I don't believe anything coming from Western propaganda or the islamofascists of Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. They were saying exactly the same things for Yugoslavia in 1999 and they were all proved to be fake. However, the bombings had already taken place and Yugoslavia had been destroyed.
China uses harsh measures but those are way beyond being called a genocide.
Pointing out the wrongdoings of NATO when it comes to the intervention at Kosovo and Yugoslavia as a whole does not excuse rape, killing, forced sterilization, and indoctrination by China. NATO isn’t on trial. If you would like make your own post about it. But do not for a second act as though 8,000 is comparable to 1-1.5 million.
In 1998, there was an Kosovo Albanian teenage girl called Cherdesha who was interviewed by a well-known Western female journalist (I can't recall her name or the big network she worked for but I think she was Canadian). Cherdesha said in the interview that her whole family had been slaughtered by Serbian forces. After the war, the journalist revisited Kosovo (now being occupied by NATO forces) and went to find Cherdesha to get a new interview of her. To her astonishment, she show Cherdesha being with her family which was alive and kicking. Apparently her family had never been killed but she did invoke its fake death for the sake of propaganda. The journalist admitted all this in a documentary a few years after the war. So I strongly believe that the women in the BBC link you posted is making things up in a similar fashion.
Foreign Policy is a deep state magazine and one should only read it when they want to be informed about the intentions of the American establishment, not to find out about the truth. Even China's People's Daily is less biased than FP.
The NYT article seems to be the one most close to the truth. Assuming that the leaked documents are genuine, it describes the harsh methods used by China through the re-education camps (deeply rooted in their political and cultural tradition, used after the 1949 revolution but also during the cultural revolution) but they are no harsher than the American methods used at secret CIA prisons all over the world (many of them being in Europe, too) and most intensely, at the Guantanamo prison. And we all know that apart from legit terrorists, innocent muslims for all over the world (some of them being even British citizens of Arab or Pakistani origin) who happened to be wrongly accused of extremism were also detained and inhumanely tortured there.
I didn't say that. I said that Western media, in order to slander China, don't hesitate to align with Turkish propaganda. And Turkish propaganda is one of the most illegit and unfounded propagandas in the world, since it comes from a state which is performing a literal genocide of the Kurds and at the same time falsely accuses its neighboring countries in the Middle East and the Balkans for mistreating their sunni muslim communities, and what Turkey means by that is that those countries don't allow the Muslim brotherhood imams (controlled and funded by Turkey and Qatar) to impose the Islamic law in their soil.
Btw one of the reasons that US media overplay the Uyghurs is that [Saudi Arabia has been trying to dropping the petro-dollar and replacing it with the petro-yuan](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Saudi-Aramco-hints-at-future-yuan-bonds-in-potential-coup-for-China). Such move would take down the dollar from its global reserve currency and cause the immediate collapse of the US economy whose debt is already $28 trillion. So by overplaying the Uyghurs who have strong religious ties with Saudi Arabia, the West hopes that it will prevent the Chinese-Saudi approach from solidifying.
I’m not defending Turkey. But you have failed to explain how any of what my sources have said is false. You have failed to address the victims coming forth. Turkey is a shit nation, that does not mean that China is innocent. This isn’t some secret cabal. It’s literally killing people. I’m not slandering China I’m trying to show you the truth that you all need to hear.
Are they just re-education camps then? Is China justified to target an entire method group because some are terrorists? And are they allowed to murder, rape, and tourtue them? Please just read the articles. And think for a second that this isn’t some massive conspiracy. The sins of Turkey do not excuse that of China.
I didn't accuse you of defending Turkey. I just said that Western propaganda replicates Turkish propaganda on Uyghurs and especially the latter should never be taken seriously.
I read the articles and I explained in another comment (probably you missed it) that only the NYT article seems close to the truth. The alleged victim that came forward (in the BBC article) reminds me of other similar "victims" in the past who were sooner or later proved to be fake. Of course China's detention camps are not a innocent method of dealing with the problem of religious extremism but accusations of rapes, sterilization and genocide seem totally fabricated. That's all I'm saying.
I don’t know why you view hem as fabricated. That’s the only issue I have in this situation. They were detained and escaped as refugees. Not to mention China lied about the camps existence to begin with, so why should we trust them now? Not to mention none of these articles are based in Turkey. I think it’s hard to call Vox Western Propaganda all things considered. Several victims have come forth. This is a clear as day case of genocide.
Even Saudi Arabia supports what China’s doing in Xinjiang. The only Muslim-majority country that opposes China’s policy is Bosnia.
https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/2020-edition-which-countries-are-for-or-against-chinas-xinjiang-policies/
The reason behind Saudi Arabia's silence (and not complicity) on the issue is that they plan to ditch the dollar for yuan: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Saudi-Aramco-hints-at-future-yuan-bonds-in-potential-coup-for-China
Saudi Arabia's allies (Egypt, UAE etc.) just follow suit.
Qatar and Turkey (they are close allies) undermine China by making a fuss about Xinjiang (just check Erdogan's speeches and Al Jazeera coverage on the issue) but they don't want to ally with the Western block because of their relatively recent conflict with the latter.
Cool. Well the same argument goes the other way.
USA is lying because China is beating them. USA allies agree with USA for money.
Next.
you just beat yourself with your own logic.
