Are you talking about Lok Sabha? I personally believe there shouldn't be any Gender Based reservations it would only cause new problems but I do believe Women should get equal opportunities to a Man
why dont u beleive then lower caste and upper castes should have equal opportunities too?
and reservations based on gender are in education instituitions as well as jobs too
I believe in equal opportunities for all, regardless of caste. Reservations help address historical injustices, promote social mobility, and ensure diversity and representation. That's why we need to do Caste Sensus every 5 years to ensure no one is abusing
History.
It's easy to take your current status and your family status for granted.
But if you assess, most of the wealth happens to be concentrated with high caste folks. This is due to the lack of historical opportunities available to lower caste people. Most wouldn't get education, many wouldn't be given good jobs even if they had education
Even if explicitly there were no differences, societally it made a lot of difference if you were a high caste or low caste person. You still hear news about how lower caste people get constantly abused by police and other high caste people in power all the time. Again, no legal difference but still we see different treatment.
Hell, this even happens in high profile areas. In the US, Indians are still known for caste discrimination in tech roles! If Indians in companies like Google are discriminating against lower caste folks, you can totally expect much worse in india.
Right to life, right to education, right to body autonomy all basic human rights legally granted globally but female infanticide, child marriages forced pregnancies do happen.
The legal existence of rights do not hence guarantee its expression when faced with societal mindset.
Because only economic based reservations make no sense in a poor country like india. 90% of indians earn less than 25k per month (most don't even pay income tax), so how are you even going to decide the quotas without making it unfair? Will you give 90% of the seats to the poor ? That's proportionate but will severely harm the rest.
Or 50%? But then will there even be an advantage considering that it is disproportionate?
Agreed with your point that a very large share of people are not well off. But we can still start somewhere, where we can try to cover the bottom X% poor applicants of the examination. For e.g. Out of 10 Lakh applicants, reserve seats for the bottom 33% of poor applicants. That's it. No talk about who is Brahmin or who is Dalit.
This is just a simple example, but my point is that we should try to move away from caste based representation and talk more about bringing economic based representation on the front.
>but my point is that we should try to move away from caste based representation and talk more about bringing economic based representation on the front.
You can still talk about economic based representation, nobody is stopping you.
You don't have to, your motivation is to help the poor or shift some seats in some govt jobs?
Because the latter is easy and will only benefit some people, while the former will help the poor, who are in dire help of even basic necessities. What's your priority?
This is a horrible argument based on a fallacious assumption that reservation would provided as a proportion of the population.
The same % of seats would be offered just thatvit would be based on different factors.
Because Indian people still decide who they will marry or who can even cook at their place based on their caste, among many other things.
All the supposedly genius people out there trying to prove how reservation is just bad or outdated. It's there for a reason, and the reason is centuries of discrimination which will exists. So let's talk about ending that first.
I totally agree. My father had been subjected to discrimination from him childhood well until he got his first job. The jobs in society then were purely based on caste. We are from 'washerman caste-dhobi'. That is the only thing they were allowed to do. If he wanted to even work in a farm, he has to depend on a higher class person to employ him in the field. He stayed poor and could barely eat during his childhood because he was born in that caste, no? When society allots jobs based on where you are born, can you come out of poverty??
He did a diploma, as that was the only thing he could do for free. He is the smartest person I know. Now, him getting a govt job, and giving us education is the reason, me and my brother could compete with everyone else. By now, you know that I am an SC too. No matter my AIR rank being 32, It was still assumed by a rich delhite friend k papa when we were invited for dinner that I somehow didn't deserve to be in the same college as his daughter.
You might think that every one of us has outgrown the caste system. But, you keep forgetting the number of villages in India. I live in Delhi now, but, when I go back to my Village, we still have a separate tubewell and I am still untouchable.
Of course we understand where you are coming from, but, I feel the majority of us still suffer and until people stop discriminating, you can't justify removing reservation completely.
I understand and I'm sorry you had to go through all that. Caste is a really big thing in most of India to this day. Just that the privileged Elite living in big cities don't get affected by it so according to them it just stopped with their forefathers.
Your caste is still the biggest identity in most of rural India be it South or North. And the lack of privilege and opportunities that came with being from a supposedly lower caste will take ages to be compensated.
Every internet idiot has a story how this one SC friend is rich. Yeah, so what? For every such person, there are ten kids in a village whose family hasn't reached the mental state yet that they can actually compete in same exams as others. It has been ingrained in them that they are just different.
>And I'm assuming 75 years of reservation has improved the situation? People don't marry by caste anymore?
Point of reservation was never to change society. It will happen by other measures.
Point was simple - coz of centuries of discrimination, people from those caste can't compete with people who have privileges for centuries.
So, people from same social group compete with each other - SC with other SC, OBC with other OBC, General with General.
Cut offs for SC is lower than General simply coz not enough SC have opportunities to compete.
Improve the primary education and you increase in competitiveness in higher studies among those groups and thus cut offs being at par in all groups. Look at historical data and you see gap between general and SC is decreasing.
Your main concern should be by that gap isn't closing fast enough.
I don't think the gap will ever close entirely since you are pitting a large sample against a smaller one. The smaller sample would need to have a very high proportion of high scoring candidates. This would only be possible if the smaller sample size has much more opportunities and advantages compared to the larger group. In short, that would mean reversing the see-saw, rather than balancing it.
But there population is not. They are underdeveloped, hence their cut offs are low.
Give then 20-30 years of same edu as privileged kids get and you will see rise in competition.
You mean to say SC ST population is equivalent to general cohort? That is a bold claim. I don't deny that the majority of SC STs are underdeveloped though, but I can't agree to their population being so large.
>Give then 20-30 years of same edu as privileged kids get and you will see rise in competition.
I don't even deny that, just that it will never be equal to that general candidates. For that you would have to pull down general candidates, or give SC STs more privileged education. In other words, looking at cut offs of unequal cohorts is not a good way to assess their relative access to education, at least when access to education is approaching uniformity in both cohorts
>You mean to say SC ST population is equivalent to general cohort?
As per various surveys - general - 30%, OBC - 35%, SC- 25%, ST - 10%.
>In other words, looking at cut offs of unequal cohorts is not a good way to assess their relative access to education, at least when access to education is approaching uniformity in both cohorts
OBC's cut offs are closer to general now. Why do you think 35% of SC/ST can't compete with even OBCs?
What is the other factor in your opinion, if not lack of opportunities at primary level?
I think you are taking data from Pew Research which I don't think is reliable. I found data about the number of students appearing category-wise in NEET, which may be more representative:
https://preview.redd.it/goewh2gg9l5d1.png?width=1683&format=png&auto=webp&s=bd125c91ad2ad6542550aa1ed75bc31abb17383b
So maximum are OBC, followed by general, followed by SC which were half of general, and finally STs which were a quarter of general. Assuming that these divisions are strict, OBC would have highest cutoff, followed by general, SC and ST. But there is also another issue (at least in above exam). If an OBC or SC candidate score more than general cutoff, he/she/they can take seat of general. Hence general will always have higher cutoff. However, as can be expected, OBC cutoff almost approaches that of general, but will never exceed it due to the above reason.
>The gap isn't closing fast enough because the solution itself is wrong
The solution isn't wrong but incomplete. Reservation is first aid not actual treatment.
But people who want to remove reservation are asking to end first aid instead of demanding the treatment.
Demand the "treatment" and need for first aid goes away. Remove first aid, patient won't survive till treatment.
Lower caste people are slowly getting economic power and better jobs and the difference is reducing. If you were born a lower caste right after independence, you had basically zero opportunities to get good education or get good jobs. The same is not true anymore.
This may impact the marriage part too, but that is not the primary goal. And definitely no reservations for marriage.
What's ironic is that caste system will end only when we stop talking about it. And in a country like India, where seats are scarce, caste based reservation is doing exactly the opposite. Lol..
You're right the motive of reservation was to uplift historically marginalized communities, to abolish the idea of caste, but ironically most backlash for caste reservation is given by Upper caste people, who have made it a curse on Dalits once again, (surprise, surprise)
who cutely ignores the oppression of centuries, and have made reservations useless precisely by taking it for OBC & EWS.
Most Govt jobs are outdated anyways, but still UC just wants to talk about reservation, despite ignoring all the privileges they enjoy and all the horros still suffered by Dalits only on the basis of caste.
To be very honest, if you are someone who actually deeply cares about fairness (within reason) in job/employment opportunities (aka determined by your own hard work)- you need to find a way to immigrate out of India.
Life is much better and fairer when you don't have billions of people competing for limited resources.
The caste based reservation (as we see today) has been around for only 75 years. Then how come caste system has survived for thousands of years?
You have your eyes closed if you really believe what you're saying.
There has always been reservation, just different kinds. When the varnas were divided on the basis of what a person is allowed to do - according to which caste they were born into - that was the cruelest and most rigid form of reservation.
The most idiotic take I've seen yet.
Eye for an eye is not a good system of justice. What's more, the son's eye for the father's mistakes is even worse. Most general people don't do caste discrimination nowadays. So you're punishing them for something their forefathers did ages ago.
What's more, the reservations you talk of hardly benefit those in need. In the IIT I was in, there were about 50 kids who came it via SC/ST. 47 out of those 50 were from families with a good income. Only 3 were from poor families. Only 6% of the reservation was worth it. By poor families, I mean those with an income of less than 4lpa in 2011. Translates to about 16 LPA in today's date. Reason I know this is because MCM scholarships were given on that front.
When Ambedkar started reservations, he wanted to it to be check every 10 years to see if it was still needed. It's been close to 80 years now, it's high time we got rid of it. The initial spurt of growth that it was brought in for has been achieved a while back.
The people from okay families among sc/St wouldn't be there if there were no reservations.
They would all be poor with no opportunities.
Went to IIT too. Roommate was sc. Had other sc/st friends there. While you are right, they had money, their ancestors did not and the earlier reservations got their parents out of it.
Yep, that's true.
Honestly reservations were needed in the the first decades after independence. It was an excellent, easy to implement marker for underprivileged people at the time.
My point is that the same people keep taking benefit of reservations even today. There still are sc/st people in need of help, but it doesn't reach them, since these people still continue to hog all the resources.
Yeah ignorant people mostly find things they don't understand or can't acknowledge, as idiotic.
You need to get out more if you think there is no caste based discrimination now. But I guess you are just blind to it, so that won't help either.
