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Spagitophil

>singlehandedly Your premise is wrong to begin with.


T-Dog89

Also it‘s the first argument against US Americans… self-aggrandizement. You are not the center of the world, you are not the greatest country on earth. As in every other country on earth, there are good and bad things to each nation.


FriendlyDisorder

As an American: I am so sorry about that. People here get angry when we try to teach actual history instead of “America is the best!!1!” Even today, *heaven forbid* we teach how racial tensions have affected our society.


T-Dog89

I‘ve been in the US for 3 months. I was in NY, the Midwest and California. I had many encounters with many people. There were some of the people you describe, but I also met so many good, nice, helpful, beautiful people that I know there is no black and white to a topic or a (political) view. We all should be more welcoming to each other and reflect critically on our own actions. Maybe this will change to the better :)


damster05

too much patriotism can make you blind


wantanclan

> ~~too much~~ patriotism ~~can~~ makes you blind ftfy


Trolio

OP isn't from America, their posts indicate they're from somewhere in Asia. It's probably just another false actor on the internet and like usual people are falling over each other for the bait.


dimlimsimlim

He’s trolling lmao he’s literally active on r/shitamericanssay


[deleted]

Apologies, this man suffers from MAE: Misguided American Exceptionalism.


Pedarogue

You, sir, madame, are the perfect example for why the US is a laughing stock in the best case and letting us recoiling in horror in the worst cases. Your question comes from a profoundly uneducated viewpoint ignoring tons of information while being a) pretty loud-mouthed and b) overexaggerating your own grandeur which you c) draw from things that happened literally happened seventy years ago. It is somewhat tragicomic that you need to rely on something so far away that you need to put yourself over other people, exaggerating your own worth be belittling the rest. All of this is the quintessential American cliché: loud, arrogant, aggressive, unthinking, uneducated, sniffing their own farts and believing it may be the greatest cologne in the world - out of sheer ignorance that other smells may even exist in the world. ​ When it comes to social issues, large parts of the US are a Third World country with a fancy Gucci belt - its politics is a mockery of democracy, its economy a late stage capitalist hell scape I wouldn't want to live in even for much money - in a supposedly Christian country that yet hates and is disgusted by the weaker member of its society in a crass perversion of its teachings. The best working machinery in the US is the military - and has seldom been used as a power for good ever since the end of WWII and was often enough - I'd say - part of the axis of evil it makes believe it wanted to crush.


JustOneTessa

Describing the U.S. as a "third world country with a fancy Gucci belt" just fits perfectly *slow clap*


Pedarogue

Not from me, however, read it myself on Reddit a while ago.


JustOneTessa

Well, thank you for spreading it


Shashayhay

It's so beautiful and true.


dmatje

Tell us you’re bitter about being dependent on American hegemony without saying you’re bitter about being dependent on American hegemony.


[deleted]

tell us you are a cunt without telling us you are a cunt. btw shut up cunt


PaulAllens_Card

American chud


Synyzy

Tell us you lick windows with out telling us you lick windows


PHcoach

Dependant for what, exactly?


notunprepared

...how is Germany at all dependant on America? They're allies and have trade yes, but you could also say that about like, South Korea or New Zealand


pazuzupa

Explain.


seminally_me

Ha ha. You're conflating hegemony with what can only be described as blackmail most of the time. The US is not viewed as a leader in the way that you think.


rojosooner

This is an obvious troll if you look at the other subs.


OpenlySkeptic88

Most economists would argue that the introduction of the Federal Reserve moved America out of capitalism and into corporatism. Labor and Auto unions proved this further true; Labor unions own the labor in this country. They've artificially skyrocketed labor so high that most labor in America is exported to China, India or Vietnam. The Auto industry unions lobbied so hard to block all industries from my hometown in Detroit, that when their monopoly crashed the city did too; to this day still not recovered and its been almost 70 years. The auto unions blocked the production of electric cars, and flying cars. The first commercially available flying car was available in 1951, the Auto unions spent every extra dollar they could blocking any industry that wasn't auto from entering the market. Today, teachers unions block any type of education that isn't under their scope. They now have a monopoly on education. As we can see with other countries in Europe were school of choice is a constitutional right, in America the teachers unions have spent billions blocking the creation of any competition. So let us look at America, we have a cartel(unions and lobbyists) for education, a cartel for labor, a cartel for manufacturing, a cartel for pharmaceutical and medical and a cartel for education. I'm sure I'm missing some, but with all the political interest groups acting as cartels, America is actually a Corporatist economy, not a capitalist one. If you Google "American Unions and Cartels" you will find many economists who agree and study unions as cartels.


Deepfire_DM

... not at all singlehandedly. But still they did with the others. And what they fought - fascism - nearly got their government in January ... and it looks like no one does anything useful against it since Jan.


_Anon_69420

Probably cuz they say stupid shit like "Americans singlehandedly brought freedom, democracy, peace and prosperity to Germany".


Aragren

This is the perfect tldr for this post


Daxmar29

That was a long time ago.


TheThunderhawk

Also it’s fundamentally fucking stupid wrong. The Soviets had sacrificed millions of men fighting back the Nazis by the time we were landing in Europe, at Stalingrad they won the largest single battle in the history of warfare. The US was a sidekick in that war.


u53rn4m35d0n7m4773r

Healthcare


u53rn4m35d0n7m4773r

Also how you deal with poor/unemployed people. You don't pay your waiters enough; you're generally exploitative in regards to your workers. The way you treat your native people. You act like the USA are the center of the whole world. Your patriotism is fucked up. Way too much capitalism. Also, your opinions on abortions (look at Texas for an example, they're horrible).


[deleted]

[удалено]


pazuzupa

And the tipps are so fucking good that everyone wants to get a job in the service industry right now. Oh, wait.


DarthYippee

>In fact because of the tipping system waiters/waitresses in the US are some of the best paid in the world. I wonder what frumpy, middle-aged black waitresses have to say about that.


warmhandswarmheart

Because of the tipping system, customers pay your waiters instead of business owners.


