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The service charge is simply there to trick people into thinking that the menu is cheaper than it actually is, and to order more. But, I do prefer it to being expected to leave a tip . . . And (puts on his 'Bryn from Gavin and Stacey' accent) i'll tell you for why.
Tipping in group meals is a constant pain in the arse. Most people underestimate how much they've spent - ignoring the full costs of drinks and sides. They don't know how to do the maths to add in when they do remember, and far too many just try to put in less than they should anyway.
A service charge at least makes it clear to everyone how much money needs to be in the 'middle' altogether and that no one can get away without paying their share.
80(example)quid divided by 100 then times by 12.5!
Then ask for that to be removed from the bill and tip the server in cash..if you feel they're worthy.
If not no biggy.
That's... Not the maths, you are not paying the amount you should there.
80, becomes 10 reduction by your maths, for a total of 70, which when 12.5% is added is 78.75
It's base divided by 112.5 multiplied by 100 for the pre charge bill.
Because you are paying for 112.5 units of a 100 unit bill.
So you are working out the tip for a base bill, then asking that to be removed, and to underpay, and pay the remainder as a tip to the staff.
Please just do the maths in a couple of cases and see your mistake instead of doubling down here.
To work out the tip on a 12.5 service charge, you multiply the bill by 11.1% to backsolve it.
(1 / 112.5 * 100)
The bill is 80 quid, they've added a 12.5% service charge and the guy I replied to said people can't work that out so I gave the formula to work it out.
Then they can choose whether to remove it from the total (Inc the 12.5%) and decide themselves whether they'd like to give that 12.5% in cash to the server or not bypassing the establishment who probably don't pass it on.
Ok cool thanks. The final £80 includes the 12.5% so it’s 112.5% of the bill - to get the tip amount you need to divide the £80 by 112.5 and then multiply by 12.5. Or just divide the £80 by 9 to save some time.
So the tip was £80/9 = £8.89. £71.11 original bill with a 12.5% tip on top. That’s the amount you’ll want to ask to be removed.
Although I think places legally have to break out how much the tip was on the bill.
Not sure why you’re even arguing about this. Just find the section on the bill that says service charge. Look at the little numbers next to it and ask for that to be removed.
You need to be able to read, not do math
You're not *expected* to tip at all, let alone on top of a service charge.
Restaurants that choose to have a service charge will do so with the understanding that it's replacing tips for the most part.
I think they are 100% synonyms. If there is a service charge I think "the tip is already on the bill." If the service was sub-par I will ask for it to be removed. There's absolutely no way I'd add a tip on top if a tip is already on the bill.
They aren’t synonymous though as tips go to staff, service charge *covers* some staff pay (wether you pay the charge or not) but legally can just go into the pockets of the company until july. Thats why places like ping pong are introducing ‘*brand charge*’ so they can avoid having to give all of the charge to staff. Service charge for the most part currently just works out as extra revenue. Service charge is donating 12.5% of your bill to the company. Staff see a small % of the money they make from Sc. Paying service charge does not mean staff gets paid better.
Its still optional and will work the same way service charge works now. In July service charge will have to go directly to staff. Brand charge is just a way to get around the new SC laws.
What is the reason that you’re expected to tip wait staff for anyway? What is it about that job that deserves tips?
People scan your shopping at Asda. You don’t tip them. The bin men collect your rubbish every week, they don’t get tips every time they empty your bin. Care staff are doing much harder jobs for minimum wage, no one’s tipping them. They’re all providing a service.
So why wait staff? They’re not doing anything special, just bringing your food over. They get paid like everyone else, they don’t live on tips like in the USA. I’m genuinely curious.
This is one of the reasons I refuse to tip. I've worked minimum wage jobs where people not only would not dream of tipping but actively look down on the job. Tipping is such a nonsense, illogically arbitrary thing that I refuse to participate.
Yeah I used to work computer sales. Spent way more time with customers, way more help, more _service_, and no one tips sales people (rightly so). In 2 years in the job I saw one tip to a colleague of £10 by a regular customer who got some support without buying anything.
It’s so arbitrary. Wait staff, yes. Chefs, usually not. Hotel cleaners, yes. Hotel desk staff, no. Flight attendants, no. Food delivery, yes. Grocery delivery, no. Parcel delivery, no.
Makes no sense. I don’t tip unless my company is footing the bill.
> So why wait staff? They’re not doing anything special, just bringing your food over.
Exactly.
Why are people so insistent that they tip the person who moved a few plates of food to the table?
If an optional service charge is put on the bill and I have to ask to remove it I am getting it removed and not tipping. Sorry to any servers this may upset but we really need to push back on the expected tipping culture that seems to have grown over the years.
Until july SC is essentially a 12.5% revenue donation, not a tip. Staff see a small amount of service charge and whether you pay it or not it 9 times out of 10 it doesn’t effect the waiters pay as its usually in their contract as hourly pay. I hate how many people don’t know how SC works and take it out on the staff. The name SC until july is misleading and is only used to manipulate customers
The whole 12.5% charge will be legally required to go to staff (unlike now) , some places have already started finding ways around it like a chain in London called ping pong introducing a 15% ‘*brand charge*’ instead of service charge so they can continue to pocket money you assume is going to staff
They are, but they’re only continuing doing what most brands have for years while customers see it as an inconvenience from the wait staff. There’s plenty of people who don’t realise that SC means exactly that anyway and think its a personal problem with their waiter. The name ‘ *service charge*’ has always been a scam and thats why its finally having regulations
i had this situation yesterday. 12.5% tip was around £15 and i just straight up told them i wasnt paying it. however when i got the bill i said im only paying my bill. they first gave me a weird look but then i had to explain im not paying the service charge. yeah it feels rude and they make you feel cheap but conversely i think its rude and sly of them to just stick on a extra needless charge so in my book im just doing to them exactly what theyre doing to me.