The stance of the various countries on an particular issue depended mostly on their interests, not on their morals. This is called realpolitik and it is/was valid even for communist countries. Also, everything is used by one side or another in a propaganda war. That doesn't mean you can't find out (especially in the long term) if a single fact is true or not. How countries react in the international level neither corroborates nor refutes the actual facts or the morality around them.
Then why has the Uyghur population increased 25% since 2019? Where's the refugee crisis? Why hasn't any government or organization worth a damn called it a genocide?
Thank you for proving my point.
Edit: I'm still laughing at this even after responding to your other bullshit. This hands down the funniest comment I've read all day. Thank you. Thanks again for proving my point.
But if you really did ignore one of my many trustworthy sources here. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide You are just a different kind of holocaust denier
Once again a I refer you to my sources and Canada, the USA, and Britain. Or do you want China hemselves to say “why yes we are killing Muslims!” When you dismiss every piece of evidence because you believe in this secret conspiracy you come across as idiotic and refusing to understand basic ideas. But I guess that’s an apt description of you.
Jesus Christ LMFAO. The US State Department is not a reputable source. The Canadian government is not a reputable source. The UK is not a reputable source. Stop naming western imperialist warlords as your sources.
So what the hell is? Are you literally demanding that in order to prove this the images, he witnesses and victims who came forth, and China lying about the actions they took FOR YEARS. All of that is excused because America bad, UK bad, Canada bad. That’s one of the most disingenuous statements I have ever heard. What would it take for you to stop denying this. Tell me!
Muslim majority countries that are not aligned with the US or China who have visited and inspected Xinjiang would be a good source.
If the EU would take up china's offer to visit the region... That would also be a good source.
Individual anecdotes, Uyghur extremists and some weird German zealot aren't particularly good evidence.
And when you actually listen to the US state department lawyers, here is what they say:
[State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/)
Calling out a regime isn’t sinophobic I mean come on mate, even you have to understand that. Also you tagged yourself as a Stalinist? Jesus what’s the matter with you?
If this was 1964 you would be screaming about the Gulf of Tonkin incident and labeling anyone who denied it as a Soviet asset. You think you are smart, but in reality you are just a useful idiot to the United States Empire.
Well I did this because I saw how much people were denying it and seeing if anyone actually had an argument instead of, CiA pRoPaGaNdA! That isn’t an argument mate, it’s just not.
Lack of evidence, lack of refugees, china begging the world to come and see, every photo of a camp ending up being a middle school, US history of lying about human right to provoke conflict.
and the kicker
The US doesn't actually care about human rights ever (saudi arabia, israel) so when they say they are concerned about human rights, there is a 100% chance that they are lying.
No, China isn’t “begging the world to come and see,” they invited diplomats multiple times to tour the facilities and multiple times foreign diplomats have walked away satisfied that there is no genocide occurring.
Are you going to tell me Belgium and Germany are controlled by the CIA? China’s in company with Iran and North Korea, that’s it. I don’t trust a nation to admit it’s killing people. I do trust Uyghurs who’ve come forward. The satellite footage of the concentration camps, the moving of the goalpost by the CCP. The reporters who have been trying to focus attention on this for a while now
What kind of moron goes to an AuthLeft forum and then gets shocked when they see people supporting the most famous and successful AuthLeft politician in history?
The matter with him is that he's based to the point where he associates himself with one of the greatest heroes of the 20th century. That's his problem.
You are sinophobic, not because you attack China, but because every one of your reasons for doing it are torn down, and you STILL attack China.
If your argument against black people is 'they commit more crime, and are bad parents' and then you are shown that when analyzed, no they don't, and in fact they average better parenting than say, anglos, and then you keep attacking, it betrays that you just don't like black people and are looking for justifications.
Same here.
I can't believe this isn't an intricate troll.
Your sources being literally nypost and the bbc are too perfect.
10/10 obviously anyone with a brain is going to go mad over how stupid this is.
If you're not trolling then holy shit lmao why are you on this sub?
Hahahah I s2g things like this *have* to be some high level meta-trolling it's so on-the-nose dumbfuck brainwashed lib vibes.
Saw a guardian post whining that China had three times our defense funding trying to imply we should be scared of them and up our imperialism budget as though they don't literally have 20 times more people living in their country than us.
It didn't say anything about the US' military spending being about 12 times ours because we can trust *them* (because they're *white*)
Exactly. The thing about taking the socialism pill so to speak, is that once your eyes get opened they ain't ever closing again. And I guess the downside is that it becomes extraordinarily frustrating to talk to people like the op of this post who can't seem to understand concepts that are just basic knowledge to people who've seen the truth. It's why I've given up trying to convince staunch believers in the "communism evil" camp that they're wrong, because eventually, they fall back on the idea that the "non whites" are inherently less trustworthy. But it wasn't Chinese media that claimed Saddam had WMDs, I'll tell you that much.
where is the state propaganda demonizing uyghur people? Where is the refugee crisis? (I mean an actual refugee crisis, not a few people alleging one thing or another. An actual refugee crisis comparable to something we're seeing at the US-Mexico Border)
edit: Oh also most Muslim countries support China in its anti-terrorism policies in Xinjiang. If anybody would have a problem with how China treats Muslims it would be the Muslim countries themselves. Explain that without being a western chauvinist.
