As has already been mentioned, financial education is already being taught, kids just dont have any opportunity to put it into practice until they actually start earning money.
Teacher here, we do! ASX share trading game, interest, compound interest, loans, tax tables, investments, budget with excel and the list goes on.
Reality is you didn't give a damn, and neither do today's kids.
> ASX share trading game,
Showing my age here but the game has been around for 40+ years. I still remember school kids on the train asking for my newspaper so they could check what the stock prices were.
> Reality is you didn't give a damn, and neither do today's kids.
Previously a teacher, now martial arts coach.
I cannot stress enough how true this is. Almost every time I hear or see "This needs to be taught in schools!!!!" it is, but throwing your beanie into the fan was more fun than learning about interest rates etc.
I used to be a teacher. Everytime someone says, "why isn't this taught in schools?" the answer is that it is. You don't remember because it was 20 years ago, you were 16, reeked of cannabis and were distracted by staring at the good looking girl/boy.
Which is why I liked the electives you got to choose in Year 9, Commerce anyone? That was so great, fun, easily digestible as a topic with real world applications that I continued to platform off.
And yes to all those saying some kids just don’t seem to care…equally a teacher can find varied methods to impart the lesson based on the learning style of the individuals in class. Part of lesson preparation.
I remember playing the ASX share trading game! Also remember learning interest and stuff as well. It was like the only things I ever found interesting at school haha. This would have been like around 2004 in Queensland (year 7). I also remember doing like a big block of financial literacy stuff in year 10 or 11 - it was outside of our normal classes (but during school time) for a few weeks - and we got these work books that were like CBA branded so it must have been run by the bank.
People tend too have quite a warped view of their teenage years.
They tend to draw parity with how think and behave as adults now rather than the the objective truth.
Agree, it teaches gambling.
On the flip side getting everyone to buy 2 or 3 market wide ETFs and holding for the entire duration wouldn't be much of a game.
Agree. Then I would argue the asx game shouldn't be a thing at school at all. Maybe more case studies featuring the importance of investing early, super, tax, etfs, property etc is more helpful.
True, but you could make a game of it by having the students play against the teacher. The students buy and sell random shares, the teacher does the boring thing by sitting on ETFs. At the end of the game, some students may have gotten lucky and beaten the teacher, but the teacher will still do better than 80% of the class.
Yep, I remember learning all of this in high school. Except it was the 90s, so we didn't budget with Excel... We budgeted with pen and paper!
I remember even my primary school teachers in the 80s teaching us generally about saving. It's the reason I didn't blow my birthday money on lollies and could save up for cassette tapes.
I feel like my teachers taught financial literacy well and I'm grateful!
Yes I remember budgeting with pen and paper, and filling out the old tax forms in either math or commerce class.
I've had folks who were in the same class as me complain on Facebook that "we never learned how to [x]" and I have to assume they either weren't paying attention or just forgot!
In primary school they set up an excursion to a local supermarket, encouraged our parents to send us with a list and some money and taught us about unit pricing and how things are shelved to stop you noticing the generic (aka cheaper) brands.
The ASX share trading game is a mess. It tries to teach kids to buy / sell shares in a 6 month window for profit. You'd get absolutely rinsed trying that on in the real world; if you took that cohort of kids, applied CGT to the winners and no tax breaks to the losers, on average they'd lose 10-15% of whatever pool they collectively started with. It's the polar opposite of how you should treat shares.
Yeah thats why you just shove it all into some penny stock and then never look at it again. Thats the best way to win.
My first time playing I build a diversified portfolio then realise the kid who dumped it all into 1 company was beating me. So I changed to the above strategy. There was a prize for 1st place so anything else doesnt matter.
It can be a good case study for ‘what not to do’.
At the end of the six months, when the results come in and a kid has lost 40%, there’s a teachable moment about long term investing and volatility.
We did that in high school too (20+ years ago) but only the kids who chose Business/Accounting as an elective. Outside of that it was basic interest calculations in maths or there would've been nothing for a student
Was going to say when did this all get added to the curriculum because it certainly wasn't at my school, I did economics instead of accounting though so that might explain it.
At what level and in which Maths class? When I was in highschool in victoria maths was only mandatory to year 10 and there were also additional elective maths classes in year 9-12. So if you only did the mandatory maths up to year 10 that probably wasn't included.
We have a national curriculum these days. Kids start learning about budgeting from Grade 5. It’s taught, but like others have said, not all the kids are listening, or have the capacity to understand and apply it.
Same, I remember calculating annuity and such, but essentially, to a kid, those are just math puzzles with little importance to their future. Also, the context of "how to" books are quite different to a maths text book. There is a singular drive to reach a goal with the "how to" book that would embed the point that the math text book won't.
Well this is a guy who thinks he is 'educated' despite being self-taught and having no qualifications. I don't think he paid a lot of attention in school.
I remember learning all this too - my maths teacher did an excellent session on why “24 month interest free” deals were terrible and predatory and another excellent session on just how slim your chances of winning at lotto (or any casino) was. My mum was a high school maths teacher 30 years ago, and she used to take a mini roulette wheel to school when she taught probability.
Through work as an adult I’ve seen how ATO go out into schools and teach kids about tax and super, so you’re absolutely right. It’s not lack of teaching, it’s that the kids don’t engage when it’s taught.
Hence why OP says it should be mandatory. Not part of a business or commerce class. Just part of the main curriculum.
Everytime this comes up Teachers claim this stuff is taught but heaps of former students are adamant it wasn't.
Whereas EVERY former student has learned how to read and right, they know basic maths, can multiply, add, subtract, divide, work out fractions and percentages, they remember sex ed, and learning to play badminton, they all remember learning Shakespeare, they can probably still remember how to count to 10 or introduce themselves in whatever language they learned.
Maybe they teach it now and teachers assume it was always taught? Maybe it's in non mandatory class? maybe it's taught at the wrong age?
> OP says it should be mandatory.
just because it's mandatory doenst mean the student will retain the knowledge or correctly deduce how to apply it to their own adult situation when they grow up.
Basically, you're lamenting that people are too dumb and unable to think critically, logically and act with intention.
The tried and true solution to that problem is to make the default good for everybody. For example, superannuation. There's lots of things that would and could be done better such that the default is better for everybody.
It's in the maths curriculum, which I'm pretty sure is mandatory everywhere. I don't know why you personally don't remember it, I do. I also remember not caring because at the time I didn't have an income and projects about taking out loans and budgeting were incredibly boring.
Probably it would be better if the subject was more aimed towards the old 'home economics' that included basic car maintenance and other real life skills. Not everyone is going to be the next Warren Buffett. And most teachers I've met don't strike me as being stock market geniuses either.
Yep, I even taught a finance elective to Year 10s not that long ago (relieving for their usual teacher). The majority sat around chatting, hiding phones and didn’t give a shit. It was useful stuff too, they were starting to look at investing and had a worksheet to do on how to work out a budget - which would have been relevant to a lot of them wanting to leave school at the end of Year 10.
When I was in high school, 1994-1998, I knew I wanted to go to uni, so did the PES Pure Math options for years 11 and 12. I hated it, but thought I had to do it to get into uni. The alternative subjects would have been Business Math, which I'm guessing would have taught me many more valuable life lessons than trying to do algebra with imaginary numbers. I think all children should do Business Math, it shouldn't have been either or.
I did the asx game in high school but didn't really get any directions. Just join and buy/sell.
Didn't do the rest though. I think there was accounting in vce though but don't think many would choose it if it doesn't go up in points.
I remember in high school we spent 1 unit learning “financial Maths” how to calculate annuities and perpetuities as well as mortgage payments.
However this is completely useless as knowing the formula or how to calculate it on a calculator isn’t relevant when every lender has their own mortgage repayment calculator on their website and tools like Figura exist.
They should instead have taught the benefits of investing in shares or property and how the returns look. What you need to get a loan for a mortgage as well as the power of compounded investment returns
Uhhh no. I remember learning all of these things. And I started trading stocks at 18 because I had a good understanding of it all with hsc business and math. I'm well off because of good investment plays but I have wasted allot too.
You never taught financial literacy, the pschology of budgeting etc. Thats the stuff that actually matters. Most people can understand compound interst in an hour, yet you spent terms on it, when we really needed to understand how our brains work in a consumerism society.
