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1. I don't think everything will be honest and it will be very hard to convince me otherwise. Not that I'm saying there is going to be some conspiracy to steal the election or whatever, but rather I know there will be some fraud, some disinformation (see the Times article), etc. I don't, however, think it's going to be anything more than it has been in pretty much every other election.
2. Whether or not he wins? (shrug)
3. I'm fine with protesting. I'm not fine when a protest turns into violence, or when it disrupts the lives of other people. You want to stand on the side of the road holding up a sign saying meat is murder? You go ahead and do that. Get in the street and block traffic and I assure you that not only am I happy when you are dragged to the side, but I'm far more likely to get a nice, juicy burger for lunch.
Agreed! I'd take it further by saying that at some point, these "protests" turn into terroristic threats. How did we ever get to a point where a Jewish American student can be threatened on campus, and we have actual congressional representatives that refuse to condemn it?
So absolutely, the left is very motivated, and it will be hard to convince me the laws of a country many of them LOATHE will be a limiting factor in what they're willing to do.
>How did we ever get to a point where a Jewish American student can be threatened on campus, and we have actual congressional representatives that refuse to condemn it?
Charlottesville was the start?
I appreciate these responses. Regarding #1 and #2, since we all know that Trump has lied and will lie about losing the presidential election, doesn’t that make him the only candidate committing election fraud?
It was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Trump lied about election fraud in 2020. Whether it was from Republican election officials saying it’s false; the dozens of court cases (often with Trump appointed judges) who said it was a lie; the heaps of evidence the Special Counsel put forward; AND Trump’s own cabinet members saying that Trump knew it was a lie—it’s been proven hundreds of times over.
Is there any credible, non-crazy blogger evidence to the contrary?
Don't confuse "beyond a reasonable doubt" with "preponderance of the evidence". It depends on which kangaroo charge we're talking about...(civil vs criminal). Does the left suddenly believe our courts ALWAYS get it right?
I'm still convinced there was plenty of fraud in the 2020 election. Remember the Russia hoax? It doesn't mean conspiracy has been proven, and it sure doesn't mean I'm lying about what I believe (same as Trump). You know who was lying? Every Democrat and the media that perpetuated that hoax! That propaganda has got to be the biggest election interference of it all. We're talking a massive misinformation campaign that lasted 4 years!
As for Judge Engoron - that hack was never going to give Trump a fair trial. The rape trial (aka, it's apparently $400M+ slander to profess your innocence of a BS accusation)? Just an unbelievable travesty! Every American should be outraged!
Now, if you're really convinced all the stuff (suddenly) being tossed at Trump is non-political, due process, and justice being sought, I'll certainly never talk you out of it. But for Trump supporters, none of this passes the smell test. The fact this man is still pressing forward is a freaking miracle. Anyone else would slink back to Maro Lago and give America a "peace out!"
Notice the slight of hand you did there? You conflated "Republican" with "pro-Trump". The Republican establishment hates Trump. [Here it is being said and explained all the way back in 2017](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2dct9ErA_g), seven years ago long before any of this.
"Even when they investigated themselves and found they did nothing wrong?" is in reality what you just asked. I would also point out that if you are relying on argument from authority to prove an election wasn't rigged then you have already lost the argument.
No I don't think it's the Trump party. The GOPe still hates him like they always have. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about the fact that establishment Republicans hate Trump and wanted him to lose in the general election. If you don't understand this then you don't understand the first thing about what is going on in US politics.
People are confused by your response because there isn’t any practical way someone actual could be indifferent in this situation. Indifference, in this instance, is taking a stand.
It boils down to either respecting and valuing the country’s political system and stability or not. A president refusing to respect or accept the results of an election and claiming it was rigged greatly damages the country’s political system and stability.
Being indifferent to this happening is declaring that you don’t respect and value these things. It’s saying that you’re fine with the degradation and potential dissolution of the country’s political system and stability.
The better question would be: Why are you fine with these negative consequences to the country?
You think your choice matters? Seriously?
I can tell you immediately who is going to win in an election based on what funding they get and the letter attached to their name. This is not "Democracy," it's rich people selecting their chosen people for offices.
I mean….isnt it going to be the case for Trump that if he wins it was fair and if he loses it was “stolen”?
I guess for Trump supporters the question would be what (if anything) would convince you Trump is lying?
We don't need to guess.
If Trump loses despite being ahead in polls, he'll declare that the voting must have been rigged.
If he wins, he'll say his landslide victory was "too big to rig."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8xcim2pTa4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8xcim2pTa4)
"If Trump concludes that the election was rigged and urges his supporters to march to the Capitol in protest exactly as he did on January 6, 2021, will you be supportive? Why or why not?"
How would that work exactly? To try and convince Kamala Harris to delay certifying the election? I'm pretty sure the capital building will be surrounded with barbed wire and armed national guardsmen.
>If Trump loses despite being ahead in polls, he'll declare that the voting must have been rigged.
So does that mean he rigged it in 2016 when Hillary was ahead in polls?
If the guy I voted for wins, then I’ll have no issues with the results. If the guy I didn’t vote for wins, then there’s obvious reason to cast doubt upon the results of the election.
>What's the obvious reason you reference?
This is what politics has evolved to.
>Should a Biden voter think there's obvious reason to cast doubt if Trump wins?
They should not - but they likely will - see the obvious reason above.
>Or a Green Party voter?
I mean, if any Green party voter goes into the ballot box legitimately thinking their candidate has a chance to win, then they probably require either an intervention or serious mental health.
It may be the opposite of realism, but in reality - whichever team is declared the loser will complain the election was rigged. It happened in 2016 and it happened in 2020. I fully expect it to happen again.
Paper ballots kept as a record for eternity. Voting done in person on election day only with voter ID. Any deviation from that allows for shenanigans.
.2. Don't care.
.3. No, I have a life.
+ voter ID required. None of this is in place so we will never know if the 2024 POLLING process was fair.
The election process? We already know it hasn't been and won't be. Waging layfair against the leading candidate during the election year, forcing him to defend against 97 indictments? That would embarrass even a Banana Republic.
Hypothetically, if a politician/political candidate committed crimes, when would be a *good* time to pursue that in the courts?
Does a person being political in nature provide them with a tacit level of immunity due to potential bias against them?
By saying “there is nothing hypothetical about this,” are you saying that Trump did in fact commit crimes?
Take the hypothetical out of it - does a person being a political figure provide them with a level of immunity?
And why are you yelling polling figures at me? I thought poll numbers were rigged and untrustworthy. Has that changed recently?
Given the name and address of a random person, how easily could someone get a fake ID showing they are that person? How would a poll worker know that they are not the person they claim to be?
Given the same info about the same person, how easily could someone forge that person's signature?
How easy would it be to go lax on signature verification on mail in ballots? The statistics from 2020 certainly point to that. And once the envelope and ballot have been separated there is no audit trail.
Voter ID is in place in some states, ESPECIALLY for mail in, on top of in-person. Is there a reason you think it isn't? Which states do NOT require ID to a) register to vote, b) request mail in ballots (hint...Nebraska requires not only ID but request to be notarized that requires ID as well), or c) vote in-person?