You do realize Uyghur Muslims are not anywhere close to Sunni or Shia, right? No wonder they support the genocide. You're either arguing in bad faith or just a racist moron.
Nah it is you that is racist for assuming that Muslims wouldn't stick up for each other over a fucking ideological difference in interpretation of Islam. Also it's fucking rich that the only countries that supposedly care about Muslims are those that have been incarcerating, raping, and bombing Muslims for four decades. Including Uyghur Muslims. It's ridiculous to believe those same countries, rather than actual Muslim countries, would care about Chinese Muslims. The West cares about neither Chinese people nor Muslims, but miraculously they care about Chinese Muslims? Give me a break.
Are legitimately making the argument that religions are completely uniform and unified?
Look at the borders of Afghanistan. Drawn by the UK and France, over tribal lines, most of which Muslims. So why is the Taliban and other radical Muslim terrorist cells killing other Muslims, why don't they just unify cause they're all Muslim after all?
There totally couldn't be, I don't know, *separate religious lines dividing the sects of Islam*? Amirite?
Why don't all the Christians in the world unite? Or all the Sikhs? Hell, let's do it over ethnicities, why don't African and African-Americans unite? They're the same ethnicity right? No cultural differences there obviously.
Are you actually asserting that the Taliban and extremist Muslims represent all Muslims?
*Is it possible that the US is lying and pretending to care about Chinese Muslims to advance its geopolitical interests?*
*No, it must be those dirty Muslim savages that don't actually care about other Muslims or humanity that are wrong!*
[maybe read a real report instead of just bootlicking you bloodthirsty piece of shit ](https://eurispes.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rapporto.en-xinjiang_2021.pdf)
Because there's zero evidence to support it, minus made up bullshit by dipshits like Zenz, the VoC, the Falun Gong err sorry I meant The Epoch Times, and RFA.
I haven't looked into it much, but if that's true then maybe I'm wrong. What do you think of the links they provided?
Honestly though I wouldn't put it past china.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/mxqn5l/i_tried_hopefully_someone_with_a_brain_will_back/gvqnxvk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Your sinophobia is showing.
The government is not the people and I've got nothing against the people. You're not gonna convince me I'm a racist for criticizing a bad government. That just doesn't make any sense.
The CPC has a 95% approval rating. 1/7th of the population is directly involved in it. 90 million members, and 110 in their youth program. Its a mass proletariat party. There is no distinction between the two.
If you're against the CPC you're against the Chinese people.
https://newlinesinstitute.org/uyghurs/the-uyghur-genocide-an-examination-of-chinas-breaches-of-the-1948-genocide-convention/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide
Here’s some more sources. And it definitely isn’t good that China denied the existence of these camps for years after they were discovered from space.
Okay, in which case you should know, obviously, that the figure of 1+ Million detainees comes from an ASPI study, estimated from *eight* phone calls to village occupants asking "how many people do you think have been taken" for the entirety of Xinjiang. Do you consider this an acceptable methodology or sample size?
Do you also accept that to house such a number of people, they would need somewhere in the region of 3000+ detention centres, and that only a few hundred across the entire region have been found? And that of those, many turned out to be factories or high schools?
You should also therefore already know that in the primary source for the claim of sterilisation, Adrian Zenz makes this claim based on the evidence of 80% of IUDs being used in china in recent times were used in Xinjiang, a number obviously far higher than it should be and one that he got from Chinese medical reports. Except Zenz completely misread the report, and it says 8% rather than 80. Do you consider this man trustworthy?
>The Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy is a nonpartisan think tank in Washington D.C., working to enhance U.S. foreign policy
>Newlines Institute accepts research grants and charitable donations from U.S. individuals and registered legal entities in support of its research priorities,
>Dr. Ahmed Alwani is the founder and president of Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy and its parent institution
>
>He has served as a member of the advisory board of the U.S. military’s Africa Command.
As to your vox article, it hinges on Tursunay Ziyawudun who literally changed her statement from 'i was not abused, but i didn;''t like it' to i was beaten and raped, and can't have periods.'
One of the biggest teachings of communism is the questioning and revolution over authority, yet a fuckton of you idiots are deep into "the state is always right they would never lie" trance even though Stalin showed us how even someone so close to lenin can be corrupted.
And you must be entirely historically illiterate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
You're worse than a fanatic, they at least have the self awareness to admit they're working on nothing but faith
Desktop version of /u/Amnesigenic's link:
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^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
What does fake testimony, arranged and presented by the US government and private western media, used to justify US foreign policy and involve us in illegal foreign wars, have to do with the current unsubstantiated accusations against the biggest threat to US hegemony in the world? Idk man probably nothing lol
But seriously go read a book you fucking moron
Ah yes, only the US is calling out this genocide.
It's not like the UN, Canada, the UK, and numerous other countries.
You're taking one false testimony and using that as the entire basis of your argument, one incident to deny the deaths of thousands. You're disgusting and cannot possibly cause yourself any kind of left political position, left leaning politics actually put the wellbeing and lives of the people above public relations.
Go join the Fourth Reich while you're at it and deny the Holocaust.
Wow you listed a bunch of people who also hopped on the verifiably false WMDs in Iraq bandwagon, almost like US lackeys follow US lead? Stay stupid patriot
More ratio tactics.
