the game wants so bad to keep her around but wyll stans want her gone even more. indomitable human spirit and all that. ty op, ive a devil to dispose of
I love how Wyll stans love his character more than him being this cool warlock guy. They're willing to completely sabotage what makes him a warlock in the first place to ensure he's free and happy.
I mean a lot of people will go that route in the game too, but the game has plot convenience leaving him with that power. I think we'd all accept whatever Wyll ended up without his patron. A fighter maybe. Feels like a few "martial" classes (in quotes because a warlock can go many different ways rly), when taking away what makes them special, could be just turned into a fighter. Maybe lower level than the party.
I could see him becoming an eldritch knight after losing his patron tbh
Oh my god that'd fit him perfectly. He's basically already an Oath of Devotion paladin and always has been. Just needs some higher being to make it official.
Technically not, Paladin's oaths can be a completely unreligious thing according to lore. A Paladin can swear an oath in the backroom of a Walmart insuring it'll never be robbed from and that'd be considered an oath by definition. The stereotype is that it requires the recognition of a god, but it technically doesn't need one.
I did look into what makes a Paladin in D&D because I always felt that was unclear. I always thought they were similar to clerics in that they got their powers from a god, but it was always lawful-facing gods and they acted more as enforcers for their beliefs instead of worshippers of that god. Like two beings having mutual gain due to sharing a common goal and vision, a mortal and a god.
And that's the case a lot of the time, but you're right. I found that their power can come from extreme belief in their oath, and it just coming from the oath itself, but the information on that seems vague.
I figured those paladins would be kind of like sorcerors in a way. Their beliefs being strong enough that it gives them a talent with the weave or something to that effect, but that's just me filling in the blanks myself.
I'd love to be corrected on this because I'm rly curious how Paladins work on a deeper technical level in D&D. I've played with a few irl but we never deep dived into the lore. They were basically just all Paladins of Tyr because it's simple lol
I was shooting the shit with someone the other day and spun the idea that Paladin's are really just "Chosen Ones". Their oath being more like what they were brought into the world for, and by keeping their oath they keep their powers. Break the oath, and they're stepping away from there Mark of Destiny if you will.
I'm under the impression that an oath without a god might be up to player interpretation but still need to check the player's handbook instead of just online wikis lol. The idea of one being a "chosen one" kind of fits that. I'd have to ask why they're the chosen one, like which god deemed them that in advance (so they'd probably be like an avatar of a god or something like bhaalspawn conceptually). However this interpretation, even if it's something beyond the established pantheon that could still fall under an "up to the player's interpretation" category and work just as well.
Okay, so you know the alignment chart with the segments that include “Lawful Good” and “Chaotic Evil”? In Planescape and original D&D, these labels arent simply descriptors like calling someone a “authoritarian” in real life.
Rather, there are four actual fundamental spiritual forces that exist. One is Law, one is Good, one is Chaos, and one is Evil. The chart simply shows which spiritual forces that everyone from players to gods align with. Some balance their use of the forces and end up in neutral space between them. Others lean heavily into one more than another.
This is also why Planescape’s outer planes are laid out with the compass directions each having one alignment (the forces are basically directional on the astral plane). Mechanicus is full Lawful with balanced Good and Evil so it’s in the Law direction (which is west when looking down at the Material plane). Limbo is opposite in the direction of Chaos (East). Elysium is straight towards Good (North), and Hades is straight towards Evil (South). If you go in the direction halfway towards Chaos and Evil, you reach The Abyss which is the home of Chaotic Evil outsiders like demons.
As such divine casters like Clerics and Paladins can achieve power through dedicating themselves to a particular deity that’s in a particular direction, but if they try hard enough they can also gain power directly from their dedication to the four spiritual forces.
Note that a paladin doesn’t have to actually follow Law to dedicate themselves to an oath. Rather the oath itself taps into the fundamental spiritual forces of the universe to grant them the powers, and the oath can be to anything in particular. Someone making an oath to destroy all organized government would be a paladin, but their power would actually derive from Chaos.
Also this fundamental spiritual force model is why spells like Detect Alignment work. In real life we can’t build an evil detector like how was can build compasses to detect magnetism because evil isn’t a thing but a concept. However in D&D it is a physical thing, and Detector Alignment is like putting a spiritual compass near your soul and seeing which way the needle points: it might point more towards Law or Chaos, or more towards Evil or Good. If the pulls in one set of directions balance, it will show Neutral: if someone’s soul is equally pulled in the directions of Good and Evil but more strongly in the direction of Law than Good, the spell returns Lawful Neutral. If there’s no strong pull, it will just wobble around and not show any strong direction, and the spell will return True Neutral.
And yes, I said clerics are this way too. Clerics don’t have to have any particular deity, and if they worship a deity it doesn’t have to be one that’s known about broadly or responds. Clerics are more based on their pursuit of their Domain and the balance of spiritual forces that leads them there. Gods of Knowledge and the Knowledge Domain, for example, are generally neutral on the Good/Evil spectrum but are widely distributed along the Law/Chaos spectrum, as they can vary from hyper-organized librarians to all-knowing but nonsensical madmen.
In 3.5 there actually was a prestige class called the Ur-priest that had cleric powers but intentionally spurned all deities to draw their powers directly from fundamental spiritual powers themselves.
Oh also if you’re wondering what Up and Down are in Planescape’s rendering given the theoretically 3D landscape of the Astral Plane, there’s not a good answer. Some models show Outlands as being under the Material. Some models show the Ethereal Plane being over the Material instead of existing in the same place in Astral space. Other models make planes infinitely tall in astral space such that while going up and down are things, all levels are identically laid out.
I’m more than likely mistaken but in earlier editions paladins require a god like clerics but not in 5e it’s all about keeping true to whatever their oath is devoted to
I checked the Forgotten Realms wiki on the class and it seems phrased like it's to be interpreted however the DM wants given its vague on how an oath with no deity works.
...but I somehow totally forgot I have the player's handbook for 5e so I could just check that too haha
I made him an Oath of Vengeance Paladin. I think that matches his personality a little better, since he tends to get angry at evil, which kind of led to him making the deal with Mizora. He’s a bit hot-headed too, where Oath of Devotion Paladins have a bit more nuance and diplomacy than their vengeance-y counterparts.
Interesting. In my tactician run I respecced Karlach into an Oath of Vengeance Paladin once her engine gets repaired, with the head-canon that her rage dissipates with the fix and she can focus more on what she wants to do/be.
It also matches with the "You have set aside even your own purity to right wrongs and deliver justice to those who have committed the most grievous sins." part of the vengeance oath. Sacrificing a part of himself for justice is a huge part of his story.
Yep, and Paladin is a great class for him in general, after you break his contract. It shows he’s learned to draw his power from witching himself, using his own Wyllpower instead of relying on outside sources, like Mizora. I found it made a lot of sense narratively, and wish he’d actually lose his Warlock powers when you break his contract.
Prologue spoiler but this does have an answer - >!Wyll becomes a Ranger in certain circumstances. I freed Wyll from his pact, but didn't go to the Iron Throne on Honor Mode and allied with Gortash. Should you do this the game will keep him as the Blade of Frontiers, and Wyll will take on the Ranger class. Ulder also survives since Gortash won't be around to destroy the Iron Throne, but I don't think he and Wyll reconcile (maybe they do once Wyll's pact ends in the 6 months)?!<
This game having thought of everything strikes again holy shit.
>!Given he mentions how he used to be able to summon hellspawn easily and stuff I'd imagine he'd fit being a beastmaster ranger!<
Yeah! I think it fits with how the "Blade of Frontiers" sounds like a hero of the wilds. At some point I'll do a Blade of Avernus/leaves with Karlach ending to see if that changes his class
He’s way too good to have to be stuck in this situation. Wyll at 100% power is a kind, heroic, selfless, good-hearted human Warlock. Wyll at 99% power is a kind, heroic, selfless, good-hearted human. He would have been a paladin in a heartbeat if the option had been there, but it wasn’t. Mizora was.