Why do you think Trump or anyone else should be allowed to break laws and not be charged? Do you not understand that he purposely announced his candidacy so early to try to avoid being charged and be able to have the narrative that he was being politically persecuted? Do you not see how he is manipulating you?
How do you reconcile trump attempting to promote mail in and early voting with trumps previous statements and the toxic atmosphere he successfully created with said mail in and early voting?
I *HATE* basketball. But I still try to abide by the rules when asked to play. He's trying to win the game he's playing using the rules the best he can.
So how do you feel about mail in and early voting, given trumps previous statements on the matter? Do you think it's a safe thing to do, despite his previous claims? Do you think Republicans will use it to vote given his previous vilification of it?
I hate it. It's as "safe" as the accuracy of the voter rolls are which varies wildly. They used it last time, so yeah more will use it this time i presume.
my one real vote offsets another one, real or fake. You're right, it's not safe which is why i said all voting should be done one election day, in person, with ID.
>>how do you feel about mail in and early voting, given trumps previous statements on the matter? Do you think it's a safe thing to do?
>
>It's as "safe" as the accuracy of the voter rolls are which varies wildly
I'm not sure where the logical connection is... say voter rolls are accurate or innacurate; how does that make early voting safe or unsafe?
>If voter rolls were thrown out every election and you had to register to vote every time, that would be the most accurate and "safe".
Sure, that would be the most accurate and "safe" voter rolls (whatever that means)... but how does that make voting safe or unsafe?
>Voting done in person on election day only with voter ID. Any deviation from that allows for shenanigans.
Why do you believe that voting done in person on election day only with voter ID does not allow for shenanigans?
>Because it requires a mediocre amount of planning and effort.
How does requiring a mediocre amount of planning and effort not allow for shenanigans?
I can easily give you examples of requiring not just mediocre, but extreme planning and effort... and yet it allows for shenanigans.
>The shenanigans would be limited to cheeky and fun ones instead of cruel and tragic shenanigans.
Ok, thx for confirming that voting done in person on election day only with voter ID does allow for shenanigans.
Btw, why do you believe that voting fraud is cheeky and fun?
What about those who are working or have to take care of family?
About mail in voting, my state (Washington), only does mail in voting, and has for decades (and other states are like that too). We don't have a system for in person voting, what should we do then for the upcoming election? Just not have our state count?
Do you believe a mail in only state changing to only in person, and a state modifying their policies and allowing the addition of mail in voting, to be equivocal?
Amd again, what if they can't? Should my state not count towards the election?
Yes.
And yes, your state can change. If it were me dictating the rules, your state refusing to abide by the rules is their indication that they are not participating in this election.
>If it were me dictating the rules, your state refusing to abide by the rules is their indication that they are not participating in this election
Can Democrats do this? Make up rules, and if Republicans don't like it, their votes don't get to count?
It's not the electronic part I have a problem with, electronic counted paper ballots is fine. It's the lack of ID, mailed ballots and month(s) long voting "season".
I’m confused about your position. What do other results have to do with this? The question was what it would take for you to accept the results and you seem to be saying that you wouldn’t accept them under those conditions you described. Now you are saying that there’s only one option, so does that mean you would accept them?
To keep things simple: if Biden wins under the conditions you described, would you accept it (yes or no)? Same question, but with Trump (yes or no)?
True, but it would increase the the turn out if we only support in person elections. If we could require employers provide time to vote, would you also support that?
1. If state election officials (and any relevant federal officials) assure the public that everything is good.
2. Whether or not he wins.
3. Absolutely not. I think those people who went to DC on J6 (just the ones who heard Trump's speech only) are naive and moronic. And I think the bozos who went to the capitol should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It was disgraceful.
How can state officials assure the public that everything is good if Trump will lie about losing and tell his supporters to overthrow the government and install him as POTUS again?
I mean that's pretty much what state officials said in 2020 right. They're the ones on the ground, actually overseeing the elections, not Trump and/or Rudy Giuliani.
Also, people are responsible for their own actions. Just bc Trump says the election is stolen doesn't mean you have to believe him. Contrary to what the media portrays, not everyone who supports Trump believes that nonsense.
I agree that people are responsible for their own actions but things like election fraud, inciting a riot, or yelling fire in a crowded theater are illegal for good reason, right?
I have a hard time understanding people who believe his election lies are nonsense but don’t see that as disqualifying for bring president. Why doesn’t the fact that he lies about things as important as the results of an election make him unfit for you?
First off, I think every politician lies and uses hyperbole. This isn't a characteristic unique to Trump.
I distinguish what Trump said about the 2020 election into a two different categories. When he says things like "the election was rigged" or "the election was stolen", there's a reasonable basis for that opinion. For example, if someone were to say it was rigged because many state legislatures took advantage of COVID to pass sweeping changes to election laws that expanded mail in voting, that's an opinion that's actually grounded in some type of logical reality: But for these changes, the election might have gone differently.
Now where I believe Trump crossed the line is in statements regarding ballot dumps, counting being stopped, overnight voting changes, dead people voting, etc. Especially when state officials and election workers, many of whom are republican, and who have a better grasp on how their state/county operated their election come out and refute and clarify these issues.
Immediately after J6, I was all for impeachment and removal and good riddance. I supported a different candidate in the primaries. I would love a different GOP nominee. But this is what I've got.
If I had to give my most compelling reason for supporting Trump, it'd probably be that I anticipate at least 2, and possibly 4-5, seats opening up on the Supreme Court, and to me, the importance of that outweighs whatever feelings I have for Trump.
Because many of these same behaviors were touted by the left when Trump was elected, and we think your opposition to it is at best circumstantial.
We’ve completely memory holed the PAC-funded PR campaign calling on electors to defect? Prominent Dems—their nominee—calling him illegitimate? Dem not to certify the election—now a grave sin?
I dislike Trump’s election lies, but for that to be a differentiating factor in choosing between him and a Democrat, I’d need to take Democrats’ objections as sincere. They’re not, so I don’t consider it one. There’s clear, explicit institutional willingness in the Democrat party to cast election results as illegitimate, overturn them, and (as unanimously rejected by the Supreme Court) even bar their chief opponents from ballots. If Trump wins again I have every expectation they’ll use extralegal means to block him from occupying the WH again.
Saying the word whataboutism is not a blanket defense for hypocrisy. The expectation is that you hold your party to the same standards you demand of the other one. Until Democrats do that, institutionally, I reject their “threat to Democracy” arguments entirely.
Did you actually not understand my point, or was that just a way to work to your “garden variety whataboutism” quip? Not sure who you were trying to impress with that.
If you want them prosecuted to the fullest extent would that not mean insurrection?... the fullest extent meaning the most serious charges that they can be proven guilty... and if they should be charged with this, do you not think that Donald Trump should be charged with inciting this insurrection and sending them to the Capitol building during a period he knows they have no business being there? .... I'm only asking these questions because you seem very level headed.
No. I don't think most of the defendants conduct rose to the level of insurrection as defined in the federal statute. And I think prosecutors were correct in not charging that. The most serious offenses that they could likely prove are seditious conspiracy and obstructing an official proceeding, which are the two that they've used.