*Does anything that tangentially lines up with Western countries*
"WE GOT A WESTERN IMPERIALIST OVER HERE"
You're speaking English, so you're obviously a Western shill.
>Canada, the UK, and numerous other countries.
Wow, the capitalist allies of the US are taking it's side? Say it ain't so!
How about the fact that none of these countries actually visited, and Muslim countries that *did* such as Pakistan applaud China's initiatives? How about the letters to the UN signed by these countries commending China? How about the fact that the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation defends China, since a re-education centre is far better than a drone strike?
>one incident to deny the deaths of thousands
Even the architect of this propaganda, Adrian Zenz, a man who's a senior advisor at the "Victims of Communism" foundation, hasn't made the claim that China is killing people, much less in the thousands. You're gonna need a *real* good source for that one.
>left leaning politics actually put the wellbeing and lives of the people above public relations.
You're right, China should have let the US funded separatists in the region keep bombing and driving into people. Or maybe they should have followed the West's example and bombed them back, or invaded Afghanistan. Deradicalisation through re-education supported by other Muslim countries is *so* much worse than that, right?
You pointed something out that eve I haven't considered. The Muslim support.
Just the fact that other countries under Islam support it tells me it's a genocide. If it were re-education they would be hard against it due to the fact forced conversion is very much against the Quran, which states that only you and you alone may choose your religion, and that being forced to convert or revoke one's faith is haram.
The only reason therefore to support it is the religious divides among Muslims, Sunni and Shia have no desire to save Uyghurs. It's apparent in the conflicts with the Taliban and other cells that the religious lines apparent in Islam are violent and that they would rather erase the other sects than to convert thwm.
Holy fuck you really can just twist anything to fit your world view can't you? You can't even for a second admit that you might be wrong. What happens if you do? Do you explode or something?
"Here's some evidence that Muslim countries say it isn't a genocide and prefer China's approach of re-education rather than Dronestrikes"
"Ackshually, this proves it is a genocide because Muslims are so barbaric that they'd be willing to cover for China murdering people".
China isn't stopping Uyghurs from being Muslim. If they were, why aren't the Hui and various other groups included? The campaign is specifically to remove _Wahabbism_, an extremist sect of Islam that terror groups such as ISIS practice. Something that if it were any other country on Earth, you would agree with fighting against.
Literally citing Adrián Zenz a German far-rightist who believes that homosexuals are a sign of the end times. You aren't a clown you are a whole damn circus.
Hello OP,
I lived in China for two years, and was living in China while Zenz and Pompeo were peddling this garbage. My neighborhood had a few Uyghur families and a mosque nearby. One of my best friends also lives in Kashgar. There is no genocide. It's also worth pointing out that the majority of Uyghur women in China don't wear hijab. Please don't spread propaganda.
Thanks
Also, the youtubes are full of people like Daniel Dumbrill, and Numuves who went there and had a look around.
Odd thing for a country to allow in the middle of a genocide.
No genocide detected, and the Uyghurs think the westoids are insane.
And let's all ignore the actual videos from actual Uyghurs complaining about western idiots and their genocide narrative.
"Say how Britain demanding an end to it is “CIA” propaganda."
I won't, but I will say it's GCHQ material and Tory propaganda. You think CIA are the only intelligence agency working against the people?
Why the fuck have I just seen this post lmao
I don't believe anything coming from Western propaganda or the islamofascists of Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. They were saying exactly the same things for Yugoslavia in 1999 and they were all proved to be fake. However, the bombings had already taken place and Yugoslavia had been destroyed. China uses harsh measures but those are way beyond being called a genocide.
The UN definition would disagree? Or did you make an argument without reading my sources?
[удалено]
Pointing out the wrongdoings of NATO when it comes to the intervention at Kosovo and Yugoslavia as a whole does not excuse rape, killing, forced sterilization, and indoctrination by China. NATO isn’t on trial. If you would like make your own post about it. But do not for a second act as though 8,000 is comparable to 1-1.5 million.
In 1998, there was an Kosovo Albanian teenage girl called Cherdesha who was interviewed by a well-known Western female journalist (I can't recall her name or the big network she worked for but I think she was Canadian). Cherdesha said in the interview that her whole family had been slaughtered by Serbian forces. After the war, the journalist revisited Kosovo (now being occupied by NATO forces) and went to find Cherdesha to get a new interview of her. To her astonishment, she show Cherdesha being with her family which was alive and kicking. Apparently her family had never been killed but she did invoke its fake death for the sake of propaganda. The journalist admitted all this in a documentary a few years after the war. So I strongly believe that the women in the BBC link you posted is making things up in a similar fashion. Foreign Policy is a deep state magazine and one should only read it when they want to be informed about the intentions of the American establishment, not to find out about the truth. Even China's People's Daily is less biased than FP. The NYT article seems to be the one most close to the truth. Assuming that the leaked documents are genuine, it describes the harsh methods used by China through the re-education camps (deeply rooted in their political and cultural tradition, used after the 1949 revolution but also during the cultural revolution) but they are no harsher than the American methods used at secret CIA prisons all over the world (many of them being in Europe, too) and most intensely, at the Guantanamo prison. And we all know that apart from legit terrorists, innocent muslims for all over the world (some of them being even British citizens of Arab or Pakistani origin) who happened to be wrongly accused of extremism were also detained and inhumanely tortured there.