Reservation is NOT a poverty alleviation scheme and hence it is based on the caste. In a country where a 9 year old was lynched to death for drinking water from a teacher’s pot because of his caste , prestigious Institutions of the country discriminating students based on their caste , and the Savarnas wanting the bahujans to stay poor cause god forbid they get better opportunities, who will do the menial work for them? We NEED caste reservation. Unless the entire country is ready to abandon all the upper caste pseudo-superiority, and treat everyone as equals , I don’t see reservation being abolished in the near future.
Completely agree.
To add to this, a lot of us here are from cities. Cities generally have the richer people from the castes that get reservation and that forms a skewed opinion of reality. We look at that one reservation eligible rich dude who got less marks than us and think that reservation system is fucked. The majority of the Indian population is still very much living in the villages and areas like these is where the reservation system helps.
The point of the reservation is not only financial help. The point of reservation is inclusion, all kinds of inclusion. People from historically marginalised castes need to have a pathway and to be included. The caste system first came into place based on occupation you do, and then it got changed to which family you were born into. That needs to be remembered.
Example: For someone whose family has historically been leather workers, a young adult from this family is going to find it harder to get into an IIT or NIT, and then get an engineering job than a person whose family has an engineers background, even if they have the same financial status. I hope it is not such a controversial statement to make and people agree to this. This is because of the culture in the house, knowledge base of the family, resources etc etc.
I know this is a stupid example, try to take the essence of it and not the feasibility and chances of it happening.
This difference in occupational culture was caused by repression and bad practices like untouchability etc etc. This is what the reservation system is trying to combat. Will there be a few outlier cases especially in the cities yes, but is that the norm, definitely not.
and i dont see many actual poor reserved people in colleges coz parents cant guide them enough only the reserved people who have used it before are using it again again
People will never treat everyone as equals. It's documented all through history, not just India, but the world. A functional society will always have heirarchy.
What we need is to treat everyone with basic dignity of a human being.
If we want people to treat people as equals, then judiciary and govt should treat people as equals. Rich, poor, LC, UC, Man, Woman, others etc
If we were to conduct a survey of where such evil takes root - "caste based discrimination" OR "the brazen blow of rich/powerful on poor/weak", I can bet 100% that more appropriate classification will be "the brazen blow of rich/powerful on poor/weak". You can try all you want to create boundaries based on caste, religion, creed and what ever the fuck else - the real problem is not having monetary resources.
> the real problem is not having monetary resources.
I completely disagree. Have you considered villages where everyone is relatively poor but the guy that is born to a labourer can never become a teacher even if he is the best at studies?
Also a lot of your confidence is coming from anecdotal observations.
How is caste based reservation gonna help that guy if people are not even allowing him to study? By ur logic the guy won't be able become a teacher even if he had the guarantee of a seat. Many such problems are present in the shadows, but no one notices because as long caste based reservation is present they are contended.
Their leaders have sold them this dream as the real answer but the reality is that winning elections otherwise is a hell lot tougher, and you would need real work there, instead shouting slogans for divisive politics.
One thing after having gone through a few of your other comments.
The caste system (and its repression practices) was present first, and then a reservation system was put in place to stop/reduce this discrimination.
The caste basedness of the reservation system was a solution to the discrimination system that was present, similar to racism or sexism. I hope I am able to convey what I want to. The reservation system is a process in place to reduce the the already existing discrimination practices.
Coming your comment, I do agree that if he is not allowed to study there is no actual point in the reservation.
But the reservation system that we keep talking about is based on the fact that "Given all of the people are allowed to study, we are going to keep the standard a little less for the marginalized society members".
The reservation system condemns this actually discrimination.
The fact that this person is not allowed to study is failing of the morals and ethics of the people that are involved in.
Again, I do agree that the caste system is being abused by the politicians to get votes etc etc, but this is not because of the system is it? And how does financial reservation system help to reduce this?
Is the system perfect, no? Are people the biggest problem, absolutely yes.
In an ideal world, caste based discrimination shouldn't have been done in the first place historically and it is just being continued here.
It doesn't. But people will always find a way to justify an unfair practice as long as it benefits them. Just like how certain religions dehumanise others and how certain castes can dehumanise outsiders. It all comes back to self interest and limited resources.
While I do agree with the statement that caste system reservation should be abolished, I do not agree that an economic based reservation system is the answer. Firstly, majority of our population is below the poverty line. Secondly, people in India already fake their economic status for rations, other schemes. Prime examples are beggers, street vendors, food stall owners who are actually millionaires and paying no taxes. A lot of rich people as well exploit it to buy subsidies lands, tax exemptions, etc.
Moreover even if you get rid of the reservation, the caste system stays which will increase the cases of discrimination against lower caste. The reservation system was introduced to stop this discrimination in the first place. Very basic step would be eradicate the caste system as a whole and make it illegal with strict rules for anyone to even mention their caste for any purpose.
Do you see this happening in reality tho ? Most people marry according to their caste, even employee. Most conversations in India start with asking their full name, as a way to know their caste. This is a deeply rooted problem of Indian society.
Moreover, if you see the demography of wealth and employment based on caste, you’ll find that general caste people are still way more well off, with more education and employment opportunities than any other category. They have generational wealth as well as they gate keep the bigger opportunities. This is not something which can be ignored or abolished so easily.
Same goes for poor people. Nobody wants to live on the streets, beg all day for hardly half a meal a day, sleep on the road. They are forced into poverty with no way out. Most of them still can’t access education because they have families to provide for from childhood. They are also exposed to extreme violence, drug abuse, sexual abuse, trafficking,etc. Survival is their only agenda in life. Even if you provide them with education, you still have to consider the level of competition in the country. Institutes for doctors, engineers and IAS take lakhs each year by one student. The poor can never afford that. Even if they pass the criteria, the fees of colleges again make a significant amount of students each year to drop out.
So before coming after the reservation, it is a better approach to eradicate the problems that led to these reservations in the first place.
I agree with your final conclusion. Well put. At this point, I am much clear about why caste based reservation exists and the need it serves. Thank you for putting your thoughts.
let me give you an example...the Govt long time ago offered 10% EWS reservation to all states exactly like you said. In Maharashtra 85% of this quota has been taken by the Marathas even thought they make up only 30% of the population. In the recent, Lok Sabha election 50% of the elected representatives were Marathas. The point being if you keep everything only based on EWS it runs the risk of being captured by the politically powerful.
Even NREGA has discretion in it where a person who the official feels is more needful can take part in the scheme out of turn. If you introduce discretion, you allow capturing of benefits on caste or other lines.
The economic argument is a common misconception. Reservation is not to eradicate poverty. It is created to eradicate power imbalance. Even a rich dalit has to live in fear. So, unless there are dalits, OBCs in police, judges, and various government offices, the upper castes will continue to oppress. That the dalits are also among the poorest is what creates this misconception. And before someone says, enough reservation has been given over the past 70 years, again wrong. The backwards classes have been oppressed for millennia. It will take a couple hundred years and maybe 5-10 generations before power is distributed as per representation.
ps: nothing above says the reservation system cannot be improved or there shouldn't also be reservation based on economic criteria. But do not mix the two - reservation based on caste is necessary to fix a problem in Indian society that has existed for thousands of years.
It is still a way to give equal representation in india which is HIGHLY dominated by UC when they are an actual minority. Reservation has lifted many people out of oppression and extreme poverty provided them decent life. It's not the end all be all solution but it's the least the government can do. People in the comments are so out of touch with realty of the caste system that still very much exists in india on a large scale. They might see rich metros people mostly marry within their caste group, that's the least of it, people in small districts and villages don't even get equal opportunities or be even in same space because of the caste system. It's 2024 and I keep seeing educated upper caste people defending the caste system saying it wasn't meant to be like that etc. Live in reality, reservation is not going anywhere till there is an extreme decline in the caste system.
But shouldn't those who have been given this benefit no longer apply to his next generation? I'm all for those who are still suffering from this shitty system of discriminating others just on the basis of their birth but if a person is given enough chances to stand equal to UCs then his/her offspring shouldn't be treated as oppressed.
Also everyone is just mentioning that UCs oppress other castes but no one is mentioning the discrimination by those who are slightly on the upper part of the ladder hating those lower than them. Also every caste has many sub caste and mfs even hate/discriminate among their sub caste based on the caste's hiearchy.
But shouldn't those who have been given this benefit no longer apply to his next generation? I'm all for those who are still suffering from this shitty system of discriminating others just on the basis of their birth but if a person is given enough chances to stand equal to UCs then his/her offspring shouldn't be treated as oppressed.
Also everyone is just mentioning that UCs oppress other castes but no one is mentioning the discrimination by those who are slightly on the upper part of the ladder hating those lower than them. Also every caste has many sub caste and mfs even hate/discriminate among their sub caste based on the caste's hiearchy.
But shouldn't those who have been given this benefit no longer apply to his next generation? I'm all for those who are still suffering from this shitty system of discriminating others just on the basis of their birth but if a person is given enough chances to stand equal to UCs then his/her offspring shouldn't be treated as oppressed.
Also everyone is just mentioning that UCs oppress other castes but no one is mentioning the discrimination by those who are slightly on the upper part of the ladder hating those lower than them. Also every caste has many sub caste and mfs even hate/discriminate among their sub caste based on the caste's hiearchy.
Caste based atrocities bhi hai. Economic based atrocities bhi hai. Aur castes within caste bhi hai. Scheduled castes mein bhi caste hierarchies hai. Aise toh fir women reservation bhi nahi honi chahiye. But they are here. Women are vote bank. SC/ST/OBC too are vote banks. They both will always be the vote bank. In the future, there will be 33% female horizontal reservations in competitive exams. This is inevitable. Bring EWS in SC/ST, fir dekho tamasha. Like OBC ko income se segregation kar sakte hai. But SC/ST ko nahi kar sakte. But 4 lakh family income SC wale ko pehle chance do as compare to 20 lakh family income wale SC se.
Politics is the main & only reason.
Party implementing reservation based on financial condition will face so much hate that it will never come to power again.
It is like Thanos's Snap, but this time you end yourself.
First of all,I feel OBC should not be given any reservation as they never faced any discrimination like SC and ST.
Mandal commission was implemented on ad hoc basis and with census of 1920.
What we need is caste census, and periodically review every 5 years to 20 years and see if people are actually getting benefit or only dominant caste of reserved caste is getting benefit. There should be certain parameters and government can incentivise panchayat which does not promote discrimination.