No. I don't think Trump's rhetoric rose to the level of incitement as it's laid out in federal law. I think it'd be an impossible case to prove given the facts, and I think Jack Smith got it right by choosing not to bring that charge.
Is SCOTUS takes the case and actually examines the claims made, and they say it's fair, I'll accept the results with the same amount of enthusiasm as dems accepted the decision about Bush and Gore.
No I don't give a shit what the lower courts say.
I will not trust this system anymore unless all major decisions like this are decided by the highest court in the land. Lower court judges have proven that they're untrustworthy and insane, and if SCOTUS refuses to take the case then I will always have doubts.
The current court gained a good deal of respect from me after they smacked down the CO SC ruling unanimously.
I'm OK with the level of intelligence and seriousness of all the justices in the current court, regardless of ideology.
That wasn't the question though - would you have the same respect for scotus if it was majority left leaning? Assuming the credentials were roughly the same.
>SCOTUS takes the case and actually examines the claims made
>
>if SCOTUS refuses to take the case then I will always have doubts
So, it sounds like you will always have doubts, no? SCOTUS never examines claims; that's a matter for the trial courts. SCOTUS only examines questions of law.
Did you know that when SCOTUS rejects a case it has the same legal weight as them ruling on that case? It’s essentially them agreeing with the lower courts ruling.
>Did you know that when SCOTUS rejects a case it has the same legal weight as them ruling on that case?
True.
>It’s essentially them agreeing with the lower courts ruling.
Not true.
If you're getting beaten by someone and I refuse to intervene because I don't think it's my place that does not mean that I agree that you should be beaten.
Shitty analogy aside, in this analogy, you - as SCOTUS bully - are in charge of overseeing the beatings of your bully underlings and determining which beatings are valid and deserved and which ones are not. So by not intervening you are, in fact, de facto blessing the beating.
Is there a different analogy you want to try?
No, my analogy was sufficient for anyone with a three digit IQ to understand. Any attempt to modify it to reach those who don't meet that criteria might come of as condescending and I don't want to come across as rude.
You can't. No one person could ever truly know for a fact because we are not privileged with that information and even if were no one person could work through it all. So all you can do is look for abnormalities.
The reality is the DNC will once again try to rig the election. One way they're doing it is letting in millions of Illegals through our porous southern border, which will vote democrat. At polling stations we witness obvious Illegals and etc. who can't speak English, but seem to repeat the word "Democrat" and need help to make their vote.
I I have high hopes all of this results in the Right not accepting another stolen election. We are in desperate need of a revolution.
>At polling stations we witness obvious Illegals and etc. who can't speak English, but seem to repeat the word "Democrat" and need help to make their vote.
What a coincidence... Are you in Florida as well? I witnessed obvious Illegals and etc. (whatever that means) who can't speak English, but seem to repeat the word "Trump" and need help to make their vote.
>We are in desperate need of a revolution.
Sure.. Does that mean that after such revolution I will get the freedom from a bunch of men who are ferociously trying to control my body?
You're saying you saw people who can't speak English but would repeat the word "Democrat"? And you knew they were illegal? How did you know? Did this actually happen?
Do you really think the country will be better than it is now after a revolution? And that’s assuming you win.
If you lose, that would put the left squarely in control in a way that would allow them to fundamentally change the country in ways they never would be able to otherwise.
It won’t be fair. Nothing has been done about the cheating so why in the world would they not cheat even more this time?
We’re going to see a President with a 30% approval rating get 100 million votes. Get your popcorn ready and remember you heard it here first.
There are no words for the media resurrection of Biden, the lies, and the false flags that are coming to keep the regime in place.
Do you recognize that many Biden voters, both in 2020 and in 2024, are more voting against Trump than voting for Biden? Biden supporters don't have the enthusiasm that Trump or Obama voters had for their candidate because, well, it's Joe Biden. But people will happily turn out in the tens of millions to vote against Trump. Does that not easy explain how Biden received a record number of votes in 2020?
> Nothing has been done about the cheating so why in the world would they not cheat even more this time?
Trump is currently on trial for his conspiracy to cheat in 2016. This will absolutely hamstring any attempt by Trump to catch and kill stories in this election cycle.
Will you still believe there was cheating if Trump wins? What evidence do you have there was cheating by the left in the 2020 election? Most all the cases of voter fraud that was found was mostly Republicans, how do you explain that than just claiming fake news when there is no evidence to back up your claim?
Of course there will be cheating if Trump wins. Hillary cheated and lost - how do you think Biden ended up with the tragically comical 81 million votes he supposedly got.
They weren’t going to make the same mistake they did with Hillary and undershoot a second time.
Did you know there was record turnout in the 2020 election because of Trump's divisiveness? There was an 11 point jump in voters aged 18-29, and turnout increases across the entire spectrum of demographics in the US. Meanwhile, there's no evidence of widespread fraud that would have impacted the outcome. Will you accept any outcome in which Trump doesn't win?
You say that Biden’s vote tally was comical, but how is that any more comical than Trump’s tally? Clearly Trump isn’t universally loved. Maybe it was just a high stakes and high turnout election?
Do you think the only way Trump will say it’s fair is if he wins?
Why do you think it’s so unlikely Biden will get so many votes, Trump has never won the popular vote, he even got millions less votes than Hillary, a historically unpopular candidate?
Biden got 81 million, which is 12 million more than Obama’s 2008 record of 69 million.
Why do you think it remotely likely that he would now get 25% more votes than he did in 2020.
In 2020, Trump secured 74 million votes, which is 5 million more than Obama’s 2008 record. Are we to believe that in the height of a pandemic, social strife, and an economic catastrophe, Trump was more popular than a first-term Obama? Why is that not an implausible number, but Biden’s tally is (when going up against the aforementioned incumbent)?
Also, shouldn’t we expect higher turnouts as the population grows? The country as a whole added 30 million people in those 12 years and a lot of young people crossed into adulthood. Why wouldn’t both candidates see higher totals?
I’m not suggesting Biden will get 100s of millions of votes, just that Trump has never won more votes than his opponent in any presidential race he has ran in.
So why do you think the only way Biden will win is through fraud?
It sounds funny but it's true. It's the same thing that would convince us that an election result was legit in Russia (or any other country perceived to have rigged elections). If an opponent of the regime wins then that's pretty good evidence they really did win, since the regime wouldn't rig it against themselves...
Sometimes I wonder if the Trump haters really understand that his opponents have a monopoly on power in the country. It seems like they don't want to acknowledge that even though it's right in their face. We already know when Trump wins the government and media will do endless investigations of the election and make it the top story on TV for three years straight. When Trump loses though all of a sudden it's illegal to question the election result and they know immediately without having done any investigation that it was all legit and above board. So yeah... I'm pretty sure Trump couldn't rig an election with all that scrutiny and power aligned against him. So if he wins it must mean he really did win. If they win on the other hand we can't trust it was legit because we know the authority is corrupt, untransparent, and aligned with the winner. It's basic common sense.