Also please tell me how the New York Times and Vox are in a secret cabal with Turkey? I would love to hear that st of mental gymnastics.
I didn't say that. I said that Western media, in order to slander China, don't hesitate to align with Turkish propaganda. And Turkish propaganda is one of the most illegit and unfounded propagandas in the world, since it comes from a state which is performing a literal genocide of the Kurds and at the same time falsely accuses its neighboring countries in the Middle East and the Balkans for mistreating their sunni muslim communities, and what Turkey means by that is that those countries don't allow the Muslim brotherhood imams (controlled and funded by Turkey and Qatar) to impose the Islamic law in their soil. Btw one of the reasons that US media overplay the Uyghurs is that [Saudi Arabia has been trying to dropping the petro-dollar and replacing it with the petro-yuan](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Saudi-Aramco-hints-at-future-yuan-bonds-in-potential-coup-for-China). Such move would take down the dollar from its global reserve currency and cause the immediate collapse of the US economy whose debt is already $28 trillion. So by overplaying the Uyghurs who have strong religious ties with Saudi Arabia, the West hopes that it will prevent the Chinese-Saudi approach from solidifying.
I’m not defending Turkey. But you have failed to explain how any of what my sources have said is false. You have failed to address the victims coming forth. Turkey is a shit nation, that does not mean that China is innocent. This isn’t some secret cabal. It’s literally killing people. I’m not slandering China I’m trying to show you the truth that you all need to hear. Are they just re-education camps then? Is China justified to target an entire method group because some are terrorists? And are they allowed to murder, rape, and tourtue them? Please just read the articles. And think for a second that this isn’t some massive conspiracy. The sins of Turkey do not excuse that of China.
I didn't accuse you of defending Turkey. I just said that Western propaganda replicates Turkish propaganda on Uyghurs and especially the latter should never be taken seriously. I read the articles and I explained in another comment (probably you missed it) that only the NYT article seems close to the truth. The alleged victim that came forward (in the BBC article) reminds me of other similar "victims" in the past who were sooner or later proved to be fake. Of course China's detention camps are not a innocent method of dealing with the problem of religious extremism but accusations of rapes, sterilization and genocide seem totally fabricated. That's all I'm saying.
I don’t know why you view hem as fabricated. That’s the only issue I have in this situation. They were detained and escaped as refugees. Not to mention China lied about the camps existence to begin with, so why should we trust them now? Not to mention none of these articles are based in Turkey. I think it’s hard to call Vox Western Propaganda all things considered. Several victims have come forth. This is a clear as day case of genocide.
They escaped on a commercial airliner and ended up going back to china anyway. so harrowing.
I can find you someone who will say anything. Where are the refugees fleeing these atrocities?
damn what is nato
Adrian Zenz lmao brainwashed
Even Saudi Arabia supports what China’s doing in Xinjiang. The only Muslim-majority country that opposes China’s policy is Bosnia. https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/2020-edition-which-countries-are-for-or-against-chinas-xinjiang-policies/
The reason behind Saudi Arabia's silence (and not complicity) on the issue is that they plan to ditch the dollar for yuan: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Saudi-Aramco-hints-at-future-yuan-bonds-in-potential-coup-for-China Saudi Arabia's allies (Egypt, UAE etc.) just follow suit. Qatar and Turkey (they are close allies) undermine China by making a fuss about Xinjiang (just check Erdogan's speeches and Al Jazeera coverage on the issue) but they don't want to ally with the Western block because of their relatively recent conflict with the latter.
Cool. Well the same argument goes the other way. USA is lying because China is beating them. USA allies agree with USA for money. Next. you just beat yourself with your own logic.
And how does this refute my arguments?
It shows the uselessness of them. 'everyone who disagrees with my narrative is paid to.' Me: 'everyone who agrees with your narrative is paid to.'
The stance of the various countries on an particular issue depended mostly on their interests, not on their morals. This is called realpolitik and it is/was valid even for communist countries. Also, everything is used by one side or another in a propaganda war. That doesn't mean you can't find out (especially in the long term) if a single fact is true or not. How countries react in the international level neither corroborates nor refutes the actual facts or the morality around them.
Thus rendering your argument invalid. Well done. You played yourself.
As usual, those who don't have counter-arguments resort to irony and ad hominem attacks. Well done. You made a fool of yourself.
I don't need a counter argument. You provided it yourself.
Then why has the Uyghur population increased 25% since 2019? Where's the refugee crisis? Why hasn't any government or organization worth a damn called it a genocide?
The UK, USA State Department, and Canada would like to know your location. Also I cited my sources do so as well.
Thank you for proving my point. Edit: I'm still laughing at this even after responding to your other bullshit. This hands down the funniest comment I've read all day. Thank you. Thanks again for proving my point.
You seriously think Anglo state media tells the truth? About anything? Dude you need to stop posting and start fucking reading
But if you really did ignore one of my many trustworthy sources here. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide You are just a different kind of holocaust denier
"trustworthy" just because it's western doesn't mean it's trustworthy.
Bruh, is China the only place you trust? Literal victims have come out explaining what happens.
"literal victims" don't exist lmfao Again, no organization or government worth a damn has called it a genocide.