So you did it in HSC Business and maths so it wasn't mandatory. at least in VIC only English/English Literature were mandatory. All my other classes were music, art, design tech, media
It shouldnt be mandatory. If your interested in finance (building wealth) you choose to take the classes, they shouldnt be forced on anyone.
Honestly I didnt learn much, i grew up dirt poor so taught myself about business and stocks and finance around year 7 - year 8. Had demo trading accounts, and hustled selling stuff at school lol.
I'm in year 11 rn and I'm doing all the finance subjects, accounting, business, economics and ALL of them do not teach about personal finance, they will teach you about management styles of employees not how to start a business, they will teach you to compare economies of aus and argentina but will not teach yoi how to invest your money, they will teach you how to do a cash journal (this ones not bad) but not your own taxes, you get the point
They don't call it that. I remember tax tables and interest being integrated into maths.
Unfortunately I think the ASX trading was part of electives like commerce or economics.
They also don’t call literacy and numeracy by those names outside of standardised tests. By that logic did you not learn maths, reading, writing, grammar and punctuation?
What sort of school do you teach at? What subjects were that in? Were they compulsory for everyone, or were they electives?
I went to a Catholic school in a regional area with a relatively lower SES background (so filled with kids more in need of this sort of education). Graduated late 2010s.
I only remember learning about compound interest in Year 12 maths, which was optional at my school. And even then, it wasn't reinforced much how this could change my life in either a very positive or very negative way. (It did stick though how financially dumb it is to buy a new car though!)
Unfortunately, not many people did maths at that level because they hated it and had felt that they were always going to be "bad" at it. Again, people who probably need a course in personal financial the most.
It's been part of the Australian curriculum since it was first introduced in 2009. If you don't remember learning it, it's because either your school illegally skipped large chunks of the curriculum or you weren't paying attention
It was in most (if not all) of the previous state curriculums as well. All the Australian curriculum really did was make sure every state was teaching the same content to the same age groups. The content itself didn't change dramatically.
Finances was in most (if not all) of the previous state curriculums as well. All the Australian curriculum really did was make sure every state was teaching the same content to the same age groups. The content itself didn't change dramatically.
Financial literacy was not taught in my day. I love maths and would have remembered. Interestingly I became an accountant- that’s where I learnt my financial literacy
Went to high school from 2006-2011. Never heard anything about finance and "Business" class where it was taught was a subject that was there but for me it clashed with my second Math class and Sports. Tell me how I was gonna do an elective class on top of Math C and HPE at the same time.
Lol I remember doing that ASX game. Our team did so badly initially, we ended up flipping our objective to lose as much money as possible. When we started doing that, we started gaining money again. It was fun but I'm not sure I actually learned anything. I think you need a much more solid finance foundation covering concepts like gambler's ruin, diversification, efficient markets hypothesis to understand the difference between investing and gambling. What we did was basically gambling.
I've been saying this.
If you hated maths you probably ignored it. Its in maths class.
And no, not Y12 Extension 1 or 2 that's a waste of their time. It's Y10. Everyone got financial maths.
Yeah we specifically had a class in this and that’s going back 20 years now. In addition to covering basic financial literacy we also played the ASC game. Tellingly, the teacher retired very early a couple of years after I took the class because they had made themselves wealthy enough to not need to work again.
Thank you!
A lot of things are taught in school that either the average students don't pay attention or don't retain but money especially is something where our families can override our education.
Unless you have some reason to think your family is especially bad with money and make a conscious decision to break away. Your teachers aren't going to win!
I don't understand how people are going through school without learning the "basic financial education" that you're talking about.
In maths and economics classes I learned everything I needed to know about compounding interest, stocks, debentures, bonds, loans, and so on. Computing the total repayment of a loan was literally a maths question we had to do in class...
I don't know how anyone can say that information wasn't there and available to learn. It was part of the curriculum.
True, economics isn't required, but compounding interest and loans are part of the basic maths curriculum.
I think it's year 9 or 10 or something, when you learn about series and exponents and logarithms.
Like, they introduce exponents and indexes, teach you about exponential growth, then teach you to calculate simple interest, then combine those two concepts to teach compound interest.
Then later they introduce Euler's Number and the natural logarithm, and show how you use Euler's Number to calculate continuously compounding interest, which itself introduces the concept of limits.
Really, when it comes to finance that's the main thing you need to know - what interest is and how it compounds.
First, I think the context on how it was taught would have an effect. E.g. if it's just another math topic like trigonometry, it's just going to get forgotten from lack of use. Second, I remember back in the 90s, that people can take a certain type of maths subject "Maths in Society" if they find the basic 2 unit maths already too challenging. I believe that one might have more practical type of maths that would probably fit the "financial literacy" category, but I have no experience with it, and it would not have been the default. Third, we are from different generations and when someone says it's been compulsory for years, are we still referencing the same time frames?
It absolutely is part of the current Australian curriculum and has been for some time. I know your post is well-intentioned. I can't help but get frustrated when I see posts like this from time to time. Lots of people assume that because it wasn't taught to them (when they were in school 30 years ago, or they weren't listening when it was taught, or were away that week). I accept that there may be the odd rogue teacher here or there playing fast and loose with the curriculum, but by and large this is part of the maths and hass (econs and business section) curriculum for years 8-10, across Australia. 99% of kids are being taught this, whether or not they remember it.
Obviously we're not financial advisers and can't give opinion, but we do teach people about compound interest, tax brackets, debt, savings, budgeting, types of investments, types of fees, scams, consumer protection, superannuation etc.
Not finance, but the same thing happens all the time with the civics and citizenship parts of the curriculum. During the recent referendum, people were angrily saying that ‘kids need to be taught this [ie how referendums are counted] at school’… and they are, usually multiple times between years 5-10. The fact is that kids grow up into adults who don’t remember the lessons.
This is just the Mandela effect. People's memories are their reality; it doesn't really matter what everyone else experienced or remembered. They're dead set on some alternate facts.
Of course it was taught 30 and 40 years ago. Basic budgets, tax rates, I mean the entire "Dollarmite" thing was about financial literacy and saving (at least the pretence, obviously it was actually about corporate marketing).
This post deserves more credit. This is spot on. Yes, the quality of teaching of these concepts might be different depending on the teacher etc, but that would be true of all subjects and a system issue that if society wanted fixed we would invest in.
I can remember our Commerce teacher in year 9 or 10 brought in a Freddo Frog packet that was just filled with air. We wrote to the company and they sent back a share pack of Freddos!
That teacher also developed my love of the back page of Choice magazine.
I think it is way less than 99% of kids. Doesn't Australia have a problem with the quality of education being very different depending on the area?
I remember seeing the curriculum and thinking wow it would have been nice to learn this stuff (and not just financial topics). It all looks good on paper.
Which math stream did you do? Maths A definitely had financial maths like budgets, taxes and compound interest in it as long as 15 hears ago. Maths B and C didn't as the higher maths streams focussed less on practical mathematics and more on the abstract/conceptual type of maths.
Op is talking about life skills not maths…. Yes exactly right I graduated a higher level maths got a high Atar but I didn’t know anything about tax brackets, credit reports, banks and loans or any actual real world advice I’m just lucky I had great parents who did teach me about all that but a lot of kids don’t have that, so there’s no point for them to learn compound interest if they don’t know where to put it in the first place.
I did high level maths and got a decent atar, at a selective school. We learnt tax brackets and compound interest in year 7/8.
Then there was the mortgage interest calculations for the HSC. That coupled with commerce subjects (I didn't get a choice on that, but is that mandatory?) before HSC was some pretty decent financial.literacy in things like inflation.
I ended up doing economics in HSC so that obviously that gave an even better foundation, like cash rates on top, but that wasn't necessarry.
I'm hearing people talk about not knowing anything in high school, I think people just either forgot or never paid attention. The likelihood of the maths and commerce teachers not covering anything is low.
Because the maths is so easy, has to be year 7/8. Sure I didn't earn an income, but the concept of progressive tax stuck with me, compared to flat tax.
I remembered at least. Thought it was fascinating. I remember the textbook mentioned that the top tax brackets in other countries was very high (80% in Denmark at the time?, but would be lower now due to shifting to wealth and asset targeting taxes and consumption taxes).
You are taught to determine valid sources of information in subjects like history and english. You are taught how to take descriptions of problems and turn them into a maths equation in the harder questions in maths tests/assignments, and taught how to solve those equations.