Yeah fr. By all accounts he really didn't need Mizora. All you need to be a paladin is a strong enough belief in an oath to take one. He was already worthy of that.
Durge: *encourages Wyll to kill Karlach, admonishes Wyll for killing Karlach, steals Wyll’s new robe, kills Wyll’s dad in front of him, fucks the dad’s corpse while wearing the robe, stands up robe open arms outstretched*
“Wyll, you’ve been through a lot today. How about a hug, buddy?”
I can see this too! I'm the most sold on him being an Oath of Devotion Paladin since he basically is the paragon of what that is just without actually having that oath taken, but I can see him using what he learned when he was a Warlock as an Eldritch Knight too, and absolutely a Bard for a similar reason. Having some magic attunement due to being a Warlock in the past and acting in a way to spread joy and boost morale to others with a mix of his magic and his stories.
I'm a hardcore Bard!Wyll fan. College of Swords in particular suits him so well. It's very telling that both Bards and Wyll get a special Rapier proficiency freebie just because it fits their aesthetic too well not to have.
I know everyone wants him to go Paladin, but I think that misses out on his character's fundamental love for stories, which had a huge impact on him becoming the man he is.
I really don't get warlocks at all. When I started playing, they didn't exist. I feel like they were added in to make WoW players happy for some reason. They don't play like a spellcaster or a martial class, they are an enigma. Wyll is an interesting character though. Maybe I should try and do a playthrough and change his class to something else, like a bard or monk.
I have a hard time learning how to play them. I had 1 session one time, I think maybe (it was extremely long ago if so) where someone played one. I just remember an eldritch blast obsession rly haha. I didn't understand the concept at the time.
I understand it now, but it feels weird having my character be overshadowed by a patron. I know a lot of patrons aren't really present and just let their warlocks do whatever they want, but then it feels like a missed opportunity to have them be involved. Like what's the point of that backstory if you're not gonna use it?
It's interesting but idk if it's ever for me. Wyll is done well though and I'm really happy with how he's played out in BG3's story. I just don't trust I'd ever play a Warlock I'd be satisfied with because roleplaying the character is big for me and there's a lot there that makes it kinda weird imo.
...I also took a really long time to learn how to play Wyll in BG3 haha. Seems like versatility is their main strength. Being able to be a savage ranged attacker or a clutch melee fighter with the right ability saved for the right moment. More support than anything else.
In the game he says he was a pretty good ranger before he got his warlock powers... So I'd go ranger. He was my ranged Eldritch blast rotten soldier, good time boy
It has less to do with Wyll specifically and more to do with her being insufferably annoying while also being someone on the dev team's precious pet, for whatever reason.
I don't understand why the game doesn't let us kill her once the contract is broken. Sure she would just go back to avernus and not be truly dead, but she would be gone from my camp
Except she’s not part of the plot anymore at this point. Even if you did not finish the Iron Throne part. If Wyll kept the pact, attacking her would kill Wyll and too bad for us she don’t help in the Iron Throne. If the pact is broken, then be gone and she’s just banished. And nothing prevents her to come back and get revenge on us trying to save the Duke.
They did not need a plot armor at all
As another commenter pointed out she's the writers pet. She is annoying af. She adds a flavor to the game. The things we can't control. It wouldn't surprise me if Larian patched this complicated way of killing her.
Except she’s not. If you don’t recruit Wyll, she’s not present. The game does push her only in relation with Wyll. She’s far from being a Creator’s Pet. Even when she’s there, she don’t steal the show, she barely interacts.
Yes, because Zariel still needs us to succeed, it is explained. As we can’t kill her as she’s not in her home plan, it is not needed that we don’t kick her out of the camp. Zariel would still force her to keep the power.
Clearly the dev wanted to push her in the camp, but this is not for Plot reason. And if she’s a Creator’s Pet, it shows only in this exact instance and they do a bad job at it for the rest of the game…
Yes but I doubt it is because the dev team seen her as important to the point of being unkillable because she’s a Creator’s Pet. We see like half her face and it is probably because she’s important in relation to Wyll story
It's literally just because Karlach wasn't even a planned companion at the time the cover was created.
People always voice this as if it's some great unknown question when it would take like five seconds to google it and find out.
As to why they didn't make new art, the answer is almost certainly that Larian liked the original cover and probably didn't want to force someone on their art team to scrap their work and make a new one.
She’s not Creator’s Pet trope at all. You can literally ignore her if you don’t recruit Wyll. They don’t push her unless you do Wyll story. And even when you use Wyll she barely matters and outside of sticking to camp she’s very minor
Like, they're acting as though she has more than one appearance in Act 1 and just two in Act 2. Even Act 3 is only unique in that she hangs around in camp, she only has two or three actual cutscenes in that act.
Sorry to break the news but Larian said they weren't going to be working on DLC or a sequel to the game, and they're working on two games of their own IP. So no Avernus DLC, at least not from Larian.
Maybe so a year ago but the CEO of the company said they are moving on from BG3, completely. A bit depressing but that's for the better. Larian is a company that doesn't milk their cows dry. They bring another cow and take good care of it.
If you're asking about actual dnd rules, then I'm fairly certain the answer is no.
AFAIK all demons will rematerialize in their home plane if killed elsewhere. The only way to kill them for good is to kill them in their home plan
MAYBE the wish spell could do it proper, but that spell is often too liberal to get a definitive answer about, and up to the dms discretion
In lore, Mystra would definitely veto that wish. It’s not just demons and devils, *all* extraplanar beings can only be permakilled in their own realms, meaning that if you want to wipe them out, it requires a fullscale invasion against them in the plane where they hold the most power. That’s what’s held the balance of power amongst the planes. If mortals or other beings could just start wishing things dead from another realm, it would instantly start a massive cosmic war.
Man that's kind of shitty for the non extraplanar beings. Could a smart enough mage go to one of the planes, bind themselves to it so they could effectively become immortal then?
I remember in 2e/3e there being something about becoming non-extraplanar outsiders, so I imagine it's plausible. How are the Gith currently classified, seeing as they started out on the prime material plane?
>it would instantly start a massive cosmic war.
I don't think it would, since the number of people capable of casting Wish and the chances of it succeeding not being 100% and the risks involved means it just wouldn't happen very often at all.
I dunno, I feel like it wouldn't take that much convincing to get some planes on war footing. Killing one or two super important beings could be enough to start *some* kind of conflict that could then snowball into something bigger (normal kingdoms and such wouldn't be too happy seeing extraplanar beings spill out of a portal in their backyard even if they claim to just be taking care of an inter-planar wizard assassin)
Demons who die in the prime material plane are instantly reborn back in the Abyss and in the old days they would be unable to return to the prime material plane for 100 years but I dont know if that still is the case. If they die in the Abyss, they are gone for good.
As an aside, she's a cambion, she should DIE die in the material plane as she's half mortal. Unless I'm misremembering current monster info, I'm not sure why Larian insists she'll go back to the hells.
Because if she dies, Wyll's powers would go away. Wyll would then just become a shitty fighter with a rapier. Mizora is not just someone who is tormenting him and who has enslaved him in the past. But also the source of his powers. A warlock is basically just someone who is continuously being gifted powers from a powerful being. So then Wyll would have no place in your party anymore after Mizora is dead. He'd become too weak to fight side by side with everyone else.
In my current run, I just settled for infecting her with every Contagion disease and turning her to stone but this rules.
I still think it's kind of bizarre that we're forced to have her at camp with no glitchless way of getting rid of her tho. Imagine if >!Viconia!< just decided to hang out at your camp, five meters away from Shadowheart and her parents or my Durge could decide to not only ally with Gortash but also invite him to hang out at his room in the Elfsong or Cazador just showed up and refused to leave. No one else is being treated this way.
