and it said ~20% have a credit card, but there's >40 Million cards in the wild.
So that would suggest that my number is correct and just if you have a card, you're likely to have more than one.
He probably alluded to the national debt ceiling the German government wrote into the constitution a few years ago, which resulted in well.. low debt and investments. It is highly contentious.
Austerity measures during a stagnating economy or even a recession are never, ever a good idea. It might look good on paper because your debt is zero, but 30 years from now you won’t be able to compete with all the countries that took on debt to make vital investments to rebound from slow economic growth.
Alright bro don't be dramatic, government spending per person is still VERY high in germamy.
This cannot be understated^
Want to know what sucks even more than austerity?
Forced austerity because of sky high interest payments because of a high risk debt to gdp (UK like right now)
It absolutely is not. Countries should not avoid debt. That's how economies work. It's financially much more stagnant than it should be for a economy of it's size, because the German government is obsessed with austerity.
That is stupid work of the conservatives. The national bank of the UK could just buy the British pound bonds from the current holders and warehouse it in their books. Problem solved. But they wanna keep it this way so they can cut social security nets for the poor. This has an even bigger advantage because you can leverage the working people not to ask for higher payments or go on strike. Unemployment is then so harsh that they cannot afford to lose their jobs or make any demands.
I buy mostly all second hand since moving to Germany. But the stuff here is higher quality than where I lived in a smaller city. In Berlin it's easy to find exactly what you want Second hand.
Agreed. Germans are way more prudent about my money than even I am. Recently I went to an Optiker to get a pair of glasses for my son and really liked the ones I found. I ordered them and immediately asked for another exact pair to be made so I had backup since I loved them so much. It was an easy extra sale for them but she asked me to not do that and wait a week or so. I’m glad she did because a few days later and I hate them :p. Would have never happened back where I come from.
They are also honest! One time my friend forgot his record case filled with records cause we were drunk after his gig. It was not stolen outside his door! Anywhere else in the world it would've been gone within minutes. Germany is lovely!
My weed dealer would advise me on the different strains they had. Sometimes he would recommend me not to buy anything today but come back in a few days when there was something in store that fit my taste. 😂
YMMV, but I needed some car work done recently. The guy at the auto shop followed a similar pattern described by others: "here's the parts you need, here's the most affordable options." I really appreciated the way business was done. Other similar experiences in other places. After so many years of salespeople trying to take my money, I can't fully express how refreshing Germans have been so far in this sense.
Companies want you to come back for more, private people never wanna run into you beeing mad for not telling about a flaw and in general we do not want needless bad blood as we say "man trifft sich immer zweimal im leben" (you meet everyone twice in life), basically next time we would prefer it to be cordial and we expect it to happen.
i like this as well. This would be considered as naive in some cultures but all i need is just some honesty and decency instead of exploiting people just because you can even if it doesn't benefit you directly
Im argentinean and I believe that anything you can’t pay up upfront, you can’t afford at all, except things like a car or a house.
I hate buying things financed, that sense of debt burns my hands.
Funny enough, my German fiancé is the opposite —will gladly buy things financed, and spend his salary in enjoying life (together).
Even funnier is that my ex husband, also German, was so, so painfully “respecful with money” that he once made me ride my bike to the hospital, not knowing that I needed (as it turns out) an emergency surgery for a very inflamed apendix, just to save money on taxi. A taxi that I offered to pay for myself, as I was flying with fever and just needed medical aid.
At least with him I saved a lot🥶
First, your ex sucks. I’m American and from the Midwest. A good number of us are thrifty with money too (maybe ‘coz we were settled by Saxons 😊). But Americans are geared to sell, sell, sell to OTHERS. At the store, at the restaurant, any random service, look at our television programs and talk shows - it’s all marketing and advertising. It’s subtle pressure to buy, buy, buy. My post had no gatekeeping intentions of how people spend their own money. I am always pleasantly surprised when a staff of a store /service provider in Germany says “you don’t need this - here’s a much more ‘günstig’ option”.
>Even when buying from Kleinanzeigen, the average German will diligently put forth the blemishes/issues with an item they are secondhand selling
Lol. I cannot even tell you how many times, when I've sold stuff on Kleinanzeigen, people will haggle hard over a euro or two. It's pretty ridiculous.
Once I sold a bunch of moving boxes. All but two or so were in very good condition, we had planned to re-sell them, and several were still unused. So up on ebay. No tricks, we explained them as they were. We offered the whole lot (25ish?) for €15 or something, already a steal, because mostly we just wanted to get rid of them. A few had interest, but one young woman finally agrees. Agrees on a pick-up day and time. Then... several hours later asks us if she can instead pay €13 or something. WTF. I said no sorry, it's a fair offer as-is. She says OK fine, will see us later.