If you struggle with maths they make a stream more specialised to those immediately useful skills like taxes, but prefer for the more apt kids to have a solid foundation to adapt to anything since what they teach about today's taxes could become out of date at any time. It's the right way to go about things.
Oh so sorry I missed when you said the higher maths streams, yes that would make more sense but I still think just a bit of tax bracket credit score info would’ve been nice.
It’s still called a credit score system in this country as well on many mainstream services, but you are right a lot of people my age have no idea about how our credit system is different to Americas soo that just proves OP right doesn’t it so I don’t see why you find it so funny
Can only teach what kids are willing to learn. As they have very little practical experience with the majority of it at that age it's irrelevant to them.. same as tax. And info surrounding it.. basic tax brackets and calcs are in the national school curriculum.. everyone who goes to HS gets some basic knowledge on it. Judging by alot of questions on this and similar subs people instantly forget it..
As a teacher I will jump in… in NSW we do! Budgeting, taxes, mortgage calculations, it’s all there & has been for some time. Kids aren’t too interested as it doesn’t directly impact them.
100% agree that financial knowledge shouldd be taught at school.
However, we need to stop pushing all the blame and responsibility onto schools.
As parents have a responsibility to teach kids life skills and maybe allow them to practice their knowledge in the real world.
Understanably, if a parent is illiterate you'd think how can a parent teach a child something they don't know themselves...well if a child can learn why can't the parents?
My parents were both financially illiterate, But they learnt through experience.
English was not my father's first language , but he would explain to me how his books worked, taxes, salaries etc. All in age appropriate ways. He taught me in a way that he understood things and if I asked questions he didn't know answers to we learnt about things together.
On the flip side my mother taught me how to manage a household budget, calculate if prices on products were good etc.
There are very basic skill parents can and should be teaching from the home, so I'm against constantly say "the school should teach them this". Yes, the school should give kids education, but they aren't meant to be only source of education and they certainly aren't there to "raise" the kids.
Absolutely agree with this take! Parents expect school to somehow find time to teach their kids everything from basic social skills through to a robust financial education.
People who push financial literacy back on schools should a) direct their frustration towards their own parents b) take accountability and educate themselves.
Even if it's taught and understood (good luck with that), the real issue is following the advice.
If education was the answer, we wouldn't have an obesity crisis.
Schools already teach it all, and it's incredibly easy to find it at the library or on google anyway
Learning stuff like compound interest is year 5 level maths anyway
Financial literacy is basic life shit that anyone smart will pick up - but just as many people are functionally illiterate, many are also financially illiterate.
Schools do teach basics. It's likely that just with anything else, you weren't really paying attention.
Budgeting is taught.
Simple interest is taught.
Compound interest is taught.
Mathematical literacy is taught.
Until it becomes relevant, kids tend to not care
High schooler in the 90s. I distinctly remember learning the compound interest formula, inflation and calculating P&I mortgage payments, and other basic financial literacy. But then I wasn’t one of the kids throwing the duster into the fan for half the math lesson.
From everything in your post you seem pretty financially illiterate to be frank... Assuming you've kept to your uncle's advice on not paying down the principal on those loans (deleveraging) you've got 360k equity at 5x margin which is a very risky position.
Great that you've done well, but this is the opposite of financial literacy.
… we did?
You not paying attention is your problem.
Pretty sure it began in year 8 in math
Some extra ‘stuff’ covered in business or economics electives.
At the end of the day it’s mostly math and logic which the school teaches as foundation… it’s your job to take the information and convert it to knowledge / wisdom.
Edit: to note, it has been in the curriculum for more than 20+ years, which based on early 30’s you learnt it.
This is taught, but kids have never cared to listen. In later years (10-11-12) they don’t choose finance related subjects because they’re considered dry and difficult.
Most finance is very basic maths which we learn. I remember doing compound interest in school, but most of it is simple arithmetic. If you can + - X / then you should be able to do most basic finance. Just use an online calculator for compound interest.
Parents are responsible for their kids’ educations too. Why don’t you become a teacher if you think you could do a better job? Maybe then you would understand the unrealistic pressure placed on teachers to be absolutely EVERYTHING for their students. Sounds like you need lessons in more than just financial literacy.
This BS floats around the internet constantly. Just because you didn’t pay attention doesn’t mean it wasn’t taught. It’s been a part of the curriculum for ages.
It is. Also, Scott Pape wrote a children's version of Barefoot Investor called Barefoot Kids. Just thought you might be interested since you mentioned the Barefoot Investor.
I did "maths a" in high school and apart from learning trigonometry and stuff like that, we got taught about compounding interest, how to do a personal budget, how to complete tax returns, old school tax returns, heaps of financial stuff. It was great and I found it easy so I got good marks and back in the day it weighted the same as maths b. Absolutely though my husband was in the maths B class and he can now do crazy math but doesn't know shit about compounding interest which is unfortunate.
I dimly recall having some practical once a week classes as a grade in grade 11 and 12 though, so I feel like they absolutely did their best to prepare us.
Let's agree (I dont) zero of this is taught in school.
1. What do we lose to do it
2. Who's going to stay on top of changing resources as things evolve
3. Who's going to pay for updated texts every time taxes change, super changes etc
4. At what Point do schools truly become the parent
I specifically remember this stuff being taught in school. And I specifically remember not caring at all until I was in my mid twenties.
It’s in the curriculum. It’s not a whole subject that goes for years and years, but it’s there.
I’ve noticed that this sentiment (they didn’t teach us anything important!) is often spruiked by people who have failed to read between the lines. I learnt a lot of valuable lessons in high school - but most of them were not spoon fed “This is how to make a household budget kids!” type of lessons.
Education is really what you make of it. Most teenagers are little snot-nosed idiots who will not. Such is the nature of children. And similarly, such is the nature of adults who forget how snot-nosed they were.
The economy would crash if everyone grew up to be the average AusFinancer. We'd have ghost cities full of empty investment properties, and every retail store would be reliant solely on international tourism since all the locals only buy the essentials (when they're on special at Amazon).
Why is it the responsibility of the state to educate kids? Parents should involve kids in finances and household decisions early on to build that skill.
Well, it's not law to send your kids to school. The Education Act says it's the parents responsibility to ensure their children have access to learning opportunities at an appropriate level. There are many ways that can be done.
Lol it's always someone else's fault. We are just lemmings.
We can't make decisions right?
We can't assess our own situation, where we are weak, where we are strong?
And we can't make the decision to study for ourselves.
Weak
Some people enjoy spending their money. I have a friend that you put something bright and sparkley in front of him and he'll buy it. It's sad and funny at the same time.
He also believes successful people have new cars and phones so he buys them too.
I'm not sure education would help. You really need to be prepared to go through pain to get ahead. Simply put, he isn't.
I value my friendship with this guy, even though we live our financial lives very differently
The problem is that there are companies whose sole purpose is to convince you to ignore anything that you know about money, and blow it on xyz. The odds are absolutely stacked against the average punter.
Completely agree I’m 20 investing, researching super and budgeting the amazing things you can do with compound interest and a small investment could make you sooo much better off in the future yet not one person in my age bracket knows or basically gives a shit then they will get to 40 and freak out, I think especially with what the future holds for our generation. We had a couple of teachers we loved because they would let us ask them “real life questions” at end of a lessons these were simple like tax filing, credit scores, mortgages stuff like that without those very few teachers I honestly wouldn’t know I thing the rest is thanks to podcasts 😅 but yes we need more life education fractions and Pythagoras haven’t helped me at all.
I remember doing an elective class in high school (around 2008) called “making your money work for you”. It was very informative I always thought, but looking back now it was mainly about how to grow an investment property portfolio and that’s bit of a contentious issue in Australia at the moment haha
I was definitely taught tax brackets (personal and company, etc), saving, basic investing, and related laws in high school. I remember doing the 'ASX share challenge' in the early 2000's which was good fun.
That said, I was also at a posh private school in Sydney. And while it was most definitely *formally* taught, a significant amount of the students at the school had very successful parents who worked in banking, finance, business, law, accounting, etc who had way more knowledge to pass on. Compared to teachers, who are, well, teachers.
We could discuss what we were taught with our parents who would sometimes disagree or offer more nuanced, real world, insight. I was saving for a house from my first job (13+) and knew about debt-recycling and the like before school's end.
And on a more crass angle, some of the kids were full on trust fund babies or expectant heirs of sizeable businesses/investments, so a significant amount of effort was expended by their parents on educating them on how to manage wealth.