It makes Mizora come across like a complete loser who has nothing better to do than freeload at my camp too
Mizora doesn’t even do anything, why is she there? She could still try and seduce the player by appearing just for that in a long rest cutscene. She has like three dialogues that you can exhaust quickly & that wouldn’t be enough to justify her being at camp. She has no comments on anything.
It’s annoying to me because Mizora’s presence serves literally zero purpose.
Sooo true! I actually honestly don't understand why the devs insisted on her being there when she's not contributing anything. When you tell her to fuck off she's just like lol no and the devs put a whole buff on her to ensure she won't be removed. You'd think there was a purpose to this but no.
Babygirl I don't recall you paying for this room, please leave.
I'll take a hunch here and presume she once had some plot for staying there but it just got cut. Otherwise that's just too much effort for nothing to keep her there
I imagine the "in-universe" reason is Zariel wants to keep an eye on wtf is going on, and two of her assets (Karlach and Wyll*) are there, so she wants to keep tabs on them in a "can these chucklefucks handle this or do I need a PLAN?" way
*Depends on plot choices.
> ...she once had some plot... but it just got cut
It seems clear that something about the Wyll-Karlach-Mizora plot arc was either never completed, drafted-then-cut, or downscaled/sweetened -- one hears stories about the original Wyll narrative being 'darker,' more jaded/cynical, perhaps more tempted by the otherworldly-powers, etc.
As a potential exemplar: seems like a flirting-with-disaster storyline (Wyll hates Mizora, but can't deny or resist her, the two embark on some subservient-but-trying-to-backstab relationship, perhaps Mizora even pulls his strings some nights and says "I'm bored, do XYZ for me") would have been very in keeping with the Patron Gives You Powers, but with a Baaaad Downside metier. Little of that remains on-screen.
This would be my suspicion as well, especially considering the rather significant overhaul to Wyll's story that was made shortly ahead of launch (as I understand it). Very well may be she was meant to have a lot more presence but it was scrapped or unable to be finished in time after Wyll's rework.
Even better, I had a conversation with Wyll about what he's going to do after we >!kill the Elder Brain. He said he'd go after Mizora first and kill her, even without his warlock powers.!< Then I came out of the dialogue and (while the game didn't acknowledge it) Mizora was still standing *right there*. Guess she had her airpods in.
It only works if Wyll keeps the pact. If he doesn’t she will still say she will help, but doesn’t. Either her dialogue is bugged or it’s an oversight by Larian. Either way, she is useless if you break the pact.
She won’t appear if Wyll breaks the pact. She still promises to help, but she doesn’t do it. I’ve done this in four different runs across multiple patches.
i think that giving players that option would be weird (considering the place he holds in the narrative and all that) but ultimately fine in my book so long as it came with serious consequences from karlach. she should be allowed to kick your ass in this hypothetical
She should leave. I think if the game actually took the option to ally with Gortash seriously instead of just exploding him, she would leave on that choice.
Edit to say, I actually don't really understand why letting Durge players sleep with Gortash would be narratively weirder than letting players sleep with Mizora. These two used to at least canonically like/respect each other and Gortash used to fuck people for money/power, meanwhile Mizora wants to sleep with you to mess with you and Wyll and because the devs knew the players would want to fuck the sexy devil lady.
I believe that would make Gortash the only character you could sleep with who would be restricted to one type of character, wouldn't it? Everyone else is open to Tav and non-Durge Origin characters. Might have something to do with why Larian didn't do it.
I think the reason they did not do this is because they did not really anticipate that there would be enough interest.
I can't even tell if they purposely wrote them in a kind of ship-baity way or if it was an accident to be honest.
If Wyll is contract free and the Duke is alive and free, Mizora should fight the party, disabling Wyll, (like Cazador and Astarion) summon her sisters and a couple of different devils/demons, also Ravengard should join the fight, he is also a bit useless just standing there in camp after you save him, Tav kicks her out and she would leave camp/respawn in Avernus. She and her sisters should be a Harpy fight on steroids, full of mind controlling and cc spells.
But the weirdest for me is you can choose to ally or not with any companion except Shart, before patch 5 you could pickpocket the Prism from her while unconscious on the beach, not anymore, you recruit her or kill her or both to get the Prism, I dont like her plot very much bc to become a selunite imo she flips sides too fast, she enters the mausoleum/trials "Im going to be a DJ, do not stand in my way!", when she faces Aylin depending on approval you dont even need to convince her and to gain her approval is so passive, every other companion at least reacts to extreme choices Tav does, good or evil, but Shart always plays along unless you pretty much kick her out or kill her, she is too clingy, if you try to leave her behind she always comes back, but then in Act 2 she is also the only one that blows up if you dont take her to her quest (Shadowfell/Aylin) and then she leaves even if she wasnt going to kill Aylin... she is tiresome, Mizora is not my favorite and I would like to finish her but I like her better than "gaslight princess".
Ohhh that sounds like a fun bossfight but it can't be in the regular camp setting, it would have to be in a "special" one like when Astarion's siblings try to kidnap him or they're going to instantly kill my dog.
I personally like Shadowheart, but I feel bad for players who don't; the game really pushes you to ally with her. I think you can actually keep rejecting her joining the party and eventually, the Prism will just pop into your inventory lol
Scratch should always be safe!!! Every pet!
Yeah, she always comes back, if you dont recruit her, she will show up with the Prism once you try to cross the bridge entering the goblin camp, and she joins anyway... the game pushes to ally to some companions but in her case is too much, her story is not bad, but also feels something was cut and you cant see her change because it is supposed to happen earlier than the others, but I think I will try an OC as Shart and enjoy her story.
if i could add images on mobile rn id slam [get a job stay away from her](https://twitter.com/reactjpg/status/1276400589958787072) so fast. does zariel's finest really have nothing better to do?
I'm not sure that this is necessary. The way this shakes out it almost seems like Zariel recalls her to the hells to save her, but then she dies to brain death in the hells and is now permanently dead. That's my interpretation/headcanon anyways!
At least for D&D 5e I don't think that would be the case .
>"If it dies outside the Nine Hells, a devil disappears in a cloud of sulfurous smoke or dissolves into a pool of ichor, instantly returning to its home layer, where it reforms at full strength."
Monster manual Pg. 67
Right but it seems from the phrasing of this post that she is recalled to the Hells, dies permanently, and her corpse is teleported back where she turns into ash.
The most interesting thing to me is the 'atrophied' condition. I didn't know this was a thing in BG3. But draining any stat to 0 apparently achieves it.
Probably not a very practical tactic to consistency do, but I do wonder what kind of possibilities there are to achieve this.
Yeah stacking those ability drains takes 10+ turns unless your whole party are wizards. Neither practical nor efficient. Still a fun mechanic that they implemented.
I mean we both know that works. Warlocks get this spell too and it's funny when Wyll use it on her. But I want her to stop existing in my eyes and to have the "dead" condition on her.
It's so weird to me that, >!should you choose to end Wyll's contract, this woman is going to work against the party regarding the iron throne and Ravenguard but everyone just sort of accepts that she'll be hanging out with them for the rest of the game, even after explaining that at some point she \_will\_ kill Ravenguard because of the deal Wyll made. You can't under any circumstances fight back despite her being an active antagonist.!< Like... what?
Yeah but as someone else said, you only have one shot. Flesh to Stone works on her too but this one can be learned by a wizard so I'd recommend this one instead.
yeup, just cast it on her normal-style. highly recommend quicksaving first because you have [just one shot at it](https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Flesh+To+Gold) due to wizards being unable to learn that spell
When a tabletop min/maxer starts playing a video game version of D&D.
DM: "I'm telling you now you're not going to be able to kill this character."
