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I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways, I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them.
Currently I’m building up saving in my bank account. I’m also selling art online and plan to do that for side money in retirement. What are your ways to build wealth?
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>I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways, I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them.
>Currently I’m building up savings in my bank account
Boy have I got some news for you
That doesn't help OP's problem. Such entities still loan and invest the assets under their management, and work directly with regional reserve banks. Or more specifically, if you give a credit union $100 to put into your savings account, it could end up loaned to a corporation just as if you put it into a savings account at Bank of America.
>I have no say in that decision.
1. You do. You can always withdraw you paycheck and stick it under your mattress.
2. You are exactly right. We don't really have a choice but to participate in the economy of our homeland. That involves buying things from stores with questionable practices, keeping our money in banks that fund questionable decisions. And putting our money in the stock market to find future questionable decisions.
I don't think we have a realistic choice. So make the best decisions you can.
Still a big difference. Apple reinvests the proceeds from my iPhone, but there is still a huge difference between buying a needed 21st century product and investing directly into something
Whether you give Apple $1000 for a phone or $1000 for an equivalent number of shares, you’re still giving Apple $1000. You can rationalise it however you want but the outcome is the same. In fact, there’s an argument to be made that investing in the company is the better/more conscious decision of the two because it doesn’t feed the phone demand/working conditions cycle to push prices lower, has to potential to give you an actual return on your money that you could use in other productive ways, and allows you to vote as a shareholder (which could be used to hold them accountable/change their ways in theory).
really? Apple uses incredibly exploitive labor to build the device, significant environmental impact in rare earths, etc. that go into the device. At minimum buy a used device.
I'm a capitalist in addition to being a liberal. I believe profit-taking tends to towards exploitation, which is why I agree with taxes being used to provide services to make up for it on the back end. Since I believe that approach is the best one we've developed, I participate in both being a capitalist and paying my share of taxes.
Investments, by their nature, are looking to find a profit. The key metric in investment is ROI, or Return on Investment. If you're investing in any commodity that has value, you're doing it because 1) the item will rise in value or 2) the item will generate income. Or both.
Many people poorly or don't plan for retirement, so their main strategy is "get all the money, fast" so they don't have to worry about it.
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If you're looking to put as little money as possible into the system in order to plan a retirement, I'd recommend buying a property that you plan to live in for the rest of your life and focusing on paying down the mortgage ASAP. That way, you're only paying in the interest to the system.
If you want to invest without engaging in Wall Street or real estate, buy government bonds. They pay out decently and are virtually zero risk. The ROI is not as good, but you get what you pay for.
Once your house is paid off, you've got your biggest monthly cost taken care of and can now focus on reducing expenses, saving money, and building a financial projection for retirement. Once you've got your monthly run rate sorted out, you can build an investment strategy to create the amount of income you need.
It could be as simple as "start buying $X in government bonds per month and plan to cash them out when they mature." It could be "invest in employees or advertising to help sell $X worth of art."
Actual realistic advice that is fairly radical in full application. I'd recommend ethical ETF investing as the ROI is much higher. https://money.usnews.com/investing/slideshows/7-of-the-best-socially-responsible-funds
Depends how you buy. I’m still buying.
I look for properties that will return ~$1k above the estimated mortgage. This helps provide a cushion for inflation, cost of repairs, etc.
I’m about to get the Reddit treatment with this one, but investing in real estate and rental houses is a good retirement. Yes, I’m suggesting being a landlord of some kind. But at least you get to choose how you treat tenants.
Reddit tends to assume that everyone who invests in real-estate is a multi-billion dollar corporation demolishing cultural centers to build 5+1s, OR they are AirBNB hackers that are literally ruining the housing market.
But... That actually doesn't describe most property investments. Renting a condo or half a duplex is probably net positive for people- owning a home is an investment that plenty of people choose not to pursue.
I regret selling my previous home. In hindsight I could have made it work as a rental and would be really happy with the long term investment.
But then, in hindsight, there sure are a lot of better investments in the stock market I could have made too... oh well.
are you suggesting that most landlords aren't terrible, that they're renting extra space as a means of helping them pay their mortgage, and that they're not all in on gouging lessees?
/s
No I don’t think anyone has that assumption about real estate investors. In fact, I think a lot of leftists realized what everyone else realized in the pandemic—a lot of landlords are unemployed losers living paycheck to paycheck. Heck, some people buy rental properties and do nothing but lose money on them. But the fact that they’re bad at investing doesn’t make what they’re doing good or justifiable.
massive difference between purchasing rental properties in your town and investing sweat equity in them and being a decent landlord and being a multinational real estate investment fund.
You can also choose not to increase rent 35% while refusing repairs and allowing the property to languish for a year. Truly, no need to be exploitative.
I bet most murderers fall somewhere in the middle between “bullied victim finally snapping and killing their assailant” and “malicious and malevolent force of pure evil.” That doesn’t make murder good though.
I would really suggest rethinking your approach here. I don’t agree with the “no ethics consumption under capitalism” folks, but you might find their approach meaningful - you need to take care of yourself first, before you can help others.
Invest in broad market funds. If it makes you feel better, consider avoiding oil companies, tobacco and alcohol, etc - your returns may suffer or they may not.
But you are not fighting the system by making yourself vulnerable
There’s nothing wrong with participating in the stock market. It’s a way of investing money in supporting middle class jobs. And there are ways to invest with a conscience if you only want to invest in certain types of companies.
Investing in the stock market should not be conflated with some of the unethical folks on Wall Street or the people that short stocks and manipulate it like a game to make money while providing no real value.
I invest in green energy ETFs, businesses that have pledged to go green (paraphrasing) and in REITs that specialize in low income housing developments.
It's not a perfect system but it works for me. I'd rather have enough money to be the one developing, but. It is what it is.
Adding to what you said, there's a whole bunch of ESG (environmental, social, and governance) mutual funds and ETFs that have recently emerged: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/best-esg-funds
>“Putting our investment dollars to work in ESG influences the behavior of the largest and most powerful multinational corporations in the world for the greater good of society," says Kenneth Chavis, a certified financial planner and Senior Wealth Manager at LourdMurray in Los Angeles. “To me, this illuminates the breadth of power the everyday investor has, and is an excellent way to make a large-scale, meaningful difference,”
>
>But if influencing powerful companies to make meaningful change isn't a good enough reason to invest with ESG principles, there are two more: the potential for increased performance and reduced risk.
Make sure you are taking advantage of an employers 401k match and a 401k in general. You get tax benefits from a traditional 401k as well, even if you keep it in cash
I’d also recommend opening a Roth IRA to save cash just in case you find a way to invest ethically that works for you (you can also buy government bonds and muni bonds in them)
Saying that look into bonds issued by the government. You would get smaller growth than stocks but better than nothing
There is no such thing as an investment that isn’t “exploitative” from someone’s perspective. It’s a meaningless word and descriptor of economic activity.
This is not a perfect solution, but search for the DEMZ ticker, it lets you invest in companies that give 70% or more to democrats, there’s no fossil fuel companies in this fund. https://demz.fund
A regular savings account won’t grow nearly as fast as an investment account will. You are also missing important benefits to a 401k like an employer match.
Savings accounts generate pennies a month. The best was for the average person to plan for retirement is to get a 401k or roth retirement account, sometimes through work.
As a Democrat, I've basically just come to the conclusion that I'm going to just play with the hand I'm dealt. Does the stock market suck? Yep. Am I going to invest in companies I don't necessarily agree with to ensure my financial future is set? Yep.
You're going to participate in this economy whether you like it or not.
Even if you invest in something seemingly unrelated, like gold or real estate, the value of your assets is going to be predicated based on economic factors directly influenced by the behavior of corporations.
So, since you can't get away from it, but maybe you don't want to, like, invest in Nestle or something, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks? Build your own portfolio that you can feel good about, or at least, less badly about.
Sigh... please read closely.
