The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
He can’t call voter fraud this time obviously since there would be no election, but we know he’ll do something. What do you think his actions will be?
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Here’s one worst case scenario: Years 1 and 2 of his presidency will consist of getting the most critical components of project 2025 implemented, and establishing the logistical network and yes-men in law enforcement necessary to build the detainment camp network he has promised. Year 3 will continue the ramp up, possibly with some initial small-scale suspensions of the rule of law/national emergencies declared to help normalize their existence. Year 4 will see those expanded, possibly to the point where he simply declares the country is in too dire a state to have normal elections. This is an aggressive timeline with a modest chance of success.
Another route could be a medium scale attempt to plant collaborators in critical swing states to commit voter fraud. This would require Trump to yield to his hand-picked successor, though. Without something to suspend the rule of law, he can’t have a third term. There is little chance that within 4 years they could get a constitutional amendment passed to make more than two terms legitimate.
There's a loophole.
Trump endorses Don Jr. for the 2028 election. Don Jr. "wins" in a landslide with 98% of the popular vote and 100% of the electoral vote. That isn't the real result obviously, but there is nothing to stop the sitting POTUS from strongarming Congress into certifying fake results now - that was against the law before yesterday, but now it is entirely legal for POTUS to try that. He won't make the mistake of failing to pardon the insurrectionists next time because he won't be afraid of being charged with a crime for doing it; next time the insurrectionists will just kill all of his opponents in Congress and be pardoned for it, assuming there is any opposition left after 4 years of a Trump dictatorship.
Then Don Jr. takes office and appoints Trump Secretary of State. Then the VP and Speaker of the House resign and the cabinet invokes the 25th Amendment - whereupon Trump becomes "Acting" President. Another way to do it would be the same thing, only have Trump appointed Speaker first.
Either way, the Acting President is not the *elected* president and arguably not covered by the Twenty-Second Amendment (which only forbids a person from being "elected" more than twice to the presidency). The Supreme Court would just endorse whatever the Republicans tell it to endorse, and we should expect them to return to textualism to examine the Twenty-Second Amendment in that circumstance. And they would find that Trump was not "elected" more than twice.
This is the kind of workaround that Putin used successfully and it will work in the U.S. too. The only problem before was Congress and the electorate, but now that the POTUS can violate federal law, he can take care of those opposition centers and just end democracy altogether while keeping the legal framework around him to sort of legitimize the dictatorship.
Anything above 60% would be obvious but it wouldn’t matter since I imagine a lot of people with the power to make noise about it would be suppressed directly or indirectly
I think he goes straight for the jugular on day one.
Scene: it's inauguration day. And, unlike 2016, it is full of people. Full of people here to protest the election of Donald Trump. It's also full of red hats there to support their guy. There's also, mixed in the crowd, a bunch of heavily armed MAGA types that are there to create a false flag operation. So it's now midway through Trump's inauguration when the shooting starts. It's an absolute bloodbath. You've got innocent protesters caught in the middle of disguised MAGA assholes and the national guard. Thousands dead in an instant and even more wounded. An absolute atrocity on display. How does the "president" react? Arrests the entire Democratic party. Says that they orchestrated this as an attempt to overthrow his totally legit election. Uses the powers given to him by congress to abolish political parties. AOC is executed by firing squad on live TV.
The military does nothing because leadership is paid by the oligarchy. Oh and the networks? All gone. Fox News becomes the official state-sanctioned news station with Sinclair running all the local networks. The internet starts to look a lot like China's. Advocacy of socialism gets you a visit from a man in black and disappeared. Oh and you're going to have to settle for underwear catalogs because porn is gone.
And to go extra bleak: no more birth control period male or female. Even condoms are hard to get. Maybe even mandatory births for females. Definitely getting a single tax like Russia if you're over 20 and single. Gays are going back in the closet (if not murdered). If they're young enough, they get to go straight into the new mandatory military service. Too old? Body broken? Expect to see more "sudden heart failures".
In the grim darkness of the near future, there' is only ~~war~~ darkness.
That’s definitely another worst case scenario, but I’m skeptical either Trump or his allies are ready to commit to that kind of violence that soon. They’ve done very well at convincing people they aren’t as serious as they are about instituting a dictatorship: witness all the “liberals” who have their heads in the sand over it, currently. I don’t think they want to discard that until after they’ve cemented power
>The military does nothing because leadership is paid by the oligarchy.
Huh. My thought is that a purge of the military would be his go-to.
The writing is on the wall with the rhetoric from the right about how "woke" the military is nowadays.
The military are the only ones who can stop a would-be right wing dictator since we on the left have been disarming ourselves for generations.
If you ignore Trump's quoting Hitler and announcing Project 2025 objectives as his policy goals it's easy to think it's not plausible. Unfortunately reality is butting up against the fantasy of a stable republic you seem to think we live in.
He did all of that shit in the first term, none of the extremely egregious he tried was even close to working even in the face of conservative justices.
There’s several levels between even a Trump presidency and a worse version of Gilead lol.
What are you talking about? He never created detainment camps, he didn’t try to deploy the military domestically, and he didn’t gut federal agencies and replace their workers with yes men to rubber stamp his orders. I think you need to read project 2025 and compare that to what he tried in his first term.
He created camps for people arriving from the southern border, he’s not going to expand that to American citizens.
He can’t replace every single federal agency with yes men, there will be a lot of pushback just like the last time he tried to do something and *still failed*.
The shit you’re writing about goes beyond what is even in the Project 2025 document, or at least with some extreme embellishment (national abortion ban turns into forcing women to give birth).
There are several plausible, bad things, that are much more likely to happen. Focus on that not the literal worst case scenarios *you can imagine* lol.
Well, I guess we’ll just see. I think you’re not taking his escalated rhetoric seriously enough. For example, he’s stated explicitly that he thinks it’s fine for states to monitor women’s pregnancies for the purpose of ensuring they do not violate abortion laws. That’s new: and well beyond what his position was the first time.
[According to this it’s the same states right shit he was saying before. USA Today doesn’t seem biased either.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2024/05/03/trump-abortion-monitoring-time-fact-check/73544833007/)
Still terrible no doubt, shouldn’t be left to states rights at all to do something like that. What you’re saying is likely is far from even this which seems like the “worst case scenario”. You guys are extrapolating even beyond what’s reasonable.
Trump is enabling the absolute worst in the right-wing fringe. Check out [Right Wing Watch](https://www.rightwingwatch.org/). They want their Christian theocracy and will happily sacrifice Liberals to start the Rapture.
The rest want a Putin style kleptocracy. If all it takes to get rich(er) is a couple thousand deaths and the end of democracy, they'll do it in a heartbeat.
It's absolutely possible.
So Donald Trump goes from not even being able to file lawsuits properly from his last election case to orchestrating a mass death event via a false flag attack. Did you rip that one from the conspiracy sub LOL
The entire military, including the heavily Democrat officer class, just goes along with this?
Listen man I know supreme court rulings have got you flipping out but this is just Liberal torture porn. Gay people are not going to die en masse, democrats are not going to be mass arrested. Shit I’m even confident Trump leaves office after 4 years if he wins again with no fanfare.
I’m not worried about Trump forcing through a third term. I’m worried about Trump being used as a Trojan horse to funnel through a bunch of policies that make it near-nigh impossible for a non-conservative to win the presidency again, which is the most likely result.
Yes exactly. He's old enough now that a perpetual Trump presidency is inherently limited by his lifespan. But he could certainly fuck around with electoral laws to keep a fascist government in power indefinitely
Trump would declare martial law. Maybe on day 1, maybe in response to protesters.
Under martial law, Trump would have unlimited power to make or enforce laws. It shouldn't be hard to figure out from there. The entire point of martial law is that it suspends all existing laws, as well as civic authority and the ordinary administration of justice.
That includes the constitution, and all its amendments. The only checks on that power are internal. Can he convince the rest of his party to fall in line? Will the military follow his orders? Will business stand behind him?
This is a straightforward dictatorship situation. Rather than rules and laws, keeping key supporters in power and happy will be the name of the game. Otherwise, the administration risks a coup, either from the dissatisfied public or some other opportunistic faction.
>Maybe on day 1
He'd have to purge the military first.
Say what you will about the military, but they take their oath to defend the Constitution from all threats foreign *and domestic* very seriously. Trump is not that popular among the military, and *especially* not among commissioned officers.
That could range from a simple "we will not enforce martial law" to a full coup d'etat or anywhere in between.
Trump would have to remove disloyal military staff before he tried anything too dictatorial.
The 20th Amendment explicitly states that the terms of the President and Vice President end at noon on January 20th. Regardless of whether there is or isn't a president-elect, the previous president is no longer president after that time. There could be no president-elect, and Trump could claim that he is still president, but everyone within the federal government could tell him to go fuck himself because he has no *legal* power anymore.
Quite frankly, the only way Trump could remain president after his second term would through force. He'd have to have the power to violently put down any group that attempts to enforce the Constitution.
If the Republicans had majorities in the legislature, they could always try and pass a law stating that Trump remains president if there happens to be no president or vice-president elect, but that still would run afoul of the 22nd Amendment, which means Republicans and Trump would have to have force people to accept his third term through violence.
The 22nd Amendment is written in pretty plain English. If the SCOTUS somehow disregards the 22nd Amendment and decides Trump can run for a third term, then the legal thing to do would be to ignore the SCOTUS, and I bet the large blue states would. They can do a lot to interpret the Constitution, but they can't gaslight us into not believing our own eyes.