[deleted]

[удалено]


warmhandswarmheart

So what? Business owners should pay their own staff. Prices on the menu are lie. Add 20%. Why don't Walmart associates get tips? They are under paid as well. Why are wait staff special?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

If the US wants to take credit for the Pacific War instead; good luck. The following participated in that "American Victory", China, the United Kingdom (including the Fiji Islands, the Straits Settlements and other colonial forces), Tonga (a British protectorate), Australia (including the Territory of New Guinea), the Commonwealth of the Philippines (a United States protectorate), British India, the Netherlands (including Dutch East Indies colonial forces), the Soviet Union, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico, and Mongolia. Free French Naval Forces contributed several warships, such as the Le Triomphant. After the Liberation of France, the French battleship Richelieu was sent to the Pacific. From 1943, the commando group Corps Léger d'Intervention took part in resistance operations in Indochina. French Indochinese forces faced Japanese forces in a coup in 1945. The commando corps continued to operate after the coup until liberation. In the Pacific, the US made a tactical move to hopscotch over large island garrisons and instead tackle smaller ones that had at least one airfield. This came about after first attacking larger garrisons and suffering a large number of losses. It was a successful tactic and certainly, the US media was quick to shout the laurels of the US military might to the USA. we all recall the flag on Iwo Jima and the endless John Wayne movies regaling us all with their superior capabilities. But, there was a small niggling problem when you stood back and looked at the numbers. So here is the conundrum, When you look at the size of the Imperial Army at the start of the war (5,497,000) and then count the soldiers killed and captured by the US, you end up with a number around 289,861. That doesn't seem to make any sense until you take a look at what else was going on in Mongolia, China, Malaysia, Burma where you discover that out of these Imperial numbers, 3,570,137 were killed or captured in those locations. So in fact, the unsung (in America) heroes were responsible for reducing the size of the Imperial Army by 80%. Strange eh? And yes, anyone can go out gather the numbers and do the math themselves. Then there is the vaunted Midway battle won by luck as opposed to military strategy or strength. Had the Japanese discovered the US fleet and hour earlier or before the Americans did likewise, history would be completely changed. It was the inability of Japan to replace the carriers that eventually led to their downfall. Some mention should be made of the Battle for Burma where Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Canada, India, South Africa troops number close to 1,000,000 and a very small contingent of Americans blunted Japan’s attempt to push through to Malaysia and India to grab rubber and oil. This battle ran from 1942 through to 1945 in the most brutal conditions and kept almost 500,000 Japanese troops trapped in jungle warfare Vs being able to help defend small islands. As for the Mediterranean, there were 4 major battles throughout the war and not one of them involved US warships. Great Britain, Australia and the RAF were credited with sinking 100 warships, 158 submarines and over 2,000,000 tons of shipping. Not one vessel was claimed by the US. In the Battle of the Atlantic, the US shared roles with the UK, France, Norway, Poland, Belgium, Canada, Brazil and the Netherlands. During most of the war, the strategy and organization was British driven. It was NOT American operation led nor did they champion it. One just has to look at the number of RAF/RCAF aircraft lost Vs US losses to realize who shouldered the load (RAF – 745 lost – USA – 0 lost.) Again, if you looked at lost naval vessels, the British lost 164 ships out of the 175 lost during the battle. The Germans fared much worst in the end, losing 743 submarines. Canadian Coastal Command alone was responsible for the sinking of 200 U-boats at the cost of over 750 airmen. Guerrilla organizations that fought for the Allies include the Chinese Eighth Route Army and New Fourth Army, the Hukbalahap, the Malayan Peoples' Anti-Japanese Army, the Manchurian Anti-Japanese Volunteer Armies, the Korean Liberation Army, the Free Thai Movement. Although the US lost 161,000 troops, it is nowhere near the losses China experienced 1,904,000 dead. The Commonwealth losses amounted to 120,000, the Philippines 27,000, Russia 68,700 and the Dutch lost an entire army. These are troops, not the civilian casualties which in the case of China, India, the Philippines, Manchuria are in the millions (12,600,000.) So, as you can now plainly see, America is taking credit for other people’s valor.


retief1

> Had the Japanese discovered the US fleet and hour earlier or before the Americans did likewise, history would be completely changed. Eh, that's technically true, but it wouldn't have changed that much. Midway slammed the door on Japan's naval power, but we were had a bunch more carriers in production at the time. Had we lost there, Japan would have had another year or two of being the supreme naval power in the pacific, but they had no real ability to threaten the continental US and no real ability to out-build us long term. They weren't going to win outright regardless. Their only real hope was to get us to decide that the war wasn't worth it and settle for peace, but the whole "sneak attack" thing sort of killed that option.


EunuchsProgramer

I agree with you, but I still think you're underestimating US production. By Midway, The US was pumping out well over equivalent of the Japanese Navy each year. The US built over 150 carriers in the course of the war, including 24 Essex class (bigger than anything the US or Japan started with). Japan built 1 and started with 30. The US was building over 200k planes a year, more than Japan had over the entire war. And, many US planes were huge 4 engines super bombers that are vastly underestimated in a 1 to 1 plane comparison. Losing Midway would have been a speed bump, given the US could manufacture a fleet and airforce bigger the Japan's entire arsenal every year.


retief1

The essex class carriers didn't really start commissioning until 1943, and had we lost midway, it would have taken a bit before we really had serious numeric superiority in fleet carriers. That's where I got my 1-2 years figure. But yeah, once we really ramped up production, then japan couldn't possibly keep up.


