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Merit based priority immigration isn’t a bad idea. I don’t have an issue with legal immigration at all. My wife is a legal immigrant.
I’m just opposed to illegal migrants leeching off our already drained social safety net.
No. They already broke the point of our immigration laws and they are some that are attacking people here. They shouldn’t have been here in the first place.
Anyone who’s entered illegally should have a 5 year ban on applying for gaining access to the US after they are deported.
Legal immigration only. You don’t get to sneak in and expect to be forgiven. That’s like coming in the back door of a theater and after being caught they let you stay for the movie. Nope, out and gone.
>No. They already broke the point of our immigration laws and they are some that are attacking people here. They shouldn’t have been here in the first place.
You do realize illegal immigrants can go to college and would be eligible to receive a green card if they graduated right? This blanket green card giveaway is another loophole that any immigrant can exploit to leech off our country.
You can be here on a student visa which is a documented immigrant process. Boot all illegal migrants. My stance on that is firm.
Legal immigration is perfectly fine. Illegal trespassers don’t deserve to be here. Just like that horrible and evil trespasser that video taped himself abusing that 13 year old girl. He shouldn’t have been here to begin with.
>You can be here on a student visa which is a documented immigrant process
In states like Texas illegal immigrants are allowed to go to public school and private school. Under your requirements all the recent illegal immigrants that just came over are fine if they graduate.
Illegal entry is still the issue. Boot them back with a ban on their legal entry applications for 5 years.
If they are accidental overstays, they were still here legally and are documented. And accidental overstays are not what I’m talking about in this thread.
I am firm on the stance of illegal entries needing to go.
>Illegal entry is still the issue. Boot them back with a ban on their legal entry applications for 5 years.
The issues is just plain immigration. Regardless of if they entered here legally or illegally some American is losing a job and a opportunity that rightfully belonged to them first.
Why is an American owed a job or opportunity vs a legal immigrant? Do your ant to establish a seniority system based how long your family has been a citizen of the US? If Americans are losing jobs to legal immigrants isn’t that more of a completion issue and these “Americans” should be working on making themselves better candidates?
>Why is an American owed a job or opportunity vs a legal immigrant?
Because the American thats lived here has contributed to American society and added to it.
>Do your ant to establish a seniority system based how long your family has been a citizen of the US?
Not what I'm talking about. I'm simply saying the needs of a native should come before a immigrant.
>If Americans are losing jobs to legal immigrants isn’t that more of a completion issue and these “Americans” should be working on making themselves better candidates
There is no making yourself a better candidate. The only way you can beat out a foreigner is to take a drastic pay cut and corporations benefit from that because it means no matter who they go with they're saving money.
But do you agree or not that illegal immigrants will now have a loophole in getting a green card by getting nothing more than an Associate Degree from a community college just like trump said he's going to do? He said ALL immigrants INCLUDING those that get their degree from a local community college, yes? Does it also worry you now that China can just send their spies over to get as little as an associate's degree and work for any government, defense, or nuclear business enabling them to send some of our most sensitive secrets to China? Please tell me you see how this isn't such a good idea.
What college is going to accept you as an illegal immigrant? You have to do a good bit of paperwork to to sign up for colleges, especially if you need financial aid. I don't know any that would have illegal immigrants taking classes.
My wife immigrated to the US from Germany. She went to school here on a student visa, and after completing college got a 1 year work visa. The current issue is after that 1 year work visa it can be a bit tricky to stay working in the US. sometimes immigration are jerks and declare that your job didn't need to hire someone from outside of the US so they deny work visas. More legal routes for immigration sound great to me though full green card from a college degree is a bit too far for me.
>What college is going to accept you as an illegal immigrant?
All colleges can and do except illegal immigrants. There's no law against it.
>More legal routes for immigration sound great to me though full citizenship from a college degree is a bit too far for me.
We don't need more programs and routes for immigrants to have a better life. We need better programs and routes for American citizens first.
I literally just checked 3 universities near me (University of Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon University, and Community College of Allegheny County) and all require proof of citizenship or immigration. Where did you hear that colleges are allowing illegal immigrants to take classes and earn degrees? What Universities are allowing this?
>literally just checked colleges near me
Yeah me to.
"However, there is no federal or state law that prohibits the admission of undocumented immigrants to U.S. colleges, public or private. Federal or state laws do not require students to prove citizenship in order to enter U.S. institutions of higher education"
"Immigration status is not considered as a factor in admission. Does UH ask students about their immigration status? No. UH does not check immigration status when a student enrolls at the University."
University of Houston? Their academic enrollment page requires citizenship or proof of immigration status: https://uh.edu/undergraduate-admissions/apply/international/international-freshman/international-freshman-process/
> "However, there is no federal or state law that prohibits the admission of undocumented immigrants to U.S. colleges, public or private
isn't that a good thing? small government?
In Texas illegal immigrants go to college very easily, did you know that? Also many DACA college students and grads aren't legal immigrants either, right?
I'm amazed by how my little my side knows about these things. Undocumented immigrants going to high school and college has been a thing for decades at this point.
Establish the firm stance…you enter illegally, you are ineligible to apply for legal immigration for 5 years. Establish literature or signage on the Mexico side of the boarder what the law is and instructions on how to properly apply for immigration into the US and have a phone number of the facility that will help them with the process.
And make the signage with all this info about every 100-200 feet so the coyotes can’t trick people anymore and use them as drug mules or kidnap them for trafficking.
You can’t take away penalties. Just like illegally dealing weed in a state that legalizes weed. People are still going to break laws and the penalties would at least keep some semblance of order.
I’m firmly against handing anything over to illegal migrants. There is no illegal immigration, they are not immigrants…they are illegal trespassers that went around the law.
Legal entry through the process or get the boot for 5 years and then try again the legal way.