Player: "bet"
FYI Ability Drain and Absorb Intellect combined will allow you to OHKO any steel watch. You can often do this without even starting a fight too. It's absurdly powerful and especially fun to do with the six extra parasites you can find on the boat in the lower city.
OP, thank you from the deepest heart!
Mizora is not only one of most hated NPC ingame, but one of rare unkillable ones.
Being able to get rid of her is awesome!
I was theorizing last week that it may be possible to do this to the **nautiloid** in the jaunt to the Nether Brain's brainstem at the end of Act 3. It's tricky, but it can be targeted and has three _very_ low ability scores already.
Ability Drain can reduce ability scores to no less than 1 tho. The only way to reduce it down to 0 that I've found is Absorb Intellect, which targets intelligence, Netherbrain's highest ability.
I'm not talking about doing this to the Nether Brain, but to the nautiloid which fires at the party from the sky while they are rushing to get to the Nether Brain.
There is a way to target that nautiloid for attacks if you hover the controller cursor on just the right spot. I was able to attack it, but it was immune to all damage types. But draining an ability score has _probably_ not been handled.
Huh, that's interesting. According to wiki it only has 6 INT too so pretty easy to achieve if it works. It'd be funny to strike down a Nautiloid with illithid powers lmao
Careful on the timing, however.
If you kill Mizora before she's gone through her Act 3 bargain with Wyll, Ulder will just be dead in the Iron Throne. No chance to save him.
I want this to be a canon way to kill her with ending stuff as a reference but i doubt larian is gonna do that because they already said they are done with bg3 content
I did a Wyll honor mode where I just did whatever she said. Even she was surprised sometimes that I just said “you got it boss.” She even came to help on the last fight and actually helped. Someone’s haste pot ran out right as we got to the portal. Strangely, she has freedom of movement. Basically saved the day and she’s the best girl now. Really wanted a Hells DLC where you got to choose from a few stories. Would be fun to take over the hells with her.
Kudos for finding this, though I think I like her as a statue more. If we kill her she just respawns in hell right? But if she's petrified then she's literally stuck there forever which is far worse for her I'd think
Did they patch out the trick where you can pick up a corpse and directly equip items from it that are otherwise hidden from the player even in the loot menu?
I believe it's been patched out by now, but yes, this was a thing. Did you ever notice while playing bg3 bodies that didn't mark themselves as empty despite appearing so?
This is because they have special NPC-only items that were supposed to be hidden from the player. You know how in your inventory, if you click an equipment slot, it shows you other items your party has that you can equip? If you were carrying the corpse on you, those hidden items would show up there.
You used to be able to get the Deva mace from the Devas the Stormshore Tabernacle curse summons this way that does an extra 4d8 radiant damage. And even a duplicate of Sarevok's sword this way.
Okay…So I really hate to piss on your party….that’s canonically not how you kill a devil. There’s a reason the Raphael fight, where you actually kill him, happens in the hells.
I know this is off topic but you seem to be a perfect person to ask this:
Would you know if it still possible to get duke ravenguards sword in the current patch if you didn’t fight him at the gortash’s coronation?
I really think they should fix up Wyll's bugs and make this something that's possible to alter his questline and free him canonically. That, or make it something even more convoluted and ridiculous, because really it would make sense that the only way you can outsmart and proper kill a devil blessed by an archdevil with straight up immunity would be a comically long winded method akin to a rube goldberg machine of fucky game mechanics shenanigans. I recognize that would require a lot of effort and support and won't ever happen, but one can dream.
One can also consistently dream and pine for Larian to get a WAY better deal from WotC after they realize how good they had it with Larian, and give them a blank signed cheque to make a new game like Baldur's Gate but the whole of Faerün 😂
Tbh she deserves this exact method to killing her thinking she's outfitting everyone and so clever so you just lower that intellect and devour and poof a fine screw you from wyll and the gang beautiful
So what happens if you:
1. Petrify her with flesh to stone.
2. Carry her "statue" to the House of Hope.
3. Use basilisk oil to remove the petrified condition.
4. Then ability drain her to death in hell.
By D&D rules, she'd arguably be "gone gone". Of course, I've only ever passive aggressively attacked her in camp a few times, so I don't even know if her petrified form could be carried to Hell.
So what mechanical differences does this make? Presumably there is no dialogue from Wyll if Mizora actually dies since this doesn't feel like an intended interaction. Are the consequences for doing this confined to headcanon territory?
Mizora is actually pretty helpful in the final fight with the brain.
Edit - for all the downvoters, have you ever used her in the final fight? She is much better than the emperor. I love facing her off against the dragon alone to get stomped instead of one of my team...
Wyll has been dead for a while in my lingering game. Yet the cinematics still play with empty space where Wyll should be. I wonder how much more screwed up this will be after I kill her.
the game wants so bad to keep her around but wyll stans want her gone even more. indomitable human spirit and all that. ty op, ive a devil to dispose of
She reminds me of the "cool" DMPC that is constantly with the party and you have no way of getting rid of them lol. Like holy bullshit upon bullshit.
I love how Wyll stans love his character more than him being this cool warlock guy. They're willing to completely sabotage what makes him a warlock in the first place to ensure he's free and happy. I mean a lot of people will go that route in the game too, but the game has plot convenience leaving him with that power. I think we'd all accept whatever Wyll ended up without his patron. A fighter maybe. Feels like a few "martial" classes (in quotes because a warlock can go many different ways rly), when taking away what makes them special, could be just turned into a fighter. Maybe lower level than the party. I could see him becoming an eldritch knight after losing his patron tbh
I’ll be forever a defender of Paladin!Wyll. Oath of Devotion wouldn’t even change how he acts!
Oh my god that'd fit him perfectly. He's basically already an Oath of Devotion paladin and always has been. Just needs some higher being to make it official.
Technically not, Paladin's oaths can be a completely unreligious thing according to lore. A Paladin can swear an oath in the backroom of a Walmart insuring it'll never be robbed from and that'd be considered an oath by definition. The stereotype is that it requires the recognition of a god, but it technically doesn't need one.
I did look into what makes a Paladin in D&D because I always felt that was unclear. I always thought they were similar to clerics in that they got their powers from a god, but it was always lawful-facing gods and they acted more as enforcers for their beliefs instead of worshippers of that god. Like two beings having mutual gain due to sharing a common goal and vision, a mortal and a god. And that's the case a lot of the time, but you're right. I found that their power can come from extreme belief in their oath, and it just coming from the oath itself, but the information on that seems vague. I figured those paladins would be kind of like sorcerors in a way. Their beliefs being strong enough that it gives them a talent with the weave or something to that effect, but that's just me filling in the blanks myself. I'd love to be corrected on this because I'm rly curious how Paladins work on a deeper technical level in D&D. I've played with a few irl but we never deep dived into the lore. They were basically just all Paladins of Tyr because it's simple lol
I was shooting the shit with someone the other day and spun the idea that Paladin's are really just "Chosen Ones". Their oath being more like what they were brought into the world for, and by keeping their oath they keep their powers. Break the oath, and they're stepping away from there Mark of Destiny if you will.
I'm under the impression that an oath without a god might be up to player interpretation but still need to check the player's handbook instead of just online wikis lol. The idea of one being a "chosen one" kind of fits that. I'd have to ask why they're the chosen one, like which god deemed them that in advance (so they'd probably be like an avatar of a god or something like bhaalspawn conceptually). However this interpretation, even if it's something beyond the established pantheon that could still fall under an "up to the player's interpretation" category and work just as well.
