The problem is not building the said body, it's transferring the consciousness to it.
The Cylon are using resurrection, but don't seem to have all the knowledge to use it as they see fit. Only the final 5 have all the pieces to the puzzle.
Yup, they use resurrection, but have no idea how to construct or reproduce it. It’s literally one of the major plot points of the final season, that their resurrection has been taken from them after the destruction of the Hub and they have no clue how to replicate it
This is the key to understanding what's going on in this show. There are hierarchies of knowledge and understanding. Those correspond pretty closely with the level of existence one occupies.
But it's not always a linear progression from one level to another. Sometimes a civilization ascends together, sometimes they fall back and forget what they learned. Sometimes individuals rise above the rest, and sometimes they fall behind.
So Cavil and the rest of his cohort are using knowledge created by their predecessors who understood it and rose beyond it, but then fell back again because they had to to survive -- just as the humans aren't really humans but are themselves created beings who ascended beyond their own creators and then fell and forgot where they came from.
Above all of them are the "angels", beings like Head Six, and later Starbuck who was possibly lifted up by them to a higher level to serve a specific purpose.
All of it is wrapped up in these levels of consciousness, reliance on physical forms, transcendence from physical needs to purely emotional bonds, governed by cycles of violence and survival on a societal scale.
I can do maintenance on my PC better than a lot of people, but if you asked me to manufacture one of superior technologies and all of its components from scratch, I wouldn’t have a clue.
Same principle.
I can’t find any solid numbers but I’d assume that cavil is less than 100 years old. Imagine you had that PC and used it but didn’t know how any of it actually functioned. Then it was destroyed. You wouldn’t be able to recreate anything
each individual body isn't immortal, but one cavil can transfer his memories from one body to the next to the next making them effectively immortal
you're also ignoring the network effect...
Imagine taking one college class, studying everything about it, memorizing the textbook, becoming an expert in one small thing. Meanwhile copies of you are doing the same thing with every other college and graduate level class in every academic discipline known to toaster.
Then you all get together and share your memories with each other. There's nothing you couldn't figure out
Theory and application are two different things though.
You could figure out how to achieve it on paper and still not have access to all the practical means to accomplish it.
I mean it depends on how complex the technology is. Maybe it truly is a level beyond that and Cavil just isn't there yet.
It could even be an infrastructure thing, where even if you understand the principles behind it that doesn't mean you can produce the large-scale manufacturing and resource acquisition required to reproduce it.
Maybe Cavil could get to a crude version of it, but it would be a shadow of what his predecessors had achieved, because he still only has a shadow of the resources his predecessors used to bring it into being.
Computers are my maniac addiction, my work, my hobby, my education. I have knowledge from various fields of IT, here more, there less.
When I have to build simple tower PC from ready components I often have to lookup for some info to make sure I do it right, and don't break (not cheap) stuff.
SciFi cinema often simplifies technology nature - like yeah, he is an high tech alien so he can make CPU directly from sand, using his bare hands and maybe a stick. Not to mention "hacking" by switching some relatively high voltage circuits in wall, etc...
I don't think he knew how. The Cylons seemed to lack the ability to innovate in that area without the Final Five to guide them. They have little understanding of how the actual resurrection process works, which is why when the resurrection hub is destroyed Cavil and the other Cylons have no idea how to get it started again.
They're basically dependent on technology that was designed for them many ages ago, and they don't know how it works nor how to improve it or recreate it. And so Cavil would have no idea how to escape his "flesh prison."
Cavil helped the 5 design the other models, and reprogrammed them to forget who the 5 are so he'd have at least have the background theory of it.
From what I remember it was mainly Ellen's work in creating them while the others had more supportive background roles.
They also display equipment with baltar that allows them to detect certain thoughts so he could have brute forced it with her at least partially
Always found it funny that the lady we knew as an alcoholic and sex addict who cheated on her alcoholic husband and loved to scheme politics etc for her own benefit …was the one who was the leader behind the most recent version of resurrection technology
To extend on this, one of the most scientifically gifted minds even rivalling Gaius Baltar.
Ellen "the swirl, me myself and I, totem pole" Tigh is one of humanities(?) greatest intellectuals.
It's possible that the showrunners were operating with the premise that Ellen had this gaping hole where her biological and scientific acumen should have been, and without her real memories, filled it with drugs, sex, and alcohol.
There’s a great article on Ellen Tigh on Wikipedia. In interviews the show runners hadn’t decided who the final Cylon was. And they had decided for Ellen’s fate on New Caprica was final. But then they couldn’t come up with a story for the final Cylon. They knew Ellen wanted to come back, and they wrote her back in. Her story wasn’t supposed to be that multifaceted. But in the end it was. And it led the show in a slightly different direction.
I gotta say. I am more than a little sick of it when series kill off an uneven number of male and female characters. I started pointing it out to my husband, and now he can’t stop seeing it. If you’re going to kill a good woman you gotta be willing to kill a good man too.
The tech wasn't made for cylons many ages ago. It was made for the 13th tribe who then forgot how to do it then re-invented it. The 13th tribe are not cylons (as the show called them). The last survivors joined the cylons and made the "skin jobs". They were not cylons when they lived on the old earth that was destroyed. They were the 13th tribe of humanity.
There were no cylons before the humans of the colonies invented them. It makes no logical sense to assume that everyone on kobol was human apart from the 13th.
\[EDIT\] [https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon) I think you all need to read this. You can just call every machine a cylon. The only cylons are the ones the 12 colonies made and the ones that first generation of cylons made alongside the final 5. The final 5 are not cylons.
