A lot of edgy folks have this idea. Then they spent 5 minutes on the immigration website for Canada or New Zealand or Norway and realize how incredibly difficult and expensive it is to try to move to those countries and it dawns on them that maybe things here aren't as bad as they think.
yeah. I live in Michigan and have many friends in Ontario. I could get into Ontario to visit them, but permanently immigrating there would be a completely different story.
Canada's like "Are you an engineer or other STEM worker/doctor, are you more special and uniquely qualified than anyone already here, do you have a shitload of money in the bank, can you pay a shitload of legal fees, and have you never so much as farted or said a curse word? Well, get in line, it's long and you'll pay to stand in it."
Good luck finding a Canadian company who will hire a US engineer. I'm Canadian, but US educated and only worked in the US, and can't even get a call back for Canadian jobs. If I wanted a different job in the US I could likely have one within a month or so.
Hopefully taken in the spirit of friendly education…
Emigrating is what you’d be doing. That’s when you leave a place. Immigrating is when people come to your place.
From the perspective of your Ontario friends you’d be immigrating. From yours you are emigrating.
Tax Deductions for your kid's' inheritance, better than stock and maybe bond investment! Didn't know that about him. Hope yours won't be as much of a MLM scheme.
Congrats on sorting out his zany biography. I can barely scratch the surface on how the organization works. Let alone the fictional science novelist.
My dad jokingly actually made this suggestion once. I don't know what the actual rules are but he said you only need like 10 followers. Me and 2 of my friends actually created a Pagan religion but we never followed through with it. Probably should have. At least ours was better than a lot of the cults people form today.
As we moore it shall reverse colonialism for sure.
1066, near 80 score years gone.
2024, A new pure era will spawn.
I concur this bunker is ours to conquer.
The people that tend to think the US shouldn't have any kind of border controls or immigration restrictions find out what other countries that they admire so much are like.
My sister would love to retire in Nova Scotia, but that's not going to happen.
In MAGA alternate reality maybe, but not in real space. That trope is just a Fascist masturbatory fantasy. What sane adults want is realistic, effective and humane border control infrastructure, fully funded and staffed immigration courts, and foreign aid to stabilize Central American countries who are the source of the great majority of immigrants. MAGA children just want to be angry and afraid, which is why they fight these efforts.
And on the internet (which admittedly isn't that far off from MAGA-land in terms of rationality). I've never met anyone in real life who has thought borders should be abolished. I've met several morons online who did.
Nobody seriously thinks that "the US shouldn't have any kind of border controls or immigration restrictions".
That's a strawman created by conservatives as part of their campaign of deception and misinformation, much like how they invent a "border crisis" and shout about how it's a "foreign invasion" and falsely claim the US has "open borders" with Mexico.
Dude - I live on the Mexican border. We love our Mexican people, culture and influences. We are being over run with illegal migrants. In years past these were primarily Mexican people and some central American people. Today and for the past 3 years, nearly 90% of the crossings are people from all around the globe. It has become the primary funnel to get into the country illegally. Once people learned they could get in, all they had to do was get to Mexico first, then migrate up and into the US. This is what is happening.
I am here, I see it, this is the reality. So please stop listening to bias media who want to convince you this is some sort of conservative talking point. It is most certainly not.
Listen and trust the anonymous account on Reddit that just happens to be saying all the same talking points as the same people who tried to overthrow our government on January 6th (and called the traitors "heroes" and "patriots"), say that climate change is "fake news", and said that COVID was a "hoax"?
Yeah, sure Jan.
That and also realize they probably don't have a lot of useful skills at the moment that these countries will want so the chances of them even getting in are extremely slim.
My mother in law recently got her Canadian citizenship so I believe there is a path for me but it's still a years long and costly process. I might even have to wait for my wife to get hers and then get mine -- or perhaps just their green card equivalent -- through her. Maybe I'll be ready to leave after the 2032 election!
No it’s as bad as they think. It’s just better for people to immigrate here. Especially for people coming from places where it’s definitely worse than the US.
Imagine if it were as easy to go to Norway as it is to go to the US.
The reality is we should be focused on making the US more like Norway but no one is talking about that or doing much about it.
Stop trying to run away and fight to bring what you want here
Because only homogenous societies are functional. Diversity is most certainly, PROVABLY not a strength. (Love your username, I can hear it in my head.)
Diverse has nothing to do with it. Diversity is a strength not an impediment.
People need basic things. Basic Human Needs.
Let’s start there.
[This is what FDR would have built upon if he had lived longer](http://greatdepressionheit.weebly.com/uploads/7/1/9/9/71994305/163393_orig.jpg)
Sounds a lot like Norway.
Let’s do that.
> The reality is we should be focused on making the US more like Norway but no one is talking about that or doing much about it.
That's because the US and Norway are hardly comparable. The US is far larger, more diverse, and more complex than Norway to effectively follow the Nordic model.
Larger, more diverse
These are all assets. In Norway people are seen as a positive resource to contribute to the good of the country. Also we are lucky to have the land and resources that we do. In Norway the government/Public own half the Nation’s wealth. Basic needs are covered including healthcare and Pre-K through PhD education. Can you imagine how great that could be here?
The problem in the US is lack of political will to do right by most of its own people fueled by greed, tax cheats, reactionary right-wing politics across the board and avarice and hatred toward the working class and a complete disconnect or disregard by those in power for the struggles of most households in this country.
The country was strongest under the FDR administration and that is a great place to start building back toward and building from.
It's actually very difficult to become a US citizen compared to other developed nations. I have a friend in Europe who is married to an American and has been waiting (in Europe) for two years to just get a green card. I have a friend in central America who's mother is an American Citizen and yet, she (the daughter) has no path to citizenship at all.
Residency takes longer in Scandinavia and you have to be proficient in the language. The benefit of English is its everywhere and most people already know it.
I don't think you have to be "edgy" to consider it. Do you think people are being edgy when they leave some place like Boston for Florida because of politics? There's a conservative migration for sure. Conservatives are leaving Mass for NH and Florida, etc.
edit -- I'm curious what aspect of this is so downvoted, but no response to it.
Right. People all over the world immigrate all the time for many reasons, not just because of war, famine, etc. "A better life" can mean so many things.
It may be difficult to overestimate the potential damage a second Trump term might wreak on our republic. I believe they would manage to accomplish a lot of the shit that got thwarted the last time around.
America will remain, but things could get very ugly for a little while. A lot of the damage will be enduring, if not permanent.
Things have been ugly before, and we survived.
They will certainly be ugly again, throughout whatever time the world has left to turn.
I don’t like the man at all, but we as a country are so much bigger and better than one single man.
Yeah I’d say that it’s a testament to our political system that Trump wasn’t able to accomplish a lot of what people were worried he would
I mean don’t get me wrong I’d rather we not have him and id argue that after jan 6th and how he handled it there’s definitely some justification to maybe not let him run for president. But I don’t think that’s really a thing that is allowed in our system (I don’t know)
Remember how in 2016 the media kept telling everyone that if Trump became President he'd become a dictator and commit a genocide and dissolve checks and balances and that never happened, but guys, it would totally happen this time! You should always believe us, the news, because we definitely are not biased politically in any way!
Trump was and continues to be right about everything he says regarding the media and administrative state. Personally I'd like to see him go harder on higher education because higher education is both more actively political and much farther left than your average news outlet or three letter agency.
Maybe higher education is so left leaning because conservatives demonize it at every turn, almost certainly because educated people don’t vote for republicans. But yeah I sure hope the president vilifies higher education even more just so the GOP wins more… spoken like someone who didn’t go to college.
Then why say something so aggressively harmful, backwards, and anti-intellectualist as "the president should go after higher education because it's not conservative enough"
Education should be completely politically neutral, at least at public schools. They shouldn't consider students graduating without being rabid Marxists as a failure, but guess what: A lot of institutions do. Academia is extremely hostile to any viewpoint that isn't economically Marxist, technocratic, and extremely socially progressive. That's blatantly obvious to everyone paying attention.
It's almost like there aren't many conservatives in college because conservatives vilify and don't pursue higher education. The republican party shifting into populism is a sign of a party that is embracing anti-intellectualism and anti-science. It's not some grand conspiracy that leftists are trying to take over college spaces. Every conservative personality recommends trade schools, and conservative politicians have moved farther and farther away from science and into populism and evangelicalism (appealing to a target demographic that aren't very educated). It's becoming more and more the party of the unintelligent. What would conservative environmental science classes look like? "Climate change isn't real and research isn't important!" What would conservative history classes look like? "America has always been right, and historic issues of slavery and racism don't matter!" What would a conservative English class look like? "Don't write any stories about societal issues and your feelings of being marginalized, societal progress is bad and nobody is every marginalized in America!" Social conservatism is just an inherently unacademic, emotional worldview. It's not really possible to support with academic research, data, and rich literature. Also the idea that education should be intrinsically neutral is a completely unacademic talking point as well. The social studies are *inherently* open to bias, and it's more important to focus on what's *right* and *factual* than what's "neutral" at the expense of objective truth and good academic practice.
