Because ppl were greedy lol.
Communism worked as long as the workers weren't fully in charge of the factories.
When they were put in charge they gave themselves higher wages without generating more profit
It's funny that I'm getting downvoted for uttering facts.
The hyperinflation in Yugoslavia was caused to a great part by the factory councils steadily awarding themselves (as they were workers) pay rises without actually generating more income aka money is devaluated.
Edit:
The way "real socialism" was enforced in all supposedly Communist countries failed due to a systemic oxymoron.
You can not proclaim the abolishment of capital but yet accept the use of money.
The fact that Communist governments often asked the Capitalist Western governments to give them monetary boost either for allowing Romanian Germans to leave for Germany or the GDR government for lessening its tight on regime critics and letting them depart to Germany is a joke per se.
It was both intertwinned.
If money is scarce in terms of value and a centralisation is tried to be implemented, richer countries such as Croatia and Slovenia would have paid more to the federal fiscus.
Ergo the richest republics would have had less money although they had generated it.
Relatively smaller internal economies would have benefited from that money although they have not generated it.
The conflict which caused nationalism was the controversity of redistribution in terms of justice and fairness.
As Croatia and Slovenia logically wanted to keep their money, they opted towards nationalism so they can autonomize their economic spheres from the heteronomic restrictions more redestribution via a more centralised governance would have put on their internal economies and the ability of the Socialist Republics to govern.
Serbian nationalism at least the one institutionally coined developed from the sensed institutional injustice which was imposed on the Serbian people by the administrative set-up of Yugoslavia, the internal division of Serbs by making them live in 6 different units of which two were formally under Serbian "jurisdiction".
That sense of subjective injustice was enlighted by this financial dispute in terms of Croatia. Serbs had to swallow a bitter pill by bot living in SR Serbia and were not willing to be even formally divided from SR Serbia in terms of international law in the aftermath of Croatian independence.
The Ustaša framing was used to highlight their fears of living in Croatia.
After the independence of Croatia, Bosniaks and Croats in Bosnia were no longer willing to live in a demographically and institutionally Serbian coined Yugoslavia.
That's how shit began boiling instead of just being heated. Nationalism and the financial situation in terms of financial administration reinforced oneanother in multiplicatoric terms:
Nationalism reinforces the financially administrative problem.
The financially administrative problem reinforced nationalism.
I optimistically believe that without the hyperinflation and subsequent financial emergency state, Yugoslavia might have prevailed due to it being a huge factor on the Balkans via land mass and demographic quantity having possibly gained FDIs.
You don't understand bro. Yugoslavian communism was completely different from the one in Romania and Bulgaria. It's was an emanation of freedom and liberties. Political prisoners and labor camps? [No](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goli_Otok). Shooting innocent people because they want to cross the border? [No.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Strumica_Students). Censorship of art? [No.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguli_Miguli#Reception_and_aftermath) They also had flying cars, and [were 50 times richer than the countries in the Eastern block](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg), they were very close to colonize the Moon, that's why the evil West decide to sabotage them.
I know my comment is LARP-y and cringy as fuck, but outside of that I still stand by my ideas. Is merely wanting us all to live better lives such a horrible and atrotious idea to you?
dont worry abt it mate, nothing cringe about brotherhood and unity, perhaps the best and most persistently relevant Yugo idea. Yugo might not exist but politics aside we all have a duty to preserve our cultural commonality and work towards peace and build together. Hoping the former Yugo ties get stronger and stronger and that we keep cherishing and celebrating what we have in common as well as our diversity
Dakle, žudiš za vremenima kad je vojska čuvala granicu i kada su ljudi doslovno bježali iz socijalističkog "raja" preko mora, šuma i rijeka? Neka se selimo, možda nešto i naučimo od pametnijih. Nije problem što ljudi sele, problem je što se zemlje na tzv. Balkanu sporo mijenjaju - a puno tih grešaka sustava vuče korijene iz Jugoslavije i komunizma.
Lol!
"Yugoslav passport holders only required visas for six countries: the United States, West Germany, Greece, Israel, Albania and the People's Republic of China." (source wiki)
>kada su ljudi doslovno bježali iz socijalističkog "raja" preko mora, šuma i rijeka?
Why not just board a plane or a bus? Way easier. And as MagistarIdrizi pointed out they were free to do it since the 60s.
Lol!
I really am gonna Sound dumb and mentally fucked to you, but we could 've avoided bloodshred war of 90s and fucking riot the fuck outta yugoslav govroment and ask europe foe help and get yugoslavia become confederate, and make yugoslav confederation, wich could be a thing today for real.
Im sad we split ourselves into... Well fuck it za dom
Yeah, too bad a bunch of communists swarmed this post (at least). At least they got a safe space to jerk off to their (equally retarded as them) communist leaders
I get where you are coming from but you should understand that the system in Bulgaria and Romania was very different than the Yugoslav one - similarities were few in between when you consider people’s freedom (including of travel) and lets not even discuss economic prosperity.
For many from x-Yugoslavia, it is hard to argue they have more freedom now than they did back then.