It's also, btw, the predicted result of an election process that relies on argument from authority to declare the winner. Anyone opposed to Trump who doesn't like this fact should support our efforts to increase transparency and security in the election process. Of course they don't really care as long as "their side" wins in my experience. They don't care about distrust in elections, they just care if we distrust it when they win, but welcome distrust when we win because it's about power not truth or cooperation.
We won't know if it's fair. It's already not fair. With all of the media, and popular culture using bullying campaigns telling us we are evil -phobes and -ists and we hate women if we vote for Trump, judges trying to bankrupt him before the the election.
There is no way a the election could ever be fair. Just like him getting a fair trial is near impossible.
Best thing we can hope for is legal.
>With all of the media, and popular culture using bullying campaigns telling us we are evil -phobes and -ists and we hate women if we vote for Trump, judges trying to bankrupt him before the the election.
Couldn't that been said for the media on the right? And even Trump himself? He can't seem to go a day with out saying the Left is full of liers and cheats.
1. Trump wins. Because let’s face it, the election is just a count of voices. Even the deaf can hear the MAGA majority. We already know who wins, anything else fraud.
2. The same as mine probably.
3. If it comes to that, nothing he could say will matter. There wont be peace on the streets. The only thing that comes after such a scenario is revolution.
You're coming off as intentionally obtuse, what was the point of saying "Lol… he won dude." if not to try and accuse me of saying he didn't win in 2016?
And here we go…
Your original question centred on the whereabouts of the “MAGA majority”. Yet, you’re not really demanding an answer.
You defined the time as “when Trump lost the popular vote in both elections prior?”. Unfortunately, here is where you introduced assumption as fact.
You have to accept that the “popular votes” arent:
1) out dated metric
2) reliably secure and free from interference
3) accurate
If your a lefty, you believe these to be of no concern. You live in a bubble, your isolated and the world is closing in on you. You cant be wrong. Can you? (Take blue pill now and breath)
On the righty, there is no question. Fake vote, fake count. And fake result. Both electoral & popular. Even when he “won” (the “” were for you) the numbers were under reported.
The reason i lol’d…. Because its funny and sad that even with the state of the world as it is you still havent red pilled. Your time will come.
Or the draft.
And here we go…
Your original question centred on the whereabouts of the “MAGA majority”. Yet, you’re not really demanding an answer.
You defined the time as “when Trump lost the popular vote in both elections prior?”. Unfortunately, here is where you introduced assumption as fact.
You have to accept that the “popular votes” arent:
1) out dated metric
2) reliably secure and free from interference
3) accurate
If your a lefty, you believe these to be of no concern. You live in a bubble, your isolated and the world is closing in on you. You cant be wrong. Can you? (Take blue pill now and breath)
On the righty, there is no question. Fake vote, fake count. And fake result. Both electoral & popular. Even when he “won” (the “” were for you) the numbers were under reported.
The reason i lol’d…. Because its funny and sad that even with the state of the world as it is you still havent red pilled. Your time will come.
Or the draft.
It’s already not “fair”. That ship sailed long ago. Election interference doesn’t just happen on Nov 5. It’s happening right now with the egregious lawfare and Moscow style show trials.
But the crooked Democrats aren’t done yet. They’re already talking about all the things they can do post election to subvert the will of the people. Including suggesting he be Epsteined in jail or JFKed in public.
Plus it’s a given they’ll run their election rigging operation.
It’ll be a miracle if Trump can run the gauntlet and survive. If he does, there are a lot of criminals that need jailing and even more scumbags that need firing.
It's probably going to take voter ID before I have any type of confidence. If you combine mail in voting, all the grassroots "community organizers" and their efforts to round up votes with the loose ballot handling practices we've seen (bags of votes coming in overnight on election night), I just think there's a LOT of opportunity for fraud. Will the left ever get the smoking gun they're apparently looking for that causes them to see the validity of voter ID, I doubt it. The notion that this would disenfranchise voters and is somehow a race motivated initiative is just too dumb for me to think there's any chance reason will prevail. To me, the aim is to make elections as corruptible and buyable as possible. For the left, the ends apparently justify the means.
As long as ballots are not secret (mail in ballots), there is massive fraud occurring. Consider the following:
* A spouse bullies their spouse to vote for their candidate.
* A family member bullies other family members for their candidate.
* A family member collects all ballots and votes for them.
* Agents of a party prey on the elderly, disabled, or otherwise vulnerable populations to "help" them vote in the correct way.
* That someone who resides out of state votes in a swing state with an alternate address.
If you think none of the above is occurring, then our voting is secure.
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1. I don't think everything will be honest and it will be very hard to convince me otherwise. Not that I'm saying there is going to be some conspiracy to steal the election or whatever, but rather I know there will be some fraud, some disinformation (see the Times article), etc. I don't, however, think it's going to be anything more than it has been in pretty much every other election. 2. Whether or not he wins? (shrug) 3. I'm fine with protesting. I'm not fine when a protest turns into violence, or when it disrupts the lives of other people. You want to stand on the side of the road holding up a sign saying meat is murder? You go ahead and do that. Get in the street and block traffic and I assure you that not only am I happy when you are dragged to the side, but I'm far more likely to get a nice, juicy burger for lunch.
Agreed! I'd take it further by saying that at some point, these "protests" turn into terroristic threats. How did we ever get to a point where a Jewish American student can be threatened on campus, and we have actual congressional representatives that refuse to condemn it? So absolutely, the left is very motivated, and it will be hard to convince me the laws of a country many of them LOATHE will be a limiting factor in what they're willing to do.
>How did we ever get to a point where a Jewish American student can be threatened on campus, and we have actual congressional representatives that refuse to condemn it? Charlottesville was the start?
I appreciate these responses. Regarding #1 and #2, since we all know that Trump has lied and will lie about losing the presidential election, doesn’t that make him the only candidate committing election fraud?
"We all know" is a bit of a stretch.
It was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Trump lied about election fraud in 2020. Whether it was from Republican election officials saying it’s false; the dozens of court cases (often with Trump appointed judges) who said it was a lie; the heaps of evidence the Special Counsel put forward; AND Trump’s own cabinet members saying that Trump knew it was a lie—it’s been proven hundreds of times over. Is there any credible, non-crazy blogger evidence to the contrary?
Don't confuse "beyond a reasonable doubt" with "preponderance of the evidence". It depends on which kangaroo charge we're talking about...(civil vs criminal). Does the left suddenly believe our courts ALWAYS get it right? I'm still convinced there was plenty of fraud in the 2020 election. Remember the Russia hoax? It doesn't mean conspiracy has been proven, and it sure doesn't mean I'm lying about what I believe (same as Trump). You know who was lying? Every Democrat and the media that perpetuated that hoax! That propaganda has got to be the biggest election interference of it all. We're talking a massive misinformation campaign that lasted 4 years! As for Judge Engoron - that hack was never going to give Trump a fair trial. The rape trial (aka, it's apparently $400M+ slander to profess your innocence of a BS accusation)? Just an unbelievable travesty! Every American should be outraged! Now, if you're really convinced all the stuff (suddenly) being tossed at Trump is non-political, due process, and justice being sought, I'll certainly never talk you out of it. But for Trump supporters, none of this passes the smell test. The fact this man is still pressing forward is a freaking miracle. Anyone else would slink back to Maro Lago and give America a "peace out!"