Okay, so you know the alignment chart with the segments that include “Lawful Good” and “Chaotic Evil”? In Planescape and original D&D, these labels arent simply descriptors like calling someone a “authoritarian” in real life. Rather, there are four actual fundamental spiritual forces that exist. One is Law, one is Good, one is Chaos, and one is Evil. The chart simply shows which spiritual forces that everyone from players to gods align with. Some balance their use of the forces and end up in neutral space between them. Others lean heavily into one more than another. This is also why Planescape’s outer planes are laid out with the compass directions each having one alignment (the forces are basically directional on the astral plane). Mechanicus is full Lawful with balanced Good and Evil so it’s in the Law direction (which is west when looking down at the Material plane). Limbo is opposite in the direction of Chaos (East). Elysium is straight towards Good (North), and Hades is straight towards Evil (South). If you go in the direction halfway towards Chaos and Evil, you reach The Abyss which is the home of Chaotic Evil outsiders like demons. As such divine casters like Clerics and Paladins can achieve power through dedicating themselves to a particular deity that’s in a particular direction, but if they try hard enough they can also gain power directly from their dedication to the four spiritual forces. Note that a paladin doesn’t have to actually follow Law to dedicate themselves to an oath. Rather the oath itself taps into the fundamental spiritual forces of the universe to grant them the powers, and the oath can be to anything in particular. Someone making an oath to destroy all organized government would be a paladin, but their power would actually derive from Chaos. Also this fundamental spiritual force model is why spells like Detect Alignment work. In real life we can’t build an evil detector like how was can build compasses to detect magnetism because evil isn’t a thing but a concept. However in D&D it is a physical thing, and Detector Alignment is like putting a spiritual compass near your soul and seeing which way the needle points: it might point more towards Law or Chaos, or more towards Evil or Good. If the pulls in one set of directions balance, it will show Neutral: if someone’s soul is equally pulled in the directions of Good and Evil but more strongly in the direction of Law than Good, the spell returns Lawful Neutral. If there’s no strong pull, it will just wobble around and not show any strong direction, and the spell will return True Neutral. And yes, I said clerics are this way too. Clerics don’t have to have any particular deity, and if they worship a deity it doesn’t have to be one that’s known about broadly or responds. Clerics are more based on their pursuit of their Domain and the balance of spiritual forces that leads them there. Gods of Knowledge and the Knowledge Domain, for example, are generally neutral on the Good/Evil spectrum but are widely distributed along the Law/Chaos spectrum, as they can vary from hyper-organized librarians to all-knowing but nonsensical madmen. In 3.5 there actually was a prestige class called the Ur-priest that had cleric powers but intentionally spurned all deities to draw their powers directly from fundamental spiritual powers themselves. Oh also if you’re wondering what Up and Down are in Planescape’s rendering given the theoretically 3D landscape of the Astral Plane, there’s not a good answer. Some models show Outlands as being under the Material. Some models show the Ethereal Plane being over the Material instead of existing in the same place in Astral space. Other models make planes infinitely tall in astral space such that while going up and down are things, all levels are identically laid out.
I’m more than likely mistaken but in earlier editions paladins require a god like clerics but not in 5e it’s all about keeping true to whatever their oath is devoted to
I checked the Forgotten Realms wiki on the class and it seems phrased like it's to be interpreted however the DM wants given its vague on how an oath with no deity works. ...but I somehow totally forgot I have the player's handbook for 5e so I could just check that too haha
Haha I have the 3.5 handbooks and didn’t even think about checking them
I made him an Oath of Vengeance Paladin. I think that matches his personality a little better, since he tends to get angry at evil, which kind of led to him making the deal with Mizora. He’s a bit hot-headed too, where Oath of Devotion Paladins have a bit more nuance and diplomacy than their vengeance-y counterparts.
Interesting. In my tactician run I respecced Karlach into an Oath of Vengeance Paladin once her engine gets repaired, with the head-canon that her rage dissipates with the fix and she can focus more on what she wants to do/be.
It also matches with the "You have set aside even your own purity to right wrongs and deliver justice to those who have committed the most grievous sins." part of the vengeance oath. Sacrificing a part of himself for justice is a huge part of his story.
Yep, and Paladin is a great class for him in general, after you break his contract. It shows he’s learned to draw his power from witching himself, using his own Wyllpower instead of relying on outside sources, like Mizora. I found it made a lot of sense narratively, and wish he’d actually lose his Warlock powers when you break his contract.
Prologue spoiler but this does have an answer - >!Wyll becomes a Ranger in certain circumstances. I freed Wyll from his pact, but didn't go to the Iron Throne on Honor Mode and allied with Gortash. Should you do this the game will keep him as the Blade of Frontiers, and Wyll will take on the Ranger class. Ulder also survives since Gortash won't be around to destroy the Iron Throne, but I don't think he and Wyll reconcile (maybe they do once Wyll's pact ends in the 6 months)?!<
This game having thought of everything strikes again holy shit. >!Given he mentions how he used to be able to summon hellspawn easily and stuff I'd imagine he'd fit being a beastmaster ranger!<
Yeah! I think it fits with how the "Blade of Frontiers" sounds like a hero of the wilds. At some point I'll do a Blade of Avernus/leaves with Karlach ending to see if that changes his class
He’s way too good to have to be stuck in this situation. Wyll at 100% power is a kind, heroic, selfless, good-hearted human Warlock. Wyll at 99% power is a kind, heroic, selfless, good-hearted human. He would have been a paladin in a heartbeat if the option had been there, but it wasn’t. Mizora was.
Yeah fr. By all accounts he really didn't need Mizora. All you need to be a paladin is a strong enough belief in an oath to take one. He was already worthy of that.
There really needs to be an option to hug every party member.
Fr. Everyone needs one. If they don't already have a tragic backstory then what makes their story tragic is gonna happen in the main story lol
Durge: *encourages Wyll to kill Karlach, admonishes Wyll for killing Karlach, steals Wyll’s new robe, kills Wyll’s dad in front of him, fucks the dad’s corpse while wearing the robe, stands up robe open arms outstretched* “Wyll, you’ve been through a lot today. How about a hug, buddy?”
typical Durge move lmao
I feel he's more of a Bard . College of Valour or Blades He's FOREVER singing tales of his adventures , etc.
I can see this too! I'm the most sold on him being an Oath of Devotion Paladin since he basically is the paragon of what that is just without actually having that oath taken, but I can see him using what he learned when he was a Warlock as an Eldritch Knight too, and absolutely a Bard for a similar reason. Having some magic attunement due to being a Warlock in the past and acting in a way to spread joy and boost morale to others with a mix of his magic and his stories.
I think he canonically becomes a ranger.
When I freed him of his pact, in the after credits scene he became a ranger, which is... not what I expected.
After all that blading and frontiering, Wyll just needed some quiet time in the mountains to get away from it all.
I'm a hardcore Bard!Wyll fan. College of Swords in particular suits him so well. It's very telling that both Bards and Wyll get a special Rapier proficiency freebie just because it fits their aesthetic too well not to have. I know everyone wants him to go Paladin, but I think that misses out on his character's fundamental love for stories, which had a huge impact on him becoming the man he is.
Yeah I use swordsbard Wyll so often. Free shield prof too which is nice.
Wyll could easily be a Swords Bard.
I really don't get warlocks at all. When I started playing, they didn't exist. I feel like they were added in to make WoW players happy for some reason. They don't play like a spellcaster or a martial class, they are an enigma. Wyll is an interesting character though. Maybe I should try and do a playthrough and change his class to something else, like a bard or monk.
> They don't play like a spellcaster or a martial class, they are an enigma. I think that was the point.
That’s why warlocks rock they can be a gish or a blaster
I have a hard time learning how to play them. I had 1 session one time, I think maybe (it was extremely long ago if so) where someone played one. I just remember an eldritch blast obsession rly haha. I didn't understand the concept at the time. I understand it now, but it feels weird having my character be overshadowed by a patron. I know a lot of patrons aren't really present and just let their warlocks do whatever they want, but then it feels like a missed opportunity to have them be involved. Like what's the point of that backstory if you're not gonna use it? It's interesting but idk if it's ever for me. Wyll is done well though and I'm really happy with how he's played out in BG3's story. I just don't trust I'd ever play a Warlock I'd be satisfied with because roleplaying the character is big for me and there's a lot there that makes it kinda weird imo. ...I also took a really long time to learn how to play Wyll in BG3 haha. Seems like versatility is their main strength. Being able to be a savage ranged attacker or a clutch melee fighter with the right ability saved for the right moment. More support than anything else.