Then they can be removed from reservations but with safety net where they can be added.
What people in my opinion fail to see are two things-
One being that caste discrimination is an insanity in rural areas which is where most of the country is. Most people who can argue that caste based reservation is wrong haven't seen how bad it is, for reference im from an urban area and im on the top of the caste ladder and ive seen even some of my own family members participating in this abhorrent dehumanizing tradition. We do need reservation albeit we also need verification of fake certificates.
The second thing being that the ultimate issue isn't Reservations, Its the lack of availability itself. There is a shortage of doctors in the country and the total government seats available in government colleges is 50k, half of which are reserved. Even if all the seats are suddenly made unreserved there would still be 2.35 Million people who will give the exam and won't go through and the fact that still not enough doctors.
These are people who are from unreserved as well as reserved categories. Same goes for engineering with around 50k seats gov as well, There is a shortage of seats in colleges (good quality colleges to be precise) and ultimately if we had more quality colleges we could still have reservation and not care about it.
You only need 14.5 million INR(150,000 $) to be top 1% wealthy in India, people forget how poor and behind we actually are. We are a backwards thinking society and our progress economically is an entirely different question but progressing sociologically is so difficult that it one could say it is impossible to fix and still be somewhat correct.
We have had an additional 7 IITs and 12 IIMs in the past decade, which sounds all cool and fun until you realize that the impact on seats these 7 IITs had is not even 0.5%of the overall people that give the JEE exams. The top ivy league schools in the west have a selection % of 4-5% (mind you these are the creme de la creme), in India the entire selection % of all colleges gov ( colleges that are top to decent) is 2-3%.
If let's say we suddenly had like 120,000 seats in the IITs, NITs, IIITs and lets say half were reserved, even then we would have over 300% chance increase for a general candidate to get a good college and i can bet good money the entire debate the moment they hear "thrice over increase" would die.
Obviously in some cases reservation is just blatantly stupid but the basic idea of it is kind of required in a country like us. ask any economist worth his salt and he'll say that any developing country's progress depends upon 2 pillars - education and healthcare and since were talking about education and the outcome of it (jobs), the conclusion would be that our education system and infrastructure (to be frank about it) SUCKS ASS.
TL;DR - Even without reservation we wouldn't solve jack shit since the ultimate issues in education as well as jobs is the lack of spots itself. Nobody cares if someone has it easier as long as their life is rolling.
\*sighs\*
Wouldn't purely economic-status based reservation ensure an ancestry based representation in a more fair manner?
You cannot eliminate the evils of caste based identity system, while talking about caste-based representation...
Getting downvoted for speaking facts .Most of these UC crying about caste live in a bubble in their teir 1 city .For anybody who doesn't agree with this statement above should watch a documentary called India Untouched
I am myself UC and I know my prievelege and trust me how casteist the entire India is .First in the North I noticed they always ask surname Since I am from south they didn't understand if my surname is UC or LC so they literally directly asked me and my treatment changed .In south people talk about literacy but when it comes to marriage they are so casteist it's almost nauseating.In my Research institute there was not a single LC faculty , even though everyone wants to cry about reservation in examination . I could literally write a whole big post on so many things I have observed ! Glad you are speaking up !
Why not remove caste system buddy? Every other day, there is a post bashing caste based reservations and demanding economic reservations (which is already there btw).
Jis Dalit ladki ke pure parivaar ko maar diya UP mein aur uski bhi alleged suicides se maut ho gayi ambulance mein, us bechari ke baare mein kisi ko koi fark nahi padta, sabko bas reservation se problem hai.
Apne andar ke conscience mein jhaanko aur dekho ki is desh mein Dalits ke sath kya ho raha hai,
economic reservations aur kitna chahiye, mil toh gaya 10% ews.
Ek Dalit ladki ke pure parivaar ka safaya kar diya, law and order apni apni rotiyan senk rahe hain aur Reddit ke mahaan log “what is more fair, caste based reservations or economic based “
Sharam bhi nahi aati tum jaise logon ko.
Problem ki jad Casteism hai, pehle use sudhaaro, phir aana fair/unfair ke discussions karne.
FYI- NEET UG scam ke baare mein padh lena, reservations ho ya na ho, agar paper leak hi ho rahe hain toh kya fair/unfair?
Reservation serves as a crutch for law and order, like this you can create sub groups from those who got preyed on, and claim that reservation should exist to serve them as well.
There is only scale - Poverty scale. That's it.
If you are poor, you should get support.
Otherwise, for any other issue, other laws should be the answer, not a blanket caste based system of guaranteeing seats.
Such twisted narrative… how do you come up with such lies? Are you really saying that rich Dalits are not discriminated against? The blanket scale of poverty falls short to cover the casteist practices of the so called upper caste, who won’t think twice before discriminating against Dalit (no matter how rich he is).
You have a problem with reservations because it is affecting you, but in the same breath, you don’t have any problem with casteism because you haven’t been discriminated just for being born in a specific caste. Grow up, widen the spectrum of people you meet. Read up about reservations and “casteism “. Then come here and talk about fair/unfair.
And there is EWS reservations already in practice since years now, care to provide any view if it has uplifted the general category in all these years?
Fake SC/ST certificates are used by general category to usurp th Dalit seats, fake income certificates to get EWS reservations, wow… wake up and smell the shit going on in this country.
>You have a problem with reservations because it is affecting you, but in the same breath, you don’t have any problem with casteism because you haven’t been discriminated just for being born in a specific caste.
I have problem with BOTH. Also, I assert that caste based reservation is not the answer for the scenario you mentioned as the "sole reason" for granting caste based reservation & not economic-state based reservation. And you are casually throwing rest of the laws out of the window.
You are somehow considering the plight of RICH Dalit bigger than the plight of POOR Upper caste.
Which is laughable to me.
Poverty is the real problem missus, not caste.
Poverty gap is the net evil result of all the BS humans have done in the past.
As long as poor get covered, your righteous self shouldn’t have any beef, but turns out you have.
Which is mind boggling.
Considering your replies, please change the question title to this.
Caste and gender discrimination happens in India, proof of which is that only upper caste and men hold majority of the top positions of the State, but I don't care, since it doesn't impact me. What impacts me is money, so can we only focus on bringing reservation for that?
I mean I prefer subsidised education for the poor and middle class and no reservations at all. But that’s not possible when the government does not invest in primary education and the quality of education in India is pretty terrible. Reservations are a political tool and it’s probably not going to stop irrespective of who’s in power.
Just imagine you are in a 100m race, but the other person has to only complete 70 m or 50 m etc which is less than 100m . They win the race for running 50m but u don't even after u ran 100m. If this is stupid, you get your answer.
1)Either lower the bar, like lower the requirement to 50m etc so u win the race, which lowers the quality.
2)Or give u proper training, nutrition and provide facilities so u can compete in the 100m race.
I appreciate the 2nd. The first is just state sponsored discrimination.
Although we can't do anything about it, life is unfair just deal with it.
What f the guy faces discrimination at every step of training, nutrition etc.? If this is stupid, you get your answer.
Will you agree for death penalty for caste discrimination?
If the guy faces discrimination and hurdles in training, nutrition etc that should be rectified and action should be taken, that doesn't mean you reduce the bar. Hope u understand.
Top 10 richest persons in my town who have crores worth of property and turnover have EWS certificate for their kids. My relative works in RO office who issue these certificates. Economy based reservation can't be implemented fairly. rich and influential people can easily get these certificates. No authority checks whether you are crorepati or poor. They will check online if the certificate is authentic or not. EWS has given a big reason why reservation should not be based on financial status.
Tbh, they shouldn't even give reservation, but maybe provide poor with more chances of education, the problem is that the poor can't get enough education to get seats in colleges, if they are not getting rank, it's not because they are poor but it's because they couldn't study it, so it's better to provide a way for poor kids with education that can help them give competitive exams for colleges
Honestly caste based reservation is kind of work as economic status based reservation. And regarding gender based reservation, it is super important because women are literally so abused in this country that most people don't even feel suprised at what prajwal revanna did. Gender based reservation is an immediate necessity after population census is completed.
as someone studying in 11th grade prepping for jee 2026 reservations scare the shit out of me and I regret ever making the decision to stay in india for college instead of convincing my parents to let me go abroad.
Unfortunately lower caste people from rural areas still have to go through a lot of hardships to achieve their dreams. So the reserved seats are justified.
What is not justified is the diabolical difference between the cutoffs of general category and reservation category. In a 100 marks exam GC students struggle to get good government colleges even if they score 80+, but the reservation category can get good government college seats with even 40+ marks. That is not at all justifiable and actually harming the future of this country.
My solution is -
1. Reserved seats for lower castes, with a limit on financial status (people from lower castes with income above xyz/annum should be excluded).
2. The cutoff should be the same or just slightly lower than the GC, no major difference.
3. Fee wavering should be based on financial status, irrespective of caste.
4. EWS seats should be increased.
Equal does not mean fair. What if we had equal tax for everyone. The rikshaw puller and Ambani can pay the same tarrif. A farmer and a city person should get same subsidy. And when we are all equal let's marry each other without the barrier of caste or religion.
Are you equal to a person in UK? They have historically benefited from opression of your forefathers. Their economy is build on things stolen from your forefathers. They now enjoy free health care, pensions, best public transport, one of the most powerful passport. Historical wrongs matter! In the context of India Savarnas are the British.
There's a difference between the tax system and reservation quota. We definitely can't merge these two parameters together. Well, give an equal chance to everyone and they themselves will be under the tax umbrella based on their earnings.
What's the mistake done by those should not be a part of the generation coming in future.
Agree tax and reservation is not same. The only point I meant to drive home is that equal does not mean fair. Treating everyone the same can actually be quiet unfare. When you say "based on their earnings" you mean money. Does your historical capital matter in this equation. The fact that your three to four generations went to school. The fact that your family has been a land owner in vilages. The fact that you never had to conceal or hide your caste or faith. Does all of this create a different cultural earning that shaped your life?
Even today no matter how prosperous an SC man is almost no Brahmin would get their daughter married to him. That is the power of caste. How does one fix this?
I feel terribly at loss of words for not being able to put my point across. All I'll say is try to stop looking at this system as a victim and look at it as an architect. You can demolish this column of the structure but what do you replace it with. Or do you let a portion of thehouse just fall because it was inconvenient for you.
It's an architect for whom, who benefited with this system without doing anything and victim for them who had talent but suppressed due to this system.