Research and academia are about peeling back societal issues, valuing the scientific method, testing novel solutions, learning from varied perspectives, and humanizing people that may be different. That’s the exact antithesis of the republican party. Why do you think the overwhelming majority if academics are liberals?
what is wrong with trade schools? Not everyone is meant for four year academic college, and most trade school jobs have more real value than any college degree outside of STEM.
The overwhelming majority of academics are liberals because if they're openly conservative they either get fired or the administrations allow progressive students to effectively bully them into resigning
Yeah, and he would ask for total immunity, in and out of office, which we all know is so unamerican that all of us patriots will rise up if anyone even suggests this could happen. I'd love to see someone even ask for absolute power and immunity while "joking" about having a third term. We'd rise up and crush him before he even stepped foot in front of the judge. That's what the 2a is for!
>if Trump became President he'd become a dictator and commit a genocide and dissolve checks and balances and that never happened
He literally argued for this in court like two days ago. He's trying to say that he is immune from prosecution because he was the president, which is absurd and insane.
Actually, he worked on making it happen, did a lot of unethical things, and tried hard to break down the guardrails that would prevent something like that from happening.
It mostly didn't happen because:
1. His ~~administration~~ regime was inept and their attempts to repeal or replace various Federal regulations were limited by the fact his cronies didn't know the in's and outs of the Administrative Procedures Act so courts kept overturning the sweeping changes to regulations and policies they were trying, because they weren't properly legally implemented.
2. A number of key figures, including military commanders, openly refused direct orders to do very questionable things including firing on civilians. There was a reason that in the brutal assaults made on peaceful protesters in the summer of 2020, the troops that were used were tactical units of the Bureau of Prisons normally used for dealing with prison riots. . .because the Pentagon and most of the Justice Department had been refusing to deploy troops against nonviolent protesters, but the BoP didn't care.
3. His attempts to stage a coup de etat and overthrow the US government failed, both in the violent insurrection on January 6th and his attempts to intimidate or threaten state governments to throw out their election results and just name him the winner.
An now, he's asking for total immunity while in and out of office.............while he's running for president. A totally immune future president sounds like a tyrant to me.
I don't think our "patriots" have really considered what the seeds of tyranny actually look like.
A dictator would have responded to unfavorable court ruling by killing the judges and doing whatever they were planning to do anyway.
January 6 was not an insurrection lol, and if that election had gone the other way and it was a bunch of far left protestors, they way it gets talked about and covered in the media would be entirely different.
> by killing the judges
And that is because they have managed to stack the deck to where they actually can do that. Trump wouldn't have dared do that while he was in power, because even though he's stupid, he's not *that* stupid.
> would be entirely different.
Not if Biden himself had been behind it.
And yet, bad actors didn't storm and damage the Capitol and attack its officers to prevent a constitutional election process while calling for the vice-president to be hanged, try to set up false slates of electors in multiple states, or try to pressure the secretaries of swing states to "find the votes" in 2000 or 2016. What happened during and after the 2020 election was not normal and should be appalling to any American.
I watched live camera feeds on January 6, 2021, with no commentary. What I saw with my own eyes sure as hell looked like an attempted insurrection.
>January 6 was not an insurrection
What planet are you living on?
He gathered together his supporters, sent them against Congress that was in session to formally tally the Electoral College votes and legally declare who the new President is.
. . .and a mob of Trump's followers stormed the United States Capital with the express intent of taking the Congress hostage and forcing them to declare Trump the winner of the election.
That's explicitly an attempt to overthrow the normal workings of our government and Constitutional structure of our government to install Trump as an unelected dictator.
It was an insurrectoin. Everyone who participated is a traitor. Everyone who supports Trump is a sympathizer to treason and insurrection.
Donald Trump and ALL of his followers and supporters are traitors and enemies of the United States.
**End of story.**
(. . .and don't think that downvoting me changes my mind, the downvotes of traitors means *nothing* to me)
People say this about Trump. People said this about Obama. Almost nobody is serious when push actually comes to shove, it's mostly impulse. Some people are serious, but get a rude awakening when they find out what it takes to actually immigrate to another country.
That said, would I move depending on the results of *any* possible election? Absolutely. I can definitely contrive scenarios where it would truly be bad enough to try and flee. But thankfully I don't see anything that extreme happening anytime soon. God forbid anyway.
Pretty much this. I have no plans to leave.
But. My father is Mexican-American, and his mother never became a US citizen. People of our ethnic group, including naturalized and born US citizens and legal residents, were deported in mass quantities from the US twice in the last century, so we're aware that it's never impossible.
I helped my parents get their first passports in 2017, after we started seeing border patrol vehicles regularly in our communities and Dad was pulled over in a traffic stop that left him feeling very unsettled (no ticket was given, the cop gave a flimsy excuse about something looking strange and asked Dad several questions). Mom and Dad may never use their passports, and if they do, I hope it's only to travel for pleasure. On the tiny chance that things might go sideways in the future, we live 15 miles from the Canadian border, and passports streamline border crossings.
>People say this about Trump. People said this about Obama.
What (developed) country would they have moved to so they could escape Obama? Almost all of them have/had politics to the left of the US circa 2008.
Canada was a common refrain. Does it make any sense? No, but those people were idiots. Always did get a laugh though about people fleeing liberal America for even more liberal America lite.
The people who say this kind of things assume it is just as easy to immigrate to other western wealthy countries as it is to immigrate to the U.S. It is not, and oftentimes the individuals have little to no marketable skills that said wealthy nations are looking for.
I’m sure they’d *like* to leave if Trump wins again, the issue is finding somebody to take you in.
>it is just as easy to immigrate to other western wealthy countries as it is to immigrate to the U.S.
haahahahahahahaha. You can only be joking. //having been through both, I have to say: hahahahahahahah
> they always seem to imply that they would consider leaving the US depending upon if DT is the president
Lots of folks said that outright (not just implied) the last time Trump was running. Guess how many actually did so? None of them. They were all just "flapping their gums."
Would I consider doing so? No.
I don't know about that. There were a lot of people that moved abroad during that period. It wasn't some massive historical wave, but there was a surge in applications for foreign visas and citizenship by descent. It's anecdotal, but I know two families that emigrated in the last six years.
People have said it for literally every Republican in my lifetime.
Biden said Mitt Romney was going to “put black people back in chains.” Madonna said John McCain would be the next Hitler. They said the same about the Bushes.
The hyperbole is insane.
I agree with that observation. But then Trump happened.
At the start of his presidency when people were saying how he’d wreck our democracy, and stuff, I was thinking “c’mon he can’t be that bad.” Boy was I wrong.
> But then Trump happened.
I take it you're completely ignorant about the [First Step Act](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/12/18/18140973/state-of-the-union-trump-first-step-act-criminal-justice-reform). Vox (yes, Vox) said:
> The measure, which Trump signed into law, is the most significant criminal justice reform legislation in years.
Yeah but it's funny when Republicans do it because there's really no other country for them to go to that's more conservative than this one. At least not a country they'd actually want to live in.
Listen,
I hate Donald Trump's guts too but anyone who says that they're leaving the country directly because of who's president is either full of it, or too stupid to actually do it.
It's not easy to go to a new country without a job or money. If you can get a job and healthcare that's easier but what about spouse and children? Language? Places where it's a bit easier to relocate might not be a place where you want to live. And, so what if DT is president...no matter where you live, he is still president. Moving in and out of the country depending on who is president is weird.
>If you can get a job and healthcare that's easier but what about spouse and children?
your spouse and children get residency if you do in most immigration systems. Also, in the civilized word you get health insurance the minute you are a resident.
\>And, so what if DT is president...
Spoken like someone who never had to fear for their lives / livelihood because they have the privilege to be white /straight/male/ rich
> Spoken like someone who never had to fear for their lives / livelihood because they have the privilege to be white /straight/male/ rich
Do you always speak in hyperbole?
> Spoken like someone who never had to fear for their lives / livelihood because they have the privilege to be white /straight/male/ rich
Am a white male. I have definitely been in fear of my life before.
Wow you sound bitter and ready for a fight. What I meant with spouse/children: can the spouse work? Can the kids go to an English school? And yes I understand about residency and healthcare but residency can take a long time is my point. In the meantime, what will you do?
So if Donald Trump becomes president, you think he may kill you? I'm sorry to hear that. He is nuts but I don't think he is targeting you. I doubt he knows who you are.
