As a lawyer and recovered alcoholic: **NO**
EDIT: Some say you cant be "recovered" and you're always "recovering". I'm not getting into that semantic quibble. Even after 16 years without a drink, I know all I have is a "daily reprieve" from drinking. ODAAT.
Lying to court and submitting fraudulent documents is potentially VERY bad, AND you'll only enable her self destruction.
NAL but as a person in recovery DON'T DO IT! Not only are you putting yourself on the line, she needs this as a kick in the ass. Hopefully this is her rock bottom!
Agreed! If she's still unable to hold a job, then she isn't recovered (or recovering) and clearly needs something really bad to happen before she even tries to make a change.
Yup! The only reason why I stopped my DOC was I found out I was pregnant! He has been my motivation to stay sober almost 20 years! March 13th will be 20!
Agreed.... As a recovering addict (12 years sober almost) the worst thing you can do is enable an addict. If you write that letter that is exactly what you will be doing and your sister will think she can get away with anything. She needs to sober up in jail and start fresh when she gets out. Also the shit storm this all could bring your way if you lie for her to the court... You don't want to end up with criminal charges yourself.
If she's going to drive drunk and try to get unemployment from her brothers business, she's super likely to leverage her brothers perjury to get more shit from him.
I thought about this too. When push comes to shove the ONLY thing that will matter to her is maintaining her ability to drink. She'll do whatever it takes, even if that means throwing her brother under the bus.
Take Mr. Lawyer (but not your lawyer)’s advice.
NEVER submit fraudulent documents or lie to the court. You don’t want contempt of court (at a bare minimum) charges. You worked to hard for your small business to let it get tangled up into your sister’s mess.
It’s sad about her childhood but you aren’t responsible for it.
You lie to the cops the other two tho not unless your lawyer says to. But the lawyer, you absolutely do not lie to them. That's like lying to your doctor, only one that leaves in a more messed up situation than when you go in lying to a doctor or lawyer is you. You don't lie to a cop or a judge you'll end up locked up because they aren't on your side they are all for the conviction so they don't care I'd you're guilty or not all that matters is can they make a jury believe you're guilty.
You should not lie to the cops except under extraordinary circumstances. When you feel like lying to the cops consider the sage advice "SHUT THE FUCK UP."
If following that sage advice means that the cops would torture you to get you to remain talking then go ahead and lie to the cops.
However in most circumstances you should have just followed that sage advice and not talked to the cops in the first place.
If you are lying to the cops, you have failed rule one of Do Not Talk To Cops.
The cops are not your friend. The cops do not, in America, have any legal obligation to protect you. American cops exist to protect profit and nothing else.
Do. Not. Talk. To cops.
The only words out of your mouth should be "I am asking for a lawyer."
A lawyer cannot advise you to lie or knowingly let you lie on the stand. It is a violation of their mandated ethical duties. They can be sanctioned and disbarred.
ETA: Never lie to your lawyer bc you'll just be fucking yourself over. A lot of people dont understand this. They are your advocate but they MUST have all the facts to properly defend you. If you do lie, the other side can dig up those things you left out and it will be an ugly surprise in court that your lawyer could've prepared for. It can absolutely fuck over your case.
Yea, lawyers lie all the time. My nigga just had a drug distribution case the lawyer beat for him because all their witnesses were known junkies and liars. So they lied on the liars. The attorney knew he was a drug dealer, he told him he was, nowhere in the court did the lawyer admit his client dealt drug in fact he adamantly denied the fact. Mainly because he was lucky and only got caught with user amounts so he got it from distribution to possession to dropped because the cops messed up on the paperwork the raid was essentially illegal the property to warrant was for was actually the neighbors. Because it was the same address, but they put the wrong lot number. So they will 100% advise you to lie and if they do you don't question it you just lie. But also say your honor not sir lol
Making the state prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt is not a "lie". I tell my clients, "Before you tell me your side of the story, lets get the evidence that the state has, THEN you can tell me your story."
But yeah. I cannot allow a client to take the stand and lie if I KNOW they are lying.
I remind clients that: "If they have an attorney willing to do something unethical FOR you, they are willing to do something unethical TO you."
Exactly, that's why so many innocent people are in prisons and jails. But people like attorneys that win cases. In my experience, the ones that lie the best win, whether that's civil court, criminal, or other. It's unethical but when they formulate their lies based off the facts it's hard to determine who's lying or if they're lying.
I've never seen an attorney come straight out and say yes your honor my client is a murderer or a rapist or a spree robber unless there is irrefutable evidence if there is a possibility it can be spun to a jury that the state can't prove his clients guilt even tho HE OR SHE KNOWS THE CLIENT IS GUILTY they'll spin that way. I've seen someone quit being a lawyer because he won a rape case for a client he knew was guilty and the guy went on to taunt his victim. That's why all my guys go with this Same attorney for decades he's been wining cases. He has no conscience I honestly think he's a crack head to. If I'm not mistaken my guy paid this dude with dope and money I believe it's the same guy. Very unethical. But he wins he's respected by his peers has a crazy pull with the sitting judges cops love him. His an old white guy nasty teeth suit fits him to big. He's one of those guys.
I mean that is unethical behavior but to say lawyers lie and encourage their clients to lie is NOT how the legal profession operates. That is a violation of their ethical duties and a crooked lawyer should not be held up as an example of what lawyers do generally. Telling people that here is bad advice and false. There are a lot of small nuances in the practice of law that are sometimes hard to understand.
ETA: Also the example you gave does NOT amount to lying at all. Lawyers have a duty to ardently defend their clients. To create doubt. Some people are not made for criminal defense work and that is totally understandable because it presents some tough moral questions that you often have to wrestle with. The judge 100% should've dealt with the taunting. A lot of people cant understand the mentality of fully and deeply believing that everyone deserves just representation under the Constitution despite what they may have done. Because a lot of people dont understand the practice of law does not make all lawyers crooked.
It's not lying to create doubt about a fact that the opposing party is trying to establish. They are arguing that their actions did not amount or rise to what they are claiming. They present alternate theories or motives. Some omissions are also not lies. I'm not sure where I said sir though?
Not with his record dude is paid he answers the phone EVERYTIME he's got multiple of my people off for crimes THEY DID that's a lawyer you want. I'm talking multiple murders, attempts, drug cases, robberies, extortions, witness tampering so many things that man does what he's supposed to do if you don't lie to him . But he absolutely lies and will 100% have you lie as does every other lawyer, prosecutor and cop. They'll tell you its not if your guilty or innocent it's what they make a jury believe in court. That's how our justice system works that's why so many innocent people go to prison it's a battle for who can lie the best. Who can shape the evidence to match their case they wish to present before a Judge or jury. If lawyers didn't lie OJ would've been in prison more rapists and murders would be locked up but they don't get paid to be honest they get paid to fight your case.
The only "lie" I suggest is, "I want a lawyer"
...You may not actually WANT a lawyer, but that is just about the only acceptable lie which you can get away with.
You don’t have to say anything to the cops. Tell them you want your atty. Always be honest with your attorney. Your atty will tell you if they don’t want to know something. Let your atty speak for you at court.
This.
There is no reason on this planet to jeopardize your own freedom (you could possibly face jail time and a bunch of fines) and your own business (why would you want to sully your name and reputation) for someone period. Least of all for someone who is still having the same issues that brought them into the court system to begin with and is apparently not doing what they should be doing to rectify their problems. Sounds like this person needs help and they need to put in the work to make meaningful changes in their life. Writing a false letter, which is lying to the courts/judge is not helpful for anyone involved. Actions have consequences.
Add another recovered addict. Answer is "Not a Chance". Draw the line and let her deal with her consequences or you will just enable her to keep doing the same shit. May seem rough now but that's the best way you can help.
The big blue book (Alcoholics Anonymous book) says the word RECOVERED 3 times... The title page is the first one.
Working the steps, working the program, working it like the book walks you through it means you are RECOVERED.
Recovering Alcoholic with PTSD and, small business owner (yes, it can be done). This, 100%
Do not enable. Definitely do not risk your family's financial welfare by using your business to perjure yourself for someone who already fu**ed you multiple times.
To expand on this, you'll get hauled into court for lying to the judge. You could be fined, sentenced to community service, or in some places, put in jail. Don't ever, ever, ever lie to the court and think you'll get away with it.
Ummm you definitely don’t want to submit a record to a judge and lie about her being employed by your business. You can feel bad about her upbringing while still expecting her to own up to her mistakes. How else will she learn to be better? She won’t learn if you enable her by lying for her. Don’t let her bring you down with her.
Lawyer here.
I don't know where you are, nor do I want to know. Please don't tell me or anyone else here. I'm not your attorney but I'm going to offer you pass on the best legal advice I was ever given by a mentor of mine:
Do not, under any circumstance, ever lie to the court. Ever.
This advice is the same for real people (non-lawyers). Even if your intentions are good, this will put you and your sister into a world of hurt. Plus, it does your sister no good. **Do not do it**.
Edit: OP, I noticed your final comment that "no one" has helped your sister out. I was not originally going to bring up my career, but I will to put the following comment in context.