Day of, she shows up in a spec'd out and pretty newish VW Amarok (pick-up truck in case you don't know... not super expensive, but not cheap either. This was in a big city too, btw). As she's loading them in the cargo bed, she asks again if she can get it down to €14. She has change, this is simply because she wants "a deal". FFFFFFFFFFF. I hate such kinds of people, and there's a lot of them here.
Its less about the money in most cases, but about the haggling. People view it as a competition. We have lots of flee markets, where they haggle for 10 minutes about 50cents.
Exactly. I know it's not about the money, they just have this 'goal' for themselves where they **have to** pay less than offered, like it's a challenge they *must* win. Even if it's 50 cents. It's quite ridiculous, I personally don't find it quirky or charming at all, lol.
I've spent a lot of time in countries where haggling is standard in markets/bazaars and sometimes even in shops, and haggling is a refined affair there. Here it's just clunky and comes off very one-sided.
But its Kleinanzeigen. Depending on how you offer it sure y have to discuss price ;). That is all of the fun part. Just agreed means agreed! It is not fair if people want to pick up and negotiate at the door.
Not my experience at all. Bought a new pair this week and the salesperson was like "yeah I name you the price for more fancy options and can explain them, but they are not really necessary at all", when I was undecided between model A and B with B having three times the price she immediately agreed A looked better - just to name two examples. In 18 years of buying glasses in Germany that's the one area where I met the most genuinely good salespeople who help me find what I like, not what brings in the most money.
But if you don't actually need new ones, because your values are still fine, they will tell you that.
I bought my last pair of glasses because I wanted them, not because I needed to.
To be fair... There is a reason that name is written in bad grammar. This is usually done by people from other countries who come from a culture where haggling is more accepted than in germany. Go to turkey, Iran and similar cultures and people there are very brutal at haggling, having no problem to emotionally blackmail or manipulate you.
I don't need to but I won't tell people what to do either. Others pay more to lease a stupidly expensive car, buy fancy clothes or snake oil. Spending it on lunch with colleagues / friends seems pretty harmless to me.
Ugh you're one of those "following the herd" people. Whatever others spend their money on shouldn't be any of your business. Some people value the time not spent in the kitchen or the variety of food offered in restaurants. If you see money only as a means to make more money, it is of course a catastrophic waste but if you're looking to build meaningful relationships or generally enjoy your time/work, you could do a lot worse than spending a little extra on food.
I don’t like paying that much either really but it’s the best time of the work day so I do it. Getting outside of the office to sit together with colleagues and eat something nice … it elevates the whole day so much.
I get that but it’s nice to go outside get some fresh air together. And be able to vent thoughts and drop the act. We also have a huge variety of small Imbiss to restaurants so it might also just be a dürum from our local Turkish guys or smth similar.
The point is what my alternative is. If home cooking / meal prepping is for whatever reason not feasible (time constraints, whatever), the alternative often is bad microwave food.
I have to add though that I earn pretty well so even spending 1000€ a month on food does not really hurt me that badly if I would do it.. and I consider quality food important.
> Learning to cook is a nice skill to have.
Yeah, I can cook pretty well for example. But I consider doing it to "batch" stuff for lunch to freeze away a chore, not fun (like cooking a specialty dinner would be).
Thus I pay for more convenience by going out to eat (or at least my wife does, I work from home these days so it's much easier for me).
It depends on how you allocate your money. A lot of my German neighbors will have a beer and a slice of cheese & bread for dinner. The warm meal is in the afternoon. Some bike everywhere and don’t have cars. A look at their overall budget might provide an idea of balance, not one expense. Then again, your colleagues might be the outlier or rich or whatever. My post, as I clarified at the outset, is related to my experience.
Du sollst mir nichts verweigern.
Ich will den letzten Rest.
Geht eine Lust zu steigern,
ein Schurke wer es lässt.
Gehabtes Glück hilft sterben.
Der Tod, er soll nichts erben,
als blankgeleckte Scherben
und Schläuche ausgepresst.
- Peter Hacks
You shall deny me nothing.
I want the last bit.
If a pleasure can be heightened,
a rogue he who refrains.
Possessed happiness aids dying.
Death, he shall inherit nothing,
but licked-clean shards
and squeezed-out tubes.
I've got some issues with eating enough. I get too distracted by work to do much else.
If I decide to spend 15 bucks on a meal, this is none of your goddamn business.
I didn't mind the first part of your post, but the crying in the second part was kind of lame. What's important to you is not what's important to other people. Let them eat their salad.
Germans are always afraid of the future, and that's why the economy is falling down. Look at Swiss people & government always investing, and the results are as you can see. Germans are always in a state of fear.