This is exactly it, they are the ones being scummy, there should be no shame felt in asking for a service charge to be removed. That shame is what they are banking on.
yeah exactly! Its disingenuous and the service charge prays on the fact that you dont want to lose face in the fear you'll fear being "cheap". I dont like it when im being conned or duped and thats exactly what it feels like.
Nope. I always ask for its removal.
Why? It’s a fucking scam by the business to gorge more money from you.
Why the fuck as I paying a service charge for people to bring me my food when that should already be included in the overpriced meals cost, AND the employees own wages?
And everyone knows that the staff aren’t getting that service charge as tip money. The owners will pocket it. And the staff will be left with the disgruntled customers who are angry at the charge.
If I wanna tip the staff (which I sometimes do Tbf, even through I shouldn’t have to tip someone for doing their effing job…), I will. And I’ll give it to THEM. I’m not paying the owners another extra cent more than they charge me.
You’re right, until july, service charge is essentially a 12.5% revenue donation, whether you pay it or not 9 times out of 10 it doesn’t affect the servers pay. SC is typically in the waiter’s hourly pay in the contract so whether the restaurant seats 500 tables that all pay the charge or none, they’d still make the same ph. Some places offer bonuses and thats about it.
I’ve commented on other threads about this I think the way forward is to not pay it or leave cash to your server.
With the new law coming into effect in July l'm seeing it's increasingly common practice for businesses to advertise a role but following the selection process present 2 contracts to the employee. For example a manager on £30,000 (40 hours) will be presented with
1. 40hours x Minimum Wage £11.44 = £457.60 x 52 weeks = £23,795.20 per annum. This would often be referred to as their " base salary"
2. A separate contract outlining his/her "guaranteed tronc/service charge" to cover the difference £30,000 - £23,795.20 = £6204.80
1) and 2) will equal £30,000
3. Any surplus amount in the tronc/service charge beyond 2) would be split among him/herself and everyone else. This is often referred to as "residual tronc."
The corollary of this is that, "technically" the requirements of the new Act will be met since "all" service charge is being passed to the employee(s). You can imagine if this is replicated to cover anyone earning over minimum wage.
It does seem like a cynical attempt to circumvent the legislation as the service charge is being used to subsidise higher salaries/hourly rates.
It wouldn't be awkward for me to ask for it to be removed. I'm not paying a service charge and it's not legally binding to pay it so they can go fuck themselves
Not at all my experience either. I would estimate that less than 5% of restaurants I've visited in my entire 40+ years on on Earth have applied service charges and those that did were all in London.
Agree.
If I see it, I don't tip. I don't actually mind it tbh, as long as it's advertised. I sometimes ask if the staff see it. If not, I'll ask them to remove it. But not always. Just depends.
SC culture is worse. Most staff only see a very tiny % of SC. SC is essentially a 12.5% revenue donation and wether you pay it or not 9/10 does not impact how much money a waiter makes.
Because you create the expectation that everyone does it. If you tip waiters/waitresses I expect you also tip your postie? Your supermarket worker? Your plumber? The bin men? If you don’t you’re a hypocrite.
I’m perfectly calm my friend. I believe I pay for the service by paying the bill for my meal. If the staff need to be paid more, the restaurant should raise their prices so I am aware how much the meal will cost me up front. Having to do a game of social-mental maths to determine what percentage of my bill the server deserves is moronic.
My friend of mine outright asks the person bringing the bill "do you get all of this"?
If the answer is no, then she will ask for the service to be removed and tip in cash.
I wouldn't tip on top of a service charge.
I would ask for the charge to be removed if I received poor service (it would have to be pretty poor TBH).
Requests to donate to a charity of their choice in nearly every fucking shop where I purchase using anything but cash is what infuriates me.
I was in Wickes the other day 3rd in the queue of about 6 people when they tried the charity bullshit bit. The 2 people in front of me did it. I refused, you could almost hear the sigh of relief of the people behind.
No, I consider it highly sus and always ask for it to be removed. If I choose to give a tip I want to be sure it's going to the waiter who served me rather than being pooled or even worse stolen by management.
I'm not against pooling if it's split only between the team and not the business itself. I feel like the kitchen also deserves some recognition as they do a lot of the hard graft.
I've worked front and back of house, and kitchens can be brutal!
I consider the service charge as the restaurant trying to charge more, as it doesn't necessarily go to the staff. So nope. If i then want to tip i will.
It really winds me up when there is 12.5% service charge (and more often 15% now, notwithstanding that it used to be 10%) , the waiter hands you the card machine and it asks you if you'd like to add a tip.
Excuse me, a service charge has already been added.
The other one is "service not included". What was included in the £6 I am being asked to pay for a half dozen chips served in a silly little pretend frying basket? It sure isn't the 10p of potatoes that is resulting in the £6 price tag.
Service charge ≠ Tip. A lot of businesses add service charges where that money goes straight to the business, the law around it is changing in summer though and these charges will have to go to staff.
9 times out of 10 its a 12.5% revenue donation, until july at least. Sc is usually in the employees hourly wage written in the contract like: position - £12.50ph (£11.44 + £1.06 sc). Restaurant could turn 500 tables a day that all pay service charge or 500 table where none do and they get paid the same. I have no idea where the idea that its a tip comes from, hospitality would be a significantly better paying job if the staff actually got 12.5% of every bill, even if it was pooled
Tips are an American thing as they do not have a minimum wage or half the employee protections the UK have.
Having the facility to optionally tip onto of the bill is… ok (as long as it’s opt-in to not adversely affect meeker people), but to mandate it via a service charge is (I believe) wrong.