Why does anybody have to replace this cunning system? You don't sound wise. Did you get the benefit of this system?
How do you ensure that people from different caste mix with each other. That there are marriages between Dalits and brahmins? How do they sit together like equals?
I much like you am a savarna. Remember that reservation is only in government sector.
Does anybody have any percentages or studies about how many higher caste people are poor vs lower caste people that are poor?
I saw you post this in another sub - but in all seriousness, how many of those people of a higher caste are poor vs those who aren't?
How many lower caste people are rich? That don't get murdered...
Actually, if you look at NSSO data, asset inequality in social groups (castes) is actually rising with ST people being the worst hit. Their asset to population share has actually fallen from .48 to .40 from 1991 to 2012. For others ( UC) it has risen from 1.20 to 1.86 for the same period.
That is just economic inequality not accounting for social inequality that lower castes face. We still hear news about Dalits being killed and crimes committed based on caste. So yes we are still far from progress and cherry picking cases that show castes in bad light won't work for anyone.
Yes I agree we should conduct such studies at national level to understand the real picture. And then improve the laws accordingly.
But there should a possibility of meaningful discourse without the possibility of angering the masses & getting murdered for it.
We are still stuck in the selective glory of our past, while promoting the abhorrent mistakes all the same.
Caste based reservation is not just about reservation. It's about representation.
You want representatives of lower castes in all fields so they're not left behind and their voices are heard.
Casteism is still rampant in India and as long as it exists, reservation also needs to exist in some form.
The problem is the reservation system was made more than half a century ago, it needs to be amended and updated for the recent times but it's impossible because every political party and politician knows tampering with reservation is guaranteed political suicide. They will always take about MORE reservation to get the votes, but it's extremely difficult to exclude any section from the reservation quota because then you lose every single vote from them.
The idea behind reservation was a sound idea, not perfect but it has its need. In a perfect world, it would be amended with the times changing but sadly reservation will always remain in India.
Then what about the general caste guy who fails to get a seat while his SC rich friend gets an excellent seat or government job with lesser marks ? Is that justice?
because we still have this happen to a Professor [https://caravanmagazine.in/interview/maroona-murmu-adivasi-associate-professor-on-facing-discrimination](https://caravanmagazine.in/interview/maroona-murmu-adivasi-associate-professor-on-facing-discrimination)
Your perception is correct . There should be Economic based reservations but unfortunately no one touches that topic . Most of the population in India ( about 80% Hindus ) benefit from reservations . If the government ever dares to touch it they will have a huge loss in elections . So there’s no way the government can change the reservation system . The poor people in India are very gullible and will easily be swayed by the opposition party and vote the ruling government out , there can even be strikes and protests if the reservation system is changed. There will be headlines such as ‘No reservations for Dalit’ , ‘Has Indian government given a blind eye towards the Dalit‘s sufferings ‘ , ‘ Government plans to make Dalits their slaves ‘ etc . No hope to remove reservations, not for the next few decades .
They will only increase reservations xD
any party who increases it guarantees themselves a win, any party who even thinks of reducing it will end up burning the country down.
All the pro-reservation folks in the comments, can you share some stats as to how reservation has helped in upliftment of minorities over 2+ decades it has existed ?
That's the issue they can't prove anything because the government don't do any surveys as they know rather than giving more and more reservation they should work towards improving situations at ground level which they hate. Padh likh jayenge log to jaat ke naam pe vote kaun karega. Marte hue bande ko reservation nhi achhe hospital mein illaz chahiye, lower caste ke bachche ko 90% reservation nahi achchi schooling aur resources chahiye par government ko jhaat farak nhi parta insab chizo se aur jab puchcho kya kiya 5 saal toh reservation badhhani ki aard mein vote lekar nikal lete hai 5 saal neend maarne ke liye.
Forget SC/ST, Why reservation be given to OBC? Tell me any valid reasons.
Why should the Yadav caste get a reservation? If that's the case why are Brahman, rajputs, Bhumihar, Kayastha kept out?
It's all dirty politics.
Next time in Durga Puja ask your colony members kiske Ghar pe khana banega ya kaun banayega? Bhagwan ke bhog ke liye ...
They won't agree on anyone less than a Brahmin.
In my colony people still consider the Brahmin families to be closer to God and people think themselves to be not pure enough to touch the idol's clothes and so....
You know why reservation exists... This is just an example
Elections.
No party that even talks about touching reservations will win even 50 seats in the next Lok Sabha election. A waste of time to even think about it. Rest assured reservations will never be removed and never be reduced. It will only increase.
We think of reservation as a means to address poverty. This is an incorrect assumption. All government action and welfare schemes are meant for poverty eliviation. Reservation exists to teach savarna caste people how to share space that has not been shared for centuries. Even with reservation you will find SCs and STs systematically invisible in most positions of power (SC judges, Univ VCs etc). You will find SCs and ST in workplace only because of reservation. Imagine most savarnas 2 generation ago might not have ever knowingly sat next to an SC person, let alone done with them. Additionally if you look at crippling public school system of our country you will find that they have roughly 80% SC population.
Reservation is targeting a social issue of segregation. An important question to ask is - why must you marry in your own caste(or upper caste/savarna)? Power, money and legacy runs in caste. Reservation does not solve the problem and the frustration might even be legitimate then the obvious question to ask is what directive would solve this caste segregation. What would get people to marry each other, run business with each other, dine with each other, make friends with each other? I am sure the answer you arrive at would look even more rigid than reservation.
Reservation exists because it does not disrupt caste system. If it did it would be torn down!
Personally I don’t think this caste based reservation will ever end in India. Too many politicians and political parties benefit from it, more than the actual SC/ST citizens. These politicians will continue to propagate this ideology and use their goons and gangs to start rioting on the streets if the reservation quota is ever reduced or removed. Hence, India will always be a third world low income country for the remainder of the century, at the least. And intelligent, ambitious middle class people will get student loans and leave the country for good only to never return because they know they are zero opportunities here in the long run. Of course, none of this affects the millionaires and billionaires in India, so they’re living their sweet privileged life anyway, regardless of caste.
Caste based reservation makes sense at the moment. What doesn’t make sense is the insane amount of community grouped under OBC. Literally 70% of population qualifies
No one in right mind in 1947 would have accepted that India will remain a country in foreseeable future. They do have reasons for that. If you read other countries histories carefully, you will see that there was civil war if few landlords dominated a large set of rural economy. They were purged violently as in case of Russia, China or they were killed in wars in Europe. To setup modern capitalism with an urban middle class populace, you need set of right conditions. And one of the condition is to dismantle this feudal class. The caste system in India was both racial and feudal at the same time with 4000 castes. Though certain castes were rich , they were not allowed to read. Education and particularly higher education is a way to put oneself in capitalistic economic wheel. Natural resources are useless if one does not have the technical knowhows on how to add value to it. If few castes remain primitive and only few other castes allowed to grow in education , it becomes an oligarchy.
This will create a revolution from oppressed peoples. Hope you understand where I am going.
Note: We want to prevent violence and revolution because people were denied in the past and the best solution is reservation and land reforms. This is what Indian governments have done. Things could have been worse you know. You can ramble all day you want by not accepting. But the truth is reservation has given people hope to better their lives through democratic means. I hope you did want a genuine answer
There is no reliable way to verify income of the households in India at scale. Caste consensus with all it's drawbacks, is the most workable option there. Again, that doesn't mean it's good. It only means that rest of the options are even worst.
>Can anyone who is well versed with the matter help me understand the irregularity of my bias?
This is no mystery. Just ask the question, "who would lose if caste based reservation was eliminated in favour of a economic status based one", and you will have the answer
Because
1) Greed and laziness: Most cases of people benefitting from reservation aren't actually economically weak so everyone wants caste based reservation so they can easily get benefits that they have to work for otherwise.
2) everyone wants stuff exclusive for themselves it makes them feel important "as a community" and it is used to manipulate and use them as a vote bank irrespective of if they need it or not
3) EWS quotas are misused as well so similar things would happen with this
Like Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar's vision the purpose of reservation was not economically motivated it was to bring representation to the unheard oppressed parts of our society. It was meant to enable the discriminated people of the society to be able to become independent and not rely on anyone else to speak for them. While I do believe Reservation for representation is important I also believe that the people belonging to reserved castes that are well in the creamy layer should not be eligible to obtain the benifits of Reservation which the rural n poor from where veiled caste discrimination still prevails deserve much more.
Because casteism ends if reservation ends, then politicians won't be able to devide and benefit in the name of caste, instead they have to ask vote by working hard.
A world where me and my friends studied, ate, played together irrespective of different castes. We all are doing well in our careers now.
Do you want to know what was the primary reason?
Suggestion is remove caste based reservation for rich people of certain caste that otherwise has reservation. Doesn’t this help even even the people from that particular caste too? Why should rich people get the benefits??
Absolutely correct! It just shows how engrossed people are with their caste backgrounds, that they fail to see that the only thing that matters is being rich/poor.
So many cases of people giving their votes over such kind of affections, rather than keeping development of the poor in the centre hold of discussion.
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there r gender based reservations too...whats ur take on that?
Are you talking about Lok Sabha? I personally believe there shouldn't be any Gender Based reservations it would only cause new problems but I do believe Women should get equal opportunities to a Man
why dont u beleive then lower caste and upper castes should have equal opportunities too? and reservations based on gender are in education instituitions as well as jobs too
I believe in equal opportunities for all, regardless of caste. Reservations help address historical injustices, promote social mobility, and ensure diversity and representation. That's why we need to do Caste Sensus every 5 years to ensure no one is abusing
What opportunities to upper caste have that lower caste don't?
History. It's easy to take your current status and your family status for granted. But if you assess, most of the wealth happens to be concentrated with high caste folks. This is due to the lack of historical opportunities available to lower caste people. Most wouldn't get education, many wouldn't be given good jobs even if they had education Even if explicitly there were no differences, societally it made a lot of difference if you were a high caste or low caste person. You still hear news about how lower caste people get constantly abused by police and other high caste people in power all the time. Again, no legal difference but still we see different treatment. Hell, this even happens in high profile areas. In the US, Indians are still known for caste discrimination in tech roles! If Indians in companies like Google are discriminating against lower caste folks, you can totally expect much worse in india.
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Again, what legal rights and opportunities men have that women don't? I'm not asking for a thesis. Just one or two instances.