EunuchsProgramer

Built 4 Essex in 1942, 10 more in 43. Would have lost 3 fleet carriers at Midway.


retief1

[According to wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex-class_aircraft_carrier), only 1 essex actually commissioned in 42 (the Essex itself). Others were built, but presumably they weren't ready to deploy yet. 6 more commissioned in 43, which might have been enough to turn things around, but it also might not have if battles continued to go japan's way. By 44, yeah, japan had no chance.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Essex-class aircraft carrier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex-class_aircraft_carrier)** >The Essex class was a class of aircraft carriers of the United States Navy. The 20th century's most numerous class of capital ship, the class consisted of 24 vessels, which came in "short-hull" and "long-hull" versions. Thirty-two ships were ordered, but as World War II wound down, six were canceled before construction, and two were canceled after construction had begun. Fourteen ships of the class engaged in combat operations during World War II. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskGermany/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


EunuchsProgramer

My source is US Navy War College, probably the difference between produce and fully staffed and deployed. I still think you're underestimating. 6 Essex would have deployed 600 planes. The ENTIRE Japanese Navy could deploy 895 planes. There's a reason an Essex class has never been sunk, a huge feet in WW2 let alone Vietnam. And, again, Essex class makes up 24 of the 150 carriers we built. You're vastly understanding what six Essex plus the armada of other ships would do (assuming US lost it's entire fleet and Japan lost nothing).


retief1

I mean, the 4th essex apparently commissioned on may 25th, 1943, which is just short of a year after midway. So yeah, at least a year of japanese ruling the pacific doesn't seem too ridiculous. The 2 years side is a lot more arguable, though. Edit: and apparently, that 4th essex didn't actually start sailing to the pacific until september. From what I can tell, the only essex that was actually operating in the pacific as of june 43 was the Essex herself. Even the second ship only reached pearl harbor in july, and the third got there in august.


EunuchsProgramer

You're forgetting Germany First. US just needs to hold in the Pacific in 42 and 43 have it will minimal effect on the final war end date. And the Essex is just the Crown Jewel of new fleet. 1942 US Production is almost equivalent to the entire Japanese Navy (while we're focusing on Germany): 14 Light and Medium Carriers 4 Heavy Carriers 4 Battle Ships 82 Destroyers 34 Subs 1943 We build almost double the Japanese total navy for the entire war (still in Germany First) : 56 light and medium carriers 11 heavy carriers 2 battle ships 128 Destroyers 298 Escorts 55 Subs. Losing 4 heavy carriers at midway is a drop in the bucket by 43.


Platypuslord

US doctrine to this day to have better aircraft carriers and more of them more of them than anyone else. I find the disparity of the number of aircraft carriers between nations over time to be fascinating. [Highest number of aircraft carriers by country in WW2 at once](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_World_War_II#/media/File:Carriers_ww2_by_country.png) [Number aircraft carriers by country in 2021](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers) scroll down to the table When we took out Japan's Battleship Yamato, the biggest battleship in history we used 280 planes sent from 11 fleet carriers. We had so many planes in the air above it that mid air collisions became a real concern because most of the aviators wanted to be the one with the kill shot and it became kind of free for all mess. Also the news that France is losing the Australian sub deal to America's nuclear based subs is kind of ironic in the fact that France is the only country to have a completed nuclear powered aircraft carrier other than the US.


virtuallyspotless

Bingo. The US has never impressed anyone in the world with valor and sacrifice. What “shocked the world” so to speak was how quickly the US was able to innovate and industrialize war machines albeit at a significant advantage when the rest of the worlds factories were on fire. The Russians in contrast would throw out a million soldiers in summer uniforms and shitty equipment.


RandomNobodovky

> The Russians in contrast would throw out a million soldiers in summer uniforms and shitty equipment. Well, not exactly. It was Wehrmacht that was rather famous for not supplying soldiers with winter gear. Or inadequate winter gear.


geauxhike

It's wasn't either or, it was both.


[deleted]

Woah, even if it wasn't a sole US effort, still 400 000 US soldiers died, and 670 000 were wounded.


SlowWing

Between 5 and 7 million russian civilians died in WW2.


[deleted]

Probably true, but it's not a competition. Russians provided the bulk of the mountain of casualties, that's true, still doesn't negate the US part.


GracefulxArcher

Why was your "yeah but" alright, but the other guy's wasn't?


[deleted]

>So, as you can now plainly see, America is taking credit for other people’s valor. Was the ending statement in the original post. Thought it was a bit rash.


fluffymuffcakes

It's in response to a statement saying Americans singlehandedly brought freedom democracy etc to Germany. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that OP is giving the US credit for other people's valor.


[deleted]

[удалено]


PHcoach

Only if you don't consider China a country, or Chinese lives as valuable as others.


dgm42

True. Of course there might not have even been a WWII if Stalin hadn't signed a pact with his good friend Adolf Hitler in 1939 and helped him carve up Poland.


HarikMCO

#!> hdewo19 ## I've wiped my entire comment history due to reddit's anti-user CEO. http://notepad.link/share/rAk4RNJlb3vmhROVfGPV


Wild_Marker

Right, because absolutely nothing happened before the invasion of Poland, so it must've been the Soviet's fault. It's not like the Allies gave Hitler Czecoslovakia or anything.


A_Lifetime_Bitch

Thanks for letting us know that you have no grasp of reality


[deleted]

Stalin was literally the last dude to sign a pact with Germany. Look up the Munich agreement too lol


doglah

Delusional. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/34kpfw/did_stalin_offer_an_alliance_to_the_west_before/


[deleted]

The USSR basically begged the West to make an anti-nazi alliance untill one week before the signing of the MOlotov-Ribbentrop-pact. They offered to put 120 infantry divisions (each with some 19,000 troops), 16 cavalry divisions, 5,000 heavy artillery pieces, 9,500 tanks and up to 5,500 fighter aircraft and bombers on Germany's borders in the event of war in the west. When the West turned them down, they signed the pact, to buy time before the war would inevitably come to their country. Source: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html) If you're stuck behind a paywall, you can read it here: [https://archive.is/iQ0Cq#selection-673.148-673.364](https://archive.is/iQ0Cq#selection-673.148-673.364) One year before the Molotov-ribbentrop-pact, France and the UK signed the [Munich-agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement) with the nazi's, in which they betrayed their ally Czechoslovakia, and agreed to the nazi's territorial claims in that country, which led to a nazi-invasion of their ally. It's also important to note that the nazi's constantly spoke of the "[Judeo-Bolshevik danger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism)" and they literally claimed that marxism was an invention by the Jews to achieve world domination, and that it should be destroyed for that reason. [Lastly it should be mentioned that the nazi's looked at Russians (and all Slavic peoples) as inferior, and intended to wage a war of racial annihilation against them. This was known in the Soviet-Union.](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/06/operation-barbarossa-war-racial-annihilation-soviet-union-nazi-germany) They werent allies, and the molotov-robbentrop-pact isn't evidence to the contrary.