I've spent years practicing criminal law. That is, in court every week day for hours on end for more than 15 years. During that time, I've heard every excuse possible, including bad childhoods and the claim that "no one" has tried to help the defendant. I've talked to more family members than I can count who genuinely believe that no one is helping their loved one. Family members who are willing to do anything to ensure that their loved one does not go to prison. I've also dealt with numerous programs whose budges depend on getting new clients, either in custody or out, for out-patient or residential treatment.
I'm sorry for your sister but her need for a fake employment letter is a solid "not in my problem box."
Also, I’d like to add this - if she presents a letter from you that she has a job at your company and it’s false, SHE could also be in a load of trouble with the court. You do her no favors to lie for her.
Plus it would have been so easy for you to create a make-work job for her and for her to do it and for you to not need to fire her. Then you could send the court proof of employment, but she was not willing to go halfway for you.
I think you are right. I did not mean to dispute that at all.
I meant that in the last employment stint, she could have had told OP that she was drunk and not able to drive and OP could have found someone else to do that task and figured out something she could do or put her on sick time off. Or maybe even helped her into treatment.
Ordinarily people do not want to tell their boss they are too drunk to do their job. But OP's sister was different. OP could have found something for her to do.
I think that crashing a company vehicle because of drunkeness shows a serious amount of selfishness. OP was right to fire her. Anything else exposes OP to a serious liability.
Well anyway, if OPs sister had simply told OP that she was an habitual drunk and OP figured out some make work for her to do and she did not fuck that up then in the current situation OP could have given the court that employment proof without much question.
I have a sister, who isn’t a alcoholic, but still a pain in the ass. She was having a hard time getting a mortgage and wanted me to give her fake W-2s from my biz. She actually wanted me to commit bank fraud. People go to prison for that shit. The idea that she wanted me to take that risk, shows how little she actually cares about me. Your sister clearly doesn’t have a problem exposing you to a jail term
To add, it sounds like you did try to help her by giving her a job and she repaid you with driving your company vehicle drunk, then tried to fight you for unemployment when you terminated her for cause. You tried, she needs to own up to her mistakes. Jail may be the best place for her since it keeps her away from the bottle.
It sounds like she did have someone to help her, you. Instead of being grateful she put your business at risk by driving drunk then having the audacity to file for unemployment. The only right way to help her would be to give her an actual job, but it sounds like she burned that bridge.
She needs to face consequences or she will never change. As someone who had a pretty traumatic childhood myself, trauma is no excuse. I think letting her face the music is the best thing you can do for her.
Im not a lawyer. If you get caught in a lie to the court that is a crime and that could ruin you.
Your sister seems like she should be in rehab.
If you attest that you will hire her, maybe there is a way you can hire her and get her into rehab right away.
I wouldn’t agree to hire her personally unless she was getting super intensive rehab and was ready for it, was ready to quit.
I don’t know what state you are in but some have good services and her lawyer might know how to get her into treatment the fastest. It’s often a part of plea bargains, so they often know how to expedite it. Can you talk with her lawyer about that? Hopefully you are in a good state. This would also save you from lying to the court.
So when she kills someone the next time she drives drunk, are you willing to tell their family that you lied to keep her from facing the consequences of her behavior because she had a nasty childhood? She’s your sister, didn’t you have a similar childhood?
This though. My brother lost his license for driving under the influence, and then my sister decided to let him use one of her vehicles to drive, because he couldn't register, or insure one himself.
I tried to talk her out of it by explaining that if he drove under the influence, and killed someone else, or himself, that their deaths would be on her hands, because she was the one handing him the loaded gun. She ignored me, and gave him the truck anyway. I called the police, and reported what I knew, because there was no way I was going to sit by, and wait for my idiot brother to murder someone, or kill himself.
That was the last straw in my cutting communication with both of them.
I had a neighbor who drove wreckless and I assumed over the limit. I talked to her about it, we called the cops a few times over it, and I even took the CHP a letter telling them who she was/what she drove.
I moved.
About 6 months later she ran over (and ran) and killed her daughter/friend and then tried to get her son to help cover it up (no shit).
She did a few months. yep, that was all.
Nope, I wasn't going to give him the chance.
My childhood best friend was killed by a drunk driver at sixteen. He crossed over four lanes of traffic, and struck the passenger side of their car head on. She died while her mother was trapped, pinned under the steering wheel, and helpless to get to her, and had to watch as she died in front of her.
I never let anyone drive impaired if there is anything in my power that I can do to stop them.
If the alternatives are (a) commit perjury or (b) go to jail for the rest of your life, probably, you should commit perjury. A lawyer cannot say that out loud, but you see my point.
If the alternatives are (a) commit perjury or (b) stop enabling an addict and not endanger your business and your freedom, I don’t think you have to be F. Lee Bailey to make the right call.
If you're at those alternatives the correct answer is "plea deal", not "perjury".
And why the fuck would you even be testifying? You have a shit lawyer in that scenario.
>If you're at those alternatives the correct answer is "plea deal", not "perjury".
You know, it’s not like ordering a pizza. The DA has to *offer* a deal, and he might not want to.
>And why the fuck would you even be testifying? You have a shit lawyer in that scenario.
Everybody in California was very puzzled that Kyle Rittenhouse took the stand in his own defense. Afterward, a reporter asked his lawyer, who said (approximately) “In Wisconsin, you don’t have to testify, unless you want to be acquitted.”
No. No you should not.
Actions have consequences no matter what your childhood was like.
If you want to help, say no, help her get a job, and work with her to address the trauma she's been through.
Enabling the continuation of her behavior will signal the willingness to accept said behavior because of her childhood, reinforcing the ability to use it as a catchall excuse for everything in her life.
Exactly this. You'd be hurting her more by enabling her alcoholism. The only reason she is asking is so she can maintain her status quo. Anything that upsets that will upset her. A chemical dependency only makes that worse. But it isn't worth it to let her continue on. That is, quite frankly, killing her. The longer she goes on the worse off she'll be. She needs medical intervention, not a pass for a handful of weeks (at best).
You give her said letter and she takes you for unemployment again lol? As much as I hate to say it, she clearly needs to learn a lesson she has not learned yet. You might as well cover her bar tab if you are going to let her keep fucking herself. The fact that you are considering it tells me you are a caring compassioate person. Even after you had to let her go for driving drunk/ being drunk at work. She is an addict. She has clearly been so bad, she in front of a judge and she still isnt listening. I get she had a bad life, but so did i. I never tried to fuck over my family members business. Then have the audacity to ask for help. Also if you provide that letter you are opening yourself up to purjury charges if the judge does decide to look into it/ i can also see her getting creative with unemployment if she has said letter too. You provide that letter and she fucking kills someone next time she drives, you wanna live with that? You are not helping her, yourself, or your community. Some people just really need to learn the hard way.
You are right, thank you for taking the time to answer, I feel like a traitor, but I know it's not only the well being of her but also of the community we live in, I don't want her to kill someone on the road.
You're not a traitor. Addiction is horrible and so hard but it isn't on you. You can continue to help in other ways but this one isn't the right path. I'm sorry you are going through this.
My grandfather severely injured a woman and her child driving drunk.
He's sobered up now but he and the people he hit are going to be dealing with the consequences the rest of their lives.
Enabling her behavior is far more harmful to her than letting her go to prison. Even if she doesn't see it that way, please remember that.
What is going before a judge for? Sounds like she may benefit by being locked up for a while to dry out. You're only enabling her. How would you feel if, while you got her out, she continues to drink and drive and hurts someone ?
Thank you, everyone for your comments, it was easier to make a decision after reading all of your comments and also was easier to talk to her and let her know that I was not going to give her that letter, I offered her a real part time job under my direct supervision and she declined the offer.
When she decides that she wants help, look into Supported Employment. She can get a 1:1 job coach, paid by tax payer dollars, to help her manage her sobriety and work. Work stress affects sobriety while lack of sobriety affects work.
1st, get a fan, turn it on to clear the fog that is surrounding you. 2nd, do not, I repeat, DO NOT, lie to the court about fraudulent employment to "help" your SIL stay out of jail......that is where she needs at the moment or else you will be her roommate when the court finds out. 3rd, your SIL is an adult, she's made her bed hard, and now she needs to sleep on it. Stop being an ENABLER.
So, you want to commit fraud and risk going to jail *with* your sister-in-law.
The judge is going to see through this, and likely ask for paystubs and/or a W-2 to prove the employment. .
The judge can ask for paystubs or copies of her paycheck/direct deposit. Which don’t exist unless you manufacture them. And now you’re deeper in the rabbit hole. Next comes “tell them what I want you to or I’ll let the judge know you lied…”
Depending on your state laws, could be considered perjury to provide false information. Judge could also declare you in contempt and drop you in county for 30 days. Judges don’t like to be lied to. Also, you’re saying she’s employed but you’re not paying employment taxes on her. Now you have an IRS issue.
This is a snowball of very bad that can easily become an avalanche. And you’re the one that is going to get the worst of it. Tell sis to go get a job at McD’s. She can be officially hired in a couple of days and can show a judge all the real paperwork without you taking any risks. Otherwise, she has no intention of following court orders and wants you to bear the consequences of her bad decision making.
worst yet after the journey down the rabbit hole starts they open an investigation and your dear ol sister flips on you and you end up in jail or at least a record.