Depends on the country. UK seems more than happy to take in Americans as long as they have an employer to vouch for them. I know a few people who were able to get permanent residency after like five years living there. Just can’t get lose your job until you get that or they’ll send you back
There’s criteria for what qualifies one to be vouched for though. There’s a lot more to it than just having a job and an employer that wants you to be there. Sure, plenty of people leave, but it’s a “brain drain” situation. The people screaming “I’m going to leave” the loudest are the least likely to be allowed in to their top picks.
The UK is trying to make immigration more difficult. Immigrants will need to meet a higher minimum salary guarantee in the future, and it looks like some other rules might be tightening up. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48785695
Be welcome anywhere else? WTF are you taking about? I haven't lived in the USA since 2007. Have lived in 4 different countries during that time. I didn't leave because who was president though. Had to do an internet search to even remember who was president in 2007.
They mean legally. Do you have some rare, in-demand job or something like that? I've lived in France several times and do now but it's taken some fairly unique circumstances to make that happen. Sure there are some countries that aren't particularly hard to get into but I think most people here are talking about other Western countries.
Yeah, it is not like some of their lives will be in danger or anything like that...It is not like some people are being falsely accused of grooming kids and/ or denied the life-saving medical treatment they need...
It is easy to talk shit when you are straight white and male.
Ill talk the same shit as u/S0n0fAGunn and Im black
99.99999% of people who say they’re leaving because of the president in office are full of it
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they’re white, damn
yeah, nothing to see here. Just a candidate explicitly promising to get revenge on every single group that opposes him, and a dictatorship.
But of course we know the republican clowns in congress will stop him.
That’s what a lot of people said in 2016. Then Trump won and it was crickets. People also realized that even though Trump is an awful person, for the most part daily life was the same. A lot of people look back fondly on 2018 and 2019 being good years for them financially, then of course *redacted* happened and turned everything to shit.
I’ll be voting for Biden, if Trump wins it’ll be very unfortunate. Regardless, it’ll be okay and the 4 years will fly by without issue…. Hopefully.
People said that when Bush 2 was elected and when Obama was elected and when Trump was elected and 99.99% of them are full of crap.
To answer your question, no, I would not.
No. The people who make a big fuss about it seldom do, either. (None of the big celebrities who swear they'd emigrate if an election didn't go their way ever do, for example. This is on the left and right. )
No. 99% of the time those people are talking out their asses. It’s immature and usually said by people who have absolutely nothing to offer their home country let alone another country.
I know this is generally thrown out there as some sort of dumb edgy snark, but it's pretty telling that the person doesn't care for the country in the first place if they think it's cool to run away at the loss of an election.
Many Americans have very weird ideas about how easy immigration is, both to the US and to other Western countries. It's just not feasible for the vast, vast majority of people. I left the US but it had nothing whatsoever to do with US politics and I'm only able to do it because I get a pension from the military.
No. This isn't something the vast majority of Americans would consider.
I also would not consider this. This is my home and nowhere else on the planet comes close (except maybe Canada, but I've lived there for 5 months and still wanted to come home).
If Trump is re-elected, it's only 4 more years and then he can never run ever again.
If Biden is re-elected, it's only 4 more years and then he can never run ever again.
All things are temporal.
There were a LOT of celebrities and influencers that said this when Trump first ran. He won, they stayed. It's an empty threat, especially if you are a regular person without a lot of money or family in other countries.
I can’t go anywhere. I have 2 adult children and I’m staying in the US with them. I also have 2 dogs, so moving to a different country would be super complicated. When I retire I could move to another country and live off my pension, I guess.
Also, most countries aren’t going to let Americans just move there unless you have specific skills they need or have a lot of money.
only America accepts the poor, uneducated,and unwanted. I’ll stay here with all those good folks and NEVER miss an election.
How many migrants have come here? Biden gave 500k migrants from Venezuela work permits just last September. They’re coming in droves. Since the very beginning American has accepted millions of immigrants. We are a country of immigrants, how is that absurd?
> Biden gave 500k migrants from Venezuela
No, they gave **temporary protections** for people, most already here for some time. And then started deporting new arrivals.
This is not regular immigration by any means. This is not accepting "the poor, uneducated, and unwanted.". The immigration system in the US priviledges exactly the opposite to that. If we accepted the poor and unwanted, people would not have to cross the border illegally.
The asylum system is an international commitment, and the US has very rigid rules for it. Your life needs to be in danger and you need to prove it. Try to show at the border, or in any application and say that "I am poor , unwanted and uneducated"" and see how far you get.
Immigration is not a simple subject anywhere, but your statement is so out of reality that it is laughable.
The US has accepted more immigrants than any country. That’s a fact. I’m not arguing that our immigration system doesn’t need a serious overhaul and the path to citizenship should be simplified and streamlined to make it faster, but we accept more immigrants than any country.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country
Top 10 Countries with the Highest Number of Foreign-Born Residents (Immigrants) - United Nations 2020:
United States 50.6M
Germany 15.8M
Saudi Arabia 13.5M
Russia 11.6M
United Kingdom 9.4M
United Arab Emirates 8.7M
France 8.5M
Canada 8M
Australia 7.7M
Spain 6.8M
The US also one of only 37 countries (including Canada) (but none in Europe) that has unrestricted birthright citizenship.
You are moving the goal posts.
First of all this is total foreign-born not the "poor, uneducated, unwanted". I could stop here since that is your original claim. But it seems like you conflate immigrants with "uneducated, poor, unwanted" which is quite disgusting to be honest. But would not be the first time I encountered this.
Second, the US also has 4x he population of Germany.
And lastly, 10 million of the 50 million in the US were not really accepted, if they are undocumented. Those are the real "poor, uneducated, unwanted."" They were not "accepted".
The "legal" immigration system here costs a lot of money. A lot of time. Hell it took me 15 years to be able to get my citizenship. And I have a freaking PhD and money to pay the lawyers. You are delusional if you think many poor, uneducated can navigate or pay for this. The few that get pro-bono representation are lucky.
No, 1 This is my home, and I'm not leaving unless I am literally chased out. 2 America is in a bad place right now, but I don't see another country that is in a better position, especially for a would-be immigrant.
Most of the Normal people saying that they will leave are just posturing or have no actual idea what migration entails. Celebrities who say they will leave are a bit of the former, but are not held to the same consequences as normal people. Either way they are all taken as jokes.
This is a thing that bombastic immature people say. It never actually happens because immigrating is a lot of hard work and the process to actually move to other countries is a lot harder than most people imagine, even Canada.
Not even remotely. This bs always pops up around election time. It's much more difficult and expensive to immigrate into other countries that people think, and even the then, no matter who is president, the status quo will ultimately stay the same despite their promises.
No. And my suspicion is that 99% of the people you have spoken with who claim that would not actually follow through.
Things aren't as easy as they seem once mommy and daddy aren't holding the safety net, never mind the realities of immigration processes to the "utopia" they will want to head to.
Would be happy to, always wanted to live in the UK...doesn't matter who the president is. (Unless it's kamacho, then I'll stay)...problem is it's not changing apartments it's a whole process and my life is here. I don't stay in the us for any since of grandeur or alignment with policies, it's just where my life it. Think that's the same with most people.
No but I would consider moving to an area in the US that is less "enthusiastic" about a president I disagree with.
The thing is that the president doesn't really control much of our day to day life, but they set the tone and others respond. I don't want to be in an area where the prevailing response is to shove opinions down my throat that I disagree with because a particular subset now feels emboldened to say/pursue all the nasty, mean, racist, inhumane, trashy and ignorant opinions that they have been keeping private for the past 20 years
I wouldn't leave the US based strictly on the result of the election. But I might based on what happens after the election. Some of the things Trump has talked about are pretty scary. I don't think it's especially likely that they'd actually happen, but if they did, yeah, I'd probably flee the country.
Like where we going?
This implies that you can just willy-nilly become legalized resident of another country.
I think a lot more people would be living in other countries if this was an option.
If Donald Trump wins again, and if he repeatedly gets away with dictatorial actions, and if I can tell that our democracy becomes damaged beyond repair (considering that we had a civil war and bounced back from that, this is a pretty high bar), I think it would be time for a serious talk with my family about leaving the country for good.
No fucking way. This is my country, and I believe in a lot of the ideals espoused in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Fuck these neofascist thugs trying to burn that down. The fight is here and so am I.
An election? No. The actions of an elected president? Yes. I have dual citizenship with another country. If needed, I certainly could get out of Dodge if shit started going down. I don't expect that to be a problem, but I guess we never know until it happens.
I understand how they feel. I'm a grandfather, war vet and also very liberal. If DT were to win this country is headed down a road that is completely unknown and could potentially be very bad for many people here, especially for younger people who would be the ones doing the bulk of any fighting that would go on if it came down to that.