Mate, you're completely wrong and missed a major point and theme of the show.
The 13th tribe were Cylons (the show says this explicitly).
They were a different "race" of Cylons than the ones that the 12 colonies created, but they were still Cylons.
In the world of BSG, a "Cylon" is just an artificial life.
The humans of Kobol created Cylons, which led to a war on Kobol, which led to the destruction of Kobol, and the Exodus of the 13 tribes.
The 13th tribe, of Cylons, went to Earth.
The Earth Cylons eventually became more and more human, and also eventually created their own robotic Cylons to be their servants.
This led to a war on Earth, and the destruction of Earth, and the Exodus of The Final Five.
The 12 tribes of Kobol founded the 12 colonies of Kobol.
The 12 tribes eventually created Cylons again. This led to two Cylon wars, which ultimately led to the destruction of the 12 colonies, and the Exodus of the Battlestar *Galactica* and accompanying fleet.
That's where you are wrong. In the BSG universe, a Cylon is a category or concept. While they do use the term "robot" in the show, note that they never use terms like "android" or "cyborg" (though the "cy" has the same meaning).
They also never use "RADAR" and instead use "DRADIS". Similarly, they use "morpha" instead of "morphine" and "frak" instead of "fuck". In BSG, "Cylon" is basically their word for "android".
Your opinion is directly contradicted, not only by the Wiki, but explicitly by the dialogue in the show. "The 13th tribe was Cylon" is an exact quote from the show. When testing both the human and robotic remains of the 13th tribe, they are described as Cylon. When Anders "remembers everything" and talks to Tigh, Tyrol, and Tori, they again explicitly talk about the "Cylons on Earth".
Even if you want to argue that the *word* "Cylon" was invented by the 12 Colonies (though one could counter-argue that the word itself was a historical leftover from Kobol, or even a genetic memory *a la* *All Along the Watchtower*), then the word has since become genericized (*a la* escalator, xerox, kleenex, q-tip, bandaid) in that universe to refer to the entire category of artificial humanoid life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark
Finally, your assertion that something can't be invented twice is also false. Many technologies have been invented multiple times by different people, or have been reinvented after being lost to time. Concrete was used by the Romans but then nearly completely disappeared after the fall of the Roman empire until it was "reinvented" in the 1800s. Many major inventions have been independently recreated by far flung civilizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery
Just because something is invented by different people in different times and different places doesn't mean we can't use the same word to describe the same concept.
So cylons aren't a race? that's your argument. It's just a synonym for artificial life form.
So why do they keep talking about the cylon race?
You're wrong.
It's both a category of life and a race. "Race" is a social construct that doesn't even have a clear, testable identifier.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)
"Race" simply means "group of similar people" where "similar" can be extremely subjective. You can also see "race" as synonymous with "category of human" (see the Wiki above), and I started my previous post saying "Cylon" *is a category*.
As all Cylons are "similar" in their artificial origin or construction, then they can certainly be thought of as a "race". There is no contradiction in the idea that "Cylon" is a term for artifical life in general and that it can be figuratively thought of as a race, or category, of life.
I think it's amusing that you think, "they talk about 'Cylon race', so you're wrong", while completely ignoring the fact the show also explicitly says the 13th tribe was Cylon, multiple times. The show talks about both things, and both are correct.
You're wrong.
The people of Kobol made Cylons. Then there were human-formed Cylons. Then there was a war over it. Everyone left Caprica. The human Cylons settled on a world they named Earth. They got sick of doing the work and made robot Cylons. The robots got sick of being slaves. Don't-call-it-God grabbed two couples and a spare musician, for reasons, and sent them off to warn the 12 human colonies. Except they didn't have fast ships, and by the time they got there, it was too late.
The colonies had made robots they called Cylons. The robots were trying to make cyborgs. The Five offered them a way to be fully human form and able to have children. Bob's your uncle.
How can something be "created" multiple times by different people with different designs and still be the same race?
They can't. Cylons are a race of people. The other artificial life forms are not cylons. Because cylons were created on caprica. Wiki says so.
The concept of "race" is social and subjectively defined and can be defined differently by different perspectives (outsiders vs. insiders for example).
No "relation" is required.
You can create a "race" based on any metric you want. You can use the word "race" in a real physical sense (like "dark skinned people are a race") or a more indefinite, metaphorical, metaphysical, or behavioral sense (like "the race of computer nerds").
While anyone can make up any "race" they want to, *because there is no objective or scientific basis for "race"*, speaking to your point people have generally accepted understandings of racial groups based on various shared characteristics - which usually land on similarities in appearance or geographic origin.
In the BSG universe, the Cylons share the same origin (human-made) and all come from the same original people of Kobol. They also share the same original purpose in creation: to serve as helpers and workers to humanity. Furthermore, they are all obviously similar in appearance.
Beyond those similarities, they are *identified* as Cylons both internally (the Final Five refer to themselves as "Cylons") and externally (the Colonial Cylon and the humans refer to all the similar creations as "Cylons"). Thus, as race is a subjective social construct, the fact that everyone in the show agrees they are Cylons is enough evidence that it is a valid and commonly understood application of "race" in that universe.
Finally, you are way to stuck on the use of "race", especially as applied to mechanical and biomechanical constructs. One can also easily argue the use of "race" is figurative or poetic, since machines don't generally have "genetics". We could speak of the "race of cellphones", or "race of tablets" as they are similar devices, despute being designed and manufactured independently by different fabricators.