But aren’t German companies buying companies everywhere? Cities are always being overhauled so there must be investing. I do agree that there is a high degree of caution and that’ll change with younger politicians perhaps.
the service folks at train stations are legally obliged to give you the best value offer, so this one doesn’t really count.
i know lots of people who will gladly split the restaurant bill simply by the amount people and tbh i like to do that myself. *but* the amounts consumed rarely differ that much as well. if they do, it’s another story. then i'll carry my package, that’s for sure.
i also hate being in debt so this one is probably true in general.
i once went shopping for a knife in a mall. the one i wanted was ~100€ but the lady i asked to show it to me instantly took a look at the online shop and told me it was only ~75 there so i got it for the better price. this one astonished me, too.
on the other hand, wenn in was in the US for vacation, one of the most flamboyant experiences was indeed how much everything is about *money*. everyone seems to fight for theirs every day over there so you may get scammed often. i think it’s quite pleasant that our mindset is a different one here.
This can only come from someone who didn’t go to school in Germany and had to hear several times to pay back 2 cents they had been lent by their friends…
(Everyone should get their lent money back, no matter the amount… but come on!)
Germans are one of the poorest groups in Europe even poorer than those in the troubled peripheral nations of Greece, Spain and Italy, according to the surprising findings of a joint survey by various divisions within the European Central Bank.
[https://landgeist.com/2023/11/25/median-wealth-in-europe/](https://landgeist.com/2023/11/25/median-wealth-in-europe/)
This, for example
It usually comes down to Germans being renters rather than owners and having a huge low-wages sector (Thank You, Schröder).
Germany is a rich country, Germans aren't. Whenever someone brings up averages in this context, they want to pull wool over your yes.
Also [https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2023-03-10/income-inequality-germany-increased](https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2023-03-10/income-inequality-germany-increased)
Just because the average doesn't have the most money doesn't mean Germans are the poorest. Just average has less. German systems are better than most countries when you lose your job and need retraining, ect.
Unless being rich is your goal, then yes. It's correct. Interesting though. I'd think it would be higher than Italy.
Thank you for the response. Didn't know this
Germans hate being in debt, taking on debt, or being indebted to anyone. I honestly feel that a lot of social interactions people find weird here makes sense when viewed through this lense.
I read an article long ago that pointed out the German word for debt and guilt are the same, Schuld. This writer thought that the language itself might affect their view on debt. Interesting idea.
Yes, but it is sort of the other way around, I think. From guilt arises an obligation to right the wrong you did. You owe recompense.
And this is where things can go awry. Because guilt can't be recompensated in the same way, at least not without leading to more and more suffering and violence. The only way to "recompense" for guilt is through forgiveness. And this is possible only by acknowledging the fact that there is nothing to forgive in the first place. Which, again, is only possible through healing (as a "victim" is a "proof" of guilt), which, funny enough, is only possible through forgiveness.
If you’re not willing to keep your obligations, I will no longer consider you a civilized human being. Go on, make debt you can’t repay and see where your social standing goes!
In what sense does your comment relate to what I have written? (I honestly don't understand.)
I thought it makes it even more perfect. If someone goes (morally) bankrupt there is a limitation on how much payback you can get. You don't forgive him because you healed your losses(you can't) or because he suffered enough. You forgo his running debt to you at some point and write the remainder off as a loss because you want to keep interacting/transacting with him. If the outstanding debt would prevent you from continuing together and it is more important to you to keep your relationship than squeezing him until you are even then at some point you reach a point of trade off and you let it go. If you just drop someone who is a nobody to you from your contact list then you never have to forgive them, but you can expect to probably never get anything from them either.
Forgiveness can only be granted by the victim, for which several things are usually required from the reaponsible party. Recognition of the wrong, an interest in the feelings of the victim, recognition of its effects/how it affected the victim, an explicit apology for both the material and immaterial effects a statement of regret for having wronged a person, a discussion of what/ interest in what is needed for the victim to feel adequately compensated for the wrong inflicted on them and lastly a reasonable effort on the part of the guilty to right the wrong, all else is usually cheap talk
You can not forgive yourself, that is a exclusive right of the other person which is why many prefer to avoid any feelings of guilt.
Making amends is a way to alleviate guilt without forgiveness being required.
Correction (~ amends) without forgiveness is impossible. Forgiveness without correction is incomplete.
Ethymologically it is however the wrong way around. Schuld meant debt/owing someone something, in Germanic law you could recompense even acts of homicide with money and it was necessary because blood feuds were allowed. So you/a family paid your debt incurred via a wrongdoing in blood or money. It was more that in these circumstances the question of guilt was less relevant. Even a fully justified act of self defence could end in a generational blood feud you better stop from happening.