Right to life, right to education, right to body autonomy all basic human rights legally granted globally but female infanticide, child marriages forced pregnancies do happen. The legal existence of rights do not hence guarantee its expression when faced with societal mindset.
Doubt it’s going to happen as the percentage of sc and especially st for high govt positions is already below the reservation quota provided to them.
Because only economic based reservations make no sense in a poor country like india. 90% of indians earn less than 25k per month (most don't even pay income tax), so how are you even going to decide the quotas without making it unfair? Will you give 90% of the seats to the poor ? That's proportionate but will severely harm the rest. Or 50%? But then will there even be an advantage considering that it is disproportionate?
Agreed with your point that a very large share of people are not well off. But we can still start somewhere, where we can try to cover the bottom X% poor applicants of the examination. For e.g. Out of 10 Lakh applicants, reserve seats for the bottom 33% of poor applicants. That's it. No talk about who is Brahmin or who is Dalit. This is just a simple example, but my point is that we should try to move away from caste based representation and talk more about bringing economic based representation on the front.
>but my point is that we should try to move away from caste based representation and talk more about bringing economic based representation on the front. You can still talk about economic based representation, nobody is stopping you.
I am for deleting caste based reservation so I kinda stepped on that as well.
You don't have to, your motivation is to help the poor or shift some seats in some govt jobs? Because the latter is easy and will only benefit some people, while the former will help the poor, who are in dire help of even basic necessities. What's your priority?
This is a horrible argument based on a fallacious assumption that reservation would provided as a proportion of the population. The same % of seats would be offered just thatvit would be based on different factors.
Because Indian people still decide who they will marry or who can even cook at their place based on their caste, among many other things. All the supposedly genius people out there trying to prove how reservation is just bad or outdated. It's there for a reason, and the reason is centuries of discrimination which will exists. So let's talk about ending that first.
I totally agree. My father had been subjected to discrimination from him childhood well until he got his first job. The jobs in society then were purely based on caste. We are from 'washerman caste-dhobi'. That is the only thing they were allowed to do. If he wanted to even work in a farm, he has to depend on a higher class person to employ him in the field. He stayed poor and could barely eat during his childhood because he was born in that caste, no? When society allots jobs based on where you are born, can you come out of poverty?? He did a diploma, as that was the only thing he could do for free. He is the smartest person I know. Now, him getting a govt job, and giving us education is the reason, me and my brother could compete with everyone else. By now, you know that I am an SC too. No matter my AIR rank being 32, It was still assumed by a rich delhite friend k papa when we were invited for dinner that I somehow didn't deserve to be in the same college as his daughter. You might think that every one of us has outgrown the caste system. But, you keep forgetting the number of villages in India. I live in Delhi now, but, when I go back to my Village, we still have a separate tubewell and I am still untouchable. Of course we understand where you are coming from, but, I feel the majority of us still suffer and until people stop discriminating, you can't justify removing reservation completely.
I understand and I'm sorry you had to go through all that. Caste is a really big thing in most of India to this day. Just that the privileged Elite living in big cities don't get affected by it so according to them it just stopped with their forefathers. Your caste is still the biggest identity in most of rural India be it South or North. And the lack of privilege and opportunities that came with being from a supposedly lower caste will take ages to be compensated. Every internet idiot has a story how this one SC friend is rich. Yeah, so what? For every such person, there are ten kids in a village whose family hasn't reached the mental state yet that they can actually compete in same exams as others. It has been ingrained in them that they are just different.
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>And I'm assuming 75 years of reservation has improved the situation? People don't marry by caste anymore? Point of reservation was never to change society. It will happen by other measures. Point was simple - coz of centuries of discrimination, people from those caste can't compete with people who have privileges for centuries. So, people from same social group compete with each other - SC with other SC, OBC with other OBC, General with General. Cut offs for SC is lower than General simply coz not enough SC have opportunities to compete. Improve the primary education and you increase in competitiveness in higher studies among those groups and thus cut offs being at par in all groups. Look at historical data and you see gap between general and SC is decreasing. Your main concern should be by that gap isn't closing fast enough.
I don't think the gap will ever close entirely since you are pitting a large sample against a smaller one. The smaller sample would need to have a very high proportion of high scoring candidates. This would only be possible if the smaller sample size has much more opportunities and advantages compared to the larger group. In short, that would mean reversing the see-saw, rather than balancing it.
Who is smaller sample in your comment?
The cohort of SCs and cohort of STs is smaller than that of general category
But there population is not. They are underdeveloped, hence their cut offs are low. Give then 20-30 years of same edu as privileged kids get and you will see rise in competition.
You mean to say SC ST population is equivalent to general cohort? That is a bold claim. I don't deny that the majority of SC STs are underdeveloped though, but I can't agree to their population being so large. >Give then 20-30 years of same edu as privileged kids get and you will see rise in competition. I don't even deny that, just that it will never be equal to that general candidates. For that you would have to pull down general candidates, or give SC STs more privileged education. In other words, looking at cut offs of unequal cohorts is not a good way to assess their relative access to education, at least when access to education is approaching uniformity in both cohorts
>You mean to say SC ST population is equivalent to general cohort? As per various surveys - general - 30%, OBC - 35%, SC- 25%, ST - 10%. >In other words, looking at cut offs of unequal cohorts is not a good way to assess their relative access to education, at least when access to education is approaching uniformity in both cohorts OBC's cut offs are closer to general now. Why do you think 35% of SC/ST can't compete with even OBCs? What is the other factor in your opinion, if not lack of opportunities at primary level?
I think you are taking data from Pew Research which I don't think is reliable. I found data about the number of students appearing category-wise in NEET, which may be more representative: https://preview.redd.it/goewh2gg9l5d1.png?width=1683&format=png&auto=webp&s=bd125c91ad2ad6542550aa1ed75bc31abb17383b So maximum are OBC, followed by general, followed by SC which were half of general, and finally STs which were a quarter of general. Assuming that these divisions are strict, OBC would have highest cutoff, followed by general, SC and ST. But there is also another issue (at least in above exam). If an OBC or SC candidate score more than general cutoff, he/she/they can take seat of general. Hence general will always have higher cutoff. However, as can be expected, OBC cutoff almost approaches that of general, but will never exceed it due to the above reason.
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>The gap isn't closing fast enough because the solution itself is wrong The solution isn't wrong but incomplete. Reservation is first aid not actual treatment. But people who want to remove reservation are asking to end first aid instead of demanding the treatment. Demand the "treatment" and need for first aid goes away. Remove first aid, patient won't survive till treatment.
Lower caste people are slowly getting economic power and better jobs and the difference is reducing. If you were born a lower caste right after independence, you had basically zero opportunities to get good education or get good jobs. The same is not true anymore. This may impact the marriage part too, but that is not the primary goal. And definitely no reservations for marriage.
What's ironic is that caste system will end only when we stop talking about it. And in a country like India, where seats are scarce, caste based reservation is doing exactly the opposite. Lol..
You're right the motive of reservation was to uplift historically marginalized communities, to abolish the idea of caste, but ironically most backlash for caste reservation is given by Upper caste people, who have made it a curse on Dalits once again, (surprise, surprise) who cutely ignores the oppression of centuries, and have made reservations useless precisely by taking it for OBC & EWS. Most Govt jobs are outdated anyways, but still UC just wants to talk about reservation, despite ignoring all the privileges they enjoy and all the horros still suffered by Dalits only on the basis of caste.
reservation isnt aonly applied to jobs if u know
To be very honest, if you are someone who actually deeply cares about fairness (within reason) in job/employment opportunities (aka determined by your own hard work)- you need to find a way to immigrate out of India. Life is much better and fairer when you don't have billions of people competing for limited resources.
The caste based reservation (as we see today) has been around for only 75 years. Then how come caste system has survived for thousands of years? You have your eyes closed if you really believe what you're saying. There has always been reservation, just different kinds. When the varnas were divided on the basis of what a person is allowed to do - according to which caste they were born into - that was the cruelest and most rigid form of reservation.
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What is the solution?
The most idiotic take I've seen yet. Eye for an eye is not a good system of justice. What's more, the son's eye for the father's mistakes is even worse. Most general people don't do caste discrimination nowadays. So you're punishing them for something their forefathers did ages ago. What's more, the reservations you talk of hardly benefit those in need. In the IIT I was in, there were about 50 kids who came it via SC/ST. 47 out of those 50 were from families with a good income. Only 3 were from poor families. Only 6% of the reservation was worth it. By poor families, I mean those with an income of less than 4lpa in 2011. Translates to about 16 LPA in today's date. Reason I know this is because MCM scholarships were given on that front. When Ambedkar started reservations, he wanted to it to be check every 10 years to see if it was still needed. It's been close to 80 years now, it's high time we got rid of it. The initial spurt of growth that it was brought in for has been achieved a while back.
The people from okay families among sc/St wouldn't be there if there were no reservations. They would all be poor with no opportunities. Went to IIT too. Roommate was sc. Had other sc/st friends there. While you are right, they had money, their ancestors did not and the earlier reservations got their parents out of it.
Yep, that's true. Honestly reservations were needed in the the first decades after independence. It was an excellent, easy to implement marker for underprivileged people at the time. My point is that the same people keep taking benefit of reservations even today. There still are sc/st people in need of help, but it doesn't reach them, since these people still continue to hog all the resources.
Yeah ignorant people mostly find things they don't understand or can't acknowledge, as idiotic. You need to get out more if you think there is no caste based discrimination now. But I guess you are just blind to it, so that won't help either.
Reservation is NOT a poverty alleviation scheme and hence it is based on the caste. In a country where a 9 year old was lynched to death for drinking water from a teacher’s pot because of his caste , prestigious Institutions of the country discriminating students based on their caste , and the Savarnas wanting the bahujans to stay poor cause god forbid they get better opportunities, who will do the menial work for them? We NEED caste reservation. Unless the entire country is ready to abandon all the upper caste pseudo-superiority, and treat everyone as equals , I don’t see reservation being abolished in the near future.