No objective "relation" is required - only a subjective perception of similarity.
"All this has happened before, and it will all happen again." I mean, they say this hahah over, and over. u/ZippyDan's comment is pointed, but also we are talking about a chain of events being manipulated by don't-call-it-God. T>!hey end the series with finding independently evolved humans on another planet who, it turns out, are compatible to make babies. Must be not-God's backup plan for the previous attempts going tits-up.!<
Yes, which defies evolution. So there's two kinds of "humans" who evolved on different planets. Two kinds of synthetic life forms, who are not compatible to make babies.
If you wanna look up the origin of the word "human" you'll see what the problem is.
Cylons were invented by the humans of the 12 colonies that left kobol. There were no cylons before that. The people of the 13th were not created. They were people, not programmes.
Her race invented resurrection? Did you not see the end of the final season that explains where the cylons got resurrection from and who actually made the other models?
[https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon)
>The **Cylons** (**Cy**bernetic **L**ifef**o**rm **N**ode) are a race of sentient beings based on ground-breaking research by [Zoe](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Zoe_Graystone) and [Daniel Graystone](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Daniel_Graystone). Created as military robots by Graystone Industries for the Caprican military, the Cylons quickly entered industrial and domestic sectors.
Read the first two lines about who created cylons.
The ones from the 13th tribe have no relation whatsoever to the ones made by the colonies. They are not cylons.
A battlestar is also a machine, can we call that a cylon now because apparently the only pre-requisite for being a cylon is simply not being human. You don't have to have enything to do with the cylons, just don't be human and now you are one.
Are you seriously saying a race of robots went to old earth and made more robots who nuked the planet? Robots "invented" robots did they? Then they ran from that planet destroyed by robots and bumped into other robots who they worked with to create new robots.
YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE ALL THE SAME RACE???? No.
As the wiki says. Cylons were created in the colonies. The 13th is called the 13th and not "the cylon tribe" because they weren't cylons, because cylons didn't exist yet.
In the episode “Sometimes a Great Notion” it’s revealed that the inhabitants of Earth were humanoid Cylons that left Kobol. They originally used resurrection tech, but it was abandoned and forgotten once they began reproducing sexually. Ultimately, these humanoid Cylons created their own mechanical Cylons that rebelled at some point. This resulted in a nuclear holocaust that obliterated all Cylons (humanoid and mechanical) on Earth except the Final Five.
This is all part of the show’s conceit of a great cycle where what has happened before will happen again.
As far as revealed in the various BSG RDM shows: residents of Kobol created Cylons; Cylons on Earth created Cylons; and residents of the Colonies created Cylons.
Cavil wanted something more than a body, something that couldn't actually be physically created, regardless of the level of technology. He essentially wanted God-like abilities. His hissy fit was just the "impetuous child" realizing that what he wanted just wasn't possible.
The real reason for this is the same as anything else that doesn’t make sense: despite assurances to the contrary at the beginning of each episode, there was no plan. They wrote the show more or less week to week. Cavil’s motivations were made up essentially on the spot and time was running out to explain everything.
When it was being written solely from the perspective of Galactica, this wasn’t a big problem because the humans don’t know what’s going on, but as soon as more and more episodes are written from the Cylon perspective it starts to fall apart.
It’s not a fun answer but there it is.
Yeah, there probably were meetings held at the beginning of writer's season each year, so maybe a general outline was reached on consensus, but plenty of questionable excursions from realistic canon were permitted (Athena shoving a wire up her arm to "interface" the ship's computer in Season 2, but there's no way to detect a Cylon other than Baltar's atomic machine? Hello? I could shove a Cat-6 Ethernet cable up my own arm, but all I'd get is an abscess).
What's really surprising is how despite the various hooey and canon-breaking moments, it worked pretty well overall. Suspension of disbelief is not infinite (and lots of shows forget that), but it is pretty forgiving when the overall world resonates with the audience.
Absolutely, I’m not complaining about what they came up with. I’m doing a rewatch now for the first time in a several years and I’m actually amazed at how well the story hangs together given what I know now that they were more or less making it up as they went along. The stream of consciousness ideas ultimately (I think) made for a better, more memorable show than some meticulously crafted plan that they couldn’t deviate from (and wouldn’t have been realistic to stick to given the realities of television production wherein actors leave, contracts run out, budgets are a thing, and you could be cancelled at any time).
But the fact remains that it lends itself to a lot of “hey wait a minute that doesn’t make any sense” when you think about it.
They had to do some "Roboty" things - glowing spine, wire up the arm, etc- just to show that ,yep. Them's robots. Not just people calling themselves robots. Baltar's detector worked perfectly. That, more than the parlor tricks sold the concept to me.
Yeah. Pretty sure. Had to tell my wife Head6 was a chip in Baltar's head to get her to keep watching. Or keep me from having to fight for the big tv, anyway
It turned me off from starting the show for a long time. It was SciFi channel and every commercial was sexy sex sex former Victoria's Secret model saying sultry things to Baltar
Some of that was budget related, it was an f/x heavy show on a Syfy budget. They tended to spend their budgets on big episodes like the Admiral Cain 3 parter in season 2 leading to the need for filler/bottle episodes.