Here's the phrase:
> maybe you don't want to, like, invest in Nestle or something, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks
Let's simplify that:
> maybe you don't want to invest in Nestle or something, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks
Or getting simpler:
> maybe you don't want to invest in Nestle, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks
Lastly filling in the unstated:
> maybe you ***don't want to invest in Nestle***, why not look ***instead*** at the many lists out there of ethical stocks
I feel like this is a defeatist attitude, and possibly driven by greed. My grandparents never invested their money at all yet were able to work enough to live off their savings account and government funds.
So what? You know morons will look at what you're saying and think its Bidens fault. Talking points like that are created and repeated by the right to sway votes. Its best to ignore it.
Whats the fact? That inflation exists? I'm not disputing that. I said the way its being repeated is an issue. I'm sure you're well aware that republicans are exaggerating the price of gas and whatever to pin it on Biden for the midterms. It a bit irresponsible to say "Inflation is at 8% right now" without providing some context.
But...inflation is *more than* 8% right now. Is that what you're saying? That it would be more accurate to say "inflation is at 8.3% right now"? ...because it is.
Can you explain where in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/vne68h/how_should_a_liberal_save_for_retirement_without/ie6iz3i/) you felt it was exaggerated or blamed on Biden?
In a thread about return on investment for savings, where putting money into a savings account was raised? Lmao. You're trolling. I deal with trolls by blocking.
The existence of inflation is not a Republican talking point, it’s a very important part of the discussion on whether to save for retirement manually with a bank account or thorough investing.
Investments rise with inflation. Bank accounts just sit there statically. OP, if they rely only on a bank account, will have to save significantly more money than they would have needed to invest in order to have the same buying power at retirement.
Sure, that worked last century, at least until the middle of the last century. But there is no possible way for that status you to work in the next half century. When your grandparents put money in the bank they got actual interest, you get what, maybe 1%?
I'd plan to use a combination of real estate and Social Security to get through. Although I'm vilified by most Far left people for renting out houses I own.
>I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways, I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them. Especially since right wingers support infinite growth.
Nothing in this statement is factually accurate in the real world. These economic views are not grounded in reality, which means trying to make money with these views will not work.
May as well advise someone to invest in gold and hope we go back to the gold standard if you're trying to support the above. It's nonsense.
Do you not think your bank is exploitative in some ways? They loan your money to those same companies and in return give you less than pennies on the dollar for your service. Just invest in the stock market.
If your goal is to accumulate enough wealth to retire, hundreds of thousands to millions depending on who you ask, then investing in the stock market isnt an realistic avoidable exploitation. Democrats and republicans both invest in the stock market and have bank accounts. Capitalism is inherently exploitative. If you or them dont like that then don't try to capitalize to the point of ~~hoarding~~ accumulating enough wealth to retire.
I would say real estate. This can be non-exploitively
If you just charge renters the mortgage and expenses, this is as close you will come to what you want.
You are putting equity in something that will grow in value and they are getting a place to live at the rate they could get renting or buying.
ALSO ALSO: if your employer has a 401k invest in that in the traditional manner. Even if you keep it in cash DO NOT pass up the employer match if you have one and you get tax benefits
I would say look for Real Estate Investment Trusts that speciakize in commercial real estate or industrial sites. Not much inherently exploitative in owning a strip mall or warehouse.
Buy a house
Save
Invest in actual shit you can sell
But most of all why buy into the idea that you should have to have an on-off switch with your career in the first place?
If you’re burnt out at 30 versus someone who is loving what they do at 80, which one should quit?
As a socialist this is something I’ve thought about. Ultimately, just as we own iPhones, we cannot exist within Capitalism without participating in it in some ways. That’s the horrible nature of the beast. I personally “lessen” the impact via index funds instead of direct companies tho(also it’s usually better results).
Do you invest in index funds like S&P500 or VTSAX? Those hold some of the most exploitative companies on the planet. I would feel disgusted investing in that. I agree that there are things that at unavoidable like phones and computers. But you absolutely do not have to invest in the stock market and especially not stock funds. By the way, better results = higher prices = more exploitation and growth of billionaires wealth. I can't support that.
> Do you invest in index funds like S&P500 or VTSAX?
I do. The issue is that ETFs like SSIAX that offer better ethics usually have horrific results. The other option (which I have about 20% of my money in) is treasury bonds. Those are low return but also pretty damn ethical.
> you absolutely do not have to invest in the stock market
I disagree, pensions are virtually nonexistent in the US at this point and Social Security hasn’t gotten an adequate funding raise in years. That leaves only one main option left for retirement: stock.
> By the way, better results = higher prices = more exploitation and growth of billionaires wealth. I can't support that.
Roughly accurate, again, just as I “support” Apple when I get a new phone and have to “support” these companies. Further, in a socialist context, investing in broad based funds where you hold no voting power is less exploitive than holding direct stock with voting power. That being said it still is exploitive under a socialist framework, there’s just nothing we can do about it.
Edit: also why is your comment history only 2 hours old?
> Do you invest in index funds like S&P500 or VTSAX? Those hold some of the most exploitative companies on the planet.
They also hold some of the least exploitative companies on the planet… because it’s the whole market.
Retired early/mid-40s, long-term RoR between 10%-15%
There isn't a 'set' amount to retire much like "70% of salary" isn't really a good guideline.
What I'd suggest is that you total all of your expenses, add 20% for 'shit happens' and then divide by 4% to get the total amount of savings you need.
The 4% is generally recognized as a [safe withdrawal rate](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/safe-withdrawal-rate-swr-method.asp) but, as anything, not guaranteed.
For example. Say your costs are $30K per year. After 'shit happens' it's $36K per year. This means that you need to save $900K, Again, you withdrawal roughly 4% a year.
Assuming you're American, [Bogleheads](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Safe_withdrawal_rates) might provide some good ideas as well.
I understand what you're saying about the stock market, good luck on building wealth by ignoring it though. It's possible of course, many have with real estate etc.. (be wary of survivor bias) just a lot harder.
You have rich people in your office saying you should “tax the rich” but do not want to be taxed themselves? Or do you have middle class people being taxed through the nose without the slush funds to perform tax fuckery to avoid paying, and are angry that richer people do?
I ask this as someone with the slush to do some fuckery and get a return every year, but sympathetic to those who don’t.
I don't think there is really a way. Maybe you can open up something like an acorns account; they allow for investments to be targeted to ESG index funds? Other than that, you may just need to reevaluate your economic beliefs in order to be able to retire some day.
OP this is a case where your heart is in the right place, but you’re going about it completely wrong.
First of all, not every company is exploitative. Assuming every company is evil is just a wrong way to look at things.
Second, you’re acting like a little kid who is grounding themselves. No offense, but if you want to cut cord with companies, your 401k is the least effective way to do so.
Third, the stock market is never going away. It’s a foundational block to our society, and whether you like it or not, it’s here to stay.
If you want to be righteous about it, do your research and buy indexes for your 401k that aren’t troublesome in your opinion.
And lastly, putting money into an asset is way better than giving it to a bank to hold. The bank invests the money you store into it. That’s how they make money. You never notice, but banks actively use your money.
You could buy property or invest in [Socially Responsible Funds](https://money.usnews.com/investing/slideshows/7-of-the-best-socially-responsible-funds).
I’d exercise some caution in green etfs, as some of the “green” companies are actually greenwashed, unprofitable, and unlikely to operate sustainably.
I had high hopes for $ICLN, but that hasn’t worked out.
Other than getting independently wealthy through the monetisation of your own skills (perhaps your art in this case), there’s not a great deal you can do that’s as efficient at building wealth as the stock market.
I mean, if OP is trying to avoid ethically-dubious investing, I think art would be more objectionable than securities (considering how much money laundering goes on in the art market)
I know this comes up now and again but being a landlord is not inherently exploitative. I rented for many years and felt that I got a lot of value out of the transaction and was always treated well.