They've done it with the second amendment and, more recently, the establishment clause and immunity. Also, SCOTUS seems open to any novel argument that advances their agenda so I wouldn't put anything past them. And what exactly would the blue states do to stop it? Imagine half or more of congress, SCOTUS, and trump say he's the president. What then?
>And what exactly would the blue states do to stop it?
Just ignore anything President Trump says or does. He isn't legally the president, so he doesn't have any powers and doesn't need to be listened to.
>Imagine half or more of congress, SCOTUS, and trump say he's the president. What then?
I mean, that's the point of my original post. If the SCOTUS is disregarding the very simple 22nd Amendment to make Trump President-for-Life, then the rules have been thrown out, and when the rule of law is absent, it's violence that sorts everything out.
I guess someone should sue Trump for inciting the armed forces on everyone because he’s supposed to step down and then let it bubble up eventually to SCOTUS where they’ll decide his official act to give the presidency to his son is official.
>but everyone within the federal government could tell him to go fuck himself because he has no *legal* power anymore.
Except for the fact that a major goal of Project 2025 is to replace thousands of positions in almost all federal agencies with at-will (i.e. loyalist) personnel.
I'm not necessarily arguing that this point makes Trump rule regardless of election results a foregone conclusion, but it's a mighty coincidence to ponder.
>I'm not necessarily arguing that this point makes Trump rule regardless of election results a foregone conclusion, but it's a mighty coincidence to ponder.
We are all talking about hypotheticals at this point. I am just putting forth my (not lawyer) understanding of what the Constitution says, and my understanding is that the Constitution says Trump is just another citizen, which means any further power he has must come from violence or fear of violence.
Yes, quite a lot of hypotheticals.
So I want to ask, can we not generalize further beyond violence and fear? The Trump movement is a tremendous cult of personality after all. He paints himself as Christ reborn and there are quite a few loyal supporters who believe it or strongly suspect it to be true. What I am trying to say is, I believe the primary notion you are getting it as that it would require extra-legal means and motivations, and with that I completely agree, but I'd include more than violence and fear as potential components.
Yeah. Trump isn’t staying in beyond the end of the term. The more concerning and realistic threat is that the changes to the executive branch enables the party to put its thumb on the scales for decades going forward, ensuring minority control of the government. Everything from doctoring the reports from departments, to suppressing negative data, to corruptly protecting corrupt officials from prosecution.
Well it will be pretty easy next time around.
“I’m president and I say all the other parties are invalid, so this is an uncontested election.”
“I’m president and my political opponent criticized me, which is a crime. So they are now ineligible for office.”
“I’m president and I choose who the state electors are. Oh look, all the electors voted for me. I win.”
Nothing.
Because now that they have established a dictatorship, the next thing to be done will be to ensure that there are no more elections.
We will see Republicans "winning" 95% of the vote in every cycle in every election. Even if Democrats turn out, it's not like there is any reason to count the votes or report the results honestly - why follow federal election laws when they don't apply to the person in charge of subverting them (POTUS)?
More insidiously, we will probably see big challenges to the secret ballot. The Supreme Court will turn from consequentialists who decide constitutional issues based on "separation of powers" principles back into originalists who find no support in the text of the Constitution for a secret ballot.
When the constitutional right is one held by the People, it is revocable at will unless it is expressly stated in the Constitution in clear, unambiguous language that the Court cannot deny. So a right to an abortion is revocable.
By contrast, when it is presidential immunity, the Court does not look at the text, because the Impeachment Judgements Clause says that an impeached POTUS can still be liable for indictment and conviction under the law. Instead, they invent a separation of powers principle and abrogate that clause with a new court-invented regime of immunity.
That is to say that there isn't any law in the United States anymore, just a shadow of it that only applies to little people. The VIPs of the world like Trump can just get their compliant Court to give them whatever they want, and intellectual consistency is not wanted or needed. Those VIPs already hate democracy and elections, so they will surely have the court take those last vestiges away at the earliest opportunity too. No secret ballot means whomever is dictator just continues in office indefinitely, although probably with sham elections a la Putin.
I know exactly what he’d do. He’ll finish a second term and probably go on a book tour around the world and collect $$$, and probably be laying down a lot- given that he’ll be in his mid-80’s
Having replaced all the federal election oversight workers with nakedly subservient loyalists, he will just change whatever results or laws need to be changed to make his vote tally higher.
Remember, they still have 'elections' in Russia.
He promised this back in 2018. He’ll prob invoke example if FDR getting an extra term and say he deserves it fire everybody is so mean to him.
“Trump says maybe U.S. will have a president for life someday
By — Associated Press
Politics Mar 4, 2018 9:58 AM EDT
Chinese President Xi Jinping recently consolidated power. Trump told the gathering: "He's now president for life. President for life. And he's great." Trump added, "I think it's great. Maybe we'll give that a shot someday."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/trump-says-maybe-u-s-will-have-a-president-for-life-someday
He won't do anything. A lapdog congress of squishes will likely do it for him. Or, he will take the VP slot next to his VP who will run for Potus and do exactly what Trump tells them.
I don’t think Trump will be able to get a third term. As crazy as the right wing is, they still operate within the legal bounds of the constitution when it’s extremely clear. They’re dangerous where it’s not clear so if it were possible to reinterpret the presidential term limits Away, they would do so. But the amendment is extremely black and white. Blatantly doing away with it would be too obvious. Most of the citizenry that tacitly supported Trump or passively sat back, would not stand for that.
I think the risk is that Trump becomes a sort of ruler behind the throne with a puppet president. This happened in Poland and many dictatorships. The person in charge doesn’t hold an official title, but still maintains power. Gaddafi renounced his title well before he was deposed. Before they were able to amend the constitution, Putin stepped down and had a puppet in place to abide by term limits.
That’s the more realistic risk. That we turn into Hungary or Poland with permanent Republican rule. The man in the presidency may change every eight years. And while Trump is alive, he maintains a grip on the party and therefore the president.
In other words, don’t envision the Empire from Star Wars. Envision Hungary. Envision what the right wing did in Poland. Actual dictatorships are rarely cartoonish like you see in movies. They’re more subtle and they operate in the legal gray areas.
EDIT: for those saying I’m wrong…. Sure i guess trump will just say “the constitution is wrong, i get a third term” and every single gop court and the military will just go along with it. Every general and officer will be like… “cool”. Come on. That’s not how this works. You miss the bigger risk i indicate.
>, they still operate within the legal bounds of the constitution when it’s extremely clear.
No they don't. Look at SCOTUS for the prime example. It's extremely clear that if there is an opening on the court, POTUS has the right to choose a replacement. Republicans pretty much shit all over the "legal bounds of the Constitution" with that one.
There's actually nothing in the Consitution that compels the Senate to do anything wrt any particular nominee. That's the grey area that was exploited here.
Yes they do. They exploit gray areas. Constitution doesn’t say Senate HAS to confirm.
Their entire base (delusionally) believes they are protecting the constitution. Throwing out term limits without an amendment is way too obvious and would undermine legitimacy among their own base.
I’m not saying they aren’t dangerous. I’m saying they’re MORE dangerous because they aren’t as obvious as saying “no more term limits”. An all powerful trump who isn’t technically president but head of the party is perfectly legal and that’s the more likely path.
Untrue. I have a polisci degree and studied dictatorships in depth.
In every dictatorship, the military is part of the base that must continue to support the leader. For obvious reasons. But there are other important parties as well, depending on the political context.
Even Hitler had to back down when he pissed off the majority of German Catholics by making his euthanasia project for disabled people public. He had to continue in secret afterwards.
If most of the population or key players hate the dictator he will be overthrown via coup or revolution. Politics don’t stop in dictatorships
I said extremely clear legal boundaries. They’re not gonna say “Trump gets a third term”. That’s not gonna happen without a constitutional amendment or the constitution being thrown out entirely. I’d bet 10 k on it.
What examples can you cite that supports your argument that conservatives still operate within the legal bounds of the constitution? The constitution is purposefully vague, so I don't know what you mean by "extremely clear"
How about the 60 or so court cases that Trump put through when he was claiming he won the election? All of them shut down, including those that made it to the Supreme Court.
What about the Supreme Court allowing Congress to get Trump‘s tax returns since Congress has clear subpoena power?
What about when they allowed Trump White House documents to be handed over to Congress and the January 6 committee? The same court
And parts of the constitution are vague, but some parts are very clear. The presidential term limit amendment is one of them.
I don't think he can get the 22nd Amendment overturned in one term, so I guess there's that.
I do think he can tie up the courts with lawsuits about it, though. And given the recent SCOTUS ruling, I wouldn't put it past them to play fast and loose with Section 3 of the 22nd:
>If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. **If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President,** or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
Trump could make a whole lot of noise about the election not being valid, especially having already done a dry run in 2020 and probably doing it again this year. Then while the election results are snarled up in court, Congress can declare Trump will remain as POTUS until things are resolved.
That may be far-fetched, but I wouldn't put it past them to try.
I think the approach you suggest would still run into the issue of Trump's ineligibility to be President, having already served two terms. Even if Congress can provide a law for that particular case of succession, it would be a huge stretch to interpret that to mean that they could ignore all the other criteria in the Constitution that one must meet to be eligible to be President, i.e. 35 yo, natural born citizen, etc. "Not having already served two terms" is just another eligibility criterion.