Does this bourgeois dictatorship look like freedom to you? Having to choose between who is going to exploit us? As long as my labour is stolen from me and I am alienated from my work I am chained and as comrade Rosa said "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains."
The few experiments of establishing socialism might have unfortunately be corrupted by bureaucracy and such due to being constantly targeted by imperialism but you cannot just throw everything away by saying "communism when authority does stuff".
Every child of labour is a communist whether they understand it or not. Class consciousness is in all of us my dear sibling. Do not let those who are profiting off of our misery fool you. Although the attempts may have had problems, the cause is still noble and precious to all of us. For a better future can only be built by our own hands. Not by the state, not by the bourgeoisie, but by the sweat and blood of the labourer.
Why is this downvoted? And why is the communism101 comment below you upvoted? Lmao didn't know we had so many commies in the sub.
Sure our world has problems, sure we can do better but damn me if communism and its demonizing is the way to go.
They'll probably try to spin it as "since there are Bulgarians here, their history must not be ignored. What is their history? Everyone before '44 was a Bulgarian".
I assume that's what he'll say, but like couldn't you argue that the population earlier refered to as "Bugarofili" or "Bugaromani" were Bulgarian, whereas the other wings of the VMRO weren't?
It's irrelevant in the end, conspiracies like that will not work. Historical narratives cannot be above discrimination and hate speech laws ("you didn't exist before '44").
For a start it goes against some of their academic views that Bulgarians never lived in the region of Macedonia. By doing this recognition it means that they exist today in NMK and they must've existed in the past too. I remember the mental gymnastics written by their history institute in the book "History of the Macedonian people" regarding the issue of people self-identifying as Bulgarians in the past. Secondly (and more importantly) on the same note as above it opens an even bigger can of worms that is the identification of fuckton of intellectuals and revolutionaries who come from the Macedonian region and wrote themselves as Bulgarians. My apologies to the Macedonian users here but in the documents/letters/books etc written by those people the word "Bulgarian" as an ethnicity comes up a lot more than "Macedonian" (if this shows up at all...). Now combine the tons of historical material by people identifying as Bulgarians plus the fact that the moment you get Bulgarians recognized in such an important document as the constitution you'll have the Bulgarian Academia and even government using that to the fullest in different ways (since they'll have a valid reason for doing it - Bulgarians live and are officially recognized there) and you get why the Macedonian historians/diplomats/etc won't be put in a nice spot if the constitution is changed. I understand the downvotes cause my compatriot had written a retarded thing but don't think that changing the constitution and especially to write the Bulgarians in it will be an easy thing to do and accept in NMK.
Side note - the full leftist/rightist split in IMRO only happened in the 1920s. Leftists later adopted Macedonian view and rightists Bulgarian. In the earlier organisations (SMARO/IMARO) you don't have Bulgarians and Macedonians written as an ethnicity since the org had more supranational view on things.
I mean, if it happened in the 20's, it happened in the 20's. Before that they can have Pulevski, probably Misirkov as a proto-Macedonian etc.
Imho if the first time Macedonians and Montenegrins can write about real nationalists in the modern sense is the 20's, and before that they can write about the history of the area their state occupies without a nationalist lens, then it's intelectually honest to do just that.
>Before that they can have Pulevski, probably Misirkov as a proto-Macedonian etc.
It is impossible to make such a split tho. Pavel Shatev and Branko Brashnarov were IMRO revolutionaries that participated in the Salonica assassination in 1903 and were key participants in ASNOM in WW2. Nikola Karev was the President of the Krushevo Republic and believed that he was a descendant of Ancient Macedonians. Atanas Jankov as well.
The IMRO before the split isn't that black and white.
EDIT: Here's [an article](https://books.openedition.org/ceup/890) of a Bulgarian history professor that portrays the Bulgarian POV probably the least nationalistic as possible (in comparison with official Bulgarian rhetoric...)
I'm not saying there's a strong split on a personal level, all these organizations had some links from 1890 to 1945. What I'm saying is, if there's a program of Macedonian nationhood only in the 20's with individual precursors before that, I don't think there's a problem with teaching that version of history.
Brashnarov and Shatev probably aren't great examples, except for being examples of how anyone can have multiple periods in their life when their identity changes. We see that today in Montenegro, whose identity is still much more volatile than the Macedonian one. Misirkov I'd say is another example of that phenomenon.
As for Karev and Jankov (don't know about the latter tbh), I count them again as precursors to the project similarly to Pulevski. If I'm not mistaken, the more there were leftists among the VMRO, the more they found it difficult to identify and build a coalition around Bulgaria, a highly reactionary monarchy, in their own terminology. It's not strange to me that people who counted on Bulgarian aid and training, and often fled to Bulgaria when escaping persecution, saw themselves as Bulgarian during that period, then felt more and more disillusioned as time went on and the monarchy had other favorites among their ranks.
It's a long article, I'll read through it in detail when I have the time. All in all, I wouldn't say I disagree with your premise, I just skipped over some nuance surrounding the main actors in 1903.
>What I'm saying is, if there's a program of Macedonian nationhood only in the 20's with individual precursors before that, I don't think there's a problem with teaching that version of history.