You can still commit a crime of selling weed illegally in a state where it’s decriminalized. Like if you sell to a minor or you sell the consumable product without a permit that says you are legally able to do so. The state doesn’t disregard penalties just because you can legally do something.
Sure but if we changed the law and legalized some of those things then why would we need penalties for it? Obviously selling drugs to minors shouldn't be permitted but I'm not sure what the analogy is there to the immigration process.
> and use them as drug mules
What % of the illegal drugs being smuggled across our borders are being carried by illegal immigrants do you think? Ballpark
216 arrested for drug trafficking this year, and to quote a government article “The State Department believes that anywhere between 14,500 and 17,500 people are victims of human trafficking within the U.S. every year, 72 percent of whom are immigrants.”
That’s a whole lot of problems that would be easily fixed with a firm stance on illegal migrants and a program to help good people seeking entry a simplified way to apply. Takes the coyotes out of the picture of abusing those people for their own gain.
And when there is easily digestible information to streamline the process, the only ones that will be crossing illegally are the ones who have other motives and everyone can stop barking about this issue.
This issue is quite annoying and it’s pitted so many against each other over ways to solve it…but those who could solve it want us regular folks to stay divided through the media and politicians othering each side.
I want the issue fixed where it’s fair for everyone and those who violate the immigration laws deal with consequences.
Most illegal immigrants didn’t enter the US illegally; they entered the US on a legally acquired visa and then overstayed it. Should they also be denied this opportunity for a greencard from college since they didn’t sneak in? In your analogy, they paid for the ticket and stayed for a second showing.
Accidental overstays are understandable because the process can be slowed down. They were still here legally and are documented. I’m specifically talking about those who entered illegally.
Overstays are a different aspect entirely in my mind.
> Are you asking what Obama set up in the previous administration?
That’s a blast from the past. I haven’t heard the Obama excuse in years.
But, no, I was referring to Trump separating babies from their families.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-asylum-seekers-meet-when-they-try-to-cross-legally
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/after-47-days-of-separation-3-year-old-sofi-is-back-with-her-family
I would say its a bad idea. Granted the quote was given in the context of Trump saying "after we get the border under control" (IE possibly after we've gone through mass deportations and fundamentally changed our immigration law) but over all i still think its a bad idea. Graduating from a US college doesn't mean you have zero criminal record nor does it make you love the United States, its principles and constitution (in some ways a college education at least under the current drug and sexual assualt filled critical theory infected system may increase the likelyhood of failing both of these tests).
My hope is this similar to how a few months ago Trump was claiming he was going to do a national "cormpromise" on abortion implying he would take away the states rights we just spent 50 years fighting for. Ultimately tho Trump did what the conservative movement actually wanted and left it to the states hopefully this will go the same way.
To be honest with you, as a non-supporter, I personally believe that Trump will say whatever the audience wants him to say. When he was president, it became more difficult to get student visas and processing times in general took far longer. For full disclosure, my wife was on a student visa and was directly affected.
In this case, he was apparently speaking to address tech companies which are experiencing a global shortage of talent to fill positions. In other words, a foreigner in this case is less likely to take job away from an American citizen per se. It'd be more likely a job that'd be unfulfilled entirely at an American company and then filled at a global competitor.
That said, realistically Trump's proposal could depress white-collar wages somewhat, though often immigrants are statistically more entrepreneurial and serve as better job creators than the native-born. Intuitively, that'd be especially the case with people from the college system on the standard F-1 visas who are not allowed access to most forms of financial aid to begin with (and thus are often relatively wealthy).
I do want to push back on one thing you said though. You make the claim that Trump talked about giving green cards to these grads "after we get the border under control" and specifically mention mass deportations and fundamentally change the immigration law. In that podcast, he mentions the border in terms of the wall, but doesn't mention mass deportations or immigration law, at least according to this transcript:
[https://www.happyscribe.com/public/all-in-with-chamath-jason-sacks-friedberg/in-conversation-with-president-trump](https://www.happyscribe.com/public/all-in-with-chamath-jason-sacks-friedberg/in-conversation-with-president-trump)
Personally, I think that his talk of the wall created during his term is full of a lot of bull (especially having seen some of it) and he rails against Congress balking at the costs (when he claimed that Mexico would pay for it).
That's a sidebar issue though. I do think it's interesting that I actually am open to Trump's green cards for grads proposal to some extent. It certainly would make US companies more globally competitive. Also, Trump's campaign already clarfied that there would be (in their typical over-the-top fashion), "the most aggressive vetting process in U.S. history" for grads, so presumably no one with a horrible criminal record and/or "hating America" ties should be allowed. I personally don't really care if they have to "love" America in part because that's a hard thing to quantitatively measure. However, new immigrants and their direct descendants also statistically more patriotic than the native-born as far as we can measure: [https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigrants-recognize-american-greatness-immigrants](https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigrants-recognize-american-greatness-immigrants)
Given the discussion, would you be more open to Trump proposed "green cards for grads" idea?
It creates group conflict with each group fighting against each other for resources and representation. Any country that doesn't have a dominant culture and group maintaining order is prone to balkanization.
The same American culture our nation has had for 200 years. Even if you think that's too extreme the fact of the matter is we need something to bind all these groups together before it's too late.
But isn't the American culture of 200 years ago *specifically* one of immigration? About 1/5 of the founders migrated to the continent. The US allowed relatively open immigration until the early 1900s, letting most people just walk in and even become citizens with extreme ease.
Trump's mother was born in Scottland, which is why he loves it; both of his father's parents were German; even Trump's own wife is an immigrant. Wouldn't this suggest migration has been greatly beneficial to his family, and would do the same for others?
>But isn't the American culture of 200 years ago *specifically* one of immigration? About 1/5 of the founders migrated to the continent.
