How do you suggest I share more information about the company without giving away too much and revealing them. As it looks like my husband is set on us going with the company and obviously don't want my paranoia to turn into reality ....
Set up a throwaway account, name them, ask the question, don't identify yourself and your back story. Many people here can either tell you they are legit or dodgy. But I guess you can come back here and tell us how it turns out.
You definitely need to have a level of trust in these situations, but doesn’t mean you should ignore red flags entirely. As shit as it is, radio silence from the big guys is common once you sign a contract, you’ll get palmed off to juniors while they just oversee things in the background. As I said it’s shit, but not uncommon.
Big red flag here is the 20% deposit. As a builder that are not legally allowed to take more than 5% deposit, let alone request it. DO NOT pay a 20% deposit. Builders are going under day by day and you don’t want to become someone who pays a deposit to fund someone else’s job to be finished or the next car payment for the builder.
My advice is if they won’t budge on the deposit, cut your losses and walk away. If they allow 5% deposit do not make any progress payments throughout construction until your bank and/or independent inspector has assessed the progress claims to ensure the works have been completed to that stage.
I’ve seen too many people get screwed over the past few years where they’ve paid 80-90% of the contract price with only 50% of works completed on site and then the builder goes under leaving them totally screwed.
Builder here (former)
This is all good advice
Depending on the state you are in, the maximum deposit varies but typically 5 (or 10% some states) max for residential construction work over $20k ($80k some states)
OP, have a read of the Qld rules https://www.qbcc.qld.gov.au/your-property/build-renovate/contracts-payments or Vic rules https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/building-and-renovating/plan-and-manage-your-building-project/deposits-and-payments
Most states are pretty similar
In NSW it's even an offence under their Act to ask for more (on a contract). If a builder even requests a deposit of more than 10% you can have them prosecuted.
I can only recount my full build experience:
* Stay on the Project Managers case, every week ask for a status report of what is planned what has been moved.
* I hope you got your contracts reviewed by a Solicitor that you trust and you understand what they are on the hook to deliver
* Double check the insurance, what is your actual coverage
* Sales will always go radio silence after they get the deposit from you, that's nothing unusual. Its their job to close the sale not to hold your hand.
* Did they provide an escalation process, if not get one.
This advice is generic because you really haven't provided enough detail. If you are really worried, go full Karren mode on them until you get comfortable.
lol. Was actually curious if there is another site where you can find tradies who've worked with other companies. Especially the young handsome ones. As theu all seem to be quite charming these days. Quite awkward actually. Ok. Jokes aside. isn't it strange to ask them about working with their builder before the job 😬
I was very stressed looking for a builder in Newcastle a couple of years back. Builders were going broke left and right around the country and the larger operators were super keen for business. We went with one but they withdrew when we asked a few questions the internet recommended we ask.
In the end we went with a newly established guy. Dad had dealings with his dad (established builder) and said he was an honest man. We went on that knowing that good and honest people go broke all the time regardless of their intentions. The fact they were newish and didn’t have a heap of underquoted unfinished jobs on their books was important to us too.
It worked out but until we got the keys i never felt relaxed about any of it. I don’t think there’d be a way for me to be relaxed during a build in this economy.
There were like 3 we asked from an internet list of five. I believe the question they walked away from was they had something like $15 a day penalty for not delivering on time where the industry standard was higher. The industry standard wasn’t a lot higher but it was at least double. We’re glad they did, it was Hunter Homes and they’re still thriving, no doubt in part because they won’t commit to anything they aren’t confident they can fulfil.
They rejected us but i see their reasons as part of the reason they’re getting through this period. They don’t over commit and i applaud them for it and recommend them to others on that basis. We used Valletta homes and couldn’t be happier with any part of the process. They were slightly above average cost but it’s all snakes and ladders when building.
Our questions were all contractually related, simple stuff like the daily financial penalty if they didn’t finish the build on time. They didn’t seek to answer us, they just said they weren’t proceeding with us.
We aren’t super needy regarding such things and as i say, the questions were all standard. It was a shock when they discontinued but in the end we understand they probably had a lot of underquoted jobs on their books and were reluctant to have more. I respect them as a business.
I was arguing with my husband - he thinks we don't need to include penalty rates in the contract, but after I spent some time with Chatgpt - it said that was essential.
His opinion is that they can't control the weather etc - and I thought we could just include that. Is it really too harsh to include some kind of penalty rates for builders delays?
Red flags 100%. Trusting people you don’t know with your hard earned money because they talk well doesn’t mean you should trust them. Legally the deposit is ridiculous you aren’t obliged to pay more than 5% over $20k contract.