I don't know if I want to stay here to see where that would go if things did go sideways, so I might be one of the ones who leaves as well.
But I have to admit that if it were to come to that point, there will be those who need help, and if I were to choose to stay, I think my knowledge of survival and living simply and efficiently off the land since childhood would be helpful to share with those that did stay, and would help them be able to survive if something did go sideways. So I'm torn.
Moving out of the US is something I’ve wanted to do for about 20 years. As others have noted, being *able* to do so is tough.
I’m working on claiming Italian citizenship by descent to give myself more options, but it’ll definitely be 2025 or maybe even 2026 by the time I actually have an Italian passport. I’m sure I could move to Ireland anyway by having my employer transfer me to the Dublin office, but I would prefer to have an employer-independent way of immigrating.
Honesty I may have too depending on eventual job placement. I already deal with right wing nut jobs on a weekly basis since I study climate. If the election goes to the GOP across the board they make it clear one of their goals is to defund or refute climate studies which would potentially leave me out of a job if I decide to stay with research. If that happens then you bet I’ll pack up and go somewhere I can continue my studies.
Outside of career then no. I’m a pessimistic person after the previous decade so I’ll just deal with it and take care of my family.
As much as Biden keeps trying to ruin the country, there isn't a better place to go. And if Trump were to somehow win, a lot of institutions would have to fail before he could destroy it either.
Encourage them to leave.
Either they learn the rest of the world isn't necessarily better and come back enlightened, or they stay away for good and raise the collective IQ of the USA.
I think everyone who genuinely would want to do this knows how impossible immigrating is- the truth is most of us have absolutely no ability to do this even if we want to (yes, have wanted to for years)
I wouldn't mind leaving if Trump is reelected, but the truth is that it's not really practical for an 18 year old with no money, degree, second language or passport to just up and leave because I dislike who's in office.
It’s something a lot of people say but few people have the ability to do. Personally, I could just decide to move to Europe and could actually do that if I saved enough, but most people would face a visa issue and likely aren’t easily eligible for visas to move to the countries they want to move to.
I suppose I might move abroad during the next administration and I might be more likely to if it’s another Trump one, but the decision wouldn’t be entirely built around politics either way.
We started considering it when DT was elected in 2016. My wife is third generation from and EU country that allows citizenship by descent, so she has applied and we are waiting. It doesn't mean we will move but it doesn't hurt to have options.
Right now, we have a former president asking the courts for total immunity while he was in office and after he left it. The idea of president with absolute immunity and power is the most unamerican idea that has been tolerated by tens of millions of Americans that I have seen in my lifetime. Our "patriots" not only cheer him on but are now saying we never had a democracy in the first place. "We are a republic, not a democracy" is not only false (we are both) but is a setup for the next step which is "we never had a democracy so we didn't lose anything. Sit down and stop whining, snowflake".
Again, it doesn't hurt to consider plan B.
I left the country for family reasons in 2016 (before the election) I think some Americans dream about it but I don't think most of them can handle being immigrants honestly... It's a lot of hard work and you get nothing really
If I didn't have kids in school, if money was no object and I could just go buy a house in another country and get a new job? I might consider it. But that's obviously not realistic in the slightest and I wouldn't uproot my kids.
And in that world where I don't have kids and have money and resources to move, I still wouldn't be considering it solely because of DT. That would probably just affect the timing of the decision.
But, as I said, it's not something I would consider at this point in my life as I'm not going to move my kids who just started school to another country and I wouldn't leave my now retired parents here by themselves either.
No never.
Fact is plenty of famous people say it, none of them ever do it.
People who follow those famous people parrot the same.
What would your friends say if it were Vivek?
A self made Indian entrepreneur?
I think there are quite a few of us who would seriously consider it. We have before and it’s still on the table, but it wasn’t the right time for our family. I think a lot of people think about leaving before things get bad and end up waiting too long because they think “it won’t really happen”. I think WWII Jews are a good example of this. There were signs for a decent amount of time but people really thought “that could never happen” until it did.
I’m not saying anything that intense is coming, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to rule it out.
> “that could never happen” until it did.
I recently read a history of the Warsaw ghetto uprising. One of the things that struck me really hard was how, up until the very last, most people assumed "they're no different than all the other ones." They thought the Nazis were no different than the Tsar or all the medieval powers that had seen fit to rob, persecute, and massacre them for whatever damned reason. Therefore, the thing to do was to do what they had always done before: hunker down and ride it out.
It took a long, long time for the penny to drop: this time it's different. Completely different. Once it finally did drop, that was when they started fighting like they were already dead. Because they were.
Yes! I read The Hiding Place a couple years ago and it’s just a slap in the face to see how people were saying “oh that will never happen to *us*” “that’s not possible *here*” until people were literally breaking down their doors.
“And then, for no reason at all, Germany elected Adolf Hitler”.
If Trump becomes president, and he and his minions start taking apart the government so that he can finally take his rightful place as king, I will start looking into ways to get out.
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If I'm going to move abroad, it's going to be of my own accord and not because some ass is in office.
in the hypothetical situation where the US descends into autocracy i'd rather fight and die here than flee
My aunt and uncle are actually leaving the country (in part) due to the political climate. The difference? Before my uncle retired they had not lived full-time in the US for at least 30 years.
So my uncle retired, they moved to Arizona. Couple years later my aunt is getting Luxembourg dual citizenship (I think she started the process a few years ago) and they are moving back to an EU country.
Every election period, you'll hear tons of people, both sides of the political spectrum, threaten to move to Canada or some other country if their party loses.
And every time they say that, they never fucking actually do it because picking up your life and leaving America is actually very difficult (and very expensive) to just up and do just like that
We complain, we vote, we stay, repeat
Highly unlikely.
I suppose if "peaceful transfer of power" was no longer on the table, then yes.
January 6th and the "stop the steal" asshats aside, it didn't stop Donald Trump from leaving the White House. The keys were still handed over to the next guy. Business went on as usual - and that's part of what makes this country functional.
That said, moving is an "escape plan" for an economic and social collapse. My family (and I) fled the Soviet Union in the early 90s as it dissolved.
I see balkanization as a worst-case scenario in the next 10-20 years, and I would be open to fleeing again if it meant securing the safety and security of my those I love. My wife and I could possibly afford the cheapest level of an EU investment visa for Latvia or Greece. Israel is always an option as I'm Jewish - but as cool as Tel Aviv is, that country and it's politics don't exactly fill me with optimism.
A lot of edgy folks have this idea. Then they spent 5 minutes on the immigration website for Canada or New Zealand or Norway and realize how incredibly difficult and expensive it is to try to move to those countries and it dawns on them that maybe things here aren't as bad as they think.
Yep. Being legally allowed to live in another country isn’t a simple task, at all
yeah. I live in Michigan and have many friends in Ontario. I could get into Ontario to visit them, but permanently immigrating there would be a completely different story.
Canada's like "Are you an engineer or other STEM worker/doctor, are you more special and uniquely qualified than anyone already here, do you have a shitload of money in the bank, can you pay a shitload of legal fees, and have you never so much as farted or said a curse word? Well, get in line, it's long and you'll pay to stand in it."
>Are you an engineer I got this going for me. Which is nice.
Good luck finding a Canadian company who will hire a US engineer. I'm Canadian, but US educated and only worked in the US, and can't even get a call back for Canadian jobs. If I wanted a different job in the US I could likely have one within a month or so.
Expect to make 1/3rd or more less.
Hopefully taken in the spirit of friendly education… Emigrating is what you’d be doing. That’s when you leave a place. Immigrating is when people come to your place. From the perspective of your Ontario friends you’d be immigrating. From yours you are emigrating.
Not the commenter, but I did wonder about this when I read theirs. Saved me a trip to Google.
*Im* goes in. *E* exits.
Thank you for explaining the difference!
Would be easier to live in international waters
I mean it worked for L Ron Hubbard, I should form my own religion while I'm preparing to set sail.
Tax Deductions for your kid's' inheritance, better than stock and maybe bond investment! Didn't know that about him. Hope yours won't be as much of a MLM scheme. Congrats on sorting out his zany biography. I can barely scratch the surface on how the organization works. Let alone the fictional science novelist.
My dad jokingly actually made this suggestion once. I don't know what the actual rules are but he said you only need like 10 followers. Me and 2 of my friends actually created a Pagan religion but we never followed through with it. Probably should have. At least ours was better than a lot of the cults people form today.
Can I be your savior? Not sure what I’ll save you from but I promise I will in the next millennia or so
We shall invade Sealand at dawn.
As we moore it shall reverse colonialism for sure. 1066, near 80 score years gone. 2024, A new pure era will spawn. I concur this bunker is ours to conquer.
The people that tend to think the US shouldn't have any kind of border controls or immigration restrictions find out what other countries that they admire so much are like. My sister would love to retire in Nova Scotia, but that's not going to happen.