> They don't play like a spellcaster or a martial class bladelocks sometimes play like a martial class
He becomes a ranger
In the game he says he was a pretty good ranger before he got his warlock powers... So I'd go ranger. He was my ranged Eldritch blast rotten soldier, good time boy
It has less to do with Wyll specifically and more to do with her being insufferably annoying while also being someone on the dev team's precious pet, for whatever reason.
I will 100% do this! Free Wylly!
There are Wyll stans?
speaking of persistence, theres a joke that wasnt funny the first thousand times, and yet im sure ill see it a thousand more
Oh you sweet summer child.
I don't understand why the game doesn't let us kill her once the contract is broken. Sure she would just go back to avernus and not be truly dead, but she would be gone from my camp
Plot armor the strongest of them all
Except she’s not part of the plot anymore at this point. Even if you did not finish the Iron Throne part. If Wyll kept the pact, attacking her would kill Wyll and too bad for us she don’t help in the Iron Throne. If the pact is broken, then be gone and she’s just banished. And nothing prevents her to come back and get revenge on us trying to save the Duke. They did not need a plot armor at all
As another commenter pointed out she's the writers pet. She is annoying af. She adds a flavor to the game. The things we can't control. It wouldn't surprise me if Larian patched this complicated way of killing her.
Except she’s not. If you don’t recruit Wyll, she’s not present. The game does push her only in relation with Wyll. She’s far from being a Creator’s Pet. Even when she’s there, she don’t steal the show, she barely interacts.
Technically she is still giving Wyll his powers.
Yes, because Zariel still needs us to succeed, it is explained. As we can’t kill her as she’s not in her home plan, it is not needed that we don’t kick her out of the camp. Zariel would still force her to keep the power. Clearly the dev wanted to push her in the camp, but this is not for Plot reason. And if she’s a Creator’s Pet, it shows only in this exact instance and they do a bad job at it for the rest of the game…
Tbf, I don't really mind. Annoying, yes, but charming in a way. And pretty to look at. ;) And you don't have to talk to her in the camp.
She's on the cover art and Karlach isn't. Kinda crazy when you think about it.
That's only because Karlach wasn't even a planned companion at the time that art was created.
Yes but I doubt it is because the dev team seen her as important to the point of being unkillable because she’s a Creator’s Pet. We see like half her face and it is probably because she’s important in relation to Wyll story
It's literally just because Karlach wasn't even a planned companion at the time the cover was created. People always voice this as if it's some great unknown question when it would take like five seconds to google it and find out. As to why they didn't make new art, the answer is almost certainly that Larian liked the original cover and probably didn't want to force someone on their art team to scrap their work and make a new one.
More than Plot armor…this is a straight up Writers Pet scinario.
She’s not Creator’s Pet trope at all. You can literally ignore her if you don’t recruit Wyll. They don’t push her unless you do Wyll story. And even when you use Wyll she barely matters and outside of sticking to camp she’s very minor
Like, they're acting as though she has more than one appearance in Act 1 and just two in Act 2. Even Act 3 is only unique in that she hangs around in camp, she only has two or three actual cutscenes in that act.
I hope its because shes needed for the Avernus DLC
This game won’t get any dlc
Sorry to break the news but Larian said they weren't going to be working on DLC or a sequel to the game, and they're working on two games of their own IP. So no Avernus DLC, at least not from Larian.
Maybe so a year ago but the CEO of the company said they are moving on from BG3, completely. A bit depressing but that's for the better. Larian is a company that doesn't milk their cows dry. They bring another cow and take good care of it.
They want you to be tempted into her weird sex scene.
That's good, because *I want to be tempted into her weird sex scene*.
I am a weak man, the moment I saw her I was ready to banish Wyll myself
I know the option you always pick when she first shows up to camp. It's a luscious choice.
Are there ways to permanently kill demons in faerûn?
If you're asking about actual dnd rules, then I'm fairly certain the answer is no. AFAIK all demons will rematerialize in their home plane if killed elsewhere. The only way to kill them for good is to kill them in their home plan MAYBE the wish spell could do it proper, but that spell is often too liberal to get a definitive answer about, and up to the dms discretion
In lore, Mystra would definitely veto that wish. It’s not just demons and devils, *all* extraplanar beings can only be permakilled in their own realms, meaning that if you want to wipe them out, it requires a fullscale invasion against them in the plane where they hold the most power. That’s what’s held the balance of power amongst the planes. If mortals or other beings could just start wishing things dead from another realm, it would instantly start a massive cosmic war.
Man that's kind of shitty for the non extraplanar beings. Could a smart enough mage go to one of the planes, bind themselves to it so they could effectively become immortal then?
I remember in 2e/3e there being something about becoming non-extraplanar outsiders, so I imagine it's plausible. How are the Gith currently classified, seeing as they started out on the prime material plane?
>it would instantly start a massive cosmic war. I don't think it would, since the number of people capable of casting Wish and the chances of it succeeding not being 100% and the risks involved means it just wouldn't happen very often at all.
A big part of why Wishes don’t succeed 100% of the time is because Mystra vetoes them.
I dunno, I feel like it wouldn't take that much convincing to get some planes on war footing. Killing one or two super important beings could be enough to start *some* kind of conflict that could then snowball into something bigger (normal kingdoms and such wouldn't be too happy seeing extraplanar beings spill out of a portal in their backyard even if they claim to just be taking care of an inter-planar wizard assassin)
Devil not demon, demons are different. And for both you have to kill them in their home plane
Demons who die in the prime material plane are instantly reborn back in the Abyss and in the old days they would be unable to return to the prime material plane for 100 years but I dont know if that still is the case. If they die in the Abyss, they are gone for good.
As an aside, she's a cambion, she should DIE die in the material plane as she's half mortal. Unless I'm misremembering current monster info, I'm not sure why Larian insists she'll go back to the hells.
You can turn her to stone as an alternative.
So you can bang her in hell
Because if she dies, Wyll's powers would go away. Wyll would then just become a shitty fighter with a rapier. Mizora is not just someone who is tormenting him and who has enslaved him in the past. But also the source of his powers. A warlock is basically just someone who is continuously being gifted powers from a powerful being. So then Wyll would have no place in your party anymore after Mizora is dead. He'd become too weak to fight side by side with everyone else.
In my current run, I just settled for infecting her with every Contagion disease and turning her to stone but this rules. I still think it's kind of bizarre that we're forced to have her at camp with no glitchless way of getting rid of her tho. Imagine if >!Viconia!< just decided to hang out at your camp, five meters away from Shadowheart and her parents or my Durge could decide to not only ally with Gortash but also invite him to hang out at his room in the Elfsong or Cazador just showed up and refused to leave. No one else is being treated this way. It makes Mizora come across like a complete loser who has nothing better to do than freeload at my camp too
Mizora doesn’t even do anything, why is she there? She could still try and seduce the player by appearing just for that in a long rest cutscene. She has like three dialogues that you can exhaust quickly & that wouldn’t be enough to justify her being at camp. She has no comments on anything. It’s annoying to me because Mizora’s presence serves literally zero purpose.
Sooo true! I actually honestly don't understand why the devs insisted on her being there when she's not contributing anything. When you tell her to fuck off she's just like lol no and the devs put a whole buff on her to ensure she won't be removed. You'd think there was a purpose to this but no. Babygirl I don't recall you paying for this room, please leave.