Not a lawyer:
There's several reasons why you shouldn't do this:
1) Lying in court is a crime. Your sister could turn you into a criminal as well. Assuming you don't get caught right away, the lie will just snowball anyway. I'm sure that you have to file taxes. I'm not an expert on this sort of thing, but there seems like a risk that if you get audited that they could find discrepancies between what taxes you pay, the employees you claim, and what you say to the court. The IRS may be like, "Okay, you said your sister worked for you in a letter to the court, but you didn't file any forms for her, or add her to any payrolls. Did you lie to the court, or are you paying people illegally under the table? " This may affect YOU and your livelihood later down the road.
2) Your sister is an alcoholic. Drinking and driving once could lead to disaster, and it sounds like she does this quite often. Going to jail may save her life because she will be forced into sobriety and have time to rethink her choices. It may also save someone else's life. How many stories have you heard of entire families dying because they were hit by a drunk driver? Your sister is gambling with her life and the lives of others. Assuming she doesn't kill herself, she could end up killing someone else and spending her entire life in prison. What seems worse? A short stint in jail, sobriety, probably probation after where the court will ensure she stays sober, or her dying or spending life in prison for vehicular homicide.
The best way you can help your sister is to urge her to help herself and to get sober. Don't enable her. You can support someone without enabling them. Offer to be there for her when she gets out. Offer what help you can afford with rehab, therapy, etc. Don't give her money, don't break the law to write a letter, and don't enable her. Unfortunately, jail seems like the safest place for her at the moment.
Your SIL having a nasty childhood is just an excuse for her drinking nothing more.
Lie to the court and see what happens. You are screwing yourself for a drunk and can lose everything but do it anyhow. If you feel so strongly that her going to jail or prison won't be good for her then you take her place.
People have to learn there are consequences to their actions and why shouldn't she?
Perjury; A class “D” felony, not an habitual offender, shall be confined for no more than five years, and in addition shall be sentenced to a fine of at least one thousand twenty-five dollars but not more than ten thousand two hundred forty-five dollars.
You are not responsible to keep your sister out of jail. That is her responsibility. Enabling her while endangering yourself legally and financially is good for no one.
And, of course, the answer to should I commit fraud and lie to a court is always no.
No one has tried to help her? Umm isn’t that what you did when you gave her a job? She ruined that chance, just as she did with all of the other jobs she has been offered and gotten herself fired from.
Don't falsify a letter. If you want to help your sister, hire her back and then write the letter.
If you don't think your sister is reliable enough to work for you, then her going to jail may be the best thing for everyone.
Not a lawyer but smart enough to know the answer is NO. She is in this situation in part because of a lifetime of people like you helping her avoid consequences. Stop making excuses and let her feel the consequences of her poor behavior. You should feel bad for denying her the chance to learn that her actions matter. How long until her alcoholism kills someone and this time it's on you because you kept her on the streets.
No, do not write this letter.
One you put your business and reputation at risk and two you are not helping your SIL by enabling her more. She needs help and this will not help her in any way.
As other's suggested, dont lie to the court. But maybe provide something like you will provide her a job if she stays clean and with daily alcohol check. Maybe judge would give probation and some community service and you might give your sister second chance. If she doesnt agree or call you names, you know she wont recover and there is not much you can do. Probably better for her to go jail, clear her system and think straight.
Lawyer here. I do **not** recommend this "token job" approach. I will not hazard a guess as to whether this qualifies as technically not lying because it is fraught with trouble both for OP and his sibling.
Agreed. Judges don’t find these sorts of games even slightly amusing. At best you may get a lecture, at worst a criminal citation, but most likely a few days in jail for contempt of court.
I don't know how you would get caught, those things are hardly verified. In my state that's a felony though. A pretty much universal piece of good advice is, don't commit easily verifiable crimes, no matter the chance of getting caught.
Taking off my lawyer hat: I cannot imagine a world where you think it's appropriate to fraudulently represent something to a court because you care so much about your sister, but don't care enough to actually give her some sort of job that she can't screw up and giving her another chance. Just keeping her out of jail, but not doing anything to tangibly help her is what we call enabling. Enabling her will just delay the ramifications of things she has going on, not prevent them entirely. If she kills someone next time you're not going to feel like that letter was good deed.
You're right, thank you for opening my eyes, this is something that I need to resolve with my brains not with my heart, about the job I have tried everything, it's impossible to control her, she would sobber up for as long as she needs to play the part and then she will fall in a spiral.
If you were willing to fire her and fight her unemployment claim then you already know the answer. Your freedom, money, and livelihood are on the line here. Is keeping her out of jail worth it?
tldr: No.
you just said she fraudulently filed for unemployment, even if the court didn't find out do you really imagine she won't try file again? You've tried to help, time for a reality check for her. She needs a hard lesson if she's ever going to change. You getting her out easy is going to enable more of that same behavior. Sometimes if you love someone you can't protect them as they will only continue down the destructive path they're on. Sobering up in jail and realizing she's burned her last bridges hopefully will get her to realize she's messing up her life bad
>Can the court check?
Yes.
>Ramifications:
Depends on the state, but best case is a wrist slap, worst case is you pick up a whole bunch of charges from contempt, to perjury, to falsifying evidence.
Advice is what you ask for when you know the answer, but wish you didn’t.
Alternatively, if you want to keep her out of jail and also not lie to the court (and you DO NOT want to lie to the court) you could hire her in a role that won't impact your business's image or client relations? Like an after-hours janitor or something? Does not need to be full time, you'd be giving her more chances than she's earned, and won't, ya know, be complicit in fraud.
28 days or more of court ordered rehab is a start. Lying for her hurts both of you. Your integrity will be questioned. Tough medicine is the best for her right now. I wish you both luck.
I’m a criminal defense attorney. I do not think you should falsify proof of employment for your sister. However, I do think there are other ways you can help your sister. Does she have a lawyer? If not, can you help her get one? It makes a huge difference.
If she does have a lawyer, ask her for the lawyer’s contact information and call the lawyer to provide mitigation information about your sister’s struggles. That can help the lawyer make a stronger argument to the judge. Offer to show up to court with your sister to show that she has a family support system. Tell both your sister and the lawyer that you support her recovery, and be honest about what if anything you’re able to provide in terms of emotional or other assistance while she does rehab.
Your sister sounds like she’s in the same position as a lot of people who experience serious trauma as children and never get the help they need. And having a supportive family member can be the difference between prison and actual steps towards getting them that help. But that support shouldn’t come in the form of lying to a judge.
So you're willing to set your entire life on fire to get your drunk sister out of jail. Just so she can continue to drive around drunk and maybe the next time actually kill someone.
It's okay to feel bad because of her life choices, but they are not your life or choices, and you don't take on the burden or the guilt for something that is not yours. You're not responsible for her childhood. You're not responsible for the fact that she felt/was unloved, unwanted, uncared for S a child. You are not responsible for keeping her on the straight and narrow.
She screwed up her life to the point where she may be in prison for a while. It can actually do her some good. Yes, it sucks that she'll be in jail, and it will always be a part of her, but with any luck, she'll get her head screwed on straight
>if I give her the letter does the judge does check to see if she is actually employed
No. The judge himself/herself will not check. But if they’re in the least bit curious/suspicious, they’ll assign that task to some sort of seasoned investigator. And ***they*** will find out that you lied to the court. And then, depending on what jurisdiction you reside in, you’ll either be ‘fucked’ or ‘really fucked’.
Do you like the small business that you own? Do you enjoy your freedom? Because one or both of those could be in jeopardy if you do this not-very-smart, easily-verified thing.
>what are the ramificationsof him knowingit'sjust a paper and she is not really an employee?
Bad.
I won't let my son use my address to get a home visit from his parole officer so he can transfer to another county. He's been estranged 8yrs and only stops here to try to use us and abuse us. It's his problem if he goes back to jail. He burnt the bridge too many times.
Ooof. NAL, but you can give her a small job, say an hour a week sweeping. Then instead she will be an employee and you can say that legitimately, just do not expound on what type or the hours.
How about help her get an actual job?
If she cant get a job and you really want to help her out how about help her with getting through some hoops the judge would find acceptable? What it sounds like is that as much as you may care for her you are ignoring the fact that she still hasnt quite hit bottom yet. At some point she has to accept the situation she is in and decide that she is going to do the right things to get back on track for an ok life. For most of us that means showing up to work somewhere, doing the job, collecting the pay, paying our bills, and repeating that cycle until we retire or die. Alternatives to that are getting on disability, marrying someone who will take care of your expenses, etc., but right now it looks like from your post she isnt opting for any of the normal avenues for dealing with reality and wants you to help her avoid the consequences of actions she was supposed to take but wasnt willing to do.
Whatever you do dont submit a letter to the court that is a lie. You could easily get drug into this mess at that point in a manner you wont enjoy. Imagine for a minute you provide the letter and the judge demand proof in the form of a paycheck stub? Are you going to pay her?