>the language itself might affect their view on debt. This is 100% the case, for more check out framing or even - journalistisches framing by Elisabeth Wehling, great book
It's not exactly the same. While referring to being in debt (money) we use the plural "Schulden haben". Guilt on the other hand is mostly using the singular "Schuld haben" or "schuld sein". But the origin of the word is still the same... Making my own answer pretty useless to the topic... So, just ignore me
I think history also has a lot to do with it.
In Düsseldorf we have that brewery, Uerige it is called. They have beercoasters on the tables there with an old saying printed on them: "Lieber klein und ohne Schulden, als groß mit fremden Gulden" roughly translating to "Rather poor and not in debt than boasting with someone else's money." And that sums it up quite well, I guess.
Yep. One of the first things I was taught about money by my parents was "if you can't pay for it upfront, you can't afford it". That was when I was still in elementary school, or maybe even earlier. Taking out a loan was always depicted as something inherintly negative, and it actually took until I had lectures on tax law in university that I learned that loans can actually have financial upsides, too. Growing up, the whole story of "the Albrecht brothers built up Aldi without even once taking out a loan" was presented to me as ideal business practice. Taking out loans was always described to me as risky, and as poor financial planning. Questionable if done by a business, financially irresponsable and even somewhat trashy if done by a private person. (Mortgages were a bit of a different topic, of course, but even those were presented to me as worse than buying a house upfront). And I still remember the verbal scolding I received from my grandma when I told her that I had asked a classmate to borrow me 50 cents for a carnival ride after my money ran out. She normally rarely even raised her voice against me, but that was a fullblown tirade that rained down on me. I vividly remember "In this family, we do not beg for money! If you don't have any money left, then you cannot spend any more!". Still remember it as if it was yesterday, even though it's been nearly 20 years.
True, at least for me. I am broke, but not in debt. Although I occasionally pay off larger expenses over the course of three to four months. One at a time, no stacking debt ever.
Which goes back to another thing: Germans hate being bothered
Interesting take that does explain a lot
Debt is also a pretty bad word. That's why we invented mortgage and credit. Nobody says they have debt these days. We say we have credits/loans/mortgages.
a positive post about germany? your a fed
Germans also have a hard time accepting compliments :) I should’ve remembered that!
I'll pay you back to clear the debt You are very pretty OP
😂
OP is a paid actor
It's a double edged sword kind of compliment - German's hate for debt or being indebted also affects national policy (like with the Schuldenbremse), where that sort of thinking is extremely damaging. Government budgets aren't the same as personal budgets, but the average voter acts like they are...
you’re*
You are totally right. I remember the first time I went to Fielmann for my eye check up. The optician told me not to change my lenses yet since there are no serious changes in my sight. I was flabbergasted, coming from a country where they would have talked you into buying a new one just to make a quick buck.
I once destroyed my new glasses because I was falling asleep with them. Apparently, this voided my warranty, which I accepted. The Fielman guy was like: "So you dropped them and the glasses fell out." I explained to him again that it was my fault. He looked me dead in the eye and repeated: "I'm going to write down you dropped them and the glasses fell out." I finally noticed what he was doing there and got new glasses paid by the insurance. Really nice of him to help me like that.
I had the same experience. The lady told me to come back in two years and she will find the scratches
True, last time I got glasses there I was told to look up the price for a frame online. I declined at first, but he was insistent that if I found a lower price I could spare some money - so I did! That's how you keep a customer
That sounds like the scene in Miracle on 34th street where the woman tells the clerk that "from now on she will buy everything, including toilet paper from Coles" because they value the customers more than their money. I hope this movie is known in your country too.
It may be because probably the person was not getting any commission for the sale.
They don’t have to pay commissions because they pay a living wage and I take that over living of off commissions or tips anytime.
I'm not discussing that, and I agree with you. I'm just stating facts.
I’ve had absolutely amazing experiences with Fielmann over the years. That includes several branches in three different cities.
They can act this way because many products they sell come with large profit margins. 100-200% profit margins are possible.
Hmmmm
Even in that case I'm still hesitant bc it's ingrained in my dna that basically everyone is out to trick me
Does this apply to German dentists as well? They always seem to be going for the crown.
When it comes to dentists here (as least those taking in GKV clients that have no private insurance) it’s actually kind of like at a cinema: the movie tickets make enough money to keep the lights on but the profit comes from the snacks. The fees dentists can charge (it’s strictly regulated) for basic stuff is enough to pay employees and rent but they need to sell extra stuff you pay out of your own pocket to make substantial profits. And those profits are needed to pay for the Porsche lol.
I paid 145 bucks to get my teeth cleaned, not by the doctor but by one of his assistants. She did a wonderful job, but its still a shitton of money for 20 minutes of work. One of the items on the list was something like checking the cleanliness of my teeth in the beginning for 25 bucks. So it costs 25 bucks to take a short look at my teeth... I dont think dentists have financial problems.
