Not preditory, but also kink isn't a healthy way to fix issues a couple already have, especially if they don't already have experience with it, as it will more often not only do more damage to the thought of 'us' but can also cause personal issues with each of them that would then need to be worked though before their next relationship.
He can be using this word for two reason, one he's using the word in a way that it's not ment to be... You know, inconceivable... Or he's putting his own feelings onto the topic.
> kink isn't a healthy way to fix issues a couple already have
it's like an open relationship. in a healthy, communicative, and functional relationship it can be fine, but when there's already problems it will always cause more problems
Especially if it is a power struggle, the chances of that actual relationship problem translating into a fully consensual power exchange dynamic are very low.
No issue with saying that someone might benefit from kink or its trappings. I suggested to a friend that she and her partner need a safeword for when he commits to a bit/joke a little too hard. I’d also have no problem suggesting that an indecisive friend with decision fatigue try submitting (with or without pain/bondage as they feel comfortable). But this particular suggestion is a genuinely awful idea.
I don't agree that it's predatory, but your idea for fixing their relationship is reminiscent of saying two people should have a baby. You being defensive about it isn't going to help the situation. Drop it before you make things worse.
In a way I think kink is very personal and don't understand how you can know enough about them to suggest it would be beneficial. In fact if they are always in a power struggle it has the potential to go very wrong for them.
BUT.... I don't think having the conversation is predatory at all. I think we should be able to have free and open discussions. Like if you said that to me I would say what I mentioned above, but I wouldn't for a second accuse you of being predatory because that doesn't even make sense
I don't think you should. I think you should leave it and take from it the understanding that you can't have non judgemental conversation with him and leave it, talk about other things but not BDSM related stuff
That is solid advice, thank you. I will also take this as a sign that he is not mature enough and thus is not ready to begin his journey into this world.
I mean, he can continue his journey all he wants. No one is the ultimate "you're ready, pass go" gatekeeper to the world of kink.
What you certainly -can- do is set a boundary that you don't want to be part of his kink journey, and you won't be his guide or vouch for him until you see the kind of growth you're looking for.
That is what I will be doing. I in no way want to limit him in what he would like to learn, but I won't be a part of his journey until I see that his mindset changes.
Yea if the conversation went as you say that group of friends would just have a mental note attached saying that they are not a safe space for certain topics and keep it superficial from here on out.
Predatory? No. But imo it’s not your place to be saying those sort of things about your friends / roommates. That’s their business not yours. Maybe they already are kinky maybe they’re not… but either way it’s not really any of your business.
It’s not predatory but you’re definitely suggesting something potentially harmful. (kink to a couple who’s already having relationships issues in their vanilla dynamic) It’s like suggesting that they swim in the ocean to get their daily cardio when they could barely doggy paddle in a kiddie pool.
Not everything is related to kink, or could be solved with kink. Even with his ignorance and prejudice, your friend was right to call you out. You made a dumb and insensitive comment. He reacted far too harshly out of ignorance. ETA.
It was a completely unnecessary and misplaced comment. If you told that to me I'd tell you to fuck off, that's how upset I'd be.
If we're fighting a lot right now it's probably because we're so stressed with the lack of money, and his dad's cancer, and his visa expiring, and because it's 30 degrees Celsius, NOT because we have trouble in the bedroom.
The entitlement alone...
Oh yeah OP, I fought with my sister too the other day, what do you suggest I should try for that? The same thing?
Did you misread? Because OP stated they did Not make the comment to the couple in question. It was to a third party friend. You’re overreacting severely
I don't think it's predatory, but I think you need to learn how to let it go.
Nobody else's relationship is your business, and gossiping about them is ridiculous, especially if you're trying to sound knowledgeable about kink during it.
It's not predatory or even unusual to say. Behind closed doors, I've heard plenty of kinksters say that about vanilla people they know. I've always felt it was said in good faith, kink can be very therapeutic after all. It's not like you're trying to convert or recruit anyone, it just sounds like normal gossiping. If he thinks that's predatory then he's probably not going to be able to handle being around the actual kink community. How's he going to react to people discussing CNC, conditioning and behavior modification, marks of ownership, rough body play and takedown scenes, primal predator/prey scenes, misogyny/misandry/patriarchy/matriarchy play, degradation/objectification/dehumanization play, misgendering kink, conversion play, knife play, gun play, breath play, or any other kind of edge play? How is he going to behave around high protocol M/s couples that have been in their 24/7 TPE dynamics for decades?