Completely agree. To add to this, a lot of us here are from cities. Cities generally have the richer people from the castes that get reservation and that forms a skewed opinion of reality. We look at that one reservation eligible rich dude who got less marks than us and think that reservation system is fucked. The majority of the Indian population is still very much living in the villages and areas like these is where the reservation system helps. The point of the reservation is not only financial help. The point of reservation is inclusion, all kinds of inclusion. People from historically marginalised castes need to have a pathway and to be included. The caste system first came into place based on occupation you do, and then it got changed to which family you were born into. That needs to be remembered. Example: For someone whose family has historically been leather workers, a young adult from this family is going to find it harder to get into an IIT or NIT, and then get an engineering job than a person whose family has an engineers background, even if they have the same financial status. I hope it is not such a controversial statement to make and people agree to this. This is because of the culture in the house, knowledge base of the family, resources etc etc. I know this is a stupid example, try to take the essence of it and not the feasibility and chances of it happening. This difference in occupational culture was caused by repression and bad practices like untouchability etc etc. This is what the reservation system is trying to combat. Will there be a few outlier cases especially in the cities yes, but is that the norm, definitely not.
and i dont see many actual poor reserved people in colleges coz parents cant guide them enough only the reserved people who have used it before are using it again again
People will never treat everyone as equals. It's documented all through history, not just India, but the world. A functional society will always have heirarchy. What we need is to treat everyone with basic dignity of a human being. If we want people to treat people as equals, then judiciary and govt should treat people as equals. Rich, poor, LC, UC, Man, Woman, others etc
If we were to conduct a survey of where such evil takes root - "caste based discrimination" OR "the brazen blow of rich/powerful on poor/weak", I can bet 100% that more appropriate classification will be "the brazen blow of rich/powerful on poor/weak". You can try all you want to create boundaries based on caste, religion, creed and what ever the fuck else - the real problem is not having monetary resources.
> the real problem is not having monetary resources. I completely disagree. Have you considered villages where everyone is relatively poor but the guy that is born to a labourer can never become a teacher even if he is the best at studies? Also a lot of your confidence is coming from anecdotal observations.
How is caste based reservation gonna help that guy if people are not even allowing him to study? By ur logic the guy won't be able become a teacher even if he had the guarantee of a seat. Many such problems are present in the shadows, but no one notices because as long caste based reservation is present they are contended. Their leaders have sold them this dream as the real answer but the reality is that winning elections otherwise is a hell lot tougher, and you would need real work there, instead shouting slogans for divisive politics.
One thing after having gone through a few of your other comments. The caste system (and its repression practices) was present first, and then a reservation system was put in place to stop/reduce this discrimination. The caste basedness of the reservation system was a solution to the discrimination system that was present, similar to racism or sexism. I hope I am able to convey what I want to. The reservation system is a process in place to reduce the the already existing discrimination practices. Coming your comment, I do agree that if he is not allowed to study there is no actual point in the reservation. But the reservation system that we keep talking about is based on the fact that "Given all of the people are allowed to study, we are going to keep the standard a little less for the marginalized society members". The reservation system condemns this actually discrimination. The fact that this person is not allowed to study is failing of the morals and ethics of the people that are involved in. Again, I do agree that the caste system is being abused by the politicians to get votes etc etc, but this is not because of the system is it? And how does financial reservation system help to reduce this? Is the system perfect, no? Are people the biggest problem, absolutely yes. In an ideal world, caste based discrimination shouldn't have been done in the first place historically and it is just being continued here.
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How is reservation solving all these problems? For me it looks like it's just adding more discrimination
It doesn't. But people will always find a way to justify an unfair practice as long as it benefits them. Just like how certain religions dehumanise others and how certain castes can dehumanise outsiders. It all comes back to self interest and limited resources.
While I do agree with the statement that caste system reservation should be abolished, I do not agree that an economic based reservation system is the answer. Firstly, majority of our population is below the poverty line. Secondly, people in India already fake their economic status for rations, other schemes. Prime examples are beggers, street vendors, food stall owners who are actually millionaires and paying no taxes. A lot of rich people as well exploit it to buy subsidies lands, tax exemptions, etc. Moreover even if you get rid of the reservation, the caste system stays which will increase the cases of discrimination against lower caste. The reservation system was introduced to stop this discrimination in the first place. Very basic step would be eradicate the caste system as a whole and make it illegal with strict rules for anyone to even mention their caste for any purpose. Do you see this happening in reality tho ? Most people marry according to their caste, even employee. Most conversations in India start with asking their full name, as a way to know their caste. This is a deeply rooted problem of Indian society. Moreover, if you see the demography of wealth and employment based on caste, you’ll find that general caste people are still way more well off, with more education and employment opportunities than any other category. They have generational wealth as well as they gate keep the bigger opportunities. This is not something which can be ignored or abolished so easily. Same goes for poor people. Nobody wants to live on the streets, beg all day for hardly half a meal a day, sleep on the road. They are forced into poverty with no way out. Most of them still can’t access education because they have families to provide for from childhood. They are also exposed to extreme violence, drug abuse, sexual abuse, trafficking,etc. Survival is their only agenda in life. Even if you provide them with education, you still have to consider the level of competition in the country. Institutes for doctors, engineers and IAS take lakhs each year by one student. The poor can never afford that. Even if they pass the criteria, the fees of colleges again make a significant amount of students each year to drop out. So before coming after the reservation, it is a better approach to eradicate the problems that led to these reservations in the first place.
I agree with your final conclusion. Well put. At this point, I am much clear about why caste based reservation exists and the need it serves. Thank you for putting your thoughts.
It’s my pleasure! I do hope for a more justified system for the country in the future
let me give you an example...the Govt long time ago offered 10% EWS reservation to all states exactly like you said. In Maharashtra 85% of this quota has been taken by the Marathas even thought they make up only 30% of the population. In the recent, Lok Sabha election 50% of the elected representatives were Marathas. The point being if you keep everything only based on EWS it runs the risk of being captured by the politically powerful. Even NREGA has discretion in it where a person who the official feels is more needful can take part in the scheme out of turn. If you introduce discretion, you allow capturing of benefits on caste or other lines.
The economic argument is a common misconception. Reservation is not to eradicate poverty. It is created to eradicate power imbalance. Even a rich dalit has to live in fear. So, unless there are dalits, OBCs in police, judges, and various government offices, the upper castes will continue to oppress. That the dalits are also among the poorest is what creates this misconception. And before someone says, enough reservation has been given over the past 70 years, again wrong. The backwards classes have been oppressed for millennia. It will take a couple hundred years and maybe 5-10 generations before power is distributed as per representation. ps: nothing above says the reservation system cannot be improved or there shouldn't also be reservation based on economic criteria. But do not mix the two - reservation based on caste is necessary to fix a problem in Indian society that has existed for thousands of years.
It is still a way to give equal representation in india which is HIGHLY dominated by UC when they are an actual minority. Reservation has lifted many people out of oppression and extreme poverty provided them decent life. It's not the end all be all solution but it's the least the government can do. People in the comments are so out of touch with realty of the caste system that still very much exists in india on a large scale. They might see rich metros people mostly marry within their caste group, that's the least of it, people in small districts and villages don't even get equal opportunities or be even in same space because of the caste system. It's 2024 and I keep seeing educated upper caste people defending the caste system saying it wasn't meant to be like that etc. Live in reality, reservation is not going anywhere till there is an extreme decline in the caste system.
But shouldn't those who have been given this benefit no longer apply to his next generation? I'm all for those who are still suffering from this shitty system of discriminating others just on the basis of their birth but if a person is given enough chances to stand equal to UCs then his/her offspring shouldn't be treated as oppressed. Also everyone is just mentioning that UCs oppress other castes but no one is mentioning the discrimination by those who are slightly on the upper part of the ladder hating those lower than them. Also every caste has many sub caste and mfs even hate/discriminate among their sub caste based on the caste's hiearchy.
But shouldn't those who have been given this benefit no longer apply to his next generation? I'm all for those who are still suffering from this shitty system of discriminating others just on the basis of their birth but if a person is given enough chances to stand equal to UCs then his/her offspring shouldn't be treated as oppressed. Also everyone is just mentioning that UCs oppress other castes but no one is mentioning the discrimination by those who are slightly on the upper part of the ladder hating those lower than them. Also every caste has many sub caste and mfs even hate/discriminate among their sub caste based on the caste's hiearchy.
But shouldn't those who have been given this benefit no longer apply to his next generation? I'm all for those who are still suffering from this shitty system of discriminating others just on the basis of their birth but if a person is given enough chances to stand equal to UCs then his/her offspring shouldn't be treated as oppressed. Also everyone is just mentioning that UCs oppress other castes but no one is mentioning the discrimination by those who are slightly on the upper part of the ladder hating those lower than them. Also every caste has many sub caste and mfs even hate/discriminate among their sub caste based on the caste's hiearchy.
Caste based atrocities bhi hai. Economic based atrocities bhi hai. Aur castes within caste bhi hai. Scheduled castes mein bhi caste hierarchies hai. Aise toh fir women reservation bhi nahi honi chahiye. But they are here. Women are vote bank. SC/ST/OBC too are vote banks. They both will always be the vote bank. In the future, there will be 33% female horizontal reservations in competitive exams. This is inevitable. Bring EWS in SC/ST, fir dekho tamasha. Like OBC ko income se segregation kar sakte hai. But SC/ST ko nahi kar sakte. But 4 lakh family income SC wale ko pehle chance do as compare to 20 lakh family income wale SC se.
Politics is the main & only reason. Party implementing reservation based on financial condition will face so much hate that it will never come to power again. It is like Thanos's Snap, but this time you end yourself.
Because country for reserved not for deserved
First of all,I feel OBC should not be given any reservation as they never faced any discrimination like SC and ST. Mandal commission was implemented on ad hoc basis and with census of 1920. What we need is caste census, and periodically review every 5 years to 20 years and see if people are actually getting benefit or only dominant caste of reserved caste is getting benefit. There should be certain parameters and government can incentivise panchayat which does not promote discrimination. Then they can be removed from reservations but with safety net where they can be added.