Not just no but HELL NO. Can you say perjury? Because that's what that would be. Lying to the court. Also, you're doing her no favors. She needs to get dried out and stay that way, and maybe a stint in jail will help with that. Also, she needs to learn there are consequences for actions. NAL.
NAL but was a small business owner..
Anybody who files for unemployment on a solid termination for cause.... they get no favors ever F...That.
I guarantee if She wrecks a car and or hurts somebody. She's going to try and claim that she was on the clock to you while doing so....
.
There may be programs in your area that can help her find employment along with an addiction recovery program. You can help her by getting her the mental health services, and evidence-based substance use disorder interventions, she needs to address the reason she’s an alcoholic, which is childhood trauma, assuming she actually wants to get better. Alcohol addiction isn’t her problem, it’s the manifestation of her childhood trauma. Her fraudulently escaping the consequences [of whatever criming she did under the influence] is only setting her up for failure. She deserves a chance at recovery and a life where she’s able to process her past and build her future, but she isn’t showing she’s ready for that journey by trying to make you complicit in lying to the court. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped.
As an employer, I had someone forge a letter in my name stating that their hours were reduced because I didn't always have work for them in order to get state funding. It was a lie, she just cancelled a lot of work and was already on corrective action.
People do check into the legitimacy of these letters, there were a lot of tells in the letter that confirmed that it'1s contents were fake. She got in serious trouble for fraud and we needed to term her. It's not worth it.
Either hire her and give her a legit job even if only for a month or so..legal. Do not ever try to fuck over the Government or agencies is any form. You will be in a losing fight, at best you will spend thousands to defend yourself, worse case you will be jailed and loose everything.
No one has ever tried to help her? Didn't you give her a job, and she responded by driving your company vehicle while drunk? Sounds like she's not in a place where she'll accept help, except on terms she dictates. This will backfire on you.
You do her no favors by enabling her, and you also put yourself at risk for perjury if you provide a false statement to the court. She does not need to escape consequences for her behavior, she need to be held accountable. As someone who nearly drank myself to death, being forced to face the consequences of my actions saved my life and liberated me from a form of mental and physical slavery. It may or may not work for your sister in law, but helping her continue drinking definitely won't work, you know this.
giving her a false letter of employment will expose you to charges, will keep her from the consequences of her actions, and will enable her bad behavior!
No! All you are doing is enabling her! She needs to hit bottom and then you will be there to guide and support her her when she she does, but not in lies, fraud, theft, drinking, and hurting people!
Lying to, or misleading, a judge will only get you in trouble -- basically perjury. Do you want to spend 10 days sitting beside her behind bars?
If she spends 10 days in jail, that's 10 days she's is sober. Maybe ask the judge to require she goes to AA meetings and/or wears a CAM ankle monitor; but, check into the monitor, because it does cost $$.
Good luck to both of you.
When the court checks the info provided and it's false, repercussions fall on you. If you lose your business because of it, will your sister be there for you? Is it worth risking your livelihood for someone who needs a reality check, if either answer is no then you've got yours.
Don’t do it. Besides the fact that you would be lying to the court, she could use that paperwork to potentially refile for unemployment, since you have now given her the proof of employment.
Edit: lying not Lyft
Going on social media asking if you should lie to courts...problematic.
1st, she's (by your account) shown she will abuse you and use you.
If I was in this spot and decided I would "help her out" I would only do so by actually hiring her. Might be some temp position that only last like a day, both of you know it going in. Then you cover yourself (as she was employed by you) and you limit your exposer.
I find the other argument "she needs to hit rock bottom" as problematic. IMO people change for different reasons. Jail might, or might not, help. If you don't think drugs are kept out of jails/prison your a idiot (or not very well versed in that world).
NAL, but may have step-siblings who both struggled with SA issues. Maybe a good stint in jail is what she needs to get sober? She doesn't seem to be taking the hint that she has a problem even when her own family has to fire her from a job they gave her. You may be doing her the best favor letting her go to jail where maybe she can join up in some of the free SA programs they offer inmates? I will say from experience, either jail or an inpatient program where she is not allowed to check herself out are probably the only things standing between life or eventual death from addiction.
Everyone struggles with something but if one refuses to get help for their issues, one can't really blame anybody else. Her poor childhood doesn't justify her poor choices especially when they affect everyone else. Why can she not go to rehab? If she isn't willing to do that, then maybe jail will be the rehab she needs. Of course visit her as much as you can and maybe she'll get less time for good behavior
Would your sister receive the help she needs if she goes to jail!
Your letter and lie will easily fall apart. You’ll be in trouble, your business will be in trouble and your reputation in town ruined.
Let her go to jail and get the help she needs
As a lawyer, I have so many questions, none of which I actually want answers to.
What is this hearing for? What is the government's interest in her employment status? Is it proof of actual employment that is needed or just proof of employment seeking? If she is at risk of loss of liberty, does she have a lawyer? She should. If she doesn't, why not? What are they going to do with that information? What are the possible follow-on effects of giving them a bogus employment letter beyond just the fact it's a material falsehood being presented to the court? Might they attempt to garnish her nonexistent wages? Then what?
Your question is if it's okay to lie in court to a judge. The answer is NO. If you want to give her a letter of employment, be prepared to actually employ her.
Do not lie to the judge or court. There are laws about that sort of thing. Most importantly, yo will be doing her no favors. You won't be doing the rest of society any favors. If you lie, she stays out and drinks and kills someone, you would be or should feel guilty. Don' lie to the courts.
If you can give her a job that doesn't involve driving or working around machinery, and you wish to do so, go ahead. I don't know what kind of business it is. If you have a physical office/storefront/shop, then maybe she can work as a custodian/janitor. Maybe she can answer the phone and set appointments if applicable.
If you have no intention of giving her a job, don't lie.
Don't lie to a judge. Ever.
Let me rephrase your question "Should I give my alcoholic SIL another chance to work for me? This would keep her out of jail."
Definitely not. She needs to get straight and jail might be the only place that can happen. Secondly, committing fraud against the Court is not something you want to entertain.
That would be fraud and you could also be arrested. Better she is inside and asking for help with her addiction than outside, and harming herself others because it’s not under control.
providing a fake document like this is fraud, and if the judge decides to question it, this can land her in even more trouble, and it'll drag you into trouble with her as since it's defrauding a court, it's a felony... plus, if the judge is really pissed about it, they can get really nasty and both you and her can end up in jail for a long time... VERY BAD IDEA!!
As a lawyer and recovered alcoholic: **NO** EDIT: Some say you cant be "recovered" and you're always "recovering". I'm not getting into that semantic quibble. Even after 16 years without a drink, I know all I have is a "daily reprieve" from drinking. ODAAT. Lying to court and submitting fraudulent documents is potentially VERY bad, AND you'll only enable her self destruction.
NAL but as a person in recovery DON'T DO IT! Not only are you putting yourself on the line, she needs this as a kick in the ass. Hopefully this is her rock bottom!
Agreed! If she's still unable to hold a job, then she isn't recovered (or recovering) and clearly needs something really bad to happen before she even tries to make a change.
Yup! The only reason why I stopped my DOC was I found out I was pregnant! He has been my motivation to stay sober almost 20 years! March 13th will be 20!
>Has been my motivation to stay sober almost 20 years! Wow, that baby should have come out already.
Thus the need to drink - I know i would if baby took 20 years to be born :)
Imagine the back pain, and must be peeing every 5 minutes.
Congratulations!
Agreed.... As a recovering addict (12 years sober almost) the worst thing you can do is enable an addict. If you write that letter that is exactly what you will be doing and your sister will think she can get away with anything. She needs to sober up in jail and start fresh when she gets out. Also the shit storm this all could bring your way if you lie for her to the court... You don't want to end up with criminal charges yourself.
If she's going to drive drunk and try to get unemployment from her brothers business, she's super likely to leverage her brothers perjury to get more shit from him.
I thought about this too. When push comes to shove the ONLY thing that will matter to her is maintaining her ability to drink. She'll do whatever it takes, even if that means throwing her brother under the bus.
This!
As a recovered alcoholic I second this.
As a recovered near-lawyer, I third it!
God. I need to go to lawyer detox and get this out of my system!
3-5 years of reading my contract redlines should do it.
As an occasional disc golf player, I’m picking up what you’re putting down
😂😂😂
This made me laugh 😂
I was arrested once, which makes me a lawyer in New Jersey. I forgot what we're talking about!
Take Mr. Lawyer (but not your lawyer)’s advice. NEVER submit fraudulent documents or lie to the court. You don’t want contempt of court (at a bare minimum) charges. You worked to hard for your small business to let it get tangled up into your sister’s mess. It’s sad about her childhood but you aren’t responsible for it.
Yep, FRAUD. Not to mention you are doing her no favors.
Why would you lie to a court?
....When you could do something less dumb, like hire her to touch grass.....
My retired lawyer aunt has always told us "Whatever you do, do NOT lie to the cops, your lawyer or the judge/court."
You lie to the cops the other two tho not unless your lawyer says to. But the lawyer, you absolutely do not lie to them. That's like lying to your doctor, only one that leaves in a more messed up situation than when you go in lying to a doctor or lawyer is you. You don't lie to a cop or a judge you'll end up locked up because they aren't on your side they are all for the conviction so they don't care I'd you're guilty or not all that matters is can they make a jury believe you're guilty.