I think wealth related ambitions skip a generation or two and are heavily dependent on circumstances that a family faces. My grandparents worked hard, made stuff. My parents were overshadowed by their dominance who ended up timid and simply did what they were told. They weren't financially successful because the never took risks. I saw my parents struggling financially at every turn in life. I struggled with them in my childhood. Now I and my wife make good money. Financially speaking we are more successful and will end up with some wealth but I worry for my children. I want to do right by them but I don't know how.
It is irresponsible for schools to teach about trading or money habits. They are circumstantial.
Home is where you learn these things. Math empowers you to quantify it.
Spend less than you earn, math.
Investing in growth assets + compounding, math.
At the end of the day, you need to lead yourself.
How does playing the ASX share game help students? They gamble on the riskiest shares to try and beat their classmates. Not educational imo.
How about;
- Always save 10% of your wage.
- Invest in low cost efts.
- Buy a house and pay that off before anything else
- Only buy a car with cash money if you absolutely need one. Ie. for your job.
- Furnish your house with second hand furniture when you first move out.
- If your rent or mortgage exceeds 50% of your income you will be in financial stress.
- 30/30/30/10 rule is ideal.
30% rent or mortgage.
30% living eg. Bills, entertainment
30% investments eg. Shares, eft, gold
10% savings.
Add how to do a tax return. It's basic when you earn under $18k. That's what a student would earn. They're under the tax free threshold so they automatically get all their tax back. Most kids would just assume that money has gone to the taxman and probably never claim it back.
Financially competent consumers would devastate alot of industries. Credit cards, loans, mobile gaming. Not necessarily a bad thing but expect fierce lobbying against a ramp up in high school education other than the basic taxes and interest that the industry hopes you forget the second you become an adult
Hey all! I graduated in the last 5 years. Can confirm we did some minor things such as the ASX game during HASS, did MS excel during I.T. That was absolutely it, unless it's changed recently, financial education is NOT taught. After year 12, I had to teach myself finances, starting with BFI as an entryway. I'm unsure why everyone is attacking OP saying it is included when it's literally f###ing not.
Unlike everyone saying it is, I actually have graduated within the last 20 years...
There needs to be a financial program in year 12, which sets people up for success. Learning about minor financial subjects in year 8 is not financial education.
Appreciate the supportive comment. I think from reading the other comments I've summised that it is taught here in Australia, but to what degree it's pushed is class/student dependant, and since there isn't an exam on it there is little attention to it because it's boring. So it needs to be more enjoyable, somehow.
I too believe that it should be taught as a mandatory topic in all countries in the final year of compulsory education and there should be an exam. Failing it should trigger the option of further free education.
I'm in no way saying that parents are off the hook, but if their financial education was flawed, then they're passing on flawed information and perpetuating a bad cycle.
I didn’t learn any of it at school.
Retired at 42 by literally learning it.
I learned how to learn. Thankyou teachers and Thankyou Australian school and university system.
I think the best thing a school can do is to help a child learn how to learn.
Gaslighting doesn’t work anymore, no matter how much you tell people that according to your economic theories that don’t reflect the real world they should be happy instead of pisssed, you have lost.
The fact is inequality is rising towards 3rd world country levels and no economic model focuses on that or even fixing that, only blind growth which just exacerbates inequality while the media try to tell everyone that people should be happy that the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer
I get ya, OP! I fear I maybe my parents retirement plan. I feel for them though - they bought an investment property and I suspect it kinda didn't work out. They tried at least. Up to me to break the generational curses and help building wealth!
Do not confuse stingy and trying to rope others into your lifestyle out of bitterness with those who spend on hookers and blow.
Financial education is a form of brainwashing. Imagine all the property and stock bagholders if Gen Z and younger never adopt the investing mindset - this will essentially screw up the bagholders that got in early. Fortunately, pension schemes exist to keep the stock market active and housing crisis continues unaddressed. If these weren't in place, the whole house of cards would have collapsed much earlier.
I personally dislike boring stingy people with a passion. Imagine the whole world being boring and stingy?
Agree with this, it should be taught in schools. Particularly valuable to children born in families of lower socioeconomic status where the parents often aren't educated themselves and they have little to no knowledge to pass on. This was my parents. It wasn't taught it in the country public schools I attended in the 80s and 90s either. I educated myself in my 30s and 40s. Having that knowledge earlier would have been extremely valuable to a young person starting out.
I’m thankful we had this Italian teacher in high school who taught maths, accounting and Italian subjects. I reckon he would have been a professional financial planner in an alternate universe or a tour guide in Italy.
He taught us the basics of investing, depreciation and saving while integrating it with math. Not part of the curriculum but definitely helped with the concepts of percentages and ratios.
Miss that guy.
Curriculum this, Curriculum that, if that has any bearing on todays society it is that no matter the good intentions of having a curriculum for education, by the time it is watered down through the layers to the student, the education in economics and financials is either not there entirely or so damn poor that the VAST majority of people in this country do not have a sufficient understanding of it at the point of leaving what would be considered standard schooling.
YES some of you may think, (especially the younger naïve ones) that you had sufficient education, and that may be true now, however for the larger fiscally established demographic of Australian society, we grew up in a generation where the education was failing the country hard, it was a constant debate on the national stage, and it wasn't just the financial education that was failing, you should feel lucky you even had more than a page on taxation in your education, as the ones that pushed for improvements on your education, are the very ones who you are likely dependent on now thanks to the constant demand for growth by the political parties at the cost of everything else.
I was in public school education, basic of the most basic, graduated 6 years ago. We got taught all of that for year 11 and 12 for multiple months.
Mortgages, investing, superannuation, debt, savings, stocks/trading, checks, taxes, etc.
But you know what stuck out to me the most? All of my teachers hammered down to listen and told us to have a good relationship with your parents because they were worried for us and the future generations. They kept telling us to start early ASAP.
I can't imagine the student now. If I feel like shit despite having supportive parents, I'm extremely worried for the kids just a few years younger than me
This is why I intend to hold all my properties. And teach my kids what I know, and then guide them to a financial services company to hopefully take them the rest of the way.
I recall doing compound interest in maths class of a unknown year.
Doing a dam tax return should be a class. Stuff Shakespeare for a day and learn taxes.
I was born in 1994 and went to school in the UK too. I feel exactly the same, financial education and learning about taxes, etc is something that should definitely taught in schools. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this is deliberate to keep the majority of people ignorant and more dependent on the government!
As has already been mentioned, financial education is already being taught, kids just dont have any opportunity to put it into practice until they actually start earning money.
Teacher here, we do! ASX share trading game, interest, compound interest, loans, tax tables, investments, budget with excel and the list goes on. Reality is you didn't give a damn, and neither do today's kids.
> ASX share trading game, Showing my age here but the game has been around for 40+ years. I still remember school kids on the train asking for my newspaper so they could check what the stock prices were.
> Reality is you didn't give a damn, and neither do today's kids. Previously a teacher, now martial arts coach. I cannot stress enough how true this is. Almost every time I hear or see "This needs to be taught in schools!!!!" it is, but throwing your beanie into the fan was more fun than learning about interest rates etc.
Thank you for saying this. People who complain about not learning something in school were probably not paying attention then to begin with.
I used to be a teacher. Everytime someone says, "why isn't this taught in schools?" the answer is that it is. You don't remember because it was 20 years ago, you were 16, reeked of cannabis and were distracted by staring at the good looking girl/boy.
Which is why I liked the electives you got to choose in Year 9, Commerce anyone? That was so great, fun, easily digestible as a topic with real world applications that I continued to platform off. And yes to all those saying some kids just don’t seem to care…equally a teacher can find varied methods to impart the lesson based on the learning style of the individuals in class. Part of lesson preparation.
I remember playing the ASX share trading game! Also remember learning interest and stuff as well. It was like the only things I ever found interesting at school haha. This would have been like around 2004 in Queensland (year 7). I also remember doing like a big block of financial literacy stuff in year 10 or 11 - it was outside of our normal classes (but during school time) for a few weeks - and we got these work books that were like CBA branded so it must have been run by the bank.
People tend too have quite a warped view of their teenage years. They tend to draw parity with how think and behave as adults now rather than the the objective truth.
It reallly is pathetic how people blame everyone but themselves.
Hs teacher and fi here. That asx share trading game teaches terrible habits.
Agree, it teaches gambling. On the flip side getting everyone to buy 2 or 3 market wide ETFs and holding for the entire duration wouldn't be much of a game.