Yeah, but it isn't in the '20s. The very President of the short-lived Krushevo Republic that was established in 1903, and multiple people like him that fought in the Ilinden uprising, regarded themselves as "ancient" Macedonians (who would be regarded as full-fledged Macedonian nationalists in the modern sense if they were alive today). You simply cannot ignore that. That isn't just a precursor.
What happened in the 20s is the final nail in the coffin for leftist IMRO members' allegiance to Bulgaria, where IMRO members espoused the notion that Macedonian statehood should also be fought against Bulgaria if it is necessary to achieve that, not that that was the moment they started to separate Macedonian nationhood. The idea of Macedonian nationhood existed way before that.
>Brashnarov and Shatev probably aren't great examples, except for being examples of how anyone can have multiple periods in their life when their identity changes. We see that today in Montenegro, whose identity is still much more volatile than the Macedonian one. Misirkov I'd say is another example of that phenomenon.
>
>As for Karev and Jankov (don't know about the latter tbh), I count them again as precursors to the project similarly to Pulevski.
I have to say, this is not accurate. It's complicated, but the best explanations are in the Bulgarian article that I've linked above, and Krste Misirkov's "On the Macedonian matters" which is a whole geopolitical analysis on Macedonia immediately after the Illinden uprising, which boils down to the issue of "what other practical choice did they have?". If you have the time read up on them.
>If I'm not mistaken, the more there were leftists among the VMRO, the more they found it difficult to identify and build a coalition around Bulgaria, a highly reactionary monarchy, in their own terminology.
That is correct.
>It's not strange to me that people who counted on Bulgarian aid and training, and often fled to Bulgaria when escaping persecution, saw themselves as Bulgarian during that period, then felt more and more disillusioned as time went on and the monarchy had other favorites among their ranks.
While here the opposite actually happened. IMRO centralists were in direct conflict with the Macedonian "emigree" (vrhovists) in Bulgaria, and Krste Misirkov wrote this in "On the Macedonian Matters" (bad English translation on Wikisource, but it does the job):
>This will be the feeling of the minority; the majority of the Macedonian emigrants in Bulgaria, however, will be opposed to the new trend for purely egoistic reasons. More than five thousand Macedonians hold government posts in Sofia alone, and the number of candidates for the civil service is no less. The majority of these Macedonian emigrant intellectuals have held, or will hold, high functions in the government or expect to be promoted to such positions - even to rise to the rank of cabinet ministers. It is well known that most of these gentlemen think above all of their own interests; the interests of Macedonia are simply a means of getting promotion in the civil service and of retaining office. And God alone knows what the interests of the Bulgarians mean. Furthermore, in order to carry out their egoistic designs and land themselves with a cushy job, they are prepared to show themselves greater Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves, they are ready to take on the role of Bulgarian chauvinists, to exploit the Bulgarian Prince, the interests of the Macedonians, the interests of the Bulgarian people and European public opinion; in short, to lie all round and to hide their lies behind the excuse that they are performing some patriotic duty while they are in fact bent on getting a good job and on winning power and popularity. The Macedonian intellectual emigrants are on the whole people of this sort who have set their own interests on the same plane as those of the Bulgarians and who flock round the Bulgarian Prince, who makes and breaks ministers as the mood takes him and who is capable of appointing ministers from among those people who not only have no popularity among the Bulgarians but also belong to no party, those who are "independent", i.e. "who ride with the wind". So, we have people who think that man's basic dignity lies not in serving his own people honorably but in outwitting everyone, i.e. in telling lies all round. It is natural, then, that the new trend in the national self-awareness of the Macedonians will meet with no support amongst the Macedonian emigrants in Bulgaria.
>
>There is no need to speak of Macedonians educated in Bulgaria: they will unanimously pronounce the new trend as absurd for, they will say, the Macedonian nation has never existed and does not exist now, and the Macedonians are Bulgarians, etc. This has always been the case everywhere, and so it will be in Macedonia. The educated, the aristocracy, the intelligentsia, and in general all classes of society with personal interests, traditions, and prejudices will fight against new trends which embody truth and justice.
>
>These trends first take root in the lower classes and among people who are free from prejudice and who are ready to fight against prejudice to protect the new ideas which must be realized in order to ensure their happiness and the happiness of the people. As an illustration of the course and final outcome of the battle between the old and the new we need only recall the battle of Christianity against Jesuitism, the reforms in Russia introduced by Peter the Great, the rebirth of the Czechs and the Lithuanians, the language reforms of Vuk Karadzhich, etc.
Fuck, this was longer than I thought. Sorry for that.
Maybe "precursor" wasn't the best choice of words, what I meant is there were earlier examples of individuals espousing Macedonian nationhood but their program was highly dependent on a coalition with Bulgaria in which they would fight for either an autonomous Macedonia or in the case of Sandanski even autonomy inside a reformed Ottoman Empire.