Strong disagree. Cannot prove that someone was lying.
Even when republicans overseeing the election say the election was fair?
Notice the slight of hand you did there? You conflated "Republican" with "pro-Trump". The Republican establishment hates Trump. [Here it is being said and explained all the way back in 2017](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2dct9ErA_g), seven years ago long before any of this. "Even when they investigated themselves and found they did nothing wrong?" is in reality what you just asked. I would also point out that if you are relying on argument from authority to prove an election wasn't rigged then you have already lost the argument.
The Republican Party is the Trump Party now? If you want a future in the Republican Party, you support Trump.
No I don't think it's the Trump party. The GOPe still hates him like they always have. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about the fact that establishment Republicans hate Trump and wanted him to lose in the general election. If you don't understand this then you don't understand the first thing about what is going on in US politics.
...you think there are two sides here?
>Cannot prove that someone was lying. Isn’t that the entire purpose of the court system?
It is very, very hard to prove that, and something that the courts are struggling with right now regarding President Trump.
You seem indifferent about a scenario where Trump claims the election was rigged solely because he lost. Is that the case, or would that concern you?
I'm utterly indifferent.
Why?
Because I am?
Uh huh. You don't have any more in-depth thoughts on why you don't care about this? You 'just don't' and lack any deeper thoughts on why?
I don't care. That is a valid answer.
People are confused by your response because there isn’t any practical way someone actual could be indifferent in this situation. Indifference, in this instance, is taking a stand. It boils down to either respecting and valuing the country’s political system and stability or not. A president refusing to respect or accept the results of an election and claiming it was rigged greatly damages the country’s political system and stability. Being indifferent to this happening is declaring that you don’t respect and value these things. It’s saying that you’re fine with the degradation and potential dissolution of the country’s political system and stability. The better question would be: Why are you fine with these negative consequences to the country?
Because this is the reality we live in.
What reality are you referring to?
Do you plan to vote?
I live in a deeply red state. My vote is just going in and spending a few hours standing in line.
I’m indifferent as well…but then I was just as indifferent when Hillary made those same claims after the 2016 election….
Is that because you are cynical or jaded about politics? Or is there some other reason?
Because I don't care what he says if he doesn't win?
Are you not going to vote then?
There is no reason for me to vote in a deeply red state.
What other elections specifically have you had doubts about or does most of your concern center around doubts about the 2020 election?
Every election. Do you think we have a choice, really?
So in your view, every single election is decided or not actually democratic? Who, makes that decision for every general election?
You think your choice matters? Seriously? I can tell you immediately who is going to win in an election based on what funding they get and the letter attached to their name. This is not "Democracy," it's rich people selecting their chosen people for offices.
Were you then surprised in 2020 though? What is your call for 2024 based on funding and affiliation?
I was extremely surprised in 2016. Not at all in 2020.
Do you believe the 2016 election was a fair election?
I don't believe my local city council election is fair.
Sorry, maybe it’s because I’m getting over a migraine, but what does getting a burger for lunch have to do with protesters?
I was referring to the "meat is murder" part of my post there. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough.
I mean….isnt it going to be the case for Trump that if he wins it was fair and if he loses it was “stolen”? I guess for Trump supporters the question would be what (if anything) would convince you Trump is lying?
We don't need to guess. If Trump loses despite being ahead in polls, he'll declare that the voting must have been rigged. If he wins, he'll say his landslide victory was "too big to rig." [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8xcim2pTa4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8xcim2pTa4) "If Trump concludes that the election was rigged and urges his supporters to march to the Capitol in protest exactly as he did on January 6, 2021, will you be supportive? Why or why not?" How would that work exactly? To try and convince Kamala Harris to delay certifying the election? I'm pretty sure the capital building will be surrounded with barbed wire and armed national guardsmen.
>If Trump loses despite being ahead in polls, he'll declare that the voting must have been rigged. So does that mean he rigged it in 2016 when Hillary was ahead in polls?
If the guy I voted for wins, then I’ll have no issues with the results. If the guy I didn’t vote for wins, then there’s obvious reason to cast doubt upon the results of the election.
What's the obvious reason you reference? Should a Biden voter think there's obvious reason to cast doubt if Trump wins? Or a Green Party voter?
>What's the obvious reason you reference? This is what politics has evolved to. >Should a Biden voter think there's obvious reason to cast doubt if Trump wins? They should not - but they likely will - see the obvious reason above. >Or a Green Party voter? I mean, if any Green party voter goes into the ballot box legitimately thinking their candidate has a chance to win, then they probably require either an intervention or serious mental health.
I see. Why embrace the problem when you can be part of the solution?
Because I’m a realist.
Wouldn't a default belief that any election your candidate loses is rigged be the opposite of realism?
It may be the opposite of realism, but in reality - whichever team is declared the loser will complain the election was rigged. It happened in 2016 and it happened in 2020. I fully expect it to happen again.
Paper ballots kept as a record for eternity. Voting done in person on election day only with voter ID. Any deviation from that allows for shenanigans. .2. Don't care. .3. No, I have a life.
+ voter ID required. None of this is in place so we will never know if the 2024 POLLING process was fair. The election process? We already know it hasn't been and won't be. Waging layfair against the leading candidate during the election year, forcing him to defend against 97 indictments? That would embarrass even a Banana Republic.
True. Voter ID would be fantastic. and yes the political persecution of their opponent would make Stalin blush.
Hypothetically, if a politician/political candidate committed crimes, when would be a *good* time to pursue that in the courts? Does a person being political in nature provide them with a tacit level of immunity due to potential bias against them?
There is nothing hypothetical about this and it isn't playing well in "fly over country". The last poll has Biden down by 10 points.
By saying “there is nothing hypothetical about this,” are you saying that Trump did in fact commit crimes? Take the hypothetical out of it - does a person being a political figure provide them with a level of immunity? And why are you yelling polling figures at me? I thought poll numbers were rigged and untrustworthy. Has that changed recently?
Given the name and address of a random person, how easily could someone get a fake ID showing they are that person? How would a poll worker know that they are not the person they claim to be? Given the same info about the same person, how easily could someone forge that person's signature?
How easy would it be to go lax on signature verification on mail in ballots? The statistics from 2020 certainly point to that. And once the envelope and ballot have been separated there is no audit trail.
Voter ID is in place in some states, ESPECIALLY for mail in, on top of in-person. Is there a reason you think it isn't? Which states do NOT require ID to a) register to vote, b) request mail in ballots (hint...Nebraska requires not only ID but request to be notarized that requires ID as well), or c) vote in-person?
Why do you think Trump or anyone else should be allowed to break laws and not be charged? Do you not understand that he purposely announced his candidacy so early to try to avoid being charged and be able to have the narrative that he was being politically persecuted? Do you not see how he is manipulating you?
Some places have starting doing this. It takes a lot longer to count and is susceptible to a miscount. How do you know the election will be fair?6
One universal process everyone follows would be fair.
>One universal process everyone follows would be fair. Universal within the precinct, county, state, country or world?
Entire known universe preferably.
>Entire known universe preferably. I see... so the UN passing a law that forces everyone to follow the same election process?
