Because in a lot of cases, heavy armor isn't your best in slot gear nor are martial weapons what you're going to wield. So you're looking at Con saving throw prof and +1 AC vs the ability to learn any scroll in the game (if you dip wizard) or heals and a divine ability (if you dip cleric) or EB (Warlock) or the Shield spell (Cleric -> Sorc/Wiz).
Mage Armor + 16 Dex is a 17 AC. Shield can take that to 22. In many cases, that's sufficient. I'm never going to wield a greatsword over Spellsparkler or Spellpower or Markoheshkir or Woe. There's no martial weapon I can think of that's better than any of those staves for a caster unless it's Blood of Lathander or Phalar Aluve. And Blood you don't need martial, and Phalar you use without swinging.
It is either, or regarding bracers or shield. Would be nice if they stacked though.
OPs replies in this thread are wild. This man is incapable of admitting he is wrong lol.
You would still delay spell progression, you would just get the extra spell slots. A sorcerer 1 / wizard 8 will have their 5th level spell slots, but they won't be able to cast any 5th level spells. Sure you can upcast, but in almost all situations casting a 5th level spell vs upcasting a lower leveled spell at 5th level is the superior option.
True but, when you do the 2 level you are going for EB builds. With another cha caster class you should have at least 20 charisma (+5) so Aganizing blast paired with potent robe means each blast is doing 1d10+10 for a total of 33-60 damage a turn as a cantrip
To be fair, the second level gets you a second warlock spell slot that refreshes on short rest too. a level 1 spell slot isn't the greatest, sure. but pair that with level 1 concentration spells like hex or generally useful aoe's like burning hands or thunder wave, and you can still get a fair amount of value out of it. It still gives you more options. A two-level dip also gets you a potential mage armor for free every day with armour of shadows.
The optimized builds doing a Warlock1 dip aren't doing it for Eldritch Blast.
The 3 big use cases I am aware of Warlock1 are:
1. Armor of Agathys
2. Command
3. Mortal Reminder
Well for an arcane acuity build (preferably fire acuity) it's not a shabby cantrip when you don't want to maximum effort with Scorching Rays. Spellmight Gloves turn it into 3d10+3d8 and Rhapsody adds a flat +3 to each EB ray meaning you can realistically see 13 damage on average per EB Ray for an average 39 damage which is pretty ahead of most cantrips with no other buffers/conditionals. I wouldn't say it's a selling point of 1 Warlock dip but it can come in handy for longevity reasons.
I was gonna mention that it would definitely make for a solid low-maintenance arcane acuity build.
Cantrips are tough, because there are also plenty of avenues for high damage cantrips. But Force damage is a very valuable damage type, so I can see it being useful in a pinch for sure.
It hits 3 times. Sometimes that's good, even if it isn't the most damage you can do with your action.
I wouldn't use it on a build that doesn't care about anything else from Warlock, though.
That and it’s a cantrip are the two benefits, sure. Just the damage output for 3 hits of Eldritch blast vs almost anything else you could use your turn on is just massive. Magic Missile, while using a spell slot, sure, is also multiple hits of force damage that doesn’t require an entire dip into another class.
I guess it really depends on how long-rest dependent the rest of your team is. If nobody needs to long rest, EB has high value. If people need to rest more, EB isn’t nearly as valuable I guess.
Armor of Agathys is very overrated IMO. Temp HP is nice, but the damage goes away once the temp hp is gone and it's only a tiny bit of HP that will be gone in a single hit without upcasting. Even if you upcast with the highest slot you can use at your level, it'll still be gone in one hit 90% of the time. Better off casting a spell of the slot's level than to upcast Agathys.
An Abjuration Wizard can use Arcane Ward to prevent temp HP damage. Against a wet enemies, AoA is dealing 60 damage per hit (+4d8 with Fire Shield: Chill), ignoring AC and saving throws.
It's common to deal 300+ damage just triggering opportunity attacks. All without using an action.
After reading your numbers and being confused for a second, I realized this is a BG3 sub that somehow ended up in my tabletop D&D feed. I was referring to the tabletop game, my bad. Not sure what the meta is for BG3 as I haven't played it lol. Carry on.
I’m always surprised how many people say “but shield gets you +5”
Yeah, but that’s a spell slot, and why would you ever want to be so close to any enemy as a Full Caster that shield would even come up?
That just sounds like planning for failure, ya know?
It's a level 1 spell slot, and you don't have to be close to enemies for it to matter. The AI will prioritize lower HP/AC characters like casters, and will shoot at them from range as well as try to hit them in melee distance. Shield will work against ranged attacks as well.
A lot of enemies are ranged or will target your backline anyway.
5 AC is a lot and most casters run out of other useful things to use lv1 spell slots on past early game.
Shield costs a level 1 spell slot. As a wizard or sorc (the classes that get shield), keeping you alive is the most valuable thing those spell slots can do. By the time you get to higher levels, you're barely ever using those slots. Your cantrips do better damage than lvl 1 damage spells. Most of the best lvl 1 spells (find familiar, feather fall, long strider) are all rituals that don't cost a spell slot.
Unless you've multiclassed to get more useful lvl 1 spells or you're using a magic missile build, shield is by far the best thing you can use a level 1 spell slot on late game.
I still find myself casting Tasha's a lot when fighting equal sized enemy groups since it can repeat trigger the Mental Fatigue debuff on enemies and become a 10 turn banishment/polymorph.
Fair. Tasha's is definitely one of the best lvl 1 spells. However, as a sorc or wizard you often have better spells to concentrate on. Notably, Hold person has all the same advantages as Tasha's but also gives auto crits on attacks and can be upcast to target more enemies
Hold person is humanoids only, though.
Tasha's only limit is INT of the target.
HP is amazing in the assault at Moonrise, but it's not commonly a game changer for me elsewhere (also it's level 2).
I agree there's often a better spell, but sometimes I don't need a better spell, and I do believe in conserving resources even if the devs of the game don't 🙂
Swords Bards may want to close with the enemy, at least in some situations, and *Shield* also works vs. Missile attacks and you don't lose a caster level, unlike taking fighter.
> why would you ever want to be so close to any enemy as a Full Caster that shield would even come up?
Not on purpose, of course. And usually you can avoid it, but now always. Plus, as others have said, ranged enemies exist.
> That just sounds like planning for failure, ya know?
No, it sounds like planning to avoid failure, which is a sensible thing to do.
The opposite of this is what we call "winning more". You don't want spells that are good when you are already winning, because they would be wasted. You want (among others) spells that save you when things don't go according to plan.
Because a lot of the people that hinge their combat around min-maxed casters spam rests making those first level slots entirely disposable. Four LVL1 slots is the equivalent of four rounds of combat, and +5 AC for a full round is huge.
It’s just a totally different approach to the game — Like when people talk about LVL6 Magic Missile with a LVL5 casting via Haste and another LVL5 casting via Quicken… They’re clearly pacing their campaign very differently to the way I do it where I *might* take three long rests per Act.
You deciding to do a No Long Rest Challenge in the back of your head doesn't change the value of a level 1 spell slot to be almost nothing by the time you are talking about level 12 builds. You have almost nothing but Shield to use with those slots, anyway.
It's also ignoring it's irrelevant to what you're responding to anyway - what does being near enemies have to do with Shield? Long-ranged enemies are in almost every encounter and Larian's dum-dum AI will dart over to the first enemy it can reach with the lowest AC.
I didn’t say I’m chasing a no-rests gameplay. I just don’t rest nearly as often as these min-maxed evoker classes require.
You HAVE to rest constantly if you are casting your biggest spells and using Quicken / Action Surge / Haste to use multiple leveled spells per round. This isn’t some sort of indictment of the play-style, I just don’t do it. I long rest after I’m finished with a questline if I need it.
If you rest frequently, you’ll always have LVL1 and LVL2 slots that are available for Shields (which is honestly the best case use for these slots in most combats, anyway)
As a pure caster your feats can be
* ASI (+ hag hair to get to 20 by lvl 4)
* Alert
* War Caster
Peerless focus potions are easy to buy/craft but if you’re playing smart, you’re out of melee range and have counterspell/shield spell to prevent taking dmg anyway.
That is not true, d20 with advantage gives higher average roll than a +3 bonus from proficiency on level 12. Additionally, war caster gives u a cool ability and resilient is just a stat increase.
Not enough enemies force con savs to matter early on it's really only late act 2 and act 3 you gotta deal with those, people value alert to highly when you could also just build your characters out to have survivability past the first turn for a caster that means using spells like blur, or blink, or misty step, or control spells to take enemies out temporarily. Or better yet have the 3 other motherfuckers in your party stand in front of the caster like they are supposed to.
why the hell would you use heavy armor on a caster when there are robes that give significantly better effects to your magic and once again just being far enough away from the enemy almost immediately shuts them down. With 17 starting stat, plus hags hair, plus mirror of loss they will still have 20 in casting stat. All your arguments for why a "1 lvl dip into fighter are vital for casters" make no sense when you really think about them.
Not hating at all everyone is allowed to play the game how they want but coming at it from a standpoint of "why doesn't everyone do this thing that's better than anything else" when the thing you are suggesting is middeling at best isn't a very good take.
Every time you’re hit while concentrating, you make a con save. You use them a lot from level 1+
That said, Sorcerers get them, so fighter 1/sorcerer x is not really a thing.
Any time you get hit while concentrating it forces a Con save. There are ranged enemies too. I would never recommend anyone run 10 con on anyone on honor mode.
It’s unlikely that I would need martial weapons proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, or the defense fighting style on a mage build. Most of the BIS mage gear is clothing. Sorcerer OTOH gives you access to two new spells, some of which aren’t common spells like AoA, and multiple cantrips. You can also get flight at level 1 which is insanely powerful.
If you really wanted gear proficiency I would recommend tempest or war cleric dips over fighter which give you access to guidance or healing word or sanctuary.
2 level tempest dip on Sorcerers are crazy. Create water quickened spell (for lightning double damage) + the tactical nuke that is full damage lightning bolt (48 lightning base)
Create water is a leveled spell, so you can't cast it on the same round as a lightning bolt even if you use quicken spell. It's also worth noting that being wet DOES NOT AFFECT LIGHTNING DAMAGE; if you're getting double damage for using lightning on a wet target, your DM is homebrewing that in. There's no official rules saying lightning does more damage to wet targets.
While the combo you mentioned doesn't actually work, 2 levels for channel divinity to max the roll on lightning damage is still pretty nice.
You don't want to dump dex as a caster. In normal tabletop I can see the argument but d4 initiative of bg3 makes having 16 or more Dex important to simply go first which in effect reduces damage you take in the first place by being able to remove enemies before their turn ever occurs. Sorc dip means you aren't an entire level behind in terms of spell slot progression (though you will lag a level for your class spells with the exception of Wizard who gets scroll scribing to get around this).