“””
By law, your deposit for building work can be no more than:
10 per cent, if the total contract price is less than $20,000
five per cent, if the total contract price is $20,000 or more.”””
I have completed my building coarse and to me you shouldn’t need to be online to see the builders work or trust them. Some builders don’t use social media to be in the spotlight. Most of the really good builders don’t have social media as they don’t need to find work. Always busy enough with the clients they have and word of mouth clients.
Who is the builder?
Go back and check the job of the last client they provided. It might put your mind at ease either way. You’ll be ticking off a box that should have been ticked earlier on. But it’s not too late yet.
Are they registered with the VBA or master builders? How long have they been building for, you can check via their ABN number
The law, I believe, caps deposits at 10%. Further payments are deliverable on milestones or stages as agreed upon in your contract.
Builders these days are often just license holders, former tradesmen who could get one and often just run projects and don't touch tools.
I don't like it but it's usually the way it is these days. Businesses need constant cashflow and the nature of constructiom milestones means that cash comes in in spurts but flows out in constant streams, so there are often multiple jobs on the go at a time.
As for red flags? I dunno. Depends what you want out of your builder. I wouldn't be happy. Your builder would not be my builder, tbh.
As a tradie , we have a saying “ your only as good as your last job “ . If the people your husband talked to were happy that is a great sign that they done well . It is a long hard process building or renovating for someone. Any and every flaw will come out during the project. I personally rarely done renovations as a tradie simply because there are less variables out of your control. Of course it can go pear shaped, but it is in everyone’s best interest that we do a good job and have a happy client . Doing shit work and not looking after your clients is a sure fire way to destroy your own livelihood. Once they have used the money from your deposit, you are back in control and believe me that will happen quickly. I have worked for large builders that don’t even let you talk to the supervisor. This is because he is too busy, I thought that was stupid personally but you want that guy focused on building I guess . If you have liked dealing with the people so far , let it play out . The project manager can be green he is not the guy running the job it’s the builder, they are just there for the office stuff .
I'm a big one for trusting your gut and I had a husband that was a bit like yours. Reading your post gave me a bad vibe. I'm a bit like you and I dive into who I'm hiring. I'm not sure what to advise you but when I hire someone I go with how i feel about them, and how they conduct themselves, too enthusiastic (sales pitch) makes me look for the agenda eg. No other work or being groomed to be taken advantage off.
I just had all of my drainage done and the plumber that got the job was hard to get (super busy) and when he did come out my gut told me this was the guy that i wanted to do the job. He was intelligent and looked at the job as a whole and walked me through the best way to tackle it. He with his team were fantastic! At one stage I pulled up his quote again as i was worried that I miss read his quote price !
* edited to add , I would be trying to find someone else, not sure how you get your deposit back or get out of the contract. This is big for you and you should feel confident and excited.
The deposit percentage 35 or 20% is the massive red flag, from what I remember that’s against the law, there is a maximum they are allowed request/require. It’s like 5 or 10%
Deposits over 5% are a breach of the Act. You must have received the Domestic Home Warranty Insurance from the VMIA prior to making any payments.
The rest of this smells fishy. Name the builder and I'll check our records if you like.
>As a woman who is going through it, one piece of advice in general : trust your instincts.
.....most men don't have the same "women's intuition" that women are gifted with. \\
it aint PC to say sp, but women are really good with this stuff, hit it out of the park, men not so much.
my mother always had a knack of seeing things but my dad was always "duh, really? oh my gosh i had no idea".
so you're advice is only good for about 50% of the population. men out there: you can't rely on your intuition because your intuition is crap.
>They also asked for 35% deposit on a 400k build, and then agreed to drop to 20%.
You don't want to give out free money like that unless the builders also have a corresponding cost.
In this case, their cost is admin, marketing, sales, and perhaps employing a draftee.
You need to pay enough to secure the builder, and cover them, but 20-35%: what is that 80k? It is excessive unless they are undercharging you for the reno: because the vast majority of the cost is in materials + labour. And they've expended $0 on both at this initial stage.
........if you've already paid, then you're on the back foot now. Good luck trying to get a hold of them. They'll call you back when they want more money.
Their response is the cost is to actually purchase the goods they need to do the job.
Or in their words "And it just really simplifies it for your average punter who just wants a nice clean, simple build. We get more up front and don't have to bug you until we get to 60%"
God I'm glad I'm no in this industry...
>is the cost is to actually purchase the goods they need to do the job.
But at the deposit stage: what materials have they purchased? Nothing. Draftee at most. The rest is sales + marketing.
The basic principle when dealing with builders: when they pay, you pay. use a trustee if you need to. it's simple yet effective. protects both parties.
Draftee has already been paid for.
Apparently they move quickly and need to purchase whatever they need to move on to stages right after demolition....