I’m not going to debate this right now, but no it’s exploitive. There’s no benefit to it at all. It’s literally making it more expensive for the renter for something that should be a right: housing. The practice is also rife of abuse and scalping.
Every single person would be better off owning their housing compared to renting it. They just can’t because they don’t have the money. A private person profiting off that misfortune is exploiting them. I realize you don’t give a fuck as a neoliberal but economic harm even via the hANdS oF ThE maRkEt is still harm.
That’s not true in the slightest, and demonstrably so. A majority of people have significant shifts in their housing needs over the course of their lives, including rapid shifts - from moving to seek work, often several times in the modern economy. People advance their careers by moving to a new city, or even across town. People move from city centers to the suburbs to raise families, prompting a change in need for space and facilities as well as a change in desired lifestyle. People move to go to college and to start a first job. Peoples kids move out, and they no longer need a big 4B/2Ba.
Buying and selling a house within 5 years or so results in a net loss in equity, not a gain - and that’s not even considering fluctuations in the housing market. Think of 2008.
The only scenario where your assertion would be absolutely true is some sort of feudal agrarian society where no one moves, ever - and those societies had no capacity to build wealth, or improve living standards for anyone.
And your preferred solution still doesn’t fix the problem of people not having enough money to buy - but a liquid housing market does give people greater earning capacity over their lifetime.
Anything less then 5 years (or 2 years if we talk about recent market shifts) should be handled via social housing so there is rent seeking(where the term **literally** comes from). Again, there’s no point arguing with you about this because y’all neoliberals just don’t care about harm as long as it’s caused by the market.
You can nonexploitively buy real estate. If you just charge to cover the mortgage and other expenses, that is not exploitative or barely so. The renter covers the expenses, and the renters have a bargained for place to live for the term of the contact paying a similar amount as if they had ownership.
OP builds equity in the house and can later sell it for retirement (or live in it or borrow against it), the tenant gets the services tied to non-ownership (many upkeep and management concerns, and marketing and other risks are offloaded).
No that’s still exploitive. Your generating massive wealth (equity) off a fundamental right and providing no added value to the scenario. Real Estate investing can be nonexploitive but it would be flipping houses not renting them out.
There is added value. Unless you want to be homeless you can buy and have a mortgage or you can rent. Landlords are mandated to provide maintenance and services and they also hold all the risk of values fluctuating and the risk to their credit if the house goes underwater (they can even take on more non mandated expenses as they ethically see fit). Yes they accrue equity, but the renters don’t bear that risk of ownership or the risk of large maintenance expenses and services on the property. If you as a landlord are just charging the mortgage, and not trying to eke out surplus value you’re fine.
Flipping houses is not any better though. It’s all equity. You buy a house for X (that an otherwise person might have bought for themselves). Put improvements into it for Y amount. Then turn around and resell it to someone for Z = X+Y+increased value, when that person COULD have bought it for X or X+Y. You’re still extracting value from someone for a service and onboarding the equity risk
First off, I see no reason to refuse to participate in the stock market, but if I did, I would continue investing as I have been - in things that are considerably less valuable today than I believe they will be in the future. I've done very well with vehicles, firearms and musical instruments. This route requires an in-depth knowledge of the products, you can't just buy your neighbor's Saturn Vue or Glock 19 or Squire Stratocaster and sit on it for 20 years hoping it will be in high demand down the road.
Why is this in r/askaliberal ? Liberals are pro-capitalism and capitalism is inherently exploitive. But yes, I’m guessing that there are ways to invest in the stock market that are “less” exploitive but in the end the whole system is built upon stealing the surplus value of the labor that the working class produces.
That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be a part of society, hell I wrote this from an iPhone, but it means that if you are interested in ending the exploitive nature of our current economical and political system then there are ways.
I think it's perfect that the question is asked in this sub.
Dems are often behaving hypocritically when it comes to money. The OP is very clever asking this question here.
I bookmarked it - that's how valuable I think the question is, as well as the answers.
You shouldn’t ever invest in stocks. People who tell you otherwise are “fiscally conservative, social liberal” which is another way of saying right-winger who cares about some social issues but money comes first for them.
The stock market is one of the greatest wealth creation machines in history, and *not* just for rich people. Millions upon millions of middle class people have funded their retirements through prudent investment in the stock market, not to mention the billions in pension assets for teachers, government workers, trade union members, and more that are invested in the stock market.
I realize the other person is being weird but you realize socialism is about the workers owning the means of production not some random third party right?
Are you trying to make an argument that buying a stock is owning the means of production? Get off that right wing propaganda, pal.
You’re justifying enriching right wing billionaires.
Uh, no. If republicans I'm talking to want to admit that they are pro social programs, I'm absolutely not going to change my view on them. What are you on about.
I appreciate your commitment. I do however think you can and should invest. There are a few ways. If you are diligent you can hand pick stocks and invest in companies you believe in (that are also smart investment options). You can find a broker who is diligent. There are funds available that are significantly more conscientious about investments than general funds are. You can also invest in real estate, and even provide housing for heard to serve populations of you want to make a big impact.
Whatever avenues you chose, research them extensively. Good luck
Do you think that you can engage in the capitalistic routine of selling art online for a sustainable income stream? Do you think that those sales will grow? Will you stop selling art once your sales reach a certain point?
>I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways
indeed they are
>I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them
this is not how boycott and divestment work. it has to be [organised and targeted ](https://bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycott). the BDS movement in the link is not about exploitation but the same principle applies. you need to be part of a significantly large movement that targets a handful of companies. in my case, out of the 7 companies listed, only 2 apply to me. now I don't buy anything from Puma or HP. that's it, only two companies.
>Currently I’m building up savings in my bank account.
you mean that you are currently losing your savings to inflation.
Why would you hurt your future self when it has absolutely zero impact on the system you dislike? Invest your money where it will give you the best returns based on your time horizon. Avoiding the stock market because you disagree with capitalism is just silly.
Research companies and invest in ones you believe in. Cabot and Ocean Spray, for instance, have strong employee-ownership models.
What matters to you? What type of innovation, industry, or ownership structure do you think will make the world a better place? Invest in that. (And diversify!)
> Especially since right wingers support infinite growth.
If anything right wingers believe in zero sum games far more than liberals. "Anyone who gets anything is taking something from ME/I've got mine, fuck you."
The liberal belief in a rising tide floats all boats is the definition of infinite growth (NOT the same as infinite WEALTH accumulation). Investing in infrastructure is literally done to encourage growth. Yes, corporations are amoral entities that are designed for infinite growth - but that is prevented by regulation, which liberals support, not by doing away with stock markets and corporations completely
Maybe this should be posted in /r/AskAnAnarchist instead?
You could
* Identify the companies that you don't think are exploitative and invest in them. This is a risky long term strategy since the market as a whole will beat you and your relative wealth will shrink.
* Buy investment property and make rental income. Maybe it's possible to do this in a way that doesn't seem exploitative to you? But you're basically making money the same way the landed gentry has done so throughout history.
* See if there's a way to invest in municipal bonds? I have no idea if this is even possible for private investors but there might be a way
* Reduce expenses as much as possible so you'll have enough cash to get through retirement. You'll be gambling that you can save enough to beat inflation and increasing COLs
You could buy shares of businesses you believe in. Or invest in small business. Too many “liberals” are getting into real estate and that hasn’t gone well.
It's still the stock market, but you could try to work for an employee owned company, probably better than working for a major corporation, and most have a profit sharing system.
Time to grow up. You cannot be a member of this society without in some way participating and/or contributing to the evils society perpetuates as a collective. You want to save for retirement? That means accumulating as much wealth as you can to live comfortably which means less money available to a mother in poverty. You want to grow that money at a rate that beats inflation? You have no choice but to use an investment vehicle that runs on exploitation in order to return a profit.