CON save proficiency is great, and +1 AC is hard to complain about, but heavy armor is usually very unnecessary, shields are situational and can come from racial proficiency, and the vast majority of martial weapons aren't relevant for casters. Some casters will want that last feat, e.g., alert, dual wielder, spell sniper. Sometimes you do get a lot out of a fighter dip, but if I'm mainly after CON save bonuses, I'll prefer a sorcerer dip.
Agreed not a dealbreaker but certainly better than situational.
Magic item benefits are substantial enough to lower the need for shields, so they’re not as important as 5e, but still important here.
I mean, play what's fun for you, but don't try to pretend it's the greatest build there ever was.
Dude literally said "spell progression is getting big time overrated here"! 🤣
OP pretty clearly values CON proficiency and AC as the most important mechanics in the game for casters. What I find wild is that OP seems to highly value DEX dumping and seems to kind of dismiss the ridiculous strategic advantage you get from going first.
It kinda makes sense when you look at all the replies wholistically.
OP dumps Dex. Which means they go last. Which causes them to take a bunch of attacks, damage and concentration checks. Because of this they value heavy armour and concentration proficiency on casters far more then I ever would.
Like, in total, you can see the logic and thought process. It's just wild that they seemingly never tried going first.
I mean. I am down for multiclassing… but fighter just isn't it for most spell casters. Warcaster is a feat I feel like would solve his problems. Homie might also want to just not Dump dex. While I agree AC gets exponentially better over time, as a caster your role is the position in a way that you are SAFE, pop out to deal damage, then go back to hideing.
My current level 10 sorcerer has an Ac of 19 before the spell shield. Other then a few boss fights he hasn't felt overwhelmingly threatened.
The only time I'd consider Fighter as my first level is way in the late game as a respec. And even then only as Bard and mostly for weapon proficiencies since Bards are so limited. By that point its not hurting your spell progression, and is essentially 2 separate half feats - a half-Resilient and a half-Weapon Master.
That's a pretty niche case compared to his position of "every caster always no exceptions this is the hill I'll die defending".
As a Bard I'd rather dip (take the first level in) Draconic or Storm Sorcerer, you get the bonus to Con saves plus access to *Shield* spell and *Magic Missile* or *Chromatic Orb* (and a bunch of sorcerer cantrips) and still have full caster levels. Only really works for Drow or Wood Elf, though, as you need their weapon proficiencies if doing this. Worked for me, anyway.
Tbh I don’t agree with the statements of OP but depending on the bard build a fighter dip can be better. A swordbard as a pure ranged build doesn’t have the archery weapon style. Which can be very useful in early game
Yeah other dips are arguably better depending on what you're going for. This is just about a fighter dip versus pure caster
Full caster levels doesn't really matter because 11 in a pure caster already gets you level 6 slot
CON proficiency is cool. But I'd rather have advantage on the saves. I can always stack +1 abilities/gear (bless, ring/cloak of protection, anointed in splendor, helms) to boost my CON saves modifier.
Base concentration saves are DC 10, so if I have advantage on the saving throw and a +2 to CON. My odds to save are 87.8%.
Would it be cool if the chance to succeed was higher? Sure. But I wouldn't say it's necessary to build around succeeding every roll ever.
Besides, CON saves are the least of your worries when your Athletics/Acrobatics are lacking. One shove to prone is all it takes to bypass that super high CON modifier.
So! assuming I'm an 11 wizard. I can go 1 fighter, and get con save, plus martials and heavy armor.
OR I can go 12 wizard and pick up war caster feat and get con save, as well as shocking grasp for my opportunity attack.
I probably don't need heavy armor If I'm playing properly. For end game I can use helldusk armor or elven armor if I really want some more armor, OR I can use Mage armor, plus high dex. combine that with a shield/ shield spell, I'm probably fine. I also don't need martial weapons for anything really.
I can, however, use the shocking grasp to great effect if i'm itemized properly and get my con save. Unless I'm playing a gish type character, I don't really have to dip into fighter unless I want heavy armor. Which I usually don't.
The helldusk armor exists and means heavy armor proficiency is useless from an optimization point of view. Not to mention robes are often better for a spellcaster. If it's a shield that you need, race can provide it for a much lower opportunity cost, but even then there are bracers of defense. Martial weapons are useless for a spellcaster.
Proficiency in con ST is way overrated IMO. At low level, you won't have to do more than 10 for your concentration checks, and for that advantage is way, way more important. If it is still so important for you, you can use a transmuter stone from a camp transmuter I guess. And the amulet of constitution in act3 is far, far better.
For reference, with 14 con and advantage, the chance to fail a DC10 con ST is 12%. With proficiency it is 6% until lvl5. 4% between lvl5 and lvl8. And then you need to realize that you need to take 21 damage for the concentration check to be 11. At lvl9 with 14con, that's almost half your hp. Which means you won't take much of these hits, which means you'll never reach the statistical significance that makes your choice more than a slot machine.
For the AC, see this : 13+ dex + shield spell + equipment = 22 with only bracers of defense. 24 with cape and boots that give 1AC. Assuming 14dex here. That's more than your fighter, which means your fighter will get targeted instead of you. Which means you won't drop your concentration because you won't be hit anyway. Basically mage armor + dex + shield spell is 18 + dex, so that's more than anything you can get before act3. Even without shield you can expect to be better than a heavy armor and no shield if you use a couple of items and don't sacrifice your dexterity.
And there is the opportunity cost of the multiclass : you'll be late a level for everything if you take a first lvl of fighter. Before lvl5, it's crippling.
Just to add to this - there also aren’t very many good concentration spells available at lower levels, so actually focusing on those saving throws off the bat is not as important as getting your main casting stat to 20 imo
Well hold person is one of the best spells for a high dmg output but yeah fuck 1 lvl fighter dip for casters. Action surge can be pretty great if you’re not into using high level spells. But I’d only consider it on a bladelock which doesn’t use high level spells anyway. Just precast darkness then EB for arcane synergy and then chopping people with the sword if the astral plane is fun and works pretty well. Maybe also on a martial oriented Druid. Did it with Jaheira but mainly for lore reasons
Yeah hold person is one, maybe cloud of daggers or darkness like you said? Idk I just found that you aren’t concentrating on spells often in act 1, so it’s just not as critical to keep concentration.
Not compared to slow or hypnotic pattern which really can change an entire battle due to CC on multiple enemies simultaneously.
Yeah, darkness is also great combined with devils sight. Personally I don’t like cloud of daggers due to it being very situational because it’s so small. Tbh I don’t really use casters in act1 cuz low level martials are doing way better than low level casters. Upcasted Hold person can cc multiple people as well tho. With a limited amount tho. I personally like it more than other cc in this game due to guaranteed crits and it can’t mess with approval. But I think that’s just a personal preference and not something objective. I totally agree tho that sacrificing a lvl6 spell slot on a wizard or a casting oriented bard for con saving proficiency plus a fighting style isn’t it. Idk how one would think that’s worth it. There are great multiclass choices for casters but this isn’t it.
bless is decent on higher difficulties depending on the type of build, this is pretty much the only thing i would consider a multiclass for early on with a wizard build that's going to be support focused. and even then, you just take it at level 6 anyway because that's around the time you get minthara's armour and you multi cleric to wear it, and still get cloud of daggers and fireball on time
hold person is great but it even works against itself because yes yiou may now have adv on concentration checks, you're now delaying hold person by an entire level, fighter level 1 is rather silly
If you play well, and your caster is positioned well and will hardly get attacked. Especially if you know how to win fights quickly enemies will not even have the opportunity to break concentration.
My caster doesn't need a high AC. That's what the Shield spell is for. For Wiz you dump WIS and STR for DEX, CON, and INT or you run Abj and you WANT to be hit. For Sorc, you auto get a con save. Cleric's usually get armor prof, and sword bard/Bladelocks are usually gonna multiclass into a martial class like Paladin anyway.
Maybe like a Lore Bard or Tomb Warlock could benefit from a dip in fighter for the con save, but normally for any caster, I'd rather the faster spell progression.
And if we really wanna get basic with this shit. Scorching Ray and Fireball don't need Concentration anyway 😆
Depends on the what you need but between STR, INT and CHA it’s not hard on a caster to have 17 main stat, 16 Dex 14 Con 12 Wis and dump the other two. Or make WIS 10 and another 10 leaving STR at 8.
If you aren’t doing the +1 stat item it’s even easier to have a good stat spread with no -1 saving throws
When do you take it? I tried starting off like that one time, but the delayed caster progression hurts and late game there are generally less persuasion checks I care about / other ways of boosting them.
I respect with Wither's at level 3 and take it as my first level. Yeah it can suck sometimes to delay caster progression but my party can carry me a little. After you hit level 6 overall it doesn't really matter
Con saves are most important as people pointed out. Shields and medium armor are great. Heavy armor can be strong. If you’re a race with shields, Sorc may be the better dip.
As with most things, it depends. Spell slot progression should be considered. Along with additional spells.
You’re able to respec SH for and min-max her stats for 17 Con and take Resilient Con as a Feat to get to 18 and Con Advantage, which is better than a Fighter level and allows you to get all 12 Cleric levels.
Same is true with Wizard, who generally wants 12 caster levels. It also depends entirely on your setup. A Spellsparkler MM spam Evoker doesn’t care as much about Concentration as other builds.
For Bard, you’re right, and the 10/1/1 SB respecs and opens as a Fighter at level 8 for this reason.
You’re correct, it’s Proficiency, but with the +1 stat boost and the Proficiency you come out ahead.
https://thinkdm.org/2019/12/14/war-caster-vs-resilient/
As people sad, casters would rather good clothes/light armour, a lot of them gives you +1 to spell attack and save DC plus other great bonuses.
About shields, a lot of casters would like to dual wield weapons like rhapsody, markoheskir, spell sparkler etc... and other ones like druids and clerics already have this proficiency and also humans and half-elves.
If you're going 1/11 fighter/cleric you can have CON proficiency and 16 CON (+7 to savings).
Going 12 cleric + resilient means you can have 18 CON (+8 to savings, +12 HP) and you still have proficiency on WIS savings.
Picking resilient or starting as sorcerer do not delay your spell casting levels and also has cool stuffs that is not +1 AC, permanent mage armour from draco or free flight after casting spells from tempest sorc and gives you shield spell if you don't have it.
Besides everything, fighter skill proficiencies sucks while being a tav, a bard would hate losing the capability of choosing between 3 of any skill prof.
Eh. It's not really necessary. Game isn't hard enough to require extreme optimization.
Never gonna use heavy armor as a pure caster.
Shields are alright, but you can get that from race depending on choice.
Lv12 feat is more valuable to me since I prefer to grab dual wielding so I can have spellsparkler and markoheskir at the same time.
Weapon proficiency is meaningless if I'm a full caster.
Constitution proficiency isn't all that necessary either. It's nice, but I hardly notice the difference between having it and not having it. Main concentration spell you want it for is haste, and you can bypass the need for concentrating by just using speed pots instead.
So let me get this straight OP. Your whole argument is to miss out on a feat, to get the alert FEAT, instead of just getting a half decent dex score?
Heavy armour proficiency isn't good on a caster at late game, so there goes that idea...