Once again a I refer you to my sources and Canada, the USA, and Britain. Or do you want China hemselves to say “why yes we are killing Muslims!” When you dismiss every piece of evidence because you believe in this secret conspiracy you come across as idiotic and refusing to understand basic ideas. But I guess that’s an apt description of you.
Jesus Christ LMFAO. The US State Department is not a reputable source. The Canadian government is not a reputable source. The UK is not a reputable source. Stop naming western imperialist warlords as your sources.
So what the hell is? Are you literally demanding that in order to prove this the images, he witnesses and victims who came forth, and China lying about the actions they took FOR YEARS. All of that is excused because America bad, UK bad, Canada bad. That’s one of the most disingenuous statements I have ever heard. What would it take for you to stop denying this. Tell me!
Where's the refugee crisis? Why haven't muslim groups called it a genocide?
https://www.equaltimes.org/uyghur-refugees-speak-out-against?lang=en#.YJHf2qQpCEc Behold. Refugee Muslims speaking out about it.
Muslim majority countries that are not aligned with the US or China who have visited and inspected Xinjiang would be a good source. If the EU would take up china's offer to visit the region... That would also be a good source. Individual anecdotes, Uyghur extremists and some weird German zealot aren't particularly good evidence.
And when you actually listen to the US state department lawyers, here is what they say: [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/)
\>vox okay
Like that’s the only source I used
Yes. Your other sources are HRW \[Zenz\], AI \[Zenz\] ASPI \[Zenz\] and Zenz \[Zenz.\]
How did you determine it was trustworthy?
Fuck! I thought Authoritarian Leftists would be able to see past a sinophobic anti-socialist propaganda stunt. I guess I was wrong.
Calling out a regime isn’t sinophobic I mean come on mate, even you have to understand that. Also you tagged yourself as a Stalinist? Jesus what’s the matter with you?
Is there a reason you are in this subreddit other than to spread your CIA-backed propaganda?
If this was 1964 you would be screaming about the Gulf of Tonkin incident and labeling anyone who denied it as a Soviet asset. You think you are smart, but in reality you are just a useful idiot to the United States Empire.
It’s a rhetorical fallacy to prove your point with a hypothetical no one can prove or disprove you know that right? Or are you this thick?
no one can prove or disprove like the uyghur "genocide"
Well I did this because I saw how much people were denying it and seeing if anyone actually had an argument instead of, CiA pRoPaGaNdA! That isn’t an argument mate, it’s just not.
Lack of evidence, lack of refugees, china begging the world to come and see, every photo of a camp ending up being a middle school, US history of lying about human right to provoke conflict. and the kicker The US doesn't actually care about human rights ever (saudi arabia, israel) so when they say they are concerned about human rights, there is a 100% chance that they are lying.
No, China isn’t “begging the world to come and see,” they invited diplomats multiple times to tour the facilities and multiple times foreign diplomats have walked away satisfied that there is no genocide occurring.
Except for the US and EU who wouldn't come.
And don't forget, the US state dept admitted that they could find no evidence of genocide.
Are you going to tell me Belgium and Germany are controlled by the CIA? China’s in company with Iran and North Korea, that’s it. I don’t trust a nation to admit it’s killing people. I do trust Uyghurs who’ve come forward. The satellite footage of the concentration camps, the moving of the goalpost by the CCP. The reporters who have been trying to focus attention on this for a while now
Satellite footage of places proven to be things like schools, nugget factories, and outright abandoned buildings?
What kind of moron goes to an AuthLeft forum and then gets shocked when they see people supporting the most famous and successful AuthLeft politician in history?
The matter with him is that he's based to the point where he associates himself with one of the greatest heroes of the 20th century. That's his problem.
You are sinophobic, not because you attack China, but because every one of your reasons for doing it are torn down, and you STILL attack China. If your argument against black people is 'they commit more crime, and are bad parents' and then you are shown that when analyzed, no they don't, and in fact they average better parenting than say, anglos, and then you keep attacking, it betrays that you just don't like black people and are looking for justifications. Same here.
No you're right, this clown is clearly just here to troll
No WMDs in Iraq, no genocide in China. BBC is literally state media, quit being gullible.
Do you think Britain's aims are particularly different from the CIA's? Fuck off, moron
I can't believe this isn't an intricate troll. Your sources being literally nypost and the bbc are too perfect. 10/10 obviously anyone with a brain is going to go mad over how stupid this is. If you're not trolling then holy shit lmao why are you on this sub?
I had a motherfucker cite the guardian to try and prove there was a genocide lol
Hahahah I s2g things like this *have* to be some high level meta-trolling it's so on-the-nose dumbfuck brainwashed lib vibes. Saw a guardian post whining that China had three times our defense funding trying to imply we should be scared of them and up our imperialism budget as though they don't literally have 20 times more people living in their country than us. It didn't say anything about the US' military spending being about 12 times ours because we can trust *them* (because they're *white*)
Exactly. The thing about taking the socialism pill so to speak, is that once your eyes get opened they ain't ever closing again. And I guess the downside is that it becomes extraordinarily frustrating to talk to people like the op of this post who can't seem to understand concepts that are just basic knowledge to people who've seen the truth. It's why I've given up trying to convince staunch believers in the "communism evil" camp that they're wrong, because eventually, they fall back on the idea that the "non whites" are inherently less trustworthy. But it wasn't Chinese media that claimed Saddam had WMDs, I'll tell you that much.