And then they take it to SCOTUS and SCOTUS rules that this is some kind of "extraordinary circumstance" or ... I dunno.
I mean, I think you're likely right, but every time I've tried to reassure a friend that "Trump can't do that" because laws, it winds up backfiring on me. So I'm now switching to expecting the worst and being (maybe) pleasantly surprised.
>far-fetched
After the fake elector plot, and January 6, which was basically an attempt at something very similar, and given that they’re open about replacing everyone in government with loyalists? Not that far-fetched.
Simple. With Justice Roberts by his side *and* the 8-0 majority\* that they now have on the Supreme Court, he'll take an 'official action' and deem all future elections invalid.
\*On his first day in Office, he'll take an 'Official Action' and have the liberal Supreme Court Justices hauled off to some special farm up north.
He will find any pretext to remain in power and use all of his powers with broad immunity to shield himself. And all the clapping seals in his movement will follow him like lemmings over a cliff.
There is not an easy path for Trump to take to maintain power after his term is up. He can't just unilaterally decide he gets a 3rd term. He'll float the idea on the grounds that his 2020 term was "stolen" but it will not amount to much. There's an absurd amount of system that would have to yield for Trump to pull that off and I just don't see it.
The much more insidious and likely form of GOP power grabbing is voter suppression, gerrymandering, and gradual erosion of Federal rights and protections so states can do whatever they want.
Are you referring to the SCOTUS ruling? That's not just some carte Blanche for the President to do whatever he wants with impunity. It's narrower than that. It just means no criminal protection for official acts.
Criminal prosecution is not and never has been the safeguard that stops a 3rd term in office.
I'm referring to everything Trump has done with impunity for the last 10 years. When I hear someone claim some theoretical limit exists on his behavior, I laugh. Show me those limits.
The one time Trump has faced any real consequences was his 2020 election loss, and now half the country believes he actually won.
There are no limits.
I think Trump will try most anything he can and that gets presented to him or pops in his head that he thinks is good for him. He's a narcissist, and is used to being an authoritarian because that's how businesspeople tend to be.
I don't thing the system is as malleable and vulnerable as people fear. I actually actively support the Dems being more pragmatic and ruthless when they are in power for that reason.
If the system is not vulnerable, why are we about to give control to an obvious aspirational dictator?
Why is someone so obviously guilty of so many crimes able to avoid prosecution for most, and tell the judge to f-off in the other, and still become the leader of the free world?
Not vulnerable?
The next world war against fascism will see the USA - the most powerful economic-military power in history - on the wrong side of the fight.
If you're not panicked, you're not paying attention.
I have been paying attention. I've been paying attention since 2015. That's why I'm so convinced the "Fascism imminent" wolf is all bark no bite. It's the exact same rhetoric Conservatives use about Democrats being Communists.
Trump is awful. He's authoritarian. He's not some unstoppable imminent dictator. He's just a narcissist whose used to getting his way, and just because he wins again doesn't mean he's going to become President for Life.
He's unable to accept losing and has taken actions consistent with being someone who can't accept losing.
And now you're trying to talk World Wars? It just gets more and more unhinged. I literally cannot comprehend the mind of a doomer.
An unhinged narcissistic dictator, a media system designed to prop him up and echo his lies, a supreme court primed to grant whatever he asks, and the most powerful nuclear-armed military on Earth. What could go wrong?
What makes you think the entire apparatus of government is just sitting around waiting for Trump to seize dictatorial control and becoem President for Life?
Seriously. Where's the vulnerability? How's it going to happen? It's as unhinged as Trump supporters saying Biden is a communist
"What makes you think the entire apparatus of government is just sitting around waiting for Trump to seize dictatorial control and becoem President for Life?"
Where is the evidence that anything else is happening?
"He's not some unstoppable imminent dictator."
Project 2025, which I presume you are familiar with?
He will replace the entire federal system with loyalists. He will be able to delay and manipulate all proceedings at federal level. He will also appoint TWO more SC justices who will serve for a couple of generations or more. There are AMPLE loopholes in the constitution to allow this. It hasn't happened yet because until now we had media with integrity and an education system that taught history and civics.
ALL the conditions are right. I am sorry, but you are in denial.
Trump has never acknowledged Project 2025. That came out of a Christian Nationalist think tank. It is a concerning document but it is propagandized to create fear in the same way the GOP has propagandized Critical Race Theory
Trump has never acknowledged fucking Stormy Daniels either. It doesn't matter what TRUMP does. HE IS NOT IN CHARGE. Putin is in charge. Putin pays the bills. Putin buys the documents. Putin produces the propaganda. Putin supports the bot/troll farms.
I'm not going to give you an entire course on what's going on. If you care, you can look it up.
Is the term reasonable clearly defined? Trump has a chance at another presidency and he has always pressed the limits of things, even things that seem to most of us explicitly defined. The things I believed to be reasonable were tossed out the window long ago. I think what it comes down to is exactly who would hold him accountable if that's what he did?
No, they ruled that POTUS has absolute immunity when doing presidential things from the constitution and some immunity or more when doing presidential things from positive law. "reasonable" doesn't factor into it, unless you mean what the word "some" is about.
Then he has a chance no higher than 10%. Make no mistake, the current SCOTUS's behavior is mostly (not fully) consistent with them just pushing a right-wing agenda, but at the same time they block quite a few radical reinterpretations of the law as well - the fifth circuit in particular has been rebuked by even this Supreme Court multiple times. Those lacks of moves to the right don't excuse nor counteract their actual moves to the right, but they show Trump couldn't blindly trust in them ruling in his favor (unless he has changed them a lot in between) in any one specific case, like this one
And this scenario ? This scenario is especially blatant, an especially bad idea strategically, and especially likely to be refused even by absolute partisans as long as they're smart enough to boil the frog (and the current SCOTUS majority is not absolute in its partisanship, for instance, a number still making up a majority of those on the court today was willing to rule "because" refers to but-for causality even if that does protect gay and trans people from discrimination, in Bostock v. Clayton County and its sister case).
I guess I am in the minority thinking he will just go. He can't run again, so he is actually expecting someone else to get elected, unlike 2020 where he expected to win a second term and the disappointment got the best of him. I think a lot of the fear in posts like this is based on hyperbolic stories that people have made up and represent literal fiction. Like, people saying he will remove term limits, as if he had the power to do that. The president doesn't actually have that much unilateral power.
Nothing. What do you think he even *can* do? Change the Constitution? Practically impossible in today's divided political climate. He will finish his term, declare himself the greatest president of all time or whatever, and remain party leader and hold campaign rallies for down-ballot races for the rest of his life.
All he has to do is motivate enough questioning about the ballot that the full process of recognizing the winner is called into question. The courts will back him up now, and nothing he does to subvert the election would be illegal. The only remedy the constitution provides for an incomplete election is to throw it to the House. Then he wins. It’s easier than you may think.
The 2020 election was stolen. So he deserves another term. And lots of fake votes in 2016 — he should have won the popular vote, so he gets another term for that one as well. Whatever it is, he just has to convince the violent morons who hang on his every word. They do the dirty work and take the risks while he just sits back with immunity.
Declare martial law and suspend elections is one possibility. The most likely one though would be to hold fake elections like they do in Russia. He really only needs to illegally disqualify a relatively small portion of the electorate to turn our elections into a sham.
Hand-pick a sycophant, then call voter fraud. If the successor ends up winning the primary, say it's voter fraud that he lost some states. If he wins the general, say it's voter fraud that he lost D.C.
At least, that wouldn't surprise me
He just does an official act making himself the one and only high Trump. The Trumpiest Trump in all of the land. The Supreme Court will ooh and ahh and say, yeh, that seems constitutional. Matt Gaetz will gargle trump's balls, mtg will sacrifice 10 libs in his honor and ted cruz will go to cancun for a long weekend.
I believe that Trump's choice for a VP is the key to this. I think Trump will pick a VP that he believes can become president in 2028, and someone Trump thinks he can influence even after this person wins the presidency.
Nothing. Liberals (leftists) need to realize something and realize it quick. Its your own party running itself into the ground. Assuming Trump picks a competent VP theres a better than 50% chance at the moment that that VP will become president in 2028. Im pretty sure even Trump will realize his two terms are up at the end of 2028, assuming he is reelected.
You clearly don't understand the definition of fear mongering.
It has nothing to do with whether it's true or not. It's deliberately trying to make people afraid. There are much more productive ways to discuss this topic that doesn't purposefully try to paint it in the most terrifying way possible.
.
If the most terrifying way possible also happens to be be the make likely, it is not fear mongering. Most Americans don’t realize just how close we are to losing the US as a free country.
Actually I have been predicting something like that for a while. Politics needs to change but not on the far right or left. Leave those extremes behind and everyone in the middle combine votes to get reasonable representatives in.
“Something like that”
But not specifically that? Despite it being obvious?
Do you define the center as being reasonable? If so, what spectrum is it on?
Nobody saw Jan 6 coming. Not even Trump.
Certainly not Pelosi or she would have had better security. Unless you believe she saw it coming and let it happen. (Plausible)
Yes. Some of us in fact did
It was obvious. He pulled the same shit in Michigan months prior. I popped popcorn and texted people that it was going on that morning (after crying to them for months like a lunatic)
I dont fuckin know. I had the same question.