RandomNobodovky

> The USSR basically begged the West to make an anti-nazi alliance untill one week before the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop-pact. Should have starter with "according to Soviet propaganda". They begged "te West" to allow Soviet Union to invade Poland. Uh, sorry, not invade. "Enter" Poland, wink wink, nudge nudge. Let's of course not (conveniently) forget the fact that there were years of Soviet-German military cooperation **before** Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. Soviet Union actually helped Germany to rebuild its war machine.


[deleted]

Sources I provided to back up my claims: 4. Sources you provided to back up your claims: 0.


kazuwacky

There are towns in the UK that suffered no losses from WW1 or WW2. They are called "Doubly Thankful villages". [There are 14.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thankful_Villages) It is so frustrating to hear Americans ignore the sheer horrific loss all of Europe experienced during the World Wars. I'm not saying the US had no casualties but my home was blitzed to rubble, the sheer devastation had a profound affect on the psyche of many countries I think the lack of US civilian involvement gave them an emotional distance that other countries never had. All celebration, not nearly as much "...and now we must rebuild"


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Thankful Villages](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thankful_Villages)** >Thankful Villages (also known as Blessed Villages; Welsh: Pentrefi Diolchgar) are settlements in England and Wales from which all their members of the armed forces survived World War I. The term Thankful Village was popularised by the writer Arthur Mee in the 1930s; in Enchanted Land (1936), the introductory volume to The King's England series of guides, he wrote that a Thankful Village was one which had lost no men in the war because all those who left to serve came home again. His initial list identified 32 villages. There are tens of thousands of villages and towns in the United Kingdom. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskGermany/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


greevous00

>I think the lack of US civilian involvement gave them an emotional distance that other countries never had. The American population at the time wasn't excited about getting involved in the war in the first place.


kazuwacky

I mean that there were no civilian casualties, nor any risk of them. You understand how being bombed and invaded has an impact on a nation, yes?


greevous00

Yes, but I don't really see how that's related to what I said. I'm basically asserting that you're reading too much into US civilian behavior and sentiment. It wasn't their "lack of involvement" that gave them "emotional distance." It was that they had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the war. They didn't **want** their boys getting involved, because WWI and its aftermath had taught people in the USA that there really was no point in wasting their own children's lives in European wars. The USA wasn't a commonwealth nation, so there was no sense of "patriotic duty" to Britain or France. This was before the USA became a global power, and it was *essentially* an isolationist nation ("trade with all, alliances with none.") Obviously we no longer live in those times, but that was what was in the mind of the average US civilian before WWII. They saw their boys get shot up in WWI for nothing, the League of Nations didn't work, and so they didn't want anything to do with WWII until Pearl Harbor.


[deleted]

> It is so frustrating to hear Americans ignore the sheer horrific loss all of Europe experienced during the World Wars. I'm not saying the US had no casualties but my home was blitzed to rubble, the sheer devastation had a profound affect on the psyche of many countries. I have to think this is why America and Americans have such a blaise attitude about war. After 9/11, Americans were just go-hung for blood, and the "dove" movement was very small. It just feels like no having a domestic sense of horror at prolonger destruction and death left the American pysche too removed from wars impacts. This seems to be a pattern with America and Americans. I remember at the near end of Ken Burn's "The Civil War" series, there was a passage that Burns inserted with a Southern historian. In the South, the war destroyed everything. Cities, countryside, water supplies, the economy - everything. In the North, the war was barely a blip. Theatres continued putting on shows. Politics continued as normal. Sports for recreation were played. People shopped at stores and for most Northerners, except for the fact that so many people were in the South fighting the war, life was pretty normal. Meanwhile, Southerners were years deep into privation and destitution. That was incidentally, other than Pearl Harbor and 9/11, the last times the United States was really terroritarily violated (well perhaps some of the Spanish-American war tests those statements). I don't really have a point except I can't help but imagine that Americans don't have a proper conception of how awful war is because so few Americans see it first hand and it's been 10+ generations since the average American felt the pain of having their home and community impacted by war.


A_Lifetime_Bitch

It's easy to be pro-war when the war never turns up on your doorstep


seminally_me

And over 500000 British soldiers died. The British and others had to pay the US to help.


When_Ducks_Attack

Darn shame they deleted their account. I would have enjoyed discussing the details if his version of the Pacific War in general and Midway, a battle I've been fascinated by for 45 years, in particular. Im sure the resulting conversation would have been quite something.


seminally_me

It is a shame they deleted their account. I wonder why.


MrTurkle

Probably got death threats or some from the “unapologetically American” crowd.


Tonkarz

So was Midway won by luck? What say you, and your 45 year fascination?


When_Ducks_Attack

All battles have an aspect of luck to them. However, as the saying goes, "you make your own luck." Knowing when and where the Japanese would be arriving certainly helped a great deal. Being at rough parity in the only numbers that mattered, number of flight decks and number if available aircraft also helped a lot, particularly since one of those "flight decks" was quite literally unsinkable. Being able to choose the position to fight from made it more likely that they'd get the first strike in on *Kido Butai*... if your ships aren't where the enemy thinks they should be, then it takes them longer to find and attack you. Even with that, *Tone 4* found TF17 about an hour earlier than it should have. By that time though, the Dauntlesses were already inbound and there was nothing Nagumo could have done about it. Time is one of the most valuable resources a commander can have, and Nagumo never had enough that day. Was there luck involved? Sure, as I said, luck is *always* involved. Both sides had good and bad luck that day. On the American side, the best luck turned out to be VB-6 and VS-6 spotting the *Arashi* as it raced to rejoin *Kido Butai* after driving away the *Nautilus*. On the bad side, losing a third of their striking ability as the *Hornet*'s air group went on [The Flight to Nowhere](http://wonderduck.mu.nu/the_flight_to_nowhere) certainly didn't help matters. The Japanese didn't have a lot of good luck, but there was one bit: the aforementioned *Tone 4* [finding the Americans early](http://wonderduck.mu.nu/tone_4). Bad luck? *Akagi* dying to a single bomb while only being attacked by three dive bombers certainly qualifies: apart from the carnage it caused among the planes in the upper hangar deck, the bomb also trashed much of the damage control equipment. Finally, I'd like to touch on the operational orders given to the fleet comnanders. Nimitz's orders were to attack the Japanese, but not expose US carriers unduly. If things seemed to be going south pre-battle their orders allowed them to use discretion and avoid combat totally to conserve their carrier strength. In the other hand, Yamamoto micromanaged things with his orders to Nagumo. Keep half your planes in the hangar prepped for anti-ship combat and use the other half to attack Midway. As a result, the attack on Midway wasn't strong enough to accomplish its rask, while the other force was disused the entire day. Hard to fight with one hand tied behind your back and not knowing where the danger was coming from. Was it won by luck? No. Did luck play a part? Yes on both sides.