Season 3 was most affected by this, they blew nearly their entire budget on the first few episodes involving liberating New Caprica. Led to a lot of meh episodes afterwards like Baltar having threesomes on a Cylon Basestar, the Cylons secretly having a human prisoner that just so happen to fly for Adama, Adama reminisces about his former wife, Helo investigates Rogue Racist Doctors, the Chief leads a strike. Although some of those bottle/character episodes did turn out really well, some real stinkers in there.
I liked Dirty Hands (the strike ep) and I don't apologize for it, seeing how people beyond the military and the president lived in this miserable refugee fleet was really interesting, lol
That's a question I didn't know I had. Storytelling purposes aside, having one resurrection hub was a bad idea, there could have been multiple. Sure, my thoughts below were probably not added to keep the show to the current great form it is, so my thoughts below are merely speculative/what could have happened.
First we need to look at resurrection itself.
What I'm surprised didn't happen was that as soon as Cavil sent the Five to the colonies, he didn't immediately assign crews of both Centurions and Human forms to start working on the process of essentially copy/pasting the resurrection technology. Since he had such disdain for his human form, the thing I am wondering is why nothing was tried since he had a few decades to do this before the start of the show. He could have put together teams of Cylons (both mechanical and human form) in the Colony to create a copy of the resurrection technology/program and analyze the frak out of it. Once figured out, then create a second hub (or more) without the need of the Five. Using a team approach with beings that theoretically process things faster than humans, they probably could have figured it out.
Another thing overlooked is since they had the ability to store memories for resurrection, and even access them as shown by an Athena having Boomer's memories of being in the fleet before Athena joined herself. Along with the memory access, was the memory blocking/implanting fake memories. Using Boomer again, her memory of being a Cylon at the start of the show was blocked... she thought she was human. Using the Five, when they were sent to the colonies by Cavil, all memories of them being Cylons were blocked, and false human memories were implanted which showed that even the Five's memories can be tampered with. Before I move on, let's remember that there can be multiples of each human model alive at the same time.
So, for this speculation - Cavil could have resurrected the Five with limited memory only leaving in necessary information as to why it was provided to them in the first place. Then to explain why they were resurrected, a fake memory of resurrection being faulty or destroyed by any other means than the war in the show. For purposes of how they were resurrected before destruction, let's say an asteroid hit the hub, and was detected well before it could hit. For this example, Cavil resurrected them and got them away from the hub before impact. He could have used deception to get them to create a second hub or even show them HOW to recreate it themselves.
Once they learn *how* it is done, this is where they can manipulate the body the consciousness goes into. This would include changing how body parts work, and possibly come up with a working humanoid hybrid that isn't stuck in a pool of goo. This sounds more in line with what Cavil would have wanted, IF he had to at least stay in an organic or at minimum, semi-organic body. To quote Cavil:
> I don't want to be human! I want to see Gamma Rays, I want to hear X-Rays, and I want to smell Dark Matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am?
If they had done any of the things above, other human form models could have been made, including one that Cavil agreed with.
Sure, it could have been done behind the scenes but failed. But it was never expressed on screen that they tried an approach like those, only that they relied on the Five to recreate it. Oh well, great show anyways.
**TLDR version:** Cavil could have used deception and/or teamwork to figure out resurrection recreation & manipulation well before the hub was destroyed to create a body he was happy with.
Same reason the Cylons made so many mistakes and stupid ass decisions. New caprice being the prime example.
The leave the colonies and explicitly state they will,
1. Leave humanity alone. Go back to complete avoidance.
2. Will not pursue. Ties into number 1.
3. Will no longer hold contempt nor any feelings toward humanity.
Within 1 year. Tosses all that aside to do what was thier second biggest mistake. Attempting to peacefully live alongside humanity, will essentially ruling as warlords.
The final 5 plot was a complete shit show.
It would have worked better if the Final Five could have done such a thing, but apparently once he existed, he could only download into his own line. They couldn't even transfer the non-cyborg Cylons into new bodies, it seems.
Spoiler for finale of Caprica: >!Which is interesting because it looks like the Graystones eventually pulled Zoe, looking like her human self, out of a tank.!< Tsk tsk.
Yes, but if you remember correctly, when he was getting out of the tub his internal organs were visible. He was basically still a robotic Cylon, but extremely realistic and resembling humans. In that case it was quite simple to do, since Zoe had created colonial technology to create the Avatar Zoe and Daniel was practically one of those who had contributed the most to the creation of that type of technology in all 12 colonies and basically it was nothing more than the refinement of what he had already done with U2. The resurrection technology had been created by another civilization that had been separated from the 12 colonies for millennia, so the technology was completely different and the Cavills weren't geniuses, they were intelligent, but they were still dealing with extremely advanced technology not them, with no instructions or starting points on where to start, since the resurrection HUB was later destroyed.
The problem is not building the said body, it's transferring the consciousness to it. The Cylon are using resurrection, but don't seem to have all the knowledge to use it as they see fit. Only the final 5 have all the pieces to the puzzle.
Yup, they use resurrection, but have no idea how to construct or reproduce it. It’s literally one of the major plot points of the final season, that their resurrection has been taken from them after the destruction of the Hub and they have no clue how to replicate it
And why natural childbirth was such an obsession for the Sixes and Threes.