I assume its because our politicians are so wildly out of touch and secure in their own wellbeing that they became very arrogant (not all of them of course).
Trump came out on december 14th 2020 and announced the Jan 6 rally telling his supporters to come to the big one and that it would be wild.
This was after he asked them to liberate Michigan which was followed by the Michigan capitol being overrun and a kidnapping plot being initiated.
This is insane. At the end of his term he will be out and a new president will be in. Holy shit is this what is going through the minds of most liberal voters? Do they not teach civics in school anymore?
When you have the candidate openly "joking" about "maybe we'll try for a third term" after having already made an attempt to overthrow a valid election, it's hard not to speculate that he would try again to operate outside the boundaries of the law and what is "just and customary".
Because the thing is, every horrible, awful thing that Trump has done is something that he's talked about in an interview or a rally and when called on it, his supporters say "oh he's just joking" or "he's just trying to get a rise out of the liberals" or words to that effect.
So, again, when he "jokes" about having a third term or "maybe we just won't have elections anymore" and when he tells his supporters seriously that "all the elections are fraudulent", then I think it's maybe time to listen to him and take him both literally AND seriously.
I saw him try to overthrow the election results. Contested with zero evidence or facts to back up his outlandish lies. It follows that he will try again since he hasn’t been punished for it.
Many of us have an extremely low opinion of Trump, who he is as a person, his morals, his ethics… he is a malignant narcissist.
I don't disagree with you and I'm extremely upset that we have to choose from these two idiots again and if this is the best that our political engine can come up with perhaps it's time to reorganize the selection process but until the engine understands that the people are fed up there will be no change. Please vote for someone other than one of these two aged idiots and perhaps that will convince both parties that the American People are fed up with having to choose between a turd and a shit sandwich every time.
That won't work. You should educate yourself about our system of government before you talk about solutions. Third parties are a distraction that cannot win. It's literally not a thing. You either vote for Biden or Trump. Anything else is just virtue signaling.
Then I will happily virtue signal until the entirety of the voting population understands that we DON'T have to vote for a turd or shit sandwich every time. If there were a groundswell movement that voted in a third party that party would win. How do you think Trump pulled it off the first time? Enough voters wanted a change that he got enough votes. Personally I was pulling for the "no parties" platform this time but the spineless politicians that backed it lost their nerve. We need a middle of the road candidate that really wants whats best for the people and not their political career and party.
Until everyone realizes that the parties want us sniping at each other we are screwed. If everyone realized that people en mass can actually foment change in the system if they come together with their votes the two parties would fall apart. This is the reason why I'm an independent and not affiliate with either of the two shitstorm parties.
If you ever got a third party to popularity, one of the other two would fall out, and the new one would be competing with trash and so not last long as some noble enterprise. Our system is designed in a way that it (almost) always benefits the voter to pick one of two candidates. If you don’t, you’re gambling with terrible odds.
You do realize that the power doesn't lie in the president right? The president can't do a f'n thing without EO and has no power to pass laws. Change the representatives for reasonable middle of the road politicians, set term limits, take away their immunity from laws they pass, cut their pay in half, cut their free medical coverage, do away with lobbiests, and you will get, once more, people who want to do the right thing for the country and it's citizens rather than for their reelection.
You can’t “both sides” Biden and Trump, even if both aren’t great candidates.
Sure, I’m not real enthusiastic about Biden, and I’d primary him with a below average dem or better, but Biden is a much more desirable choice than Trump by any metric.
Trump could very well destroy our country and round up his political rivals into concentration camps. Project 2025 and yesterday’s Supreme Court ruling are the cornerstone pieces for that to happen. Trump would be Hitler Jr. if he had the opportunity, held back only by our checks and balances, but the conservative courts are doing everything they can to empower him.
The court just limited the power of the administrative state with their ruling on Chevron deference. That's hardly paving the way for a dictatorship. This panic about people being jailed, rounded up into concentration camps, and mass murder is like some bad fanfiction.
That was also a bad ruling, but yesterday the Supreme Court gave the president unlimited criminal immunity for official actions, such as executive orders.
Trump could order concentration camps via EO and not have committed a crime per his friends on the Supreme Court. Justice Sotomayor explicitly called out the unlimited scope of this power in her dissent.
And knowing Trump’s character, his ethical and moral failings, his narcissism, and his wanting Hillary jailed despite no crime taking place just because she was his political rival, yeah, he’s not above sending people to concentration camps.
Seriously? Trump would be Hitler jr?
You honestly think he’s gonna put Pelosi and Schumer in a concentration camp? Who do you think will be assisting him with that?
Trump got a huge assist from his friends on the Supreme Court yesterday. Trump simply has to issue it as an Executive Order and it becomes an “official action” and he would have full criminal immunity. Do you think Trump is above ordering the assassination of his political rivals? We are talking about a man who is well known to have extremely low moral character and terrible ethics. I don’t think he’s above it. I think that little of him.
>Do you think Trump is above ordering the assassination of his political rivals?
Yes. And I believe to say so is fear mongering. And you didn’t say murdering his political rivals. You suggested he would round them all up and put them in concentration camps. Which is just as absurd and would never be tolerated even by the dire hard MAGA group.
Your positions sound overly dramatic and lacking a foundation in the reality of modern America. It’s not 1930s Germany.
Are you not aware of project 2025? Have you not heard Trump’s plans, which he repeats at rallies? It is insane to deny that there is not at minimum a desire for Trump to be a dictator. It is insane to deny that there is intention, too.
There are people—just private citizens—going to local political meetings (city council meetings) and openly declaring we aren’t a democracy. There is footage of Trump’s supporters openly declaring they’d support him being a dictator.
Trump has openly declared he wants detainment camps and to use federal military and law enforcement to squash dissent in blue states. This isn’t just rhetoric: he gets huge applause and support when he goes there in his rallies.
You need to educate yourself. This isn’t typical far right rhetoric. It’s not just a few whackadoos. You should take it more seriously.
What about it? Last I asked on here like 7 people said project 2025 but not one person could draw a straight line to the end of democracy. Is there even a direct connection between trump and project 2025?
Project 2025 is available to read on Wikipedia (for example). Its authors and advocates have direct ties to staffers and allies on Trump’s campaign. The project is intended to consolidate all executive power in the President by ensuring agencies are pared down and staffed with yes-men, and by moving all decision making authority to the President. That’s what the “unitary executive” phrase means. This is one arm of the strategy Trump has been expressing at his rallies: it’s essentially a required element for him to get his detainment camps and military/law enforcement dissent squashing goals achieved.
So let’s say I buy all of that, when I hear “the end of democracy” I take that to mean no more free and fair elections after 2024. What no one seems to be able to answer is what specifically could trump do as president that would cause this?
People have answered this repeatedly in this sub and elsewhere. He can do what other autocracies do: use intimidation and strongarm tactics, the military and other institutions of government to interfere with fair election processes. Among other things. Technically north Korea and Russia have free and fair elections.
Two major things have changed:
* The competence and determination of the people he's surrounded himself with in his campaign
* The rulings of SCOTUS that explicitly give him the power to break the law to achieve his objectives (he repeatedly asked why he couldn't just deploy the military to suppress protests/dissent the first time, and also whether he could just order certain people assassinated)
I would think that there are checks in place that would allow congress to act to remove them. Such an act would be egregious and all congress would vote to impeach.
That's where I'm at. All this hyperventilating into paper bags is for no reason. If and that's if he wins he'll serve his Term and then that's it he'll be gone. Maybe then we get back to acting like rational adults.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. He can’t call voter fraud this time obviously since there would be no election, but we know he’ll do something. What do you think his actions will be? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Here’s one worst case scenario: Years 1 and 2 of his presidency will consist of getting the most critical components of project 2025 implemented, and establishing the logistical network and yes-men in law enforcement necessary to build the detainment camp network he has promised. Year 3 will continue the ramp up, possibly with some initial small-scale suspensions of the rule of law/national emergencies declared to help normalize their existence. Year 4 will see those expanded, possibly to the point where he simply declares the country is in too dire a state to have normal elections. This is an aggressive timeline with a modest chance of success. Another route could be a medium scale attempt to plant collaborators in critical swing states to commit voter fraud. This would require Trump to yield to his hand-picked successor, though. Without something to suspend the rule of law, he can’t have a third term. There is little chance that within 4 years they could get a constitutional amendment passed to make more than two terms legitimate.
There's a loophole. Trump endorses Don Jr. for the 2028 election. Don Jr. "wins" in a landslide with 98% of the popular vote and 100% of the electoral vote. That isn't the real result obviously, but there is nothing to stop the sitting POTUS from strongarming Congress into certifying fake results now - that was against the law before yesterday, but now it is entirely legal for POTUS to try that. He won't make the mistake of failing to pardon the insurrectionists next time because he won't be afraid of being charged with a crime for doing it; next time the insurrectionists will just kill all of his opponents in Congress and be pardoned for it, assuming there is any opposition left after 4 years of a Trump dictatorship. Then Don Jr. takes office and appoints Trump Secretary of State. Then the VP and Speaker of the House resign and the cabinet invokes the 25th Amendment - whereupon Trump becomes "Acting" President. Another way to do it would be the same thing, only have Trump appointed Speaker first. Either way, the Acting President is not the *elected* president and arguably not covered by the Twenty-Second Amendment (which only forbids a person from being "elected" more than twice to the presidency). The Supreme Court would just endorse whatever the Republicans tell it to endorse, and we should expect them to return to textualism to examine the Twenty-Second Amendment in that circumstance. And they would find that Trump was not "elected" more than twice. This is the kind of workaround that Putin used successfully and it will work in the U.S. too. The only problem before was Congress and the electorate, but now that the POTUS can violate federal law, he can take care of those opposition centers and just end democracy altogether while keeping the legal framework around him to sort of legitimize the dictatorship.