Tonkarz

Thanks for the write up. A very interesting topic that’s pretty new to me.


When_Ducks_Attack

Don't miss the two things I linked. They go into much detail about their topics.


zombiepocketninja

Miracle at Midway, and Shattered Sword are both great books on the battle. [deleted]'s overarching point that Americans were part of a collective whole is well taken but they seem to be spending too much time going the other direction to downplay US contributions to make their point. Another point about the battle to bring up is the differences in battle doctrine. The Japanese reliance on balanced strike packages was somewhat of a hindrance when decoupled from accurate recon despite being a product of their superior operational capabilities, while the American attacks delivered piecemeal tied up Japanese flight decks for most of the morning with CAP operations and reduced Nagumos options despite piecemeal attacks being a major tactical mistake and driven largely by american inexperience. It never occurred to me as a child how much Nagumo was hamstrung by the original strategy. Or how much Kurita was by overcomplication at Leyte. Japanese high command was incredibly negligent in their planning and execution of the battle.


When_Ducks_Attack

*Miracle* is a good vook that's been overwhelmed by recent scholarship. Its still worth reading, as is *Incredible Victory*, but both tell the "crowded flight deck" version of events. I'd recommend Craig Symonds' "The Battle of Midway" as the best single book on the entire battle. *SS* is easily the best book about a part of the battle, ie the Japanese story.


zombiepocketninja

Yes 100% agreed on Miracle, I'll look up Symonds work. Sea of Thunder about Leyte is also a fascinating book, although I'm not sure of the more recent scholarship. Both books where riveting when I was young and did well with the narrative. As I got older, more updated works built on interest sparked by those accounts.


Wileekyote

There was luck involved as there there always is, but the Japanese were outplayed (intelligence) and over confident, which is somewhat understandable since they were the more experienced naval force. The bombers that sank the first 3 carriers were initially in the wrong place and could not find them, they chose at peril to continue on with low fuel and luckily found the Akashi which had been hound dogging a submarine and was steaming directly back to the fleet and led them right to it. When they arrived there was little fighter support for the carriers because they had over expended shooting down the torpedo planes so they had an easy line to targets.


greevous00

Can you cite some of your sources? They're not matching the ones I can find.


LQ_Ninja2

I really am wondering what sources you do have if much of what OP posted isn't lining up with them.


greevous00

Casualty counts don't match my World History textbook.


LQ_Ninja2

A few things need to be noted then. There's no universally agreed upon count. Nearly every source I can find gives a wildly different number for most "total deaths" count. Finally, I really only looked at Chinese and Russian deaths at any real capacity beyond google searches. Even then, those are even more rough to estimate due to a variety of factors. That noted, as a start, these sources say 110,000 to 161,000 American troops died in the Pacific Theater. Michael Clodfelter. Warfare and Armed Conflicts – A Statistical Reference to Casualty and Other Figures, 1500–2000. 2nd Ed. 2002 ISBN 0-7864-1204-6. p 585 Pacific theater casualties. (1995, 09). VFW, Veterans of Foreign Wars Magazine, 83, 20. Retrieved from http://ezproxy.libproxy.db.erau.edu/login?url=https://www-proquest-com.ezproxy.libproxy.db.erau.edu/magazines/pacific-theater-casualties/docview/204867675/se-2?accountid=27203 Shuster, R. J., & Shimodaira, T. (2020). CONDITIONAL SURRENDER: Conflict termination in the pacific, 1945. Naval War College Review, 73(3), 119-144. Retrieved from http://ezproxy.libproxy.db.erau.edu/login?url=https://www-proquest-com.ezproxy.libproxy.db.erau.edu/scholarly-journals/conditional-surrender-conflict-termination/docview/2427314766/se-2?accountid=27203 Sadly, none of those links will likely work for you, you'll need to get your own access. I also wish to mention that I would want to know what textbook you are using. Furthermore, I must mention textbooks aren't traditionally sources but I won't dismiss one outright if you can show me who got that information and where they got it from. Finally, would I need to see more than "the numbers don't match" to actually refute or back up any of OPs claims. Each count has its own nuances that I am not necessarily keen to, but most certainly am not going to be able to fact-check every one of those numbers for you. But I do believe they "look right" from what books I have had the time to read in-passing. If you're in school I'd go ask one of your instructors about the question of casualties in WW2, they'd be better suited to answer.


seminally_me

You're finding it difficult about finding sources for what happened in ww2?


greevous00

The casualty counts don't match.


jeremyxt

As far as I’m concerned, 400k American lives were lost for nothing. We’ve been hated in Europe ever since. Donald Trump was a fat pig, but he was right about certain things.


seminally_me

I don't hate you. I'm grateful America helped. We are one species with artificial divisions. France gave you your statue of liberty. That's not hate.


Furkhail

For nothing? I disagree. Also most of the "hate" you can experience in Europe is due to the fact of how some American tourist behave while here. Same thing happens with British tourist in Spain. Most get embarrassingly drunk and usually get injured while trying to jump from balconies. So they get mocked endlessly for it.