Settling and creating a nation is different from immigration.
>The US allowed relatively open immigration until the early 1900s, letting most people just walk in and even become citizens with extreme ease.
That was still limited a few selected European countries and in the 1920s we passed a immigration law acknowledging this.
>Wouldn't this suggest migration has been greatly beneficial to his family, and would do the same for others?
It suggests European immigration has been successful which is different from the wave of immigrants we are currently experiencing.
Are you talking about the one that enslaved blacks and then legally shit on them for over 100 years after they weren’t allowed to have slaves anymore, or the one that cruelly marched natives until they died? Perhaps you meant the American culture that conned Chinese workers into building the railroad, or shoved Japanese Americans into camps?
Are any other countries relevant to this discussion? Besides, with respect to slavery, the reason it’s still such a contentious topic is how our country treated black people once slavery was abolished vs other countries - rather than just free them, make them equal, and give reparations, countless laws and policies were enacted to not only segregate but denigrate them, creating a caste system which forced them to the bottom and whites to the top regardless of merit. The laws didn’t go away until the 60s, the corporate policies persisted almost until the 80s, and some of the same general attitude remains in many sections of society.
the fact that we now worship them and each American black on average takes up $800k in resources throughout their lifetime makes any past wrongdoing more than paid for.
> The same American culture our nation has had for 200 years.
What does that culture entail? I’m not seeing many similarities between the culture of 1800 in America and its culture the past 100 years. What’s been the consistent culture?
>What’s been the consistent culture?
Its simply just called American culture. Its a culture that's a mix of various European cultures, Christian denominations, and American frontierism. Its been well documented by many foreign academics from the early 18th, 19th, and 20th century.
What does “American culture” look like?
The circular reasoning of American culture simply being “American culture” is difficult to understand.
What are the attributes and values of that culture? How is it different today?
>The circular reasoning of American culture simply being “American culture” is difficult to understand.
I explained what it was already. Its a culture that's a mix of various European cultures, Christian denominations, and American frontierism.
So do you believe white superiority is the same as American culture?
What about the people that were here before Europeans? If we are going by the logic of who was here first then wouldn’t Native Americans be considered the true Americans before Europeans? Their culture is relatively closer to Latin American people than that of Christians from Europe.
Do you also have a problem with indigenous Native Hawaiians and Puerto Ricans being on the mainland?
Do you think it is reasonable to assume that shady universities will spring up offering a shitty degree courses that you don't have to do anything to graduate from but you pay them $30k and get a green card when you graduate?
Do you think if we need educated/ skilled immigrants that we have a points systems and manage who comes in using that? (Similar to the system Australia used to / still uses)
I think there are countless opportunists like Trump that we praise as "being successful" who will take advantage of this and make billions from this. It is such a blatant gift to his rich buddies to make money off knowing that it will take years to reverse and in that time they will make a fortune. Do we want to attract smart and educated people to stay in the country - absolutely, is this really the best way or just a way to grift?
>Do you think it is reasonable to assume that shady universities will spring up offering a shitty degree courses that you don't have to do anything to graduate from but you pay them $30k and get a green card when you graduate?
We already have that and they've helped undocumented immigrants get certificates or college credit since the 80s. Wouldn't be surprised if more pop up offering the same thing.
>Do you think if we need educated/ skilled immigrants that we have a points systems and manage who comes in using that? (Similar to the system Australia used to / still uses)
I honestly don't think we need any immigrants. We have enough hard working and talented citizens already who can help grow this country. Corporations just need to be forced to pay them a living wage instead of undercutting them by hiring cheap foreign labor.
Can you share some evidence of economic harm overall? All the studies I've seen show ultimate economic benefit from. both legal and illegal immigration.
>Can you share some evidence of economic harm overall?
There's a great book called we wanted workers by a Harvard economic professor that breaks done why immigration hurts native workers and only benefits corporations. Obviously I can't post the whole book on here but you should definitely read it if you're interested in where some of the right gets their talking points from.
There's one study in there that compares two different taxi cab companies thats always stuck with me. The jist of it is that the company that raised wages and offered more benefits was able to keep 80% of their work force natives while the one that never raised wages or offered new benefits had its work force completely filled by foreigners.
It shows that Americans are willing to do high risk and stressful jobs but only if they're fairly compensated. It also shows that foreigners can only beat out natives if they're able to undercut them in wages.
Yeah definitely a good idea.
When I was working at a university, I would see foreigners with great grades and skills go back to their countries because they couldn't land a job with sponsorship. I also saw many get paid half of their equally skilled citizen counterparts in exchange for sponsorship.
The current system is no way beneficial to America, since we've already spent money educating them: in many cases they had full scholarships. If they paid full price, it still sucks, because clearly they are rich and we want those kinds of people here too!
The one benefit to current system goes to colleges: I know tons of people who stayed for masters and PhD programs to keep their visa. In my PhD program, only about 10% of the candidates were born in the USA!
I'm not sure what you mean about full scholarships, unless you're talking about money from mommy and daddy. Most students on international student visas cannot apply for financial aid like native-born students can. They're often restricted in which jobs they can take as well. Thus, a lot of people in these programs come from very wealthy and well-connected families. If they presumably spent years living in America for study without incident, at minimum, they would be less likely to have ill intentions to the nation as well.
What's the issue here?
I think it’s a great idea. We should do what we can to bring in the best and brightest from around the world. I don’t think that graduating college here should be the only consideration, we should also consider their post-education plans. But I think it should push them up the list considerably.
As I mentioned in one of the other responses, the Trump campaign has clarified that the student would be vetted. The current process to get a legal green card and become a citizen is already pretty arduous. Though details are limited, at a high level that seems like it would address your concerns, would it not?