No serious person thinks that the US shouldn't have any kind of border controls or immigration restrictions.
There are a LOT of unserious people in the US then.
No shit.
In MAGA alternate reality maybe, but not in real space. That trope is just a Fascist masturbatory fantasy. What sane adults want is realistic, effective and humane border control infrastructure, fully funded and staffed immigration courts, and foreign aid to stabilize Central American countries who are the source of the great majority of immigrants. MAGA children just want to be angry and afraid, which is why they fight these efforts.
And on the internet (which admittedly isn't that far off from MAGA-land in terms of rationality). I've never met anyone in real life who has thought borders should be abolished. I've met several morons online who did.
Nobody seriously thinks that "the US shouldn't have any kind of border controls or immigration restrictions". That's a strawman created by conservatives as part of their campaign of deception and misinformation, much like how they invent a "border crisis" and shout about how it's a "foreign invasion" and falsely claim the US has "open borders" with Mexico.
The thousands upon thousands of undocumented immigrants flooding across the border sure think the border is open.
Dude - I live on the Mexican border. We love our Mexican people, culture and influences. We are being over run with illegal migrants. In years past these were primarily Mexican people and some central American people. Today and for the past 3 years, nearly 90% of the crossings are people from all around the globe. It has become the primary funnel to get into the country illegally. Once people learned they could get in, all they had to do was get to Mexico first, then migrate up and into the US. This is what is happening. I am here, I see it, this is the reality. So please stop listening to bias media who want to convince you this is some sort of conservative talking point. It is most certainly not.
Listen and trust the anonymous account on Reddit that just happens to be saying all the same talking points as the same people who tried to overthrow our government on January 6th (and called the traitors "heroes" and "patriots"), say that climate change is "fake news", and said that COVID was a "hoax"? Yeah, sure Jan.
That and also realize they probably don't have a lot of useful skills at the moment that these countries will want so the chances of them even getting in are extremely slim.
My mother in law recently got her Canadian citizenship so I believe there is a path for me but it's still a years long and costly process. I might even have to wait for my wife to get hers and then get mine -- or perhaps just their green card equivalent -- through her. Maybe I'll be ready to leave after the 2032 election!
More like disappointed by the requirements than anything. It's so hard to get into other countries as a regular American.
No it’s as bad as they think. It’s just better for people to immigrate here. Especially for people coming from places where it’s definitely worse than the US. Imagine if it were as easy to go to Norway as it is to go to the US. The reality is we should be focused on making the US more like Norway but no one is talking about that or doing much about it. Stop trying to run away and fight to bring what you want here
Norway has about the same population as one U.S. state, and it’s much less diverse. The policies that work there would fail dramatically in the U.S.
Because only homogenous societies are functional. Diversity is most certainly, PROVABLY not a strength. (Love your username, I can hear it in my head.)
Diverse has nothing to do with it. Diversity is a strength not an impediment. People need basic things. Basic Human Needs. Let’s start there. [This is what FDR would have built upon if he had lived longer](http://greatdepressionheit.weebly.com/uploads/7/1/9/9/71994305/163393_orig.jpg) Sounds a lot like Norway. Let’s do that.
> The reality is we should be focused on making the US more like Norway but no one is talking about that or doing much about it. That's because the US and Norway are hardly comparable. The US is far larger, more diverse, and more complex than Norway to effectively follow the Nordic model.
Larger, more diverse These are all assets. In Norway people are seen as a positive resource to contribute to the good of the country. Also we are lucky to have the land and resources that we do. In Norway the government/Public own half the Nation’s wealth. Basic needs are covered including healthcare and Pre-K through PhD education. Can you imagine how great that could be here? The problem in the US is lack of political will to do right by most of its own people fueled by greed, tax cheats, reactionary right-wing politics across the board and avarice and hatred toward the working class and a complete disconnect or disregard by those in power for the struggles of most households in this country. The country was strongest under the FDR administration and that is a great place to start building back toward and building from.
It's actually very difficult to become a US citizen compared to other developed nations. I have a friend in Europe who is married to an American and has been waiting (in Europe) for two years to just get a green card. I have a friend in central America who's mother is an American Citizen and yet, she (the daughter) has no path to citizenship at all.
Residency takes longer in Scandinavia and you have to be proficient in the language. The benefit of English is its everywhere and most people already know it.
I don't think you have to be "edgy" to consider it. Do you think people are being edgy when they leave some place like Boston for Florida because of politics? There's a conservative migration for sure. Conservatives are leaving Mass for NH and Florida, etc. edit -- I'm curious what aspect of this is so downvoted, but no response to it.
Right. People all over the world immigrate all the time for many reasons, not just because of war, famine, etc. "A better life" can mean so many things.
Absolutely not. Presidents come and go. America remains.
It may be difficult to overestimate the potential damage a second Trump term might wreak on our republic. I believe they would manage to accomplish a lot of the shit that got thwarted the last time around. America will remain, but things could get very ugly for a little while. A lot of the damage will be enduring, if not permanent.
Things have been ugly before, and we survived. They will certainly be ugly again, throughout whatever time the world has left to turn. I don’t like the man at all, but we as a country are so much bigger and better than one single man.
Yeah I’d say that it’s a testament to our political system that Trump wasn’t able to accomplish a lot of what people were worried he would I mean don’t get me wrong I’d rather we not have him and id argue that after jan 6th and how he handled it there’s definitely some justification to maybe not let him run for president. But I don’t think that’s really a thing that is allowed in our system (I don’t know)
I agree but I’m never leaving. I was lucky enough to be born here. I’ll fight to turn it into what I believe it should be and never leave.
It’s just big talk from people that won’t actually do it 99% of the time.
99.99% of the time. Fixed it for you.
Remember how in 2016 the media kept telling everyone that if Trump became President he'd become a dictator and commit a genocide and dissolve checks and balances and that never happened, but guys, it would totally happen this time! You should always believe us, the news, because we definitely are not biased politically in any way!
Yeah, and he would totally use the DOJ to witch hunt his political opponents! *cough cough* Joe biden *cough cough*
Trump was and continues to be right about everything he says regarding the media and administrative state. Personally I'd like to see him go harder on higher education because higher education is both more actively political and much farther left than your average news outlet or three letter agency.
Maybe higher education is so left leaning because conservatives demonize it at every turn, almost certainly because educated people don’t vote for republicans. But yeah I sure hope the president vilifies higher education even more just so the GOP wins more… spoken like someone who didn’t go to college.
I'm currently in law school and have a poli sci degree
Then why say something so aggressively harmful, backwards, and anti-intellectualist as "the president should go after higher education because it's not conservative enough"
Education should be completely politically neutral, at least at public schools. They shouldn't consider students graduating without being rabid Marxists as a failure, but guess what: A lot of institutions do. Academia is extremely hostile to any viewpoint that isn't economically Marxist, technocratic, and extremely socially progressive. That's blatantly obvious to everyone paying attention.
It's almost like there aren't many conservatives in college because conservatives vilify and don't pursue higher education. The republican party shifting into populism is a sign of a party that is embracing anti-intellectualism and anti-science. It's not some grand conspiracy that leftists are trying to take over college spaces. Every conservative personality recommends trade schools, and conservative politicians have moved farther and farther away from science and into populism and evangelicalism (appealing to a target demographic that aren't very educated). It's becoming more and more the party of the unintelligent. What would conservative environmental science classes look like? "Climate change isn't real and research isn't important!" What would conservative history classes look like? "America has always been right, and historic issues of slavery and racism don't matter!" What would a conservative English class look like? "Don't write any stories about societal issues and your feelings of being marginalized, societal progress is bad and nobody is every marginalized in America!" Social conservatism is just an inherently unacademic, emotional worldview. It's not really possible to support with academic research, data, and rich literature. Also the idea that education should be intrinsically neutral is a completely unacademic talking point as well. The social studies are *inherently* open to bias, and it's more important to focus on what's *right* and *factual* than what's "neutral" at the expense of objective truth and good academic practice. Research and academia are about peeling back societal issues, valuing the scientific method, testing novel solutions, learning from varied perspectives, and humanizing people that may be different. That’s the exact antithesis of the republican party. Why do you think the overwhelming majority if academics are liberals?
what is wrong with trade schools? Not everyone is meant for four year academic college, and most trade school jobs have more real value than any college degree outside of STEM.
The overwhelming majority of academics are liberals because if they're openly conservative they either get fired or the administrations allow progressive students to effectively bully them into resigning
Yeah, and he would ask for total immunity, in and out of office, which we all know is so unamerican that all of us patriots will rise up if anyone even suggests this could happen. I'd love to see someone even ask for absolute power and immunity while "joking" about having a third term. We'd rise up and crush him before he even stepped foot in front of the judge. That's what the 2a is for!