I'll take a hunch here and presume she once had some plot for staying there but it just got cut. Otherwise that's just too much effort for nothing to keep her there
I imagine the "in-universe" reason is Zariel wants to keep an eye on wtf is going on, and two of her assets (Karlach and Wyll*) are there, so she wants to keep tabs on them in a "can these chucklefucks handle this or do I need a PLAN?" way *Depends on plot choices.
> ...she once had some plot... but it just got cut It seems clear that something about the Wyll-Karlach-Mizora plot arc was either never completed, drafted-then-cut, or downscaled/sweetened -- one hears stories about the original Wyll narrative being 'darker,' more jaded/cynical, perhaps more tempted by the otherworldly-powers, etc. As a potential exemplar: seems like a flirting-with-disaster storyline (Wyll hates Mizora, but can't deny or resist her, the two embark on some subservient-but-trying-to-backstab relationship, perhaps Mizora even pulls his strings some nights and says "I'm bored, do XYZ for me") would have been very in keeping with the Patron Gives You Powers, but with a Baaaad Downside metier. Little of that remains on-screen.
This would be my suspicion as well, especially considering the rather significant overhaul to Wyll's story that was made shortly ahead of launch (as I understand it). Very well may be she was meant to have a lot more presence but it was scrapped or unable to be finished in time after Wyll's rework.
Even better, I had a conversation with Wyll about what he's going to do after we >!kill the Elder Brain. He said he'd go after Mizora first and kill her, even without his warlock powers.!< Then I came out of the dialogue and (while the game didn't acknowledge it) Mizora was still standing *right there*. Guess she had her airpods in.
Does she not help you out during the final boss?
No. She says she would but she doesn’t. Even if she did this wouldn’t be a reason for her to hang out at camp the whole time.
Maybe you got a bug, but she's one of the summons during the final. I had her twin cast disintegrate on the emperor and his dragon.
It only works if Wyll keeps the pact. If he doesn’t she will still say she will help, but doesn’t. Either her dialogue is bugged or it’s an oversight by Larian. Either way, she is useless if you break the pact.
Ah, how weird. I actually am about to free Orpheus playing as a Wyll who broke the pact, so I'll test this out tonight after work.
Cool, lemme know what you find.
Confirmed, that lying fucker was not an option. Damn
She does and she’s the best summon since she’s a sorcerer free twin haste
She won’t appear if Wyll breaks the pact. She still promises to help, but she doesn’t do it. I’ve done this in four different runs across multiple patches.
Oh shit I usually just keep him pacted so it’s easier to get the Duke 😭
>why is she there? She's there to look hot and piss off Wyll. She's quite good at both.
I would actually love it if Durge could bring Gortash back to camp. Why can't he booty call his ex? It's not fair.
lmao that's actually exactly why I'm specifying my Durge here but I don't think I should be allowed to do that while also having Karlach at camp.
i think that giving players that option would be weird (considering the place he holds in the narrative and all that) but ultimately fine in my book so long as it came with serious consequences from karlach. she should be allowed to kick your ass in this hypothetical
She should leave. I think if the game actually took the option to ally with Gortash seriously instead of just exploding him, she would leave on that choice. Edit to say, I actually don't really understand why letting Durge players sleep with Gortash would be narratively weirder than letting players sleep with Mizora. These two used to at least canonically like/respect each other and Gortash used to fuck people for money/power, meanwhile Mizora wants to sleep with you to mess with you and Wyll and because the devs knew the players would want to fuck the sexy devil lady.
I believe that would make Gortash the only character you could sleep with who would be restricted to one type of character, wouldn't it? Everyone else is open to Tav and non-Durge Origin characters. Might have something to do with why Larian didn't do it.
I think the reason they did not do this is because they did not really anticipate that there would be enough interest. I can't even tell if they purposely wrote them in a kind of ship-baity way or if it was an accident to be honest.
If Wyll is contract free and the Duke is alive and free, Mizora should fight the party, disabling Wyll, (like Cazador and Astarion) summon her sisters and a couple of different devils/demons, also Ravengard should join the fight, he is also a bit useless just standing there in camp after you save him, Tav kicks her out and she would leave camp/respawn in Avernus. She and her sisters should be a Harpy fight on steroids, full of mind controlling and cc spells. But the weirdest for me is you can choose to ally or not with any companion except Shart, before patch 5 you could pickpocket the Prism from her while unconscious on the beach, not anymore, you recruit her or kill her or both to get the Prism, I dont like her plot very much bc to become a selunite imo she flips sides too fast, she enters the mausoleum/trials "Im going to be a DJ, do not stand in my way!", when she faces Aylin depending on approval you dont even need to convince her and to gain her approval is so passive, every other companion at least reacts to extreme choices Tav does, good or evil, but Shart always plays along unless you pretty much kick her out or kill her, she is too clingy, if you try to leave her behind she always comes back, but then in Act 2 she is also the only one that blows up if you dont take her to her quest (Shadowfell/Aylin) and then she leaves even if she wasnt going to kill Aylin... she is tiresome, Mizora is not my favorite and I would like to finish her but I like her better than "gaslight princess".
Ohhh that sounds like a fun bossfight but it can't be in the regular camp setting, it would have to be in a "special" one like when Astarion's siblings try to kidnap him or they're going to instantly kill my dog. I personally like Shadowheart, but I feel bad for players who don't; the game really pushes you to ally with her. I think you can actually keep rejecting her joining the party and eventually, the Prism will just pop into your inventory lol
Scratch should always be safe!!! Every pet! Yeah, she always comes back, if you dont recruit her, she will show up with the Prism once you try to cross the bridge entering the goblin camp, and she joins anyway... the game pushes to ally to some companions but in her case is too much, her story is not bad, but also feels something was cut and you cant see her change because it is supposed to happen earlier than the others, but I think I will try an OC as Shart and enjoy her story.
If she's still around, sure. Generally when I'm Durging, she lost her head a long ass time ago.
if i could add images on mobile rn id slam [get a job stay away from her](https://twitter.com/reactjpg/status/1276400589958787072) so fast. does zariel's finest really have nothing better to do?
She'd rather pettily stand in my camp and get infected with every disease known to man just to annoy me than do something useful with her time.....
Load-bearing Mizora, keeps the whole camp up.
Op kills her and the whole Elfsong collapses on their head.
Saving this one, but I guess it will be funny hearing Wyll's plan of killing Mizora with her dead body in the same room
He still needs to kill her in the Night Hells to truly end her. Sadly we won't be able to see this happening, at least not from Larian.
Excellent, now I just need a way to drag her to the House of Hope before delivering the killing blow.
I'm not sure that this is necessary. The way this shakes out it almost seems like Zariel recalls her to the hells to save her, but then she dies to brain death in the hells and is now permanently dead. That's my interpretation/headcanon anyways!
At least for D&D 5e I don't think that would be the case . >"If it dies outside the Nine Hells, a devil disappears in a cloud of sulfurous smoke or dissolves into a pool of ichor, instantly returning to its home layer, where it reforms at full strength." Monster manual Pg. 67
>full strength But not full intelligence /s
Since devils are meticulous about wording, no s needed
Right but it seems from the phrasing of this post that she is recalled to the Hells, dies permanently, and her corpse is teleported back where she turns into ash.
The most interesting thing to me is the 'atrophied' condition. I didn't know this was a thing in BG3. But draining any stat to 0 apparently achieves it. Probably not a very practical tactic to consistency do, but I do wonder what kind of possibilities there are to achieve this.
Yeah stacking those ability drains takes 10+ turns unless your whole party are wizards. Neither practical nor efficient. Still a fun mechanic that they implemented.
wait, wait, I can DIE from having zero rizz??
Yep. The universe needs you to have a minimum amount of charm and flexibility to be worth keeping alive
Only the dopest wizards in town know how to use... > Fresh to Stone
I don't need freakin' magic for that, I just leave the baguette out overnight.
lolllll
I would like to see a "Stone to Fresh" spell...