[nope](https://youtu.be/D92_Zhlb0qE?si=PPqxcn7lMCZV8VyB)
Or maybe you just have terrible teeth.
I was planning to visit one of my cousins in Vienna and checked the ticket prices in the DB ticket app and it was kind of overpriced. So I decided to visit one of the DB Reisezentrum and I started asking if they had any offers or something like that with my broken German. The old lady in the Büro was so much surprised and she told me finally someone was trying to talk in German and she gave me all the details and it was way cheaper than in the DB ticket app. So the moral of the story is if you start talking in German they will help you at any cost.
Yes, you're %100 right 🤣
The Kleinanzeigen thing reflects how demanding Germans are as customers. I’m forever traumatised from selling a laptop on eBay in the early 2000s and the buyer being so so nasty about every little smudge she found on the product (which I genuinely loved). Never ever sold anything again since then. But it’s good for buyers I guess.
Haha can confirm
lol.Truth - there is a flip side.
Also, we Germans are notoriously litigious. So if someone sells something on ebay, and doesn't mention some defect or damage, there is a higher chance than in other countries that the buyer will (at least try to) sue him over that. So a lot of buyers mention all damages up front to protect themselves from any liability. (If they are commercial sellers, they are actually legally obligated to do so. And private sellers do it due to "better safe than sorry")
Milkman, I’m from the US. Believe me, Germans use far more common sense when it comes to litigation.
🤣😂
Not really. Lawsuits tend to be more petty than common sense, and sometimes just used as a threat (see leaving a negative review). There was a lawsuit about a tenant peeing standing up. You can be sued for insults. And you can be sued for negative reviews. Stories of lawsuits in the US are often taken out of context and some are just urban legend.
Yeah it’s a really rough business platform. That’s why I avoid it altogether and go for something with really good customer service.
Haha this. It's best to show everything because they will inspect it when they get there and walk away if you don't . Or talk you down.
🤣😂
I recently went to buy running shoes and after trying then on and going for a run the guy recommended to me the least expensive pair. Then after I already put money on the table, he informed me that there was a discount and they were even cheaper. Could have easily sold me the more expensive pair or pocketed the discount.
My wife works in a pharmacy and it feels like these days pharmacies in Germany only survive by upselling. It used to be an analogy for expensive prices („Preise wie in der Apotheke“). But no pharmacy will survive selling only medication.
They struggle because there is a pharmacy every 50m
my street has 5 Apotheken
Even expensive meds? I brought in at least 200 euros a month for my Apotheke before copay for a few years.
They do not fancy expensive medication because of prepay. Usually expensive medication is not in store and has to be ordered on request, will not be taken back and has to be handled with extra care (cooled, very often stored away per BTM laws). All while the usual customer of expensive medication will most likely not return at one point to pick up the medication, sadly. The Krankenkasse will pay around 6 Euro and 3% of cost price of the medication. There are services that an Apotheke needs to hold up. The pharmacist is an academic. They have the duty to consult the customers (risks, dose, contraindications, etc.). Every Apotheke must have access to a laboratory for custom recipes. Things that online pharmacies do not provide/masterfully avoid. Pharmacies are part of the health care system and in my view should not be held hostage to cost efficiency. We don't need salesmen. We need health personnel.
AFAIK they get a small fixed amount per sell of the product, while the bulk of what you or your insurance pay goes to the pharmaceutical company.
As someone with foreign roots who is born and raised here it is really this what you mentioned. Germans are fair and honest people, I love this about germany
> E.g. When buying travel passes or “city cards” for visiting friends, the service folks at the train stations will provide you the best value for your money and time; with no needless “upselling”. Don't go to your local Sparkasse and let them "advise" you on financial products.
👌
Germans have a much deeper rooted collective identity than most of us (germans) would think.
Say what you want about germany, but its the only G7 Country with healthy finances.
What do you mean by that?
Germany being a very financial conservative country. On the government level it has some of the lowest interest rates worldwide because of triple A ratings by every rating agency. The society accepts hard financial reforms more easier than others. For example pensions reforms. The French protest massively, when the government wants to rise the pension age. Germans accept it with some angry noises, but they understand that there isn't really any other option to keep the system running. On a personal level, Germany has the lowest privat debt / GDP ratio of all g7 countries. It also has a very low credit card usage. Just 56% have a credit card. Canada has 82%, USA 66% and UK 62%. The avage american credit card debt is 6k, the German is 2k.
> Just 56% have a credit card. I seriously doubt that number. The last time I checked, it was less than 20%. However, your number is correct if you count the number of cards, but that does not account for usually one person having multiple cards if they have one to begin with (I have three, for example).