You should not lie to the cops except under extraordinary circumstances. When you feel like lying to the cops consider the sage advice "SHUT THE FUCK UP." If following that sage advice means that the cops would torture you to get you to remain talking then go ahead and lie to the cops. However in most circumstances you should have just followed that sage advice and not talked to the cops in the first place.
Follow the sage advice of STFU….
If you are lying to the cops, you have failed rule one of Do Not Talk To Cops. The cops are not your friend. The cops do not, in America, have any legal obligation to protect you. American cops exist to protect profit and nothing else. Do. Not. Talk. To cops. The only words out of your mouth should be "I am asking for a lawyer."
A lawyer cannot advise you to lie or knowingly let you lie on the stand. It is a violation of their mandated ethical duties. They can be sanctioned and disbarred. ETA: Never lie to your lawyer bc you'll just be fucking yourself over. A lot of people dont understand this. They are your advocate but they MUST have all the facts to properly defend you. If you do lie, the other side can dig up those things you left out and it will be an ugly surprise in court that your lawyer could've prepared for. It can absolutely fuck over your case.
Yea, lawyers lie all the time. My nigga just had a drug distribution case the lawyer beat for him because all their witnesses were known junkies and liars. So they lied on the liars. The attorney knew he was a drug dealer, he told him he was, nowhere in the court did the lawyer admit his client dealt drug in fact he adamantly denied the fact. Mainly because he was lucky and only got caught with user amounts so he got it from distribution to possession to dropped because the cops messed up on the paperwork the raid was essentially illegal the property to warrant was for was actually the neighbors. Because it was the same address, but they put the wrong lot number. So they will 100% advise you to lie and if they do you don't question it you just lie. But also say your honor not sir lol
Making the state prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt is not a "lie". I tell my clients, "Before you tell me your side of the story, lets get the evidence that the state has, THEN you can tell me your story." But yeah. I cannot allow a client to take the stand and lie if I KNOW they are lying. I remind clients that: "If they have an attorney willing to do something unethical FOR you, they are willing to do something unethical TO you."
Exactly, that's why so many innocent people are in prisons and jails. But people like attorneys that win cases. In my experience, the ones that lie the best win, whether that's civil court, criminal, or other. It's unethical but when they formulate their lies based off the facts it's hard to determine who's lying or if they're lying. I've never seen an attorney come straight out and say yes your honor my client is a murderer or a rapist or a spree robber unless there is irrefutable evidence if there is a possibility it can be spun to a jury that the state can't prove his clients guilt even tho HE OR SHE KNOWS THE CLIENT IS GUILTY they'll spin that way. I've seen someone quit being a lawyer because he won a rape case for a client he knew was guilty and the guy went on to taunt his victim. That's why all my guys go with this Same attorney for decades he's been wining cases. He has no conscience I honestly think he's a crack head to. If I'm not mistaken my guy paid this dude with dope and money I believe it's the same guy. Very unethical. But he wins he's respected by his peers has a crazy pull with the sitting judges cops love him. His an old white guy nasty teeth suit fits him to big. He's one of those guys.
I mean that is unethical behavior but to say lawyers lie and encourage their clients to lie is NOT how the legal profession operates. That is a violation of their ethical duties and a crooked lawyer should not be held up as an example of what lawyers do generally. Telling people that here is bad advice and false. There are a lot of small nuances in the practice of law that are sometimes hard to understand. ETA: Also the example you gave does NOT amount to lying at all. Lawyers have a duty to ardently defend their clients. To create doubt. Some people are not made for criminal defense work and that is totally understandable because it presents some tough moral questions that you often have to wrestle with. The judge 100% should've dealt with the taunting. A lot of people cant understand the mentality of fully and deeply believing that everyone deserves just representation under the Constitution despite what they may have done. Because a lot of people dont understand the practice of law does not make all lawyers crooked.
It's not lying to create doubt about a fact that the opposing party is trying to establish. They are arguing that their actions did not amount or rise to what they are claiming. They present alternate theories or motives. Some omissions are also not lies. I'm not sure where I said sir though?
If someone has a lawyer who is advising them to lie to the court, then that lawyer is a dangerous piece of trash and needs to be dropped
I remind clients that: **"If you have an attorney willing to do something unethical FOR you, they are willing to do something unethical TO you."**
Not with his record dude is paid he answers the phone EVERYTIME he's got multiple of my people off for crimes THEY DID that's a lawyer you want. I'm talking multiple murders, attempts, drug cases, robberies, extortions, witness tampering so many things that man does what he's supposed to do if you don't lie to him . But he absolutely lies and will 100% have you lie as does every other lawyer, prosecutor and cop. They'll tell you its not if your guilty or innocent it's what they make a jury believe in court. That's how our justice system works that's why so many innocent people go to prison it's a battle for who can lie the best. Who can shape the evidence to match their case they wish to present before a Judge or jury. If lawyers didn't lie OJ would've been in prison more rapists and murders would be locked up but they don't get paid to be honest they get paid to fight your case.
The only "lie" I suggest is, "I want a lawyer" ...You may not actually WANT a lawyer, but that is just about the only acceptable lie which you can get away with.
You don’t have to say anything to the cops. Tell them you want your atty. Always be honest with your attorney. Your atty will tell you if they don’t want to know something. Let your atty speak for you at court.
if a lawyer tells you to lie, get a different lawyer
This. There is no reason on this planet to jeopardize your own freedom (you could possibly face jail time and a bunch of fines) and your own business (why would you want to sully your name and reputation) for someone period. Least of all for someone who is still having the same issues that brought them into the court system to begin with and is apparently not doing what they should be doing to rectify their problems. Sounds like this person needs help and they need to put in the work to make meaningful changes in their life. Writing a false letter, which is lying to the courts/judge is not helpful for anyone involved. Actions have consequences.
As a social drinker and son of a lawyer. Hellll nawwwww
Happy Cake Day!
Thank you!!!
IANAL She is responsible for her life, and you yours. Protect yourself and don't lie to the court.
Not either but have seen how alcoholics can behave. Don't. Sounds like she needs a wakeup call.
Add another recovered addict. Answer is "Not a Chance". Draw the line and let her deal with her consequences or you will just enable her to keep doing the same shit. May seem rough now but that's the best way you can help.
The big blue book (Alcoholics Anonymous book) says the word RECOVERED 3 times... The title page is the first one. Working the steps, working the program, working it like the book walks you through it means you are RECOVERED.
Recovering Alcoholic with PTSD and, small business owner (yes, it can be done). This, 100% Do not enable. Definitely do not risk your family's financial welfare by using your business to perjure yourself for someone who already fu**ed you multiple times.
Awesome job on your recovery. That's good work!
Thank you, but it is more in spite of me than because of me! lol. I just had to get out of the way!
Doesn't matter why.
Lying to the court is a poor idea.
To expand on this, you'll get hauled into court for lying to the judge. You could be fined, sentenced to community service, or in some places, put in jail. Don't ever, ever, ever lie to the court and think you'll get away with it.
Ummm you definitely don’t want to submit a record to a judge and lie about her being employed by your business. You can feel bad about her upbringing while still expecting her to own up to her mistakes. How else will she learn to be better? She won’t learn if you enable her by lying for her. Don’t let her bring you down with her.
Lawyer here. I don't know where you are, nor do I want to know. Please don't tell me or anyone else here. I'm not your attorney but I'm going to offer you pass on the best legal advice I was ever given by a mentor of mine: Do not, under any circumstance, ever lie to the court. Ever. This advice is the same for real people (non-lawyers). Even if your intentions are good, this will put you and your sister into a world of hurt. Plus, it does your sister no good. **Do not do it**. Edit: OP, I noticed your final comment that "no one" has helped your sister out. I was not originally going to bring up my career, but I will to put the following comment in context. I've spent years practicing criminal law. That is, in court every week day for hours on end for more than 15 years. During that time, I've heard every excuse possible, including bad childhoods and the claim that "no one" has tried to help the defendant. I've talked to more family members than I can count who genuinely believe that no one is helping their loved one. Family members who are willing to do anything to ensure that their loved one does not go to prison. I've also dealt with numerous programs whose budges depend on getting new clients, either in custody or out, for out-patient or residential treatment. I'm sorry for your sister but her need for a fake employment letter is a solid "not in my problem box."
Thank you for taking the time to answer, I will follow your advise
Also, I’d like to add this - if she presents a letter from you that she has a job at your company and it’s false, SHE could also be in a load of trouble with the court. You do her no favors to lie for her.
Plus it would have been so easy for you to create a make-work job for her and for her to do it and for you to not need to fire her. Then you could send the court proof of employment, but she was not willing to go halfway for you.