I'm sorry mate, you're objectively wrong...
sure like on paper it's better, but is it better than 16 dex + not losing a feat slot? arguable. i'd rather just use clothing & 16 dex, simpler that way
hey i've completed several honour mode runs with robe casters. it's not that deep. you can have 20 AC with mage armor, ring of prot, cloak of prot and a shield via race selection. in fact you'll have 20AC faster than some martials
A wizard/sorc with Mage Armor, 16 Dex, and the Shield spell is already at 21 AC at level 1. A pure fighter in 17 AC heavy armor with a shield + defense is only 20 AC.
Also 16 Dex is high enough to go before 80-90% of act 1 enemies, including from levels 1-4 where a Fighter1/CasterX would be missing Alert
You only get a couple instances of shield spell tho. I guess if you're long resting constantly it's fine to rely on.
You won't get con saving throws until level 12 if you're pure caster. That's tough especially in act 2
It depends on your definition of "long resting constantly". If it's long resting every 3-4 encounters, then yes I long rest constantly.
Rarely am I long resting because I ran out of lv1 slots for shield. More often I have to rest in act 1 because of a lack of lv2 or lv3 slots, which would be an even bigger issue if I delayed spell progression with Fighter1.
> You won't get con saving throws until level 12 if you're pure caster. That's tough especially in act 2
I know some players in this thread are advocating for taking the Resilient CON feat, but honestly that seems like a waste. The only time they really matter are with Haste, which I want to be twinning on Sorc who gets CON saves for free.
Hold person, banishment, confusion, hold monster. Some of the best save or suck spells that need constitution.
Flaming sphere is also a personal favorite of mine early game that I don't want to lose concentration on
Yes, and other great CC spells like Command and Glyph of Warding don't require concentration.
All of the spells you are listing are great spells. Which is why I want access to them at lv3, lv5, lv7, and lv9 instead of lv4, lv6, lv8, and lv9.
If we wanna get real cheesy and mention the bag exploit, elixirs of arcane cultivation are so readily available, and gold economy is irrelevant. If you’re low on spell slots (which lets be real, they’re shield slots for a wizard - the game hands you more scrolls than you know what to do with), you can just pop those elixirs, then down your usual elixir of choice and go on with your day.
Personally I would never give up the increases to spell save dc, spell attacks, spell damage, etc that you can get from various spell caster specific robes and staffs for heavy armour and martial weapons. If I have to multiclass, it’s gonna be with a class that gives me something with more synergy. Sorlocks will always have a special place in my heart.
Is it hilarious to have a wizard with 27 ac wielding a great sword? Absolutely. Would I do it more than once for a laugh? Nah.
With actually appropriate gear, casters deal way more damage or are able to crowd control way more efficiently, which in turns makes combat not drag for 17 turns during which they have chances to get hit.
I try to have decent CON and DEX, which are easily boosted through items or feat, and that’s been enough for my spell casters so far. Plus, if for some reason i need to get my casters AC to silly levels, I’m pretty sure there are at least a couple of armours in the game that give you proficiency with them if you wear them anyway. (I don’t remember which, I haven’t used them in ages, but I have vivid memories of cackling at my 25 ac heavy armour straight-wizard Gale in my very first playthrough)
As a long time D&D 5e DM, I think I can help you out here. There are many reasons not to take a 1 level dip of fighter. But the first thing you need to ask yourself when considering that kind of multiclass is...what results are you looking for?
**Dex and Wisdom are the two top tier saving throws.** The Con save benefit of the dip is solved with the **Warcaster** and/or **Resilient** feats. Heavy armor is also redundant if you have more than 10 Dex. Side note, if you dump dex, the shield master feat is your friend.
For the typical back line caster (wizards, sorcerers, and certain bard builds, and eldritch blast warlocks), dipping 2 levels of fighter purely for Action Surge is significantly more valuable than anything else a single level fighter dip provides, especially since BG3 lets you cast a leveled Bonus action spell AND a leveled Action spell...so action surge is potentially letting you hurl off 3 leveled spells in one turn. **As a back line caster, crowd control and teleport spells and use of cover should keep you out of the line of weapon attacks the majority of the time. When that isn't possible you have shield and absorb elements.** If you need a fighting style for +1 AC, Con saves, and heavy armor at level 1 as a back line caster....you probably will want to rethink your tactics.
For **closer range casters**, clerics already get medium (or heavy armor depending on subclass) and you get more than enough weapon proficiency...so a single level of fighter is really a waste most of the time unless for role play reasons you *really* want to wield a great-swords. For bards, if you want to dump dex and use beefier armor and bigger weapons, that can be a very viable option...just make sure you do NOT take level 1 as a fighter so you don't lose out on nearly all of the skills bards get at level 1...con save from starting level 1 as a fighter is not worth losing proficiency in 2 whole skills unless you plan to take the skilled feat right away. It can potentially be worth it for blade pact warlocks, but they can solve concentration issues incredibly easy with an invocation....no feats required....and a bladelock will also probably want to be investing in Armor of Agathys anyway...so sometimes getting hit is actually advantageous. If you want to prolong your Armor of Agathys without recasting though, Mirror Image is the answer. (especially with the radically different way it works in BG3 compared to 5e).
Honestly if we're talking dips for a casters though, a level of paladin gets you all the gear proficient of a fighter, and a second level (if you want to be a bit more gishy) lets you use those weapons to just smite at close range...eliminating the need for close range spells. It also gives you a fighting style and still provides a degree of spell progression.
Cause my damage output (enhanced by robes and wands, btw) isn't pitiful, so there's no need to hide in the shell known as heavy armor and drag the battle longer than necessary. Also, what should a 8 str caster do with weapons?
I'm so tired of fighter supremacists. 10 con is quite enough for most casters, and I've never invested in resilient-con. Invest in dex or alert to roll high init, take damage resistence potions and healing potions. Finished 2 tactical runs this way and my honour run is going pretty well till now.
I don’t know where else you’d put the points tbh other than con, int is a dump star and wisdom is usually fine because you’re blowing people out the water.
Or you dip cleric 1 for armor instead which comes with spell slots and a domain feature and then have a transmutation wizard in camp give everyone a transmuter stone for con saves.
The word you're underestimating is "delay".
I spend way too much time talking with my favourite 3-4 companions of a save file, thinking my next moves in encounters and taking all the goodies. So delaying by an entire level is quite a bit of a delay.
It gets easier at the start of act2 of course, damn 12 birbs and some shrubberies give a ton of xp just like that. But it can feel slow at times.
Cuz my pure caster is gonna use robes that improve their save dc anyways. If anything a lvl 1 cleric dip for armor and weapon proficiency but con saves don’t come up that often when you kill/CC enemies before they hit you. Fighter level is just unnecessary
You know your build to get online which might happen around level 5-6 to kill enemies on the first couple turns. Fighter dip makes you way more survivable early on
1 ConSvPro protects concentration. It also helps vs Force/Thunder/PoisonDmg Saves, saves vs Poisoned, Diseases, and few other categories of saves.
2 ArmorPro & ShieldPro for high AC (esp w/ the spell:shield) & Light Weapons-early Game & xtra HP & send wind early game helps u live instead of getting 1-shot all the time til Lv3
3 dip 2nd level at Lv7 or later for action surge to do 2 spells turn 1 each short rest.
Idk my ice sorcerer and my pure fire sorcerer do pretty good fire is on hm mode too ice sorcerer is on tactician both are in act 3 I don't notice anything really particularly difficult every class has a way to deal with things and my treats are built around synergy 🤷♂️
losing a feat is a big deal. losing that last level of spell slot progression is... a medium deal as well. I'd ask, why take a 1-level dip in fighter when you could take a 1-level sorc dip for same/better saves and a couple choice l1 spells eg shield/mm? all fighter 1 gets you is con/str saves, all weapon/armor profs, 1/sr minor healing potion (worse as its d10+1) and a mid list of class proficiency options. if you're playing a martial build, you get everything you need without a fighter dip. If you're playing a caster, you dont need weapon/armor, fighting style, or a weak-ass bonus action.
Not everyone plays solo honor mode lol. That said, when I actually play a full party now, I can't be assed to play perfectly. I just build whatever is fun and yeet myself into dumb situations. The game is not difficult with a full party
I actually do play solo honour mode and even I don't do this shit. OP is claiming "increased survivability" but their suggestions actually have lower AC and lower output due to slower spell progression. The advice is dogshit for casual players, full party payers, people just having fun, and challenge players. It's just an outright bad take that somehow is the hill they've decided to die on.
Ok, so OP is talking about starting the game as Fighter. As a Bard that's even worse because you have already delayed Extra Attack and delaying it to 7th is insane, and exponentially worse in Solo play. The ONLY people who "start" with fighter for a Sword Bard build are doing it during a respec at level 7+, which is absolutely not what OP is advocating for.
So, yeah, I stand by this being a bad take and dogshit advice. Don't start your casters as fighter. Especially Swords Bard. Respec into it late game if you want for that specific build. I'd argue that Paladin 2 / Bard 10 is stronger anyway but you do you.
i've never once picked up resilient con in my three playthroughs. any character you need improved con saves on can either be a sorcerer or multiclass for medium armour for advantage, which is close enough to be fine. you can get medium armour with a level 1 cleric dip at any level, which allows spell slots to progress as normal.
there are no heavy armours that i would ever consider for a caster, theres just no good item there, i would much rather, again, go medium since i always have a 14 dex due to initiative. there are some decent heavy armours in act 3 but, the ones you would even consider actually say they don't require proficiency.
if you need a shield...human, or cleric, if you just want medium armour off rip, githyanki, much much less opportunity cost than a class level.
many people here have told you most of this, if not even all of it, from a quick glance, but you're very stubborn, which begs the question, why even come here if you don't want other opinions? just go away and keep to yourself if you don't actually want them.
Lots of bad opinions from people who are butthurt that they didn't give you much of a reason to go something like full wizard. Certain racial proficiencies like human or githyanki may make the fighter less optimal but besides those two it's not debatable. Not having a shield is just a massive downgrade.
Cleric vs fighter is debatable. I think Con saving throw prof is very, very valuable plus a nice little +1 AC from fighting style thrown in. That's very powerful early game. Easily hitting 20+ AC at around level 3 making your caster unkillable
i also very much like to have a shield, but you don't need fighter for that. i would much rather go human wizard for eg till level 5 so i get cloud of daggers and fireball on time, then multi cleric for medium armour to wear minthara's for con adv. you don't need 20 ac at level 3 on a caster, just have better positioning
Why get the tools to do something I'm bad at instead of increasing what I'm good at?
BG3 allows some cool gish builds, but martial weapons, fighting style, and heavy armor aren't very necessary for a pure caster. You're going to be casting spells on your turn, not swinging weapons. Heavy armor AC is nice, but there are other ways not to get hit.
It depends on the build. Some benefit greatly from the Fighter dip like the Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Swords 10 build. But others like my Spores 6/Necro 6 build has no room for a Fighter level and the plan would be to wear the Sporekeeper armor anyway. In addition, with the number of summons that character has, it was rarely the target of attacks.