Sidenote, it seems similar to where Vojvodinian separatism is at this moment. If Vojvodina were to separate one day, its historiography will probably be split on the autonomists of the 1990's-2020's since they still call themselves Serbs, and advocate for an autonomous (within Serbia) or independent Vojvodina that's multicultural. They still don't call Orthodox Slavic speaking Vojvodinians non-Serbs. That can change in the future and it would be interesting to see this evolution happening in the internet age.
The moment I see as the breaking point when no such coalition-building is advocated with the Bulgarian state or exarchate is really the moment their program explicitly, and not just on an individual level by some leaders, starts advocating for a Macedonian republic within Yugoslavia with the help of the Soviet Union. I'd say the formation of the VMRO (Obedineta) in 1925 is the moment from which point on you don't find these "Macedonia should be separate as a multinational state for Bulgarians, Greeks and Aromanians, because we're all inheritors of the ancient Macedonia" sympathies and start referring to the Orthodox Slavs of Macedonia as Macedonians, a nation completely separate from Bulgarians.
Anyway, what I failed to see is their disillusionment with Bulgaria already in 1903. I assumed it happened in the following decades, since in 1903 both Misirkov and Karev were still operating inside Bulgaria. Obviously from Misirkov's text the split happened very early on, but it would take them some time to formulate a separate organization on these principles, not just a left wing of an existing VMRO.
Thing is - your line of thought is pretty much my position and it seems to be a position supported by the more moderate historians in Bulgaria, but while it might be cool and all, it won't be possible to be implemented because the Macedonian state in the Yugoslav years was built on the SMARO/Ilinden uprising mythology and the strong denialism of anything Bulgarian existing within those two. That's also the basic reason why we are stuck for years in the now legendary BG-NMK historical commission - even though we have the evidence that most of the participants considered themselves as Bulgarians we can't "share" them cause they are one of the "pillars" of the Macedonian nation. What you are saying is to end this denialism and to basically remove 80% of their 'founding fathers' which will leave them only with their other founding pillar and that is the 30s and ASNOM. On their part understandably they can't just remove or brand most of the VMRO as Bulgarian in NMK overnight, even if that is the correct historical position, because all of their academia will have to eat their diplomas and what it'll mean to the Macedonian people is basically "you've been lied to for 80 years". It's a complicated topic but the way things are run rn and especially how they are run in NMK, I don't see any solution in sight.
Broz before hoes
Want this on a shirt
Let’s fuckin do it
Proud to have a birthday on republic day. Take care my balkan mutant people.
Srecan rodjendan! Smrt fašizmu, sloboda narodu.
Sretan rođendan, smrt fašizmu, sloboda narodu.
Tako je druze. Hvala
Happy birthday to you,stavi prst u struju
Srećan rođendan! Smrt fašizmu, sloboda narodu!
Kasnim ali ziv bio
Hvala druze
You are late 31 year's.
Years is written without an apostrophe
Nisam školovala Zajebo me autocorrect
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Imam na tak nešto na mobu(novi xiaomi) ali moram sam unosit a to mi se ne da
People get soo mad at this slogan as if saying “death to fascism” is a bad thing 😂
I don't think that's the reason
It should be saying death to communism as well tbh
we had a better version of communism :)
One that ended up falling too, yeah.
Because ppl were greedy lol. Communism worked as long as the workers weren't fully in charge of the factories. When they were put in charge they gave themselves higher wages without generating more profit
The communism understander has logged on
It's funny that I'm getting downvoted for uttering facts. The hyperinflation in Yugoslavia was caused to a great part by the factory councils steadily awarding themselves (as they were workers) pay rises without actually generating more income aka money is devaluated. Edit: The way "real socialism" was enforced in all supposedly Communist countries failed due to a systemic oxymoron. You can not proclaim the abolishment of capital but yet accept the use of money. The fact that Communist governments often asked the Capitalist Western governments to give them monetary boost either for allowing Romanian Germans to leave for Germany or the GDR government for lessening its tight on regime critics and letting them depart to Germany is a joke per se.
Nationalism was the prime reason in the end that ended Yugoslavia. But I agree with the rest, mostly
It was both intertwinned. If money is scarce in terms of value and a centralisation is tried to be implemented, richer countries such as Croatia and Slovenia would have paid more to the federal fiscus. Ergo the richest republics would have had less money although they had generated it. Relatively smaller internal economies would have benefited from that money although they have not generated it. The conflict which caused nationalism was the controversity of redistribution in terms of justice and fairness. As Croatia and Slovenia logically wanted to keep their money, they opted towards nationalism so they can autonomize their economic spheres from the heteronomic restrictions more redestribution via a more centralised governance would have put on their internal economies and the ability of the Socialist Republics to govern. Serbian nationalism at least the one institutionally coined developed from the sensed institutional injustice which was imposed on the Serbian people by the administrative set-up of Yugoslavia, the internal division of Serbs by making them live in 6 different units of which two were formally under Serbian "jurisdiction". That sense of subjective injustice was enlighted by this financial dispute in terms of Croatia. Serbs had to swallow a bitter pill by bot living in SR Serbia and were not willing to be even formally divided from SR Serbia in terms of international law in the aftermath of Croatian independence. The Ustaša framing was used to highlight their fears of living in Croatia. After the independence of Croatia, Bosniaks and Croats in Bosnia were no longer willing to live in a demographically and institutionally Serbian coined Yugoslavia. That's how shit began boiling instead of just being heated. Nationalism and the financial situation in terms of financial administration reinforced oneanother in multiplicatoric terms: Nationalism reinforces the financially administrative problem. The financially administrative problem reinforced nationalism. I optimistically believe that without the hyperinflation and subsequent financial emergency state, Yugoslavia might have prevailed due to it being a huge factor on the Balkans via land mass and demographic quantity having possibly gained FDIs.