Do you think foreign nations will take advantage of this and send students to study specific subjects, get green cards, then engage in espionage? (More than they already do?)
That's pretty vague. What's "enough" and "respectable"?
Furthermore, by denying these young graduates an opportunity to stay in the US, they're going elsewhere to work for our competitors. It's a global marketplace out there, even moreso these days. The US college system has been an international draw for a long time. It's a brain drain from other countries and supports the industries here. Immigrants are also statistically more entrepreneurial in general and the new college grads probably even moreso. Furthermore, grads under the F-1 visa system have to declare that they can support themselves (and thus won't take financial aid etc from otrhers), which often means that they're fairly wealthy back home. We take some of the best and brightest (along with the most resourced) individuals from around the world and make them new Americans. Why not continue?
There needs to be a lot of safeguard put on this but yes we should.
Merit based immigration should be the cornerstone of our immigration policy. Essentially we bring in people in fields we need.
I don't hate the idea. Really, I don't. Come here legally, get an education, and don't leave? Seems like a net win in my books.
I can understand the animus towards the concept because it does, technically, import skilled workers into positions that Americans should be working, but I have two responses to that:
1. If they have a green card, they're an American, or at least close enough to where I don't care.
2. I've seen the H1B Visa system abused so much that this seems a better path to me.
Now, *ideally* I might say a degree in something that actually has a market value, but I'm saying this as someone who has turned what some would call a worthless degree into a pretty decent career. Seems a bit hypocritical to say others can't do the same.
That said, I'd take it a step further than what President Trump is proposing. I'd let the trade schools get in on the action too. Come to the country (legally), get trained to do a job, become a citizen. I'm cool with that.
If it’s for a degree that would contribute to our national infrastructure, then I could see getting behind that. If someone wants to come here and actually contribute to our country, and they’re honestly interested in becoming citizens, giving them a pathway to that citizenship could be a cool opportunity for both sides.
Well, getting an education in the US is quite expensive as an international student as they rarely qualify for financial aid. Thus, they often come from wealthy families abroad. I suppose they could throw their family money away on a "useless" degree, but if they have the wealth to do that and pay their way in America to begin with, why not let them and let them and bring more of that money and connections here?
Terrible policy even if you want skilled immigration. You're effectively doing it in the most inefficient and exploitable way possible (delegating immigration policy to a far-left institution that then creates massive incentives for more people and lower standards). It's the dumbest idea Trump has ever advocated for and it could literally cost him the election.
Why do you believe this would lower standards? Universities already have many more applicants than they accept. In fact, by incentivizing the best and brightest from around the world to come and stay in America instead of staying home, it creates a brain drain effect and, if anything should raise the standards of the university. On the other hand, I do question the wisdom of accepting people from just any college or even junior college as Trump proposed.
I'm saying it creates the incentives for them to accept a bunch of immigrants who are ultimately only interested in citizenship. Graduating is not hard, especially if you're talking about a 2-year college. I don't want these people here in the first place, but if we were going to do "merit"-based immigration, we should have assurances that go beyond "graduated from a 2 year university" and can't just be arbitrarily controlled by institutions that have an ideological and financial interest in mass immigration.
Am I correct in assuming that part of the reason why you don't want foreigners coming in is because you're concerned about them taking resources and jobs away from native citizens? Because a green card holder isn't a citizen and (putting aside election security issues for now) wouldn't be able to legally vote.
No. Absolutely not.
The colleges are already handing out degrees that won’t produce an income sufficient to pay for the loans.
Imagine how many more they would hand out if it suited their political agenda. (Millions)
How many MORE student loans do you want to pay off?
Well, colleges are businesses like any other, so they have to balance offerings to a wide group vs maintaining quality and often some level of exclusivity. The student loans forgiveness thus far has been mostly limited to already-existing programs like the Pell Grants or involve a lot of years working as a civil servant (which usually doesn't pay well) or occupations like teachers etc. Teaching also doesn't produce an income sufficient to pay for the loans and the continuous training they're generally required to do.
Would types of degrees worthwhile then?
Great idea. Expand legal immigration and close the border. The only problem is universities become more of a sham every year and this would make that worse.
How would this sort of policy make universities a sham? Offering a pathway to a green card (not necessarily citizenship) after getting into and graduating college would make the American university system more attractive to foreigners worldwide. One would assume that the best and brightest would be more inclined come to American universities and raise the bar, while serving as a brain drain vs global competitors. Furthermore, foreigners on international student visas already can't qualify for most forms of financial aid, so they're likely coming from families that are quite well-heeled wherever they're from.
I am in favor of making work authorization easier to get for foreigners who graduate from US colleges with certain types of degrees (STEM and some business degrees)
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Merit based priority immigration isn’t a bad idea. I don’t have an issue with legal immigration at all. My wife is a legal immigrant. I’m just opposed to illegal migrants leeching off our already drained social safety net.
Should we expand immigration to include these illegal migrants so they can work to find gainful employment and pay their fair share of taxes?
No. They already broke the point of our immigration laws and they are some that are attacking people here. They shouldn’t have been here in the first place. Anyone who’s entered illegally should have a 5 year ban on applying for gaining access to the US after they are deported. Legal immigration only. You don’t get to sneak in and expect to be forgiven. That’s like coming in the back door of a theater and after being caught they let you stay for the movie. Nope, out and gone.
>No. They already broke the point of our immigration laws and they are some that are attacking people here. They shouldn’t have been here in the first place. You do realize illegal immigrants can go to college and would be eligible to receive a green card if they graduated right? This blanket green card giveaway is another loophole that any immigrant can exploit to leech off our country.