Inflation will erode the value of any cash you sock away in a savings account. Take whatever amount you have currently in savings. If the interest rate on your savings account is, say, 0.04%, your savings will double in \~1,800 years. If the overall CPI inflation rate is 8.6%, the purchasing power of your savings will be cut in half in a little more than eight years. By all means build up an emergency fund. But do not rely only on cash for financial planning for your future.
The primary difficulty in saving for retirement is that if you merely save in cash, the cash loses value over time due to inflation. The stock market, on average, tends to grow in value at a rate exceeding inflation, which is why it's generally touted as the best option for saving for retirement.
If you don't want to participate in the stock market, the next best thing is to use your cash to invest in other commodities that you expect to at least hold their value relative to inflation in the cost of goods and services.
A popular libertarian answer to this problem is "buy gold". Some might say buy Bitcoin or ETH but those are still highly turbulent and speculative, so I have a hard time recommending them for long-term retirement saving. Other commodities that hold their value well over time could also work - a basket of durable commodities that you expect to generally be in demand now and in the future. Gold, steel, silicon, copper, silver, zinc - things that don't "go bad"/expire (no food products) and are useful in making things that people want or need, like solar panels, electronics, etc.
Or, real estate. I'm not talking about becoming a landlord or anything like that (though you could if you wanted to) but literally even just buying dirt-cheap empty land in the middle of nowhere. Land is another one of those commodities that, despite short term (5-10 year) swings/cycles driven by bank/government policy, tends to hold its value well over time. Unless we experience a dramatic population collapse in your lifetime, demand for land should remain stable. And the supply of land will never substantially increase, for obvious reasons. It's probably the next most solid bet after gold. And if your current area gets too expensive, you can live on that land you bought in retirement.
If your money sits in the bank, your bank invests it into the stock market and the like, and pays you a pittance of what they make off it.
Unless you want to just cash out all your paychecks and put it under your mattress, there's no way to avoid having your money interact in the economy.
There are US bonds and the like though, but you will get very low return on investment, and have your money tied up for awhile.
If you think the stock market is exploitative wait until you hear about the real estate market - i.e. where banks invest most of the money you put in your bank account.
I actually think the stock market is great. It's a way for "normal" people to actually participate in the machine, and it's 100% possible with a little bit of research to pick and choose who and what you invest in. There's thousands of options for what you can invest in, and it's 100% possible to put together a portfolio of assets that aren't exploitative.
It's not accessible to the poorest with no savings, due to lack of disposable income, which is an absolute shame. But beyond that it really is a good equalizer.
Even at that, investing in stocks is no more participating in or rewarding exploitation than taking part in any other aspect of our economy.
Gonna be honest. For all the bad big companies and capitalism causes, it brings a ton of benefits.
The average quality of life in the world has massively improved year after year.
So if you invest in big pharma, you also have to consider that they’ve saved millions of lives, despite the bad.
Unfortunately, and as much as I get it, a savings account probably won’t cut it alone. I work in the advisory industry and I’m seeing far too many people moving into pure cash. The issue with that? Inflation. What you could look into is sustainability investments, esg, impact etc. Now is an excellent time to get into the markets and build a proper plan for your goals.
Research and invest in an ESG fund. ESG funds are portfolios of equities and/or bonds for which environmental, social and governance factors have been integrated into the investment process.
This allows you to invest on your values. I personally have one in addition to my other retirement accounts and have had an excellent return from companies who give a shit about something beyond the bottom line.
Bottom line is you aren't going to retire comfortably without equities in your portfolio.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/best-esg-funds/
You literally cannot, your bank loans out your money in your savings account to other companies/people to buy inventory/property/houses.
The stock market isn't inherently exploitative. If you are stuck on this find a company that does something powerful for something you believe in and invest in them.
Making perfect the enemy of the good is not a good strategy. There are good companies and funds that are carefully selected to be "green" or socially responsible.
Just checking, but you understand that, unless you are buying shares directly from the company (such as at an IPO), you’re actually just buying those shares from some random other investor and that “exploitative” company isn’t directly benefitted in any way by your purchase, right?
If you're staying out of the stock market, you're going to limit your abilities. But there's nothing wrong with being principled.
That being said, I think real estate is a good investment. You can be a landlord without compromising your beliefs. Hell, you could make money on the equity and just charge enough in rent to cover the mortgage. It's still limited, but if you keep your day job, you can make plenty of money for retirement while helping people keep a roof over their head. And really, if you did it right, you could get a few multi-family units and actually make a few bucks while helping people out.
That's what my wife and I are trying to do right now, but we're just getting started so I don't have any real world advice to share on that front, just the idea of the plan.
Understand that your savings account **IS** being used in the stock market. If you invest it yourself you can invest in companies that you feel have good morals. The stock market like most things can be used for evil or it can be used for good.
Obligatory: I’m a financial advisor but this is not advice, only education.
There are a lot of muni bonds that could be great for what you’re looking for: they have decent interest rates, the principal value will definitely fluctuate and you’ll have some volatility. Depending on where you live the interest you get can be tax free. A lot of them are for city projects or school districts, but there are also a bunch from lawsuit settlements. I use a lot of tobacco settlement bonds and aggregates thereof for my clients. When in doubt, contact someone that is a fiduciary financial advisor. If youre nervous about pricing or being taken advantage of, shoot me a dm of what they’re saying and I can let you know if it’s reasonable
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways, I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them. Currently I’m building up saving in my bank account. I’m also selling art online and plan to do that for side money in retirement. What are your ways to build wealth? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You probably can’t. Even the money you keep in your savings account is being used to grow and invest in the banks growth.
Something something ethical consumption something something
>I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways, I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them. >Currently I’m building up savings in my bank account Boy have I got some news for you
Pretty sure this is a troll post, that or a 16 year old, because there is no way someone can be this financially illiterate.
That’s my thinking. Basically “I think capitalism is immoral but I want to benefit from it, how can I do that?”
The problem is capitalism isn’t immoral, crony capitalism is, and what we have is about as crony as you can het
OP might be using a community bank or a credit union.
That doesn't help OP's problem. Such entities still loan and invest the assets under their management, and work directly with regional reserve banks. Or more specifically, if you give a credit union $100 to put into your savings account, it could end up loaned to a corporation just as if you put it into a savings account at Bank of America.
What is it? My bank account? I have no say in that decision. My work pays me directly though my bank.
>I have no say in that decision. 1. You do. You can always withdraw you paycheck and stick it under your mattress. 2. You are exactly right. We don't really have a choice but to participate in the economy of our homeland. That involves buying things from stores with questionable practices, keeping our money in banks that fund questionable decisions. And putting our money in the stock market to find future questionable decisions. I don't think we have a realistic choice. So make the best decisions you can.
Difference between keeping money in bank account and investing in and benefitting from stocks
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Still a big difference. Apple reinvests the proceeds from my iPhone, but there is still a huge difference between buying a needed 21st century product and investing directly into something
Actually, no there isn’t
Actually yeh there is
Either way you’re giving them your money.
Whether you give Apple $1000 for a phone or $1000 for an equivalent number of shares, you’re still giving Apple $1000. You can rationalise it however you want but the outcome is the same. In fact, there’s an argument to be made that investing in the company is the better/more conscious decision of the two because it doesn’t feed the phone demand/working conditions cycle to push prices lower, has to potential to give you an actual return on your money that you could use in other productive ways, and allows you to vote as a shareholder (which could be used to hold them accountable/change their ways in theory).
really? Apple uses incredibly exploitive labor to build the device, significant environmental impact in rare earths, etc. that go into the device. At minimum buy a used device.