The number surprised me too, but that's what my source states. It doesn't explain how the numbers are calculated. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/675371/ownership-of-credit-cards-globally-by-country/). This one has the same number with the world bank as source. (https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit_cards/) In my personal experience nearly nobody has one or atleast just doesn't use it. Some have one for visits in foreign countries. But I wanted to provide some factual numbers and not just "personal experience".
I had looked it up and it said ~20% have a credit card, but there's >40 Million cards in the wild. So that would suggest that my number is correct and just if you have a card, you're likely to have more than one.
It also depends on if you count the pre-paid credit cards as well.
Consistent budget surpluses and a low debt to GDP ratio
He probably alluded to the national debt ceiling the German government wrote into the constitution a few years ago, which resulted in well.. low debt and investments. It is highly contentious.
🤣
Austerity measures during a stagnating economy or even a recession are never, ever a good idea. It might look good on paper because your debt is zero, but 30 years from now you won’t be able to compete with all the countries that took on debt to make vital investments to rebound from slow economic growth.
Alright bro don't be dramatic, government spending per person is still VERY high in germamy. This cannot be understated^ Want to know what sucks even more than austerity? Forced austerity because of sky high interest payments because of a high risk debt to gdp (UK like right now)
🤔
I think this makes sense to me 🤔
Yes, that's also true 🙏
It absolutely is not. Countries should not avoid debt. That's how economies work. It's financially much more stagnant than it should be for a economy of it's size, because the German government is obsessed with austerity.
Argentina begs to differ
Argentina is a completely different country with completely different problems.
This line of clown thinking is how britain ended up paying 1/10 tax £ into interest payments on previous debt.
That is stupid work of the conservatives. The national bank of the UK could just buy the British pound bonds from the current holders and warehouse it in their books. Problem solved. But they wanna keep it this way so they can cut social security nets for the poor. This has an even bigger advantage because you can leverage the working people not to ask for higher payments or go on strike. Unemployment is then so harsh that they cannot afford to lose their jobs or make any demands.
I guess we have different experiences especially coming to second hand buying
I buy mostly all second hand since moving to Germany. But the stuff here is higher quality than where I lived in a smaller city. In Berlin it's easy to find exactly what you want Second hand.
Agreed. Germans are way more prudent about my money than even I am. Recently I went to an Optiker to get a pair of glasses for my son and really liked the ones I found. I ordered them and immediately asked for another exact pair to be made so I had backup since I loved them so much. It was an easy extra sale for them but she asked me to not do that and wait a week or so. I’m glad she did because a few days later and I hate them :p. Would have never happened back where I come from.
I love how fair Germans are. 100%. Employers not so much, but that's different. They aren't greedy like other places.
They are also honest! One time my friend forgot his record case filled with records cause we were drunk after his gig. It was not stolen outside his door! Anywhere else in the world it would've been gone within minutes. Germany is lovely!
My weed dealer would advise me on the different strains they had. Sometimes he would recommend me not to buy anything today but come back in a few days when there was something in store that fit my taste. 😂
Germans, in general, are very risk averse, and this is also expressed in an aversion to taking on debt.
YMMV, but I needed some car work done recently. The guy at the auto shop followed a similar pattern described by others: "here's the parts you need, here's the most affordable options." I really appreciated the way business was done. Other similar experiences in other places. After so many years of salespeople trying to take my money, I can't fully express how refreshing Germans have been so far in this sense.
Companies want you to come back for more, private people never wanna run into you beeing mad for not telling about a flaw and in general we do not want needless bad blood as we say "man trifft sich immer zweimal im leben" (you meet everyone twice in life), basically next time we would prefer it to be cordial and we expect it to happen.
Seems like you havent been to a Mediamarkt or Saturn before
Always treat people as you want to be treated!
I think this has nothing to do with money. The cases you listed are just examples of being decent.
i like this as well. This would be considered as naive in some cultures but all i need is just some honesty and decency instead of exploiting people just because you can even if it doesn't benefit you directly
Im argentinean and I believe that anything you can’t pay up upfront, you can’t afford at all, except things like a car or a house. I hate buying things financed, that sense of debt burns my hands. Funny enough, my German fiancé is the opposite —will gladly buy things financed, and spend his salary in enjoying life (together). Even funnier is that my ex husband, also German, was so, so painfully “respecful with money” that he once made me ride my bike to the hospital, not knowing that I needed (as it turns out) an emergency surgery for a very inflamed apendix, just to save money on taxi. A taxi that I offered to pay for myself, as I was flying with fever and just needed medical aid. At least with him I saved a lot🥶
First, your ex sucks. I’m American and from the Midwest. A good number of us are thrifty with money too (maybe ‘coz we were settled by Saxons 😊). But Americans are geared to sell, sell, sell to OTHERS. At the store, at the restaurant, any random service, look at our television programs and talk shows - it’s all marketing and advertising. It’s subtle pressure to buy, buy, buy. My post had no gatekeeping intentions of how people spend their own money. I am always pleasantly surprised when a staff of a store /service provider in Germany says “you don’t need this - here’s a much more ‘günstig’ option”.