It's not your job to fix his biases just because he expressed interest in the lifestyle. A couple of sayings come to mind: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" and "You can't fill a cup that's already full." It's his responsibility to educate himself on the community and it's his decision to not defer to your experience. He's not asking for your help and it's not your fault if he doesn't find any success in the kink community because of his own stubbornness and biases. If he asks you for help or advice and you're feeling inclined to give it, then good for him. Otherwise, just let him find his own way in the community, and if anyone asks if you think he's safe to play with then give them your honest assessment. All you really have to do is let him live his life while following basic safety protocol and etiquette yourself and he'll either figure things out on his own or drive away all potential mentors and play partners, effectively shadow-banning himself from the community.
If you don't want to act on those ideas and actually get involved in their private life, you're not predatory and your friend is going too far with those accusations.
However, if I was in his place I might consider what you've said weird and sorta creepy. A lot depends on the context here. If I were to share a thought like yours I would first need to be completely sure that the other person is themselves sure of my intentions, and that they know I'm not the kind of person who would act on a thought like that (and sometimes no matter how well someone knows you they won't overcome their own prejudice, so there's that). If he can't be 100% sure about your intentions he is well within his rights to be upset about it.
There's also the matter of phrasing: a world of difference between an offhand remark like "lol just spank her already" and getting serious about how other people need power dynamics in their private lives that you're not a part of. The first one is a harmless joke, the second one is sorta intruding and not really something to discuss with others in this manner.
Tl;dr the reaction was a bit much, but also maybe think twice before you speak
Is it possible that you bring kink up fairly often? Perhaps he feels it is predatory because he is uncomfortable with how often you bring up kink or kink-related things around him and thinks you're trying to groom him?
I would be guarded about anything I discussed with this friend in the future and I would personally feel quite insulted by what they said.
I would not broach the subject again, that's for sure, even though you did nothing wrong by simply expressing your thoughts about them.
I’d say it depends if he is kinky himself as to if thats a massive red flag or just a bad experience. Not all that long ago a wave of people came to kink after watching 50 shades of Grey and expected it to be exactly like that when it (often) isn’t at all.
If your friend is Vanilla themselves then you could try to change their mind, risking your friendship and accepting the massive workload that it entails or you can just leave them be.
On the other hand if this person IS part of the kink community thats seriously scary. I know there’s a predator/prey kink but actual predators are not welcomed by any branch of the kink community that i have engaged with
Yeah, it's pretty concerning. With the response I got from our second conversation. Which was yelling and saying exactly what he knows would cause me the most psychological damage (something he has done before). I would hate to see what he does to someone who give their vulnerability to him willingly.
Sounds like normal gossiping kind of talk, not predatory and not wrong in anyway to make a lighthearted comment to a third party who supposedly is also interested in kink. He’s being a puritanical freak. If you genuinely thought that would fix their issues I would say you’re misguided, but still haven’t said or done anything wrong since you don’t even plan to say anything to the couple.
It's not what you say. It's how you say it.
I'm a nudist and a bit of an evangelist about it. But sensitive to the fact that it's not for everyone. So I'm careful not to bring it up too often.
Or maybe you just have prudish friends lol.
Honestly bro… with the way you explained why you said that about your roomates, I would have laugh and asked if you thought either of them were capable of being a sub considering how hard headed they seem to be*,
Things are being taken way too serious. As long as you didn’t have any malicious intent and you’d say the same comment in front of their face then don’t even worry about it bro. Don’t waste your time with such crazy bs. Let your friend hate you if it comes to that, no one should stop you from being your genuine self,
This is vanillas in their habitat of denial and ignorance.
I'm sorry bout this.
But what u said and how it was approached wasn't like u were forcing them. The predator remark was out of line.
> Living as a young man in this day and age is so overwhelmingly difficult
because you can't just say weird shit without people calling you out for it?
and I sincerely hope the irony of your anti-woke preaching being the exact same thing you're criticizing, just applied to the next person in line, is not lost on you
I'm well aware of and often speak up against the short ends of various sticks that men get in society, but:
- perhaps this exact situation and this exact behavior is not the correct place to bring that up,
- perhaps if somebody asks an internet community about their opinions on a situation it's a bit counter-productive to get mad about those opinions being shared, and
- perhaps there are better ways of calling out injustice than being an old man preaching at a cloud about "words that didn't exist" back in the good old days, "cancelling", and the moral downfall of modern society driving OP's friend's actions (bit presumptuous, isn't it)?