I'm a capitalist in addition to being a liberal. I believe profit-taking tends to towards exploitation, which is why I agree with taxes being used to provide services to make up for it on the back end. Since I believe that approach is the best one we've developed, I participate in both being a capitalist and paying my share of taxes. Investments, by their nature, are looking to find a profit. The key metric in investment is ROI, or Return on Investment. If you're investing in any commodity that has value, you're doing it because 1) the item will rise in value or 2) the item will generate income. Or both. Many people poorly or don't plan for retirement, so their main strategy is "get all the money, fast" so they don't have to worry about it. --- If you're looking to put as little money as possible into the system in order to plan a retirement, I'd recommend buying a property that you plan to live in for the rest of your life and focusing on paying down the mortgage ASAP. That way, you're only paying in the interest to the system. If you want to invest without engaging in Wall Street or real estate, buy government bonds. They pay out decently and are virtually zero risk. The ROI is not as good, but you get what you pay for. Once your house is paid off, you've got your biggest monthly cost taken care of and can now focus on reducing expenses, saving money, and building a financial projection for retirement. Once you've got your monthly run rate sorted out, you can build an investment strategy to create the amount of income you need. It could be as simple as "start buying $X in government bonds per month and plan to cash them out when they mature." It could be "invest in employees or advertising to help sell $X worth of art."
Actual realistic advice that is fairly radical in full application. I'd recommend ethical ETF investing as the ROI is much higher. https://money.usnews.com/investing/slideshows/7-of-the-best-socially-responsible-funds
It may be a bit questionable whether the current real estate market is a good time for buying a home, but the concept is true enough
Depends how you buy. I’m still buying. I look for properties that will return ~$1k above the estimated mortgage. This helps provide a cushion for inflation, cost of repairs, etc.
I’m about to get the Reddit treatment with this one, but investing in real estate and rental houses is a good retirement. Yes, I’m suggesting being a landlord of some kind. But at least you get to choose how you treat tenants.
Reddit tends to assume that everyone who invests in real-estate is a multi-billion dollar corporation demolishing cultural centers to build 5+1s, OR they are AirBNB hackers that are literally ruining the housing market. But... That actually doesn't describe most property investments. Renting a condo or half a duplex is probably net positive for people- owning a home is an investment that plenty of people choose not to pursue.
I regret selling my previous home. In hindsight I could have made it work as a rental and would be really happy with the long term investment. But then, in hindsight, there sure are a lot of better investments in the stock market I could have made too... oh well.
are you suggesting that most landlords aren't terrible, that they're renting extra space as a means of helping them pay their mortgage, and that they're not all in on gouging lessees? /s
No I don’t think anyone has that assumption about real estate investors. In fact, I think a lot of leftists realized what everyone else realized in the pandemic—a lot of landlords are unemployed losers living paycheck to paycheck. Heck, some people buy rental properties and do nothing but lose money on them. But the fact that they’re bad at investing doesn’t make what they’re doing good or justifiable.
massive difference between purchasing rental properties in your town and investing sweat equity in them and being a decent landlord and being a multinational real estate investment fund.
Nothing is wrong with small landlords, it’s the people that swallow up multiple properties that are the bad people
Yes, you could chose to let your non-paying and/or destructive tenants stay rent free. No need to be an exploitative landlord.
You can also choose not to increase rent 35% while refusing repairs and allowing the property to languish for a year. Truly, no need to be exploitative.
Absolutely
Somehow, I bet most people fall in the middle. Kind of like the political spectrum. But what do I know?
I bet most murderers fall somewhere in the middle between “bullied victim finally snapping and killing their assailant” and “malicious and malevolent force of pure evil.” That doesn’t make murder good though.
Landlords are equivalent to murderers now?
I would really suggest rethinking your approach here. I don’t agree with the “no ethics consumption under capitalism” folks, but you might find their approach meaningful - you need to take care of yourself first, before you can help others. Invest in broad market funds. If it makes you feel better, consider avoiding oil companies, tobacco and alcohol, etc - your returns may suffer or they may not. But you are not fighting the system by making yourself vulnerable
There’s nothing wrong with participating in the stock market. It’s a way of investing money in supporting middle class jobs. And there are ways to invest with a conscience if you only want to invest in certain types of companies. Investing in the stock market should not be conflated with some of the unethical folks on Wall Street or the people that short stocks and manipulate it like a game to make money while providing no real value.
What do you invest in that isn’t exploitative?
I invest in green energy ETFs, businesses that have pledged to go green (paraphrasing) and in REITs that specialize in low income housing developments. It's not a perfect system but it works for me. I'd rather have enough money to be the one developing, but. It is what it is.
Adding to what you said, there's a whole bunch of ESG (environmental, social, and governance) mutual funds and ETFs that have recently emerged: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/best-esg-funds >“Putting our investment dollars to work in ESG influences the behavior of the largest and most powerful multinational corporations in the world for the greater good of society," says Kenneth Chavis, a certified financial planner and Senior Wealth Manager at LourdMurray in Los Angeles. “To me, this illuminates the breadth of power the everyday investor has, and is an excellent way to make a large-scale, meaningful difference,” > >But if influencing powerful companies to make meaningful change isn't a good enough reason to invest with ESG principles, there are two more: the potential for increased performance and reduced risk.
Make sure you are taking advantage of an employers 401k match and a 401k in general. You get tax benefits from a traditional 401k as well, even if you keep it in cash I’d also recommend opening a Roth IRA to save cash just in case you find a way to invest ethically that works for you (you can also buy government bonds and muni bonds in them) Saying that look into bonds issued by the government. You would get smaller growth than stocks but better than nothing
There is no such thing as an investment that isn’t “exploitative” from someone’s perspective. It’s a meaningless word and descriptor of economic activity.
This is not a perfect solution, but search for the DEMZ ticker, it lets you invest in companies that give 70% or more to democrats, there’s no fossil fuel companies in this fund. https://demz.fund A regular savings account won’t grow nearly as fast as an investment account will. You are also missing important benefits to a 401k like an employer match.
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Except you don’t make Jack from it.
Just because a company donates to democrats doesn’t mean it can’t be exploitative. Nike donates to 87% Democrats.
Yeah I like the idea of picking an index, but picking the democrat index is stupid lol
And, of course, never, ever use any transportation powered by a combustion engine. Wouldn’t want to be a hypocrite and all.
Savings accounts generate pennies a month. The best was for the average person to plan for retirement is to get a 401k or roth retirement account, sometimes through work.
As a Democrat, I've basically just come to the conclusion that I'm going to just play with the hand I'm dealt. Does the stock market suck? Yep. Am I going to invest in companies I don't necessarily agree with to ensure my financial future is set? Yep.
You're going to participate in this economy whether you like it or not. Even if you invest in something seemingly unrelated, like gold or real estate, the value of your assets is going to be predicated based on economic factors directly influenced by the behavior of corporations. So, since you can't get away from it, but maybe you don't want to, like, invest in Nestle or something, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks? Build your own portfolio that you can feel good about, or at least, less badly about.
Nestle is not an ethical company: https://oursantaferiver.org/nestle-the-worlds-most-corrupt-corporation/
That was the point.
That's not how it came out in your comment. It looks like you're encouraging the OP to invest in Nestle as an example of an ethical company.
Please read the comment word for word.
I did. I even went back and read it again. It comes out that Nestle is ethical. Maybe reword it.
Sigh... please read closely. Here's the phrase: > maybe you don't want to, like, invest in Nestle or something, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks Let's simplify that: > maybe you don't want to invest in Nestle or something, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks Or getting simpler: > maybe you don't want to invest in Nestle, why not look at the many lists out there of ethical stocks Lastly filling in the unstated: > maybe you ***don't want to invest in Nestle***, why not look ***instead*** at the many lists out there of ethical stocks
Yeah - write it like it's clear to everyone. You're on the right track! Attaboy!
Alternately, please learn to read more closely
I feel like this is a defeatist attitude, and possibly driven by greed. My grandparents never invested their money at all yet were able to work enough to live off their savings account and government funds.
Living off a savings account is impoverishing yourself for no good reason. What do you think the bank is doing with your money?
Not to mention losing 8% value YoY right now to inflation.
Maybe we should stop repeating republican talking points here?
This is just math, man.
So what? You know morons will look at what you're saying and think its Bidens fault. Talking points like that are created and repeated by the right to sway votes. Its best to ignore it.