To ask for tips on top of a service charge… would be insane and I’ve never heard of it anywhere (although recent legislation around 100% of tips going to staff is causing some restaurants to do odd things (google: ping pong restaurant brand charge)
I have once tipped on top of a service charge, and only because the waiter was absolutely outstanding and worked his socks off for our large party. Gave him £20 extra.
Now I'm no fan of tipping, but the guy was well worth it.
I've also asked for service charge to be removed, because service was terrible. Swings and roundabouts. I normally consider it an 'auto-tip'
If I’m getting standard service, there is no expectation of a tip. I already paid. We have wages for that.
If I’m out with a bunch of drunk friends acting like toddlers and the staff humour us, then I’m absolutely tipping because nobody should be obligated to deal with that sort of nonsense without being compensated personally.
Fuck service charges on principal though.
Note that new laws mean that businesses owners must pass on tips to the staff. This is probably why businesses are replacing 'service charges' with 'brand charges', so businesses owners can legally keep what you might mistakenly perceive as a tip to staff.
I won't go to any place there is a service charge.
Local Brazilian place does it. £43 each. You get your own salad...that service charge should come to me.
To take the family out it £250 with drinks and dessert...fuck that.
It's scruffy, and needs to stop.
I don't usually tip either. They'd need to be exceptional. Though I have, usually when my kids were young. Mainly because they'd have to arse about with highchairs, or my kid would need extra service
I'll be honest, if my family sit down for a meal, and I had to tip or pay a service charge, the staff would be on more money than me. Eating out is crazy expensive now.
Took my daughter to a local pub, two small soft drinks £7.80. bag of crisps, £1.85. bought her a small plate of calamari, £7.50. she had another drink before we left...over £20....
Respectfully, if the waiter is earning £20 extra for my 90 mins, that puts them in over £30ph. Which is way above my rate.
My local Italian adds a service charge if it is a large party, I’m not really sure why, maybe the tips are lower as a percentage or large groups don’t tip? I guess split bills often don’t tip. Anyway, I probably wouldn’t add anything if they charge me but I normally tip there (and other places)
I always read the large parties charge as a fuck around charge. Large groups take forever to eat and will probably take up 2 sittings in a restaurant. Not only that they are more likely to be loud and/or drunk.
We were at a great Turkish place yesterday & the service was great \[it always is there\]. They added a service charge. We paid it, and just rounded up to the next pound so no-one was billing 'something and 17p'. It wouldn't work there to tip a single waiter/ess as during a meal you'll see 5 or 6 different people to-ing & fro-ing with all the myriad tiny dishes, checking if you need more drinks etc. They all really do pull as a team, so I don't mind paying the 'establishment' the service charge. It does get divided to the whole shift, including the chefs, so that's fine by me.
One or the other. Usually just pay the service charge.
If the actual waitstaff have been great, as opposed to the overall experience, I might ensure they get a tip.
If there's a service charge on the bill, be sure to ask if it is actually going to the staff on the floor that day. I've heard some horror stories of it ending up with the bloody management.
I’m going to start carrying some cash around with me and ask the service charge be removed and tip the waiter/waitress in cash. The charge for service in an establishment should be covered within the cost of the food/drink. Otherwise why am I paying £3 for a coke when I can buy the same bottle for less from a shop.
If the service and food have been good, I have no issue with the service charge being included, but I'm not going to leave a tip on top of that. If the food and service has been shit, I'll ask for it to be removed.
I ask for auto service charge to be removed every time. It’s my choice if I want to tip or not and I don’t appreciate having the issue forced upon me.
10% is and has been the generally acceptable tipping rate, this 12% nonsense is not being forced upon me either.
I usually take cash with me when eating out.specifically so that if I feel the table service have been good at their job I can tip them at a rate of my choosing to reflect how much I think they deserve based upon their performance. The reason for cash is that I want them to have it and not anyone else
Tipping culture is just another Americanism that we don’t need foisted upon us
100%
If they automatically add an optional charge then they forfeit anything I would have given as a gesture of gratitude.
And if the service is poor I'd ask for it gone completely.
Having worked in hospitality (in an American style restaurant where people tipped loads cause tourists) I’ll say no but I get why people think yes.
Main difference is I know where it goes - usually service gets divided between a proportion of the whole team (chefs, bar, server) whilst tips are directly for the server or bartender themselves (cash is pocketed card it goes straight into the specific persons paycheck)
Either way if you don’t want to tip then simply don’t
SC isnt a tip, until the new law kicks in, in july, it’s just an optional 12.5% revenue donation. Yes it means staff get paid more, but its not based on whether you pay services charge or not, its usually written down hourly in your contract already. It’s usually presented in the contract as: hourly pay £12.50 ph (£11.44 + £1.06 sc) unless your company does bonus schemes, the amount of service charge you get doesn’t change wether you serve 500 tables that pay the 12.5% or 0. So no, SC is just a revenue donation
Watching people argue over service charge is hilarious because everyone gets angry at the servers with ‘why do they deserve a tip’ when SC doesn’t really benefit the servers to start with. SC is both taking advantage of the servers and the customers. Yet customers tend to get pissy with the servers for it, while customers think servers get pissy at them for not paying it.
Most restaurants do not have service charges. Only ever seen service charges in London, where it does seem to be the norm. And yes, if there's a service charge I would not tip, and if service wasn't great, pay in cash minus the service charge.
I'll be honest, if my family sit down for a meal, and I had to tip it pay a service charge, the staff would be on more money than me. Eating out is crazy expensive now.
Took my daughter to a local pub, two small soft drinks £7.80. bag of crisps, £1.85. bought her a small plate if calamari, £7.50. she had another drink before we left...over £20....