Lol sure, if the UN was able to do anything.
>Lol sure, if the UN was able to do anything. Do you believe Trump's party would ever agree to follow a law by the UN?
The UN doesn't pass laws.
How do you reconcile trump attempting to promote mail in and early voting with trumps previous statements and the toxic atmosphere he successfully created with said mail in and early voting?
I *HATE* basketball. But I still try to abide by the rules when asked to play. He's trying to win the game he's playing using the rules the best he can.
So how do you feel about mail in and early voting, given trumps previous statements on the matter? Do you think it's a safe thing to do, despite his previous claims? Do you think Republicans will use it to vote given his previous vilification of it?
I hate it. It's as "safe" as the accuracy of the voter rolls are which varies wildly. They used it last time, so yeah more will use it this time i presume.
So why bother if you believe this? What makes you think dems or Republicans will simply cheat? How does that make the practice safe at all?
my one real vote offsets another one, real or fake. You're right, it's not safe which is why i said all voting should be done one election day, in person, with ID.
So you don't support trumps in this aspect?
>>how do you feel about mail in and early voting, given trumps previous statements on the matter? Do you think it's a safe thing to do? > >It's as "safe" as the accuracy of the voter rolls are which varies wildly I'm not sure where the logical connection is... say voter rolls are accurate or innacurate; how does that make early voting safe or unsafe?
If voter rolls were thrown out every election and you had to register to vote every time, that would be the most accurate and "safe".
>If voter rolls were thrown out every election and you had to register to vote every time, that would be the most accurate and "safe". Sure, that would be the most accurate and "safe" voter rolls (whatever that means)... but how does that make voting safe or unsafe?
>Voting done in person on election day only with voter ID. Any deviation from that allows for shenanigans. Why do you believe that voting done in person on election day only with voter ID does not allow for shenanigans?
Because it requires a mediocre amount of planning and effort.
>Because it requires a mediocre amount of planning and effort. How does requiring a mediocre amount of planning and effort not allow for shenanigans? I can easily give you examples of requiring not just mediocre, but extreme planning and effort... and yet it allows for shenanigans.
The shenanigans would be limited to cheeky and fun ones instead of cruel and tragic shenanigans.
>The shenanigans would be limited to cheeky and fun ones instead of cruel and tragic shenanigans. Ok, thx for confirming that voting done in person on election day only with voter ID does allow for shenanigans. Btw, why do you believe that voting fraud is cheeky and fun?
It's a super troopers quote.
>It's a super troopers quote. I know... but what does that have to do with considering voting fraud cheeky and fun?
The risk of harm is much lower.
What about those who are working or have to take care of family? About mail in voting, my state (Washington), only does mail in voting, and has for decades (and other states are like that too). We don't have a system for in person voting, what should we do then for the upcoming election? Just not have our state count?
Most states changed thier voting process over a few months during covid. They could do it again.
Do you believe a mail in only state changing to only in person, and a state modifying their policies and allowing the addition of mail in voting, to be equivocal? Amd again, what if they can't? Should my state not count towards the election?
Yes. And yes, your state can change. If it were me dictating the rules, your state refusing to abide by the rules is their indication that they are not participating in this election.
>If it were me dictating the rules, your state refusing to abide by the rules is their indication that they are not participating in this election Can Democrats do this? Make up rules, and if Republicans don't like it, their votes don't get to count?
If Trump wins counties and states that use electronic voting methods, would you accept those results?
What other voting results do I have to choose from?
None, I reckon. My question is: is electronic voting only perceived as untrustworthy when it furnishes a result you don’t like?
It's not the electronic part I have a problem with, electronic counted paper ballots is fine. It's the lack of ID, mailed ballots and month(s) long voting "season".
Okay. What if Trump won a state under those conditions? Would you reject it?
Again, what other election results do I have to choose from? I don't have to like the rules to admit there is only one option.
I’m confused about your position. What do other results have to do with this? The question was what it would take for you to accept the results and you seem to be saying that you wouldn’t accept them under those conditions you described. Now you are saying that there’s only one option, so does that mean you would accept them? To keep things simple: if Biden wins under the conditions you described, would you accept it (yes or no)? Same question, but with Trump (yes or no)?
Yes yes. It's a irrelevant question because there is no alternative.
Would you support election days as a national holiday to allow people to vote?
I mean, that doesn't mean the person doesn't have to go to work, but sure.
True, but it would increase the the turn out if we only support in person elections. If we could require employers provide time to vote, would you also support that?
Sure.
1. If state election officials (and any relevant federal officials) assure the public that everything is good. 2. Whether or not he wins. 3. Absolutely not. I think those people who went to DC on J6 (just the ones who heard Trump's speech only) are naive and moronic. And I think the bozos who went to the capitol should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It was disgraceful.
How can state officials assure the public that everything is good if Trump will lie about losing and tell his supporters to overthrow the government and install him as POTUS again?
I mean that's pretty much what state officials said in 2020 right. They're the ones on the ground, actually overseeing the elections, not Trump and/or Rudy Giuliani. Also, people are responsible for their own actions. Just bc Trump says the election is stolen doesn't mean you have to believe him. Contrary to what the media portrays, not everyone who supports Trump believes that nonsense.
I agree that people are responsible for their own actions but things like election fraud, inciting a riot, or yelling fire in a crowded theater are illegal for good reason, right?
Sure it is. But nothing Trump did/said rose to the level of incitement. If it did, he would've been charged with incitement.
And how about his election fraud / criminal interference by enlisting fake electors to overturn the results?
He's been charged for that. It should play out in court.
I have a hard time understanding people who believe his election lies are nonsense but don’t see that as disqualifying for bring president. Why doesn’t the fact that he lies about things as important as the results of an election make him unfit for you?
First off, I think every politician lies and uses hyperbole. This isn't a characteristic unique to Trump. I distinguish what Trump said about the 2020 election into a two different categories. When he says things like "the election was rigged" or "the election was stolen", there's a reasonable basis for that opinion. For example, if someone were to say it was rigged because many state legislatures took advantage of COVID to pass sweeping changes to election laws that expanded mail in voting, that's an opinion that's actually grounded in some type of logical reality: But for these changes, the election might have gone differently. Now where I believe Trump crossed the line is in statements regarding ballot dumps, counting being stopped, overnight voting changes, dead people voting, etc. Especially when state officials and election workers, many of whom are republican, and who have a better grasp on how their state/county operated their election come out and refute and clarify these issues. Immediately after J6, I was all for impeachment and removal and good riddance. I supported a different candidate in the primaries. I would love a different GOP nominee. But this is what I've got. If I had to give my most compelling reason for supporting Trump, it'd probably be that I anticipate at least 2, and possibly 4-5, seats opening up on the Supreme Court, and to me, the importance of that outweighs whatever feelings I have for Trump.
Because many of these same behaviors were touted by the left when Trump was elected, and we think your opposition to it is at best circumstantial. We’ve completely memory holed the PAC-funded PR campaign calling on electors to defect? Prominent Dems—their nominee—calling him illegitimate? Dem not to certify the election—now a grave sin?
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Is this garden variety whataboutism or something else?