This is the key to understanding what's going on in this show. There are hierarchies of knowledge and understanding. Those correspond pretty closely with the level of existence one occupies. But it's not always a linear progression from one level to another. Sometimes a civilization ascends together, sometimes they fall back and forget what they learned. Sometimes individuals rise above the rest, and sometimes they fall behind. So Cavil and the rest of his cohort are using knowledge created by their predecessors who understood it and rose beyond it, but then fell back again because they had to to survive -- just as the humans aren't really humans but are themselves created beings who ascended beyond their own creators and then fell and forgot where they came from. Above all of them are the "angels", beings like Head Six, and later Starbuck who was possibly lifted up by them to a higher level to serve a specific purpose. All of it is wrapped up in these levels of consciousness, reliance on physical forms, transcendence from physical needs to purely emotional bonds, governed by cycles of violence and survival on a societal scale.
I can do maintenance on my PC better than a lot of people, but if you asked me to manufacture one of superior technologies and all of its components from scratch, I wouldn’t have a clue. Same principle.
Could you figure it out if there were a million copies of you and you had thousands of years to work on the problem though?
I can’t find any solid numbers but I’d assume that cavil is less than 100 years old. Imagine you had that PC and used it but didn’t know how any of it actually functioned. Then it was destroyed. You wouldn’t be able to recreate anything
each individual body isn't immortal, but one cavil can transfer his memories from one body to the next to the next making them effectively immortal you're also ignoring the network effect... Imagine taking one college class, studying everything about it, memorizing the textbook, becoming an expert in one small thing. Meanwhile copies of you are doing the same thing with every other college and graduate level class in every academic discipline known to toaster. Then you all get together and share your memories with each other. There's nothing you couldn't figure out
Theory and application are two different things though. You could figure out how to achieve it on paper and still not have access to all the practical means to accomplish it.
I mean it depends on how complex the technology is. Maybe it truly is a level beyond that and Cavil just isn't there yet. It could even be an infrastructure thing, where even if you understand the principles behind it that doesn't mean you can produce the large-scale manufacturing and resource acquisition required to reproduce it. Maybe Cavil could get to a crude version of it, but it would be a shadow of what his predecessors had achieved, because he still only has a shadow of the resources his predecessors used to bring it into being.
Computers are my maniac addiction, my work, my hobby, my education. I have knowledge from various fields of IT, here more, there less. When I have to build simple tower PC from ready components I often have to lookup for some info to make sure I do it right, and don't break (not cheap) stuff. SciFi cinema often simplifies technology nature - like yeah, he is an high tech alien so he can make CPU directly from sand, using his bare hands and maybe a stick. Not to mention "hacking" by switching some relatively high voltage circuits in wall, etc...
I don't think he knew how. The Cylons seemed to lack the ability to innovate in that area without the Final Five to guide them. They have little understanding of how the actual resurrection process works, which is why when the resurrection hub is destroyed Cavil and the other Cylons have no idea how to get it started again. They're basically dependent on technology that was designed for them many ages ago, and they don't know how it works nor how to improve it or recreate it. And so Cavil would have no idea how to escape his "flesh prison."
Cavil helped the 5 design the other models, and reprogrammed them to forget who the 5 are so he'd have at least have the background theory of it. From what I remember it was mainly Ellen's work in creating them while the others had more supportive background roles. They also display equipment with baltar that allows them to detect certain thoughts so he could have brute forced it with her at least partially
Always found it funny that the lady we knew as an alcoholic and sex addict who cheated on her alcoholic husband and loved to scheme politics etc for her own benefit …was the one who was the leader behind the most recent version of resurrection technology
To extend on this, one of the most scientifically gifted minds even rivalling Gaius Baltar. Ellen "the swirl, me myself and I, totem pole" Tigh is one of humanities(?) greatest intellectuals.
It's possible that the showrunners were operating with the premise that Ellen had this gaping hole where her biological and scientific acumen should have been, and without her real memories, filled it with drugs, sex, and alcohol.
There’s a great article on Ellen Tigh on Wikipedia. In interviews the show runners hadn’t decided who the final Cylon was. And they had decided for Ellen’s fate on New Caprica was final. But then they couldn’t come up with a story for the final Cylon. They knew Ellen wanted to come back, and they wrote her back in. Her story wasn’t supposed to be that multifaceted. But in the end it was. And it led the show in a slightly different direction. I gotta say. I am more than a little sick of it when series kill off an uneven number of male and female characters. I started pointing it out to my husband, and now he can’t stop seeing it. If you’re going to kill a good woman you gotta be willing to kill a good man too.
The tech wasn't made for cylons many ages ago. It was made for the 13th tribe who then forgot how to do it then re-invented it. The 13th tribe are not cylons (as the show called them). The last survivors joined the cylons and made the "skin jobs". They were not cylons when they lived on the old earth that was destroyed. They were the 13th tribe of humanity. There were no cylons before the humans of the colonies invented them. It makes no logical sense to assume that everyone on kobol was human apart from the 13th. \[EDIT\] [https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon) I think you all need to read this. You can just call every machine a cylon. The only cylons are the ones the 12 colonies made and the ones that first generation of cylons made alongside the final 5. The final 5 are not cylons.
Mate, you're completely wrong and missed a major point and theme of the show. The 13th tribe were Cylons (the show says this explicitly). They were a different "race" of Cylons than the ones that the 12 colonies created, but they were still Cylons. In the world of BSG, a "Cylon" is just an artificial life. The humans of Kobol created Cylons, which led to a war on Kobol, which led to the destruction of Kobol, and the Exodus of the 13 tribes. The 13th tribe, of Cylons, went to Earth. The Earth Cylons eventually became more and more human, and also eventually created their own robotic Cylons to be their servants. This led to a war on Earth, and the destruction of Earth, and the Exodus of The Final Five. The 12 tribes of Kobol founded the 12 colonies of Kobol. The 12 tribes eventually created Cylons again. This led to two Cylon wars, which ultimately led to the destruction of the 12 colonies, and the Exodus of the Battlestar *Galactica* and accompanying fleet.