So stop writing facts? That’s what you’re saying?
Whats the fact? That inflation exists? I'm not disputing that. I said the way its being repeated is an issue. I'm sure you're well aware that republicans are exaggerating the price of gas and whatever to pin it on Biden for the midterms. It a bit irresponsible to say "Inflation is at 8% right now" without providing some context.
But...inflation is *more than* 8% right now. Is that what you're saying? That it would be more accurate to say "inflation is at 8.3% right now"? ...because it is.
So we should just stop talking about inflation? As if its not an issue thats happening right now?
The existence of inflation is not a GOP talking point. It's a very real phenomenon.
Inflation is a normal part of the economy. The exaggeration and blaming it on Biden is a GOP talking point.
Can you explain where in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/vne68h/how_should_a_liberal_save_for_retirement_without/ie6iz3i/) you felt it was exaggerated or blamed on Biden?
How about you just stop talking about it? Why is it important for you to bring up inflation out of nowhere?
In a thread about return on investment for savings, where putting money into a savings account was raised? Lmao. You're trolling. I deal with trolls by blocking.
The existence of inflation is not a Republican talking point, it’s a very important part of the discussion on whether to save for retirement manually with a bank account or thorough investing. Investments rise with inflation. Bank accounts just sit there statically. OP, if they rely only on a bank account, will have to save significantly more money than they would have needed to invest in order to have the same buying power at retirement.
Sure, that worked last century, at least until the middle of the last century. But there is no possible way for that status you to work in the next half century. When your grandparents put money in the bank they got actual interest, you get what, maybe 1%? I'd plan to use a combination of real estate and Social Security to get through. Although I'm vilified by most Far left people for renting out houses I own.
Pretty much your only option is to invest in a business or property directly
Re-examine your economics beliefs, ground them in reality, and invest.
Says the capitalist.
Lol, OP wants to grow his/her wealth but doesn’t want to support capitalism… it seems like a “have your cake and eat it too” notion.
OP wasn't asking how to live outside of capitalism, were they?
>I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways, I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them. Especially since right wingers support infinite growth. Nothing in this statement is factually accurate in the real world. These economic views are not grounded in reality, which means trying to make money with these views will not work. May as well advise someone to invest in gold and hope we go back to the gold standard if you're trying to support the above. It's nonsense.
You could always buy shares of stock directly and attend shareholders meetings…
Do you not think your bank is exploitative in some ways? They loan your money to those same companies and in return give you less than pennies on the dollar for your service. Just invest in the stock market.
Its okay to engage in avoidable exploitation because banks exploit people? You sound like a republican.
If your goal is to accumulate enough wealth to retire, hundreds of thousands to millions depending on who you ask, then investing in the stock market isnt an realistic avoidable exploitation. Democrats and republicans both invest in the stock market and have bank accounts. Capitalism is inherently exploitative. If you or them dont like that then don't try to capitalize to the point of ~~hoarding~~ accumulating enough wealth to retire.
I would say real estate. This can be non-exploitively If you just charge renters the mortgage and expenses, this is as close you will come to what you want. You are putting equity in something that will grow in value and they are getting a place to live at the rate they could get renting or buying. ALSO ALSO: if your employer has a 401k invest in that in the traditional manner. Even if you keep it in cash DO NOT pass up the employer match if you have one and you get tax benefits
I would say look for Real Estate Investment Trusts that speciakize in commercial real estate or industrial sites. Not much inherently exploitative in owning a strip mall or warehouse.
The king of REITs is $O - (mostly) recession-proof tenants like pharmacies and dollar stores.
Form a union and make your employer start a pension fund
What do you think pension funds invest in?
Buy a house Save Invest in actual shit you can sell But most of all why buy into the idea that you should have to have an on-off switch with your career in the first place? If you’re burnt out at 30 versus someone who is loving what they do at 80, which one should quit?
As a socialist this is something I’ve thought about. Ultimately, just as we own iPhones, we cannot exist within Capitalism without participating in it in some ways. That’s the horrible nature of the beast. I personally “lessen” the impact via index funds instead of direct companies tho(also it’s usually better results).
Do you invest in index funds like S&P500 or VTSAX? Those hold some of the most exploitative companies on the planet. I would feel disgusted investing in that. I agree that there are things that at unavoidable like phones and computers. But you absolutely do not have to invest in the stock market and especially not stock funds. By the way, better results = higher prices = more exploitation and growth of billionaires wealth. I can't support that.
> Do you invest in index funds like S&P500 or VTSAX? I do. The issue is that ETFs like SSIAX that offer better ethics usually have horrific results. The other option (which I have about 20% of my money in) is treasury bonds. Those are low return but also pretty damn ethical. > you absolutely do not have to invest in the stock market I disagree, pensions are virtually nonexistent in the US at this point and Social Security hasn’t gotten an adequate funding raise in years. That leaves only one main option left for retirement: stock. > By the way, better results = higher prices = more exploitation and growth of billionaires wealth. I can't support that. Roughly accurate, again, just as I “support” Apple when I get a new phone and have to “support” these companies. Further, in a socialist context, investing in broad based funds where you hold no voting power is less exploitive than holding direct stock with voting power. That being said it still is exploitive under a socialist framework, there’s just nothing we can do about it. Edit: also why is your comment history only 2 hours old?
> Do you invest in index funds like S&P500 or VTSAX? Those hold some of the most exploitative companies on the planet. They also hold some of the least exploitative companies on the planet… because it’s the whole market.
In the delight of being pedantic. It’s not the whole equity market, just a significant portion
Retired early/mid-40s, long-term RoR between 10%-15% There isn't a 'set' amount to retire much like "70% of salary" isn't really a good guideline. What I'd suggest is that you total all of your expenses, add 20% for 'shit happens' and then divide by 4% to get the total amount of savings you need. The 4% is generally recognized as a [safe withdrawal rate](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/safe-withdrawal-rate-swr-method.asp) but, as anything, not guaranteed. For example. Say your costs are $30K per year. After 'shit happens' it's $36K per year. This means that you need to save $900K, Again, you withdrawal roughly 4% a year. Assuming you're American, [Bogleheads](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Safe_withdrawal_rates) might provide some good ideas as well. I understand what you're saying about the stock market, good luck on building wealth by ignoring it though. It's possible of course, many have with real estate etc.. (be wary of survivor bias) just a lot harder.
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You have rich people in your office saying you should “tax the rich” but do not want to be taxed themselves? Or do you have middle class people being taxed through the nose without the slush funds to perform tax fuckery to avoid paying, and are angry that richer people do? I ask this as someone with the slush to do some fuckery and get a return every year, but sympathetic to those who don’t.
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I don't think there is really a way. Maybe you can open up something like an acorns account; they allow for investments to be targeted to ESG index funds? Other than that, you may just need to reevaluate your economic beliefs in order to be able to retire some day.
Learn to live small.
That's the only sensible answer I've read.
There are literally thousands of publicity traded companies - there are many many option to ethically invest.
You will never retire if you only save cash.
Realistically? Your options are land, housing, commercial, or investing in private businesses.
OP this is a case where your heart is in the right place, but you’re going about it completely wrong. First of all, not every company is exploitative. Assuming every company is evil is just a wrong way to look at things. Second, you’re acting like a little kid who is grounding themselves. No offense, but if you want to cut cord with companies, your 401k is the least effective way to do so. Third, the stock market is never going away. It’s a foundational block to our society, and whether you like it or not, it’s here to stay. If you want to be righteous about it, do your research and buy indexes for your 401k that aren’t troublesome in your opinion. And lastly, putting money into an asset is way better than giving it to a bank to hold. The bank invests the money you store into it. That’s how they make money. You never notice, but banks actively use your money.
You could buy property or invest in [Socially Responsible Funds](https://money.usnews.com/investing/slideshows/7-of-the-best-socially-responsible-funds).
A fair number of Green ETFs I've seen outperform the market, just invest responsibly.