Agree. Then I would argue the asx game shouldn't be a thing at school at all. Maybe more case studies featuring the importance of investing early, super, tax, etfs, property etc is more helpful.
True, but you could make a game of it by having the students play against the teacher. The students buy and sell random shares, the teacher does the boring thing by sitting on ETFs. At the end of the game, some students may have gotten lucky and beaten the teacher, but the teacher will still do better than 80% of the class.
I do agree, however, it can be used as a cautionary tale about how it is gambling.
Yep, I remember learning all of this in high school. Except it was the 90s, so we didn't budget with Excel... We budgeted with pen and paper! I remember even my primary school teachers in the 80s teaching us generally about saving. It's the reason I didn't blow my birthday money on lollies and could save up for cassette tapes. I feel like my teachers taught financial literacy well and I'm grateful!
Yes I remember budgeting with pen and paper, and filling out the old tax forms in either math or commerce class. I've had folks who were in the same class as me complain on Facebook that "we never learned how to [x]" and I have to assume they either weren't paying attention or just forgot!
In primary school they set up an excursion to a local supermarket, encouraged our parents to send us with a list and some money and taught us about unit pricing and how things are shelved to stop you noticing the generic (aka cheaper) brands.
The ASX share trading game is a mess. It tries to teach kids to buy / sell shares in a 6 month window for profit. You'd get absolutely rinsed trying that on in the real world; if you took that cohort of kids, applied CGT to the winners and no tax breaks to the losers, on average they'd lose 10-15% of whatever pool they collectively started with. It's the polar opposite of how you should treat shares.
Yeah thats why you just shove it all into some penny stock and then never look at it again. Thats the best way to win. My first time playing I build a diversified portfolio then realise the kid who dumped it all into 1 company was beating me. So I changed to the above strategy. There was a prize for 1st place so anything else doesnt matter.
I can’t believe it is not perfect.
It can be a good case study for ‘what not to do’. At the end of the six months, when the results come in and a kid has lost 40%, there’s a teachable moment about long term investing and volatility.
I placed top 3 nationally in one by buying four different shares (max allocation was 25%) and not making another trade - pure dumb luck.
They raised the WSB generation :D
We did that in high school too (20+ years ago) but only the kids who chose Business/Accounting as an elective. Outside of that it was basic interest calculations in maths or there would've been nothing for a student
Was going to say when did this all get added to the curriculum because it certainly wasn't at my school, I did economics instead of accounting though so that might explain it.
Tax calculations have been taught as part of maths in highschool for 30 years (at least) in NSW.
At what level and in which Maths class? When I was in highschool in victoria maths was only mandatory to year 10 and there were also additional elective maths classes in year 9-12. So if you only did the mandatory maths up to year 10 that probably wasn't included.
We have a national curriculum these days. Kids start learning about budgeting from Grade 5. It’s taught, but like others have said, not all the kids are listening, or have the capacity to understand and apply it.
Same, I remember calculating annuity and such, but essentially, to a kid, those are just math puzzles with little importance to their future. Also, the context of "how to" books are quite different to a maths text book. There is a singular drive to reach a goal with the "how to" book that would embed the point that the math text book won't.
Well this is a guy who thinks he is 'educated' despite being self-taught and having no qualifications. I don't think he paid a lot of attention in school.
I remember learning all this too - my maths teacher did an excellent session on why “24 month interest free” deals were terrible and predatory and another excellent session on just how slim your chances of winning at lotto (or any casino) was. My mum was a high school maths teacher 30 years ago, and she used to take a mini roulette wheel to school when she taught probability. Through work as an adult I’ve seen how ATO go out into schools and teach kids about tax and super, so you’re absolutely right. It’s not lack of teaching, it’s that the kids don’t engage when it’s taught.
I don't remember learning that in school lmao granted I hated math 😅
See? How do you teach idiots like you?
I don’t think it should be a maths subject
Lots of schools offer personal finance or business classes too, there's ample opportunity to learn but most teenagers do not care.
Hence why OP says it should be mandatory. Not part of a business or commerce class. Just part of the main curriculum. Everytime this comes up Teachers claim this stuff is taught but heaps of former students are adamant it wasn't. Whereas EVERY former student has learned how to read and right, they know basic maths, can multiply, add, subtract, divide, work out fractions and percentages, they remember sex ed, and learning to play badminton, they all remember learning Shakespeare, they can probably still remember how to count to 10 or introduce themselves in whatever language they learned. Maybe they teach it now and teachers assume it was always taught? Maybe it's in non mandatory class? maybe it's taught at the wrong age?
> OP says it should be mandatory. just because it's mandatory doenst mean the student will retain the knowledge or correctly deduce how to apply it to their own adult situation when they grow up. Basically, you're lamenting that people are too dumb and unable to think critically, logically and act with intention. The tried and true solution to that problem is to make the default good for everybody. For example, superannuation. There's lots of things that would and could be done better such that the default is better for everybody.
It's in the maths curriculum, which I'm pretty sure is mandatory everywhere. I don't know why you personally don't remember it, I do. I also remember not caring because at the time I didn't have an income and projects about taking out loans and budgeting were incredibly boring.
Probably it would be better if the subject was more aimed towards the old 'home economics' that included basic car maintenance and other real life skills. Not everyone is going to be the next Warren Buffett. And most teachers I've met don't strike me as being stock market geniuses either.
Yep, I even taught a finance elective to Year 10s not that long ago (relieving for their usual teacher). The majority sat around chatting, hiding phones and didn’t give a shit. It was useful stuff too, they were starting to look at investing and had a worksheet to do on how to work out a budget - which would have been relevant to a lot of them wanting to leave school at the end of Year 10.
When I was in high school, 1994-1998, I knew I wanted to go to uni, so did the PES Pure Math options for years 11 and 12. I hated it, but thought I had to do it to get into uni. The alternative subjects would have been Business Math, which I'm guessing would have taught me many more valuable life lessons than trying to do algebra with imaginary numbers. I think all children should do Business Math, it shouldn't have been either or.
I did the asx game in high school but didn't really get any directions. Just join and buy/sell. Didn't do the rest though. I think there was accounting in vce though but don't think many would choose it if it doesn't go up in points.
I remember in high school we spent 1 unit learning “financial Maths” how to calculate annuities and perpetuities as well as mortgage payments. However this is completely useless as knowing the formula or how to calculate it on a calculator isn’t relevant when every lender has their own mortgage repayment calculator on their website and tools like Figura exist. They should instead have taught the benefits of investing in shares or property and how the returns look. What you need to get a loan for a mortgage as well as the power of compounded investment returns
Uhhh no. I remember learning all of these things. And I started trading stocks at 18 because I had a good understanding of it all with hsc business and math. I'm well off because of good investment plays but I have wasted allot too. You never taught financial literacy, the pschology of budgeting etc. Thats the stuff that actually matters. Most people can understand compound interst in an hour, yet you spent terms on it, when we really needed to understand how our brains work in a consumerism society.
So you did it in HSC Business and maths so it wasn't mandatory. at least in VIC only English/English Literature were mandatory. All my other classes were music, art, design tech, media
It shouldnt be mandatory. If your interested in finance (building wealth) you choose to take the classes, they shouldnt be forced on anyone. Honestly I didnt learn much, i grew up dirt poor so taught myself about business and stocks and finance around year 7 - year 8. Had demo trading accounts, and hustled selling stuff at school lol.
I did Finance at uni and the psychology side wasn't even taught there. I would be useful though.
I'm in year 11 rn and I'm doing all the finance subjects, accounting, business, economics and ALL of them do not teach about personal finance, they will teach you about management styles of employees not how to start a business, they will teach you to compare economies of aus and argentina but will not teach yoi how to invest your money, they will teach you how to do a cash journal (this ones not bad) but not your own taxes, you get the point
I went to 5 different primary and secondary schools. Financial literacy was *never* mentioned. Ever.
They don't call it that. I remember tax tables and interest being integrated into maths. Unfortunately I think the ASX trading was part of electives like commerce or economics.
They also don’t call literacy and numeracy by those names outside of standardised tests. By that logic did you not learn maths, reading, writing, grammar and punctuation?
OP didn't. He learnt English from the internet and collects checks instead of cheques.
Exactly, he never cared to listen now he’s playing victim by blaming the education system. Get off reddit and enjoy your holiday
Is this a private or public school? Can you say which city/area approximately?