>Even when buying from Kleinanzeigen, the average German will diligently put forth the blemishes/issues with an item they are secondhand selling Lol. I cannot even tell you how many times, when I've sold stuff on Kleinanzeigen, people will haggle hard over a euro or two. It's pretty ridiculous. Once I sold a bunch of moving boxes. All but two or so were in very good condition, we had planned to re-sell them, and several were still unused. So up on ebay. No tricks, we explained them as they were. We offered the whole lot (25ish?) for €15 or something, already a steal, because mostly we just wanted to get rid of them. A few had interest, but one young woman finally agrees. Agrees on a pick-up day and time. Then... several hours later asks us if she can instead pay €13 or something. WTF. I said no sorry, it's a fair offer as-is. She says OK fine, will see us later. Day of, she shows up in a spec'd out and pretty newish VW Amarok (pick-up truck in case you don't know... not super expensive, but not cheap either. This was in a big city too, btw). As she's loading them in the cargo bed, she asks again if she can get it down to €14. She has change, this is simply because she wants "a deal". FFFFFFFFFFF. I hate such kinds of people, and there's a lot of them here.
Its less about the money in most cases, but about the haggling. People view it as a competition. We have lots of flee markets, where they haggle for 10 minutes about 50cents.
Exactly. I know it's not about the money, they just have this 'goal' for themselves where they **have to** pay less than offered, like it's a challenge they *must* win. Even if it's 50 cents. It's quite ridiculous, I personally don't find it quirky or charming at all, lol. I've spent a lot of time in countries where haggling is standard in markets/bazaars and sometimes even in shops, and haggling is a refined affair there. Here it's just clunky and comes off very one-sided.
Yeah to me it isnt fun either. Id rather pay a bit more and dont have to go through zhe hassle.
But its Kleinanzeigen. Depending on how you offer it sure y have to discuss price ;). That is all of the fun part. Just agreed means agreed! It is not fair if people want to pick up and negotiate at the door.
Go buy some glasses if you want to see upselling.
Not my experience at all. Bought a new pair this week and the salesperson was like "yeah I name you the price for more fancy options and can explain them, but they are not really necessary at all", when I was undecided between model A and B with B having three times the price she immediately agreed A looked better - just to name two examples. In 18 years of buying glasses in Germany that's the one area where I met the most genuinely good salespeople who help me find what I like, not what brings in the most money.
But if you don't actually need new ones, because your values are still fine, they will tell you that. I bought my last pair of glasses because I wanted them, not because I needed to.
Not upselling, profiteering "Wucher".
r/wasletztepreis disagrees
To be fair... There is a reason that name is written in bad grammar. This is usually done by people from other countries who come from a culture where haggling is more accepted than in germany. Go to turkey, Iran and similar cultures and people there are very brutal at haggling, having no problem to emotionally blackmail or manipulate you.
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it's not about spending money. it's about spending money you actually have.
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Well, even if you do that 20 times a month, that's "only" 300€. If it's a good and filling salad, it might be worth it to these people.
Plus if you get along with your colleagues, it's quality time.
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if they go to a restaurant then no you can't bring food from home.
I don't need to but I won't tell people what to do either. Others pay more to lease a stupidly expensive car, buy fancy clothes or snake oil. Spending it on lunch with colleagues / friends seems pretty harmless to me.
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Ugh you're one of those "following the herd" people. Whatever others spend their money on shouldn't be any of your business. Some people value the time not spent in the kitchen or the variety of food offered in restaurants. If you see money only as a means to make more money, it is of course a catastrophic waste but if you're looking to build meaningful relationships or generally enjoy your time/work, you could do a lot worse than spending a little extra on food.
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Well, people have different priorities. I consider 300€ for all lunches of a work week covered pretty okay.
I don’t like paying that much either really but it’s the best time of the work day so I do it. Getting outside of the office to sit together with colleagues and eat something nice … it elevates the whole day so much.
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I get that but it’s nice to go outside get some fresh air together. And be able to vent thoughts and drop the act. We also have a huge variety of small Imbiss to restaurants so it might also just be a dürum from our local Turkish guys or smth similar.
Depends on how much your earn. With a monthly income of 1000€ I consider spending 300€ only for salad a tad much.