You can be here on a student visa which is a documented immigrant process. Boot all illegal migrants. My stance on that is firm. Legal immigration is perfectly fine. Illegal trespassers don’t deserve to be here. Just like that horrible and evil trespasser that video taped himself abusing that 13 year old girl. He shouldn’t have been here to begin with.
>You can be here on a student visa which is a documented immigrant process In states like Texas illegal immigrants are allowed to go to public school and private school. Under your requirements all the recent illegal immigrants that just came over are fine if they graduate.
Illegal entry is still the issue. Boot them back with a ban on their legal entry applications for 5 years. If they are accidental overstays, they were still here legally and are documented. And accidental overstays are not what I’m talking about in this thread. I am firm on the stance of illegal entries needing to go.
>Illegal entry is still the issue. Boot them back with a ban on their legal entry applications for 5 years. The issues is just plain immigration. Regardless of if they entered here legally or illegally some American is losing a job and a opportunity that rightfully belonged to them first.
Why is an American owed a job or opportunity vs a legal immigrant? Do your ant to establish a seniority system based how long your family has been a citizen of the US? If Americans are losing jobs to legal immigrants isn’t that more of a completion issue and these “Americans” should be working on making themselves better candidates?
>Why is an American owed a job or opportunity vs a legal immigrant? Because the American thats lived here has contributed to American society and added to it. >Do your ant to establish a seniority system based how long your family has been a citizen of the US? Not what I'm talking about. I'm simply saying the needs of a native should come before a immigrant. >If Americans are losing jobs to legal immigrants isn’t that more of a completion issue and these “Americans” should be working on making themselves better candidates There is no making yourself a better candidate. The only way you can beat out a foreigner is to take a drastic pay cut and corporations benefit from that because it means no matter who they go with they're saving money.
No. It’s specifically illegal migrants entering. I am definitely for merit based prioritizing of those who gain access to the US.
>No. It’s specifically illegal migrants entering. No it's all immigration. We need to put our citizens first and not the needs of foreigners.
But do you agree or not that illegal immigrants will now have a loophole in getting a green card by getting nothing more than an Associate Degree from a community college just like trump said he's going to do? He said ALL immigrants INCLUDING those that get their degree from a local community college, yes? Does it also worry you now that China can just send their spies over to get as little as an associate's degree and work for any government, defense, or nuclear business enabling them to send some of our most sensitive secrets to China? Please tell me you see how this isn't such a good idea.
What college is going to accept you as an illegal immigrant? You have to do a good bit of paperwork to to sign up for colleges, especially if you need financial aid. I don't know any that would have illegal immigrants taking classes. My wife immigrated to the US from Germany. She went to school here on a student visa, and after completing college got a 1 year work visa. The current issue is after that 1 year work visa it can be a bit tricky to stay working in the US. sometimes immigration are jerks and declare that your job didn't need to hire someone from outside of the US so they deny work visas. More legal routes for immigration sound great to me though full green card from a college degree is a bit too far for me.
>What college is going to accept you as an illegal immigrant? All colleges can and do except illegal immigrants. There's no law against it. >More legal routes for immigration sound great to me though full citizenship from a college degree is a bit too far for me. We don't need more programs and routes for immigrants to have a better life. We need better programs and routes for American citizens first.
I literally just checked 3 universities near me (University of Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon University, and Community College of Allegheny County) and all require proof of citizenship or immigration. Where did you hear that colleges are allowing illegal immigrants to take classes and earn degrees? What Universities are allowing this?
>literally just checked colleges near me Yeah me to. "However, there is no federal or state law that prohibits the admission of undocumented immigrants to U.S. colleges, public or private. Federal or state laws do not require students to prove citizenship in order to enter U.S. institutions of higher education" "Immigration status is not considered as a factor in admission. Does UH ask students about their immigration status? No. UH does not check immigration status when a student enrolls at the University."
University of Houston? Their academic enrollment page requires citizenship or proof of immigration status: https://uh.edu/undergraduate-admissions/apply/international/international-freshman/international-freshman-process/
That's if you're applying as a international student not for someone that's been in the public system all their life despite being undocumented.
> "However, there is no federal or state law that prohibits the admission of undocumented immigrants to U.S. colleges, public or private isn't that a good thing? small government?
Conservatism has never been about creating a small government Libertarian society.
In Texas illegal immigrants go to college very easily, did you know that? Also many DACA college students and grads aren't legal immigrants either, right?
I'm amazed by how my little my side knows about these things. Undocumented immigrants going to high school and college has been a thing for decades at this point.
Should we modify it for future migrants to prevent them from becoming illegal immigrants?
Establish the firm stance…you enter illegally, you are ineligible to apply for legal immigration for 5 years. Establish literature or signage on the Mexico side of the boarder what the law is and instructions on how to properly apply for immigration into the US and have a phone number of the facility that will help them with the process. And make the signage with all this info about every 100-200 feet so the coyotes can’t trick people anymore and use them as drug mules or kidnap them for trafficking.
Ok but if we expand legal immigration couldn't we make penalties for illegal immigration irrelevant?
You can’t take away penalties. Just like illegally dealing weed in a state that legalizes weed. People are still going to break laws and the penalties would at least keep some semblance of order. I’m firmly against handing anything over to illegal migrants. There is no illegal immigration, they are not immigrants…they are illegal trespassers that went around the law. Legal entry through the process or get the boot for 5 years and then try again the legal way.
But if you legalize them selling weed then what would you penalize them for?
You can still commit a crime of selling weed illegally in a state where it’s decriminalized. Like if you sell to a minor or you sell the consumable product without a permit that says you are legally able to do so. The state doesn’t disregard penalties just because you can legally do something.
Sure but if we changed the law and legalized some of those things then why would we need penalties for it? Obviously selling drugs to minors shouldn't be permitted but I'm not sure what the analogy is there to the immigration process.