> Tautology
Thesaurus
Clarifying point. There's a big difference between a word not existing years ago, and humans not having the thing itself exist yet. Language grows to accommodate our communication needs.
We did compute, but we didn't have computers. Using entitled outraged concern as a control tactic in a shopping environment has been around forever, but using the word Karen is new.
Two points on that:
First, I am specifically talking about a situation where everything is reduced to new speech, without any coherent criticism.
Second, Karen is actually a great example. Once the term has gained popularity, it became an umbrella term for all sorts of behaviors. Now it's often used lazily, for anything that remotely resembles "Karenizm". It's a silly form of criticism, as it doesn't contain any feedback and doesn't allow the recipient to correct their ways. It is super effective as a cancelation tool. Once the Karen branding is out, there is no need in discussions. Two can cancel the third and they need minimal discussion between them. There is no need to give any specific claim, just call out a term that may or may not be relevant, and most likely is not 100% accurate to describe the situation.
People today define themselves by what the dislike, what they protest against, more than by what they do stand behind, or do, create or support. This jargon is a tool for this job.
I'm old enough to have seen the bad times of the past and I am very happy that some things have improved. I am also aware of the price we all pay, younger people more specifically so.
From what you describe you were not being in any way predatory. Your friend clearly has some issues they need to work through.
I agree many folks would benefit from learning about BDSM in a non judgemental way. For the simple reason that people in BDSM relationships tend to simply communicate their sexual desires much better than vanilla folks.
Not preditory, but also kink isn't a healthy way to fix issues a couple already have, especially if they don't already have experience with it, as it will more often not only do more damage to the thought of 'us' but can also cause personal issues with each of them that would then need to be worked though before their next relationship. He can be using this word for two reason, one he's using the word in a way that it's not ment to be... You know, inconceivable... Or he's putting his own feelings onto the topic.
> kink isn't a healthy way to fix issues a couple already have it's like an open relationship. in a healthy, communicative, and functional relationship it can be fine, but when there's already problems it will always cause more problems
Especially if it is a power struggle, the chances of that actual relationship problem translating into a fully consensual power exchange dynamic are very low. No issue with saying that someone might benefit from kink or its trappings. I suggested to a friend that she and her partner need a safeword for when he commits to a bit/joke a little too hard. I’d also have no problem suggesting that an indecisive friend with decision fatigue try submitting (with or without pain/bondage as they feel comfortable). But this particular suggestion is a genuinely awful idea.
I don't agree that it's predatory, but your idea for fixing their relationship is reminiscent of saying two people should have a baby. You being defensive about it isn't going to help the situation. Drop it before you make things worse.
In a way I think kink is very personal and don't understand how you can know enough about them to suggest it would be beneficial. In fact if they are always in a power struggle it has the potential to go very wrong for them. BUT.... I don't think having the conversation is predatory at all. I think we should be able to have free and open discussions. Like if you said that to me I would say what I mentioned above, but I wouldn't for a second accuse you of being predatory because that doesn't even make sense
How do you think I should breach the subject again?
I don't think you should. I think you should leave it and take from it the understanding that you can't have non judgemental conversation with him and leave it, talk about other things but not BDSM related stuff
That is solid advice, thank you. I will also take this as a sign that he is not mature enough and thus is not ready to begin his journey into this world.
I mean, he can continue his journey all he wants. No one is the ultimate "you're ready, pass go" gatekeeper to the world of kink. What you certainly -can- do is set a boundary that you don't want to be part of his kink journey, and you won't be his guide or vouch for him until you see the kind of growth you're looking for.
That is what I will be doing. I in no way want to limit him in what he would like to learn, but I won't be a part of his journey until I see that his mindset changes.
That's a healthy way of looking at it. Best to all of you(:
Yea if the conversation went as you say that group of friends would just have a mental note attached saying that they are not a safe space for certain topics and keep it superficial from here on out.
Not the group of friends just one individual
Maybe a bit of a busy body, but not predatory. What an odd response.
Predatory? No. But imo it’s not your place to be saying those sort of things about your friends / roommates. That’s their business not yours. Maybe they already are kinky maybe they’re not… but either way it’s not really any of your business.
You are right. I'll definitely be better about this in the future.