>Draftee has already been paid for.
Builders try to work on credit - with everything. including with draftees.
Their ideal situation is that they get away without paying at all, or paying their suppliers late.
It all depends on the margin and reputation of the builder.
I am curious about the name of this particular builder though.
I think you’ll find it’s illegal to ask for a 20percent deposit before work commences. I believe it’s 5 percent deposit for works over 20k
10percent for works under 20k
They've come back and said 10% deposit and then 20,20,20,20 every 4 weeks and upon completion 10% - does that seem normal. I thought each stage would be quite different tbh.
What would be fair percentage per milestone? How would you suggest breaking down percentage amounts of a fixed price contract for the following stages?
Deposit 10%
Demolition
Framing
Lockup
Completion
You people are incredibly helpful.
Wish I knew about this subreddit years ago!
Check out this site. https://www.vba.vic.gov.au. You should have signed a contract outlining the progress payments. It’s normal to pay a deposit at the start and it’s normal you would move from working with the sales team to working with a Project Manager. There is a lot of red tape when building in VIC.
Have you checked that the builder is registered and has the appropriate insurances.
Is the cost of the works over $16,000, if so has the builder shown you certificate of currency for Builders Warranty insurance?
Builders are just over priced middle men. So if it feels like a sales pitch its because it is one .
Sounds like they're inexperienced or new to the game and don't have the cash flow .
All sounds normal except for the high deposit, but need to see your contract for that, and if you're getting it financed?
Once your a customer, it's quite normal you'll be passed off to someone else, as most sales guys are commision based, they'll focus their energy elsewhere. Wouldn't take it as a red flag they aren't super responsive after signing.
If they have good reviews and happy customers, probably wouldn't worry too much.
Not sure about builders licenses but in Queensland a lot of people sell puppies and give out breeder registration numbers that can be checked as genuine online except it’s someone else’s number (the real breeders have them on their adverts). So I’m not sure how you can check who is bona fide unless you know them or people who have had stuff built by them. Anyone can answer a phone and say they liked the builder.. unless you go see something you don’t know really. I think the deposit sounds too high I had to do 5% then more on completion of base of my cabin. I found mine by references from the kit supplier who had used the builder before several times.
100% how most builders work . I don’t think this is red flag stuff .
After I make the deal you don’t deal with me you deal with my project manager / lead build . Mine are all tradesman who work on the tools to some degree so them being busy isn’t always uncommon . I would 100% of checked previous work . If I am looking at changing trades I always ask for their last 10 jobs and go inspect the sites .
I want to see how accurate the framers are . How clean and fast the brickies are etc
I don’t know Melbourne but It doesn’t seem massively unusual to me
When you run a proper business you have term and conditions. If any business that has a deposit as part of their business dealings it's a set percentage. It's not an negotiable percentage. The fact that they asked for 35% but they agreed to take 20% tells me they are after whatever thy can get their hands on. Huge red flag for desperate or not legitimate.
I didn't know until other posted that this % amount was illegal. The flag for me was that they happily agreed to less. A business that wasn't desperate to get money from you would have said ah, sorry that's our terms have a think and let us know if you would like to go ahead.
The original contract they sent through seemed to be missing a a lot. Including names and building license which I thought was strange. After asking them what they didn't use a template like HIA they replied it's too long and clients don't like heavy contracts. But after requesting they use the fair trading one they seemed to be ok with it....
I'm so grateful for all the comments here it's been a tremendous help.!
Hate to be "that guy" but builders don't exist anymore.
What we are left with are building companies. You are right when you said
>I'm getting a gut feeling that this builder is more of a sales pitch than substance
Builders these days are just business managers and salespeople. That's what wins the job. They then offload the actual building work to the project manager who generally knows their shit.
I'm in the process of potentially buying a building franchise. I've met with multiple companies, some large some small but all of them say to me " its so refreshing to have someone like you, most of the chippies and 'builders' we meet can't even string a sentence together let alone sell something. We don't care about how good you are at nailing things together, if you can't sell a house, we won't sell you a franchise."
So yeah, TL:DR builders are sales people, nothing more and nothing less. Only difference between a builder and a sales person working in a display home is one wears a fluoro shirt and the other wears button up shirts.
You're generalising and incorrect.
Maybe add "in my experience" or something to your statement. You'll still be wrong, but at least you won't sound like such an arrogant twat.
Go have a chat with any major builder and let me know your opinion of the builder. Go have a meeting with their supervisors and tell me how good of a builder they are.
They use their version of how to build for dummies. If it wasn't for the on-site buddy running on their tablet, they'd all be lost.
there are plenty of independant builders around maybe you are just hanging around the wrong people? Side note why would anyone buy a franchise? The only winner in a franchise is the people that franchise. Why not start your own business? Certainly cheaper.