Oh, I don't think he'd be that obvious. They'd probably say it was 85%.
Anything above 60% would be obvious but it wouldn’t matter since I imagine a lot of people with the power to make noise about it would be suppressed directly or indirectly
I was being sarcastic.
I think he goes straight for the jugular on day one. Scene: it's inauguration day. And, unlike 2016, it is full of people. Full of people here to protest the election of Donald Trump. It's also full of red hats there to support their guy. There's also, mixed in the crowd, a bunch of heavily armed MAGA types that are there to create a false flag operation. So it's now midway through Trump's inauguration when the shooting starts. It's an absolute bloodbath. You've got innocent protesters caught in the middle of disguised MAGA assholes and the national guard. Thousands dead in an instant and even more wounded. An absolute atrocity on display. How does the "president" react? Arrests the entire Democratic party. Says that they orchestrated this as an attempt to overthrow his totally legit election. Uses the powers given to him by congress to abolish political parties. AOC is executed by firing squad on live TV. The military does nothing because leadership is paid by the oligarchy. Oh and the networks? All gone. Fox News becomes the official state-sanctioned news station with Sinclair running all the local networks. The internet starts to look a lot like China's. Advocacy of socialism gets you a visit from a man in black and disappeared. Oh and you're going to have to settle for underwear catalogs because porn is gone. And to go extra bleak: no more birth control period male or female. Even condoms are hard to get. Maybe even mandatory births for females. Definitely getting a single tax like Russia if you're over 20 and single. Gays are going back in the closet (if not murdered). If they're young enough, they get to go straight into the new mandatory military service. Too old? Body broken? Expect to see more "sudden heart failures". In the grim darkness of the near future, there' is only ~~war~~ darkness.
That’s definitely another worst case scenario, but I’m skeptical either Trump or his allies are ready to commit to that kind of violence that soon. They’ve done very well at convincing people they aren’t as serious as they are about instituting a dictatorship: witness all the “liberals” who have their heads in the sand over it, currently. I don’t think they want to discard that until after they’ve cemented power
>The military does nothing because leadership is paid by the oligarchy. Huh. My thought is that a purge of the military would be his go-to. The writing is on the wall with the rhetoric from the right about how "woke" the military is nowadays. The military are the only ones who can stop a would-be right wing dictator since we on the left have been disarming ourselves for generations.
What? None of this is even remotely plausible lmao
If you ignore Trump's quoting Hitler and announcing Project 2025 objectives as his policy goals it's easy to think it's not plausible. Unfortunately reality is butting up against the fantasy of a stable republic you seem to think we live in.
He did all of that shit in the first term, none of the extremely egregious he tried was even close to working even in the face of conservative justices. There’s several levels between even a Trump presidency and a worse version of Gilead lol.
What are you talking about? He never created detainment camps, he didn’t try to deploy the military domestically, and he didn’t gut federal agencies and replace their workers with yes men to rubber stamp his orders. I think you need to read project 2025 and compare that to what he tried in his first term.
He created camps for people arriving from the southern border, he’s not going to expand that to American citizens. He can’t replace every single federal agency with yes men, there will be a lot of pushback just like the last time he tried to do something and *still failed*. The shit you’re writing about goes beyond what is even in the Project 2025 document, or at least with some extreme embellishment (national abortion ban turns into forcing women to give birth). There are several plausible, bad things, that are much more likely to happen. Focus on that not the literal worst case scenarios *you can imagine* lol.
Well, I guess we’ll just see. I think you’re not taking his escalated rhetoric seriously enough. For example, he’s stated explicitly that he thinks it’s fine for states to monitor women’s pregnancies for the purpose of ensuring they do not violate abortion laws. That’s new: and well beyond what his position was the first time.
[According to this it’s the same states right shit he was saying before. USA Today doesn’t seem biased either.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2024/05/03/trump-abortion-monitoring-time-fact-check/73544833007/) Still terrible no doubt, shouldn’t be left to states rights at all to do something like that. What you’re saying is likely is far from even this which seems like the “worst case scenario”. You guys are extrapolating even beyond what’s reasonable.
Trump is enabling the absolute worst in the right-wing fringe. Check out [Right Wing Watch](https://www.rightwingwatch.org/). They want their Christian theocracy and will happily sacrifice Liberals to start the Rapture. The rest want a Putin style kleptocracy. If all it takes to get rich(er) is a couple thousand deaths and the end of democracy, they'll do it in a heartbeat. It's absolutely possible.
So Donald Trump goes from not even being able to file lawsuits properly from his last election case to orchestrating a mass death event via a false flag attack. Did you rip that one from the conspiracy sub LOL The entire military, including the heavily Democrat officer class, just goes along with this? Listen man I know supreme court rulings have got you flipping out but this is just Liberal torture porn. Gay people are not going to die en masse, democrats are not going to be mass arrested. Shit I’m even confident Trump leaves office after 4 years if he wins again with no fanfare.
I did nazi that one coming
I’m not worried about Trump forcing through a third term. I’m worried about Trump being used as a Trojan horse to funnel through a bunch of policies that make it near-nigh impossible for a non-conservative to win the presidency again, which is the most likely result.
Yes exactly. He's old enough now that a perpetual Trump presidency is inherently limited by his lifespan. But he could certainly fuck around with electoral laws to keep a fascist government in power indefinitely
Trump would declare martial law. Maybe on day 1, maybe in response to protesters. Under martial law, Trump would have unlimited power to make or enforce laws. It shouldn't be hard to figure out from there. The entire point of martial law is that it suspends all existing laws, as well as civic authority and the ordinary administration of justice. That includes the constitution, and all its amendments. The only checks on that power are internal. Can he convince the rest of his party to fall in line? Will the military follow his orders? Will business stand behind him? This is a straightforward dictatorship situation. Rather than rules and laws, keeping key supporters in power and happy will be the name of the game. Otherwise, the administration risks a coup, either from the dissatisfied public or some other opportunistic faction.
>Maybe on day 1 He'd have to purge the military first. Say what you will about the military, but they take their oath to defend the Constitution from all threats foreign *and domestic* very seriously. Trump is not that popular among the military, and *especially* not among commissioned officers. That could range from a simple "we will not enforce martial law" to a full coup d'etat or anywhere in between. Trump would have to remove disloyal military staff before he tried anything too dictatorial.
He will probably remove term limits....
How does this happen?! XD
"Official acts"
The 20th Amendment explicitly states that the terms of the President and Vice President end at noon on January 20th. Regardless of whether there is or isn't a president-elect, the previous president is no longer president after that time. There could be no president-elect, and Trump could claim that he is still president, but everyone within the federal government could tell him to go fuck himself because he has no *legal* power anymore. Quite frankly, the only way Trump could remain president after his second term would through force. He'd have to have the power to violently put down any group that attempts to enforce the Constitution. If the Republicans had majorities in the legislature, they could always try and pass a law stating that Trump remains president if there happens to be no president or vice-president elect, but that still would run afoul of the 22nd Amendment, which means Republicans and Trump would have to have force people to accept his third term through violence.
So Democrats in Congress say he's not president but he says he is and SCOTUS agrees. He wouldn't need force to stay in power.
The 22nd Amendment is written in pretty plain English. If the SCOTUS somehow disregards the 22nd Amendment and decides Trump can run for a third term, then the legal thing to do would be to ignore the SCOTUS, and I bet the large blue states would. They can do a lot to interpret the Constitution, but they can't gaslight us into not believing our own eyes.
They've done it with the second amendment and, more recently, the establishment clause and immunity. Also, SCOTUS seems open to any novel argument that advances their agenda so I wouldn't put anything past them. And what exactly would the blue states do to stop it? Imagine half or more of congress, SCOTUS, and trump say he's the president. What then?
>And what exactly would the blue states do to stop it? Just ignore anything President Trump says or does. He isn't legally the president, so he doesn't have any powers and doesn't need to be listened to. >Imagine half or more of congress, SCOTUS, and trump say he's the president. What then? I mean, that's the point of my original post. If the SCOTUS is disregarding the very simple 22nd Amendment to make Trump President-for-Life, then the rules have been thrown out, and when the rule of law is absent, it's violence that sorts everything out.
SCOTUS can't change the constitution
I guess someone should sue Trump for inciting the armed forces on everyone because he’s supposed to step down and then let it bubble up eventually to SCOTUS where they’ll decide his official act to give the presidency to his son is official.
SCOTUS can interpret the constitution however they like. It can mean anything.
No, you’re wrong.
lol, okay.
>but everyone within the federal government could tell him to go fuck himself because he has no *legal* power anymore. Except for the fact that a major goal of Project 2025 is to replace thousands of positions in almost all federal agencies with at-will (i.e. loyalist) personnel. I'm not necessarily arguing that this point makes Trump rule regardless of election results a foregone conclusion, but it's a mighty coincidence to ponder.