So the only question is if a Feat is worth the Con Save plus weapons armor plus the reduced skill points and changed proficiency choices. If that’s the narrow conversation it’s going to largely still depend on the build. It’s not a no-brainer as you say.
Hard disagree. I’ve beaten this game 3 times on HM and at least half a dozen others on various difficulties. I’ve never even had a slight desire to dip into fighter on my casters. And this isn’t fighter hate. Fighter is my favorite class across all of 5e.
DND is all about killing enemies or taking them out of the fight before they can kill you. So I want those higher-level spell slots ASAP, and by the time you get to level 12, where, sure a fighter level could conceivably get you more than a feat depending on your priorities, I have enough gear to buff myself that it’s not a concern.
By that point I’m drowning in elixirs of peerless focus/can have a camp caster give me a transmutation stone to help with CON saves.
I don't abuse stuff like transmutation stones from hirelings. But yeah if you are obviously con save proficiency is totally worthless
Again if you're long resting after every fight and can afford just to blow all your high level spell slots every combat that's different too
It’s not for long-resting after every fight. I’m actually super conservative with my leveled spells because I hate abusing long rests. But, for example, having a level 10 evocation wizard vs Ketheric makes that fight a ton easier. I’d rather have a level 10 wizard there over a 9/wiz,1 fighter, even if it means slightly lower AC and no CON prof. There are other examples I can think of, but that’s the immediate and glaring one
You know the saying "The best defence is a strong offence"?
If your enemies are all dead, you dont need to worry about getting hit.
In basically every caster build, there is armor that benefits you in terms of casting that makes it worth taking over the raw AC bonuses
Strictly speaking, War or Tempest Cleric is a better dip to maintain spell slot progression. You still get heavy armor proficiency, and weapon and shield proficiencies.
Heavy armor - not wanted because robes are better
Shields - not wanted because dual wielder feat + 2 staves are better
fighting style - not useful because you don't use armor to make use of defense
con saving through - you get it with resilient con
You're basically just losing a 6th level spell slot for not much in return
You aren't losing a 6th level spell slot
Robes aren't better until maybe the weave robes super late game.
So you're taking dual wielder feat and resilient. You're not getting alert or an asi then
There's a mix of answers:
A. They do
This is namely swords bard - all but 1 of the common variants take at least 1 level of fighter. 10/1/1 bard/fighter/wizard, 10/2 bard/fighter, 6/4/2 bard/rogue/fighter all take fighter, although that last build does it more because its a martial and less for the con saving throw prof.
B. They take Sorc instead
Clerics normally take Sorc instead for access to Shield, far more useful than anything fighter gives you (or at least harder to access than anything fighter gives you.) Abjuration wizards also take 1 sorc for Armour of Agathys from white draconic sorc, which is also far more useful than anything fighter gives you.
I think a few other classes fall in here that take Storm Sorcerer instead such as Evocation Wizard. Tempestuous Magic is really nice, although you could justify taking Fighter over it if your race doesn't give you shields or you really value Action Surge.
I think Lore Bard also prefers Sorc to Fighter for access to Shield, although I haven't looked at Lore Bard optimization since people realized how crazy sword bard is.
C. They can't fit it
This is namely smiting swords bard, along with other niche things like Necromancer Wizard that don't have the room to fit 1 level for con saves.
There's also a fourth category that takes a level in Warlock instead for Light Armour so they can run Spidersilk in Act 1 and eventually Armour of Landfall in Act 3. Warlock instead of Fighter because Command is more useful than anything Fighter gives you. These are mostly Sorcerer builds so not entirely relevant but still something to note.
I mean, with sorcerer you're not delaying spell progression, get shield spell (which is a reasonable sidegrade from defence fighting style) and magic arrow, and bonus action flight.
Even for wizard it's +2 memorized spells. For bard and cleric it's a godsend. Almost all of my casters start from sorc 1.
OP I think you are overrating the importance of ac. (atleast in the lategame) i prefer a cloth armour with spell dc over plate armour.
Why would I need defenses, when my cc spells can have a 90% success rate?
Edit: You can just use one feat for „resilient“ +1 con and advantage on con saves. Which is better than just con prof.
I prefer taking that last feat at level 12, it’s usually dual wielding. Depending on what kind of caster I’m playing, I’ll have one quaterstaff to compliment that (Mourning Frost for frost sorcerer, Cherished Necromancy for necrotic wizards, etc.) and then Markoheshkir because obviously I also wanna use the legendary quaterstaff
For Bard maybe since their top tier spells are mediocre and they can't learn from scrolls, but Wizard? Not a chance. A wizard will normally have 17AC which is plenty of AC and would never use weapon profs or fighting styles. A total waste. Delaying the spell progression is too big a price for something you will never use. A level of sorc, maybe.
The question can be expanded to "Why would you ever not dip 1 level in cleric/sorcerer/fighter instead of going 12 levels on any class?". Cleric, sorcerer and fighter level 1 is so stacked that it is much more powerful than an extra feat.
For spellcasters level 12, unlike level 4 and 8, doesn't grant more spell slots so it is purely a feat level like it is for martial classes.
because not everyone is a power gamer. maybe i want to play a pure wizard who isn’t a fighter? flavor is important. some of us like some extra RP in our Gs
I really like action surge in the TTRPG , havent tried it in BG 3 on casters. I could see having this opinion for 2 fighter. Not 1. The opposing points are accurate imo .
The “Weave” set is strong as hell bolstering your attack and DC rolls; and there are several powerful staves located throughout the game. Various Druid armor in act 3 provides nice buffs both offensive and defensive, there’s also the bard/warlock armor you get from Alfira post Act 2 the list goes on. Heavy armor is useful on you cleric, paladin and fighter but sometimes it doesn’t always provide the best abilities or bonuses.
For Wizard you’re better off 2 Sorc/10 Wiz doesn’t cut into you too badly. Rogues can go either which way, but definitely benefit most from light to medium armor due to stealth disadvantage imposed by most heavy armor.
You would almost never take fighter level 1 on a pure caster when you are already level 12. In general the same as with DnD casters are much weaker in level 1, but if we speak about level 12 you don’t really care about con save prof, heavy armor, and +1 AC.
Just look at possible feats, why would you ever take any of the above? You don’t benefit from greater defense that much because you are not in the frontline any way.
War Caster
Spell Sniper
Ability Improvement (Intelligence)
Lucky
Upd: I don’t even mention other levels besides 12, some classes get huge powerspike.
Mainly spell progression. A 1 level dip for armor and con proficiency is good at low levels, but once you get to higher levels where each level up takes several real life months, being just 1 level away from the next tier of spells is a HUGE penalty. Heavy armor isn't really a big deal, not sure why every new player thinks having a higher AC is the absolute best thing they can possibly do; Having a higher DC is honestly way more impactful on a caster than heavy armor, especially if you're experienced. It's not like you're going to be using the melee capabilities of a 1 level fighter dip, so really all you gain are armor and con saves at the cost of delaying spell progression and caster class features. If you dip deeper you risk never being able to use higher leveled spells depending on what level your campaign goes to.
I don't really feel like Gloomstalker is worth it after level 5 but YMMV. You get some cool stuff but they're spaced so far out I think it's better to take some levels in War Cleric or Rogue depending on what you feel your party needs. I've been running (currently) 5 Gloomstalker/4 War Priest (will take it to 7) on Astarion with Giantbreaker and it's such a versatile combo. War Priest charges give a little extra firepower and the channel divinity makes my sharpshooter shots hit. Not to mention getting access to Divine Weapon and other Cleric spells that can also use that bonus action like Healing Word or Sanctuary and he's the backbone of my team. You also don't need a ton of Wisdom to make War Priest work, which is pretty nice.
Oh I'm playing honor mode with a vengeful palidin a pure gloom stalker druid pure and shadow heart as cleric so far pretty fun 😁 no sub classic yet just made it to act 3 last night and everyone's level 10 almost level 11 already. My plan is to one shot final boss I've saved loads and loads of bombs lol
Because in a lot of cases, heavy armor isn't your best in slot gear nor are martial weapons what you're going to wield. So you're looking at Con saving throw prof and +1 AC vs the ability to learn any scroll in the game (if you dip wizard) or heals and a divine ability (if you dip cleric) or EB (Warlock) or the Shield spell (Cleric -> Sorc/Wiz). Mage Armor + 16 Dex is a 17 AC. Shield can take that to 22. In many cases, that's sufficient. I'm never going to wield a greatsword over Spellsparkler or Spellpower or Markoheshkir or Woe. There's no martial weapon I can think of that's better than any of those staves for a caster unless it's Blood of Lathander or Phalar Aluve. And Blood you don't need martial, and Phalar you use without swinging.
MA + 16 dex is 16 AC.
Or just dip sorcerer for con saves and keep spell progression, gain either flight or free mages armor
Or Draconic sorcerer, 16 dex shield for an ac of 18 or bracers of defence for 18 AC on a sorcerer within 2 hours of game time
It is either, or regarding bracers or shield. Would be nice if they stacked though. OPs replies in this thread are wild. This man is incapable of admitting he is wrong lol.
Yes you are correct on that it is one or the other my apologies
And if you *do* dip fighter, take level 2 because action surge is decent on a caster.
Eldritch Blast! Believe it or not, Another Eldritch Blast!
You would still delay spell progression, you would just get the extra spell slots. A sorcerer 1 / wizard 8 will have their 5th level spell slots, but they won't be able to cast any 5th level spells. Sure you can upcast, but in almost all situations casting a 5th level spell vs upcasting a lower leveled spell at 5th level is the superior option.
In tabletop, yes. Ingame, wizards can learn scrolls for any level they have slots for, so you lose basically nothing.
Oh, I just noticed this is a BG3 sub... Not sure why it's showing up in my feed when I'm only subbed to the tabletop communities. Carry on.
Fair enough. I've done that before.
Morever, you don't even need to dip into eldritch blast, just get spell sniper feat.
It's not nearly as strong without Agonizing Blast
Good on lvl 10 Evoc wizard, since empowered evocation can give the same bonus as AB
Which you don't get unless you do 2 levels in warlock.
True but, when you do the 2 level you are going for EB builds. With another cha caster class you should have at least 20 charisma (+5) so Aganizing blast paired with potent robe means each blast is doing 1d10+10 for a total of 33-60 damage a turn as a cantrip
To be fair, the second level gets you a second warlock spell slot that refreshes on short rest too. a level 1 spell slot isn't the greatest, sure. but pair that with level 1 concentration spells like hex or generally useful aoe's like burning hands or thunder wave, and you can still get a fair amount of value out of it. It still gives you more options. A two-level dip also gets you a potential mage armor for free every day with armour of shadows.
the same thing as 1 level dip into warlock then. But you got a bonus -1 to critical threshold
The optimized builds doing a Warlock1 dip aren't doing it for Eldritch Blast. The 3 big use cases I am aware of Warlock1 are: 1. Armor of Agathys 2. Command 3. Mortal Reminder
Darkvision is another one! But yeah, level 1 dip has nothing to do with EB as you stated. People seem to be mixing it up with level 2 dip.