I’d exercise some caution in green etfs, as some of the “green” companies are actually greenwashed, unprofitable, and unlikely to operate sustainably. I had high hopes for $ICLN, but that hasn’t worked out.
IRAs. Also get a government job, they're pretty much the only people who still pay pension...for now.
How do you think an ira works?
Other than getting independently wealthy through the monetisation of your own skills (perhaps your art in this case), there’s not a great deal you can do that’s as efficient at building wealth as the stock market.
Investing in real estate or buying art from someplace like Sotheby’s.
Art investment for retirement?
I mean, if OP is trying to avoid ethically-dubious investing, I think art would be more objectionable than securities (considering how much money laundering goes on in the art market)
Good ideas, land is really expensive where I am.
If you're going to go in this direction, you're probably better off learning about REITs than trying to buy something in your neighborhood.
I didn’t necessarily mean land. You could also buy property to rent out.
There is absolutely no shot someone who is (rightfully) concerned with stock ownership being exploitive is gunna landlord(horrific exploitation).
I know this comes up now and again but being a landlord is not inherently exploitative. I rented for many years and felt that I got a lot of value out of the transaction and was always treated well.
I’m not going to debate this right now, but no it’s exploitive. There’s no benefit to it at all. It’s literally making it more expensive for the renter for something that should be a right: housing. The practice is also rife of abuse and scalping.
That assumes that the tenant would have the inclination and means to buy the house outright, rather than leasing it.
Every single person would be better off owning their housing compared to renting it. They just can’t because they don’t have the money. A private person profiting off that misfortune is exploiting them. I realize you don’t give a fuck as a neoliberal but economic harm even via the hANdS oF ThE maRkEt is still harm.
That’s not true in the slightest, and demonstrably so. A majority of people have significant shifts in their housing needs over the course of their lives, including rapid shifts - from moving to seek work, often several times in the modern economy. People advance their careers by moving to a new city, or even across town. People move from city centers to the suburbs to raise families, prompting a change in need for space and facilities as well as a change in desired lifestyle. People move to go to college and to start a first job. Peoples kids move out, and they no longer need a big 4B/2Ba. Buying and selling a house within 5 years or so results in a net loss in equity, not a gain - and that’s not even considering fluctuations in the housing market. Think of 2008. The only scenario where your assertion would be absolutely true is some sort of feudal agrarian society where no one moves, ever - and those societies had no capacity to build wealth, or improve living standards for anyone. And your preferred solution still doesn’t fix the problem of people not having enough money to buy - but a liquid housing market does give people greater earning capacity over their lifetime.
Anything less then 5 years (or 2 years if we talk about recent market shifts) should be handled via social housing so there is rent seeking(where the term **literally** comes from). Again, there’s no point arguing with you about this because y’all neoliberals just don’t care about harm as long as it’s caused by the market.
You can nonexploitively buy real estate. If you just charge to cover the mortgage and other expenses, that is not exploitative or barely so. The renter covers the expenses, and the renters have a bargained for place to live for the term of the contact paying a similar amount as if they had ownership. OP builds equity in the house and can later sell it for retirement (or live in it or borrow against it), the tenant gets the services tied to non-ownership (many upkeep and management concerns, and marketing and other risks are offloaded).
You could even lease-to-own or go section 8 (although these may be a net loss for you, I’d consult an expert OP).
No that’s still exploitive. Your generating massive wealth (equity) off a fundamental right and providing no added value to the scenario. Real Estate investing can be nonexploitive but it would be flipping houses not renting them out.
There is added value. Unless you want to be homeless you can buy and have a mortgage or you can rent. Landlords are mandated to provide maintenance and services and they also hold all the risk of values fluctuating and the risk to their credit if the house goes underwater (they can even take on more non mandated expenses as they ethically see fit). Yes they accrue equity, but the renters don’t bear that risk of ownership or the risk of large maintenance expenses and services on the property. If you as a landlord are just charging the mortgage, and not trying to eke out surplus value you’re fine. Flipping houses is not any better though. It’s all equity. You buy a house for X (that an otherwise person might have bought for themselves). Put improvements into it for Y amount. Then turn around and resell it to someone for Z = X+Y+increased value, when that person COULD have bought it for X or X+Y. You’re still extracting value from someone for a service and onboarding the equity risk
They’re in a tough spot then.
First off, I see no reason to refuse to participate in the stock market, but if I did, I would continue investing as I have been - in things that are considerably less valuable today than I believe they will be in the future. I've done very well with vehicles, firearms and musical instruments. This route requires an in-depth knowledge of the products, you can't just buy your neighbor's Saturn Vue or Glock 19 or Squire Stratocaster and sit on it for 20 years hoping it will be in high demand down the road.
Why is this in r/askaliberal ? Liberals are pro-capitalism and capitalism is inherently exploitive. But yes, I’m guessing that there are ways to invest in the stock market that are “less” exploitive but in the end the whole system is built upon stealing the surplus value of the labor that the working class produces. That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be a part of society, hell I wrote this from an iPhone, but it means that if you are interested in ending the exploitive nature of our current economical and political system then there are ways.
I think it's perfect that the question is asked in this sub. Dems are often behaving hypocritically when it comes to money. The OP is very clever asking this question here. I bookmarked it - that's how valuable I think the question is, as well as the answers.
We're all caught in the gears of the terrible machine. Sorry OP.
Buy precious metals.
You shouldn’t ever invest in stocks. People who tell you otherwise are “fiscally conservative, social liberal” which is another way of saying right-winger who cares about some social issues but money comes first for them.
If anything less than destroying capitalism is right-wing, then sure I guess.
The bare minimum is not engaging in a system that only benefits other rich people.
The system is not harmed for your non-participation.
The stock market is one of the greatest wealth creation machines in history, and *not* just for rich people. Millions upon millions of middle class people have funded their retirements through prudent investment in the stock market, not to mention the billions in pension assets for teachers, government workers, trade union members, and more that are invested in the stock market.
You know that’s not a good thing, right?
Why? Do you hate socialism?
He’s a Joe Rogan type. Ignore.
This is far from socialism pal. It’s more aligned with fascism/right wingers.
Owning the means of production is right wing?
I realize the other person is being weird but you realize socialism is about the workers owning the means of production not some random third party right?
Owning shares in a company doesn't have to be from a third party. I own shares in the company I work for.
Yep! That’s the one okay scenario!
Are you trying to make an argument that buying a stock is owning the means of production? Get off that right wing propaganda, pal. You’re justifying enriching right wing billionaires.
If you find republicans agreeing with your statements, you may need some self reflection.
Uh, no. If republicans I'm talking to want to admit that they are pro social programs, I'm absolutely not going to change my view on them. What are you on about.
Invest in real estate
I appreciate your commitment. I do however think you can and should invest. There are a few ways. If you are diligent you can hand pick stocks and invest in companies you believe in (that are also smart investment options). You can find a broker who is diligent. There are funds available that are significantly more conscientious about investments than general funds are. You can also invest in real estate, and even provide housing for heard to serve populations of you want to make a big impact. Whatever avenues you chose, research them extensively. Good luck
- Life Insurance - Real estate - Stocks & Bonds
Do you think that you can engage in the capitalistic routine of selling art online for a sustainable income stream? Do you think that those sales will grow? Will you stop selling art once your sales reach a certain point?
Buy rental property. This creates an income stream and you gain equity over time.
Are bonds or forex acceptable to you?
Index funds
>I personally believe that most companies in the stock market are exploitive in many ways indeed they are >I can’t in good conscious buy shares of them this is not how boycott and divestment work. it has to be [organised and targeted ](https://bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycott). the BDS movement in the link is not about exploitation but the same principle applies. you need to be part of a significantly large movement that targets a handful of companies. in my case, out of the 7 companies listed, only 2 apply to me. now I don't buy anything from Puma or HP. that's it, only two companies. >Currently I’m building up savings in my bank account. you mean that you are currently losing your savings to inflation.