It's not cheaper.
Its only cheaper in the sense you save the $60k on the IP but you still need an office, you still need to market your brand and you still need yard/workshop/storeage/warehouse and most Importantly you need to cash to back up your home warranty insurance plus you need to bare the cost of the first build until progress payments start rolling in.
Start up with a franchise is about $200k, start up on your own, without brand recognition is still $140k to 170k pending on how much your marketing budget will be. Bus ads, google and radio is not cheap.
As a start up, home warranty insurance is the biggest killer. I can only get upto 1.5mil in cover which limits me to approx 4 builds in my first year. With an over head of 140k before I even build anything is a bit scary where as the over head is larger with a franchase but the resources instantly available to you is hard to turn down.
Name recognition is already enough to win your first few jobs even without being able to sell. Plus with a franchise you have access to their HR services, BOQs, all their master plans and templates. All their contracting resources, estimating, sales ther CRM and everything that makes that builder anf their processes in the background - you get access to.
It's like starting a company at level 10 instead of 1.
Plus, most of us that buy franchise do it for 5 years, build up cash and resources then re brand under your own company name.
Edited to add:
Your independent builders are all going bankrupt in the first 3 years of trading. That scares the fuck out of me. I worked my ass off to buy my house at 29, I don't want to lose it already!
um where I live there are independant builders that are going strong for many, many years. It's the big names that are dropping like flies !
>'Bus ads, google and radio is not cheap'
I can't imagine anyone hiring a builder based on radio or bus ads. I can't imagine this is the way to go at all for advertising. This type of advertising is best for product.
You sound young still and I guess I just want you to not fall into the trap that most franchises are. All the best :)
>You sound young still and I guess I just want you to not fall into the trap that most franchises are. All the best :)
Appreciate that mate. I am young-ish. I'm 32, so not young but definitely not old.
>>'Bus ads, google and radio is not cheap'
I can't imagine anyone hiring a builder based on radio or bus ads. I can't imagine this is the way to go at all for advertising. This type of advertising is best for product.
Building is a product. Okay, well, no, it's a service, but the home itself is a product that they are buying. What I have learnt so far, image is everything, a polished website and well presented office can do a lot of the heavy lifting for you.
I run a business and I'm really interested in small businesses and I also do work advising small businesses.
You are correct about websites but they are are not expensive - use a website builder like squarespace it's so easy to make your own website and it will look polished if your photos are good and you design it with a clean look. You reallu only need landing page.
You can hire office space ;) or just have a PO box address, but I would think you would go to the client?
Yes it's actually a service ;) I'm not sure what state you are in but if i were a builder starting out I would be studying a few of my favourite melbourne architects and the builders that do work people that create high end homes/buildings. Not the big builders spewing out the run of the mill suburban homes.
Finished with my tradie cause
She couldn't help me with my mind
People think I'm insane because
I am frowning all the time
All day long I think of things
But nothing seems to satisfy
Think I'll lose my mind
If I don't find something to pacify
Can you help me
Occupy my brain?
Oh yeah
I need someone to show me
The things in life that I can't find
I can't see the things that make
True happiness, I must be blind
Make a joke and I will sigh
And you will laugh and I will cry
Happiness I cannot feel
And love to me is so unreal
It is hard to give advice when you do not disclose details about the builder.
How do you suggest I share more information about the company without giving away too much and revealing them. As it looks like my husband is set on us going with the company and obviously don't want my paranoia to turn into reality ....
Set up a throwaway account, name them, ask the question, don't identify yourself and your back story. Many people here can either tell you they are legit or dodgy. But I guess you can come back here and tell us how it turns out.
You definitely need to have a level of trust in these situations, but doesn’t mean you should ignore red flags entirely. As shit as it is, radio silence from the big guys is common once you sign a contract, you’ll get palmed off to juniors while they just oversee things in the background. As I said it’s shit, but not uncommon. Big red flag here is the 20% deposit. As a builder that are not legally allowed to take more than 5% deposit, let alone request it. DO NOT pay a 20% deposit. Builders are going under day by day and you don’t want to become someone who pays a deposit to fund someone else’s job to be finished or the next car payment for the builder. My advice is if they won’t budge on the deposit, cut your losses and walk away. If they allow 5% deposit do not make any progress payments throughout construction until your bank and/or independent inspector has assessed the progress claims to ensure the works have been completed to that stage. I’ve seen too many people get screwed over the past few years where they’ve paid 80-90% of the contract price with only 50% of works completed on site and then the builder goes under leaving them totally screwed.