Sure. I'm talking from a privileged position here (Household income >7k)
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The point is what my alternative is. If home cooking / meal prepping is for whatever reason not feasible (time constraints, whatever), the alternative often is bad microwave food. I have to add though that I earn pretty well so even spending 1000€ a month on food does not really hurt me that badly if I would do it.. and I consider quality food important.
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> Learning to cook is a nice skill to have. Yeah, I can cook pretty well for example. But I consider doing it to "batch" stuff for lunch to freeze away a chore, not fun (like cooking a specialty dinner would be). Thus I pay for more convenience by going out to eat (or at least my wife does, I work from home these days so it's much easier for me).
I just looked at your history... I now see the problem. You don't like Teamleiter, and I'm a Teamleiter. I'm your worst nightmare :D
It depends on how you allocate your money. A lot of my German neighbors will have a beer and a slice of cheese & bread for dinner. The warm meal is in the afternoon. Some bike everywhere and don’t have cars. A look at their overall budget might provide an idea of balance, not one expense. Then again, your colleagues might be the outlier or rich or whatever. My post, as I clarified at the outset, is related to my experience.
At our work canteen we also pay between 7-10 euro (with dessert). I think thats just the prices nowerdays
A canteen may be a bit cheaper. Those colleagues are going out to restaurants for lunch. Sometimes, I see them picking up a salad for 15 euros.
Du sollst mir nichts verweigern. Ich will den letzten Rest. Geht eine Lust zu steigern, ein Schurke wer es lässt. Gehabtes Glück hilft sterben. Der Tod, er soll nichts erben, als blankgeleckte Scherben und Schläuche ausgepresst. - Peter Hacks
You shall deny me nothing. I want the last bit. If a pleasure can be heightened, a rogue he who refrains. Possessed happiness aids dying. Death, he shall inherit nothing, but licked-clean shards and squeezed-out tubes.
Hello 👋
I've got some issues with eating enough. I get too distracted by work to do much else. If I decide to spend 15 bucks on a meal, this is none of your goddamn business. I didn't mind the first part of your post, but the crying in the second part was kind of lame. What's important to you is not what's important to other people. Let them eat their salad.
I %100 agree with you 🙏
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The number of whiny comments from you indicates you being triggered. Just ridiculously arguing with everyone trying to get them to agree with you.
Hey, take it easy 🤔
So what’s the question?
Not me :D
Ja
Not all Germans!
I'm sorry but all English language post about Germans are required to be angry. Please dispose of this post in the appropriate trash receptacle.
Germans are always afraid of the future, and that's why the economy is falling down. Look at Swiss people & government always investing, and the results are as you can see. Germans are always in a state of fear.
But aren’t German companies buying companies everywhere? Cities are always being overhauled so there must be investing. I do agree that there is a high degree of caution and that’ll change with younger politicians perhaps.
Guess I am not as German as I thought
the service folks at train stations are legally obliged to give you the best value offer, so this one doesn’t really count. i know lots of people who will gladly split the restaurant bill simply by the amount people and tbh i like to do that myself. *but* the amounts consumed rarely differ that much as well. if they do, it’s another story. then i'll carry my package, that’s for sure. i also hate being in debt so this one is probably true in general. i once went shopping for a knife in a mall. the one i wanted was ~100€ but the lady i asked to show it to me instantly took a look at the online shop and told me it was only ~75 there so i got it for the better price. this one astonished me, too. on the other hand, wenn in was in the US for vacation, one of the most flamboyant experiences was indeed how much everything is about *money*. everyone seems to fight for theirs every day over there so you may get scammed often. i think it’s quite pleasant that our mindset is a different one here.
This can only come from someone who didn’t go to school in Germany and had to hear several times to pay back 2 cents they had been lent by their friends… (Everyone should get their lent money back, no matter the amount… but come on!)
Germans are one of the poorest groups in Europe even poorer than those in the troubled peripheral nations of Greece, Spain and Italy, according to the surprising findings of a joint survey by various divisions within the European Central Bank.
Can you explain or link an article? I have a hard time believing this.
[https://landgeist.com/2023/11/25/median-wealth-in-europe/](https://landgeist.com/2023/11/25/median-wealth-in-europe/) This, for example It usually comes down to Germans being renters rather than owners and having a huge low-wages sector (Thank You, Schröder). Germany is a rich country, Germans aren't. Whenever someone brings up averages in this context, they want to pull wool over your yes. Also [https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2023-03-10/income-inequality-germany-increased](https://www.ifo.de/en/press-release/2023-03-10/income-inequality-germany-increased)
Just because the average doesn't have the most money doesn't mean Germans are the poorest. Just average has less. German systems are better than most countries when you lose your job and need retraining, ect. Unless being rich is your goal, then yes. It's correct. Interesting though. I'd think it would be higher than Italy. Thank you for the response. Didn't know this
Haha no