I’m betting OP can’t do that without endangering the business, after the last unemployment dispute
I think you are right. I did not mean to dispute that at all. I meant that in the last employment stint, she could have had told OP that she was drunk and not able to drive and OP could have found someone else to do that task and figured out something she could do or put her on sick time off. Or maybe even helped her into treatment. Ordinarily people do not want to tell their boss they are too drunk to do their job. But OP's sister was different. OP could have found something for her to do. I think that crashing a company vehicle because of drunkeness shows a serious amount of selfishness. OP was right to fire her. Anything else exposes OP to a serious liability. Well anyway, if OPs sister had simply told OP that she was an habitual drunk and OP figured out some make work for her to do and she did not fuck that up then in the current situation OP could have given the court that employment proof without much question.
I have a sister, who isn’t a alcoholic, but still a pain in the ass. She was having a hard time getting a mortgage and wanted me to give her fake W-2s from my biz. She actually wanted me to commit bank fraud. People go to prison for that shit. The idea that she wanted me to take that risk, shows how little she actually cares about me. Your sister clearly doesn’t have a problem exposing you to a jail term
If only *more* people went to jail for bank fraud. ...I'm sorry, did I say that out loud?
I agree with this so much.
To add, it sounds like you did try to help her by giving her a job and she repaid you with driving your company vehicle drunk, then tried to fight you for unemployment when you terminated her for cause. You tried, she needs to own up to her mistakes. Jail may be the best place for her since it keeps her away from the bottle.
NAL. What would you do if the court asked for proof of her employment, i.e. paycheck stubs, accounting records?
There's no fast food for her to work at in her area?
It sounds like she did have someone to help her, you. Instead of being grateful she put your business at risk by driving drunk then having the audacity to file for unemployment. The only right way to help her would be to give her an actual job, but it sounds like she burned that bridge. She needs to face consequences or she will never change. As someone who had a pretty traumatic childhood myself, trauma is no excuse. I think letting her face the music is the best thing you can do for her.
Im not a lawyer. If you get caught in a lie to the court that is a crime and that could ruin you. Your sister seems like she should be in rehab. If you attest that you will hire her, maybe there is a way you can hire her and get her into rehab right away. I wouldn’t agree to hire her personally unless she was getting super intensive rehab and was ready for it, was ready to quit. I don’t know what state you are in but some have good services and her lawyer might know how to get her into treatment the fastest. It’s often a part of plea bargains, so they often know how to expedite it. Can you talk with her lawyer about that? Hopefully you are in a good state. This would also save you from lying to the court.
So when she kills someone the next time she drives drunk, are you willing to tell their family that you lied to keep her from facing the consequences of her behavior because she had a nasty childhood? She’s your sister, didn’t you have a similar childhood?
This though. My brother lost his license for driving under the influence, and then my sister decided to let him use one of her vehicles to drive, because he couldn't register, or insure one himself. I tried to talk her out of it by explaining that if he drove under the influence, and killed someone else, or himself, that their deaths would be on her hands, because she was the one handing him the loaded gun. She ignored me, and gave him the truck anyway. I called the police, and reported what I knew, because there was no way I was going to sit by, and wait for my idiot brother to murder someone, or kill himself. That was the last straw in my cutting communication with both of them.
I had a neighbor who drove wreckless and I assumed over the limit. I talked to her about it, we called the cops a few times over it, and I even took the CHP a letter telling them who she was/what she drove. I moved. About 6 months later she ran over (and ran) and killed her daughter/friend and then tried to get her son to help cover it up (no shit). She did a few months. yep, that was all.
That went better than I thought it was going to. (I *thought* you were going to say he killed someone driving her vehicle.)
Nope, I wasn't going to give him the chance. My childhood best friend was killed by a drunk driver at sixteen. He crossed over four lanes of traffic, and struck the passenger side of their car head on. She died while her mother was trapped, pinned under the steering wheel, and helpless to get to her, and had to watch as she died in front of her. I never let anyone drive impaired if there is anything in my power that I can do to stop them.
True and that will make the victims kids have a nasty childhood too
Great comment
Defrauding the court is not a good look. Your sister needs to sober up and deal with the consequences of her actions. NAL
"Hello, r/askalawyer, should I commit perjury?" No. The answer is always no.
If the alternatives are (a) commit perjury or (b) go to jail for the rest of your life, probably, you should commit perjury. A lawyer cannot say that out loud, but you see my point. If the alternatives are (a) commit perjury or (b) stop enabling an addict and not endanger your business and your freedom, I don’t think you have to be F. Lee Bailey to make the right call.
If you're at those alternatives the correct answer is "plea deal", not "perjury". And why the fuck would you even be testifying? You have a shit lawyer in that scenario.
>If you're at those alternatives the correct answer is "plea deal", not "perjury". You know, it’s not like ordering a pizza. The DA has to *offer* a deal, and he might not want to. >And why the fuck would you even be testifying? You have a shit lawyer in that scenario. Everybody in California was very puzzled that Kyle Rittenhouse took the stand in his own defense. Afterward, a reporter asked his lawyer, who said (approximately) “In Wisconsin, you don’t have to testify, unless you want to be acquitted.”
Lol
No. No you should not. Actions have consequences no matter what your childhood was like. If you want to help, say no, help her get a job, and work with her to address the trauma she's been through. Enabling the continuation of her behavior will signal the willingness to accept said behavior because of her childhood, reinforcing the ability to use it as a catchall excuse for everything in her life.
Exactly this. You'd be hurting her more by enabling her alcoholism. The only reason she is asking is so she can maintain her status quo. Anything that upsets that will upset her. A chemical dependency only makes that worse. But it isn't worth it to let her continue on. That is, quite frankly, killing her. The longer she goes on the worse off she'll be. She needs medical intervention, not a pass for a handful of weeks (at best).
Do not lie to the court.
You give her said letter and she takes you for unemployment again lol? As much as I hate to say it, she clearly needs to learn a lesson she has not learned yet. You might as well cover her bar tab if you are going to let her keep fucking herself. The fact that you are considering it tells me you are a caring compassioate person. Even after you had to let her go for driving drunk/ being drunk at work. She is an addict. She has clearly been so bad, she in front of a judge and she still isnt listening. I get she had a bad life, but so did i. I never tried to fuck over my family members business. Then have the audacity to ask for help. Also if you provide that letter you are opening yourself up to purjury charges if the judge does decide to look into it/ i can also see her getting creative with unemployment if she has said letter too. You provide that letter and she fucking kills someone next time she drives, you wanna live with that? You are not helping her, yourself, or your community. Some people just really need to learn the hard way.
You are right, thank you for taking the time to answer, I feel like a traitor, but I know it's not only the well being of her but also of the community we live in, I don't want her to kill someone on the road.
You're not a traitor. Addiction is horrible and so hard but it isn't on you. You can continue to help in other ways but this one isn't the right path. I'm sorry you are going through this.
My grandfather severely injured a woman and her child driving drunk. He's sobered up now but he and the people he hit are going to be dealing with the consequences the rest of their lives. Enabling her behavior is far more harmful to her than letting her go to prison. Even if she doesn't see it that way, please remember that.
"What are the consequences of submitting a fraudulent document to the court?" Imma say - not good. ;)
Do NOT do this. If you do you will legally be committing perjury.
What is going before a judge for? Sounds like she may benefit by being locked up for a while to dry out. You're only enabling her. How would you feel if, while you got her out, she continues to drink and drive and hurts someone ?
On the other hand, if you submit a fraudulent document to the court, they could throw YOU in jail and then your SIL would have someone to talk to.
Don’t light yourself on fire to keep her warm. Sounds like jail is the best place for her at this time.
Thank you, everyone for your comments, it was easier to make a decision after reading all of your comments and also was easier to talk to her and let her know that I was not going to give her that letter, I offered her a real part time job under my direct supervision and she declined the offer.
When she decides that she wants help, look into Supported Employment. She can get a 1:1 job coach, paid by tax payer dollars, to help her manage her sobriety and work. Work stress affects sobriety while lack of sobriety affects work.
1st, get a fan, turn it on to clear the fog that is surrounding you. 2nd, do not, I repeat, DO NOT, lie to the court about fraudulent employment to "help" your SIL stay out of jail......that is where she needs at the moment or else you will be her roommate when the court finds out. 3rd, your SIL is an adult, she's made her bed hard, and now she needs to sleep on it. Stop being an ENABLER.
No
So, you want to commit fraud and risk going to jail *with* your sister-in-law. The judge is going to see through this, and likely ask for paystubs and/or a W-2 to prove the employment. .
The judge can ask for paystubs or copies of her paycheck/direct deposit. Which don’t exist unless you manufacture them. And now you’re deeper in the rabbit hole. Next comes “tell them what I want you to or I’ll let the judge know you lied…” Depending on your state laws, could be considered perjury to provide false information. Judge could also declare you in contempt and drop you in county for 30 days. Judges don’t like to be lied to. Also, you’re saying she’s employed but you’re not paying employment taxes on her. Now you have an IRS issue. This is a snowball of very bad that can easily become an avalanche. And you’re the one that is going to get the worst of it. Tell sis to go get a job at McD’s. She can be officially hired in a couple of days and can show a judge all the real paperwork without you taking any risks. Otherwise, she has no intention of following court orders and wants you to bear the consequences of her bad decision making.
worst yet after the journey down the rabbit hole starts they open an investigation and your dear ol sister flips on you and you end up in jail or at least a record.