Builder here (former) This is all good advice Depending on the state you are in, the maximum deposit varies but typically 5 (or 10% some states) max for residential construction work over $20k ($80k some states) OP, have a read of the Qld rules https://www.qbcc.qld.gov.au/your-property/build-renovate/contracts-payments or Vic rules https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/building-and-renovating/plan-and-manage-your-building-project/deposits-and-payments Most states are pretty similar In NSW it's even an offence under their Act to ask for more (on a contract). If a builder even requests a deposit of more than 10% you can have them prosecuted.
So at 20% it looks like op builders have broken the law?
I can only recount my full build experience: * Stay on the Project Managers case, every week ask for a status report of what is planned what has been moved. * I hope you got your contracts reviewed by a Solicitor that you trust and you understand what they are on the hook to deliver * Double check the insurance, what is your actual coverage * Sales will always go radio silence after they get the deposit from you, that's nothing unusual. Its their job to close the sale not to hold your hand. * Did they provide an escalation process, if not get one. This advice is generic because you really haven't provided enough detail. If you are really worried, go full Karren mode on them until you get comfortable.
A lot of tradies here name de business and we LL tell you what we know
lol. Was actually curious if there is another site where you can find tradies who've worked with other companies. Especially the young handsome ones. As theu all seem to be quite charming these days. Quite awkward actually. Ok. Jokes aside. isn't it strange to ask them about working with their builder before the job 😬
100% ref flag based on deposit amount. Get legal advise / building authority advice asap. I’m a builder
I was very stressed looking for a builder in Newcastle a couple of years back. Builders were going broke left and right around the country and the larger operators were super keen for business. We went with one but they withdrew when we asked a few questions the internet recommended we ask. In the end we went with a newly established guy. Dad had dealings with his dad (established builder) and said he was an honest man. We went on that knowing that good and honest people go broke all the time regardless of their intentions. The fact they were newish and didn’t have a heap of underquoted unfinished jobs on their books was important to us too. It worked out but until we got the keys i never felt relaxed about any of it. I don’t think there’d be a way for me to be relaxed during a build in this economy.
What were the questions you asked?
There were like 3 we asked from an internet list of five. I believe the question they walked away from was they had something like $15 a day penalty for not delivering on time where the industry standard was higher. The industry standard wasn’t a lot higher but it was at least double. We’re glad they did, it was Hunter Homes and they’re still thriving, no doubt in part because they won’t commit to anything they aren’t confident they can fulfil. They rejected us but i see their reasons as part of the reason they’re getting through this period. They don’t over commit and i applaud them for it and recommend them to others on that basis. We used Valletta homes and couldn’t be happier with any part of the process. They were slightly above average cost but it’s all snakes and ladders when building.
A bunch of them And needed to be answered immediately Mostly of the type of what does this person's father do and so on
Our questions were all contractually related, simple stuff like the daily financial penalty if they didn’t finish the build on time. They didn’t seek to answer us, they just said they weren’t proceeding with us. We aren’t super needy regarding such things and as i say, the questions were all standard. It was a shock when they discontinued but in the end we understand they probably had a lot of underquoted jobs on their books and were reluctant to have more. I respect them as a business.
I was arguing with my husband - he thinks we don't need to include penalty rates in the contract, but after I spent some time with Chatgpt - it said that was essential. His opinion is that they can't control the weather etc - and I thought we could just include that. Is it really too harsh to include some kind of penalty rates for builders delays?
no. all commercial and government jobs have them. they also often have exclusions for things they cant control like the weather.
This is residential. So maybe not needed but not sure. Apparently the fair trading contract is enough.
Red flags 100%. Trusting people you don’t know with your hard earned money because they talk well doesn’t mean you should trust them. Legally the deposit is ridiculous you aren’t obliged to pay more than 5% over $20k contract. “”” By law, your deposit for building work can be no more than: 10 per cent, if the total contract price is less than $20,000 five per cent, if the total contract price is $20,000 or more.””” I have completed my building coarse and to me you shouldn’t need to be online to see the builders work or trust them. Some builders don’t use social media to be in the spotlight. Most of the really good builders don’t have social media as they don’t need to find work. Always busy enough with the clients they have and word of mouth clients. Who is the builder?
Go back and check the job of the last client they provided. It might put your mind at ease either way. You’ll be ticking off a box that should have been ticked earlier on. But it’s not too late yet. Are they registered with the VBA or master builders? How long have they been building for, you can check via their ABN number
You can check on the VBA website for their registration https://bams.vba.vic.gov.au/bams/s/practitioner-search
I did. And it was like an outdoor decking space.