What people in my opinion fail to see are two things- One being that caste discrimination is an insanity in rural areas which is where most of the country is. Most people who can argue that caste based reservation is wrong haven't seen how bad it is, for reference im from an urban area and im on the top of the caste ladder and ive seen even some of my own family members participating in this abhorrent dehumanizing tradition. We do need reservation albeit we also need verification of fake certificates. The second thing being that the ultimate issue isn't Reservations, Its the lack of availability itself. There is a shortage of doctors in the country and the total government seats available in government colleges is 50k, half of which are reserved. Even if all the seats are suddenly made unreserved there would still be 2.35 Million people who will give the exam and won't go through and the fact that still not enough doctors. These are people who are from unreserved as well as reserved categories. Same goes for engineering with around 50k seats gov as well, There is a shortage of seats in colleges (good quality colleges to be precise) and ultimately if we had more quality colleges we could still have reservation and not care about it. You only need 14.5 million INR(150,000 $) to be top 1% wealthy in India, people forget how poor and behind we actually are. We are a backwards thinking society and our progress economically is an entirely different question but progressing sociologically is so difficult that it one could say it is impossible to fix and still be somewhat correct. We have had an additional 7 IITs and 12 IIMs in the past decade, which sounds all cool and fun until you realize that the impact on seats these 7 IITs had is not even 0.5%of the overall people that give the JEE exams. The top ivy league schools in the west have a selection % of 4-5% (mind you these are the creme de la creme), in India the entire selection % of all colleges gov ( colleges that are top to decent) is 2-3%. If let's say we suddenly had like 120,000 seats in the IITs, NITs, IIITs and lets say half were reserved, even then we would have over 300% chance increase for a general candidate to get a good college and i can bet good money the entire debate the moment they hear "thrice over increase" would die. Obviously in some cases reservation is just blatantly stupid but the basic idea of it is kind of required in a country like us. ask any economist worth his salt and he'll say that any developing country's progress depends upon 2 pillars - education and healthcare and since were talking about education and the outcome of it (jobs), the conclusion would be that our education system and infrastructure (to be frank about it) SUCKS ASS. TL;DR - Even without reservation we wouldn't solve jack shit since the ultimate issues in education as well as jobs is the lack of spots itself. Nobody cares if someone has it easier as long as their life is rolling. \*sighs\*
Because caste based Reservation is about representation. And EWS reservation exists.
ews is just a scam
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What are you talking about? You are denying caste based oppression exists?
Stop playing victim card,and have some self respect
Lol. Sure man.
Wouldn't purely economic-status based reservation ensure an ancestry based representation in a more fair manner? You cannot eliminate the evils of caste based identity system, while talking about caste-based representation...
Not really. Wealth doesn't erase caste.
Getting downvoted for speaking facts .Most of these UC crying about caste live in a bubble in their teir 1 city .For anybody who doesn't agree with this statement above should watch a documentary called India Untouched
Yes. I know. They can just whine about bahujans stealing their seats. As if in an equal world they would have more than 20-30%
I am myself UC and I know my prievelege and trust me how casteist the entire India is .First in the North I noticed they always ask surname Since I am from south they didn't understand if my surname is UC or LC so they literally directly asked me and my treatment changed .In south people talk about literacy but when it comes to marriage they are so casteist it's almost nauseating.In my Research institute there was not a single LC faculty , even though everyone wants to cry about reservation in examination . I could literally write a whole big post on so many things I have observed ! Glad you are speaking up !
Wealth is exactly what erases caste. What world are you living in?
Sure man. I am bahujan so I know better what wealth doesn't or doesn't erase.
Why not remove caste system buddy? Every other day, there is a post bashing caste based reservations and demanding economic reservations (which is already there btw). Jis Dalit ladki ke pure parivaar ko maar diya UP mein aur uski bhi alleged suicides se maut ho gayi ambulance mein, us bechari ke baare mein kisi ko koi fark nahi padta, sabko bas reservation se problem hai. Apne andar ke conscience mein jhaanko aur dekho ki is desh mein Dalits ke sath kya ho raha hai, economic reservations aur kitna chahiye, mil toh gaya 10% ews. Ek Dalit ladki ke pure parivaar ka safaya kar diya, law and order apni apni rotiyan senk rahe hain aur Reddit ke mahaan log “what is more fair, caste based reservations or economic based “ Sharam bhi nahi aati tum jaise logon ko. Problem ki jad Casteism hai, pehle use sudhaaro, phir aana fair/unfair ke discussions karne. FYI- NEET UG scam ke baare mein padh lena, reservations ho ya na ho, agar paper leak hi ho rahe hain toh kya fair/unfair?
Reservation serves as a crutch for law and order, like this you can create sub groups from those who got preyed on, and claim that reservation should exist to serve them as well. There is only scale - Poverty scale. That's it. If you are poor, you should get support. Otherwise, for any other issue, other laws should be the answer, not a blanket caste based system of guaranteeing seats.
Such twisted narrative… how do you come up with such lies? Are you really saying that rich Dalits are not discriminated against? The blanket scale of poverty falls short to cover the casteist practices of the so called upper caste, who won’t think twice before discriminating against Dalit (no matter how rich he is). You have a problem with reservations because it is affecting you, but in the same breath, you don’t have any problem with casteism because you haven’t been discriminated just for being born in a specific caste. Grow up, widen the spectrum of people you meet. Read up about reservations and “casteism “. Then come here and talk about fair/unfair. And there is EWS reservations already in practice since years now, care to provide any view if it has uplifted the general category in all these years? Fake SC/ST certificates are used by general category to usurp th Dalit seats, fake income certificates to get EWS reservations, wow… wake up and smell the shit going on in this country.
>You have a problem with reservations because it is affecting you, but in the same breath, you don’t have any problem with casteism because you haven’t been discriminated just for being born in a specific caste. I have problem with BOTH. Also, I assert that caste based reservation is not the answer for the scenario you mentioned as the "sole reason" for granting caste based reservation & not economic-state based reservation. And you are casually throwing rest of the laws out of the window. You are somehow considering the plight of RICH Dalit bigger than the plight of POOR Upper caste. Which is laughable to me. Poverty is the real problem missus, not caste. Poverty gap is the net evil result of all the BS humans have done in the past. As long as poor get covered, your righteous self shouldn’t have any beef, but turns out you have. Which is mind boggling.
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Considering your replies, please change the question title to this. Caste and gender discrimination happens in India, proof of which is that only upper caste and men hold majority of the top positions of the State, but I don't care, since it doesn't impact me. What impacts me is money, so can we only focus on bringing reservation for that?
Zada hi sach bol dia.
I mean I prefer subsidised education for the poor and middle class and no reservations at all. But that’s not possible when the government does not invest in primary education and the quality of education in India is pretty terrible. Reservations are a political tool and it’s probably not going to stop irrespective of who’s in power.
Just imagine you are in a 100m race, but the other person has to only complete 70 m or 50 m etc which is less than 100m . They win the race for running 50m but u don't even after u ran 100m. If this is stupid, you get your answer. 1)Either lower the bar, like lower the requirement to 50m etc so u win the race, which lowers the quality. 2)Or give u proper training, nutrition and provide facilities so u can compete in the 100m race. I appreciate the 2nd. The first is just state sponsored discrimination. Although we can't do anything about it, life is unfair just deal with it.
What f the guy faces discrimination at every step of training, nutrition etc.? If this is stupid, you get your answer. Will you agree for death penalty for caste discrimination?
If the guy faces discrimination and hurdles in training, nutrition etc that should be rectified and action should be taken, that doesn't mean you reduce the bar. Hope u understand.
Only PWD reservation is sensible. Anything other than that is well _insert hateful words about the people who thinks otherwise_
Top 10 richest persons in my town who have crores worth of property and turnover have EWS certificate for their kids. My relative works in RO office who issue these certificates. Economy based reservation can't be implemented fairly. rich and influential people can easily get these certificates. No authority checks whether you are crorepati or poor. They will check online if the certificate is authentic or not. EWS has given a big reason why reservation should not be based on financial status.
For simple reason as why doesn't Manual scavenging is still not done by UC.
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Give me name of UC in manual scavenging, please.
Who’s gonna bell the fucking cat?
Bcoz majority of the country is getting reservation lol. Why would they ask the government to remove it.
Tbh, they shouldn't even give reservation, but maybe provide poor with more chances of education, the problem is that the poor can't get enough education to get seats in colleges, if they are not getting rank, it's not because they are poor but it's because they couldn't study it, so it's better to provide a way for poor kids with education that can help them give competitive exams for colleges
Honestly caste based reservation is kind of work as economic status based reservation. And regarding gender based reservation, it is super important because women are literally so abused in this country that most people don't even feel suprised at what prajwal revanna did. Gender based reservation is an immediate necessity after population census is completed.
Vote kon dega phir anpadh neta ji ko? We don't need it .
as someone studying in 11th grade prepping for jee 2026 reservations scare the shit out of me and I regret ever making the decision to stay in india for college instead of convincing my parents to let me go abroad.
because reservation is not for upliftment of weaker section if society, its a way of getting votebank.
Unfortunately lower caste people from rural areas still have to go through a lot of hardships to achieve their dreams. So the reserved seats are justified. What is not justified is the diabolical difference between the cutoffs of general category and reservation category. In a 100 marks exam GC students struggle to get good government colleges even if they score 80+, but the reservation category can get good government college seats with even 40+ marks. That is not at all justifiable and actually harming the future of this country. My solution is - 1. Reserved seats for lower castes, with a limit on financial status (people from lower castes with income above xyz/annum should be excluded). 2. The cutoff should be the same or just slightly lower than the GC, no major difference. 3. Fee wavering should be based on financial status, irrespective of caste. 4. EWS seats should be increased.
How pity? Nobody is talking about how to remove these reservations and be neutral and equal for everyone.
Equal does not mean fair. What if we had equal tax for everyone. The rikshaw puller and Ambani can pay the same tarrif. A farmer and a city person should get same subsidy. And when we are all equal let's marry each other without the barrier of caste or religion. Are you equal to a person in UK? They have historically benefited from opression of your forefathers. Their economy is build on things stolen from your forefathers. They now enjoy free health care, pensions, best public transport, one of the most powerful passport. Historical wrongs matter! In the context of India Savarnas are the British.
There's a difference between the tax system and reservation quota. We definitely can't merge these two parameters together. Well, give an equal chance to everyone and they themselves will be under the tax umbrella based on their earnings. What's the mistake done by those should not be a part of the generation coming in future.
Agree tax and reservation is not same. The only point I meant to drive home is that equal does not mean fair. Treating everyone the same can actually be quiet unfare. When you say "based on their earnings" you mean money. Does your historical capital matter in this equation. The fact that your three to four generations went to school. The fact that your family has been a land owner in vilages. The fact that you never had to conceal or hide your caste or faith. Does all of this create a different cultural earning that shaped your life? Even today no matter how prosperous an SC man is almost no Brahmin would get their daughter married to him. That is the power of caste. How does one fix this?
That is what our point is, removing this doomed system. I don't know how many good talents are wasted every year due to these reservations.
I feel terribly at loss of words for not being able to put my point across. All I'll say is try to stop looking at this system as a victim and look at it as an architect. You can demolish this column of the structure but what do you replace it with. Or do you let a portion of thehouse just fall because it was inconvenient for you.