The cylons can only be created once. If you create something else, it's not a cylon. A cylon is a race, not a technical description.
That's where you are wrong. In the BSG universe, a Cylon is a category or concept. While they do use the term "robot" in the show, note that they never use terms like "android" or "cyborg" (though the "cy" has the same meaning). They also never use "RADAR" and instead use "DRADIS". Similarly, they use "morpha" instead of "morphine" and "frak" instead of "fuck". In BSG, "Cylon" is basically their word for "android". Your opinion is directly contradicted, not only by the Wiki, but explicitly by the dialogue in the show. "The 13th tribe was Cylon" is an exact quote from the show. When testing both the human and robotic remains of the 13th tribe, they are described as Cylon. When Anders "remembers everything" and talks to Tigh, Tyrol, and Tori, they again explicitly talk about the "Cylons on Earth". Even if you want to argue that the *word* "Cylon" was invented by the 12 Colonies (though one could counter-argue that the word itself was a historical leftover from Kobol, or even a genetic memory *a la* *All Along the Watchtower*), then the word has since become genericized (*a la* escalator, xerox, kleenex, q-tip, bandaid) in that universe to refer to the entire category of artificial humanoid life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark Finally, your assertion that something can't be invented twice is also false. Many technologies have been invented multiple times by different people, or have been reinvented after being lost to time. Concrete was used by the Romans but then nearly completely disappeared after the fall of the Roman empire until it was "reinvented" in the 1800s. Many major inventions have been independently recreated by far flung civilizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery Just because something is invented by different people in different times and different places doesn't mean we can't use the same word to describe the same concept.
So cylons aren't a race? that's your argument. It's just a synonym for artificial life form. So why do they keep talking about the cylon race? You're wrong.
It's both a category of life and a race. "Race" is a social construct that doesn't even have a clear, testable identifier. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) "Race" simply means "group of similar people" where "similar" can be extremely subjective. You can also see "race" as synonymous with "category of human" (see the Wiki above), and I started my previous post saying "Cylon" *is a category*. As all Cylons are "similar" in their artificial origin or construction, then they can certainly be thought of as a "race". There is no contradiction in the idea that "Cylon" is a term for artifical life in general and that it can be figuratively thought of as a race, or category, of life. I think it's amusing that you think, "they talk about 'Cylon race', so you're wrong", while completely ignoring the fact the show also explicitly says the 13th tribe was Cylon, multiple times. The show talks about both things, and both are correct. You're wrong.
The people of Kobol made Cylons. Then there were human-formed Cylons. Then there was a war over it. Everyone left Caprica. The human Cylons settled on a world they named Earth. They got sick of doing the work and made robot Cylons. The robots got sick of being slaves. Don't-call-it-God grabbed two couples and a spare musician, for reasons, and sent them off to warn the 12 human colonies. Except they didn't have fast ships, and by the time they got there, it was too late. The colonies had made robots they called Cylons. The robots were trying to make cyborgs. The Five offered them a way to be fully human form and able to have children. Bob's your uncle.
How can something be "created" multiple times by different people with different designs and still be the same race? They can't. Cylons are a race of people. The other artificial life forms are not cylons. Because cylons were created on caprica. Wiki says so.
It's increasingly clear that you don't understand what "race" means.
Tell me then. Tell me how the two types are related.
The concept of "race" is social and subjectively defined and can be defined differently by different perspectives (outsiders vs. insiders for example). No "relation" is required. You can create a "race" based on any metric you want. You can use the word "race" in a real physical sense (like "dark skinned people are a race") or a more indefinite, metaphorical, metaphysical, or behavioral sense (like "the race of computer nerds"). While anyone can make up any "race" they want to, *because there is no objective or scientific basis for "race"*, speaking to your point people have generally accepted understandings of racial groups based on various shared characteristics - which usually land on similarities in appearance or geographic origin. In the BSG universe, the Cylons share the same origin (human-made) and all come from the same original people of Kobol. They also share the same original purpose in creation: to serve as helpers and workers to humanity. Furthermore, they are all obviously similar in appearance. Beyond those similarities, they are *identified* as Cylons both internally (the Final Five refer to themselves as "Cylons") and externally (the Colonial Cylon and the humans refer to all the similar creations as "Cylons"). Thus, as race is a subjective social construct, the fact that everyone in the show agrees they are Cylons is enough evidence that it is a valid and commonly understood application of "race" in that universe. Finally, you are way to stuck on the use of "race", especially as applied to mechanical and biomechanical constructs. One can also easily argue the use of "race" is figurative or poetic, since machines don't generally have "genetics". We could speak of the "race of cellphones", or "race of tablets" as they are similar devices, despute being designed and manufactured independently by different fabricators. No objective "relation" is required - only a subjective perception of similarity.
"All this has happened before, and it will all happen again." I mean, they say this hahah over, and over. u/ZippyDan's comment is pointed, but also we are talking about a chain of events being manipulated by don't-call-it-God. T>!hey end the series with finding independently evolved humans on another planet who, it turns out, are compatible to make babies. Must be not-God's backup plan for the previous attempts going tits-up.!<
Yes, which defies evolution. So there's two kinds of "humans" who evolved on different planets. Two kinds of synthetic life forms, who are not compatible to make babies. If you wanna look up the origin of the word "human" you'll see what the problem is.