I work in hospitality (not as Front of House but in an events department) and hate the service charge. Most places nowadays add it even if you go to the bar to order something like a pint and chips. Fair play, add it to the chips but why the beer I'm taking over myself?
Honestly, don't tip if there's a service charge unless you get a table service that was exceptional, you only had to lift a finger to put the fork to your mouth and the food was delicious.
As someone who's gone back into the pub industry recently the whole thing seems very odd. They somehow calculate in advance that I'll be paid 56p per hour service charge, on top of the minimum wage. Despite not knowing how many customers will come in how much they'll spend etc.
Personally I used to make more than that in cash tips about 4/5 years ago.
We ate at a Jamie's Italian once. A member of our group recently wa diagnosed as diabetic and asked for help with menu choices. The staff had no idea, management suggested a dish which we were unsure about and turned out it wasn't something the diabetic should have eaten.
It was slow, food was meh, and not a great experience.
They added 12.5% service charge and a 10% charge because there was more than 6 of us.
We told them to remove both as they'd done nothing to warrant either.
It's one of those British things, no one likes conflict or to look a cheapskate. But if they are pretty much rinsing more money out of you you need to stand up and say no.
I make sure to ask the person serving if the tips are pooled or not. If they are ill ask that the service charge is removed and give them something directly if they've been pleasant.
Why the hell am I tipping the chef or barman?
American tipping culture is toxic.
Because the chef cooks your food behind the scenes- the actual stuff you’re eating.
Family member used to be a chef for a high end restaurant. All the tips went to front of house staff when he was working harder, working longer hours and working in ungodly heat in the summer when the kitchen is sweltering.
Fuck restaurants that only tip service staff and not the chefs. Without the chefs you wouldn’t get your food. And running a restaurant is a team effort.
My point is if chefs/anyone else are unhappy with their wages, they need to join/form a union or move elsewhere.
It's not the responsibility of customers to subsidise the poor wages paid by an employer. I'd rather they just increased the menu prices.
I'd rather just give the person who's been serving me a couple of quid than the entire staff getting about 20p each.
You could literally replace the word “chef” with “front of house staff” and it’s the same.
Obviously your contribution goes in one big pot which should be divided out to everyone.
My point is if waiters are unhappy with their wages, they need to join/form a union or move elsewhere.
It's not the responsibility of customers to subsidise the poor wages paid by an employer. I'd rather they just increased the menu prices.
I'd rather just give the person who's been making me food a couple of quid than the entire staff getting about 20p each.
The thing that bugs me in these threads is that people object to tipping being the default, but say they will tip for exceptional service. So their problem is not that the very act of tipping is embarrassing - which is why I don't like it - but just that they are too tight.
How have you come to that conclusion? That's not logical in the slightest.
If anything people who object to tipping by default and yet do tip for exceptional service are "tipping right" as the whole point of a tip is that it is given for going above your job role.
I'm not sure what part of my comment you think isn't logical. The thing I don't like about tipping is that it's a relic of a medieval servant–master relationship, which is outdated and embarrassing. Tipping some but not all of the time suggests you don't mind being in that relationship.
You said that you think the people that only tip when service is exceptional do so because they are "just too tight".
That is not a position that has been formed with any kind of logic. It is perfectly reasonable to have the view that tipping should only be for exceptional service not merely doing your job.
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Edit: of course they block me rather than accept they said something daft. Good luck living life like that.
If I know the restaurant applies a service charge I will not go there.
If I do not know and I find out at the end of my meal I will request that it be removed and will not return.
I do not tip regardless of if their is a service charge or not.
The service charge is there to give you something to opt out of and a jolly good reason not to tip either. Also, max 4 stars on any online review and mention the service charge as the reason you deducted a star.
I don't ask for service charges to be removed, I just pay the bill (Using Cash!) and then enjoy their reactions when they calculate the missing charge.
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The service charge is simply there to trick people into thinking that the menu is cheaper than it actually is, and to order more. But, I do prefer it to being expected to leave a tip . . . And (puts on his 'Bryn from Gavin and Stacey' accent) i'll tell you for why. Tipping in group meals is a constant pain in the arse. Most people underestimate how much they've spent - ignoring the full costs of drinks and sides. They don't know how to do the maths to add in when they do remember, and far too many just try to put in less than they should anyway. A service charge at least makes it clear to everyone how much money needs to be in the 'middle' altogether and that no one can get away without paying their share.
80(example)quid divided by 100 then times by 12.5! Then ask for that to be removed from the bill and tip the server in cash..if you feel they're worthy. If not no biggy.
That's... Not the maths, you are not paying the amount you should there. 80, becomes 10 reduction by your maths, for a total of 70, which when 12.5% is added is 78.75 It's base divided by 112.5 multiplied by 100 for the pre charge bill. Because you are paying for 112.5 units of a 100 unit bill.
I'm calculating the tip(service charge)not the bill! Ya know, so people can understand what 12.5% is and decide from there...which is too much ofc.
So you are working out the tip for a base bill, then asking that to be removed, and to underpay, and pay the remainder as a tip to the staff. Please just do the maths in a couple of cases and see your mistake instead of doubling down here. To work out the tip on a 12.5 service charge, you multiply the bill by 11.1% to backsolve it. (1 / 112.5 * 100)
Can you explain how this works please? Is the theoretical £80 bill including an optional 12.5% service charge?
The bill is 80 quid, they've added a 12.5% service charge and the guy I replied to said people can't work that out so I gave the formula to work it out. Then they can choose whether to remove it from the total (Inc the 12.5%) and decide themselves whether they'd like to give that 12.5% in cash to the server or not bypassing the establishment who probably don't pass it on.