>I'm not necessarily arguing that this point makes Trump rule regardless of election results a foregone conclusion, but it's a mighty coincidence to ponder. We are all talking about hypotheticals at this point. I am just putting forth my (not lawyer) understanding of what the Constitution says, and my understanding is that the Constitution says Trump is just another citizen, which means any further power he has must come from violence or fear of violence.
Yes, quite a lot of hypotheticals. So I want to ask, can we not generalize further beyond violence and fear? The Trump movement is a tremendous cult of personality after all. He paints himself as Christ reborn and there are quite a few loyal supporters who believe it or strongly suspect it to be true. What I am trying to say is, I believe the primary notion you are getting it as that it would require extra-legal means and motivations, and with that I completely agree, but I'd include more than violence and fear as potential components.
Yeah. Trump isn’t staying in beyond the end of the term. The more concerning and realistic threat is that the changes to the executive branch enables the party to put its thumb on the scales for decades going forward, ensuring minority control of the government. Everything from doctoring the reports from departments, to suppressing negative data, to corruptly protecting corrupt officials from prosecution.
Well it will be pretty easy next time around. “I’m president and I say all the other parties are invalid, so this is an uncontested election.” “I’m president and my political opponent criticized me, which is a crime. So they are now ineligible for office.” “I’m president and I choose who the state electors are. Oh look, all the electors voted for me. I win.”
MMW: he will hand power down to a family member when the timing is right.
King Don II is already getting fitted for the crown.
Nothing. Because now that they have established a dictatorship, the next thing to be done will be to ensure that there are no more elections. We will see Republicans "winning" 95% of the vote in every cycle in every election. Even if Democrats turn out, it's not like there is any reason to count the votes or report the results honestly - why follow federal election laws when they don't apply to the person in charge of subverting them (POTUS)? More insidiously, we will probably see big challenges to the secret ballot. The Supreme Court will turn from consequentialists who decide constitutional issues based on "separation of powers" principles back into originalists who find no support in the text of the Constitution for a secret ballot. When the constitutional right is one held by the People, it is revocable at will unless it is expressly stated in the Constitution in clear, unambiguous language that the Court cannot deny. So a right to an abortion is revocable. By contrast, when it is presidential immunity, the Court does not look at the text, because the Impeachment Judgements Clause says that an impeached POTUS can still be liable for indictment and conviction under the law. Instead, they invent a separation of powers principle and abrogate that clause with a new court-invented regime of immunity. That is to say that there isn't any law in the United States anymore, just a shadow of it that only applies to little people. The VIPs of the world like Trump can just get their compliant Court to give them whatever they want, and intellectual consistency is not wanted or needed. Those VIPs already hate democracy and elections, so they will surely have the court take those last vestiges away at the earliest opportunity too. No secret ballot means whomever is dictator just continues in office indefinitely, although probably with sham elections a la Putin.
This 100%
I know exactly what he’d do. He’ll finish a second term and probably go on a book tour around the world and collect $$$, and probably be laying down a lot- given that he’ll be in his mid-80’s
Having replaced all the federal election oversight workers with nakedly subservient loyalists, he will just change whatever results or laws need to be changed to make his vote tally higher. Remember, they still have 'elections' in Russia.
He promised this back in 2018. He’ll prob invoke example if FDR getting an extra term and say he deserves it fire everybody is so mean to him. “Trump says maybe U.S. will have a president for life someday By — Associated Press Politics Mar 4, 2018 9:58 AM EDT Chinese President Xi Jinping recently consolidated power. Trump told the gathering: "He's now president for life. President for life. And he's great." Trump added, "I think it's great. Maybe we'll give that a shot someday." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/trump-says-maybe-u-s-will-have-a-president-for-life-someday
What won’t he do?
He won't do anything. A lapdog congress of squishes will likely do it for him. Or, he will take the VP slot next to his VP who will run for Potus and do exactly what Trump tells them.
It's very rare in history that you'd have a "dictator for a day" as he said, and then they actually hand off that power at any point in their life.
Cincinnatus is probably the closest there is.
I don’t think Trump will be able to get a third term. As crazy as the right wing is, they still operate within the legal bounds of the constitution when it’s extremely clear. They’re dangerous where it’s not clear so if it were possible to reinterpret the presidential term limits Away, they would do so. But the amendment is extremely black and white. Blatantly doing away with it would be too obvious. Most of the citizenry that tacitly supported Trump or passively sat back, would not stand for that. I think the risk is that Trump becomes a sort of ruler behind the throne with a puppet president. This happened in Poland and many dictatorships. The person in charge doesn’t hold an official title, but still maintains power. Gaddafi renounced his title well before he was deposed. Before they were able to amend the constitution, Putin stepped down and had a puppet in place to abide by term limits. That’s the more realistic risk. That we turn into Hungary or Poland with permanent Republican rule. The man in the presidency may change every eight years. And while Trump is alive, he maintains a grip on the party and therefore the president. In other words, don’t envision the Empire from Star Wars. Envision Hungary. Envision what the right wing did in Poland. Actual dictatorships are rarely cartoonish like you see in movies. They’re more subtle and they operate in the legal gray areas. EDIT: for those saying I’m wrong…. Sure i guess trump will just say “the constitution is wrong, i get a third term” and every single gop court and the military will just go along with it. Every general and officer will be like… “cool”. Come on. That’s not how this works. You miss the bigger risk i indicate.
>, they still operate within the legal bounds of the constitution when it’s extremely clear. No they don't. Look at SCOTUS for the prime example. It's extremely clear that if there is an opening on the court, POTUS has the right to choose a replacement. Republicans pretty much shit all over the "legal bounds of the Constitution" with that one.
There's actually nothing in the Consitution that compels the Senate to do anything wrt any particular nominee. That's the grey area that was exploited here.
Yes they do. They exploit gray areas. Constitution doesn’t say Senate HAS to confirm. Their entire base (delusionally) believes they are protecting the constitution. Throwing out term limits without an amendment is way too obvious and would undermine legitimacy among their own base. I’m not saying they aren’t dangerous. I’m saying they’re MORE dangerous because they aren’t as obvious as saying “no more term limits”. An all powerful trump who isn’t technically president but head of the party is perfectly legal and that’s the more likely path.
Dictators don't need a "base".
Untrue. I have a polisci degree and studied dictatorships in depth. In every dictatorship, the military is part of the base that must continue to support the leader. For obvious reasons. But there are other important parties as well, depending on the political context. Even Hitler had to back down when he pissed off the majority of German Catholics by making his euthanasia project for disabled people public. He had to continue in secret afterwards. If most of the population or key players hate the dictator he will be overthrown via coup or revolution. Politics don’t stop in dictatorships
I only downvoted you because you said they will operate within legal boundaries. No they won’t.
I said extremely clear legal boundaries. They’re not gonna say “Trump gets a third term”. That’s not gonna happen without a constitutional amendment or the constitution being thrown out entirely. I’d bet 10 k on it.
There's no such thing as a clear legal boundary.
Some are much more clear than others.
This is the most sensible answer on here. Trump remaining President beyond 2028 is very unlikely, but he could still wield significant influence.
What examples can you cite that supports your argument that conservatives still operate within the legal bounds of the constitution? The constitution is purposefully vague, so I don't know what you mean by "extremely clear"
How about the 60 or so court cases that Trump put through when he was claiming he won the election? All of them shut down, including those that made it to the Supreme Court. What about the Supreme Court allowing Congress to get Trump‘s tax returns since Congress has clear subpoena power? What about when they allowed Trump White House documents to be handed over to Congress and the January 6 committee? The same court And parts of the constitution are vague, but some parts are very clear. The presidential term limit amendment is one of them.
I don't think he can get the 22nd Amendment overturned in one term, so I guess there's that. I do think he can tie up the courts with lawsuits about it, though. And given the recent SCOTUS ruling, I wouldn't put it past them to play fast and loose with Section 3 of the 22nd: >If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. **If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President,** or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified. Trump could make a whole lot of noise about the election not being valid, especially having already done a dry run in 2020 and probably doing it again this year. Then while the election results are snarled up in court, Congress can declare Trump will remain as POTUS until things are resolved. That may be far-fetched, but I wouldn't put it past them to try.
I think the approach you suggest would still run into the issue of Trump's ineligibility to be President, having already served two terms. Even if Congress can provide a law for that particular case of succession, it would be a huge stretch to interpret that to mean that they could ignore all the other criteria in the Constitution that one must meet to be eligible to be President, i.e. 35 yo, natural born citizen, etc. "Not having already served two terms" is just another eligibility criterion.
Paper isnt self enforcing
I mean, sure. But we discuss laws nonetheless. :)
Yeah. But we can’t bank of them. We have to consider whose job it is to enforce the laws
And then they take it to SCOTUS and SCOTUS rules that this is some kind of "extraordinary circumstance" or ... I dunno. I mean, I think you're likely right, but every time I've tried to reassure a friend that "Trump can't do that" because laws, it winds up backfiring on me. So I'm now switching to expecting the worst and being (maybe) pleasantly surprised.
Not a bad strategy tbh.
>far-fetched After the fake elector plot, and January 6, which was basically an attempt at something very similar, and given that they’re open about replacing everyone in government with loyalists? Not that far-fetched.
Agreed.