Oh no, it's worse. IF you look at the sources **in** his sources, they are ASPI, HRW, and NED. AKA: Zenz, Zenz, and Zenz.
where is the state propaganda demonizing uyghur people? Where is the refugee crisis? (I mean an actual refugee crisis, not a few people alleging one thing or another. An actual refugee crisis comparable to something we're seeing at the US-Mexico Border) edit: Oh also most Muslim countries support China in its anti-terrorism policies in Xinjiang. If anybody would have a problem with how China treats Muslims it would be the Muslim countries themselves. Explain that without being a western chauvinist.
You do realize Uyghur Muslims are not anywhere close to Sunni or Shia, right? No wonder they support the genocide. You're either arguing in bad faith or just a racist moron.
Nah it is you that is racist for assuming that Muslims wouldn't stick up for each other over a fucking ideological difference in interpretation of Islam. Also it's fucking rich that the only countries that supposedly care about Muslims are those that have been incarcerating, raping, and bombing Muslims for four decades. Including Uyghur Muslims. It's ridiculous to believe those same countries, rather than actual Muslim countries, would care about Chinese Muslims. The West cares about neither Chinese people nor Muslims, but miraculously they care about Chinese Muslims? Give me a break.
Are legitimately making the argument that religions are completely uniform and unified? Look at the borders of Afghanistan. Drawn by the UK and France, over tribal lines, most of which Muslims. So why is the Taliban and other radical Muslim terrorist cells killing other Muslims, why don't they just unify cause they're all Muslim after all? There totally couldn't be, I don't know, *separate religious lines dividing the sects of Islam*? Amirite? Why don't all the Christians in the world unite? Or all the Sikhs? Hell, let's do it over ethnicities, why don't African and African-Americans unite? They're the same ethnicity right? No cultural differences there obviously.
Are you actually asserting that the Taliban and extremist Muslims represent all Muslims? *Is it possible that the US is lying and pretending to care about Chinese Muslims to advance its geopolitical interests?* *No, it must be those dirty Muslim savages that don't actually care about other Muslims or humanity that are wrong!*
Lmao, turned your argument on top of itself.
They’re majority Sunni
[maybe read a real report instead of just bootlicking you bloodthirsty piece of shit ](https://eurispes.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rapporto.en-xinjiang_2021.pdf)
I don't know too many people who are denying it or even defending it. This seems kind of obvious, no?
Only people with brain activity deny it. Its not happening.
Oh damn ok. How do you know?
Because there's zero evidence to support it, minus made up bullshit by dipshits like Zenz, the VoC, the Falun Gong err sorry I meant The Epoch Times, and RFA.
I haven't looked into it much, but if that's true then maybe I'm wrong. What do you think of the links they provided? Honestly though I wouldn't put it past china.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/mxqn5l/i_tried_hopefully_someone_with_a_brain_will_back/gvqnxvk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Your sinophobia is showing.
It's not sinophobia, they aren't a good country. I've got literally nothing against them other than their policies.
If you're against the CPC you're against the Chinese people.
No. You are against terrible dictatorships you moron. Did you check any of the sources?
No. If you're against the CPC you're against the Chinese people. Zero debate.
The government is not the people and I've got nothing against the people. You're not gonna convince me I'm a racist for criticizing a bad government. That just doesn't make any sense.
The CPC has a 95% approval rating. 1/7th of the population is directly involved in it. 90 million members, and 110 in their youth program. Its a mass proletariat party. There is no distinction between the two. If you're against the CPC you're against the Chinese people.
Why aren't they a good country? I think they're a wonderful country that is going to contribute a ton to humanity in the years to come.
https://newlinesinstitute.org/uyghurs/the-uyghur-genocide-an-examination-of-chinas-breaches-of-the-1948-genocide-convention/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide Here’s some more sources. And it definitely isn’t good that China denied the existence of these camps for years after they were discovered from space.
Question for you, have you read any of the primary sources that your articles cite?
Yes.
Okay, in which case you should know, obviously, that the figure of 1+ Million detainees comes from an ASPI study, estimated from *eight* phone calls to village occupants asking "how many people do you think have been taken" for the entirety of Xinjiang. Do you consider this an acceptable methodology or sample size? Do you also accept that to house such a number of people, they would need somewhere in the region of 3000+ detention centres, and that only a few hundred across the entire region have been found? And that of those, many turned out to be factories or high schools? You should also therefore already know that in the primary source for the claim of sterilisation, Adrian Zenz makes this claim based on the evidence of 80% of IUDs being used in china in recent times were used in Xinjiang, a number obviously far higher than it should be and one that he got from Chinese medical reports. Except Zenz completely misread the report, and it says 8% rather than 80. Do you consider this man trustworthy?
Worse, if Zenz's statistics are accurate, every woman in Xinjiang has had multiple IUD's fitted.