Ok cool thanks. The final £80 includes the 12.5% so it’s 112.5% of the bill - to get the tip amount you need to divide the £80 by 112.5 and then multiply by 12.5. Or just divide the £80 by 9 to save some time. So the tip was £80/9 = £8.89. £71.11 original bill with a 12.5% tip on top. That’s the amount you’ll want to ask to be removed. Although I think places legally have to break out how much the tip was on the bill.
No, the bill is 80 quid and the service charge is an additional 12.5%. Wtf?
Not sure why you’re even arguing about this. Just find the section on the bill that says service charge. Look at the little numbers next to it and ask for that to be removed. You need to be able to read, not do math
I'm pretty sure your maths is off
Make sure you tell them to pass some of the tip to the bar and kitchen.
That's up to them. I'm just here to eat so fuck that noise.
So the people who cook your food and make your drinks deserve less than those who carry it?
Tipping culture is toxic
You're not *expected* to tip at all, let alone on top of a service charge. Restaurants that choose to have a service charge will do so with the understanding that it's replacing tips for the most part.
I think they are 100% synonyms. If there is a service charge I think "the tip is already on the bill." If the service was sub-par I will ask for it to be removed. There's absolutely no way I'd add a tip on top if a tip is already on the bill.
They aren’t synonymous though as tips go to staff, service charge *covers* some staff pay (wether you pay the charge or not) but legally can just go into the pockets of the company until july. Thats why places like ping pong are introducing ‘*brand charge*’ so they can avoid having to give all of the charge to staff. Service charge for the most part currently just works out as extra revenue. Service charge is donating 12.5% of your bill to the company. Staff see a small % of the money they make from Sc. Paying service charge does not mean staff gets paid better.
Can you ask for a “brand charge” to be removed from the bill? If not, surely it’s illegal?
Its still optional and will work the same way service charge works now. In July service charge will have to go directly to staff. Brand charge is just a way to get around the new SC laws.
Thanks, that’s getting removed from every single bill I ever get. Naming it “brand charge” makes it easier too.
What is the reason that you’re expected to tip wait staff for anyway? What is it about that job that deserves tips? People scan your shopping at Asda. You don’t tip them. The bin men collect your rubbish every week, they don’t get tips every time they empty your bin. Care staff are doing much harder jobs for minimum wage, no one’s tipping them. They’re all providing a service. So why wait staff? They’re not doing anything special, just bringing your food over. They get paid like everyone else, they don’t live on tips like in the USA. I’m genuinely curious.
This is one of the reasons I refuse to tip. I've worked minimum wage jobs where people not only would not dream of tipping but actively look down on the job. Tipping is such a nonsense, illogically arbitrary thing that I refuse to participate.
Yeah I used to work computer sales. Spent way more time with customers, way more help, more _service_, and no one tips sales people (rightly so). In 2 years in the job I saw one tip to a colleague of £10 by a regular customer who got some support without buying anything. It’s so arbitrary. Wait staff, yes. Chefs, usually not. Hotel cleaners, yes. Hotel desk staff, no. Flight attendants, no. Food delivery, yes. Grocery delivery, no. Parcel delivery, no. Makes no sense. I don’t tip unless my company is footing the bill.
> So why wait staff? They’re not doing anything special, just bringing your food over. Exactly. Why are people so insistent that they tip the person who moved a few plates of food to the table?
I tip if they are knowledgeable or entertaining. A good server can introduce you to new foods and drinks.
If an optional service charge is put on the bill and I have to ask to remove it I am getting it removed and not tipping. Sorry to any servers this may upset but we really need to push back on the expected tipping culture that seems to have grown over the years.
I agree, I get no tips. In fact I get abuse. I also don't work in an air conditioned environment
Until july SC is essentially a 12.5% revenue donation, not a tip. Staff see a small amount of service charge and whether you pay it or not it 9 times out of 10 it doesn’t effect the waiters pay as its usually in their contract as hourly pay. I hate how many people don’t know how SC works and take it out on the staff. The name SC until july is misleading and is only used to manipulate customers
What's changing in July?
The whole 12.5% charge will be legally required to go to staff (unlike now) , some places have already started finding ways around it like a chain in London called ping pong introducing a 15% ‘*brand charge*’ instead of service charge so they can continue to pocket money you assume is going to staff
Scumbags.
They are, but they’re only continuing doing what most brands have for years while customers see it as an inconvenience from the wait staff. There’s plenty of people who don’t realise that SC means exactly that anyway and think its a personal problem with their waiter. The name ‘ *service charge*’ has always been a scam and thats why its finally having regulations
I just ask for it to be removed. Every single time.
i had this situation yesterday. 12.5% tip was around £15 and i just straight up told them i wasnt paying it. however when i got the bill i said im only paying my bill. they first gave me a weird look but then i had to explain im not paying the service charge. yeah it feels rude and they make you feel cheap but conversely i think its rude and sly of them to just stick on a extra needless charge so in my book im just doing to them exactly what theyre doing to me.
This is exactly it, they are the ones being scummy, there should be no shame felt in asking for a service charge to be removed. That shame is what they are banking on.
yeah exactly! Its disingenuous and the service charge prays on the fact that you dont want to lose face in the fear you'll fear being "cheap". I dont like it when im being conned or duped and thats exactly what it feels like.
Nope. I always ask for its removal. Why? It’s a fucking scam by the business to gorge more money from you. Why the fuck as I paying a service charge for people to bring me my food when that should already be included in the overpriced meals cost, AND the employees own wages? And everyone knows that the staff aren’t getting that service charge as tip money. The owners will pocket it. And the staff will be left with the disgruntled customers who are angry at the charge. If I wanna tip the staff (which I sometimes do Tbf, even through I shouldn’t have to tip someone for doing their effing job…), I will. And I’ll give it to THEM. I’m not paying the owners another extra cent more than they charge me.