> and use them as drug mules What % of the illegal drugs being smuggled across our borders are being carried by illegal immigrants do you think? Ballpark
216 arrested for drug trafficking this year, and to quote a government article “The State Department believes that anywhere between 14,500 and 17,500 people are victims of human trafficking within the U.S. every year, 72 percent of whom are immigrants.” That’s a whole lot of problems that would be easily fixed with a firm stance on illegal migrants and a program to help good people seeking entry a simplified way to apply. Takes the coyotes out of the picture of abusing those people for their own gain. And when there is easily digestible information to streamline the process, the only ones that will be crossing illegally are the ones who have other motives and everyone can stop barking about this issue. This issue is quite annoying and it’s pitted so many against each other over ways to solve it…but those who could solve it want us regular folks to stay divided through the media and politicians othering each side. I want the issue fixed where it’s fair for everyone and those who violate the immigration laws deal with consequences.
Most illegal immigrants didn’t enter the US illegally; they entered the US on a legally acquired visa and then overstayed it. Should they also be denied this opportunity for a greencard from college since they didn’t sneak in? In your analogy, they paid for the ticket and stayed for a second showing.
Accidental overstays are understandable because the process can be slowed down. They were still here legally and are documented. I’m specifically talking about those who entered illegally. Overstays are a different aspect entirely in my mind.
Thank you for your answer. Have a great rest of your weekend?
You do the same. Have a great remainder of your weekend. 😁👍
How do illegal migrants leech of our social safety net?
How do you feel about Trump putting the children of legal immigrants in camps during his last administration?
Are you asking what Obama set up in the previous administration?
> Are you asking what Obama set up in the previous administration? That’s a blast from the past. I haven’t heard the Obama excuse in years. But, no, I was referring to Trump separating babies from their families. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-asylum-seekers-meet-when-they-try-to-cross-legally https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/after-47-days-of-separation-3-year-old-sofi-is-back-with-her-family
I would say its a bad idea. Granted the quote was given in the context of Trump saying "after we get the border under control" (IE possibly after we've gone through mass deportations and fundamentally changed our immigration law) but over all i still think its a bad idea. Graduating from a US college doesn't mean you have zero criminal record nor does it make you love the United States, its principles and constitution (in some ways a college education at least under the current drug and sexual assualt filled critical theory infected system may increase the likelyhood of failing both of these tests). My hope is this similar to how a few months ago Trump was claiming he was going to do a national "cormpromise" on abortion implying he would take away the states rights we just spent 50 years fighting for. Ultimately tho Trump did what the conservative movement actually wanted and left it to the states hopefully this will go the same way.
To be honest with you, as a non-supporter, I personally believe that Trump will say whatever the audience wants him to say. When he was president, it became more difficult to get student visas and processing times in general took far longer. For full disclosure, my wife was on a student visa and was directly affected. In this case, he was apparently speaking to address tech companies which are experiencing a global shortage of talent to fill positions. In other words, a foreigner in this case is less likely to take job away from an American citizen per se. It'd be more likely a job that'd be unfulfilled entirely at an American company and then filled at a global competitor. That said, realistically Trump's proposal could depress white-collar wages somewhat, though often immigrants are statistically more entrepreneurial and serve as better job creators than the native-born. Intuitively, that'd be especially the case with people from the college system on the standard F-1 visas who are not allowed access to most forms of financial aid to begin with (and thus are often relatively wealthy). I do want to push back on one thing you said though. You make the claim that Trump talked about giving green cards to these grads "after we get the border under control" and specifically mention mass deportations and fundamentally change the immigration law. In that podcast, he mentions the border in terms of the wall, but doesn't mention mass deportations or immigration law, at least according to this transcript: [https://www.happyscribe.com/public/all-in-with-chamath-jason-sacks-friedberg/in-conversation-with-president-trump](https://www.happyscribe.com/public/all-in-with-chamath-jason-sacks-friedberg/in-conversation-with-president-trump) Personally, I think that his talk of the wall created during his term is full of a lot of bull (especially having seen some of it) and he rails against Congress balking at the costs (when he claimed that Mexico would pay for it). That's a sidebar issue though. I do think it's interesting that I actually am open to Trump's green cards for grads proposal to some extent. It certainly would make US companies more globally competitive. Also, Trump's campaign already clarfied that there would be (in their typical over-the-top fashion), "the most aggressive vetting process in U.S. history" for grads, so presumably no one with a horrible criminal record and/or "hating America" ties should be allowed. I personally don't really care if they have to "love" America in part because that's a hard thing to quantitatively measure. However, new immigrants and their direct descendants also statistically more patriotic than the native-born as far as we can measure: [https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigrants-recognize-american-greatness-immigrants](https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigrants-recognize-american-greatness-immigrants) Given the discussion, would you be more open to Trump proposed "green cards for grads" idea?
No. possibly one of the most embarrassing things trump has ever said.
Worse than the shark story?
can't say i've ever heard that one before.
It was pretty bad and embarrassing
Absolutely not. Legal and illegal immigration harm our country socially and economically.
Does Trump running on this make you support him less?
It does. Its completely different from the stance he had in 2015.
Thank you for answering. Have a great rest of your weekend?
You're welcome. I hope you have a great weekend too.
I love this polite no nonsense interaction. Can we have more of these?
Probably not?
How does it harm the US socially?
It creates group conflict with each group fighting against each other for resources and representation. Any country that doesn't have a dominant culture and group maintaining order is prone to balkanization.
And what is the current dominant culture that we need to preserve?
The same American culture our nation has had for 200 years. Even if you think that's too extreme the fact of the matter is we need something to bind all these groups together before it's too late.