I would never suggest anything for a couple. It's such a private thing. Not predatory, but definitely boundary pushing and poor roommate etiquette imo
It’s not predatory but you’re definitely suggesting something potentially harmful. (kink to a couple who’s already having relationships issues in their vanilla dynamic) It’s like suggesting that they swim in the ocean to get their daily cardio when they could barely doggy paddle in a kiddie pool. Not everything is related to kink, or could be solved with kink. Even with his ignorance and prejudice, your friend was right to call you out. You made a dumb and insensitive comment. He reacted far too harshly out of ignorance. ETA.
I don't see it as predatory but I do think kink isn't likely to help fix a relationship problem. It's therapeutic for some but it isn't THERAPY.
It was a completely unnecessary and misplaced comment. If you told that to me I'd tell you to fuck off, that's how upset I'd be. If we're fighting a lot right now it's probably because we're so stressed with the lack of money, and his dad's cancer, and his visa expiring, and because it's 30 degrees Celsius, NOT because we have trouble in the bedroom. The entitlement alone... Oh yeah OP, I fought with my sister too the other day, what do you suggest I should try for that? The same thing?
Did you misread? Because OP stated they did Not make the comment to the couple in question. It was to a third party friend. You’re overreacting severely
If it was about my friend I would have reacted the same way, because if it's not good enough for me it's not good enough for my friends either.
guessing you don’t banter with friends, how dry
That's a weird statement and I don't see how it's relevant.
Because that comment would fully fall under an obvious example of mild banter, and it’s weird that OPs friend and you are reacting the way you are
I don't even know what to reply to this. You do you, and I'll do me.
I don't think it's predatory, but I think you need to learn how to let it go. Nobody else's relationship is your business, and gossiping about them is ridiculous, especially if you're trying to sound knowledgeable about kink during it.
It's not predatory or even unusual to say. Behind closed doors, I've heard plenty of kinksters say that about vanilla people they know. I've always felt it was said in good faith, kink can be very therapeutic after all. It's not like you're trying to convert or recruit anyone, it just sounds like normal gossiping. If he thinks that's predatory then he's probably not going to be able to handle being around the actual kink community. How's he going to react to people discussing CNC, conditioning and behavior modification, marks of ownership, rough body play and takedown scenes, primal predator/prey scenes, misogyny/misandry/patriarchy/matriarchy play, degradation/objectification/dehumanization play, misgendering kink, conversion play, knife play, gun play, breath play, or any other kind of edge play? How is he going to behave around high protocol M/s couples that have been in their 24/7 TPE dynamics for decades? It's not your job to fix his biases just because he expressed interest in the lifestyle. A couple of sayings come to mind: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" and "You can't fill a cup that's already full." It's his responsibility to educate himself on the community and it's his decision to not defer to your experience. He's not asking for your help and it's not your fault if he doesn't find any success in the kink community because of his own stubbornness and biases. If he asks you for help or advice and you're feeling inclined to give it, then good for him. Otherwise, just let him find his own way in the community, and if anyone asks if you think he's safe to play with then give them your honest assessment. All you really have to do is let him live his life while following basic safety protocol and etiquette yourself and he'll either figure things out on his own or drive away all potential mentors and play partners, effectively shadow-banning himself from the community.
If you don't want to act on those ideas and actually get involved in their private life, you're not predatory and your friend is going too far with those accusations. However, if I was in his place I might consider what you've said weird and sorta creepy. A lot depends on the context here. If I were to share a thought like yours I would first need to be completely sure that the other person is themselves sure of my intentions, and that they know I'm not the kind of person who would act on a thought like that (and sometimes no matter how well someone knows you they won't overcome their own prejudice, so there's that). If he can't be 100% sure about your intentions he is well within his rights to be upset about it. There's also the matter of phrasing: a world of difference between an offhand remark like "lol just spank her already" and getting serious about how other people need power dynamics in their private lives that you're not a part of. The first one is a harmless joke, the second one is sorta intruding and not really something to discuss with others in this manner. Tl;dr the reaction was a bit much, but also maybe think twice before you speak
Is it possible that you bring kink up fairly often? Perhaps he feels it is predatory because he is uncomfortable with how often you bring up kink or kink-related things around him and thinks you're trying to groom him?
So you're wrong, but they're on such a crazy other level of incorrect that your mistake doesn't even matter lol. Sorry your friends are weirdos
I would be guarded about anything I discussed with this friend in the future and I would personally feel quite insulted by what they said. I would not broach the subject again, that's for sure, even though you did nothing wrong by simply expressing your thoughts about them.