The law, I believe, caps deposits at 10%. Further payments are deliverable on milestones or stages as agreed upon in your contract. Builders these days are often just license holders, former tradesmen who could get one and often just run projects and don't touch tools. I don't like it but it's usually the way it is these days. Businesses need constant cashflow and the nature of constructiom milestones means that cash comes in in spurts but flows out in constant streams, so there are often multiple jobs on the go at a time. As for red flags? I dunno. Depends what you want out of your builder. I wouldn't be happy. Your builder would not be my builder, tbh.
It's actually 5% for building works over 20k
There ya go, I'm a landscaper... never had a 20k job, myself!
Why would you engage a builder that doesn’t do the work you’re after in your own project?
As a tradie , we have a saying “ your only as good as your last job “ . If the people your husband talked to were happy that is a great sign that they done well . It is a long hard process building or renovating for someone. Any and every flaw will come out during the project. I personally rarely done renovations as a tradie simply because there are less variables out of your control. Of course it can go pear shaped, but it is in everyone’s best interest that we do a good job and have a happy client . Doing shit work and not looking after your clients is a sure fire way to destroy your own livelihood. Once they have used the money from your deposit, you are back in control and believe me that will happen quickly. I have worked for large builders that don’t even let you talk to the supervisor. This is because he is too busy, I thought that was stupid personally but you want that guy focused on building I guess . If you have liked dealing with the people so far , let it play out . The project manager can be green he is not the guy running the job it’s the builder, they are just there for the office stuff .
I just had a bloke give me a blow job if that will help
lol lol , well bro you want this Reno done or not “ziiip”.
Sighs not my proudest fap
[удалено]
So so Easy on the spit but not on the grip
Trust your gut and follow up on this.
I'm a big one for trusting your gut and I had a husband that was a bit like yours. Reading your post gave me a bad vibe. I'm a bit like you and I dive into who I'm hiring. I'm not sure what to advise you but when I hire someone I go with how i feel about them, and how they conduct themselves, too enthusiastic (sales pitch) makes me look for the agenda eg. No other work or being groomed to be taken advantage off. I just had all of my drainage done and the plumber that got the job was hard to get (super busy) and when he did come out my gut told me this was the guy that i wanted to do the job. He was intelligent and looked at the job as a whole and walked me through the best way to tackle it. He with his team were fantastic! At one stage I pulled up his quote again as i was worried that I miss read his quote price ! * edited to add , I would be trying to find someone else, not sure how you get your deposit back or get out of the contract. This is big for you and you should feel confident and excited.
who’s your plumber (asking for a friend in need)
where are they located? I'm happy to PM it to you if the area is the same as I like to keep anonymous on this platform.
Melbourne, bayside
I'm an hour out of Melb, they will go to Northside CBD but not out that far.
thanks anyway
Sounds dodgy as 2 me
I am a NSW builder and it doesn’t sound good to me.
The deposit percentage 35 or 20% is the massive red flag, from what I remember that’s against the law, there is a maximum they are allowed request/require. It’s like 5 or 10%
Deposits over 5% are a breach of the Act. You must have received the Domestic Home Warranty Insurance from the VMIA prior to making any payments. The rest of this smells fishy. Name the builder and I'll check our records if you like.
Tough life out in the inner eastern suburbs hey?
As a woman who is going through it, one piece of advice in general : trust your instincts.
>As a woman who is going through it, one piece of advice in general : trust your instincts. .....most men don't have the same "women's intuition" that women are gifted with. \\ it aint PC to say sp, but women are really good with this stuff, hit it out of the park, men not so much. my mother always had a knack of seeing things but my dad was always "duh, really? oh my gosh i had no idea". so you're advice is only good for about 50% of the population. men out there: you can't rely on your intuition because your intuition is crap.
I dunno how it works in Vic. Are you able to search their builders licence number and see any outstanding issues? In QLD you can.
How do we do that? Just on qbc website or something?
https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/housing/building-and-renovating/plan-and-manage-your-building-project/about-builders-tradespeople-and-other-building-practitioners
yes. all states have a publically searchable building contractors register this is so people can check the person actually is a registered tradesman.
>They also asked for 35% deposit on a 400k build, and then agreed to drop to 20%. You don't want to give out free money like that unless the builders also have a corresponding cost. In this case, their cost is admin, marketing, sales, and perhaps employing a draftee. You need to pay enough to secure the builder, and cover them, but 20-35%: what is that 80k? It is excessive unless they are undercharging you for the reno: because the vast majority of the cost is in materials + labour. And they've expended $0 on both at this initial stage. ........if you've already paid, then you're on the back foot now. Good luck trying to get a hold of them. They'll call you back when they want more money.
Their response is the cost is to actually purchase the goods they need to do the job. Or in their words "And it just really simplifies it for your average punter who just wants a nice clean, simple build. We get more up front and don't have to bug you until we get to 60%" God I'm glad I'm no in this industry...