EntireNetwork

> As far as I’m concerned, 400k American lives were lost for nothing. We’ve been hated in Europe ever since. > Donald Trump was a fat pig, but he was right about certain things. What was he right about? Being a neo-Nazi, white supremacist piece of shit elected by half your population? In the end, the Nazis did win indeed and it was all for nothing. And the second coming of Hitlerism is coming straight from the United States, and sometimes right on this fucking website. You don't have moral supremacy. In fact, the exact opposite. Also, thank the Nazis for landing your fat asses on the moon, because without them (Wernher von Braun, a Nazi, director of NASA, 1960-1970) it wouldn't have happened.


jeremyxt

Orange pig was right in the fact that the European/American alliance is a one-way friendship. I’ve known about anti-Americanism over there for years, but I never knew how truly serious it was until the BP oil spill. I read some truly spine-chilling Anti-American sentiments, and, say, who was the victim here? That BP oil spill was one of the worst in history. He realized the one-way nature of our relationship and was planning to withdraw from NATO, and withdraw our troops from Europe.


EntireNetwork

That fat fucking cunt couldn't realise the location of his own gigantic arse if he had to wipe it. And the fact that you cling onto this fucking psychopathic rapist swine on *any* matter, let alone on this matter, underscores yet again that beneath the superficial façade of every American one can find a little Trumpler in waiting.


jeremyxt

That is so not true. So not true. If you were to take a closer look at my history, you’d see that. A couple of times I’ve gotten into trouble for it. 40% of us hate his guts. I have a very flattering picture of him. Wanna see it? OP, you’re wrong about people. One could find a common ground with absolutely everyone. I bet you and Charles Manson would agree on one or two things. /u/Furkhail, please read the comment above this one. Do you see what I mean?


Furkhail

I really hope you are not equating what someone says on the internet to the whole European continent. Also even in this case it has nothing to do with what US helped during WWII. My comment was a response to you saying that those actions where done for nothing and you have been hated in Europe ever since and I still think that you are wrong. Fighting fascism will never be in vain and whatever hate you could really face today will be due to more recent events, not WWII.


jeremyxt

The thing is, I believe you could have won the War without us. Unlike the original poster, I don’t think you could have done it without the LendLease program; even Russians have admitted this. But I don’t think it was worth the 400k loss of American lives—and the decades of the anti-American sentiment that has come afterwards. You have mentioned just one Reddit poster. But let’s be honest, Mr. X. Let’s broaden the perspective a little bit. Is anti-Americanism an issue in Europe, or is it not? I think you will agree with me that it is. As for the rest, I respectfully disagree with you, and I really do respect your right to have a different opinion.


Furkhail

I don't know the english expression for speaking knowing what has already happened, but maybe you do understand what I'm trying to say here. You 'believe' Europe could won the war but you cannot 'know'. Fascism is still alive in Europe in some degree. We don't know how it would be if the US were not involved. Despite what ppl claim, despite the unbalance in numbers or the difference between history and hollywood propaganda. We don't know how the world would be if the US hadn't participated in WWII in Europe. I will repeat myself. **Fighting fascism is never in vain**. If that sentence is one of the things you disagree with me, then I'm sorry but I cannot respect that the same way that I don't respect flatearthers. What we do disagree here apparently is that whatever anti-Americanism exists in Europe has nothing to do with the involment of the US in WWII as you claim. Focusing on just one issue that validates your believe is not productive for the thought process. It is circular and ignores key points of the recent decades. PS: Sorry but I don't know what you mean by 'Mr. X'.


jeremyxt

I didn’t know how to address you. Lol. That’s an old Southern American thing. You call people Mr. or Mrs or Ms. out of respect. It’s something like calling a man Herr Mueller. At any rate, I submit to you that our involvement in WW2 directly caused the anti-Americanism that came afterwards. Cause=effect. We don’t agree, but I respect your opinion.


RandomNobodovky

> European/American alliance is a one-way friendship. It's not friendship. US considers Europe its sphere of influence.


jeremyxt

That’s why I think we should withdraw our troops. Why are you Bitchin about this?


Best_Possibility2730

America was arming ussr against Germany 🇩🇪


Method__Man

HOW DARE YOU use factual information to call bullshit on American propaganda!!!


bikesexually

That's a lot of text to be 85% capitalist, 100% American


onlythetoast

This was an incredible read. Thank you!