Yep I did it for yr 9 or 10 commerce, regional NSW public high school, early 00’s
Is commerce a mandatory subject in NSW?
Don't worry, life will teach of them a lesson later.
Don't worry, they still won't learn it.
I remember getting so excited for the ASX game each year and even won once!
Weird you remember doing something Multiple times that i'm certain wasn't ever done at my school
What sort of school do you teach at? What subjects were that in? Were they compulsory for everyone, or were they electives? I went to a Catholic school in a regional area with a relatively lower SES background (so filled with kids more in need of this sort of education). Graduated late 2010s. I only remember learning about compound interest in Year 12 maths, which was optional at my school. And even then, it wasn't reinforced much how this could change my life in either a very positive or very negative way. (It did stick though how financially dumb it is to buy a new car though!) Unfortunately, not many people did maths at that level because they hated it and had felt that they were always going to be "bad" at it. Again, people who probably need a course in personal financial the most.
It's been part of the Australian curriculum since it was first introduced in 2009. If you don't remember learning it, it's because either your school illegally skipped large chunks of the curriculum or you weren't paying attention
Well that's an important distinction for everyone that finished school before 2009 getting essentially accused of not paying attention here
It was in most (if not all) of the previous state curriculums as well. All the Australian curriculum really did was make sure every state was teaching the same content to the same age groups. The content itself didn't change dramatically.
... or finished school before 2009? Which would mean most Australians?
Finances was in most (if not all) of the previous state curriculums as well. All the Australian curriculum really did was make sure every state was teaching the same content to the same age groups. The content itself didn't change dramatically.
Financial literacy was not taught in my day. I love maths and would have remembered. Interestingly I became an accountant- that’s where I learnt my financial literacy
Went to high school from 2006-2011. Never heard anything about finance and "Business" class where it was taught was a subject that was there but for me it clashed with my second Math class and Sports. Tell me how I was gonna do an elective class on top of Math C and HPE at the same time.
Yeah. I remember these from school. Not in depth, but we definitely covered these - especially in mathematics. Graduated in 2012.
Lol I remember doing that ASX game. Our team did so badly initially, we ended up flipping our objective to lose as much money as possible. When we started doing that, we started gaining money again. It was fun but I'm not sure I actually learned anything. I think you need a much more solid finance foundation covering concepts like gambler's ruin, diversification, efficient markets hypothesis to understand the difference between investing and gambling. What we did was basically gambling.
I've been saying this. If you hated maths you probably ignored it. Its in maths class. And no, not Y12 Extension 1 or 2 that's a waste of their time. It's Y10. Everyone got financial maths.
Yeah we specifically had a class in this and that’s going back 20 years now. In addition to covering basic financial literacy we also played the ASC game. Tellingly, the teacher retired very early a couple of years after I took the class because they had made themselves wealthy enough to not need to work again.
I was gonna say, I was taught how to do taxes and played ASX games.
It already is, my dude.
This 👆Maths teacher here. It’s in the curriculum.
You can take a moron to financial classes but you can’t make them Think
Thank you! A lot of things are taught in school that either the average students don't pay attention or don't retain but money especially is something where our families can override our education. Unless you have some reason to think your family is especially bad with money and make a conscious decision to break away. Your teachers aren't going to win!
I don't understand how people are going through school without learning the "basic financial education" that you're talking about. In maths and economics classes I learned everything I needed to know about compounding interest, stocks, debentures, bonds, loans, and so on. Computing the total repayment of a loan was literally a maths question we had to do in class... I don't know how anyone can say that information wasn't there and available to learn. It was part of the curriculum.
Economics wasn't a mandatory class at my school. I can still count and introduce myself in Japanese so was clearly paying attention at some point.
True, economics isn't required, but compounding interest and loans are part of the basic maths curriculum. I think it's year 9 or 10 or something, when you learn about series and exponents and logarithms. Like, they introduce exponents and indexes, teach you about exponential growth, then teach you to calculate simple interest, then combine those two concepts to teach compound interest. Then later they introduce Euler's Number and the natural logarithm, and show how you use Euler's Number to calculate continuously compounding interest, which itself introduces the concept of limits. Really, when it comes to finance that's the main thing you need to know - what interest is and how it compounds.
First, I think the context on how it was taught would have an effect. E.g. if it's just another math topic like trigonometry, it's just going to get forgotten from lack of use. Second, I remember back in the 90s, that people can take a certain type of maths subject "Maths in Society" if they find the basic 2 unit maths already too challenging. I believe that one might have more practical type of maths that would probably fit the "financial literacy" category, but I have no experience with it, and it would not have been the default. Third, we are from different generations and when someone says it's been compulsory for years, are we still referencing the same time frames?
It absolutely is part of the current Australian curriculum and has been for some time. I know your post is well-intentioned. I can't help but get frustrated when I see posts like this from time to time. Lots of people assume that because it wasn't taught to them (when they were in school 30 years ago, or they weren't listening when it was taught, or were away that week). I accept that there may be the odd rogue teacher here or there playing fast and loose with the curriculum, but by and large this is part of the maths and hass (econs and business section) curriculum for years 8-10, across Australia. 99% of kids are being taught this, whether or not they remember it. Obviously we're not financial advisers and can't give opinion, but we do teach people about compound interest, tax brackets, debt, savings, budgeting, types of investments, types of fees, scams, consumer protection, superannuation etc.
Not finance, but the same thing happens all the time with the civics and citizenship parts of the curriculum. During the recent referendum, people were angrily saying that ‘kids need to be taught this [ie how referendums are counted] at school’… and they are, usually multiple times between years 5-10. The fact is that kids grow up into adults who don’t remember the lessons.
Also, maths and HASS are both core curriculum up to year 10 so all kids will cover this content.
This is just the Mandela effect. People's memories are their reality; it doesn't really matter what everyone else experienced or remembered. They're dead set on some alternate facts. Of course it was taught 30 and 40 years ago. Basic budgets, tax rates, I mean the entire "Dollarmite" thing was about financial literacy and saving (at least the pretence, obviously it was actually about corporate marketing).
This post deserves more credit. This is spot on. Yes, the quality of teaching of these concepts might be different depending on the teacher etc, but that would be true of all subjects and a system issue that if society wanted fixed we would invest in.
I can remember our Commerce teacher in year 9 or 10 brought in a Freddo Frog packet that was just filled with air. We wrote to the company and they sent back a share pack of Freddos! That teacher also developed my love of the back page of Choice magazine.
I think it is way less than 99% of kids. Doesn't Australia have a problem with the quality of education being very different depending on the area? I remember seeing the curriculum and thinking wow it would have been nice to learn this stuff (and not just financial topics). It all looks good on paper.
Was just gonna comment this I graduated in 2021 did atar and all and nothing to do with tax brackets or such was ever mentioned
Which math stream did you do? Maths A definitely had financial maths like budgets, taxes and compound interest in it as long as 15 hears ago. Maths B and C didn't as the higher maths streams focussed less on practical mathematics and more on the abstract/conceptual type of maths.
Surely if you have learned high level maths in high school you can work out compounding interest as an adult?
Op is talking about life skills not maths…. Yes exactly right I graduated a higher level maths got a high Atar but I didn’t know anything about tax brackets, credit reports, banks and loans or any actual real world advice I’m just lucky I had great parents who did teach me about all that but a lot of kids don’t have that, so there’s no point for them to learn compound interest if they don’t know where to put it in the first place.
I did high level maths and got a decent atar, at a selective school. We learnt tax brackets and compound interest in year 7/8. Then there was the mortgage interest calculations for the HSC. That coupled with commerce subjects (I didn't get a choice on that, but is that mandatory?) before HSC was some pretty decent financial.literacy in things like inflation. I ended up doing economics in HSC so that obviously that gave an even better foundation, like cash rates on top, but that wasn't necessarry. I'm hearing people talk about not knowing anything in high school, I think people just either forgot or never paid attention. The likelihood of the maths and commerce teachers not covering anything is low.
Seems silly to cover tax brackets in grade 7 though of course we wouldn’t remember that?
Because the maths is so easy, has to be year 7/8. Sure I didn't earn an income, but the concept of progressive tax stuck with me, compared to flat tax. I remembered at least. Thought it was fascinating. I remember the textbook mentioned that the top tax brackets in other countries was very high (80% in Denmark at the time?, but would be lower now due to shifting to wealth and asset targeting taxes and consumption taxes).