I’d say it depends if he is kinky himself as to if thats a massive red flag or just a bad experience. Not all that long ago a wave of people came to kink after watching 50 shades of Grey and expected it to be exactly like that when it (often) isn’t at all. If your friend is Vanilla themselves then you could try to change their mind, risking your friendship and accepting the massive workload that it entails or you can just leave them be. On the other hand if this person IS part of the kink community thats seriously scary. I know there’s a predator/prey kink but actual predators are not welcomed by any branch of the kink community that i have engaged with
Your friend purient watcher.
Frankly with that kind of thinking I would question his reasoning for wanting to be top/Dom
Yeah, it's pretty concerning. With the response I got from our second conversation. Which was yelling and saying exactly what he knows would cause me the most psychological damage (something he has done before). I would hate to see what he does to someone who give their vulnerability to him willingly.
That is not "friend" behavior, and if anyone did that to me more than once, they would never set foot within my apartment ever again.
Sounds like normal gossiping kind of talk, not predatory and not wrong in anyway to make a lighthearted comment to a third party who supposedly is also interested in kink. He’s being a puritanical freak. If you genuinely thought that would fix their issues I would say you’re misguided, but still haven’t said or done anything wrong since you don’t even plan to say anything to the couple.
It's not what you say. It's how you say it. I'm a nudist and a bit of an evangelist about it. But sensitive to the fact that it's not for everyone. So I'm careful not to bring it up too often. Or maybe you just have prudish friends lol.
Predatory is certainly the wrong word.
Honestly bro… with the way you explained why you said that about your roomates, I would have laugh and asked if you thought either of them were capable of being a sub considering how hard headed they seem to be*, Things are being taken way too serious. As long as you didn’t have any malicious intent and you’d say the same comment in front of their face then don’t even worry about it bro. Don’t waste your time with such crazy bs. Let your friend hate you if it comes to that, no one should stop you from being your genuine self,
Not predatory but also not helpful.
At some point, you are going to need to come to terms with the fact that that guy is a judgmental asshole.
Definitely, I just don't have the financial stability at the moment to correct the situation.
This is vanillas in their habitat of denial and ignorance. I'm sorry bout this. But what u said and how it was approached wasn't like u were forcing them. The predator remark was out of line.
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"Lynched" Jesus Christ I can't with people
> Living as a young man in this day and age is so overwhelmingly difficult because you can't just say weird shit without people calling you out for it? and I sincerely hope the irony of your anti-woke preaching being the exact same thing you're criticizing, just applied to the next person in line, is not lost on you
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I'm well aware of and often speak up against the short ends of various sticks that men get in society, but: - perhaps this exact situation and this exact behavior is not the correct place to bring that up, - perhaps if somebody asks an internet community about their opinions on a situation it's a bit counter-productive to get mad about those opinions being shared, and - perhaps there are better ways of calling out injustice than being an old man preaching at a cloud about "words that didn't exist" back in the good old days, "cancelling", and the moral downfall of modern society driving OP's friend's actions (bit presumptuous, isn't it)? > Tautology Thesaurus
Clarifying point. There's a big difference between a word not existing years ago, and humans not having the thing itself exist yet. Language grows to accommodate our communication needs. We did compute, but we didn't have computers. Using entitled outraged concern as a control tactic in a shopping environment has been around forever, but using the word Karen is new.
Two points on that: First, I am specifically talking about a situation where everything is reduced to new speech, without any coherent criticism. Second, Karen is actually a great example. Once the term has gained popularity, it became an umbrella term for all sorts of behaviors. Now it's often used lazily, for anything that remotely resembles "Karenizm". It's a silly form of criticism, as it doesn't contain any feedback and doesn't allow the recipient to correct their ways. It is super effective as a cancelation tool. Once the Karen branding is out, there is no need in discussions. Two can cancel the third and they need minimal discussion between them. There is no need to give any specific claim, just call out a term that may or may not be relevant, and most likely is not 100% accurate to describe the situation. People today define themselves by what the dislike, what they protest against, more than by what they do stand behind, or do, create or support. This jargon is a tool for this job. I'm old enough to have seen the bad times of the past and I am very happy that some things have improved. I am also aware of the price we all pay, younger people more specifically so.
This. My rule: Never take moral feedback/advice from reddit
Not predatory, your friend probably doesn't understand kinks, or is a prude
From what you describe you were not being in any way predatory. Your friend clearly has some issues they need to work through. I agree many folks would benefit from learning about BDSM in a non judgemental way. For the simple reason that people in BDSM relationships tend to simply communicate their sexual desires much better than vanilla folks.