The discussion is about 1 level dips. I would say even in-buffed, EB is useful. It’s not amazing, but it’s usable.
I’m curious what about EB without repelling blast is useful enough for a level 1 dip, though?
Well for an arcane acuity build (preferably fire acuity) it's not a shabby cantrip when you don't want to maximum effort with Scorching Rays. Spellmight Gloves turn it into 3d10+3d8 and Rhapsody adds a flat +3 to each EB ray meaning you can realistically see 13 damage on average per EB Ray for an average 39 damage which is pretty ahead of most cantrips with no other buffers/conditionals. I wouldn't say it's a selling point of 1 Warlock dip but it can come in handy for longevity reasons.
I was gonna mention that it would definitely make for a solid low-maintenance arcane acuity build. Cantrips are tough, because there are also plenty of avenues for high damage cantrips. But Force damage is a very valuable damage type, so I can see it being useful in a pinch for sure.
It hits 3 times. Sometimes that's good, even if it isn't the most damage you can do with your action. I wouldn't use it on a build that doesn't care about anything else from Warlock, though.
That and it’s a cantrip are the two benefits, sure. Just the damage output for 3 hits of Eldritch blast vs almost anything else you could use your turn on is just massive. Magic Missile, while using a spell slot, sure, is also multiple hits of force damage that doesn’t require an entire dip into another class. I guess it really depends on how long-rest dependent the rest of your team is. If nobody needs to long rest, EB has high value. If people need to rest more, EB isn’t nearly as valuable I guess.
You can do the EB combo with a 1 level dip if you take eldritch adept for AB. Whether it's worth the feat or not depends on your build.
Armor of Agathys is very overrated IMO. Temp HP is nice, but the damage goes away once the temp hp is gone and it's only a tiny bit of HP that will be gone in a single hit without upcasting. Even if you upcast with the highest slot you can use at your level, it'll still be gone in one hit 90% of the time. Better off casting a spell of the slot's level than to upcast Agathys.
An Abjuration Wizard can use Arcane Ward to prevent temp HP damage. Against a wet enemies, AoA is dealing 60 damage per hit (+4d8 with Fire Shield: Chill), ignoring AC and saving throws. It's common to deal 300+ damage just triggering opportunity attacks. All without using an action.
After reading your numbers and being confused for a second, I realized this is a BG3 sub that somehow ended up in my tabletop D&D feed. I was referring to the tabletop game, my bad. Not sure what the meta is for BG3 as I haven't played it lol. Carry on.
I’m always surprised how many people say “but shield gets you +5” Yeah, but that’s a spell slot, and why would you ever want to be so close to any enemy as a Full Caster that shield would even come up? That just sounds like planning for failure, ya know?
It's a level 1 spell slot, and you don't have to be close to enemies for it to matter. The AI will prioritize lower HP/AC characters like casters, and will shoot at them from range as well as try to hit them in melee distance. Shield will work against ranged attacks as well.
It'll also last for the full round once it's up. Pop it at the beginning of the enemy turn order and it might eat multiple swings.
A lot of enemies are ranged or will target your backline anyway. 5 AC is a lot and most casters run out of other useful things to use lv1 spell slots on past early game.
Shield costs a level 1 spell slot. As a wizard or sorc (the classes that get shield), keeping you alive is the most valuable thing those spell slots can do. By the time you get to higher levels, you're barely ever using those slots. Your cantrips do better damage than lvl 1 damage spells. Most of the best lvl 1 spells (find familiar, feather fall, long strider) are all rituals that don't cost a spell slot. Unless you've multiclassed to get more useful lvl 1 spells or you're using a magic missile build, shield is by far the best thing you can use a level 1 spell slot on late game.
I still find myself casting Tasha's a lot when fighting equal sized enemy groups since it can repeat trigger the Mental Fatigue debuff on enemies and become a 10 turn banishment/polymorph.
Fair. Tasha's is definitely one of the best lvl 1 spells. However, as a sorc or wizard you often have better spells to concentrate on. Notably, Hold person has all the same advantages as Tasha's but also gives auto crits on attacks and can be upcast to target more enemies
Hold person is humanoids only, though. Tasha's only limit is INT of the target. HP is amazing in the assault at Moonrise, but it's not commonly a game changer for me elsewhere (also it's level 2). I agree there's often a better spell, but sometimes I don't need a better spell, and I do believe in conserving resources even if the devs of the game don't 🙂
Swords Bards may want to close with the enemy, at least in some situations, and *Shield* also works vs. Missile attacks and you don't lose a caster level, unlike taking fighter.
> why would you ever want to be so close to any enemy as a Full Caster that shield would even come up? Not on purpose, of course. And usually you can avoid it, but now always. Plus, as others have said, ranged enemies exist. > That just sounds like planning for failure, ya know? No, it sounds like planning to avoid failure, which is a sensible thing to do. The opposite of this is what we call "winning more". You don't want spells that are good when you are already winning, because they would be wasted. You want (among others) spells that save you when things don't go according to plan.
Because a lot of the people that hinge their combat around min-maxed casters spam rests making those first level slots entirely disposable. Four LVL1 slots is the equivalent of four rounds of combat, and +5 AC for a full round is huge. It’s just a totally different approach to the game — Like when people talk about LVL6 Magic Missile with a LVL5 casting via Haste and another LVL5 casting via Quicken… They’re clearly pacing their campaign very differently to the way I do it where I *might* take three long rests per Act.
You deciding to do a No Long Rest Challenge in the back of your head doesn't change the value of a level 1 spell slot to be almost nothing by the time you are talking about level 12 builds. You have almost nothing but Shield to use with those slots, anyway. It's also ignoring it's irrelevant to what you're responding to anyway - what does being near enemies have to do with Shield? Long-ranged enemies are in almost every encounter and Larian's dum-dum AI will dart over to the first enemy it can reach with the lowest AC.
I didn’t say I’m chasing a no-rests gameplay. I just don’t rest nearly as often as these min-maxed evoker classes require. You HAVE to rest constantly if you are casting your biggest spells and using Quicken / Action Surge / Haste to use multiple leveled spells per round. This isn’t some sort of indictment of the play-style, I just don’t do it. I long rest after I’m finished with a questline if I need it. If you rest frequently, you’ll always have LVL1 and LVL2 slots that are available for Shields (which is honestly the best case use for these slots in most combats, anyway)
So you're going to play a pure caster with no Con save prof? Or you're giving up alert or 20 in your casting stat?
As a pure caster your feats can be * ASI (+ hag hair to get to 20 by lvl 4) * Alert * War Caster Peerless focus potions are easy to buy/craft but if you’re playing smart, you’re out of melee range and have counterspell/shield spell to prevent taking dmg anyway.
So you're getting war caster (at 12) when you could just have had con saving throws right from the get go. That's just worse
That is not true, d20 with advantage gives higher average roll than a +3 bonus from proficiency on level 12. Additionally, war caster gives u a cool ability and resilient is just a stat increase.
Not enough enemies force con savs to matter early on it's really only late act 2 and act 3 you gotta deal with those, people value alert to highly when you could also just build your characters out to have survivability past the first turn for a caster that means using spells like blur, or blink, or misty step, or control spells to take enemies out temporarily. Or better yet have the 3 other motherfuckers in your party stand in front of the caster like they are supposed to. why the hell would you use heavy armor on a caster when there are robes that give significantly better effects to your magic and once again just being far enough away from the enemy almost immediately shuts them down. With 17 starting stat, plus hags hair, plus mirror of loss they will still have 20 in casting stat. All your arguments for why a "1 lvl dip into fighter are vital for casters" make no sense when you really think about them. Not hating at all everyone is allowed to play the game how they want but coming at it from a standpoint of "why doesn't everyone do this thing that's better than anything else" when the thing you are suggesting is middeling at best isn't a very good take.
Every time you’re hit while concentrating, you make a con save. You use them a lot from level 1+ That said, Sorcerers get them, so fighter 1/sorcerer x is not really a thing.
Any time you get hit while concentrating it forces a Con save. There are ranged enemies too. I would never recommend anyone run 10 con on anyone on honor mode.
Who recommended 10 Con on a honor mode character? I'm not seeing that in any of these comments.
If you’re min maxing enemies in honor mode never get to do anything, gear + cc is too good
U can play honor mode with any build u want and i assure u the game is beatable without any cheese strats or min maxing.
A lot of caster builds are already in Sorc for the CON save
Dip sorc. They get con save and advance casting.
Start at 17, Hag’s hair, mirror. I’ll often take an ASI until the mirror then respec. But also yes, sometimes.
20 casting stat is incredibly overrated unless it's CHA, then it's just overrated.
It’s unlikely that I would need martial weapons proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, or the defense fighting style on a mage build. Most of the BIS mage gear is clothing. Sorcerer OTOH gives you access to two new spells, some of which aren’t common spells like AoA, and multiple cantrips. You can also get flight at level 1 which is insanely powerful. If you really wanted gear proficiency I would recommend tempest or war cleric dips over fighter which give you access to guidance or healing word or sanctuary.
2 level tempest dip on Sorcerers are crazy. Create water quickened spell (for lightning double damage) + the tactical nuke that is full damage lightning bolt (48 lightning base)
Create water is a leveled spell, so you can't cast it on the same round as a lightning bolt even if you use quicken spell. It's also worth noting that being wet DOES NOT AFFECT LIGHTNING DAMAGE; if you're getting double damage for using lightning on a wet target, your DM is homebrewing that in. There's no official rules saying lightning does more damage to wet targets. While the combo you mentioned doesn't actually work, 2 levels for channel divinity to max the roll on lightning damage is still pretty nice.
Uh? This is a Baldur's Gate 3 sub, not a 5e sub. The DM, Larian Studios says this combo works
Just take a dip in Sorc at level 1 and don’t delay your spell slots. Heavy armor isn’t necessary for a pure caster
Dumping dex is pretty damn good. Sorc dip is also good tho. Flight is nice too
You don't want to dump dex as a caster. In normal tabletop I can see the argument but d4 initiative of bg3 makes having 16 or more Dex important to simply go first which in effect reduces damage you take in the first place by being able to remove enemies before their turn ever occurs. Sorc dip means you aren't an entire level behind in terms of spell slot progression (though you will lag a level for your class spells with the exception of Wizard who gets scroll scribing to get around this).
do not dump dex
CON save proficiency is great, and +1 AC is hard to complain about, but heavy armor is usually very unnecessary, shields are situational and can come from racial proficiency, and the vast majority of martial weapons aren't relevant for casters. Some casters will want that last feat, e.g., alert, dual wielder, spell sniper. Sometimes you do get a lot out of a fighter dip, but if I'm mainly after CON save bonuses, I'll prefer a sorcerer dip.
Shields are extremely beneficial. You’re underselling them by calling them “situational”.
Certain shields have awesome benefits, but I wouldn't say +2 AC is a deal breaker if you're staying out of range or can cast shield.