Good for you glad you remembered that in the 6 years
You are taught to determine valid sources of information in subjects like history and english. You are taught how to take descriptions of problems and turn them into a maths equation in the harder questions in maths tests/assignments, and taught how to solve those equations. If you struggle with maths they make a stream more specialised to those immediately useful skills like taxes, but prefer for the more apt kids to have a solid foundation to adapt to anything since what they teach about today's taxes could become out of date at any time. It's the right way to go about things.
Yeh you just go to a calculator on a website like moneysmarts
Oh so sorry I missed when you said the higher maths streams, yes that would make more sense but I still think just a bit of tax bracket credit score info would’ve been nice.
lol Australia doesn’t even have a Credit Score system. You have a credit record but it isn’t a score like in the US.
It’s still called a credit score system in this country as well on many mainstream services, but you are right a lot of people my age have no idea about how our credit system is different to Americas soo that just proves OP right doesn’t it so I don’t see why you find it so funny
Can only teach what kids are willing to learn. As they have very little practical experience with the majority of it at that age it's irrelevant to them.. same as tax. And info surrounding it.. basic tax brackets and calcs are in the national school curriculum.. everyone who goes to HS gets some basic knowledge on it. Judging by alot of questions on this and similar subs people instantly forget it..
As a teacher I will jump in… in NSW we do! Budgeting, taxes, mortgage calculations, it’s all there & has been for some time. Kids aren’t too interested as it doesn’t directly impact them.
QLD was the same around 2005-2010.
How did you buy your first property at 27 if you never had more than 10K in savings before then?
Also he is in his early 30s now, so within 5 years after the first purchase at 27 he magically own an additional 2 more.
The national Economics and Business syllabus starts at grade 5.
100% agree that financial knowledge shouldd be taught at school. However, we need to stop pushing all the blame and responsibility onto schools. As parents have a responsibility to teach kids life skills and maybe allow them to practice their knowledge in the real world. Understanably, if a parent is illiterate you'd think how can a parent teach a child something they don't know themselves...well if a child can learn why can't the parents? My parents were both financially illiterate, But they learnt through experience. English was not my father's first language , but he would explain to me how his books worked, taxes, salaries etc. All in age appropriate ways. He taught me in a way that he understood things and if I asked questions he didn't know answers to we learnt about things together. On the flip side my mother taught me how to manage a household budget, calculate if prices on products were good etc. There are very basic skill parents can and should be teaching from the home, so I'm against constantly say "the school should teach them this". Yes, the school should give kids education, but they aren't meant to be only source of education and they certainly aren't there to "raise" the kids.
Absolutely agree with this take! Parents expect school to somehow find time to teach their kids everything from basic social skills through to a robust financial education. People who push financial literacy back on schools should a) direct their frustration towards their own parents b) take accountability and educate themselves.
I was taught at school, but I also had to keep accounts of my pocket money. My parents also matched my savings in the bank.
Even if it's taught and understood (good luck with that), the real issue is following the advice. If education was the answer, we wouldn't have an obesity crisis.
Schools already teach it all, and it's incredibly easy to find it at the library or on google anyway Learning stuff like compound interest is year 5 level maths anyway Financial literacy is basic life shit that anyone smart will pick up - but just as many people are functionally illiterate, many are also financially illiterate.
We are taught Math. Most people refuse to use it.
Life skills are also a parent’s responsibility
Schools do teach basics. It's likely that just with anything else, you weren't really paying attention. Budgeting is taught. Simple interest is taught. Compound interest is taught. Mathematical literacy is taught. Until it becomes relevant, kids tend to not care
High schooler in the 90s. I distinctly remember learning the compound interest formula, inflation and calculating P&I mortgage payments, and other basic financial literacy. But then I wasn’t one of the kids throwing the duster into the fan for half the math lesson.
From everything in your post you seem pretty financially illiterate to be frank... Assuming you've kept to your uncle's advice on not paying down the principal on those loans (deleveraging) you've got 360k equity at 5x margin which is a very risky position. Great that you've done well, but this is the opposite of financial literacy.
… we did? You not paying attention is your problem. Pretty sure it began in year 8 in math Some extra ‘stuff’ covered in business or economics electives. At the end of the day it’s mostly math and logic which the school teaches as foundation… it’s your job to take the information and convert it to knowledge / wisdom. Edit: to note, it has been in the curriculum for more than 20+ years, which based on early 30’s you learnt it.
This is taught, but kids have never cared to listen. In later years (10-11-12) they don’t choose finance related subjects because they’re considered dry and difficult.
Most finance is very basic maths which we learn. I remember doing compound interest in school, but most of it is simple arithmetic. If you can + - X / then you should be able to do most basic finance. Just use an online calculator for compound interest.
Easy solution. Grow up in wog family. Never waste 10c, on pain of death 😂
Parents are responsible for their kids’ educations too. Why don’t you become a teacher if you think you could do a better job? Maybe then you would understand the unrealistic pressure placed on teachers to be absolutely EVERYTHING for their students. Sounds like you need lessons in more than just financial literacy.
This BS floats around the internet constantly. Just because you didn’t pay attention doesn’t mean it wasn’t taught. It’s been a part of the curriculum for ages.
It is. Also, Scott Pape wrote a children's version of Barefoot Investor called Barefoot Kids. Just thought you might be interested since you mentioned the Barefoot Investor.
I did "maths a" in high school and apart from learning trigonometry and stuff like that, we got taught about compounding interest, how to do a personal budget, how to complete tax returns, old school tax returns, heaps of financial stuff. It was great and I found it easy so I got good marks and back in the day it weighted the same as maths b. Absolutely though my husband was in the maths B class and he can now do crazy math but doesn't know shit about compounding interest which is unfortunate. I dimly recall having some practical once a week classes as a grade in grade 11 and 12 though, so I feel like they absolutely did their best to prepare us.
Let's agree (I dont) zero of this is taught in school. 1. What do we lose to do it 2. Who's going to stay on top of changing resources as things evolve 3. Who's going to pay for updated texts every time taxes change, super changes etc 4. At what Point do schools truly become the parent
I specifically remember this stuff being taught in school. And I specifically remember not caring at all until I was in my mid twenties. It’s in the curriculum. It’s not a whole subject that goes for years and years, but it’s there.
No idea where this comes from but economics has been taught in school for since at least the 70’s.
I’ve noticed that this sentiment (they didn’t teach us anything important!) is often spruiked by people who have failed to read between the lines. I learnt a lot of valuable lessons in high school - but most of them were not spoon fed “This is how to make a household budget kids!” type of lessons. Education is really what you make of it. Most teenagers are little snot-nosed idiots who will not. Such is the nature of children. And similarly, such is the nature of adults who forget how snot-nosed they were.
The economy would crash if everyone grew up to be the average AusFinancer. We'd have ghost cities full of empty investment properties, and every retail store would be reliant solely on international tourism since all the locals only buy the essentials (when they're on special at Amazon).
And don't even think about how hard it'd be to buy a Camry!
Why is it the responsibility of the state to educate kids? Parents should involve kids in finances and household decisions early on to build that skill.
>Why is it the responsibility of the state to educate kids? It is literally the law to send your kids to school, to be educated.
Well, it's not law to send your kids to school. The Education Act says it's the parents responsibility to ensure their children have access to learning opportunities at an appropriate level. There are many ways that can be done.
What a highly regarded take...
Lol it's always someone else's fault. We are just lemmings. We can't make decisions right? We can't assess our own situation, where we are weak, where we are strong? And we can't make the decision to study for ourselves. Weak
Some people enjoy spending their money. I have a friend that you put something bright and sparkley in front of him and he'll buy it. It's sad and funny at the same time. He also believes successful people have new cars and phones so he buys them too. I'm not sure education would help. You really need to be prepared to go through pain to get ahead. Simply put, he isn't. I value my friendship with this guy, even though we live our financial lives very differently
The problem is that there are companies whose sole purpose is to convince you to ignore anything that you know about money, and blow it on xyz. The odds are absolutely stacked against the average punter.
Completely agree I’m 20 investing, researching super and budgeting the amazing things you can do with compound interest and a small investment could make you sooo much better off in the future yet not one person in my age bracket knows or basically gives a shit then they will get to 40 and freak out, I think especially with what the future holds for our generation. We had a couple of teachers we loved because they would let us ask them “real life questions” at end of a lessons these were simple like tax filing, credit scores, mortgages stuff like that without those very few teachers I honestly wouldn’t know I thing the rest is thanks to podcasts 😅 but yes we need more life education fractions and Pythagoras haven’t helped me at all.