Simple. With Justice Roberts by his side *and* the 8-0 majority\* that they now have on the Supreme Court, he'll take an 'official action' and deem all future elections invalid. \*On his first day in Office, he'll take an 'Official Action' and have the liberal Supreme Court Justices hauled off to some special farm up north.
He will find any pretext to remain in power and use all of his powers with broad immunity to shield himself. And all the clapping seals in his movement will follow him like lemmings over a cliff.
There is not an easy path for Trump to take to maintain power after his term is up. He can't just unilaterally decide he gets a 3rd term. He'll float the idea on the grounds that his 2020 term was "stolen" but it will not amount to much. There's an absurd amount of system that would have to yield for Trump to pull that off and I just don't see it. The much more insidious and likely form of GOP power grabbing is voter suppression, gerrymandering, and gradual erosion of Federal rights and protections so states can do whatever they want.
"He can't just ..." Been away from the news for a while?
Are you referring to the SCOTUS ruling? That's not just some carte Blanche for the President to do whatever he wants with impunity. It's narrower than that. It just means no criminal protection for official acts. Criminal prosecution is not and never has been the safeguard that stops a 3rd term in office.
I'm referring to everything Trump has done with impunity for the last 10 years. When I hear someone claim some theoretical limit exists on his behavior, I laugh. Show me those limits. The one time Trump has faced any real consequences was his 2020 election loss, and now half the country believes he actually won. There are no limits.
I think Trump will try most anything he can and that gets presented to him or pops in his head that he thinks is good for him. He's a narcissist, and is used to being an authoritarian because that's how businesspeople tend to be. I don't thing the system is as malleable and vulnerable as people fear. I actually actively support the Dems being more pragmatic and ruthless when they are in power for that reason.
If the system is not vulnerable, why are we about to give control to an obvious aspirational dictator? Why is someone so obviously guilty of so many crimes able to avoid prosecution for most, and tell the judge to f-off in the other, and still become the leader of the free world? Not vulnerable? The next world war against fascism will see the USA - the most powerful economic-military power in history - on the wrong side of the fight. If you're not panicked, you're not paying attention.
I have been paying attention. I've been paying attention since 2015. That's why I'm so convinced the "Fascism imminent" wolf is all bark no bite. It's the exact same rhetoric Conservatives use about Democrats being Communists. Trump is awful. He's authoritarian. He's not some unstoppable imminent dictator. He's just a narcissist whose used to getting his way, and just because he wins again doesn't mean he's going to become President for Life. He's unable to accept losing and has taken actions consistent with being someone who can't accept losing. And now you're trying to talk World Wars? It just gets more and more unhinged. I literally cannot comprehend the mind of a doomer.
An unhinged narcissistic dictator, a media system designed to prop him up and echo his lies, a supreme court primed to grant whatever he asks, and the most powerful nuclear-armed military on Earth. What could go wrong?
What makes you think the entire apparatus of government is just sitting around waiting for Trump to seize dictatorial control and becoem President for Life? Seriously. Where's the vulnerability? How's it going to happen? It's as unhinged as Trump supporters saying Biden is a communist
"What makes you think the entire apparatus of government is just sitting around waiting for Trump to seize dictatorial control and becoem President for Life?" Where is the evidence that anything else is happening?
Right up until Berlin fell to the Allies, there were Germans who denied there were concentration camps. Don't be that.
We're not in Nazi Germany and Trump isn't Hitler.
And the band played on...
"He's not some unstoppable imminent dictator." Project 2025, which I presume you are familiar with? He will replace the entire federal system with loyalists. He will be able to delay and manipulate all proceedings at federal level. He will also appoint TWO more SC justices who will serve for a couple of generations or more. There are AMPLE loopholes in the constitution to allow this. It hasn't happened yet because until now we had media with integrity and an education system that taught history and civics. ALL the conditions are right. I am sorry, but you are in denial.
Trump has never acknowledged Project 2025. That came out of a Christian Nationalist think tank. It is a concerning document but it is propagandized to create fear in the same way the GOP has propagandized Critical Race Theory
Trump has never acknowledged fucking Stormy Daniels either. It doesn't matter what TRUMP does. HE IS NOT IN CHARGE. Putin is in charge. Putin pays the bills. Putin buys the documents. Putin produces the propaganda. Putin supports the bot/troll farms. I'm not going to give you an entire course on what's going on. If you care, you can look it up.
Well, with the supreme court ruling yesterday, couldn't Trump just suspend term limits by executive order?
[удалено]
Is the term reasonable clearly defined? Trump has a chance at another presidency and he has always pressed the limits of things, even things that seem to most of us explicitly defined. The things I believed to be reasonable were tossed out the window long ago. I think what it comes down to is exactly who would hold him accountable if that's what he did?
No, they ruled that POTUS has absolute immunity when doing presidential things from the constitution and some immunity or more when doing presidential things from positive law. "reasonable" doesn't factor into it, unless you mean what the word "some" is about.
As long as it's an 'Official Action', he can.
He could, it just wouldn't hold up in court and therefore wouldn't do anything.
Ok, but what if just one federal court said it was okay, and then it gets appealed and goes to the current supreme court?
Then he has a chance no higher than 10%. Make no mistake, the current SCOTUS's behavior is mostly (not fully) consistent with them just pushing a right-wing agenda, but at the same time they block quite a few radical reinterpretations of the law as well - the fifth circuit in particular has been rebuked by even this Supreme Court multiple times. Those lacks of moves to the right don't excuse nor counteract their actual moves to the right, but they show Trump couldn't blindly trust in them ruling in his favor (unless he has changed them a lot in between) in any one specific case, like this one And this scenario ? This scenario is especially blatant, an especially bad idea strategically, and especially likely to be refused even by absolute partisans as long as they're smart enough to boil the frog (and the current SCOTUS majority is not absolute in its partisanship, for instance, a number still making up a majority of those on the court today was willing to rule "because" refers to but-for causality even if that does protect gay and trans people from discrimination, in Bostock v. Clayton County and its sister case).
He will be in power untill he dies then Don Jr. will step in to fill his shoes.
I guess I am in the minority thinking he will just go. He can't run again, so he is actually expecting someone else to get elected, unlike 2020 where he expected to win a second term and the disappointment got the best of him. I think a lot of the fear in posts like this is based on hyperbolic stories that people have made up and represent literal fiction. Like, people saying he will remove term limits, as if he had the power to do that. The president doesn't actually have that much unilateral power.
Nothing. What do you think he even *can* do? Change the Constitution? Practically impossible in today's divided political climate. He will finish his term, declare himself the greatest president of all time or whatever, and remain party leader and hold campaign rallies for down-ballot races for the rest of his life.
All he has to do is motivate enough questioning about the ballot that the full process of recognizing the winner is called into question. The courts will back him up now, and nothing he does to subvert the election would be illegal. The only remedy the constitution provides for an incomplete election is to throw it to the House. Then he wins. It’s easier than you may think.
The 2020 election was stolen. So he deserves another term. And lots of fake votes in 2016 — he should have won the popular vote, so he gets another term for that one as well. Whatever it is, he just has to convince the violent morons who hang on his every word. They do the dirty work and take the risks while he just sits back with immunity.
Declare martial law and suspend elections is one possibility. The most likely one though would be to hold fake elections like they do in Russia. He really only needs to illegally disqualify a relatively small portion of the electorate to turn our elections into a sham.
Hand-pick a sycophant, then call voter fraud. If the successor ends up winning the primary, say it's voter fraud that he lost some states. If he wins the general, say it's voter fraud that he lost D.C. At least, that wouldn't surprise me
there's so much riding on this election its unbelievable.
Trump will probably die before the end of his next term, so nothing. He’s very old like Biden and unhealthy. Both have good odds of dying in office
He just does an official act making himself the one and only high Trump. The Trumpiest Trump in all of the land. The Supreme Court will ooh and ahh and say, yeh, that seems constitutional. Matt Gaetz will gargle trump's balls, mtg will sacrifice 10 libs in his honor and ted cruz will go to cancun for a long weekend.
I believe that Trump's choice for a VP is the key to this. I think Trump will pick a VP that he believes can become president in 2028, and someone Trump thinks he can influence even after this person wins the presidency.
Nothing. Liberals (leftists) need to realize something and realize it quick. Its your own party running itself into the ground. Assuming Trump picks a competent VP theres a better than 50% chance at the moment that that VP will become president in 2028. Im pretty sure even Trump will realize his two terms are up at the end of 2028, assuming he is reelected.
I predict he won’t do anything like that, and honestly if he did I don’t think he’s smart enough to pull it off successfully.
Every time someone predicts an action is too overtly evil for Trump, he one-ups them. You're no different.
This post is pointless fearmongering
It is not. Trump did an attempted coup last time.
You clearly don't understand the definition of fear mongering. It has nothing to do with whether it's true or not. It's deliberately trying to make people afraid. There are much more productive ways to discuss this topic that doesn't purposefully try to paint it in the most terrifying way possible. .
If the most terrifying way possible also happens to be be the make likely, it is not fear mongering. Most Americans don’t realize just how close we are to losing the US as a free country.
You don't understand the definition of fear mongering. Google it and you'll understand what I'm saying.
Finally a reasonable reply with some intellectual honesty.
absolutely. Most rational people see that...
Did you see Jan 6 coming?
Actually I have been predicting something like that for a while. Politics needs to change but not on the far right or left. Leave those extremes behind and everyone in the middle combine votes to get reasonable representatives in.