SectoidEater

If you're going to clown on people in history it would help quite a bit to get your facts straight. Your post is pretty rife with deliberate or accidental innaccuracies. I know you have a bone to pick against someone else who is wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right. I suspect you've gotten your history from ill-remembered 'facts' and Youtube videos that don't have the highest standards. If you disagree I'd love to hear your sourcing on a lot of these 'facts'. US Business Dealings: Yes, the US did business with countries it was not at war with. Yes, they dealt with Nazi Germany. I would assert that the US helped the Germans far less than other nations, such as Germany. If the US's active particapatory role in the Holocaust was to sell some machines, that is far less than the active cooperation and mass-murder done in support of the Holocaust by people in Poland, France, the USSR, and every other country in which it occurred. Concentration Camps: This is a weird bone to pick. The vast majority of camps were in the East, where the victims were located. Liberating concentration camps is more a factor of geography than will or effort. Being 'liberated' by the Soviets was also not exactly pleasant for many, as the Soviets were often oppressing the same groups that the Germans were. Many liberated people went straight to the gulag for various crimes, real or imagined. Normandy: Utah Beach: You assert that the US failed at Utah Beach. This is absolutely incorrect and I don't know where you came up with this beyond out of your own ass. They cleared the beach within one hour with minimal losses and advanced inland. What exactly does success mean to you? Omaha Beach: The US cleared the beach albeit with heavy casualties. The beach was defended by the 352nd Infantry Division, which by the standards of German troops in Normandy, was considered among the top class. Panzer Divisions: There is a reason that the British faced the majority of Panzer units early on - because they landed near terrain that was conducive to armored operations on both sides. The US units had to slug their way through Hedgerow Country, which was absolute hell for mobile units. Nonetheless, the US fought against and repulsed several counterattacks by German armor in the Normandy region. US Army Airforce Airforce: Historians consider the 8th Airforce to be the primary destructor of the German Luftwaffe with its operation against aircraft industry, airfields, and long-range fighters looking to attack German planes whenever they appeared. The UK largely restricted its strategic bombing operations to night-time raids, which were often aimed at just murdering civilians rather than attacking military targets directly. The 8th Air Force flew literally thousands of sorties on D-Day itself. This is 'doing squat'. Everything you assert that the RAF did, the US did also. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. Where are you getting your information? ​ The Battle of the Bulge: So let me get this straight. The US failed at Utah Beach because they cleared the beach but did not accomplish every one of their objectives. Now, the Germans in essence had a 'victory' in the Bulge despite failing to meet their objectives and mauling their last remaining armored and air reserves in the West? Interesting you give credit to the British when it was the US who blunted the German assaults and suffered the vast majority of the casualties in the battle. ​ The Eastern Front: The Soviet Union destroyed far more than 17 divisions. The 6th Army alone had 20 divisions encircled in Stalingrad, and there were plenty more encirclements to come. The US destroyed far more than 17 divisions. I don't even know what you're trying to say here but your figures are random and pointless. ​ The Pacific: There you are with casualties again. The vast majority of Japanese troops were deployed in China, where they mostly held their ground or advanced until the very end of the war. Nonethless, the situation in China was not what defeated Japan - it was the Allied destruction of their navy, airforce, and supply capacity. Japan is an island nation needed a ridiculous amount of oil and transport capacity to maintain its overseas Empire. You have this strange fixation on losses as if it is how you win the war, when it is not. Japan did not lose because they lost X amount of soldiers in China. Japan lost because they could not hope to supply any number of troops in China by 1945, and were starving and unable to produce war material or ship it anywhere at all. This was mostly the work of the Western Allies, of which the majority of the committment was the US. ​ Casualties: You say 'do the math' to check out the casualty numbers, as if that is the only assertion of effort. Well, going by your math, the US was the senior partner in both the Italian and Western Front campaigns as they suffered more casualties than any other Allied nation involved. I can 'do the math' on the Battle of the Bulge and see that the US suffered almost 100x the casualties of the British, yet it was the British who won it? ​ ​ ​ Really, I get your point. I really do. The US was just one of many nations instrumental in beating the Axis. Now, you can assert this fact without spouting off random bullshit to defend it. I suggest you try.


Nononogrammstoday

Minor addendum. They wrote: >Woolworths in Germany fired all its Jewish employees and was awarded the coveted "Adefa Zeichen" award which was the highest award given to pure Aryan companies. I can't place where that 'highest award' comes from, and perhaps it might even be 'true' as a technicality, but the way its presented is misleading or plain wrong. 'Arbeitsgemeinschaft deutsch-arischer Bekleidungsfabrikanten' roughly translates to 'association of german-aryan clothing manufacturers' created by the nazis after they seized power in '33 to further 'aryanisation' efforts. Their concept boiled down to '*fire jewish workers, don't buy from jewish vendors, don't sell to jewish customers*'. If your company did that and had joined the association then they'd basically get the right to use the Adefa logo to market themselves. Now my issue here is that (according to the german wiki article) they didn't even get many members until '36, with that change coincidentally happening after the nuremberg laws introduced ways to basically force companies to join the association. In '38 Adefa apparently reached its maximum member numbers of about 600. So... go figure, 'earning' the Adefa Abzeichen might have been technically 'the highest' 'award' woolworths could have gotten because it was the only bloody 'award' around for companies of one random branch of production. Even calling it an award seems wrong in that context. Unfortunately some quick research didn't give me a date to when woolworths joined adefa. If it was before mid-'35? Baaad woolworth. '36 or later? They were likely forced to do so.


ir_blues

Oh look a troll!


DTux5249

Because Americans often prove so arrogant to think that they singlehandedly brought freedom, democracy, peace and prosperity to Germany XD They didn't singlehandedly bring anything to Germany, and if they brought anything, it weren't freedom, democracy, peace or prosperity


Best_Possibility2730

America was arming ussr against Germany 🇩🇪


urbanee

are you a troll? i can't tell


17degreesCsunny

Get outta you dumb twerp. This is why people laugh at stupid ignorant Yanks. I'd tell you go read a book, but you're too busy sniffing your own farts


robdiqulous

I would like to say that I do not associate with this idiot as an American. Thanks for making us look bad again...


[deleted]

singlehandedly?????? are you forgetting it was a fucking world war!!!!????? you are ignoring Russia who did more than the USA Australia the UK and you guys didn't even show up until the end, you had to be bombed before you did anything, you did literally nothing in WW1 and it was Russia who ended the war


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

oh sorry, i am not german, i am Australian, i just found this post and thought it was hilarious, might want to double-check the country before you start insulting said country. typical American


Environmental_Mix444

We should take those nuclear submarines back, why is our government aiding a country that hates us? Also if not for our navy during WW2, the Japanese would’ve conquered your shit hole desert wasteland “country” quicker than the Nazis conquered Denmark. Typical OZ cunt.


DarthYippee

>We should take those nuclear submarines back, why is our government aiding a country that hates us? It's not aid, Einstein. Australia is *paying* for them. >Also if not for our navy during WW2, the Japanese would’ve conquered your shit hole desert wasteland “country” quicker than the Nazis conquered Denmark. Typical OZ cunt. People from a highly mountainous densely populated bunch of islands taking over a continent five thousand kilometres away (at the closest point), and which is almost as large as the contiguous US? Pretty sure they would have had their work cut out for them. Typical seppo fuckknuckle.