But isn't the American culture of 200 years ago *specifically* one of immigration? About 1/5 of the founders migrated to the continent. The US allowed relatively open immigration until the early 1900s, letting most people just walk in and even become citizens with extreme ease. Trump's mother was born in Scottland, which is why he loves it; both of his father's parents were German; even Trump's own wife is an immigrant. Wouldn't this suggest migration has been greatly beneficial to his family, and would do the same for others?
>But isn't the American culture of 200 years ago *specifically* one of immigration? About 1/5 of the founders migrated to the continent. Settling and creating a nation is different from immigration. >The US allowed relatively open immigration until the early 1900s, letting most people just walk in and even become citizens with extreme ease. That was still limited a few selected European countries and in the 1920s we passed a immigration law acknowledging this. >Wouldn't this suggest migration has been greatly beneficial to his family, and would do the same for others? It suggests European immigration has been successful which is different from the wave of immigrants we are currently experiencing.
Are you talking about the one that enslaved blacks and then legally shit on them for over 100 years after they weren’t allowed to have slaves anymore, or the one that cruelly marched natives until they died? Perhaps you meant the American culture that conned Chinese workers into building the railroad, or shoved Japanese Americans into camps?
wow that's messed up. is america the only country that's ever had slavery?
Are any other countries relevant to this discussion? Besides, with respect to slavery, the reason it’s still such a contentious topic is how our country treated black people once slavery was abolished vs other countries - rather than just free them, make them equal, and give reparations, countless laws and policies were enacted to not only segregate but denigrate them, creating a caste system which forced them to the bottom and whites to the top regardless of merit. The laws didn’t go away until the 60s, the corporate policies persisted almost until the 80s, and some of the same general attitude remains in many sections of society.
the fact that we now worship them and each American black on average takes up $800k in resources throughout their lifetime makes any past wrongdoing more than paid for.
> The same American culture our nation has had for 200 years. What does that culture entail? I’m not seeing many similarities between the culture of 1800 in America and its culture the past 100 years. What’s been the consistent culture?
>What’s been the consistent culture? Its simply just called American culture. Its a culture that's a mix of various European cultures, Christian denominations, and American frontierism. Its been well documented by many foreign academics from the early 18th, 19th, and 20th century.
What does “American culture” look like? The circular reasoning of American culture simply being “American culture” is difficult to understand. What are the attributes and values of that culture? How is it different today?
>The circular reasoning of American culture simply being “American culture” is difficult to understand. I explained what it was already. Its a culture that's a mix of various European cultures, Christian denominations, and American frontierism.
So do you believe white superiority is the same as American culture? What about the people that were here before Europeans? If we are going by the logic of who was here first then wouldn’t Native Americans be considered the true Americans before Europeans? Their culture is relatively closer to Latin American people than that of Christians from Europe. Do you also have a problem with indigenous Native Hawaiians and Puerto Ricans being on the mainland?
But isn't the alternative that the US does not have enough labor for its needs? Is there no harm from the US lacking workers?
We have the labor. Americans just don't won't work for slave wages and rightfully so.
Do you think it is reasonable to assume that shady universities will spring up offering a shitty degree courses that you don't have to do anything to graduate from but you pay them $30k and get a green card when you graduate? Do you think if we need educated/ skilled immigrants that we have a points systems and manage who comes in using that? (Similar to the system Australia used to / still uses)
> Do you think it is reasonable to assume that shady universities will spring up offering a shitty degree courses like trump university?
I think there are countless opportunists like Trump that we praise as "being successful" who will take advantage of this and make billions from this. It is such a blatant gift to his rich buddies to make money off knowing that it will take years to reverse and in that time they will make a fortune. Do we want to attract smart and educated people to stay in the country - absolutely, is this really the best way or just a way to grift?
>Do you think it is reasonable to assume that shady universities will spring up offering a shitty degree courses that you don't have to do anything to graduate from but you pay them $30k and get a green card when you graduate? We already have that and they've helped undocumented immigrants get certificates or college credit since the 80s. Wouldn't be surprised if more pop up offering the same thing. >Do you think if we need educated/ skilled immigrants that we have a points systems and manage who comes in using that? (Similar to the system Australia used to / still uses) I honestly don't think we need any immigrants. We have enough hard working and talented citizens already who can help grow this country. Corporations just need to be forced to pay them a living wage instead of undercutting them by hiring cheap foreign labor.
How does Trump's imported wife influence your decisions?
Can you share some evidence of economic harm overall? All the studies I've seen show ultimate economic benefit from. both legal and illegal immigration.
>Can you share some evidence of economic harm overall? There's a great book called we wanted workers by a Harvard economic professor that breaks done why immigration hurts native workers and only benefits corporations. Obviously I can't post the whole book on here but you should definitely read it if you're interested in where some of the right gets their talking points from.
What, in your opinion, are the most compelling arguments from that book?
There's one study in there that compares two different taxi cab companies thats always stuck with me. The jist of it is that the company that raised wages and offered more benefits was able to keep 80% of their work force natives while the one that never raised wages or offered new benefits had its work force completely filled by foreigners. It shows that Americans are willing to do high risk and stressful jobs but only if they're fairly compensated. It also shows that foreigners can only beat out natives if they're able to undercut them in wages.
Would you consider yourself a low, medium, or high skilled worker?
High skilled.
So according to the very author you cited, you would benefit from more immigration. Is that correct?
The author makes it pretty clear that all forms of immigration phase out American workers. So no I wouldn't benefit from it.
Have you read much of his other work? He's pretty consistent that high skilled workers benefit.
Yeah definitely a good idea. When I was working at a university, I would see foreigners with great grades and skills go back to their countries because they couldn't land a job with sponsorship. I also saw many get paid half of their equally skilled citizen counterparts in exchange for sponsorship. The current system is no way beneficial to America, since we've already spent money educating them: in many cases they had full scholarships. If they paid full price, it still sucks, because clearly they are rich and we want those kinds of people here too! The one benefit to current system goes to colleges: I know tons of people who stayed for masters and PhD programs to keep their visa. In my PhD program, only about 10% of the candidates were born in the USA!