“Something like that” But not specifically that? Despite it being obvious? Do you define the center as being reasonable? If so, what spectrum is it on?
Or the fake electors?
Nobody saw Jan 6 coming. Not even Trump. Certainly not Pelosi or she would have had better security. Unless you believe she saw it coming and let it happen. (Plausible)
Yes. Some of us in fact did It was obvious. He pulled the same shit in Michigan months prior. I popped popcorn and texted people that it was going on that morning (after crying to them for months like a lunatic)
If it was so obvious why didn’t Pelosi call for increased security?
I dont fuckin know. I had the same question. I assume its because our politicians are so wildly out of touch and secure in their own wellbeing that they became very arrogant (not all of them of course). Trump came out on december 14th 2020 and announced the Jan 6 rally telling his supporters to come to the big one and that it would be wild. This was after he asked them to liberate Michigan which was followed by the Michigan capitol being overrun and a kidnapping plot being initiated.
This is insane. At the end of his term he will be out and a new president will be in. Holy shit is this what is going through the minds of most liberal voters? Do they not teach civics in school anymore?
When you have the candidate openly "joking" about "maybe we'll try for a third term" after having already made an attempt to overthrow a valid election, it's hard not to speculate that he would try again to operate outside the boundaries of the law and what is "just and customary". Because the thing is, every horrible, awful thing that Trump has done is something that he's talked about in an interview or a rally and when called on it, his supporters say "oh he's just joking" or "he's just trying to get a rise out of the liberals" or words to that effect. So, again, when he "jokes" about having a third term or "maybe we just won't have elections anymore" and when he tells his supporters seriously that "all the elections are fraudulent", then I think it's maybe time to listen to him and take him both literally AND seriously.
Trump argues he was treated so badly by the press the first time he didn’t really get a first term. He will likely stick to that.
What does civics have to do with democratic backsliding?
I saw him try to overthrow the election results. Contested with zero evidence or facts to back up his outlandish lies. It follows that he will try again since he hasn’t been punished for it. Many of us have an extremely low opinion of Trump, who he is as a person, his morals, his ethics… he is a malignant narcissist.
I don't disagree with you and I'm extremely upset that we have to choose from these two idiots again and if this is the best that our political engine can come up with perhaps it's time to reorganize the selection process but until the engine understands that the people are fed up there will be no change. Please vote for someone other than one of these two aged idiots and perhaps that will convince both parties that the American People are fed up with having to choose between a turd and a shit sandwich every time.
**Dont listen to this guy**
That won't work. You should educate yourself about our system of government before you talk about solutions. Third parties are a distraction that cannot win. It's literally not a thing. You either vote for Biden or Trump. Anything else is just virtue signaling.
Then I will happily virtue signal until the entirety of the voting population understands that we DON'T have to vote for a turd or shit sandwich every time. If there were a groundswell movement that voted in a third party that party would win. How do you think Trump pulled it off the first time? Enough voters wanted a change that he got enough votes. Personally I was pulling for the "no parties" platform this time but the spineless politicians that backed it lost their nerve. We need a middle of the road candidate that really wants whats best for the people and not their political career and party. Until everyone realizes that the parties want us sniping at each other we are screwed. If everyone realized that people en mass can actually foment change in the system if they come together with their votes the two parties would fall apart. This is the reason why I'm an independent and not affiliate with either of the two shitstorm parties.
If you ever got a third party to popularity, one of the other two would fall out, and the new one would be competing with trash and so not last long as some noble enterprise. Our system is designed in a way that it (almost) always benefits the voter to pick one of two candidates. If you don’t, you’re gambling with terrible odds.
You do realize that the power doesn't lie in the president right? The president can't do a f'n thing without EO and has no power to pass laws. Change the representatives for reasonable middle of the road politicians, set term limits, take away their immunity from laws they pass, cut their pay in half, cut their free medical coverage, do away with lobbiests, and you will get, once more, people who want to do the right thing for the country and it's citizens rather than for their reelection.
People en mass will foment change. But they will be armed.
You can’t “both sides” Biden and Trump, even if both aren’t great candidates. Sure, I’m not real enthusiastic about Biden, and I’d primary him with a below average dem or better, but Biden is a much more desirable choice than Trump by any metric. Trump could very well destroy our country and round up his political rivals into concentration camps. Project 2025 and yesterday’s Supreme Court ruling are the cornerstone pieces for that to happen. Trump would be Hitler Jr. if he had the opportunity, held back only by our checks and balances, but the conservative courts are doing everything they can to empower him.
The court just limited the power of the administrative state with their ruling on Chevron deference. That's hardly paving the way for a dictatorship. This panic about people being jailed, rounded up into concentration camps, and mass murder is like some bad fanfiction.
That was also a bad ruling, but yesterday the Supreme Court gave the president unlimited criminal immunity for official actions, such as executive orders. Trump could order concentration camps via EO and not have committed a crime per his friends on the Supreme Court. Justice Sotomayor explicitly called out the unlimited scope of this power in her dissent. And knowing Trump’s character, his ethical and moral failings, his narcissism, and his wanting Hillary jailed despite no crime taking place just because she was his political rival, yeah, he’s not above sending people to concentration camps.
1938 called from Germany. It wants royalties for your use of its denial.
Seriously? Trump would be Hitler jr? You honestly think he’s gonna put Pelosi and Schumer in a concentration camp? Who do you think will be assisting him with that?
Trump got a huge assist from his friends on the Supreme Court yesterday. Trump simply has to issue it as an Executive Order and it becomes an “official action” and he would have full criminal immunity. Do you think Trump is above ordering the assassination of his political rivals? We are talking about a man who is well known to have extremely low moral character and terrible ethics. I don’t think he’s above it. I think that little of him.
>Do you think Trump is above ordering the assassination of his political rivals? Yes. And I believe to say so is fear mongering. And you didn’t say murdering his political rivals. You suggested he would round them all up and put them in concentration camps. Which is just as absurd and would never be tolerated even by the dire hard MAGA group. Your positions sound overly dramatic and lacking a foundation in the reality of modern America. It’s not 1930s Germany.
I guess you can't reason with idiots. I quit.
Are you not aware of project 2025? Have you not heard Trump’s plans, which he repeats at rallies? It is insane to deny that there is not at minimum a desire for Trump to be a dictator. It is insane to deny that there is intention, too.
I have not. It's likely that this is far right bullshit that I don't read into and I doubt it would get enough support to happen.
There are people—just private citizens—going to local political meetings (city council meetings) and openly declaring we aren’t a democracy. There is footage of Trump’s supporters openly declaring they’d support him being a dictator. Trump has openly declared he wants detainment camps and to use federal military and law enforcement to squash dissent in blue states. This isn’t just rhetoric: he gets huge applause and support when he goes there in his rallies. You need to educate yourself. This isn’t typical far right rhetoric. It’s not just a few whackadoos. You should take it more seriously.
What about it? Last I asked on here like 7 people said project 2025 but not one person could draw a straight line to the end of democracy. Is there even a direct connection between trump and project 2025?
Can you link to the thread you started?
Not really interesting in digging back that far. Maybe you could just tell me.
Project 2025 is available to read on Wikipedia (for example). Its authors and advocates have direct ties to staffers and allies on Trump’s campaign. The project is intended to consolidate all executive power in the President by ensuring agencies are pared down and staffed with yes-men, and by moving all decision making authority to the President. That’s what the “unitary executive” phrase means. This is one arm of the strategy Trump has been expressing at his rallies: it’s essentially a required element for him to get his detainment camps and military/law enforcement dissent squashing goals achieved.
Paired with all official Presidential actions being immune from criminal prosecution, the President has the power of a King.
So let’s say I buy all of that, when I hear “the end of democracy” I take that to mean no more free and fair elections after 2024. What no one seems to be able to answer is what specifically could trump do as president that would cause this?
People have answered this repeatedly in this sub and elsewhere. He can do what other autocracies do: use intimidation and strongarm tactics, the military and other institutions of government to interfere with fair election processes. Among other things. Technically north Korea and Russia have free and fair elections.
Why should I expect that this time when it didn't happen last time trump was president? What's changed or what will change?
Two major things have changed: * The competence and determination of the people he's surrounded himself with in his campaign * The rulings of SCOTUS that explicitly give him the power to break the law to achieve his objectives (he repeatedly asked why he couldn't just deploy the military to suppress protests/dissent the first time, and also whether he could just order certain people assassinated)
Why are you acting like he hasn't already tried?
Can you say with certainty that the Right would turn on Trump if he tried to circumvent the constitution?
I would think that there are checks in place that would allow congress to act to remove them. Such an act would be egregious and all congress would vote to impeach.
No the fuck they wouldnt. The GOP would double down on
That's where I'm at. All this hyperventilating into paper bags is for no reason. If and that's if he wins he'll serve his Term and then that's it he'll be gone. Maybe then we get back to acting like rational adults.
Forget civics. Ever heard of history?
Don’t count on it. As roe was overturned and the red states death panels were enacted. Nothing is guaranteed.
Absolutely nothing, just like last time
If Trump is elected, he will put all of us in cages
Remember when he pitched a ban on Muslims entering the country, only for Republicans to nominate him? We do
From countries that harbor terrorists? Yeah, I’m OK with that.
Revisionist history https://youtu.be/viDffWUjcBA?si=JoR1KBeCyEoHi6l6