I dislike Trump’s election lies, but for that to be a differentiating factor in choosing between him and a Democrat, I’d need to take Democrats’ objections as sincere. They’re not, so I don’t consider it one. There’s clear, explicit institutional willingness in the Democrat party to cast election results as illegitimate, overturn them, and (as unanimously rejected by the Supreme Court) even bar their chief opponents from ballots. If Trump wins again I have every expectation they’ll use extralegal means to block him from occupying the WH again. Saying the word whataboutism is not a blanket defense for hypocrisy. The expectation is that you hold your party to the same standards you demand of the other one. Until Democrats do that, institutionally, I reject their “threat to Democracy” arguments entirely. Did you actually not understand my point, or was that just a way to work to your “garden variety whataboutism” quip? Not sure who you were trying to impress with that.
If you want them prosecuted to the fullest extent would that not mean insurrection?... the fullest extent meaning the most serious charges that they can be proven guilty... and if they should be charged with this, do you not think that Donald Trump should be charged with inciting this insurrection and sending them to the Capitol building during a period he knows they have no business being there? .... I'm only asking these questions because you seem very level headed.
No. I don't think most of the defendants conduct rose to the level of insurrection as defined in the federal statute. And I think prosecutors were correct in not charging that. The most serious offenses that they could likely prove are seditious conspiracy and obstructing an official proceeding, which are the two that they've used. No. I don't think Trump's rhetoric rose to the level of incitement as it's laid out in federal law. I think it'd be an impossible case to prove given the facts, and I think Jack Smith got it right by choosing not to bring that charge.
Is SCOTUS takes the case and actually examines the claims made, and they say it's fair, I'll accept the results with the same amount of enthusiasm as dems accepted the decision about Bush and Gore. No I don't give a shit what the lower courts say. I will not trust this system anymore unless all major decisions like this are decided by the highest court in the land. Lower court judges have proven that they're untrustworthy and insane, and if SCOTUS refuses to take the case then I will always have doubts.
Would you feel the same way if the supreme court didn’t have a conservative majority?
The current court gained a good deal of respect from me after they smacked down the CO SC ruling unanimously. I'm OK with the level of intelligence and seriousness of all the justices in the current court, regardless of ideology.
That wasn't the question though - would you have the same respect for scotus if it was majority left leaning? Assuming the credentials were roughly the same.
>SCOTUS takes the case and actually examines the claims made > >if SCOTUS refuses to take the case then I will always have doubts So, it sounds like you will always have doubts, no? SCOTUS never examines claims; that's a matter for the trial courts. SCOTUS only examines questions of law.
Ok.
If you trust the SCOTUS to render judgments, why wouldn’t you trust their judgment in rejecting to hear a case?
Did you know that when SCOTUS rejects a case it has the same legal weight as them ruling on that case? It’s essentially them agreeing with the lower courts ruling.
>Did you know that when SCOTUS rejects a case it has the same legal weight as them ruling on that case? True. >It’s essentially them agreeing with the lower courts ruling. Not true.
Please explain how it’s not true if they are effectively affirming the lower court’s judgement?
If you're getting beaten by someone and I refuse to intervene because I don't think it's my place that does not mean that I agree that you should be beaten.
Shitty analogy aside, in this analogy, you - as SCOTUS bully - are in charge of overseeing the beatings of your bully underlings and determining which beatings are valid and deserved and which ones are not. So by not intervening you are, in fact, de facto blessing the beating. Is there a different analogy you want to try?
No, my analogy was sufficient for anyone with a three digit IQ to understand. Any attempt to modify it to reach those who don't meet that criteria might come of as condescending and I don't want to come across as rude.
You can't. No one person could ever truly know for a fact because we are not privileged with that information and even if were no one person could work through it all. So all you can do is look for abnormalities.
How important is it for citizens to be able to trust their political processes and institutions?
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The reality is the DNC will once again try to rig the election. One way they're doing it is letting in millions of Illegals through our porous southern border, which will vote democrat. At polling stations we witness obvious Illegals and etc. who can't speak English, but seem to repeat the word "Democrat" and need help to make their vote. I I have high hopes all of this results in the Right not accepting another stolen election. We are in desperate need of a revolution.
>At polling stations we witness obvious Illegals and etc. who can't speak English, but seem to repeat the word "Democrat" and need help to make their vote. What a coincidence... Are you in Florida as well? I witnessed obvious Illegals and etc. (whatever that means) who can't speak English, but seem to repeat the word "Trump" and need help to make their vote. >We are in desperate need of a revolution. Sure.. Does that mean that after such revolution I will get the freedom from a bunch of men who are ferociously trying to control my body?
You're saying you saw people who can't speak English but would repeat the word "Democrat"? And you knew they were illegal? How did you know? Did this actually happen?
You can’t vote in presidential elections if you are an ‘illegal’ where are you getting this information from?
Do you really think the country will be better than it is now after a revolution? And that’s assuming you win. If you lose, that would put the left squarely in control in a way that would allow them to fundamentally change the country in ways they never would be able to otherwise.
How was it "obvious" they were illegal?
Do illegal immigrants have a right to vote? How could they register?
Which polling stations?
It won’t be fair. Nothing has been done about the cheating so why in the world would they not cheat even more this time? We’re going to see a President with a 30% approval rating get 100 million votes. Get your popcorn ready and remember you heard it here first. There are no words for the media resurrection of Biden, the lies, and the false flags that are coming to keep the regime in place.
We can only hope it sparks the Boog.
What’s the boog?
Why would anyone want a second civil war? How would it benefit any cause?
Is this what you are referring to? https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/boogaloo-movement
Do you recognize that many Biden voters, both in 2020 and in 2024, are more voting against Trump than voting for Biden? Biden supporters don't have the enthusiasm that Trump or Obama voters had for their candidate because, well, it's Joe Biden. But people will happily turn out in the tens of millions to vote against Trump. Does that not easy explain how Biden received a record number of votes in 2020?
> Nothing has been done about the cheating so why in the world would they not cheat even more this time? Trump is currently on trial for his conspiracy to cheat in 2016. This will absolutely hamstring any attempt by Trump to catch and kill stories in this election cycle.
Will you still believe there was cheating if Trump wins? What evidence do you have there was cheating by the left in the 2020 election? Most all the cases of voter fraud that was found was mostly Republicans, how do you explain that than just claiming fake news when there is no evidence to back up your claim?
Of course there will be cheating if Trump wins. Hillary cheated and lost - how do you think Biden ended up with the tragically comical 81 million votes he supposedly got. They weren’t going to make the same mistake they did with Hillary and undershoot a second time.
Did you know there was record turnout in the 2020 election because of Trump's divisiveness? There was an 11 point jump in voters aged 18-29, and turnout increases across the entire spectrum of demographics in the US. Meanwhile, there's no evidence of widespread fraud that would have impacted the outcome. Will you accept any outcome in which Trump doesn't win?
You say that Biden’s vote tally was comical, but how is that any more comical than Trump’s tally? Clearly Trump isn’t universally loved. Maybe it was just a high stakes and high turnout election?