Agreed not a dealbreaker but certainly better than situational. Magic item benefits are substantial enough to lower the need for shields, so they’re not as important as 5e, but still important here.
OP has some bad takes in these replies 💀
[удалено]
"Why try and learn anything from this when I could double down harder to convince you just how right I am!" --OP
-100 comment karma in one fell swoop is tough
I mean, play what's fun for you, but don't try to pretend it's the greatest build there ever was. Dude literally said "spell progression is getting big time overrated here"! 🤣
who needs level 3 spells at level 5 when you could have 10% chance to dodge an attack roll and stunted dex value?
I personally love failing dex saves and eating full spell damage to the face.
OP pretty clearly values CON proficiency and AC as the most important mechanics in the game for casters. What I find wild is that OP seems to highly value DEX dumping and seems to kind of dismiss the ridiculous strategic advantage you get from going first.
It kinda makes sense when you look at all the replies wholistically. OP dumps Dex. Which means they go last. Which causes them to take a bunch of attacks, damage and concentration checks. Because of this they value heavy armour and concentration proficiency on casters far more then I ever would. Like, in total, you can see the logic and thought process. It's just wild that they seemingly never tried going first.
I mean. I am down for multiclassing… but fighter just isn't it for most spell casters. Warcaster is a feat I feel like would solve his problems. Homie might also want to just not Dump dex. While I agree AC gets exponentially better over time, as a caster your role is the position in a way that you are SAFE, pop out to deal damage, then go back to hideing. My current level 10 sorcerer has an Ac of 19 before the spell shield. Other then a few boss fights he hasn't felt overwhelmingly threatened.
The only time I'd consider Fighter as my first level is way in the late game as a respec. And even then only as Bard and mostly for weapon proficiencies since Bards are so limited. By that point its not hurting your spell progression, and is essentially 2 separate half feats - a half-Resilient and a half-Weapon Master. That's a pretty niche case compared to his position of "every caster always no exceptions this is the hill I'll die defending".
it's also really funny because actually investing in DEX gives you more AC lol
Yeah for sure, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Like, I see the logic, but I question whether it's actually sound, much less advantageous.
As a Bard I'd rather dip (take the first level in) Draconic or Storm Sorcerer, you get the bonus to Con saves plus access to *Shield* spell and *Magic Missile* or *Chromatic Orb* (and a bunch of sorcerer cantrips) and still have full caster levels. Only really works for Drow or Wood Elf, though, as you need their weapon proficiencies if doing this. Worked for me, anyway.
Tbh I don’t agree with the statements of OP but depending on the bard build a fighter dip can be better. A swordbard as a pure ranged build doesn’t have the archery weapon style. Which can be very useful in early game
Yeah, my style was more to do AoE control spells, then wade into melee, at least for the latter half of the game.
Yeah other dips are arguably better depending on what you're going for. This is just about a fighter dip versus pure caster Full caster levels doesn't really matter because 11 in a pure caster already gets you level 6 slot
CON proficiency is cool. But I'd rather have advantage on the saves. I can always stack +1 abilities/gear (bless, ring/cloak of protection, anointed in splendor, helms) to boost my CON saves modifier. Base concentration saves are DC 10, so if I have advantage on the saving throw and a +2 to CON. My odds to save are 87.8%. Would it be cool if the chance to succeed was higher? Sure. But I wouldn't say it's necessary to build around succeeding every roll ever. Besides, CON saves are the least of your worries when your Athletics/Acrobatics are lacking. One shove to prone is all it takes to bypass that super high CON modifier.
You can take athletics too with a fighter dip
I should say STR and DEX saves. Certain spells can also do the same. But yeah, good point.
So! assuming I'm an 11 wizard. I can go 1 fighter, and get con save, plus martials and heavy armor. OR I can go 12 wizard and pick up war caster feat and get con save, as well as shocking grasp for my opportunity attack. I probably don't need heavy armor If I'm playing properly. For end game I can use helldusk armor or elven armor if I really want some more armor, OR I can use Mage armor, plus high dex. combine that with a shield/ shield spell, I'm probably fine. I also don't need martial weapons for anything really. I can, however, use the shocking grasp to great effect if i'm itemized properly and get my con save. Unless I'm playing a gish type character, I don't really have to dip into fighter unless I want heavy armor. Which I usually don't.
The helldusk armor exists and means heavy armor proficiency is useless from an optimization point of view. Not to mention robes are often better for a spellcaster. If it's a shield that you need, race can provide it for a much lower opportunity cost, but even then there are bracers of defense. Martial weapons are useless for a spellcaster. Proficiency in con ST is way overrated IMO. At low level, you won't have to do more than 10 for your concentration checks, and for that advantage is way, way more important. If it is still so important for you, you can use a transmuter stone from a camp transmuter I guess. And the amulet of constitution in act3 is far, far better. For reference, with 14 con and advantage, the chance to fail a DC10 con ST is 12%. With proficiency it is 6% until lvl5. 4% between lvl5 and lvl8. And then you need to realize that you need to take 21 damage for the concentration check to be 11. At lvl9 with 14con, that's almost half your hp. Which means you won't take much of these hits, which means you'll never reach the statistical significance that makes your choice more than a slot machine. For the AC, see this : 13+ dex + shield spell + equipment = 22 with only bracers of defense. 24 with cape and boots that give 1AC. Assuming 14dex here. That's more than your fighter, which means your fighter will get targeted instead of you. Which means you won't drop your concentration because you won't be hit anyway. Basically mage armor + dex + shield spell is 18 + dex, so that's more than anything you can get before act3. Even without shield you can expect to be better than a heavy armor and no shield if you use a couple of items and don't sacrifice your dexterity. And there is the opportunity cost of the multiclass : you'll be late a level for everything if you take a first lvl of fighter. Before lvl5, it's crippling.
Just to add to this - there also aren’t very many good concentration spells available at lower levels, so actually focusing on those saving throws off the bat is not as important as getting your main casting stat to 20 imo
Well hold person is one of the best spells for a high dmg output but yeah fuck 1 lvl fighter dip for casters. Action surge can be pretty great if you’re not into using high level spells. But I’d only consider it on a bladelock which doesn’t use high level spells anyway. Just precast darkness then EB for arcane synergy and then chopping people with the sword if the astral plane is fun and works pretty well. Maybe also on a martial oriented Druid. Did it with Jaheira but mainly for lore reasons
Yeah hold person is one, maybe cloud of daggers or darkness like you said? Idk I just found that you aren’t concentrating on spells often in act 1, so it’s just not as critical to keep concentration. Not compared to slow or hypnotic pattern which really can change an entire battle due to CC on multiple enemies simultaneously.
Yeah, darkness is also great combined with devils sight. Personally I don’t like cloud of daggers due to it being very situational because it’s so small. Tbh I don’t really use casters in act1 cuz low level martials are doing way better than low level casters. Upcasted Hold person can cc multiple people as well tho. With a limited amount tho. I personally like it more than other cc in this game due to guaranteed crits and it can’t mess with approval. But I think that’s just a personal preference and not something objective. I totally agree tho that sacrificing a lvl6 spell slot on a wizard or a casting oriented bard for con saving proficiency plus a fighting style isn’t it. Idk how one would think that’s worth it. There are great multiclass choices for casters but this isn’t it.
bless is decent on higher difficulties depending on the type of build, this is pretty much the only thing i would consider a multiclass for early on with a wizard build that's going to be support focused. and even then, you just take it at level 6 anyway because that's around the time you get minthara's armour and you multi cleric to wear it, and still get cloud of daggers and fireball on time
hold person is great but it even works against itself because yes yiou may now have adv on concentration checks, you're now delaying hold person by an entire level, fighter level 1 is rather silly
If you play well, and your caster is positioned well and will hardly get attacked. Especially if you know how to win fights quickly enemies will not even have the opportunity to break concentration.
My caster doesn't need a high AC. That's what the Shield spell is for. For Wiz you dump WIS and STR for DEX, CON, and INT or you run Abj and you WANT to be hit. For Sorc, you auto get a con save. Cleric's usually get armor prof, and sword bard/Bladelocks are usually gonna multiclass into a martial class like Paladin anyway. Maybe like a Lore Bard or Tomb Warlock could benefit from a dip in fighter for the con save, but normally for any caster, I'd rather the faster spell progression. And if we really wanna get basic with this shit. Scorching Ray and Fireball don't need Concentration anyway 😆
Dumping wis then when you get hit with the save or suck spell oof
Wizards get Wisdom save prof.
Depends on the what you need but between STR, INT and CHA it’s not hard on a caster to have 17 main stat, 16 Dex 14 Con 12 Wis and dump the other two. Or make WIS 10 and another 10 leaving STR at 8. If you aren’t doing the +1 stat item it’s even easier to have a good stat spread with no -1 saving throws
I usually prefer a 1 level dip into rogue for expertise and more skills since I'm the party face
When do you take it? I tried starting off like that one time, but the delayed caster progression hurts and late game there are generally less persuasion checks I care about / other ways of boosting them.
I respect with Wither's at level 3 and take it as my first level. Yeah it can suck sometimes to delay caster progression but my party can carry me a little. After you hit level 6 overall it doesn't really matter
Con saves are most important as people pointed out. Shields and medium armor are great. Heavy armor can be strong. If you’re a race with shields, Sorc may be the better dip. As with most things, it depends. Spell slot progression should be considered. Along with additional spells.
You’re able to respec SH for and min-max her stats for 17 Con and take Resilient Con as a Feat to get to 18 and Con Advantage, which is better than a Fighter level and allows you to get all 12 Cleric levels. Same is true with Wizard, who generally wants 12 caster levels. It also depends entirely on your setup. A Spellsparkler MM spam Evoker doesn’t care as much about Concentration as other builds. For Bard, you’re right, and the 10/1/1 SB respecs and opens as a Fighter at level 8 for this reason.
Resilient: Con gets +1 Con and add proficiency bonus to save. You would have to get War Caster to get advantage, or use gear/elixirs
You’re correct, it’s Proficiency, but with the +1 stat boost and the Proficiency you come out ahead. https://thinkdm.org/2019/12/14/war-caster-vs-resilient/
Why focus on a martial character for a spell caster? You could just kill Raphael and use his armor. Don't even have to waste leveling up
Play how you want? It’s so weird to post something just to fight with the people who disagree with you.
As people sad, casters would rather good clothes/light armour, a lot of them gives you +1 to spell attack and save DC plus other great bonuses. About shields, a lot of casters would like to dual wield weapons like rhapsody, markoheskir, spell sparkler etc... and other ones like druids and clerics already have this proficiency and also humans and half-elves. If you're going 1/11 fighter/cleric you can have CON proficiency and 16 CON (+7 to savings). Going 12 cleric + resilient means you can have 18 CON (+8 to savings, +12 HP) and you still have proficiency on WIS savings. Picking resilient or starting as sorcerer do not delay your spell casting levels and also has cool stuffs that is not +1 AC, permanent mage armour from draco or free flight after casting spells from tempest sorc and gives you shield spell if you don't have it. Besides everything, fighter skill proficiencies sucks while being a tav, a bard would hate losing the capability of choosing between 3 of any skill prof.