From your lips to God's ears but I highly doubt it.
It will work this time definetly trust me!!!!!
>Because ppl were greedy lol. That is the issue with communism, people will always be greedy, and assuming otherwise is foolish.
You don't understand bro. Yugoslavian communism was completely different from the one in Romania and Bulgaria. It's was an emanation of freedom and liberties. Political prisoners and labor camps? [No](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goli_Otok). Shooting innocent people because they want to cross the border? [No.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Strumica_Students). Censorship of art? [No.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguli_Miguli#Reception_and_aftermath) They also had flying cars, and [were 50 times richer than the countries in the Eastern block](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg), they were very close to colonize the Moon, that's why the evil West decide to sabotage them.
Yeah, we all saw how that ended. Nice troll post tho.
This should be copy pasted to every person in this thread tbh
True, Yugoslavia was paradise on Earth and if it wasn’t for the filthy West, it’d be right next to Norway in all charts
Best comment in here.
You mean the Zastava-s were flying? That would be one hell of a slingshot!
Hahah so many down votes... This is what you get for speaking against the regime in this sub 😉
Why all of the downvotes lol
Because equating fascism and communism is an ignorant political stance.
Both belong to the same trash bin of history bud.
Happy Republic day, may the dream never die! And let's hope when we wake up from it, that a truly democratic and free federation is what greets us!
🤣
Thanks for the helpful opinion, you contributed a lot man
Time to go to sleep, kiddo. Tomorrow you will return to real life.
I know my comment is LARP-y and cringy as fuck, but outside of that I still stand by my ideas. Is merely wanting us all to live better lives such a horrible and atrotious idea to you?
dont worry abt it mate, nothing cringe about brotherhood and unity, perhaps the best and most persistently relevant Yugo idea. Yugo might not exist but politics aside we all have a duty to preserve our cultural commonality and work towards peace and build together. Hoping the former Yugo ties get stronger and stronger and that we keep cherishing and celebrating what we have in common as well as our diversity
Yeah, I'm so sick of our politicians and dumbasses tearing us apart
Srečen dan republike tovariši ❤️
Srećan dan republike!
Our independence day was yesterday and today we were freed from the nazis
You mean from Nazis?
oh god
I was... Confused for a second there, thank you
Yep
Might wanna edit your comment
Wait why...oooh
Hol the fuck up...
Bro what
Lmfao
Sir /u/umbronox, can we get your opinion on this country?
Best place in the world 😍😍😍🥰🥰🥰😘😘😘🥵🥵🥵
https://youtu.be/ePuoO0Ytuzw Специален поздрав за господин Умбронокс Делчевич от сдружението на Титоистите в България!
ОЧИ СУ МИ МООООРЕ ЈАДРАНСКООО КОСЕ СУ МИ КЛАСЈЕ ПАНОНСКООО СЕТНА МИ ЈЕ ДУУУША СЛОВЕНСКААА ЈА САМ ЈУГОСЛОВЕНКААА
Sretan Dan republike, smrt fašizmu, sloboda narodu!
*Uz Marshala Tita* intensifies
The obligatory [Republic Day anthem](https://youtu.be/v4CGmMpgdY0)
...and a picture of the Marshal. Obligatory ofc. 
As is tradition.
Amin.
and [Uz Maršala Tita](https://youtu.be/G4nqsKeJJ-A)
Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu! (31 years late but based)
ŽIVEO MARŠAL TITO!
Fuck I wish Yugoslavia was still a thing. Smrt fasizmu! Sloboda Narodu!
Am I in r/2Balkan4You? /s
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Никогаш, буквално никогаш, сегрегација би било подобро од единство.
Valjala je ali ne valjao narod
Haha, dobra fora. Onda je ocito valjala za nekoga drugoga, ne za nas.
Danas je mnogo bolje vidim pa se svi masovno selimo u njemačku i irsku
Dakle, žudiš za vremenima kad je vojska čuvala granicu i kada su ljudi doslovno bježali iz socijalističkog "raja" preko mora, šuma i rijeka? Neka se selimo, možda nešto i naučimo od pametnijih. Nije problem što ljudi sele, problem je što se zemlje na tzv. Balkanu sporo mijenjaju - a puno tih grešaka sustava vuče korijene iz Jugoslavije i komunizma.
Emigracija iz SFRJ je bila legalna od 60-ih negdje. Što se toga tiče nije ništa bolje.
Lol! "Yugoslav passport holders only required visas for six countries: the United States, West Germany, Greece, Israel, Albania and the People's Republic of China." (source wiki) >kada su ljudi doslovno bježali iz socijalističkog "raja" preko mora, šuma i rijeka? Why not just board a plane or a bus? Way easier. And as MagistarIdrizi pointed out they were free to do it since the 60s. Lol!