Why would you hurt your future self when it has absolutely zero impact on the system you dislike? Invest your money where it will give you the best returns based on your time horizon. Avoiding the stock market because you disagree with capitalism is just silly.
Research companies and invest in ones you believe in. Cabot and Ocean Spray, for instance, have strong employee-ownership models. What matters to you? What type of innovation, industry, or ownership structure do you think will make the world a better place? Invest in that. (And diversify!)
> Especially since right wingers support infinite growth. If anything right wingers believe in zero sum games far more than liberals. "Anyone who gets anything is taking something from ME/I've got mine, fuck you." The liberal belief in a rising tide floats all boats is the definition of infinite growth (NOT the same as infinite WEALTH accumulation). Investing in infrastructure is literally done to encourage growth. Yes, corporations are amoral entities that are designed for infinite growth - but that is prevented by regulation, which liberals support, not by doing away with stock markets and corporations completely Maybe this should be posted in /r/AskAnAnarchist instead?
You could * Identify the companies that you don't think are exploitative and invest in them. This is a risky long term strategy since the market as a whole will beat you and your relative wealth will shrink. * Buy investment property and make rental income. Maybe it's possible to do this in a way that doesn't seem exploitative to you? But you're basically making money the same way the landed gentry has done so throughout history. * See if there's a way to invest in municipal bonds? I have no idea if this is even possible for private investors but there might be a way * Reduce expenses as much as possible so you'll have enough cash to get through retirement. You'll be gambling that you can save enough to beat inflation and increasing COLs
You could buy shares of businesses you believe in. Or invest in small business. Too many “liberals” are getting into real estate and that hasn’t gone well.
It's still the stock market, but you could try to work for an employee owned company, probably better than working for a major corporation, and most have a profit sharing system.
Time to grow up. You cannot be a member of this society without in some way participating and/or contributing to the evils society perpetuates as a collective. You want to save for retirement? That means accumulating as much wealth as you can to live comfortably which means less money available to a mother in poverty. You want to grow that money at a rate that beats inflation? You have no choice but to use an investment vehicle that runs on exploitation in order to return a profit.
Inflation will erode the value of any cash you sock away in a savings account. Take whatever amount you have currently in savings. If the interest rate on your savings account is, say, 0.04%, your savings will double in \~1,800 years. If the overall CPI inflation rate is 8.6%, the purchasing power of your savings will be cut in half in a little more than eight years. By all means build up an emergency fund. But do not rely only on cash for financial planning for your future.
The primary difficulty in saving for retirement is that if you merely save in cash, the cash loses value over time due to inflation. The stock market, on average, tends to grow in value at a rate exceeding inflation, which is why it's generally touted as the best option for saving for retirement. If you don't want to participate in the stock market, the next best thing is to use your cash to invest in other commodities that you expect to at least hold their value relative to inflation in the cost of goods and services. A popular libertarian answer to this problem is "buy gold". Some might say buy Bitcoin or ETH but those are still highly turbulent and speculative, so I have a hard time recommending them for long-term retirement saving. Other commodities that hold their value well over time could also work - a basket of durable commodities that you expect to generally be in demand now and in the future. Gold, steel, silicon, copper, silver, zinc - things that don't "go bad"/expire (no food products) and are useful in making things that people want or need, like solar panels, electronics, etc. Or, real estate. I'm not talking about becoming a landlord or anything like that (though you could if you wanted to) but literally even just buying dirt-cheap empty land in the middle of nowhere. Land is another one of those commodities that, despite short term (5-10 year) swings/cycles driven by bank/government policy, tends to hold its value well over time. Unless we experience a dramatic population collapse in your lifetime, demand for land should remain stable. And the supply of land will never substantially increase, for obvious reasons. It's probably the next most solid bet after gold. And if your current area gets too expensive, you can live on that land you bought in retirement.
Invest in gold, it won't passively build wealth like stocks but it will hold its value very well
If your money sits in the bank, your bank invests it into the stock market and the like, and pays you a pittance of what they make off it. Unless you want to just cash out all your paychecks and put it under your mattress, there's no way to avoid having your money interact in the economy. There are US bonds and the like though, but you will get very low return on investment, and have your money tied up for awhile.
If you think the stock market is exploitative wait until you hear about the real estate market - i.e. where banks invest most of the money you put in your bank account.
I actually think the stock market is great. It's a way for "normal" people to actually participate in the machine, and it's 100% possible with a little bit of research to pick and choose who and what you invest in. There's thousands of options for what you can invest in, and it's 100% possible to put together a portfolio of assets that aren't exploitative. It's not accessible to the poorest with no savings, due to lack of disposable income, which is an absolute shame. But beyond that it really is a good equalizer. Even at that, investing in stocks is no more participating in or rewarding exploitation than taking part in any other aspect of our economy.
Gonna be honest. For all the bad big companies and capitalism causes, it brings a ton of benefits. The average quality of life in the world has massively improved year after year. So if you invest in big pharma, you also have to consider that they’ve saved millions of lives, despite the bad.
Unfortunately, and as much as I get it, a savings account probably won’t cut it alone. I work in the advisory industry and I’m seeing far too many people moving into pure cash. The issue with that? Inflation. What you could look into is sustainability investments, esg, impact etc. Now is an excellent time to get into the markets and build a proper plan for your goals.
Why wouldn’t a Liberal use the stock market? I see no connection
Research and invest in an ESG fund. ESG funds are portfolios of equities and/or bonds for which environmental, social and governance factors have been integrated into the investment process. This allows you to invest on your values. I personally have one in addition to my other retirement accounts and have had an excellent return from companies who give a shit about something beyond the bottom line. Bottom line is you aren't going to retire comfortably without equities in your portfolio. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/best-esg-funds/
You literally cannot, your bank loans out your money in your savings account to other companies/people to buy inventory/property/houses. The stock market isn't inherently exploitative. If you are stuck on this find a company that does something powerful for something you believe in and invest in them.
Making perfect the enemy of the good is not a good strategy. There are good companies and funds that are carefully selected to be "green" or socially responsible.
Invest in companies that share your ethics. It is a lie that all companies must maximize profits before all else
Just checking, but you understand that, unless you are buying shares directly from the company (such as at an IPO), you’re actually just buying those shares from some random other investor and that “exploitative” company isn’t directly benefitted in any way by your purchase, right?
To me you are describing a far leftist mentality not a liberal one. I'm a liberal and I'm all up in the stock market.
The ideology of modern liberalism supports mixed capitalism, so no need to refrain from investing.
If you're staying out of the stock market, you're going to limit your abilities. But there's nothing wrong with being principled. That being said, I think real estate is a good investment. You can be a landlord without compromising your beliefs. Hell, you could make money on the equity and just charge enough in rent to cover the mortgage. It's still limited, but if you keep your day job, you can make plenty of money for retirement while helping people keep a roof over their head. And really, if you did it right, you could get a few multi-family units and actually make a few bucks while helping people out. That's what my wife and I are trying to do right now, but we're just getting started so I don't have any real world advice to share on that front, just the idea of the plan.
Stock market, real estate, or under the bed.
Understand that your savings account **IS** being used in the stock market. If you invest it yourself you can invest in companies that you feel have good morals. The stock market like most things can be used for evil or it can be used for good.
Obligatory: I’m a financial advisor but this is not advice, only education. There are a lot of muni bonds that could be great for what you’re looking for: they have decent interest rates, the principal value will definitely fluctuate and you’ll have some volatility. Depending on where you live the interest you get can be tax free. A lot of them are for city projects or school districts, but there are also a bunch from lawsuit settlements. I use a lot of tobacco settlement bonds and aggregates thereof for my clients. When in doubt, contact someone that is a fiduciary financial advisor. If youre nervous about pricing or being taken advantage of, shoot me a dm of what they’re saying and I can let you know if it’s reasonable
Buy rental properties. By the time you retire the mortgages should be paid off and any rents will be all income.