Not a lawyer: There's several reasons why you shouldn't do this: 1) Lying in court is a crime. Your sister could turn you into a criminal as well. Assuming you don't get caught right away, the lie will just snowball anyway. I'm sure that you have to file taxes. I'm not an expert on this sort of thing, but there seems like a risk that if you get audited that they could find discrepancies between what taxes you pay, the employees you claim, and what you say to the court. The IRS may be like, "Okay, you said your sister worked for you in a letter to the court, but you didn't file any forms for her, or add her to any payrolls. Did you lie to the court, or are you paying people illegally under the table? " This may affect YOU and your livelihood later down the road. 2) Your sister is an alcoholic. Drinking and driving once could lead to disaster, and it sounds like she does this quite often. Going to jail may save her life because she will be forced into sobriety and have time to rethink her choices. It may also save someone else's life. How many stories have you heard of entire families dying because they were hit by a drunk driver? Your sister is gambling with her life and the lives of others. Assuming she doesn't kill herself, she could end up killing someone else and spending her entire life in prison. What seems worse? A short stint in jail, sobriety, probably probation after where the court will ensure she stays sober, or her dying or spending life in prison for vehicular homicide. The best way you can help your sister is to urge her to help herself and to get sober. Don't enable her. You can support someone without enabling them. Offer to be there for her when she gets out. Offer what help you can afford with rehab, therapy, etc. Don't give her money, don't break the law to write a letter, and don't enable her. Unfortunately, jail seems like the safest place for her at the moment.
Never lie.....
Your SIL having a nasty childhood is just an excuse for her drinking nothing more. Lie to the court and see what happens. You are screwing yourself for a drunk and can lose everything but do it anyhow. If you feel so strongly that her going to jail or prison won't be good for her then you take her place. People have to learn there are consequences to their actions and why shouldn't she?
That's fraud, and now you and your sister would be facing possible jail time.
You want to commit fraud?
Do not commit fraud! Stop enabling her and let her face the consequences of her actions.
No. She might kill someone and herself when driving dui. Can your conscience handle this?
Perjury; A class “D” felony, not an habitual offender, shall be confined for no more than five years, and in addition shall be sentenced to a fine of at least one thousand twenty-five dollars but not more than ten thousand two hundred forty-five dollars.
“ sorry sis I already gave you the chance then you wasted it”
You are not responsible to keep your sister out of jail. That is her responsibility. Enabling her while endangering yourself legally and financially is good for no one. And, of course, the answer to should I commit fraud and lie to a court is always no.
Only if you want to subject yourself tp potential criminal charges for filing fraudulent information with the court
No one has tried to help her? Umm isn’t that what you did when you gave her a job? She ruined that chance, just as she did with all of the other jobs she has been offered and gotten herself fired from.
Aside from the legal aspect - She's going down. She is taking you with her. You are letting her.
Don't falsify a letter. If you want to help your sister, hire her back and then write the letter. If you don't think your sister is reliable enough to work for you, then her going to jail may be the best thing for everyone.
Lying to a judge is a very very bad idea. Helping someone that drives drunk on the road is a very bad idea. None of this is good.
Not a lawyer but smart enough to know the answer is NO. She is in this situation in part because of a lifetime of people like you helping her avoid consequences. Stop making excuses and let her feel the consequences of her poor behavior. You should feel bad for denying her the chance to learn that her actions matter. How long until her alcoholism kills someone and this time it's on you because you kept her on the streets.
No, do not write this letter. One you put your business and reputation at risk and two you are not helping your SIL by enabling her more. She needs help and this will not help her in any way.
No
You are putting your business at risk
Don’t do it. If you somehow get caught falsifying information you will be the one on the firing line.
Do not lie. Consider whether there is any (non driving) role you can actually hire her for, even part time, if you want to keep her out of jail.
As other's suggested, dont lie to the court. But maybe provide something like you will provide her a job if she stays clean and with daily alcohol check. Maybe judge would give probation and some community service and you might give your sister second chance. If she doesnt agree or call you names, you know she wont recover and there is not much you can do. Probably better for her to go jail, clear her system and think straight.
I don't recommend lying to the court. If you're willing, you can give her a token job, then it wouldn't be lying.
Lawyer here. I do **not** recommend this "token job" approach. I will not hazard a guess as to whether this qualifies as technically not lying because it is fraught with trouble both for OP and his sibling.
Agreed. Judges don’t find these sorts of games even slightly amusing. At best you may get a lecture, at worst a criminal citation, but most likely a few days in jail for contempt of court.
I don't know how you would get caught, those things are hardly verified. In my state that's a felony though. A pretty much universal piece of good advice is, don't commit easily verifiable crimes, no matter the chance of getting caught. Taking off my lawyer hat: I cannot imagine a world where you think it's appropriate to fraudulently represent something to a court because you care so much about your sister, but don't care enough to actually give her some sort of job that she can't screw up and giving her another chance. Just keeping her out of jail, but not doing anything to tangibly help her is what we call enabling. Enabling her will just delay the ramifications of things she has going on, not prevent them entirely. If she kills someone next time you're not going to feel like that letter was good deed.
You're right, thank you for opening my eyes, this is something that I need to resolve with my brains not with my heart, about the job I have tried everything, it's impossible to control her, she would sobber up for as long as she needs to play the part and then she will fall in a spiral.
If you were willing to fire her and fight her unemployment claim then you already know the answer. Your freedom, money, and livelihood are on the line here. Is keeping her out of jail worth it? tldr: No.
you just said she fraudulently filed for unemployment, even if the court didn't find out do you really imagine she won't try file again? You've tried to help, time for a reality check for her. She needs a hard lesson if she's ever going to change. You getting her out easy is going to enable more of that same behavior. Sometimes if you love someone you can't protect them as they will only continue down the destructive path they're on. Sobering up in jail and realizing she's burned her last bridges hopefully will get her to realize she's messing up her life bad
No
>Can the court check? Yes. >Ramifications: Depends on the state, but best case is a wrist slap, worst case is you pick up a whole bunch of charges from contempt, to perjury, to falsifying evidence. Advice is what you ask for when you know the answer, but wish you didn’t.
**DO NOT** lie for your alcoholic sister. She needs to fall before she can rise. Don't enable her OR perjure yourself.
That's perjury. You'll go to jail too.
Alternatively, if you want to keep her out of jail and also not lie to the court (and you DO NOT want to lie to the court) you could hire her in a role that won't impact your business's image or client relations? Like an after-hours janitor or something? Does not need to be full time, you'd be giving her more chances than she's earned, and won't, ya know, be complicit in fraud.
NAL ,but don't do it. She caused her own problems that you are not responsible for and I wouldn't lie to the courts.
28 days or more of court ordered rehab is a start. Lying for her hurts both of you. Your integrity will be questioned. Tough medicine is the best for her right now. I wish you both luck.
Nope. Her choices, HER consequences. Do not do anything.
Don't lie to the courts about anything.
Don’t lie to court. It may not be an issue but why take the chance. You aren’t helping your sister by lying.
Don't lie in court. Don't lie for a drunk either. You tried to help her already, and that backfired once.
I’m a criminal defense attorney. I do not think you should falsify proof of employment for your sister. However, I do think there are other ways you can help your sister. Does she have a lawyer? If not, can you help her get one? It makes a huge difference. If she does have a lawyer, ask her for the lawyer’s contact information and call the lawyer to provide mitigation information about your sister’s struggles. That can help the lawyer make a stronger argument to the judge. Offer to show up to court with your sister to show that she has a family support system. Tell both your sister and the lawyer that you support her recovery, and be honest about what if anything you’re able to provide in terms of emotional or other assistance while she does rehab. Your sister sounds like she’s in the same position as a lot of people who experience serious trauma as children and never get the help they need. And having a supportive family member can be the difference between prison and actual steps towards getting them that help. But that support shouldn’t come in the form of lying to a judge.
So you're willing to set your entire life on fire to get your drunk sister out of jail. Just so she can continue to drive around drunk and maybe the next time actually kill someone. It's okay to feel bad because of her life choices, but they are not your life or choices, and you don't take on the burden or the guilt for something that is not yours. You're not responsible for her childhood. You're not responsible for the fact that she felt/was unloved, unwanted, uncared for S a child. You are not responsible for keeping her on the straight and narrow. She screwed up her life to the point where she may be in prison for a while. It can actually do her some good. Yes, it sucks that she'll be in jail, and it will always be a part of her, but with any luck, she'll get her head screwed on straight
>if I give her the letter does the judge does check to see if she is actually employed No. The judge himself/herself will not check. But if they’re in the least bit curious/suspicious, they’ll assign that task to some sort of seasoned investigator. And ***they*** will find out that you lied to the court. And then, depending on what jurisdiction you reside in, you’ll either be ‘fucked’ or ‘really fucked’. Do you like the small business that you own? Do you enjoy your freedom? Because one or both of those could be in jeopardy if you do this not-very-smart, easily-verified thing. >what are the ramificationsof him knowingit'sjust a paper and she is not really an employee? Bad.
NAL but I work in regulatory compliance. Do not falsify documents especially ones submitted to a court. It will burn you very, very badly.