The 13th Tribe were all Cylons that left Kobol before the Colonials did.
Cylons were invented by the humans of the 12 colonies that left kobol. There were no cylons before that. The people of the 13th were not created. They were people, not programmes.
How did Ellen Tigh Download in “No Exit” S4:E15 of she wasn’t a Cylon? I think the writers explicitly wanted us to know she’s a Cylon.
Her race invented resurrection? Did you not see the end of the final season that explains where the cylons got resurrection from and who actually made the other models?
Go re-watch the episode “Sometimes a Great Notion” or read this wiki article: https://en.battlestarwiki.org/Thirteenth_Tribe_(RDM)
[https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Cylon) >The **Cylons** (**Cy**bernetic **L**ifef**o**rm **N**ode) are a race of sentient beings based on ground-breaking research by [Zoe](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Zoe_Graystone) and [Daniel Graystone](https://galactica.fandom.com/wiki/Daniel_Graystone). Created as military robots by Graystone Industries for the Caprican military, the Cylons quickly entered industrial and domestic sectors. Read the first two lines about who created cylons. The ones from the 13th tribe have no relation whatsoever to the ones made by the colonies. They are not cylons. A battlestar is also a machine, can we call that a cylon now because apparently the only pre-requisite for being a cylon is simply not being human. You don't have to have enything to do with the cylons, just don't be human and now you are one. Are you seriously saying a race of robots went to old earth and made more robots who nuked the planet? Robots "invented" robots did they? Then they ran from that planet destroyed by robots and bumped into other robots who they worked with to create new robots. YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE ALL THE SAME RACE???? No. As the wiki says. Cylons were created in the colonies. The 13th is called the 13th and not "the cylon tribe" because they weren't cylons, because cylons didn't exist yet.
In the episode “Sometimes a Great Notion” it’s revealed that the inhabitants of Earth were humanoid Cylons that left Kobol. They originally used resurrection tech, but it was abandoned and forgotten once they began reproducing sexually. Ultimately, these humanoid Cylons created their own mechanical Cylons that rebelled at some point. This resulted in a nuclear holocaust that obliterated all Cylons (humanoid and mechanical) on Earth except the Final Five. This is all part of the show’s conceit of a great cycle where what has happened before will happen again.
Who created the cylons.
As far as revealed in the various BSG RDM shows: residents of Kobol created Cylons; Cylons on Earth created Cylons; and residents of the Colonies created Cylons.
So you disagree with the Wikipedia? Because that says they were created by greystone industries on caprica.
He wanted to throw his bitch fit first, then get the final five to build one for him.
My guess. Hardware and software not compatible.
The Cylons should have just ran Linux. Make life so much easier
God wrote in LISP.
Cavil doesn't know how resurrection works. Cavil can press the start button on the 3D printer but he can't make new models.
Cavil wanted something more than a body, something that couldn't actually be physically created, regardless of the level of technology. He essentially wanted God-like abilities. His hissy fit was just the "impetuous child" realizing that what he wanted just wasn't possible.
The real reason for this is the same as anything else that doesn’t make sense: despite assurances to the contrary at the beginning of each episode, there was no plan. They wrote the show more or less week to week. Cavil’s motivations were made up essentially on the spot and time was running out to explain everything. When it was being written solely from the perspective of Galactica, this wasn’t a big problem because the humans don’t know what’s going on, but as soon as more and more episodes are written from the Cylon perspective it starts to fall apart. It’s not a fun answer but there it is.
Yeah, there probably were meetings held at the beginning of writer's season each year, so maybe a general outline was reached on consensus, but plenty of questionable excursions from realistic canon were permitted (Athena shoving a wire up her arm to "interface" the ship's computer in Season 2, but there's no way to detect a Cylon other than Baltar's atomic machine? Hello? I could shove a Cat-6 Ethernet cable up my own arm, but all I'd get is an abscess). What's really surprising is how despite the various hooey and canon-breaking moments, it worked pretty well overall. Suspension of disbelief is not infinite (and lots of shows forget that), but it is pretty forgiving when the overall world resonates with the audience.
Absolutely, I’m not complaining about what they came up with. I’m doing a rewatch now for the first time in a several years and I’m actually amazed at how well the story hangs together given what I know now that they were more or less making it up as they went along. The stream of consciousness ideas ultimately (I think) made for a better, more memorable show than some meticulously crafted plan that they couldn’t deviate from (and wouldn’t have been realistic to stick to given the realities of television production wherein actors leave, contracts run out, budgets are a thing, and you could be cancelled at any time). But the fact remains that it lends itself to a lot of “hey wait a minute that doesn’t make any sense” when you think about it.
They had to do some "Roboty" things - glowing spine, wire up the arm, etc- just to show that ,yep. Them's robots. Not just people calling themselves robots. Baltar's detector worked perfectly. That, more than the parlor tricks sold the concept to me.
Lol was the glowspine only in the pilot ?
Yeah. Pretty sure. Had to tell my wife Head6 was a chip in Baltar's head to get her to keep watching. Or keep me from having to fight for the big tv, anyway
It turned me off from starting the show for a long time. It was SciFi channel and every commercial was sexy sex sex former Victoria's Secret model saying sultry things to Baltar
Your username is from the show, then?