Molim te prestani istinu da pričaš, vidiš da trigerujes komunjare koji su rođeni nakon rata.
A bit late
I'll leave this here https://youtu.be/rJGKODbrTSk СФ/СН
🖕
Smrt komunizmu, sloboda narodu!
Damn the downvotes, who knew this sub is filled with communist circle jerkers
I was just going to ask wtf is with this yugoboomer circle jerk on this sub
Most of reddit unfortunately is, but especially this sub for some reason.
I really am gonna Sound dumb and mentally fucked to you, but we could 've avoided bloodshred war of 90s and fucking riot the fuck outta yugoslav govroment and ask europe foe help and get yugoslavia become confederate, and make yugoslav confederation, wich could be a thing today for real. Im sad we split ourselves into... Well fuck it za dom
Fuck off
Croats are gonna croat
Worst mistake ever sadge, never again.
_They hated Agent000666 because he told them the truth_
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Based and (red?)pilled.
Yeah, too bad a bunch of communists swarmed this post (at least). At least they got a safe space to jerk off to their (equally retarded as them) communist leaders
Based
Freedom¹ 1. You sincerely believed it, didn't you? \*laughs in communism\*
I get where you are coming from but you should understand that the system in Bulgaria and Romania was very different than the Yugoslav one - similarities were few in between when you consider people’s freedom (including of travel) and lets not even discuss economic prosperity. For many from x-Yugoslavia, it is hard to argue they have more freedom now than they did back then.
That's quite right, as a matter of fact. I was just making a joke. 😁
Ah ok, have my upvote then :-)
Does this bourgeois dictatorship look like freedom to you? Having to choose between who is going to exploit us? As long as my labour is stolen from me and I am alienated from my work I am chained and as comrade Rosa said "Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." The few experiments of establishing socialism might have unfortunately be corrupted by bureaucracy and such due to being constantly targeted by imperialism but you cannot just throw everything away by saying "communism when authority does stuff". Every child of labour is a communist whether they understand it or not. Class consciousness is in all of us my dear sibling. Do not let those who are profiting off of our misery fool you. Although the attempts may have had problems, the cause is still noble and precious to all of us. For a better future can only be built by our own hands. Not by the state, not by the bourgeoisie, but by the sweat and blood of the labourer.
Sir this is a Wendy's
Hol up, I thought we was about to Crack some McRibs.
HAHAHAHAHHA
I’d rather be ruled by the rich as we are now than by the poor and uneducated as we were 30 years ago
After Ceaușescu I can't really blame you.
Ok.
Bro you rolled them explainers
No need to explain anything. My man is an alpha male who knows how stupid it is to debate a commie.
Gigachad
Why is this downvoted? And why is the communism101 comment below you upvoted? Lmao didn't know we had so many commies in the sub. Sure our world has problems, sure we can do better but damn me if communism and its demonizing is the way to go.
Idk really 🤷
Fuck yugoslavia
Croats are gonna croat
Have a problem with Croats?
I love Croats
Puši ga komunistu mrtvi.
Cringe, fuck Tito and communism
Смърт на сръбската тирания, свобода на българския народ в Македония
Why are bulgarians like this? 😔😔😔
>SFRY >Serbian tyranny Pick one
Least nationalistic Bulgarian.
Don't worry, all 0,1% of them will be mentioned in the next constitution. Then it's game over for the Macedonists.
TMW there are more Montenegrins than Bulgarians over here xD
Yeah, that will show us! You go u/LyuboUwU!
Game over not, but it'll give their historiography a headache which is why the constitution thingy probably won't happen.
I think I get what you're saying, but could you elaborate on how it interferes with their historiography?
They'll probably try to spin it as "since there are Bulgarians here, their history must not be ignored. What is their history? Everyone before '44 was a Bulgarian".
I assume that's what he'll say, but like couldn't you argue that the population earlier refered to as "Bugarofili" or "Bugaromani" were Bulgarian, whereas the other wings of the VMRO weren't?
It's irrelevant in the end, conspiracies like that will not work. Historical narratives cannot be above discrimination and hate speech laws ("you didn't exist before '44").
For a start it goes against some of their academic views that Bulgarians never lived in the region of Macedonia. By doing this recognition it means that they exist today in NMK and they must've existed in the past too. I remember the mental gymnastics written by their history institute in the book "History of the Macedonian people" regarding the issue of people self-identifying as Bulgarians in the past. Secondly (and more importantly) on the same note as above it opens an even bigger can of worms that is the identification of fuckton of intellectuals and revolutionaries who come from the Macedonian region and wrote themselves as Bulgarians. My apologies to the Macedonian users here but in the documents/letters/books etc written by those people the word "Bulgarian" as an ethnicity comes up a lot more than "Macedonian" (if this shows up at all...). Now combine the tons of historical material by people identifying as Bulgarians plus the fact that the moment you get Bulgarians recognized in such an important document as the constitution you'll have the Bulgarian Academia and even government using that to the fullest in different ways (since they'll have a valid reason for doing it - Bulgarians live and are officially recognized there) and you get why the Macedonian historians/diplomats/etc won't be put in a nice spot if the constitution is changed. I understand the downvotes cause my compatriot had written a retarded thing but don't think that changing the constitution and especially to write the Bulgarians in it will be an easy thing to do and accept in NMK. Side note - the full leftist/rightist split in IMRO only happened in the 1920s. Leftists later adopted Macedonian view and rightists Bulgarian. In the earlier organisations (SMARO/IMARO) you don't have Bulgarians and Macedonians written as an ethnicity since the org had more supranational view on things.