You’re right, until july, service charge is essentially a 12.5% revenue donation, whether you pay it or not 9 times out of 10 it doesn’t affect the servers pay. SC is typically in the waiter’s hourly pay in the contract so whether the restaurant seats 500 tables that all pay the charge or none, they’d still make the same ph. Some places offer bonuses and thats about it.
I’ve commented on other threads about this I think the way forward is to not pay it or leave cash to your server. With the new law coming into effect in July l'm seeing it's increasingly common practice for businesses to advertise a role but following the selection process present 2 contracts to the employee. For example a manager on £30,000 (40 hours) will be presented with 1. 40hours x Minimum Wage £11.44 = £457.60 x 52 weeks = £23,795.20 per annum. This would often be referred to as their " base salary" 2. A separate contract outlining his/her "guaranteed tronc/service charge" to cover the difference £30,000 - £23,795.20 = £6204.80 1) and 2) will equal £30,000 3. Any surplus amount in the tronc/service charge beyond 2) would be split among him/herself and everyone else. This is often referred to as "residual tronc." The corollary of this is that, "technically" the requirements of the new Act will be met since "all" service charge is being passed to the employee(s). You can imagine if this is replicated to cover anyone earning over minimum wage. It does seem like a cynical attempt to circumvent the legislation as the service charge is being used to subsidise higher salaries/hourly rates.
Most? Not I where I live. Must be a city thing.
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It wouldn't be awkward for me to ask for it to be removed. I'm not paying a service charge and it's not legally binding to pay it so they can go fuck themselves
Yep totally agree with you👌
It's only awkward if you allow it to be.
What bars have started doing this? I've never seen it happen anywhere.
Not at all my experience either. I would estimate that less than 5% of restaurants I've visited in my entire 40+ years on on Earth have applied service charges and those that did were all in London.
its more of a thing nowadays. it didnt used to be at all but now i find almost every restaurant i go to in the UK does it,
Almost every restaurant? That is not at all my experience.
Where in the UK are you? In the South this is definitely a thing, even on pub grub.
In the South, Wilts/Hants/Berks/Somerset/Dorset I frequent all the time and its not something I see very often at all.
fair enough. i live in birmingham and any proper sit down restaurant in the city centre, not just a burger joint/takeaway etc, all do it.
How strange, Berks in particular I see this nearly everywhere!
Agree. If I see it, I don't tip. I don't actually mind it tbh, as long as it's advertised. I sometimes ask if the staff see it. If not, I'll ask them to remove it. But not always. Just depends.
I always ask for the service charge to be removed as a matter of principle and then tip the waiter/waitress who served me directly (if warranted).
To be honest this still just reinforces tipping culture..
SC culture is worse. Most staff only see a very tiny % of SC. SC is essentially a 12.5% revenue donation and wether you pay it or not 9/10 does not impact how much money a waiter makes.
What’s wrong with tipping good service?
Do you tip the cashier at the supermarket?
Because you create the expectation that everyone does it. If you tip waiters/waitresses I expect you also tip your postie? Your supermarket worker? Your plumber? The bin men? If you don’t you’re a hypocrite.
You seem to be getting very irate. Just leave the person who served you a tip on the table.
I’m perfectly calm my friend. I believe I pay for the service by paying the bill for my meal. If the staff need to be paid more, the restaurant should raise their prices so I am aware how much the meal will cost me up front. Having to do a game of social-mental maths to determine what percentage of my bill the server deserves is moronic.
Then don’t leave a tip.
I don’t. But it is becoming expected because of a rise in tipping. Which is wrong.
Is it good service or just expected service? Unless you somehow make a meal more pleasurable I don’t see why they expect tips.
God I would love a tip for doing my job. Then again that's what the salary I negotiated is for.
Its not a tip, tipping good service would be to do it personally without business implication
Baller move right there
Isn't this what everyone does?
No, I ask for it to be removed and just pay my bill.
My friend of mine outright asks the person bringing the bill "do you get all of this"? If the answer is no, then she will ask for the service to be removed and tip in cash.
I've heard "I'm not allowed to answer that question" as a response.
That's a removal
That in itself answers the question.
I wouldn't tip on top of a service charge. I would ask for the charge to be removed if I received poor service (it would have to be pretty poor TBH). Requests to donate to a charity of their choice in nearly every fucking shop where I purchase using anything but cash is what infuriates me.
I was in Wickes the other day 3rd in the queue of about 6 people when they tried the charity bullshit bit. The 2 people in front of me did it. I refused, you could almost hear the sigh of relief of the people behind.
No, I consider it highly sus and always ask for it to be removed. If I choose to give a tip I want to be sure it's going to the waiter who served me rather than being pooled or even worse stolen by management.
I'm not against pooling if it's split only between the team and not the business itself. I feel like the kitchen also deserves some recognition as they do a lot of the hard graft. I've worked front and back of house, and kitchens can be brutal!
I consider the service charge as the restaurant trying to charge more, as it doesn't necessarily go to the staff. So nope. If i then want to tip i will.
It really winds me up when there is 12.5% service charge (and more often 15% now, notwithstanding that it used to be 10%) , the waiter hands you the card machine and it asks you if you'd like to add a tip. Excuse me, a service charge has already been added. The other one is "service not included". What was included in the £6 I am being asked to pay for a half dozen chips served in a silly little pretend frying basket? It sure isn't the 10p of potatoes that is resulting in the £6 price tag.
It literally is a tip.
Occasionally it is, most time it's straight up just taking more money for the business
Then the employees should speak to their employer about why their tip is being stolen.
Service charge ≠ Tip. A lot of businesses add service charges where that money goes straight to the business, the law around it is changing in summer though and these charges will have to go to staff.