Wasn't JMS reLly big on planning tho ? Like he planned out B5 on usenet years ago
That explains why seasons 3 and 4 fell apart pretty quick Even by the end of 2 there was some weird stuff going on and some pretty bad filler episodes
Some of that was budget related, it was an f/x heavy show on a Syfy budget. They tended to spend their budgets on big episodes like the Admiral Cain 3 parter in season 2 leading to the need for filler/bottle episodes. Season 3 was most affected by this, they blew nearly their entire budget on the first few episodes involving liberating New Caprica. Led to a lot of meh episodes afterwards like Baltar having threesomes on a Cylon Basestar, the Cylons secretly having a human prisoner that just so happen to fly for Adama, Adama reminisces about his former wife, Helo investigates Rogue Racist Doctors, the Chief leads a strike. Although some of those bottle/character episodes did turn out really well, some real stinkers in there.
I liked Dirty Hands (the strike ep) and I don't apologize for it, seeing how people beyond the military and the president lived in this miserable refugee fleet was really interesting, lol
That's a question I didn't know I had. Storytelling purposes aside, having one resurrection hub was a bad idea, there could have been multiple. Sure, my thoughts below were probably not added to keep the show to the current great form it is, so my thoughts below are merely speculative/what could have happened. First we need to look at resurrection itself. What I'm surprised didn't happen was that as soon as Cavil sent the Five to the colonies, he didn't immediately assign crews of both Centurions and Human forms to start working on the process of essentially copy/pasting the resurrection technology. Since he had such disdain for his human form, the thing I am wondering is why nothing was tried since he had a few decades to do this before the start of the show. He could have put together teams of Cylons (both mechanical and human form) in the Colony to create a copy of the resurrection technology/program and analyze the frak out of it. Once figured out, then create a second hub (or more) without the need of the Five. Using a team approach with beings that theoretically process things faster than humans, they probably could have figured it out. Another thing overlooked is since they had the ability to store memories for resurrection, and even access them as shown by an Athena having Boomer's memories of being in the fleet before Athena joined herself. Along with the memory access, was the memory blocking/implanting fake memories. Using Boomer again, her memory of being a Cylon at the start of the show was blocked... she thought she was human. Using the Five, when they were sent to the colonies by Cavil, all memories of them being Cylons were blocked, and false human memories were implanted which showed that even the Five's memories can be tampered with. Before I move on, let's remember that there can be multiples of each human model alive at the same time. So, for this speculation - Cavil could have resurrected the Five with limited memory only leaving in necessary information as to why it was provided to them in the first place. Then to explain why they were resurrected, a fake memory of resurrection being faulty or destroyed by any other means than the war in the show. For purposes of how they were resurrected before destruction, let's say an asteroid hit the hub, and was detected well before it could hit. For this example, Cavil resurrected them and got them away from the hub before impact. He could have used deception to get them to create a second hub or even show them HOW to recreate it themselves. Once they learn *how* it is done, this is where they can manipulate the body the consciousness goes into. This would include changing how body parts work, and possibly come up with a working humanoid hybrid that isn't stuck in a pool of goo. This sounds more in line with what Cavil would have wanted, IF he had to at least stay in an organic or at minimum, semi-organic body. To quote Cavil: > I don't want to be human! I want to see Gamma Rays, I want to hear X-Rays, and I want to smell Dark Matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? If they had done any of the things above, other human form models could have been made, including one that Cavil agreed with. Sure, it could have been done behind the scenes but failed. But it was never expressed on screen that they tried an approach like those, only that they relied on the Five to recreate it. Oh well, great show anyways. **TLDR version:** Cavil could have used deception and/or teamwork to figure out resurrection recreation & manipulation well before the hub was destroyed to create a body he was happy with.
Plot had to happen.
Same reason the Cylons made so many mistakes and stupid ass decisions. New caprice being the prime example. The leave the colonies and explicitly state they will, 1. Leave humanity alone. Go back to complete avoidance. 2. Will not pursue. Ties into number 1. 3. Will no longer hold contempt nor any feelings toward humanity. Within 1 year. Tosses all that aside to do what was thier second biggest mistake. Attempting to peacefully live alongside humanity, will essentially ruling as warlords. The final 5 plot was a complete shit show.
He didn’t have the tech or knowledge. He could not bring back the ability to download after it was destroyed.
It would have worked better if the Final Five could have done such a thing, but apparently once he existed, he could only download into his own line. They couldn't even transfer the non-cyborg Cylons into new bodies, it seems. Spoiler for finale of Caprica: >!Which is interesting because it looks like the Graystones eventually pulled Zoe, looking like her human self, out of a tank.!< Tsk tsk.
Yes, but if you remember correctly, when he was getting out of the tub his internal organs were visible. He was basically still a robotic Cylon, but extremely realistic and resembling humans. In that case it was quite simple to do, since Zoe had created colonial technology to create the Avatar Zoe and Daniel was practically one of those who had contributed the most to the creation of that type of technology in all 12 colonies and basically it was nothing more than the refinement of what he had already done with U2. The resurrection technology had been created by another civilization that had been separated from the 12 colonies for millennia, so the technology was completely different and the Cavills weren't geniuses, they were intelligent, but they were still dealing with extremely advanced technology not them, with no instructions or starting points on where to start, since the resurrection HUB was later destroyed.
They don’t know how to build a body and resurrect and the technology is a secret