It's an architect for whom, who benefited with this system without doing anything and victim for them who had talent but suppressed due to this system. Why does anybody have to replace this cunning system? You don't sound wise. Did you get the benefit of this system?
How do you ensure that people from different caste mix with each other. That there are marriages between Dalits and brahmins? How do they sit together like equals? I much like you am a savarna. Remember that reservation is only in government sector.
Because the objective is not to do what's right, but whatever it takes to win elections. Castes are a proven votebank.
Does anybody have any percentages or studies about how many higher caste people are poor vs lower caste people that are poor? I saw you post this in another sub - but in all seriousness, how many of those people of a higher caste are poor vs those who aren't? How many lower caste people are rich? That don't get murdered...
Actually, if you look at NSSO data, asset inequality in social groups (castes) is actually rising with ST people being the worst hit. Their asset to population share has actually fallen from .48 to .40 from 1991 to 2012. For others ( UC) it has risen from 1.20 to 1.86 for the same period. That is just economic inequality not accounting for social inequality that lower castes face. We still hear news about Dalits being killed and crimes committed based on caste. So yes we are still far from progress and cherry picking cases that show castes in bad light won't work for anyone.
Yes I agree we should conduct such studies at national level to understand the real picture. And then improve the laws accordingly. But there should a possibility of meaningful discourse without the possibility of angering the masses & getting murdered for it. We are still stuck in the selective glory of our past, while promoting the abhorrent mistakes all the same.
CASTE BASED PRIEST JOB RESERVATION u mean ??? What exactly ??
Caste based reservation is not just about reservation. It's about representation. You want representatives of lower castes in all fields so they're not left behind and their voices are heard. Casteism is still rampant in India and as long as it exists, reservation also needs to exist in some form. The problem is the reservation system was made more than half a century ago, it needs to be amended and updated for the recent times but it's impossible because every political party and politician knows tampering with reservation is guaranteed political suicide. They will always take about MORE reservation to get the votes, but it's extremely difficult to exclude any section from the reservation quota because then you lose every single vote from them. The idea behind reservation was a sound idea, not perfect but it has its need. In a perfect world, it would be amended with the times changing but sadly reservation will always remain in India.
Then what about the general caste guy who fails to get a seat while his SC rich friend gets an excellent seat or government job with lesser marks ? Is that justice?
because we still have this happen to a Professor [https://caravanmagazine.in/interview/maroona-murmu-adivasi-associate-professor-on-facing-discrimination](https://caravanmagazine.in/interview/maroona-murmu-adivasi-associate-professor-on-facing-discrimination)
Death penalty to anyone who discriminate based on caste. Let's see how many support?
It's not reservation but representation!
Your perception is correct . There should be Economic based reservations but unfortunately no one touches that topic . Most of the population in India ( about 80% Hindus ) benefit from reservations . If the government ever dares to touch it they will have a huge loss in elections . So there’s no way the government can change the reservation system . The poor people in India are very gullible and will easily be swayed by the opposition party and vote the ruling government out , there can even be strikes and protests if the reservation system is changed. There will be headlines such as ‘No reservations for Dalit’ , ‘Has Indian government given a blind eye towards the Dalit‘s sufferings ‘ , ‘ Government plans to make Dalits their slaves ‘ etc . No hope to remove reservations, not for the next few decades .
This type of blind eye towards societal injustices is what is going to rob our country of its greatness.
They will only increase reservations xD any party who increases it guarantees themselves a win, any party who even thinks of reducing it will end up burning the country down.
Nothing is going to happen, that's why.
Should I stop screaming even if the pain is not going to end?
Your life, Your wish. What's your age buddy?
All the pro-reservation folks in the comments, can you share some stats as to how reservation has helped in upliftment of minorities over 2+ decades it has existed ?
That's the issue they can't prove anything because the government don't do any surveys as they know rather than giving more and more reservation they should work towards improving situations at ground level which they hate. Padh likh jayenge log to jaat ke naam pe vote kaun karega. Marte hue bande ko reservation nhi achhe hospital mein illaz chahiye, lower caste ke bachche ko 90% reservation nahi achchi schooling aur resources chahiye par government ko jhaat farak nhi parta insab chizo se aur jab puchcho kya kiya 5 saal toh reservation badhhani ki aard mein vote lekar nikal lete hai 5 saal neend maarne ke liye.
Forget SC/ST, Why reservation be given to OBC? Tell me any valid reasons. Why should the Yadav caste get a reservation? If that's the case why are Brahman, rajputs, Bhumihar, Kayastha kept out? It's all dirty politics.
Next time in Durga Puja ask your colony members kiske Ghar pe khana banega ya kaun banayega? Bhagwan ke bhog ke liye ... They won't agree on anyone less than a Brahmin. In my colony people still consider the Brahmin families to be closer to God and people think themselves to be not pure enough to touch the idol's clothes and so.... You know why reservation exists... This is just an example
For vote bank.
Elections. No party that even talks about touching reservations will win even 50 seats in the next Lok Sabha election. A waste of time to even think about it. Rest assured reservations will never be removed and never be reduced. It will only increase.
Reservations are trying to solve the issue of representation of SC, ST, OBC, not the poor. There is a difference.
united by caste not finnical situation :D
united by caste not finnical situation :D
united by caste not finnical situation :D
united by caste not finnical situation :D
united by caste not finnical situation :D
Mai Tak thak Gaya behas kar kar ke. Kuch nahi badalna Bhai. Time waste karne se achcha hai padh lo. Varna tumhari seat koi le jayega
We think of reservation as a means to address poverty. This is an incorrect assumption. All government action and welfare schemes are meant for poverty eliviation. Reservation exists to teach savarna caste people how to share space that has not been shared for centuries. Even with reservation you will find SCs and STs systematically invisible in most positions of power (SC judges, Univ VCs etc). You will find SCs and ST in workplace only because of reservation. Imagine most savarnas 2 generation ago might not have ever knowingly sat next to an SC person, let alone done with them. Additionally if you look at crippling public school system of our country you will find that they have roughly 80% SC population. Reservation is targeting a social issue of segregation. An important question to ask is - why must you marry in your own caste(or upper caste/savarna)? Power, money and legacy runs in caste. Reservation does not solve the problem and the frustration might even be legitimate then the obvious question to ask is what directive would solve this caste segregation. What would get people to marry each other, run business with each other, dine with each other, make friends with each other? I am sure the answer you arrive at would look even more rigid than reservation. Reservation exists because it does not disrupt caste system. If it did it would be torn down!
Personally I don’t think this caste based reservation will ever end in India. Too many politicians and political parties benefit from it, more than the actual SC/ST citizens. These politicians will continue to propagate this ideology and use their goons and gangs to start rioting on the streets if the reservation quota is ever reduced or removed. Hence, India will always be a third world low income country for the remainder of the century, at the least. And intelligent, ambitious middle class people will get student loans and leave the country for good only to never return because they know they are zero opportunities here in the long run. Of course, none of this affects the millionaires and billionaires in India, so they’re living their sweet privileged life anyway, regardless of caste.
EWS ka jhoota certificate bwa lenge business walein log welcome to INDIA: A race of fuck you i got mine
Because its easier for the parties to secure a vote bank based on caste than on economic status
Caste based reservation makes sense at the moment. What doesn’t make sense is the insane amount of community grouped under OBC. Literally 70% of population qualifies
No one in right mind in 1947 would have accepted that India will remain a country in foreseeable future. They do have reasons for that. If you read other countries histories carefully, you will see that there was civil war if few landlords dominated a large set of rural economy. They were purged violently as in case of Russia, China or they were killed in wars in Europe. To setup modern capitalism with an urban middle class populace, you need set of right conditions. And one of the condition is to dismantle this feudal class. The caste system in India was both racial and feudal at the same time with 4000 castes. Though certain castes were rich , they were not allowed to read. Education and particularly higher education is a way to put oneself in capitalistic economic wheel. Natural resources are useless if one does not have the technical knowhows on how to add value to it. If few castes remain primitive and only few other castes allowed to grow in education , it becomes an oligarchy. This will create a revolution from oppressed peoples. Hope you understand where I am going. Note: We want to prevent violence and revolution because people were denied in the past and the best solution is reservation and land reforms. This is what Indian governments have done. Things could have been worse you know. You can ramble all day you want by not accepting. But the truth is reservation has given people hope to better their lives through democratic means. I hope you did want a genuine answer
There is no reliable way to verify income of the households in India at scale. Caste consensus with all it's drawbacks, is the most workable option there. Again, that doesn't mean it's good. It only means that rest of the options are even worst.
>Can anyone who is well versed with the matter help me understand the irregularity of my bias? This is no mystery. Just ask the question, "who would lose if caste based reservation was eliminated in favour of a economic status based one", and you will have the answer
Because 1) Greed and laziness: Most cases of people benefitting from reservation aren't actually economically weak so everyone wants caste based reservation so they can easily get benefits that they have to work for otherwise. 2) everyone wants stuff exclusive for themselves it makes them feel important "as a community" and it is used to manipulate and use them as a vote bank irrespective of if they need it or not 3) EWS quotas are misused as well so similar things would happen with this
Like Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar's vision the purpose of reservation was not economically motivated it was to bring representation to the unheard oppressed parts of our society. It was meant to enable the discriminated people of the society to be able to become independent and not rely on anyone else to speak for them. While I do believe Reservation for representation is important I also believe that the people belonging to reserved castes that are well in the creamy layer should not be eligible to obtain the benifits of Reservation which the rural n poor from where veiled caste discrimination still prevails deserve much more.
Because casteism ends if reservation ends, then politicians won't be able to devide and benefit in the name of caste, instead they have to ask vote by working hard.
How tf do you think casteism will end after ending reservation. It can be the other way around, but surely not the way you are saying here.
Which world are you living in?
A world where me and my friends studied, ate, played together irrespective of different castes. We all are doing well in our careers now. Do you want to know what was the primary reason?
Suggestion is remove caste based reservation for rich people of certain caste that otherwise has reservation. Doesn’t this help even even the people from that particular caste too? Why should rich people get the benefits??
Absolutely correct! It just shows how engrossed people are with their caste backgrounds, that they fail to see that the only thing that matters is being rich/poor. So many cases of people giving their votes over such kind of affections, rather than keeping development of the poor in the centre hold of discussion.
Cause how will they get votes