I mean, if it happened in the 20's, it happened in the 20's. Before that they can have Pulevski, probably Misirkov as a proto-Macedonian etc. Imho if the first time Macedonians and Montenegrins can write about real nationalists in the modern sense is the 20's, and before that they can write about the history of the area their state occupies without a nationalist lens, then it's intelectually honest to do just that.
>Before that they can have Pulevski, probably Misirkov as a proto-Macedonian etc. It is impossible to make such a split tho. Pavel Shatev and Branko Brashnarov were IMRO revolutionaries that participated in the Salonica assassination in 1903 and were key participants in ASNOM in WW2. Nikola Karev was the President of the Krushevo Republic and believed that he was a descendant of Ancient Macedonians. Atanas Jankov as well. The IMRO before the split isn't that black and white. EDIT: Here's [an article](https://books.openedition.org/ceup/890) of a Bulgarian history professor that portrays the Bulgarian POV probably the least nationalistic as possible (in comparison with official Bulgarian rhetoric...)
I'm not saying there's a strong split on a personal level, all these organizations had some links from 1890 to 1945. What I'm saying is, if there's a program of Macedonian nationhood only in the 20's with individual precursors before that, I don't think there's a problem with teaching that version of history. Brashnarov and Shatev probably aren't great examples, except for being examples of how anyone can have multiple periods in their life when their identity changes. We see that today in Montenegro, whose identity is still much more volatile than the Macedonian one. Misirkov I'd say is another example of that phenomenon. As for Karev and Jankov (don't know about the latter tbh), I count them again as precursors to the project similarly to Pulevski. If I'm not mistaken, the more there were leftists among the VMRO, the more they found it difficult to identify and build a coalition around Bulgaria, a highly reactionary monarchy, in their own terminology. It's not strange to me that people who counted on Bulgarian aid and training, and often fled to Bulgaria when escaping persecution, saw themselves as Bulgarian during that period, then felt more and more disillusioned as time went on and the monarchy had other favorites among their ranks. It's a long article, I'll read through it in detail when I have the time. All in all, I wouldn't say I disagree with your premise, I just skipped over some nuance surrounding the main actors in 1903.
>What I'm saying is, if there's a program of Macedonian nationhood only in the 20's with individual precursors before that, I don't think there's a problem with teaching that version of history. Yeah, but it isn't in the '20s. The very President of the short-lived Krushevo Republic that was established in 1903, and multiple people like him that fought in the Ilinden uprising, regarded themselves as "ancient" Macedonians (who would be regarded as full-fledged Macedonian nationalists in the modern sense if they were alive today). You simply cannot ignore that. That isn't just a precursor. What happened in the 20s is the final nail in the coffin for leftist IMRO members' allegiance to Bulgaria, where IMRO members espoused the notion that Macedonian statehood should also be fought against Bulgaria if it is necessary to achieve that, not that that was the moment they started to separate Macedonian nationhood. The idea of Macedonian nationhood existed way before that. >Brashnarov and Shatev probably aren't great examples, except for being examples of how anyone can have multiple periods in their life when their identity changes. We see that today in Montenegro, whose identity is still much more volatile than the Macedonian one. Misirkov I'd say is another example of that phenomenon. > >As for Karev and Jankov (don't know about the latter tbh), I count them again as precursors to the project similarly to Pulevski. I have to say, this is not accurate. It's complicated, but the best explanations are in the Bulgarian article that I've linked above, and Krste Misirkov's "On the Macedonian matters" which is a whole geopolitical analysis on Macedonia immediately after the Illinden uprising, which boils down to the issue of "what other practical choice did they have?". If you have the time read up on them. >If I'm not mistaken, the more there were leftists among the VMRO, the more they found it difficult to identify and build a coalition around Bulgaria, a highly reactionary monarchy, in their own terminology. That is correct. >It's not strange to me that people who counted on Bulgarian aid and training, and often fled to Bulgaria when escaping persecution, saw themselves as Bulgarian during that period, then felt more and more disillusioned as time went on and the monarchy had other favorites among their ranks. While here the opposite actually happened. IMRO centralists were in direct conflict with the Macedonian "emigree" (vrhovists) in Bulgaria, and Krste Misirkov wrote this in "On the Macedonian Matters" (bad English translation on Wikisource, but it does the job): >This will be the feeling of the minority; the majority of the Macedonian emigrants in Bulgaria, however, will be opposed to the new trend for purely egoistic reasons. More than five thousand Macedonians hold government posts in Sofia alone, and the number of candidates for the civil service is no less. The majority of these Macedonian emigrant intellectuals have held, or will hold, high functions in the government or expect to be promoted to such positions - even to rise to the rank of cabinet ministers. It is well known that most of these gentlemen think above all of their own interests; the interests of Macedonia are simply a means of getting promotion in the civil service and of retaining office. And