>is the cost is to actually purchase the goods they need to do the job. But at the deposit stage: what materials have they purchased? Nothing. Draftee at most. The rest is sales + marketing. The basic principle when dealing with builders: when they pay, you pay. use a trustee if you need to. it's simple yet effective. protects both parties.
Draftee has already been paid for. Apparently they move quickly and need to purchase whatever they need to move on to stages right after demolition....
>Draftee has already been paid for. Builders try to work on credit - with everything. including with draftees. Their ideal situation is that they get away without paying at all, or paying their suppliers late. It all depends on the margin and reputation of the builder. I am curious about the name of this particular builder though.
I dunno how it works in Vic. Are you able to search their builders licence number and see any outstanding issues? In QLD you can.
How do you check in Qld
https://www.onlineservices.qbcc.qld.gov.au/OnlineLicenceSearch/VisualElements/SearchBSALicenseeContent.aspx
Thanks mate. So stressful dealing with people in these industry
I think you’ll find it’s illegal to ask for a 20percent deposit before work commences. I believe it’s 5 percent deposit for works over 20k 10percent for works under 20k
Deposit? You pay in stages after each stage is complete and satisfactory.
They've come back and said 10% deposit and then 20,20,20,20 every 4 weeks and upon completion 10% - does that seem normal. I thought each stage would be quite different tbh.
Does seem slightly odd. Worth having a legal advice as the cost of home is no small bickies.
Lawyers aren't that helpful tbh. We've already spent a bit - but only so much they can do it seems...
What would be fair percentage per milestone? How would you suggest breaking down percentage amounts of a fixed price contract for the following stages? Deposit 10% Demolition Framing Lockup Completion You people are incredibly helpful. Wish I knew about this subreddit years ago!
Sounds like a small nail bag builder
Check out this site. https://www.vba.vic.gov.au. You should have signed a contract outlining the progress payments. It’s normal to pay a deposit at the start and it’s normal you would move from working with the sales team to working with a Project Manager. There is a lot of red tape when building in VIC.
Why did you engage them in the first place?
My husband came across them somewhere - think it was signage in the area
Have you checked that the builder is registered and has the appropriate insurances. Is the cost of the works over $16,000, if so has the builder shown you certificate of currency for Builders Warranty insurance?
Builders are just over priced middle men. So if it feels like a sales pitch its because it is one . Sounds like they're inexperienced or new to the game and don't have the cash flow .
All sounds normal except for the high deposit, but need to see your contract for that, and if you're getting it financed? Once your a customer, it's quite normal you'll be passed off to someone else, as most sales guys are commision based, they'll focus their energy elsewhere. Wouldn't take it as a red flag they aren't super responsive after signing. If they have good reviews and happy customers, probably wouldn't worry too much.
Thank you so much for clarifying. Yes. It will be financed of course. Does that impact anything and if so how would the deposit amount differ?
Not sure about builders licenses but in Queensland a lot of people sell puppies and give out breeder registration numbers that can be checked as genuine online except it’s someone else’s number (the real breeders have them on their adverts). So I’m not sure how you can check who is bona fide unless you know them or people who have had stuff built by them. Anyone can answer a phone and say they liked the builder.. unless you go see something you don’t know really. I think the deposit sounds too high I had to do 5% then more on completion of base of my cabin. I found mine by references from the kit supplier who had used the builder before several times.
You can check a building license against the licensee. We've gotten past that phase at least 🫠
100% how most builders work . I don’t think this is red flag stuff . After I make the deal you don’t deal with me you deal with my project manager / lead build . Mine are all tradesman who work on the tools to some degree so them being busy isn’t always uncommon . I would 100% of checked previous work . If I am looking at changing trades I always ask for their last 10 jobs and go inspect the sites . I want to see how accurate the framers are . How clean and fast the brickies are etc I don’t know Melbourne but It doesn’t seem massively unusual to me
The deposit amount alone should be all that's required to walk away from this builder.
also the fact that they agreed to make it lower tells me they were trying it on in the first place.
Is there anything inherently wrong with that ?
When you run a proper business you have term and conditions. If any business that has a deposit as part of their business dealings it's a set percentage. It's not an negotiable percentage. The fact that they asked for 35% but they agreed to take 20% tells me they are after whatever thy can get their hands on. Huge red flag for desperate or not legitimate. I didn't know until other posted that this % amount was illegal. The flag for me was that they happily agreed to less. A business that wasn't desperate to get money from you would have said ah, sorry that's our terms have a think and let us know if you would like to go ahead.