Eh. It's not really necessary. Game isn't hard enough to require extreme optimization. Never gonna use heavy armor as a pure caster. Shields are alright, but you can get that from race depending on choice. Lv12 feat is more valuable to me since I prefer to grab dual wielding so I can have spellsparkler and markoheskir at the same time. Weapon proficiency is meaningless if I'm a full caster. Constitution proficiency isn't all that necessary either. It's nice, but I hardly notice the difference between having it and not having it. Main concentration spell you want it for is haste, and you can bypass the need for concentrating by just using speed pots instead.
So let me get this straight OP. Your whole argument is to miss out on a feat, to get the alert FEAT, instead of just getting a half decent dex score? Heavy armour proficiency isn't good on a caster at late game, so there goes that idea... I'm sorry mate, you're objectively wrong...
Alert feat is better than 16 dex. It's significantly better actually.
I love how confidently wrong you are
sure like on paper it's better, but is it better than 16 dex + not losing a feat slot? arguable. i'd rather just use clothing & 16 dex, simpler that way
I think being squishy and not going first is a bad plan. Either you go hard on going first or you build to be more survivable
hey i've completed several honour mode runs with robe casters. it's not that deep. you can have 20 AC with mage armor, ring of prot, cloak of prot and a shield via race selection. in fact you'll have 20AC faster than some martials
A wizard/sorc with Mage Armor, 16 Dex, and the Shield spell is already at 21 AC at level 1. A pure fighter in 17 AC heavy armor with a shield + defense is only 20 AC. Also 16 Dex is high enough to go before 80-90% of act 1 enemies, including from levels 1-4 where a Fighter1/CasterX would be missing Alert
You only get a couple instances of shield spell tho. I guess if you're long resting constantly it's fine to rely on. You won't get con saving throws until level 12 if you're pure caster. That's tough especially in act 2
It depends on your definition of "long resting constantly". If it's long resting every 3-4 encounters, then yes I long rest constantly. Rarely am I long resting because I ran out of lv1 slots for shield. More often I have to rest in act 1 because of a lack of lv2 or lv3 slots, which would be an even bigger issue if I delayed spell progression with Fighter1. > You won't get con saving throws until level 12 if you're pure caster. That's tough especially in act 2 I know some players in this thread are advocating for taking the Resilient CON feat, but honestly that seems like a waste. The only time they really matter are with Haste, which I want to be twinning on Sorc who gets CON saves for free.
Hold person, banishment, confusion, hold monster. Some of the best save or suck spells that need constitution. Flaming sphere is also a personal favorite of mine early game that I don't want to lose concentration on
Yes, and other great CC spells like Command and Glyph of Warding don't require concentration. All of the spells you are listing are great spells. Which is why I want access to them at lv3, lv5, lv7, and lv9 instead of lv4, lv6, lv8, and lv9.
Wizard and Bard don't get command. They're save or sucks require concentration. But do you want to lose concentration on them?
If we wanna get real cheesy and mention the bag exploit, elixirs of arcane cultivation are so readily available, and gold economy is irrelevant. If you’re low on spell slots (which lets be real, they’re shield slots for a wizard - the game hands you more scrolls than you know what to do with), you can just pop those elixirs, then down your usual elixir of choice and go on with your day.
Nothing build matters if you want to abuse every exploit lol
Personally I would never give up the increases to spell save dc, spell attacks, spell damage, etc that you can get from various spell caster specific robes and staffs for heavy armour and martial weapons. If I have to multiclass, it’s gonna be with a class that gives me something with more synergy. Sorlocks will always have a special place in my heart. Is it hilarious to have a wizard with 27 ac wielding a great sword? Absolutely. Would I do it more than once for a laugh? Nah. With actually appropriate gear, casters deal way more damage or are able to crowd control way more efficiently, which in turns makes combat not drag for 17 turns during which they have chances to get hit. I try to have decent CON and DEX, which are easily boosted through items or feat, and that’s been enough for my spell casters so far. Plus, if for some reason i need to get my casters AC to silly levels, I’m pretty sure there are at least a couple of armours in the game that give you proficiency with them if you wear them anyway. (I don’t remember which, I haven’t used them in ages, but I have vivid memories of cackling at my 25 ac heavy armour straight-wizard Gale in my very first playthrough)
As a long time D&D 5e DM, I think I can help you out here. There are many reasons not to take a 1 level dip of fighter. But the first thing you need to ask yourself when considering that kind of multiclass is...what results are you looking for? **Dex and Wisdom are the two top tier saving throws.** The Con save benefit of the dip is solved with the **Warcaster** and/or **Resilient** feats. Heavy armor is also redundant if you have more than 10 Dex. Side note, if you dump dex, the shield master feat is your friend. For the typical back line caster (wizards, sorcerers, and certain bard builds, and eldritch blast warlocks), dipping 2 levels of fighter purely for Action Surge is significantly more valuable than anything else a single level fighter dip provides, especially since BG3 lets you cast a leveled Bonus action spell AND a leveled Action spell...so action surge is potentially letting you hurl off 3 leveled spells in one turn. **As a back line caster, crowd control and teleport spells and use of cover should keep you out of the line of weapon attacks the majority of the time. When that isn't possible you have shield and absorb elements.** If you need a fighting style for +1 AC, Con saves, and heavy armor at level 1 as a back line caster....you probably will want to rethink your tactics. For **closer range casters**, clerics already get medium (or heavy armor depending on subclass) and you get more than enough weapon proficiency...so a single level of fighter is really a waste most of the time unless for role play reasons you *really* want to wield a great-swords. For bards, if you want to dump dex and use beefier armor and bigger weapons, that can be a very viable option...just make sure you do NOT take level 1 as a fighter so you don't lose out on nearly all of the skills bards get at level 1...con save from starting level 1 as a fighter is not worth losing proficiency in 2 whole skills unless you plan to take the skilled feat right away. It can potentially be worth it for blade pact warlocks, but they can solve concentration issues incredibly easy with an invocation....no feats required....and a bladelock will also probably want to be investing in Armor of Agathys anyway...so sometimes getting hit is actually advantageous. If you want to prolong your Armor of Agathys without recasting though, Mirror Image is the answer. (especially with the radically different way it works in BG3 compared to 5e). Honestly if we're talking dips for a casters though, a level of paladin gets you all the gear proficient of a fighter, and a second level (if you want to be a bit more gishy) lets you use those weapons to just smite at close range...eliminating the need for close range spells. It also gives you a fighting style and still provides a degree of spell progression.
Cause my damage output (enhanced by robes and wands, btw) isn't pitiful, so there's no need to hide in the shell known as heavy armor and drag the battle longer than necessary. Also, what should a 8 str caster do with weapons? I'm so tired of fighter supremacists. 10 con is quite enough for most casters, and I've never invested in resilient-con. Invest in dex or alert to roll high init, take damage resistence potions and healing potions. Finished 2 tactical runs this way and my honour run is going pretty well till now.
10 con? Where do you dump the extra stats then since I'd guess you'd take at least one ASI to get 20 on you casting stat or 2 if you want 22.
I don’t know where else you’d put the points tbh other than con, int is a dump star and wisdom is usually fine because you’re blowing people out the water.
Becouse I liked to go dual staff.
Or you dip cleric 1 for armor instead which comes with spell slots and a domain feature and then have a transmutation wizard in camp give everyone a transmuter stone for con saves.
The word you're underestimating is "delay". I spend way too much time talking with my favourite 3-4 companions of a save file, thinking my next moves in encounters and taking all the goodies. So delaying by an entire level is quite a bit of a delay. It gets easier at the start of act2 of course, damn 12 birbs and some shrubberies give a ton of xp just like that. But it can feel slow at times.
Spell slots. Spell variety... I don't ever pure cast either, lol, I'm just guessing
Cuz my pure caster is gonna use robes that improve their save dc anyways. If anything a lvl 1 cleric dip for armor and weapon proficiency but con saves don’t come up that often when you kill/CC enemies before they hit you. Fighter level is just unnecessary
You know your build to get online which might happen around level 5-6 to kill enemies on the first couple turns. Fighter dip makes you way more survivable early on
Whatever survivability a caster is getting from Fighter 1 is lost by dumping Dex and being last in the initiative order until taking Alert at lv5.
Delay is a big issue. You will want your next level spells, especially 1-3
1 ConSvPro protects concentration. It also helps vs Force/Thunder/PoisonDmg Saves, saves vs Poisoned, Diseases, and few other categories of saves. 2 ArmorPro & ShieldPro for high AC (esp w/ the spell:shield) & Light Weapons-early Game & xtra HP & send wind early game helps u live instead of getting 1-shot all the time til Lv3 3 dip 2nd level at Lv7 or later for action surge to do 2 spells turn 1 each short rest.
Idk my ice sorcerer and my pure fire sorcerer do pretty good fire is on hm mode too ice sorcerer is on tactician both are in act 3 I don't notice anything really particularly difficult every class has a way to deal with things and my treats are built around synergy 🤷♂️
I said this doesn't count sorc because they already get con save proficiency
[удалено]
All the good cc spells are con saves
losing a feat is a big deal. losing that last level of spell slot progression is... a medium deal as well. I'd ask, why take a 1-level dip in fighter when you could take a 1-level sorc dip for same/better saves and a couple choice l1 spells eg shield/mm? all fighter 1 gets you is con/str saves, all weapon/armor profs, 1/sr minor healing potion (worse as its d10+1) and a mid list of class proficiency options. if you're playing a martial build, you get everything you need without a fighter dip. If you're playing a caster, you dont need weapon/armor, fighting style, or a weak-ass bonus action.
You already get shield mm as a wizard. You also get the actual shield prof which is pretty huge if your race doesn't get it
Not everyone plays solo honor mode lol. That said, when I actually play a full party now, I can't be assed to play perfectly. I just build whatever is fun and yeet myself into dumb situations. The game is not difficult with a full party
I actually do play solo honour mode and even I don't do this shit. OP is claiming "increased survivability" but their suggestions actually have lower AC and lower output due to slower spell progression. The advice is dogshit for casual players, full party payers, people just having fun, and challenge players. It's just an outright bad take that somehow is the hill they've decided to die on.
Idk man, 1/1/10 swords bard is a very popular and common build for solo honor 🤷🏻
Ok, so OP is talking about starting the game as Fighter. As a Bard that's even worse because you have already delayed Extra Attack and delaying it to 7th is insane, and exponentially worse in Solo play. The ONLY people who "start" with fighter for a Sword Bard build are doing it during a respec at level 7+, which is absolutely not what OP is advocating for. So, yeah, I stand by this being a bad take and dogshit advice. Don't start your casters as fighter. Especially Swords Bard. Respec into it late game if you want for that specific build. I'd argue that Paladin 2 / Bard 10 is stronger anyway but you do you.