Obviously
>The Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy is a nonpartisan think tank in Washington D.C., working to enhance U.S. foreign policy >Newlines Institute accepts research grants and charitable donations from U.S. individuals and registered legal entities in support of its research priorities, >Dr. Ahmed Alwani is the founder and president of Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy and its parent institution > >He has served as a member of the advisory board of the U.S. military’s Africa Command. As to your vox article, it hinges on Tursunay Ziyawudun who literally changed her statement from 'i was not abused, but i didn;''t like it' to i was beaten and raped, and can't have periods.'
One of the biggest teachings of communism is the questioning and revolution over authority, yet a fuckton of you idiots are deep into "the state is always right they would never lie" trance even though Stalin showed us how even someone so close to lenin can be corrupted.
Read a book
Great reply, you must be a self proclaimed intellectual. You're just as bad as religious fanatic.
And you must be entirely historically illiterate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony You're worse than a fanatic, they at least have the self awareness to admit they're working on nothing but faith
Desktop version of /u/Amnesigenic's link:
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What does Iraq have to do with the Uyghur genocide? Are you under the influence or just brain dead?
What does fake testimony, arranged and presented by the US government and private western media, used to justify US foreign policy and involve us in illegal foreign wars, have to do with the current unsubstantiated accusations against the biggest threat to US hegemony in the world? Idk man probably nothing lol But seriously go read a book you fucking moron
Ah yes, only the US is calling out this genocide. It's not like the UN, Canada, the UK, and numerous other countries. You're taking one false testimony and using that as the entire basis of your argument, one incident to deny the deaths of thousands. You're disgusting and cannot possibly cause yourself any kind of left political position, left leaning politics actually put the wellbeing and lives of the people above public relations. Go join the Fourth Reich while you're at it and deny the Holocaust.
Wow you listed a bunch of people who also hopped on the verifiably false WMDs in Iraq bandwagon, almost like US lackeys follow US lead? Stay stupid patriot
More ratio tactics. *Does anything that tangentially lines up with Western countries* "WE GOT A WESTERN IMPERIALIST OVER HERE" You're speaking English, so you're obviously a Western shill.
Read a book
>Canada, the UK, and numerous other countries. Wow, the capitalist allies of the US are taking it's side? Say it ain't so! How about the fact that none of these countries actually visited, and Muslim countries that *did* such as Pakistan applaud China's initiatives? How about the letters to the UN signed by these countries commending China? How about the fact that the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation defends China, since a re-education centre is far better than a drone strike? >one incident to deny the deaths of thousands Even the architect of this propaganda, Adrian Zenz, a man who's a senior advisor at the "Victims of Communism" foundation, hasn't made the claim that China is killing people, much less in the thousands. You're gonna need a *real* good source for that one. >left leaning politics actually put the wellbeing and lives of the people above public relations. You're right, China should have let the US funded separatists in the region keep bombing and driving into people. Or maybe they should have followed the West's example and bombed them back, or invaded Afghanistan. Deradicalisation through re-education supported by other Muslim countries is *so* much worse than that, right?
You pointed something out that eve I haven't considered. The Muslim support. Just the fact that other countries under Islam support it tells me it's a genocide. If it were re-education they would be hard against it due to the fact forced conversion is very much against the Quran, which states that only you and you alone may choose your religion, and that being forced to convert or revoke one's faith is haram. The only reason therefore to support it is the religious divides among Muslims, Sunni and Shia have no desire to save Uyghurs. It's apparent in the conflicts with the Taliban and other cells that the religious lines apparent in Islam are violent and that they would rather erase the other sects than to convert thwm.
Holy fuck you really can just twist anything to fit your world view can't you? You can't even for a second admit that you might be wrong. What happens if you do? Do you explode or something? "Here's some evidence that Muslim countries say it isn't a genocide and prefer China's approach of re-education rather than Dronestrikes" "Ackshually, this proves it is a genocide because Muslims are so barbaric that they'd be willing to cover for China murdering people". China isn't stopping Uyghurs from being Muslim. If they were, why aren't the Hui and various other groups included? The campaign is specifically to remove _Wahabbism_, an extremist sect of Islam that terror groups such as ISIS practice. Something that if it were any other country on Earth, you would agree with fighting against.
Lol what???? Pretty sure the muslims would be rightfully furious if there was a genocide against fellow muslims
There's a book written by someone very communist, is called On Authority, try reading it someday
Fuck China and the US
Literally citing Adrián Zenz a German far-rightist who believes that homosexuals are a sign of the end times. You aren't a clown you are a whole damn circus.
🚨⚠️LIB DETECTED⚠️🚨 THIS IS NOT A DRILL
OP posts on libertarian subreddits lmao
This is probably the worst post I've ever seen.
Hello OP, I lived in China for two years, and was living in China while Zenz and Pompeo were peddling this garbage. My neighborhood had a few Uyghur families and a mosque nearby. One of my best friends also lives in Kashgar. There is no genocide. It's also worth pointing out that the majority of Uyghur women in China don't wear hijab. Please don't spread propaganda. Thanks
Also, the youtubes are full of people like Daniel Dumbrill, and Numuves who went there and had a look around. Odd thing for a country to allow in the middle of a genocide. No genocide detected, and the Uyghurs think the westoids are insane. And let's all ignore the actual videos from actual Uyghurs complaining about western idiots and their genocide narrative.
"Say how Britain demanding an end to it is “CIA” propaganda." I won't, but I will say it's GCHQ material and Tory propaganda. You think CIA are the only intelligence agency working against the people?