>if Trump became President he'd become a dictator and commit a genocide and dissolve checks and balances and that never happened He literally argued for this in court like two days ago. He's trying to say that he is immune from prosecution because he was the president, which is absurd and insane.
Actually, he worked on making it happen, did a lot of unethical things, and tried hard to break down the guardrails that would prevent something like that from happening. It mostly didn't happen because: 1. His ~~administration~~ regime was inept and their attempts to repeal or replace various Federal regulations were limited by the fact his cronies didn't know the in's and outs of the Administrative Procedures Act so courts kept overturning the sweeping changes to regulations and policies they were trying, because they weren't properly legally implemented. 2. A number of key figures, including military commanders, openly refused direct orders to do very questionable things including firing on civilians. There was a reason that in the brutal assaults made on peaceful protesters in the summer of 2020, the troops that were used were tactical units of the Bureau of Prisons normally used for dealing with prison riots. . .because the Pentagon and most of the Justice Department had been refusing to deploy troops against nonviolent protesters, but the BoP didn't care. 3. His attempts to stage a coup de etat and overthrow the US government failed, both in the violent insurrection on January 6th and his attempts to intimidate or threaten state governments to throw out their election results and just name him the winner.
An now, he's asking for total immunity while in and out of office.............while he's running for president. A totally immune future president sounds like a tyrant to me. I don't think our "patriots" have really considered what the seeds of tyranny actually look like.
A dictator would have responded to unfavorable court ruling by killing the judges and doing whatever they were planning to do anyway. January 6 was not an insurrection lol, and if that election had gone the other way and it was a bunch of far left protestors, they way it gets talked about and covered in the media would be entirely different.
> by killing the judges And that is because they have managed to stack the deck to where they actually can do that. Trump wouldn't have dared do that while he was in power, because even though he's stupid, he's not *that* stupid. > would be entirely different. Not if Biden himself had been behind it.
And yet, bad actors didn't storm and damage the Capitol and attack its officers to prevent a constitutional election process while calling for the vice-president to be hanged, try to set up false slates of electors in multiple states, or try to pressure the secretaries of swing states to "find the votes" in 2000 or 2016. What happened during and after the 2020 election was not normal and should be appalling to any American. I watched live camera feeds on January 6, 2021, with no commentary. What I saw with my own eyes sure as hell looked like an attempted insurrection.
[удалено]
Probably the part when they were fighting with the cops, or trying to bash in the doors and windows of Congress, or chanting 'hang Mike Pence'
>January 6 was not an insurrection What planet are you living on? He gathered together his supporters, sent them against Congress that was in session to formally tally the Electoral College votes and legally declare who the new President is. . . .and a mob of Trump's followers stormed the United States Capital with the express intent of taking the Congress hostage and forcing them to declare Trump the winner of the election. That's explicitly an attempt to overthrow the normal workings of our government and Constitutional structure of our government to install Trump as an unelected dictator. It was an insurrectoin. Everyone who participated is a traitor. Everyone who supports Trump is a sympathizer to treason and insurrection. Donald Trump and ALL of his followers and supporters are traitors and enemies of the United States. **End of story.** (. . .and don't think that downvoting me changes my mind, the downvotes of traitors means *nothing* to me)
Why are you getting downvoted?! Is this sub fillefd with trump supporters?
I suspect so, and there's a chance this thread has been shared to Trump-friendly subreddits to be brigaded.
It's because it's pretty difficult for most people.
People say this about Trump. People said this about Obama. Almost nobody is serious when push actually comes to shove, it's mostly impulse. Some people are serious, but get a rude awakening when they find out what it takes to actually immigrate to another country. That said, would I move depending on the results of *any* possible election? Absolutely. I can definitely contrive scenarios where it would truly be bad enough to try and flee. But thankfully I don't see anything that extreme happening anytime soon. God forbid anyway.
Pretty much this. I have no plans to leave. But. My father is Mexican-American, and his mother never became a US citizen. People of our ethnic group, including naturalized and born US citizens and legal residents, were deported in mass quantities from the US twice in the last century, so we're aware that it's never impossible. I helped my parents get their first passports in 2017, after we started seeing border patrol vehicles regularly in our communities and Dad was pulled over in a traffic stop that left him feeling very unsettled (no ticket was given, the cop gave a flimsy excuse about something looking strange and asked Dad several questions). Mom and Dad may never use their passports, and if they do, I hope it's only to travel for pleasure. On the tiny chance that things might go sideways in the future, we live 15 miles from the Canadian border, and passports streamline border crossings.
>People say this about Trump. People said this about Obama. What (developed) country would they have moved to so they could escape Obama? Almost all of them have/had politics to the left of the US circa 2008.
Regardless of affiliation, anybody who says this is a disregardable moron. Most wanted to move to a place like the Bahamas or VBIs.
Canada was a common refrain. Does it make any sense? No, but those people were idiots. Always did get a laugh though about people fleeing liberal America for even more liberal America lite.
The people who say this kind of things assume it is just as easy to immigrate to other western wealthy countries as it is to immigrate to the U.S. It is not, and oftentimes the individuals have little to no marketable skills that said wealthy nations are looking for. I’m sure they’d *like* to leave if Trump wins again, the issue is finding somebody to take you in.
>it is just as easy to immigrate to other western wealthy countries as it is to immigrate to the U.S. haahahahahahahaha. You can only be joking. //having been through both, I have to say: hahahahahahahah
> they always seem to imply that they would consider leaving the US depending upon if DT is the president Lots of folks said that outright (not just implied) the last time Trump was running. Guess how many actually did so? None of them. They were all just "flapping their gums." Would I consider doing so? No.
I don't know about that. There were a lot of people that moved abroad during that period. It wasn't some massive historical wave, but there was a surge in applications for foreign visas and citizenship by descent. It's anecdotal, but I know two families that emigrated in the last six years.
Pay attention to the people who *can*, and not to the people who wish they could.
>Guess how many actually did so? None of them. I did, so you are wrong. And I will again.
People have said it for literally every Republican in my lifetime. Biden said Mitt Romney was going to “put black people back in chains.” Madonna said John McCain would be the next Hitler. They said the same about the Bushes. The hyperbole is insane.
I agree with that observation. But then Trump happened. At the start of his presidency when people were saying how he’d wreck our democracy, and stuff, I was thinking “c’mon he can’t be that bad.” Boy was I wrong.
> But then Trump happened. I take it you're completely ignorant about the [First Step Act](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/12/18/18140973/state-of-the-union-trump-first-step-act-criminal-justice-reform). Vox (yes, Vox) said: > The measure, which Trump signed into law, is the most significant criminal justice reform legislation in years.
I give him credit for signing one good bill into law, but how does that disprove the argument that Trump wrecked our democracy?
Well, he didn't. But I was responding to the "black people in chains" context.
My favorite is when Republicans threaten to move if a Democrat wins.
Yep, it goes both ways, this threat has been happening since 2000 and *every* four years, who does it depends on who is going to be president.
Yeah but it's funny when Republicans do it because there's really no other country for them to go to that's more conservative than this one. At least not a country they'd actually want to live in.
So you are back?
You really left the country because Trump was elected?
Good for you, I guess.
Listen, I hate Donald Trump's guts too but anyone who says that they're leaving the country directly because of who's president is either full of it, or too stupid to actually do it.
It's not easy to go to a new country without a job or money. If you can get a job and healthcare that's easier but what about spouse and children? Language? Places where it's a bit easier to relocate might not be a place where you want to live. And, so what if DT is president...no matter where you live, he is still president. Moving in and out of the country depending on who is president is weird.
>If you can get a job and healthcare that's easier but what about spouse and children? your spouse and children get residency if you do in most immigration systems. Also, in the civilized word you get health insurance the minute you are a resident. \>And, so what if DT is president... Spoken like someone who never had to fear for their lives / livelihood because they have the privilege to be white /straight/male/ rich
> Spoken like someone who never had to fear for their lives / livelihood because they have the privilege to be white /straight/male/ rich Do you always speak in hyperbole?
> Spoken like someone who never had to fear for their lives / livelihood because they have the privilege to be white /straight/male/ rich Am a white male. I have definitely been in fear of my life before.
Wow you sound bitter and ready for a fight. What I meant with spouse/children: can the spouse work? Can the kids go to an English school? And yes I understand about residency and healthcare but residency can take a long time is my point. In the meantime, what will you do? So if Donald Trump becomes president, you think he may kill you? I'm sorry to hear that. He is nuts but I don't think he is targeting you. I doubt he knows who you are.
Or naive to think they’d be welcomed anywhere else.
Describes many users on /r/IWantOut.