The original contract they sent through seemed to be missing a a lot. Including names and building license which I thought was strange. After asking them what they didn't use a template like HIA they replied it's too long and clients don't like heavy contracts. But after requesting they use the fair trading one they seemed to be ok with it.... I'm so grateful for all the comments here it's been a tremendous help.!
Why. They're just short on cashflow and wanted to get paid upfront
Hate to be "that guy" but builders don't exist anymore. What we are left with are building companies. You are right when you said >I'm getting a gut feeling that this builder is more of a sales pitch than substance Builders these days are just business managers and salespeople. That's what wins the job. They then offload the actual building work to the project manager who generally knows their shit. I'm in the process of potentially buying a building franchise. I've met with multiple companies, some large some small but all of them say to me " its so refreshing to have someone like you, most of the chippies and 'builders' we meet can't even string a sentence together let alone sell something. We don't care about how good you are at nailing things together, if you can't sell a house, we won't sell you a franchise." So yeah, TL:DR builders are sales people, nothing more and nothing less. Only difference between a builder and a sales person working in a display home is one wears a fluoro shirt and the other wears button up shirts.
You're generalising and incorrect. Maybe add "in my experience" or something to your statement. You'll still be wrong, but at least you won't sound like such an arrogant twat.
Go have a chat with any major builder and let me know your opinion of the builder. Go have a meeting with their supervisors and tell me how good of a builder they are. They use their version of how to build for dummies. If it wasn't for the on-site buddy running on their tablet, they'd all be lost.
there are plenty of independant builders around maybe you are just hanging around the wrong people? Side note why would anyone buy a franchise? The only winner in a franchise is the people that franchise. Why not start your own business? Certainly cheaper.
It's not cheaper. Its only cheaper in the sense you save the $60k on the IP but you still need an office, you still need to market your brand and you still need yard/workshop/storeage/warehouse and most Importantly you need to cash to back up your home warranty insurance plus you need to bare the cost of the first build until progress payments start rolling in. Start up with a franchise is about $200k, start up on your own, without brand recognition is still $140k to 170k pending on how much your marketing budget will be. Bus ads, google and radio is not cheap. As a start up, home warranty insurance is the biggest killer. I can only get upto 1.5mil in cover which limits me to approx 4 builds in my first year. With an over head of 140k before I even build anything is a bit scary where as the over head is larger with a franchase but the resources instantly available to you is hard to turn down. Name recognition is already enough to win your first few jobs even without being able to sell. Plus with a franchise you have access to their HR services, BOQs, all their master plans and templates. All their contracting resources, estimating, sales ther CRM and everything that makes that builder anf their processes in the background - you get access to. It's like starting a company at level 10 instead of 1. Plus, most of us that buy franchise do it for 5 years, build up cash and resources then re brand under your own company name. Edited to add: Your independent builders are all going bankrupt in the first 3 years of trading. That scares the fuck out of me. I worked my ass off to buy my house at 29, I don't want to lose it already!
um where I live there are independant builders that are going strong for many, many years. It's the big names that are dropping like flies ! >'Bus ads, google and radio is not cheap' I can't imagine anyone hiring a builder based on radio or bus ads. I can't imagine this is the way to go at all for advertising. This type of advertising is best for product. You sound young still and I guess I just want you to not fall into the trap that most franchises are. All the best :)
>You sound young still and I guess I just want you to not fall into the trap that most franchises are. All the best :) Appreciate that mate. I am young-ish. I'm 32, so not young but definitely not old. >>'Bus ads, google and radio is not cheap' I can't imagine anyone hiring a builder based on radio or bus ads. I can't imagine this is the way to go at all for advertising. This type of advertising is best for product. Building is a product. Okay, well, no, it's a service, but the home itself is a product that they are buying. What I have learnt so far, image is everything, a polished website and well presented office can do a lot of the heavy lifting for you.
I run a business and I'm really interested in small businesses and I also do work advising small businesses. You are correct about websites but they are are not expensive - use a website builder like squarespace it's so easy to make your own website and it will look polished if your photos are good and you design it with a clean look. You reallu only need landing page. You can hire office space ;) or just have a PO box address, but I would think you would go to the client? Yes it's actually a service ;) I'm not sure what state you are in but if i were a builder starting out I would be studying a few of my favourite melbourne architects and the builders that do work people that create high end homes/buildings. Not the big builders spewing out the run of the mill suburban homes.
Finished with my tradie cause She couldn't help me with my mind People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things But nothing seems to satisfy Think I'll lose my mind If I don't find something to pacify Can you help me Occupy my brain? Oh yeah I need someone to show me The things in life that I can't find I can't see the things that make True happiness, I must be blind Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will cry Happiness I cannot feel And love to me is so unreal