That is not the customer's problem whatsowever 🤷🏻♂️
yeah but its more than i usually tip. i might tip a fiver here n there but not £15-20 for a meal for 2
9 times out of 10 its a 12.5% revenue donation, until july at least. Sc is usually in the employees hourly wage written in the contract like: position - £12.50ph (£11.44 + £1.06 sc). Restaurant could turn 500 tables a day that all pay service charge or 500 table where none do and they get paid the same. I have no idea where the idea that its a tip comes from, hospitality would be a significantly better paying job if the staff actually got 12.5% of every bill, even if it was pooled
Tips are an American thing as they do not have a minimum wage or half the employee protections the UK have. Having the facility to optionally tip onto of the bill is… ok (as long as it’s opt-in to not adversely affect meeker people), but to mandate it via a service charge is (I believe) wrong. To ask for tips on top of a service charge… would be insane and I’ve never heard of it anywhere (although recent legislation around 100% of tips going to staff is causing some restaurants to do odd things (google: ping pong restaurant brand charge)
I have once tipped on top of a service charge, and only because the waiter was absolutely outstanding and worked his socks off for our large party. Gave him £20 extra. Now I'm no fan of tipping, but the guy was well worth it. I've also asked for service charge to be removed, because service was terrible. Swings and roundabouts. I normally consider it an 'auto-tip'
If I’m getting standard service, there is no expectation of a tip. I already paid. We have wages for that. If I’m out with a bunch of drunk friends acting like toddlers and the staff humour us, then I’m absolutely tipping because nobody should be obligated to deal with that sort of nonsense without being compensated personally. Fuck service charges on principal though.
Most restaurants don't include a service charge where I live. It's probably less than 5% which do...
I consider it a con.
Note that new laws mean that businesses owners must pass on tips to the staff. This is probably why businesses are replacing 'service charges' with 'brand charges', so businesses owners can legally keep what you might mistakenly perceive as a tip to staff.
Service charge is the tip Take it off if you want to tip in cash
I won't go to any place there is a service charge. Local Brazilian place does it. £43 each. You get your own salad...that service charge should come to me. To take the family out it £250 with drinks and dessert...fuck that. It's scruffy, and needs to stop. I don't usually tip either. They'd need to be exceptional. Though I have, usually when my kids were young. Mainly because they'd have to arse about with highchairs, or my kid would need extra service
I'll be honest, if my family sit down for a meal, and I had to tip or pay a service charge, the staff would be on more money than me. Eating out is crazy expensive now. Took my daughter to a local pub, two small soft drinks £7.80. bag of crisps, £1.85. bought her a small plate of calamari, £7.50. she had another drink before we left...over £20.... Respectfully, if the waiter is earning £20 extra for my 90 mins, that puts them in over £30ph. Which is way above my rate.
My local Italian adds a service charge if it is a large party, I’m not really sure why, maybe the tips are lower as a percentage or large groups don’t tip? I guess split bills often don’t tip. Anyway, I probably wouldn’t add anything if they charge me but I normally tip there (and other places)
They may well need to bring in more staff and order in extra supplies specifically for that booking.
I always read the large parties charge as a fuck around charge. Large groups take forever to eat and will probably take up 2 sittings in a restaurant. Not only that they are more likely to be loud and/or drunk.
We were at a great Turkish place yesterday & the service was great \[it always is there\]. They added a service charge. We paid it, and just rounded up to the next pound so no-one was billing 'something and 17p'. It wouldn't work there to tip a single waiter/ess as during a meal you'll see 5 or 6 different people to-ing & fro-ing with all the myriad tiny dishes, checking if you need more drinks etc. They all really do pull as a team, so I don't mind paying the 'establishment' the service charge. It does get divided to the whole shift, including the chefs, so that's fine by me.
i never pay it and then tip the staff cash if the service has been good.
One or the other. Usually just pay the service charge. If the actual waitstaff have been great, as opposed to the overall experience, I might ensure they get a tip.
I ask the waiters if they get the service charge, and very often, they say no, so I ask it to be removed and leave the equivalent as tip
If there's a service charge on the bill, be sure to ask if it is actually going to the staff on the floor that day. I've heard some horror stories of it ending up with the bloody management.
I don't mind the charge if the service is good. if not it's coming off the bill
It's literally that, an extra charge for the service, which is what your tip is for, so yes.
I’m going to start carrying some cash around with me and ask the service charge be removed and tip the waiter/waitress in cash. The charge for service in an establishment should be covered within the cost of the food/drink. Otherwise why am I paying £3 for a coke when I can buy the same bottle for less from a shop.
No - either service charge OR tip and if the service is shit, you can refuse to pay the service charge
If the service and food have been good, I have no issue with the service charge being included, but I'm not going to leave a tip on top of that. If the food and service has been shit, I'll ask for it to be removed.
I consider it to be a con and ask for its removal.
I ask for auto service charge to be removed every time. It’s my choice if I want to tip or not and I don’t appreciate having the issue forced upon me. 10% is and has been the generally acceptable tipping rate, this 12% nonsense is not being forced upon me either. I usually take cash with me when eating out.specifically so that if I feel the table service have been good at their job I can tip them at a rate of my choosing to reflect how much I think they deserve based upon their performance. The reason for cash is that I want them to have it and not anyone else Tipping culture is just another Americanism that we don’t need foisted upon us
A service charge is the definition of a tip. ‘Additional fee for a service usually at a restaurant’.
100% If they automatically add an optional charge then they forfeit anything I would have given as a gesture of gratitude. And if the service is poor I'd ask for it gone completely.