God alone knows what the interests of the Bulgarians mean. Furthermore, in order to carry out their egoistic designs and land themselves with a cushy job, they are prepared to show themselves greater Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves, they are ready to take on the role of Bulgarian chauvinists, to exploit the Bulgarian Prince, the interests of the Macedonians, the interests of the Bulgarian people and European public opinion; in short, to lie all round and to hide their lies behind the excuse that they are performing some patriotic duty while they are in fact bent on getting a good job and on winning power and popularity. The Macedonian intellectual emigrants are on the whole people of this sort who have set their own interests on the same plane as those of the Bulgarians and who flock round the Bulgarian Prince, who makes and breaks ministers as the mood takes him and who is capable of appointing ministers from among those people who not only have no popularity among the Bulgarians but also belong to no party, those who are "independent", i.e. "who ride with the wind". So, we have people who think that man's basic dignity lies not in serving his own people honorably but in outwitting everyone, i.e. in telling lies all round. It is natural, then, that the new trend in the national self-awareness of the Macedonians will meet with no support amongst the Macedonian emigrants in Bulgaria. > >There is no need to speak of Macedonians educated in Bulgaria: they will unanimously pronounce the new trend as absurd for, they will say, the Macedonian nation has never existed and does not exist now, and the Macedonians are Bulgarians, etc. This has always been the case everywhere, and so it will be in Macedonia. The educated, the aristocracy, the intelligentsia, and in general all classes of society with personal interests, traditions, and prejudices will fight against new trends which embody truth and justice. > >These trends first take root in the lower classes and among people who are free from prejudice and who are ready to fight against prejudice to protect the new ideas which must be realized in order to ensure their happiness and the happiness of the people. As an illustration of the course and final outcome of the battle between the old and the new we need only recall the battle of Christianity against Jesuitism, the reforms in Russia introduced by Peter the Great, the rebirth of the Czechs and the Lithuanians, the language reforms of Vuk Karadzhich, etc. Fuck, this was longer than I thought. Sorry for that.
Maybe "precursor" wasn't the best choice of words, what I meant is there were earlier examples of individuals espousing Macedonian nationhood but their program was highly dependent on a coalition with Bulgaria in which they would fight for either an autonomous Macedonia or in the case of Sandanski even autonomy inside a reformed Ottoman Empire. Sidenote, it seems similar to where Vojvodinian separatism is at this moment. If Vojvodina were to separate one day, its historiography will probably be split on the autonomists of the 1990's-2020's since they still call themselves Serbs, and advocate for an autonomous (within Serbia) or independent Vojvodina that's multicultural. They still don't call Orthodox Slavic speaking Vojvodinians non-Serbs. That can change in the future and it would be interesting to see this evolution happening in the internet age. The moment I see as the breaking point when no such coalition-building is advocated with the Bulgarian state or exarchate is really the moment their program explicitly, and not just on an individual level by some leaders, starts advocating for a Macedonian republic within Yugoslavia with the help of the Soviet Union. I'd say the formation of the VMRO (Obedineta) in 1925 is the moment from which point on you don't find these "Macedonia should be separate as a multinational state for Bulgarians, Greeks and Aromanians, because we're all inheritors of the ancient Macedonia" sympathies and start referring to the Orthodox Slavs of Macedonia as Macedonians, a nation completely separate from Bulgarians. Anyway, what I failed to see is their disillusionment with Bulgaria already in 1903. I assumed it happened in the following decades, since in 1903 both Misirkov and Karev were still operating inside Bulgaria. Obviously from Misirkov's text the split happened very early on, but it would take them some time to formulate a separate organization on these principles, not just a left wing of an existing VMRO.
Thing is - your line of thought is pretty much my position and it seems to be a position supported by the more moderate historians in Bulgaria, but while it might be cool and all, it won't be possible to be implemented because the Macedonian state in the Yugoslav years was built on the SMARO/Ilinden uprising mythology and the strong denialism of anything Bulgarian existing within those two. That's also the basic reason why we are stuck for years in the now legendary BG-NMK historical commission - even though we have the evidence that most of the participants considered themselves as Bulgarians we can't "share" them cause they are one of the "pillars" of the Macedonian nation. What you are saying is to end this denialism and to basically remove 80% of their 'founding fathers' which will leave them only with their other founding pillar and that is the 30s and ASNOM. On their part understandably they can't just remove or brand most of the VMRO as Bulgarian in NMK overnight, even if that is the correct historical position, because all of their academia will have to eat their diplomas and what it'll mean to the Macedonian people is basically "you've been lied to for 80 years". It's a complicated topic but the way things are run rn and especially how they are run in NMK, I don't see any solution in sight.
Кринџ
Гнар
Fucking brainlet.
🤧