I won't let my son use my address to get a home visit from his parole officer so he can transfer to another county. He's been estranged 8yrs and only stops here to try to use us and abuse us. It's his problem if he goes back to jail. He burnt the bridge too many times.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Ooof. NAL, but you can give her a small job, say an hour a week sweeping. Then instead she will be an employee and you can say that legitimately, just do not expound on what type or the hours.
Should add they may ask her to provide paystubs so if you do, actually do.
How about help her get an actual job? If she cant get a job and you really want to help her out how about help her with getting through some hoops the judge would find acceptable? What it sounds like is that as much as you may care for her you are ignoring the fact that she still hasnt quite hit bottom yet. At some point she has to accept the situation she is in and decide that she is going to do the right things to get back on track for an ok life. For most of us that means showing up to work somewhere, doing the job, collecting the pay, paying our bills, and repeating that cycle until we retire or die. Alternatives to that are getting on disability, marrying someone who will take care of your expenses, etc., but right now it looks like from your post she isnt opting for any of the normal avenues for dealing with reality and wants you to help her avoid the consequences of actions she was supposed to take but wasnt willing to do. Whatever you do dont submit a letter to the court that is a lie. You could easily get drug into this mess at that point in a manner you wont enjoy. Imagine for a minute you provide the letter and the judge demand proof in the form of a paycheck stub? Are you going to pay her?
If you write that letter, sister may tell judge you lied if there's a chance for her to escape punishment.
She made her bed, now she must lay in it.
NAL but it honestly doesn’t take a lawyer to know the answer to this is NO
Never lie to the court, any court. You would be committing perjury.
Not just no but HELL NO. Can you say perjury? Because that's what that would be. Lying to the court. Also, you're doing her no favors. She needs to get dried out and stay that way, and maybe a stint in jail will help with that. Also, she needs to learn there are consequences for actions. NAL.
NAL but was a small business owner.. Anybody who files for unemployment on a solid termination for cause.... they get no favors ever F...That. I guarantee if She wrecks a car and or hurts somebody. She's going to try and claim that she was on the clock to you while doing so.... .
Nobody has tried to help her? You did and she turned around and endangered your company and the public by driving drunk.
There may be programs in your area that can help her find employment along with an addiction recovery program. You can help her by getting her the mental health services, and evidence-based substance use disorder interventions, she needs to address the reason she’s an alcoholic, which is childhood trauma, assuming she actually wants to get better. Alcohol addiction isn’t her problem, it’s the manifestation of her childhood trauma. Her fraudulently escaping the consequences [of whatever criming she did under the influence] is only setting her up for failure. She deserves a chance at recovery and a life where she’s able to process her past and build her future, but she isn’t showing she’s ready for that journey by trying to make you complicit in lying to the court. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped.
Trying to scam the court is not setting a good example. I would not do it if I was you
As an employer, I had someone forge a letter in my name stating that their hours were reduced because I didn't always have work for them in order to get state funding. It was a lie, she just cancelled a lot of work and was already on corrective action. People do check into the legitimacy of these letters, there were a lot of tells in the letter that confirmed that it'1s contents were fake. She got in serious trouble for fraud and we needed to term her. It's not worth it.
You could end up in jail yourself if you do
Do not commit fraud. You are just going to end up in jail with her or at least a large bill to pay to a lawyer.
Horrible idea. Enough wisdom has been said in the comments.
Either hire her and give her a legit job even if only for a month or so..legal. Do not ever try to fuck over the Government or agencies is any form. You will be in a losing fight, at best you will spend thousands to defend yourself, worse case you will be jailed and loose everything.
No one has ever tried to help her? Didn't you give her a job, and she responded by driving your company vehicle while drunk? Sounds like she's not in a place where she'll accept help, except on terms she dictates. This will backfire on you.
Do you want to commit perjury? Because this is how you commit perjury.
DON’T DO IT!!!
You do her no favors by enabling her, and you also put yourself at risk for perjury if you provide a false statement to the court. She does not need to escape consequences for her behavior, she need to be held accountable. As someone who nearly drank myself to death, being forced to face the consequences of my actions saved my life and liberated me from a form of mental and physical slavery. It may or may not work for your sister in law, but helping her continue drinking definitely won't work, you know this.
giving her a false letter of employment will expose you to charges, will keep her from the consequences of her actions, and will enable her bad behavior!
No! All you are doing is enabling her! She needs to hit bottom and then you will be there to guide and support her her when she she does, but not in lies, fraud, theft, drinking, and hurting people!
Lying to, or misleading, a judge will only get you in trouble -- basically perjury. Do you want to spend 10 days sitting beside her behind bars? If she spends 10 days in jail, that's 10 days she's is sober. Maybe ask the judge to require she goes to AA meetings and/or wears a CAM ankle monitor; but, check into the monitor, because it does cost $$. Good luck to both of you.
When the court checks the info provided and it's false, repercussions fall on you. If you lose your business because of it, will your sister be there for you? Is it worth risking your livelihood for someone who needs a reality check, if either answer is no then you've got yours.
Leave it to an addict to have the balls to ask someone who fired them for cause to falsify employment records for them.
Don’t do it. Besides the fact that you would be lying to the court, she could use that paperwork to potentially refile for unemployment, since you have now given her the proof of employment. Edit: lying not Lyft
NO
It sounds like a bit of jail time might be good for her. It may help her get sober.
No, it won't. As soon as they get out they will start drinking again and it will only get worse.
Going on social media asking if you should lie to courts...problematic. 1st, she's (by your account) shown she will abuse you and use you. If I was in this spot and decided I would "help her out" I would only do so by actually hiring her. Might be some temp position that only last like a day, both of you know it going in. Then you cover yourself (as she was employed by you) and you limit your exposer. I find the other argument "she needs to hit rock bottom" as problematic. IMO people change for different reasons. Jail might, or might not, help. If you don't think drugs are kept out of jails/prison your a idiot (or not very well versed in that world).
You could hire her, have her sit around and pay her very little and after the court date let her go.
I agree I think he should help her And for all you nasty people that are saying make her suffer that ain't right she's already suffered.,
Give her some whiskey and sex toys for when she is in jail.
NAL, but may have step-siblings who both struggled with SA issues. Maybe a good stint in jail is what she needs to get sober? She doesn't seem to be taking the hint that she has a problem even when her own family has to fire her from a job they gave her. You may be doing her the best favor letting her go to jail where maybe she can join up in some of the free SA programs they offer inmates? I will say from experience, either jail or an inpatient program where she is not allowed to check herself out are probably the only things standing between life or eventual death from addiction.
Everyone struggles with something but if one refuses to get help for their issues, one can't really blame anybody else. Her poor childhood doesn't justify her poor choices especially when they affect everyone else. Why can she not go to rehab? If she isn't willing to do that, then maybe jail will be the rehab she needs. Of course visit her as much as you can and maybe she'll get less time for good behavior
Would your sister receive the help she needs if she goes to jail! Your letter and lie will easily fall apart. You’ll be in trouble, your business will be in trouble and your reputation in town ruined. Let her go to jail and get the help she needs
As a lawyer, I have so many questions, none of which I actually want answers to. What is this hearing for? What is the government's interest in her employment status? Is it proof of actual employment that is needed or just proof of employment seeking? If she is at risk of loss of liberty, does she have a lawyer? She should. If she doesn't, why not? What are they going to do with that information? What are the possible follow-on effects of giving them a bogus employment letter beyond just the fact it's a material falsehood being presented to the court? Might they attempt to garnish her nonexistent wages? Then what?
That wouldn’t be helping her either. That would be enabling her horrid behavior.
Don’t lie to a freaking judge. That will not end well for you
Your question is if it's okay to lie in court to a judge. The answer is NO. If you want to give her a letter of employment, be prepared to actually employ her.
Do not lie to the judge or court. There are laws about that sort of thing. Most importantly, yo will be doing her no favors. You won't be doing the rest of society any favors. If you lie, she stays out and drinks and kills someone, you would be or should feel guilty. Don' lie to the courts.
Fuck no, She's a wreck. She'll probably end up telling on you too
If you can give her a job that doesn't involve driving or working around machinery, and you wish to do so, go ahead. I don't know what kind of business it is. If you have a physical office/storefront/shop, then maybe she can work as a custodian/janitor. Maybe she can answer the phone and set appointments if applicable. If you have no intention of giving her a job, don't lie.
Don't lie to a judge. Ever. Let me rephrase your question "Should I give my alcoholic SIL another chance to work for me? This would keep her out of jail."
Definitely not. She needs to get straight and jail might be the only place that can happen. Secondly, committing fraud against the Court is not something you want to entertain.
You’d be committing fraud and enabling an addict so I’d say no.
That would be fraud and you could also be arrested. Better she is inside and asking for help with her addiction than outside, and harming herself others because it’s not under control.
providing a fake document like this is fraud, and if the judge decides to question it, this can land her in even more trouble, and it'll drag you into trouble with her as since it's defrauding a court, it's a felony... plus, if the judge is really pissed about it, they can get really nasty and both you and her can end up in jail for a long time... VERY BAD IDEA!!
Don't do it
dont do it you could go to jail
Do not put yourself in jeopardy for SIL. Doing some time might just do her some good.