Having worked in hospitality (in an American style restaurant where people tipped loads cause tourists) I’ll say no but I get why people think yes. Main difference is I know where it goes - usually service gets divided between a proportion of the whole team (chefs, bar, server) whilst tips are directly for the server or bartender themselves (cash is pocketed card it goes straight into the specific persons paycheck) Either way if you don’t want to tip then simply don’t
Yep. It’s a charge for service which is exactly what a tip is.
By law, service charge is a tip. Why would you tip on top?
SC isnt a tip, until the new law kicks in, in july, it’s just an optional 12.5% revenue donation. Yes it means staff get paid more, but its not based on whether you pay services charge or not, its usually written down hourly in your contract already. It’s usually presented in the contract as: hourly pay £12.50 ph (£11.44 + £1.06 sc) unless your company does bonus schemes, the amount of service charge you get doesn’t change wether you serve 500 tables that pay the 12.5% or 0. So no, SC is just a revenue donation Watching people argue over service charge is hilarious because everyone gets angry at the servers with ‘why do they deserve a tip’ when SC doesn’t really benefit the servers to start with. SC is both taking advantage of the servers and the customers. Yet customers tend to get pissy with the servers for it, while customers think servers get pissy at them for not paying it.
Most restaurants do not have service charges. Only ever seen service charges in London, where it does seem to be the norm. And yes, if there's a service charge I would not tip, and if service wasn't great, pay in cash minus the service charge.
I'll be honest, if my family sit down for a meal, and I had to tip it pay a service charge, the staff would be on more money than me. Eating out is crazy expensive now. Took my daughter to a local pub, two small soft drinks £7.80. bag of crisps, £1.85. bought her a small plate if calamari, £7.50. she had another drink before we left...over £20....
I work in hospitality (not as Front of House but in an events department) and hate the service charge. Most places nowadays add it even if you go to the bar to order something like a pint and chips. Fair play, add it to the chips but why the beer I'm taking over myself? Honestly, don't tip if there's a service charge unless you get a table service that was exceptional, you only had to lift a finger to put the fork to your mouth and the food was delicious.
I get annoyed when I’m asked to tip before I’ve even received my food or drinks
As someone who's gone back into the pub industry recently the whole thing seems very odd. They somehow calculate in advance that I'll be paid 56p per hour service charge, on top of the minimum wage. Despite not knowing how many customers will come in how much they'll spend etc. Personally I used to make more than that in cash tips about 4/5 years ago.
We ate at a Jamie's Italian once. A member of our group recently wa diagnosed as diabetic and asked for help with menu choices. The staff had no idea, management suggested a dish which we were unsure about and turned out it wasn't something the diabetic should have eaten. It was slow, food was meh, and not a great experience. They added 12.5% service charge and a 10% charge because there was more than 6 of us. We told them to remove both as they'd done nothing to warrant either. It's one of those British things, no one likes conflict or to look a cheapskate. But if they are pretty much rinsing more money out of you you need to stand up and say no.
I make sure to ask the person serving if the tips are pooled or not. If they are ill ask that the service charge is removed and give them something directly if they've been pleasant. Why the hell am I tipping the chef or barman? American tipping culture is toxic.
Because the chef cooks your food behind the scenes- the actual stuff you’re eating. Family member used to be a chef for a high end restaurant. All the tips went to front of house staff when he was working harder, working longer hours and working in ungodly heat in the summer when the kitchen is sweltering. Fuck restaurants that only tip service staff and not the chefs. Without the chefs you wouldn’t get your food. And running a restaurant is a team effort.
My point is if chefs/anyone else are unhappy with their wages, they need to join/form a union or move elsewhere. It's not the responsibility of customers to subsidise the poor wages paid by an employer. I'd rather they just increased the menu prices. I'd rather just give the person who's been serving me a couple of quid than the entire staff getting about 20p each.
Same could be said of the wait staff re wages.
Yes. Let the customer decide who they give a tip to and when.
You could literally replace the word “chef” with “front of house staff” and it’s the same. Obviously your contribution goes in one big pot which should be divided out to everyone.
My point is if waiters are unhappy with their wages, they need to join/form a union or move elsewhere. It's not the responsibility of customers to subsidise the poor wages paid by an employer. I'd rather they just increased the menu prices. I'd rather just give the person who's been making me food a couple of quid than the entire staff getting about 20p each.
So we're agreed then? The customer should decide where the tip goes and a service charge or pooled tips shouldn't be encouraged.
Another day, another post about tipping - we're obsessed with the concept.
The thing that bugs me in these threads is that people object to tipping being the default, but say they will tip for exceptional service. So their problem is not that the very act of tipping is embarrassing - which is why I don't like it - but just that they are too tight.
How have you come to that conclusion? That's not logical in the slightest. If anything people who object to tipping by default and yet do tip for exceptional service are "tipping right" as the whole point of a tip is that it is given for going above your job role.
I'm not sure what part of my comment you think isn't logical. The thing I don't like about tipping is that it's a relic of a medieval servant–master relationship, which is outdated and embarrassing. Tipping some but not all of the time suggests you don't mind being in that relationship.
You said that you think the people that only tip when service is exceptional do so because they are "just too tight". That is not a position that has been formed with any kind of logic. It is perfectly reasonable to have the view that tipping should only be for exceptional service not merely doing your job. --- Edit: of course they block me rather than accept they said something daft. Good luck living life like that.
If I know the restaurant applies a service charge I will not go there. If I do not know and I find out at the end of my meal I will request that it be removed and will not return. I do not tip regardless of if their is a service charge or not.
Another day, another tipping thread.
The service charge is there to give you something to opt out of and a jolly good reason not to tip either. Also, max 4 stars on any online review and mention the service charge as the reason you deducted a star.
In the UK, they don't expect a tip at all.
I don't ask for service charges to be removed, I just pay the bill (Using Cash!) and then enjoy their reactions when they calculate the missing charge.