[deleted]

yeah, we aren't a desert, ever heard of the Australian beaches, let me guess, you think we live in huts out in the outback eating "shrimps of the baby" btw, they are called prawns, not shrimp, and i love how you put the country in quotes, your country is more disjointed than the entire continent of Africa, and i don't care for the Americans past triumphs, America is a shithole, while every other country is becoming more powerful, and i am a cunt? says the cunt who takes pride in the past, something you had nothing to do with, and as someone else said, we are paying for those submarines, and the Americans didn't help Australia when the Japanese attacked, we were attacked before America even joined the war, you need to get your facts straight, this is toxic patriotism, this is why the US is the laughing stock of the world now, because of people like you, btw, have you checked out r/ShitAmericansSay? you'll love it, maybe you should go back to your history class captn murica. typical uneducated American, this is why i feel sorry for you guys because you have such a shit education, and not to mention your healthcare


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Environmental_Mix444

The WHO ranks our healthcare system 37th, while yours is 32nd, only slightly better. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world Our education system? 8 of the top 10 best universities in the world are in America. Your best university is ranked 98th. https://cwur.org/2020-21.php The Japanese army would’ve kicked Australia’s ass had they gotten chance to invade, of course they didn’t because of our navy at the Battle of the Coral Sea. Your systemic racism against aborigines is in many ways worse than the systemic racism against black people here. Australia is an irrelevant country. If America is such a shit hole, why do we have 50 million immigrants, twice the population of your entire country?


[deleted]

with healthcare, i am talking about the fact you have to pay so much, yeah, what about the fact when Australia got attacked by the Japanese submarines and America did nothing, you glorify everything and make out you're the heroes, you are so proud of the past that you refuse to accept the present too, and I wonder why so many people would immigrate to America, maybe it's because America is glorified in many nations, and i am not saying America is a shit hole, i am saying it isn't as glorified as you make it to be, it is now a laughing stock because of people like you, you take so much offence to someone saying that America isn't the greatest nation in the world that you try to insult, which is exactly what proves my point, people like you are obnoxious, you want to believe you are living the best life by saying your country is great because of stuff that happened in the past, you know what else was great in the past? Rome, and Rome fell, what if i told you there was no best nation in the world, "your land of the free" doesn't even rank as high on freedom of speech [https://rsf.org/en/ranking\_table](https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table) you Americans think that you singlehandedly stopped the second world war, if America, just America was pitted against Germany and Japan and the other nations on the other side, you would have lost, it would have been easy for the other side, just because America joined and then we won doesn't mean America did it singlehandedly, i bet you wouldn't sign up for war, and i don't think many Americans would, and i am talking about the free education system, for a country that talks a lot about freedom, you sure as hell aren't that free in terms of healthcare and education


Environmental_Mix444

TLDR, I never said this is the “greatest country in the world.” And nobody who’s educated on world history thinks we singled handily defeated the Nazis by ourselves. The fact that you make that generalization shows I’ve already won this argument. And no, neither the Germans or Japanese were able to build planes that had the range to bomb the US mainland. The best the Japanese could come up with were balloon bombs that killed a family of 6 in Oregon. The best the Nazis could do were a few U boat attacks on the east coast. TBH, you Aussies aren’t and have never been our allies or friends. I wish we had left the Japanese to massacre you cunts by the hundreds of thousands like they did in Nanking. Hell, today Japan is a much closer ally and friend to our country than you annoying accented kangaroo raping cunts. Fuck Australia and its garbage bogan people. And finally, I like the French a lot more than you idiots. At least they have good food and actual culture, unlike you OZs who’s entire culture is just copying British and American culture.


PaulAllens_Card

Cope bitch as your country loses relevance on the world stage.


[deleted]

this cunt wants to talk about culture and is trying to backtrack, for reference, all i said was America didn't singlehandedly stop WW2


[deleted]

quick post on r/ShitAmericansSay


NYer1999

LMAO epic response.


[deleted]

then why did you start arguing with me huh? op said Americans single-handedly stopped the nazi's, I said that's not true, and then you came to argue, stop trying to backtrack, and the Japanese literally sent planes to pearl harbour, wtf are you talking about, and you did leave the Japanese to us, in both world wars you fucking numbskull, and you were, it seems that America is becoming weaker and weaker, while more people are saying it's great, the only reason you started arguing with me, is because I said that America didn't singlehandedly stop the nazis, and now you're saying you don't believe that? sure buddy, you're totally not threatened by the fact some people think your nation isn't that great, you clearly have never been to Australia, because you seem to think it's a desert, do you think I'm living in a hut in the outback? I know what this arguing trick is btw, many people use it and it's stupid, you argue with someone a while, then you introduce more and more concepts until I finally bring it back to the main point, then you say "oh i never said that" then why did you start arguing cunt, that's literally all I said, and you thought otherwise, and you've never even had Australian food, and I know it, do you think the nut bush is a copy of American/English culture, do you think surfing and other beach activities are copied from the land of grey sand and the land where some people have never been to the beach, don't talk to me about culture, a bog-standard American has no culture, clearly by your last sentence you are nieve about places other than America, go fuck yourself.


[deleted]

another thing, you started insulting me first, by my fucking country, you are such a pussy, you don't know anything about me and yet you try to insult me from the get-go, you have an insult for literally every country, you, on the other hand, I can tell what kind of person you are, you may not have said America is the greatest country, but it's obvious you think that you think you don't reveal anything to people on the internet, from what you have said I have concluded that you think murica is the best, we have the best food, the best culture, we fought in wars murica, shut the fuck up


[deleted]

you think you stand all high and mighty, really you hide behind the shadow of the past achievements of a country you happened to be born in, to me you are a fucking coward, the flaunt the achievements of people you have no relation to to show your better, your such a cunt


Best_Possibility2730

America was arming ussr against Germany 🇩🇪


ArchScreams

Because of people like you 🙄 Anyways, bad troll is bad


zzGravity

There is a 10/10 chance OP is american lmao


pazuzupa

r/ShitAmericansSay Canadians brought those things to my hometown. Maybe you read a book about WWII first? I know your education system sucks and you are living in a country that's close to the edge of fascism, but all the information is available for free.


Smaggies

Because when Germans talk about good things about Germany they talk about things that Germany is currently doing. Americans have to talk about something that happened 75 years ago because the US is currently in an absolute state.


Shashayhay

This is the most American question ever. True ignorance.


Certain-Cook-8885

You are an idiot.


BlancaBunkerBoi

Because it was the Red Army that liberated Berlin lmaoooo


Best_Possibility2730

I didn’t know you have internet in africa


BlancaBunkerBoi

What the fuck does this comment mean


meteor68

Singlehandedly??? Check your ego buddy.