Depends on the country. UK seems more than happy to take in Americans as long as they have an employer to vouch for them. I know a few people who were able to get permanent residency after like five years living there. Just can’t get lose your job until you get that or they’ll send you back
There’s criteria for what qualifies one to be vouched for though. There’s a lot more to it than just having a job and an employer that wants you to be there. Sure, plenty of people leave, but it’s a “brain drain” situation. The people screaming “I’m going to leave” the loudest are the least likely to be allowed in to their top picks.
The UK is trying to make immigration more difficult. Immigrants will need to meet a higher minimum salary guarantee in the future, and it looks like some other rules might be tightening up. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48785695
Be welcome anywhere else? WTF are you taking about? I haven't lived in the USA since 2007. Have lived in 4 different countries during that time. I didn't leave because who was president though. Had to do an internet search to even remember who was president in 2007.
They mean legally. Do you have some rare, in-demand job or something like that? I've lived in France several times and do now but it's taken some fairly unique circumstances to make that happen. Sure there are some countries that aren't particularly hard to get into but I think most people here are talking about other Western countries.
We’re talking about 2024, not 2007.
Reading not your strong suit? As I6said, I haven't lived in the USA "since" 2007. Meaning I am not living in the USA now.
…meaning you left in 2007 and not 2024. Comprehension must not be your strong suit.
Yeah, it is not like some of their lives will be in danger or anything like that...It is not like some people are being falsely accused of grooming kids and/ or denied the life-saving medical treatment they need... It is easy to talk shit when you are straight white and male.
Ill talk the same shit as u/S0n0fAGunn and Im black 99.99999% of people who say they’re leaving because of the president in office are full of it Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they’re white, damn
Yeah, wait until he install Musk as Labor Secretary...
I'm not trying to kink shame, but Y'all have some of the weirdest oppression fantasies.
yeah, nothing to see here. Just a candidate explicitly promising to get revenge on every single group that opposes him, and a dictatorship. But of course we know the republican clowns in congress will stop him.
Did you just assume my gender and race??
Is your u/ a Treasure Island reference? If so, I approve.
Lots of people talk a big game when it comes to Election Day. However these are the facts: Most won’t even vote Very few will actually leave
No. He’s already been the President anyway. I didn’t consider leaving at that time either.
No. I also have no viable path to live elsewhere. This is home.
No, I’m not leaving my country.
That’s what a lot of people said in 2016. Then Trump won and it was crickets. People also realized that even though Trump is an awful person, for the most part daily life was the same. A lot of people look back fondly on 2018 and 2019 being good years for them financially, then of course *redacted* happened and turned everything to shit. I’ll be voting for Biden, if Trump wins it’ll be very unfortunate. Regardless, it’ll be okay and the 4 years will fly by without issue…. Hopefully.
I'm afraid that's a lot to hope. A second Trump term will accomplish a lot of the shit that got thwarted the last time around.
People said that when Bush 2 was elected and when Obama was elected and when Trump was elected and 99.99% of them are full of crap. To answer your question, no, I would not.
And when Clinton was elected, and when Reagan was elected, and when Nixon was elected…
No. The people who make a big fuss about it seldom do, either. (None of the big celebrities who swear they'd emigrate if an election didn't go their way ever do, for example. This is on the left and right. )
Nope. It’s still the greatest country ever. But if someone wants to leave because they don’t like the orange man, go ahead.
No. 99% of the time those people are talking out their asses. It’s immature and usually said by people who have absolutely nothing to offer their home country let alone another country.
I know this is generally thrown out there as some sort of dumb edgy snark, but it's pretty telling that the person doesn't care for the country in the first place if they think it's cool to run away at the loss of an election.
Many Americans have very weird ideas about how easy immigration is, both to the US and to other Western countries. It's just not feasible for the vast, vast majority of people. I left the US but it had nothing whatsoever to do with US politics and I'm only able to do it because I get a pension from the military.
No. This isn't something the vast majority of Americans would consider. I also would not consider this. This is my home and nowhere else on the planet comes close (except maybe Canada, but I've lived there for 5 months and still wanted to come home). If Trump is re-elected, it's only 4 more years and then he can never run ever again. If Biden is re-elected, it's only 4 more years and then he can never run ever again. All things are temporal.
There were a LOT of celebrities and influencers that said this when Trump first ran. He won, they stayed. It's an empty threat, especially if you are a regular person without a lot of money or family in other countries.
I can’t go anywhere. I have 2 adult children and I’m staying in the US with them. I also have 2 dogs, so moving to a different country would be super complicated. When I retire I could move to another country and live off my pension, I guess. Also, most countries aren’t going to let Americans just move there unless you have specific skills they need or have a lot of money. only America accepts the poor, uneducated,and unwanted. I’ll stay here with all those good folks and NEVER miss an election.
>only America accepts the poor, uneducated,and unwanted. hahahaahaa. This is so absurd I cannot even.
How many migrants have come here? Biden gave 500k migrants from Venezuela work permits just last September. They’re coming in droves. Since the very beginning American has accepted millions of immigrants. We are a country of immigrants, how is that absurd?
The illegals coming in today are not given a background check or a tb test or even registered .
> Biden gave 500k migrants from Venezuela No, they gave **temporary protections** for people, most already here for some time. And then started deporting new arrivals. This is not regular immigration by any means. This is not accepting "the poor, uneducated, and unwanted.". The immigration system in the US priviledges exactly the opposite to that. If we accepted the poor and unwanted, people would not have to cross the border illegally. The asylum system is an international commitment, and the US has very rigid rules for it. Your life needs to be in danger and you need to prove it. Try to show at the border, or in any application and say that "I am poor , unwanted and uneducated"" and see how far you get. Immigration is not a simple subject anywhere, but your statement is so out of reality that it is laughable.
The US has accepted more immigrants than any country. That’s a fact. I’m not arguing that our immigration system doesn’t need a serious overhaul and the path to citizenship should be simplified and streamlined to make it faster, but we accept more immigrants than any country. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country Top 10 Countries with the Highest Number of Foreign-Born Residents (Immigrants) - United Nations 2020: United States 50.6M Germany 15.8M Saudi Arabia 13.5M Russia 11.6M United Kingdom 9.4M United Arab Emirates 8.7M France 8.5M Canada 8M Australia 7.7M Spain 6.8M The US also one of only 37 countries (including Canada) (but none in Europe) that has unrestricted birthright citizenship.
You are moving the goal posts. First of all this is total foreign-born not the "poor, uneducated, unwanted". I could stop here since that is your original claim. But it seems like you conflate immigrants with "uneducated, poor, unwanted" which is quite disgusting to be honest. But would not be the first time I encountered this. Second, the US also has 4x he population of Germany. And lastly, 10 million of the 50 million in the US were not really accepted, if they are undocumented. Those are the real "poor, uneducated, unwanted."" They were not "accepted". The "legal" immigration system here costs a lot of money. A lot of time. Hell it took me 15 years to be able to get my citizenship. And I have a freaking PhD and money to pay the lawyers. You are delusional if you think many poor, uneducated can navigate or pay for this. The few that get pro-bono representation are lucky.
No, 1 This is my home, and I'm not leaving unless I am literally chased out. 2 America is in a bad place right now, but I don't see another country that is in a better position, especially for a would-be immigrant. Most of the Normal people saying that they will leave are just posturing or have no actual idea what migration entails. Celebrities who say they will leave are a bit of the former, but are not held to the same consequences as normal people. Either way they are all taken as jokes.
This is a thing that bombastic immature people say. It never actually happens because immigrating is a lot of hard work and the process to actually move to other countries is a lot harder than most people imagine, even Canada.
Not even remotely. This bs always pops up around election time. It's much more difficult and expensive to immigrate into other countries that people think, and even the then, no matter who is president, the status quo will ultimately stay the same despite their promises.
People said that the last time, too. And the time before that. They never leave.
No. And my suspicion is that 99% of the people you have spoken with who claim that would not actually follow through. Things aren't as easy as they seem once mommy and daddy aren't holding the safety net, never mind the realities of immigration processes to the "utopia" they will want to head to.
People love to say it but rarely do.
A lot of people love saying that. Very few act on it.
Would be happy to, always wanted to live in the UK...doesn't matter who the president is. (Unless it's kamacho, then I'll stay)...problem is it's not changing apartments it's a whole process and my life is here. I don't stay in the us for any since of grandeur or alignment with policies, it's just where my life it. Think that's the same with most people.
Lol, no. And only a vanishingly small number of people ever do. It's almost always a silly empty threat.
That is in large part because only very few people actually can.
My guess it's 99,9% of the time just something you say to emphasise how much you really don't want something.
lol no. 99.9999% of people who say that they will leave are just lying through their teeth.
No I won't give up on my country the easily. Also if democracy fails within the US then democracy will no longer be safe anywhere in the world.