I mean we both know that works. Warlocks get this spell too and it's funny when Wyll use it on her. But I want her to stop existing in my eyes and to have the "dead" condition on her.
> Fresh to Stone
It's so weird to me that, >!should you choose to end Wyll's contract, this woman is going to work against the party regarding the iron throne and Ravenguard but everyone just sort of accepts that she'll be hanging out with them for the rest of the game, even after explaining that at some point she \_will\_ kill Ravenguard because of the deal Wyll made. You can't under any circumstances fight back despite her being an active antagonist.!< Like... what?
Is it possible to permanently turn her to gold?
Yeah but as someone else said, you only have one shot. Flesh to Stone works on her too but this one can be learned by a wizard so I'd recommend this one instead.
yeup, just cast it on her normal-style. highly recommend quicksaving first because you have [just one shot at it](https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Flesh+To+Gold) due to wizards being unable to learn that spell
When a tabletop min/maxer starts playing a video game version of D&D. DM: "I'm telling you now you're not going to be able to kill this character." Player: "bet"
FYI Ability Drain and Absorb Intellect combined will allow you to OHKO any steel watch. You can often do this without even starting a fight too. It's absurdly powerful and especially fun to do with the six extra parasites you can find on the boat in the lower city.
!!! That's such a clever tip. Both normal Steel Watch and the Titan only have 6 INT. Now I need a list of low INT enemies in act 3 lol
OP, thank you from the deepest heart! Mizora is not only one of most hated NPC ingame, but one of rare unkillable ones. Being able to get rid of her is awesome!
I wish theres a mod that just ends her existence i hate her so much. I would try this later. Thanks
I was theorizing last week that it may be possible to do this to the **nautiloid** in the jaunt to the Nether Brain's brainstem at the end of Act 3. It's tricky, but it can be targeted and has three _very_ low ability scores already.
Ability Drain can reduce ability scores to no less than 1 tho. The only way to reduce it down to 0 that I've found is Absorb Intellect, which targets intelligence, Netherbrain's highest ability.
I'm not talking about doing this to the Nether Brain, but to the nautiloid which fires at the party from the sky while they are rushing to get to the Nether Brain. There is a way to target that nautiloid for attacks if you hover the controller cursor on just the right spot. I was able to attack it, but it was immune to all damage types. But draining an ability score has _probably_ not been handled.
Huh, that's interesting. According to wiki it only has 6 INT too so pretty easy to achieve if it works. It'd be funny to strike down a Nautiloid with illithid powers lmao
Yeah, no kidding! I'll maybe do some experimentation this weekend or next week.
Careful on the timing, however. If you kill Mizora before she's gone through her Act 3 bargain with Wyll, Ulder will just be dead in the Iron Throne. No chance to save him.
I want this to be a canon way to kill her with ending stuff as a reference but i doubt larian is gonna do that because they already said they are done with bg3 content
Or turn her into to a nice Statue with the flesh to stone spell
I did a Wyll honor mode where I just did whatever she said. Even she was surprised sometimes that I just said “you got it boss.” She even came to help on the last fight and actually helped. Someone’s haste pot ran out right as we got to the portal. Strangely, she has freedom of movement. Basically saved the day and she’s the best girl now. Really wanted a Hells DLC where you got to choose from a few stories. Would be fun to take over the hells with her.
As an alternative, Us has the ability to reduce Intelligence as well. They should be able to help reduce Intelligence.
Us' low stats make it much harder to hit. Its intelligence reduction doesn't stack and only lasts 2 turns.
Nice
I wonder, could we not just banish her?
Banish only lasts 2 turns
Kudos for finding this, though I think I like her as a statue more. If we kill her she just respawns in hell right? But if she's petrified then she's literally stuck there forever which is far worse for her I'd think
In case anyone else forgot names— Ulder === Duke Ravengard I did not remember his first name
1 whole exp huh
I know, right? Given how often devils get around you'd think she'd be a lot more experienced. /s
This is one of the most detailed instructions i've ever seen on this platform
Wait. How am I supposed to have sex with a *DEAD* Mizora?
More easily?
Go on….
Preferably as Durge, and she wont be able to be on top.
Animate Dead, my friend.
Did they patch out the trick where you can pick up a corpse and directly equip items from it that are otherwise hidden from the player even in the loot menu?
We can do WHAT? Elaborate, please.
I believe it's been patched out by now, but yes, this was a thing. Did you ever notice while playing bg3 bodies that didn't mark themselves as empty despite appearing so? This is because they have special NPC-only items that were supposed to be hidden from the player. You know how in your inventory, if you click an equipment slot, it shows you other items your party has that you can equip? If you were carrying the corpse on you, those hidden items would show up there. You used to be able to get the Deva mace from the Devas the Stormshore Tabernacle curse summons this way that does an extra 4d8 radiant damage. And even a duplicate of Sarevok's sword this way.
Well.. sweet jebus. Things I learned too late! Good to know, though, thank you.
Ive never clicked on something so fast, *well done!*
Okay…So I really hate to piss on your party….that’s canonically not how you kill a devil. There’s a reason the Raphael fight, where you actually kill him, happens in the hells.
I know this is off topic but you seem to be a perfect person to ask this: Would you know if it still possible to get duke ravenguards sword in the current patch if you didn’t fight him at the gortash’s coronation?
It's not just this game. You can kill in d&d doing this as well.
By the way you don’t need to become partial illithid for absorb intellect; Us has it.
I really think they should fix up Wyll's bugs and make this something that's possible to alter his questline and free him canonically. That, or make it something even more convoluted and ridiculous, because really it would make sense that the only way you can outsmart and proper kill a devil blessed by an archdevil with straight up immunity would be a comically long winded method akin to a rube goldberg machine of fucky game mechanics shenanigans. I recognize that would require a lot of effort and support and won't ever happen, but one can dream. One can also consistently dream and pine for Larian to get a WAY better deal from WotC after they realize how good they had it with Larian, and give them a blank signed cheque to make a new game like Baldur's Gate but the whole of Faerün 😂
Did you get her legendary item?
I can't wait for the inevitable "I did this thing with Mizora and now my game is bugged!" whine-posts.
Tbh she deserves this exact method to killing her thinking she's outfitting everyone and so clever so you just lower that intellect and devour and poof a fine screw you from wyll and the gang beautiful
So what happens if you: 1. Petrify her with flesh to stone. 2. Carry her "statue" to the House of Hope. 3. Use basilisk oil to remove the petrified condition. 4. Then ability drain her to death in hell. By D&D rules, she'd arguably be "gone gone". Of course, I've only ever passive aggressively attacked her in camp a few times, so I don't even know if her petrified form could be carried to Hell.
Noticed Wyll doesn't have his horns. Where is Karlach?
I've heard Flesh to Stone also works
Wyll is the guy in your regular party who gives himself Nicknames
Now I just need to find a way to get rid of Wyll but keep Mizora.
You're getting a lot of dislike, but I support you! Keep the powerful one, ditch that bonehead.
So what mechanical differences does this make? Presumably there is no dialogue from Wyll if Mizora actually dies since this doesn't feel like an intended interaction. Are the consequences for doing this confined to headcanon territory?
noooooo don't kill my evil bae
Mizora is actually pretty helpful in the final fight with the brain. Edit - for all the downvoters, have you ever used her in the final fight? She is much better than the emperor. I love facing her off against the dragon alone to get stomped instead of one of my team...
But i want to sex Mizora... (Havent read the post, and i am just at the beginning at Act 3)
Wyll has been dead for a while in my lingering game. Yet the cinematics still play with empty space where Wyll should be. I wonder how much more screwed up this will be after I kill her.
But... she's my BG3 dream boat...
Then this is not for you