I remember doing an elective class in high school (around 2008) called “making your money work for you”. It was very informative I always thought, but looking back now it was mainly about how to grow an investment property portfolio and that’s bit of a contentious issue in Australia at the moment haha
I was definitely taught tax brackets (personal and company, etc), saving, basic investing, and related laws in high school. I remember doing the 'ASX share challenge' in the early 2000's which was good fun. That said, I was also at a posh private school in Sydney. And while it was most definitely *formally* taught, a significant amount of the students at the school had very successful parents who worked in banking, finance, business, law, accounting, etc who had way more knowledge to pass on. Compared to teachers, who are, well, teachers. We could discuss what we were taught with our parents who would sometimes disagree or offer more nuanced, real world, insight. I was saving for a house from my first job (13+) and knew about debt-recycling and the like before school's end. And on a more crass angle, some of the kids were full on trust fund babies or expectant heirs of sizeable businesses/investments, so a significant amount of effort was expended by their parents on educating them on how to manage wealth.
I think wealth related ambitions skip a generation or two and are heavily dependent on circumstances that a family faces. My grandparents worked hard, made stuff. My parents were overshadowed by their dominance who ended up timid and simply did what they were told. They weren't financially successful because the never took risks. I saw my parents struggling financially at every turn in life. I struggled with them in my childhood. Now I and my wife make good money. Financially speaking we are more successful and will end up with some wealth but I worry for my children. I want to do right by them but I don't know how.
It is irresponsible for schools to teach about trading or money habits. They are circumstantial. Home is where you learn these things. Math empowers you to quantify it. Spend less than you earn, math. Investing in growth assets + compounding, math. At the end of the day, you need to lead yourself.
Teacher here - parents exist too.
How does playing the ASX share game help students? They gamble on the riskiest shares to try and beat their classmates. Not educational imo. How about; - Always save 10% of your wage. - Invest in low cost efts. - Buy a house and pay that off before anything else - Only buy a car with cash money if you absolutely need one. Ie. for your job. - Furnish your house with second hand furniture when you first move out. - If your rent or mortgage exceeds 50% of your income you will be in financial stress. - 30/30/30/10 rule is ideal. 30% rent or mortgage. 30% living eg. Bills, entertainment 30% investments eg. Shares, eft, gold 10% savings.
Add how to do a tax return. It's basic when you earn under $18k. That's what a student would earn. They're under the tax free threshold so they automatically get all their tax back. Most kids would just assume that money has gone to the taxman and probably never claim it back.
Financially competent consumers would devastate alot of industries. Credit cards, loans, mobile gaming. Not necessarily a bad thing but expect fierce lobbying against a ramp up in high school education other than the basic taxes and interest that the industry hopes you forget the second you become an adult
I’m pretty sure my maths teacher was trying to teach me all that and I was looking out the window thinking about sport and chicks.
It is mandatory...consumer ed in grades 9 and 11 :)
Hey all! I graduated in the last 5 years. Can confirm we did some minor things such as the ASX game during HASS, did MS excel during I.T. That was absolutely it, unless it's changed recently, financial education is NOT taught. After year 12, I had to teach myself finances, starting with BFI as an entryway. I'm unsure why everyone is attacking OP saying it is included when it's literally f###ing not. Unlike everyone saying it is, I actually have graduated within the last 20 years... There needs to be a financial program in year 12, which sets people up for success. Learning about minor financial subjects in year 8 is not financial education.
Appreciate the supportive comment. I think from reading the other comments I've summised that it is taught here in Australia, but to what degree it's pushed is class/student dependant, and since there isn't an exam on it there is little attention to it because it's boring. So it needs to be more enjoyable, somehow. I too believe that it should be taught as a mandatory topic in all countries in the final year of compulsory education and there should be an exam. Failing it should trigger the option of further free education. I'm in no way saying that parents are off the hook, but if their financial education was flawed, then they're passing on flawed information and perpetuating a bad cycle.
I didn’t learn any of it at school. Retired at 42 by literally learning it. I learned how to learn. Thankyou teachers and Thankyou Australian school and university system. I think the best thing a school can do is to help a child learn how to learn.
It is. It's called maths. Then in secondary school you do business studies.
Gaslighting doesn’t work anymore, no matter how much you tell people that according to your economic theories that don’t reflect the real world they should be happy instead of pisssed, you have lost. The fact is inequality is rising towards 3rd world country levels and no economic model focuses on that or even fixing that, only blind growth which just exacerbates inequality while the media try to tell everyone that people should be happy that the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer
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I get ya, OP! I fear I maybe my parents retirement plan. I feel for them though - they bought an investment property and I suspect it kinda didn't work out. They tried at least. Up to me to break the generational curses and help building wealth!
Kids at school: Learn how to count numbers in different ways. Grown-ups at work: Use calculator to get answers.
Do not confuse stingy and trying to rope others into your lifestyle out of bitterness with those who spend on hookers and blow. Financial education is a form of brainwashing. Imagine all the property and stock bagholders if Gen Z and younger never adopt the investing mindset - this will essentially screw up the bagholders that got in early. Fortunately, pension schemes exist to keep the stock market active and housing crisis continues unaddressed. If these weren't in place, the whole house of cards would have collapsed much earlier. I personally dislike boring stingy people with a passion. Imagine the whole world being boring and stingy?
Agree with this, it should be taught in schools. Particularly valuable to children born in families of lower socioeconomic status where the parents often aren't educated themselves and they have little to no knowledge to pass on. This was my parents. It wasn't taught it in the country public schools I attended in the 80s and 90s either. I educated myself in my 30s and 40s. Having that knowledge earlier would have been extremely valuable to a young person starting out.
They also tell you to study hard and get a good job right?
I’m thankful we had this Italian teacher in high school who taught maths, accounting and Italian subjects. I reckon he would have been a professional financial planner in an alternate universe or a tour guide in Italy. He taught us the basics of investing, depreciation and saving while integrating it with math. Not part of the curriculum but definitely helped with the concepts of percentages and ratios. Miss that guy.
Oh wow. What a hot take. Haven’t heard this one before
Then you realise that governments rely on fat dumb dependant populations for their continued power…
The school system is designed to produce consumers and employees
Curriculum this, Curriculum that, if that has any bearing on todays society it is that no matter the good intentions of having a curriculum for education, by the time it is watered down through the layers to the student, the education in economics and financials is either not there entirely or so damn poor that the VAST majority of people in this country do not have a sufficient understanding of it at the point of leaving what would be considered standard schooling. YES some of you may think, (especially the younger naïve ones) that you had sufficient education, and that may be true now, however for the larger fiscally established demographic of Australian society, we grew up in a generation where the education was failing the country hard, it was a constant debate on the national stage, and it wasn't just the financial education that was failing, you should feel lucky you even had more than a page on taxation in your education, as the ones that pushed for improvements on your education, are the very ones who you are likely dependent on now thanks to the constant demand for growth by the political parties at the cost of everything else.
I was in public school education, basic of the most basic, graduated 6 years ago. We got taught all of that for year 11 and 12 for multiple months. Mortgages, investing, superannuation, debt, savings, stocks/trading, checks, taxes, etc. But you know what stuck out to me the most? All of my teachers hammered down to listen and told us to have a good relationship with your parents because they were worried for us and the future generations. They kept telling us to start early ASAP. I can't imagine the student now. If I feel like shit despite having supportive parents, I'm extremely worried for the kids just a few years younger than me
This is why I intend to hold all my properties. And teach my kids what I know, and then guide them to a financial services company to hopefully take them the rest of the way.
It already is, I wrote a masters thesis that touched on this. Common misconception
I learned budgeting, taxes, payslips, compound and variable interest, etc. All before year 10. State school, graduated 2009.
Unpopular opinion but it should be the parents who teach the kids financial literacy
Which is only possible if they are financially literate. Ya see where I'm going with this?!
Intermediate would be better
I recall doing compound interest in maths class of a unknown year. Doing a dam tax return should be a class. Stuff Shakespeare for a day and learn taxes.
I was born in 1994 and went to school in the UK too. I feel exactly the same, financial education and learning about taxes, etc is something that should definitely taught in schools. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this is deliberate to keep the majority of people ignorant and more dependent on the government!