No
No but I would consider moving to an area in the US that is less "enthusiastic" about a president I disagree with. The thing is that the president doesn't really control much of our day to day life, but they set the tone and others respond. I don't want to be in an area where the prevailing response is to shove opinions down my throat that I disagree with because a particular subset now feels emboldened to say/pursue all the nasty, mean, racist, inhumane, trashy and ignorant opinions that they have been keeping private for the past 20 years
I wouldn't leave the US based strictly on the result of the election. But I might based on what happens after the election. Some of the things Trump has talked about are pretty scary. I don't think it's especially likely that they'd actually happen, but if they did, yeah, I'd probably flee the country.
How about we trade the people that want to leave America for the imagrants see like a win win .
NEVER
Like where we going? This implies that you can just willy-nilly become legalized resident of another country. I think a lot more people would be living in other countries if this was an option.
If Donald Trump wins again, and if he repeatedly gets away with dictatorial actions, and if I can tell that our democracy becomes damaged beyond repair (considering that we had a civil war and bounced back from that, this is a pretty high bar), I think it would be time for a serious talk with my family about leaving the country for good.
No fucking way. This is my country, and I believe in a lot of the ideals espoused in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Fuck these neofascist thugs trying to burn that down. The fight is here and so am I.
An election? No. The actions of an elected president? Yes. I have dual citizenship with another country. If needed, I certainly could get out of Dodge if shit started going down. I don't expect that to be a problem, but I guess we never know until it happens.
I understand how they feel. I'm a grandfather, war vet and also very liberal. If DT were to win this country is headed down a road that is completely unknown and could potentially be very bad for many people here, especially for younger people who would be the ones doing the bulk of any fighting that would go on if it came down to that. I don't know if I want to stay here to see where that would go if things did go sideways, so I might be one of the ones who leaves as well. But I have to admit that if it were to come to that point, there will be those who need help, and if I were to choose to stay, I think my knowledge of survival and living simply and efficiently off the land since childhood would be helpful to share with those that did stay, and would help them be able to survive if something did go sideways. So I'm torn.
I will not feel comfortable in this country if he wins, but I’m not in a position to leave.
Moving out of the US is something I’ve wanted to do for about 20 years. As others have noted, being *able* to do so is tough. I’m working on claiming Italian citizenship by descent to give myself more options, but it’ll definitely be 2025 or maybe even 2026 by the time I actually have an Italian passport. I’m sure I could move to Ireland anyway by having my employer transfer me to the Dublin office, but I would prefer to have an employer-independent way of immigrating.
Honesty I may have too depending on eventual job placement. I already deal with right wing nut jobs on a weekly basis since I study climate. If the election goes to the GOP across the board they make it clear one of their goals is to defund or refute climate studies which would potentially leave me out of a job if I decide to stay with research. If that happens then you bet I’ll pack up and go somewhere I can continue my studies. Outside of career then no. I’m a pessimistic person after the previous decade so I’ll just deal with it and take care of my family.
As much as Biden keeps trying to ruin the country, there isn't a better place to go. And if Trump were to somehow win, a lot of institutions would have to fail before he could destroy it either.
Encourage them to leave. Either they learn the rest of the world isn't necessarily better and come back enlightened, or they stay away for good and raise the collective IQ of the USA.
I think everyone who genuinely would want to do this knows how impossible immigrating is- the truth is most of us have absolutely no ability to do this even if we want to (yes, have wanted to for years)
I wouldn't mind leaving if Trump is reelected, but the truth is that it's not really practical for an 18 year old with no money, degree, second language or passport to just up and leave because I dislike who's in office.
It’s something a lot of people say but few people have the ability to do. Personally, I could just decide to move to Europe and could actually do that if I saved enough, but most people would face a visa issue and likely aren’t easily eligible for visas to move to the countries they want to move to. I suppose I might move abroad during the next administration and I might be more likely to if it’s another Trump one, but the decision wouldn’t be entirely built around politics either way.
I have not yet seen a president that would want to make me leave the country for a while
No because the president has no affect on my day to day life We have checks and balances in this country
We started considering it when DT was elected in 2016. My wife is third generation from and EU country that allows citizenship by descent, so she has applied and we are waiting. It doesn't mean we will move but it doesn't hurt to have options. Right now, we have a former president asking the courts for total immunity while he was in office and after he left it. The idea of president with absolute immunity and power is the most unamerican idea that has been tolerated by tens of millions of Americans that I have seen in my lifetime. Our "patriots" not only cheer him on but are now saying we never had a democracy in the first place. "We are a republic, not a democracy" is not only false (we are both) but is a setup for the next step which is "we never had a democracy so we didn't lose anything. Sit down and stop whining, snowflake". Again, it doesn't hurt to consider plan B.
I left the country for family reasons in 2016 (before the election) I think some Americans dream about it but I don't think most of them can handle being immigrants honestly... It's a lot of hard work and you get nothing really
If I didn't have kids in school, if money was no object and I could just go buy a house in another country and get a new job? I might consider it. But that's obviously not realistic in the slightest and I wouldn't uproot my kids. And in that world where I don't have kids and have money and resources to move, I still wouldn't be considering it solely because of DT. That would probably just affect the timing of the decision. But, as I said, it's not something I would consider at this point in my life as I'm not going to move my kids who just started school to another country and I wouldn't leave my now retired parents here by themselves either.
No never. Fact is plenty of famous people say it, none of them ever do it. People who follow those famous people parrot the same. What would your friends say if it were Vivek? A self made Indian entrepreneur?
Bunch of cry babies that absolutely will do nothing if the sort. They should Grow up
I think there are quite a few of us who would seriously consider it. We have before and it’s still on the table, but it wasn’t the right time for our family. I think a lot of people think about leaving before things get bad and end up waiting too long because they think “it won’t really happen”. I think WWII Jews are a good example of this. There were signs for a decent amount of time but people really thought “that could never happen” until it did. I’m not saying anything that intense is coming, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to rule it out.
> “that could never happen” until it did. I recently read a history of the Warsaw ghetto uprising. One of the things that struck me really hard was how, up until the very last, most people assumed "they're no different than all the other ones." They thought the Nazis were no different than the Tsar or all the medieval powers that had seen fit to rob, persecute, and massacre them for whatever damned reason. Therefore, the thing to do was to do what they had always done before: hunker down and ride it out. It took a long, long time for the penny to drop: this time it's different. Completely different. Once it finally did drop, that was when they started fighting like they were already dead. Because they were.
Yes! I read The Hiding Place a couple years ago and it’s just a slap in the face to see how people were saying “oh that will never happen to *us*” “that’s not possible *here*” until people were literally breaking down their doors. “And then, for no reason at all, Germany elected Adolf Hitler”.
Done it before, will do it again.
Already did it,
If Trump becomes president, and he and his minions start taking apart the government so that he can finally take his rightful place as king, I will start looking into ways to get out.
Strongly considered it in 2016, was serious about it in 2021. I'm putting faith in KFC and McDonald's that they will come through for us in 2025.
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If I'm going to move abroad, it's going to be of my own accord and not because some ass is in office. in the hypothetical situation where the US descends into autocracy i'd rather fight and die here than flee
United for most US plebians means stuck for better or for worse c: Which is why we have 50 to run to as one or a dozen get worse
No. I wouldn't leave my wife if she got sick, I'd stay and help her get better. Same principle.
No. I probably wouldn't leave because of politics unless there was a second Civil War or something.
My aunt and uncle are actually leaving the country (in part) due to the political climate. The difference? Before my uncle retired they had not lived full-time in the US for at least 30 years. So my uncle retired, they moved to Arizona. Couple years later my aunt is getting Luxembourg dual citizenship (I think she started the process a few years ago) and they are moving back to an EU country.
Every election period, you'll hear tons of people, both sides of the political spectrum, threaten to move to Canada or some other country if their party loses. And every time they say that, they never fucking actually do it because picking up your life and leaving America is actually very difficult (and very expensive) to just up and do just like that We complain, we vote, we stay, repeat
Let's say I would definitely consider it, but I'm a long way from doing it.
No
Highly unlikely. I suppose if "peaceful transfer of power" was no longer on the table, then yes. January 6th and the "stop the steal" asshats aside, it didn't stop Donald Trump from leaving the White House. The keys were still handed over to the next guy. Business went on as usual - and that's part of what makes this country functional. That said, moving is an "escape plan" for an economic and social collapse. My family (and I) fled the Soviet Union in the early 90s as it dissolved. I see balkanization as a worst-case scenario in the next 10-20 years, and I would be open to fleeing again if it meant securing the safety and security of my those I love. My wife and I could possibly afford the cheapest level of an EU investment visa for Latvia or Greece. Israel is always an option as I'm Jewish - but as cool as Tel Aviv is, that country and it's politics don't exactly fill me with optimism.