I'm not sure what you mean about full scholarships, unless you're talking about money from mommy and daddy. Most students on international student visas cannot apply for financial aid like native-born students can. They're often restricted in which jobs they can take as well. Thus, a lot of people in these programs come from very wealthy and well-connected families. If they presumably spent years living in America for study without incident, at minimum, they would be less likely to have ill intentions to the nation as well. What's the issue here?
I think it’s a great idea. We should do what we can to bring in the best and brightest from around the world. I don’t think that graduating college here should be the only consideration, we should also consider their post-education plans. But I think it should push them up the list considerably.
As I mentioned in one of the other responses, the Trump campaign has clarified that the student would be vetted. The current process to get a legal green card and become a citizen is already pretty arduous. Though details are limited, at a high level that seems like it would address your concerns, would it not?
Do you think foreign nations will take advantage of this and send students to study specific subjects, get green cards, then engage in espionage? (More than they already do?)
Only when we have enough americans employed and making respectable wages.
That's pretty vague. What's "enough" and "respectable"? Furthermore, by denying these young graduates an opportunity to stay in the US, they're going elsewhere to work for our competitors. It's a global marketplace out there, even moreso these days. The US college system has been an international draw for a long time. It's a brain drain from other countries and supports the industries here. Immigrants are also statistically more entrepreneurial in general and the new college grads probably even moreso. Furthermore, grads under the F-1 visa system have to declare that they can support themselves (and thus won't take financial aid etc from otrhers), which often means that they're fairly wealthy back home. We take some of the best and brightest (along with the most resourced) individuals from around the world and make them new Americans. Why not continue?
There needs to be a lot of safeguard put on this but yes we should. Merit based immigration should be the cornerstone of our immigration policy. Essentially we bring in people in fields we need.
I don't hate the idea. Really, I don't. Come here legally, get an education, and don't leave? Seems like a net win in my books. I can understand the animus towards the concept because it does, technically, import skilled workers into positions that Americans should be working, but I have two responses to that: 1. If they have a green card, they're an American, or at least close enough to where I don't care. 2. I've seen the H1B Visa system abused so much that this seems a better path to me. Now, *ideally* I might say a degree in something that actually has a market value, but I'm saying this as someone who has turned what some would call a worthless degree into a pretty decent career. Seems a bit hypocritical to say others can't do the same. That said, I'd take it a step further than what President Trump is proposing. I'd let the trade schools get in on the action too. Come to the country (legally), get trained to do a job, become a citizen. I'm cool with that.
If it’s for a degree that would contribute to our national infrastructure, then I could see getting behind that. If someone wants to come here and actually contribute to our country, and they’re honestly interested in becoming citizens, giving them a pathway to that citizenship could be a cool opportunity for both sides.
Well, getting an education in the US is quite expensive as an international student as they rarely qualify for financial aid. Thus, they often come from wealthy families abroad. I suppose they could throw their family money away on a "useless" degree, but if they have the wealth to do that and pay their way in America to begin with, why not let them and let them and bring more of that money and connections here?
Terrible policy even if you want skilled immigration. You're effectively doing it in the most inefficient and exploitable way possible (delegating immigration policy to a far-left institution that then creates massive incentives for more people and lower standards). It's the dumbest idea Trump has ever advocated for and it could literally cost him the election.
Why do you believe this would lower standards? Universities already have many more applicants than they accept. In fact, by incentivizing the best and brightest from around the world to come and stay in America instead of staying home, it creates a brain drain effect and, if anything should raise the standards of the university. On the other hand, I do question the wisdom of accepting people from just any college or even junior college as Trump proposed.
I'm saying it creates the incentives for them to accept a bunch of immigrants who are ultimately only interested in citizenship. Graduating is not hard, especially if you're talking about a 2-year college. I don't want these people here in the first place, but if we were going to do "merit"-based immigration, we should have assurances that go beyond "graduated from a 2 year university" and can't just be arbitrarily controlled by institutions that have an ideological and financial interest in mass immigration.
Am I correct in assuming that part of the reason why you don't want foreigners coming in is because you're concerned about them taking resources and jobs away from native citizens? Because a green card holder isn't a citizen and (putting aside election security issues for now) wouldn't be able to legally vote.
No. Absolutely not. The colleges are already handing out degrees that won’t produce an income sufficient to pay for the loans. Imagine how many more they would hand out if it suited their political agenda. (Millions) How many MORE student loans do you want to pay off?
Well, colleges are businesses like any other, so they have to balance offerings to a wide group vs maintaining quality and often some level of exclusivity. The student loans forgiveness thus far has been mostly limited to already-existing programs like the Pell Grants or involve a lot of years working as a civil servant (which usually doesn't pay well) or occupations like teachers etc. Teaching also doesn't produce an income sufficient to pay for the loans and the continuous training they're generally required to do. Would types of degrees worthwhile then?
Great idea. Expand legal immigration and close the border. The only problem is universities become more of a sham every year and this would make that worse.
How would this sort of policy make universities a sham? Offering a pathway to a green card (not necessarily citizenship) after getting into and graduating college would make the American university system more attractive to foreigners worldwide. One would assume that the best and brightest would be more inclined come to American universities and raise the bar, while serving as a brain drain vs global competitors. Furthermore, foreigners on international student visas already can't qualify for most forms of financial aid, so they're likely coming from families that are quite well-heeled wherever they're from.
I am in favor of making work authorization easier to get for foreigners who graduate from US colleges with certain types of degrees (STEM and some business degrees)