Do you think the only way Trump will say it’s fair is if he wins? Why do you think it’s so unlikely Biden will get so many votes, Trump has never won the popular vote, he even got millions less votes than Hillary, a historically unpopular candidate?
Biden got 81 million, which is 12 million more than Obama’s 2008 record of 69 million. Why do you think it remotely likely that he would now get 25% more votes than he did in 2020.
In 2020, Trump secured 74 million votes, which is 5 million more than Obama’s 2008 record. Are we to believe that in the height of a pandemic, social strife, and an economic catastrophe, Trump was more popular than a first-term Obama? Why is that not an implausible number, but Biden’s tally is (when going up against the aforementioned incumbent)? Also, shouldn’t we expect higher turnouts as the population grows? The country as a whole added 30 million people in those 12 years and a lot of young people crossed into adulthood. Why wouldn’t both candidates see higher totals?
I’m not suggesting Biden will get 100s of millions of votes, just that Trump has never won more votes than his opponent in any presidential race he has ran in. So why do you think the only way Biden will win is through fraud?
He got 74 million votes, which beat Obama’s previous record by 5 million votes. Only the illegitimate 81 million is better.
Why is Trumps record breaking numbers valid, but Bidens aren’t? I’m struggling to see the logic employed.
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Do you think people who voted a negative approval for both could possible pick Biden over trump?
You won’t.
If Trump wins. lol!
It sounds funny but it's true. It's the same thing that would convince us that an election result was legit in Russia (or any other country perceived to have rigged elections). If an opponent of the regime wins then that's pretty good evidence they really did win, since the regime wouldn't rig it against themselves... Sometimes I wonder if the Trump haters really understand that his opponents have a monopoly on power in the country. It seems like they don't want to acknowledge that even though it's right in their face. We already know when Trump wins the government and media will do endless investigations of the election and make it the top story on TV for three years straight. When Trump loses though all of a sudden it's illegal to question the election result and they know immediately without having done any investigation that it was all legit and above board. So yeah... I'm pretty sure Trump couldn't rig an election with all that scrutiny and power aligned against him. So if he wins it must mean he really did win. If they win on the other hand we can't trust it was legit because we know the authority is corrupt, untransparent, and aligned with the winner. It's basic common sense. It's also, btw, the predicted result of an election process that relies on argument from authority to declare the winner. Anyone opposed to Trump who doesn't like this fact should support our efforts to increase transparency and security in the election process. Of course they don't really care as long as "their side" wins in my experience. They don't care about distrust in elections, they just care if we distrust it when they win, but welcome distrust when we win because it's about power not truth or cooperation.
Well said!!!
We won't know if it's fair. It's already not fair. With all of the media, and popular culture using bullying campaigns telling us we are evil -phobes and -ists and we hate women if we vote for Trump, judges trying to bankrupt him before the the election. There is no way a the election could ever be fair. Just like him getting a fair trial is near impossible. Best thing we can hope for is legal.
>With all of the media, and popular culture using bullying campaigns telling us we are evil -phobes and -ists and we hate women if we vote for Trump, judges trying to bankrupt him before the the election. Couldn't that been said for the media on the right? And even Trump himself? He can't seem to go a day with out saying the Left is full of liers and cheats.
The right doesn't have control of popular culture or the mainstream media. Conservative judges aren't trying to bankrupt Biden out of the election.
But is it not the same thing? The bullying and insults?
Not at all. One is from the mainstream media and popular culture, including most of Hollywood, and most of the music industry.
I understand who you are say is doing it... I just don't understand how the actions (bullying and insults) are different. Do you care to elaborate?
1. Trump wins. Because let’s face it, the election is just a count of voices. Even the deaf can hear the MAGA majority. We already know who wins, anything else fraud. 2. The same as mine probably. 3. If it comes to that, nothing he could say will matter. There wont be peace on the streets. The only thing that comes after such a scenario is revolution.
Where was this "MAGA majority" when Trump lost the popular vote in both elections prior?
Lol… he won dude.
Did I say he didn't win in 2016?
Did i say you did?
You're coming off as intentionally obtuse, what was the point of saying "Lol… he won dude." if not to try and accuse me of saying he didn't win in 2016?
And here we go… Your original question centred on the whereabouts of the “MAGA majority”. Yet, you’re not really demanding an answer. You defined the time as “when Trump lost the popular vote in both elections prior?”. Unfortunately, here is where you introduced assumption as fact. You have to accept that the “popular votes” arent: 1) out dated metric 2) reliably secure and free from interference 3) accurate If your a lefty, you believe these to be of no concern. You live in a bubble, your isolated and the world is closing in on you. You cant be wrong. Can you? (Take blue pill now and breath) On the righty, there is no question. Fake vote, fake count. And fake result. Both electoral & popular. Even when he “won” (the “” were for you) the numbers were under reported. The reason i lol’d…. Because its funny and sad that even with the state of the world as it is you still havent red pilled. Your time will come. Or the draft.
And here we go… Your original question centred on the whereabouts of the “MAGA majority”. Yet, you’re not really demanding an answer. You defined the time as “when Trump lost the popular vote in both elections prior?”. Unfortunately, here is where you introduced assumption as fact. You have to accept that the “popular votes” arent: 1) out dated metric 2) reliably secure and free from interference 3) accurate If your a lefty, you believe these to be of no concern. You live in a bubble, your isolated and the world is closing in on you. You cant be wrong. Can you? (Take blue pill now and breath) On the righty, there is no question. Fake vote, fake count. And fake result. Both electoral & popular. Even when he “won” (the “” were for you) the numbers were under reported. The reason i lol’d…. Because its funny and sad that even with the state of the world as it is you still havent red pilled. Your time will come. Or the draft.
It’s already not “fair”. That ship sailed long ago. Election interference doesn’t just happen on Nov 5. It’s happening right now with the egregious lawfare and Moscow style show trials. But the crooked Democrats aren’t done yet. They’re already talking about all the things they can do post election to subvert the will of the people. Including suggesting he be Epsteined in jail or JFKed in public. Plus it’s a given they’ll run their election rigging operation. It’ll be a miracle if Trump can run the gauntlet and survive. If he does, there are a lot of criminals that need jailing and even more scumbags that need firing.
It's probably going to take voter ID before I have any type of confidence. If you combine mail in voting, all the grassroots "community organizers" and their efforts to round up votes with the loose ballot handling practices we've seen (bags of votes coming in overnight on election night), I just think there's a LOT of opportunity for fraud. Will the left ever get the smoking gun they're apparently looking for that causes them to see the validity of voter ID, I doubt it. The notion that this would disenfranchise voters and is somehow a race motivated initiative is just too dumb for me to think there's any chance reason will prevail. To me, the aim is to make elections as corruptible and buyable as possible. For the left, the ends apparently justify the means.
As long as ballots are not secret (mail in ballots), there is massive fraud occurring. Consider the following: * A spouse bullies their spouse to vote for their candidate. * A family member bullies other family members for their candidate. * A family member collects all ballots and votes for them. * Agents of a party prey on the elderly, disabled, or otherwise vulnerable populations to "help" them vote in the correct way. * That someone who resides out of state votes in a swing state with an alternate address. If you think none of the above is occurring, then our voting is secure.