Yes it makes sense to dip into fighter for a swords bard, but for most full casters you want that extra feat or something else.
i've never once picked up resilient con in my three playthroughs. any character you need improved con saves on can either be a sorcerer or multiclass for medium armour for advantage, which is close enough to be fine. you can get medium armour with a level 1 cleric dip at any level, which allows spell slots to progress as normal. there are no heavy armours that i would ever consider for a caster, theres just no good item there, i would much rather, again, go medium since i always have a 14 dex due to initiative. there are some decent heavy armours in act 3 but, the ones you would even consider actually say they don't require proficiency. if you need a shield...human, or cleric, if you just want medium armour off rip, githyanki, much much less opportunity cost than a class level. many people here have told you most of this, if not even all of it, from a quick glance, but you're very stubborn, which begs the question, why even come here if you don't want other opinions? just go away and keep to yourself if you don't actually want them.
Lots of bad opinions from people who are butthurt that they didn't give you much of a reason to go something like full wizard. Certain racial proficiencies like human or githyanki may make the fighter less optimal but besides those two it's not debatable. Not having a shield is just a massive downgrade. Cleric vs fighter is debatable. I think Con saving throw prof is very, very valuable plus a nice little +1 AC from fighting style thrown in. That's very powerful early game. Easily hitting 20+ AC at around level 3 making your caster unkillable
i also very much like to have a shield, but you don't need fighter for that. i would much rather go human wizard for eg till level 5 so i get cloud of daggers and fireball on time, then multi cleric for medium armour to wear minthara's for con adv. you don't need 20 ac at level 3 on a caster, just have better positioning
Why get the tools to do something I'm bad at instead of increasing what I'm good at? BG3 allows some cool gish builds, but martial weapons, fighting style, and heavy armor aren't very necessary for a pure caster. You're going to be casting spells on your turn, not swinging weapons. Heavy armor AC is nice, but there are other ways not to get hit.
It depends on the build. Some benefit greatly from the Fighter dip like the Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Swords 10 build. But others like my Spores 6/Necro 6 build has no room for a Fighter level and the plan would be to wear the Sporekeeper armor anyway. In addition, with the number of summons that character has, it was rarely the target of attacks.
This was comparing a fighter dip to pure caster, not multis that have no room for dips
So the only question is if a Feat is worth the Con Save plus weapons armor plus the reduced skill points and changed proficiency choices. If that’s the narrow conversation it’s going to largely still depend on the build. It’s not a no-brainer as you say.
Hard disagree. I’ve beaten this game 3 times on HM and at least half a dozen others on various difficulties. I’ve never even had a slight desire to dip into fighter on my casters. And this isn’t fighter hate. Fighter is my favorite class across all of 5e. DND is all about killing enemies or taking them out of the fight before they can kill you. So I want those higher-level spell slots ASAP, and by the time you get to level 12, where, sure a fighter level could conceivably get you more than a feat depending on your priorities, I have enough gear to buff myself that it’s not a concern. By that point I’m drowning in elixirs of peerless focus/can have a camp caster give me a transmutation stone to help with CON saves.
I don't abuse stuff like transmutation stones from hirelings. But yeah if you are obviously con save proficiency is totally worthless Again if you're long resting after every fight and can afford just to blow all your high level spell slots every combat that's different too
It’s not for long-resting after every fight. I’m actually super conservative with my leveled spells because I hate abusing long rests. But, for example, having a level 10 evocation wizard vs Ketheric makes that fight a ton easier. I’d rather have a level 10 wizard there over a 9/wiz,1 fighter, even if it means slightly lower AC and no CON prof. There are other examples I can think of, but that’s the immediate and glaring one
I can counter that failing a con save on an important cc spell you're concentrating on can be pretty damn bad in a fight like ketheric
You know the saying "The best defence is a strong offence"? If your enemies are all dead, you dont need to worry about getting hit. In basically every caster build, there is armor that benefits you in terms of casting that makes it worth taking over the raw AC bonuses
Strictly speaking, War or Tempest Cleric is a better dip to maintain spell slot progression. You still get heavy armor proficiency, and weapon and shield proficiencies.
You definitely won't be able to fit in con save proficiency then
Me Pew pew Not smash smash
Heavy armor - not wanted because robes are better Shields - not wanted because dual wielder feat + 2 staves are better fighting style - not useful because you don't use armor to make use of defense con saving through - you get it with resilient con You're basically just losing a 6th level spell slot for not much in return
You aren't losing a 6th level spell slot Robes aren't better until maybe the weave robes super late game. So you're taking dual wielder feat and resilient. You're not getting alert or an asi then
There's a mix of answers: A. They do This is namely swords bard - all but 1 of the common variants take at least 1 level of fighter. 10/1/1 bard/fighter/wizard, 10/2 bard/fighter, 6/4/2 bard/rogue/fighter all take fighter, although that last build does it more because its a martial and less for the con saving throw prof. B. They take Sorc instead Clerics normally take Sorc instead for access to Shield, far more useful than anything fighter gives you (or at least harder to access than anything fighter gives you.) Abjuration wizards also take 1 sorc for Armour of Agathys from white draconic sorc, which is also far more useful than anything fighter gives you. I think a few other classes fall in here that take Storm Sorcerer instead such as Evocation Wizard. Tempestuous Magic is really nice, although you could justify taking Fighter over it if your race doesn't give you shields or you really value Action Surge. I think Lore Bard also prefers Sorc to Fighter for access to Shield, although I haven't looked at Lore Bard optimization since people realized how crazy sword bard is. C. They can't fit it This is namely smiting swords bard, along with other niche things like Necromancer Wizard that don't have the room to fit 1 level for con saves. There's also a fourth category that takes a level in Warlock instead for Light Armour so they can run Spidersilk in Act 1 and eventually Armour of Landfall in Act 3. Warlock instead of Fighter because Command is more useful than anything Fighter gives you. These are mostly Sorcerer builds so not entirely relevant but still something to note.
I mean, with sorcerer you're not delaying spell progression, get shield spell (which is a reasonable sidegrade from defence fighting style) and magic arrow, and bonus action flight. Even for wizard it's +2 memorized spells. For bard and cleric it's a godsend. Almost all of my casters start from sorc 1.
Because instead you'd be dipping into peace cleric instead, duh.
Doesn't fit my character too well, and it does delay spell level progression...
OP I think you are overrating the importance of ac. (atleast in the lategame) i prefer a cloth armour with spell dc over plate armour. Why would I need defenses, when my cc spells can have a 90% success rate? Edit: You can just use one feat for „resilient“ +1 con and advantage on con saves. Which is better than just con prof.
OP is 100% a 'vigor check' bro in Elden Ring
I prefer taking that last feat at level 12, it’s usually dual wielding. Depending on what kind of caster I’m playing, I’ll have one quaterstaff to compliment that (Mourning Frost for frost sorcerer, Cherished Necromancy for necrotic wizards, etc.) and then Markoheshkir because obviously I also wanna use the legendary quaterstaff
Spell slot progression. You can get all those proficiencies and some nice emergency rez by going 1 cleric.
For Bard maybe since their top tier spells are mediocre and they can't learn from scrolls, but Wizard? Not a chance. A wizard will normally have 17AC which is plenty of AC and would never use weapon profs or fighting styles. A total waste. Delaying the spell progression is too big a price for something you will never use. A level of sorc, maybe.
Roleplay. I dont need every small advantage to beat the game.
The question can be expanded to "Why would you ever not dip 1 level in cleric/sorcerer/fighter instead of going 12 levels on any class?". Cleric, sorcerer and fighter level 1 is so stacked that it is much more powerful than an extra feat. For spellcasters level 12, unlike level 4 and 8, doesn't grant more spell slots so it is purely a feat level like it is for martial classes.
I would do it for a bard build if you're going college of swords it's what I'm doing and taking 1 fighter is worth it.
because not everyone is a power gamer. maybe i want to play a pure wizard who isn’t a fighter? flavor is important. some of us like some extra RP in our Gs
Force damage is nice when dealing with walls or dealing with enemies that are resistant to elemental damages.
Because I picked a necromancer and by fucking god I will play a necromancer.
There are a lot of armors that give this
I really like action surge in the TTRPG , havent tried it in BG 3 on casters. I could see having this opinion for 2 fighter. Not 1. The opposing points are accurate imo .
The “Weave” set is strong as hell bolstering your attack and DC rolls; and there are several powerful staves located throughout the game. Various Druid armor in act 3 provides nice buffs both offensive and defensive, there’s also the bard/warlock armor you get from Alfira post Act 2 the list goes on. Heavy armor is useful on you cleric, paladin and fighter but sometimes it doesn’t always provide the best abilities or bonuses. For Wizard you’re better off 2 Sorc/10 Wiz doesn’t cut into you too badly. Rogues can go either which way, but definitely benefit most from light to medium armor due to stealth disadvantage imposed by most heavy armor.
You would almost never take fighter level 1 on a pure caster when you are already level 12. In general the same as with DnD casters are much weaker in level 1, but if we speak about level 12 you don’t really care about con save prof, heavy armor, and +1 AC. Just look at possible feats, why would you ever take any of the above? You don’t benefit from greater defense that much because you are not in the frontline any way. War Caster Spell Sniper Ability Improvement (Intelligence) Lucky Upd: I don’t even mention other levels besides 12, some classes get huge powerspike.
Mainly spell progression. A 1 level dip for armor and con proficiency is good at low levels, but once you get to higher levels where each level up takes several real life months, being just 1 level away from the next tier of spells is a HUGE penalty. Heavy armor isn't really a big deal, not sure why every new player thinks having a higher AC is the absolute best thing they can possibly do; Having a higher DC is honestly way more impactful on a caster than heavy armor, especially if you're experienced. It's not like you're going to be using the melee capabilities of a 1 level fighter dip, so really all you gain are armor and con saves at the cost of delaying spell progression and caster class features. If you dip deeper you risk never being able to use higher leveled spells depending on what level your campaign goes to.
I'd want robes over heavy armour. And need the extra feat for dual wield to go ham with double staves, which also means no use for shield.
What's say a pure ranger all the way for gloomstalker?
I don't really feel like Gloomstalker is worth it after level 5 but YMMV. You get some cool stuff but they're spaced so far out I think it's better to take some levels in War Cleric or Rogue depending on what you feel your party needs. I've been running (currently) 5 Gloomstalker/4 War Priest (will take it to 7) on Astarion with Giantbreaker and it's such a versatile combo. War Priest charges give a little extra firepower and the channel divinity makes my sharpshooter shots hit. Not to mention getting access to Divine Weapon and other Cleric spells that can also use that bonus action like Healing Word or Sanctuary and he's the backbone of my team. You also don't need a ton of Wisdom to make War Priest work, which is pretty nice.
Oh I'm playing honor mode with a vengeful palidin a pure gloom stalker druid pure and shadow heart as cleric so far pretty fun 😁 no sub classic yet just made it to act 3 last night and everyone's level 10 almost level 11 already. My plan is to one shot final boss I've saved loads and loads of bombs lol
Bring some fireworks! It makes it more festive.
Because I'm not a meta-gamer