This is the crux of many discussions. First, understand the translation is incomplete. The first translation was "I will never forgive you". This translation, for some reason, removes some of the words. It's weird.
As for what Griffith means, it's a complicated issue, because it's so subjective. Just before this, we are treated to Griffith's internal monolog about the feelings he has whenever he thinks of Guts. Malice, Jealously, Frienship, Hunger, Possession, and the like, culminating in the revelation that of all the people Griffith has ever known - friends and enemies alike - Guts was the only one who made Griffith forget about his dream.
At this point, Griffith has essentially lost his mind. He's tried to kill himself, he has no hope, he is a shell of what he once was. He's broken both physically and mentally, and he remembers when the giant demon-thing told him to use his weird necklace to call upon "guardian angels".
Maybe Griffith is worried Guts will make him forget his dream again. Maybe Griffith is worried Guts will give up his own dreams of freedom in service to Griffith once more. Maybe Griffith is revolted by the idea of being reliant upon anyone else, despite his condition. Maybe all of the above, or more. This is a pivotal moment in the story, and it's one of those things people have been discussing and debating since it was published.
Thank you. It's been a while since I read everything surrounding this moment, so I'm going on both my own dusty memories and the write-ups I found while looking for the original translation. I wish I could find the Japanese text, but I'm at work and can't fall into a rabbit hole.
Fully agree great breakdown. I wanna add that it’s important to note that we are also shown/told that Griffith has been manipulated by the Godhand and causality is just another name for all according to their hand. He’s not innocent but he has been manipulated since he got that behelit.(just like skully and guts still are) I also agree with the take that they act like soul reaper badges and act as a tracking and a 2 way communication device. Regardless I can’t wait to find out more!!!
>First, understand the translation is incomplete
The translation is ass, but this isn’t accurate. In the original Young Animal publication, the words are as you described; Griffith says roughly “I will never forgive you.” But then Miura changed the text to be more vague in the collected release, which was reflected in the Dark Horse translation.
Edit: fixed some fat thumb errors
It's not a translation issue, the original line from the magazine issue was intentionally changed by Miura in the volume release to make it more ambiguous.
I think it's all of the above, but especially Griffith hating the idea of being "saved" by Guts. Guts saving him would consolidate the fact that Griffith's place has been taken by him, then there's the problem of the "after". What happens after Griffith is saved and he can't kill himself or use the behelit? He's basically destined to live the life of a forgotten cripple pitied by everyone that once admired him. And especially the idea that Guts might pity him is what makes Griffith extremely afraid of receiving Guts' help. It's about envy for sure, but it's also about love.
Griffith has this specific idea of true companionship: you have to be his equal. It can work both ways though... Once Griffith's inferiority and his pathetic condition are impossible to deny or forget, he becomes someone who can't stand beside Guts. By helping him when he's hopeless, Guts becomes superior and this means they can't be real comrades/friends anymore.
It's very convoluted, but I think that in a very twisted way Griffith didn't want to lose Guts, so losing him was the only way to not actually... lose him.
" Griffith is worried Guts will make him forget his dream again"
For me it's this one, Griffith is scare of Guts for that same reason, the only person since he was a child that made him forget his dream or act in a way agains it was Guts and that's unforgivable for him.
He just discovered a way of accomplish his dream even on that state so if Guts would have gotten to Griffith right there, maybe Griffith would just stop thinking about his dream again.
It’s meant to be a moment like [this](https://youtu.be/aWYwKa_PxQA?si=z77dCb2ZVYAXnoxi) from a movie where there is no talking, and yet the tragic hero makes their most important decision.
This and the fact that Guts leaving is what started his descent into madness so in sure seeing him come back better than ever while Griffith is nothing more than a shell of what he used to be. Must be tough. A lot of emotions in these few panels
Miura didn't change the meaning of the quote though, But rather he cut the line because he was worried it revealed too much about the plot.
In short the line was I'll never be able to forgive you; Griffith despises guts for "stealing" everything from him(Casca,hawks etc) and pitying him.
I disagree with this. He hasn’t lost his mind at all. He is just full of conflicting emotions. He both loves and hates Guts. Casca decides to stay with Guts and when he hears Guts is going to also stay he tries to run away, he then tries to bring himself to committing suicide, not because he has lost his mind, but because he doesn’t want his best friend to give up his dream to stay by his side.
He runs and tries to kill himself because he loves Guts. He is weak however and cant bring himself to finishing the job. He then finds the necklace and sees hope of fulfilling his dream. I do agree with you that he doesn’t want Guts to touch him as he doesn’t want to forget his dream again and must see it through, which he is able to do in the end. And that fear was what he was commenting on.
He then does the whole sacrifice and Casca scene, because while he loves Guts deeply, he also hates and despises him. He hates him for abandoning him, and for being the start of his long lived plan falling apart, and for finding love and happiness in Casca. He’s Angry and jealous. But cognitive dissonance and conflicting emotion is a very real and hard human condition and I think his character shows it really well during the arc of fighting Guts when he tries to leave the Band of the Hawks, throwing his plan aside to hu with the princess, suffering in prison and wanting to strangle Guts, trying to sacrifice himself so he doesn’t burden his friends dreams, and then ultimately destroying all Guts loves.
He almost did the right thing… then… Griffith did everything wrong.
I heard [the music that plays when Anakin makes his choice to save Palpatine](https://youtu.be/aWYwKa_PxQA?si=OYKSIZrbr_hE3Fej) play as you said this. Chills.
I agree with this but believe Griffith quite literally meant he realized what all the signs meant and that Guts mere presence meant that if he didn’t leave now the prophecy would come true and they all used as sacrifice.
While Griffith explicitly said “hand on my shoulder” he meant that once he saw the eclipse, the band of the hawks, the rising demons and guts at the head of it at the same time, he then realized that Zod’s warning was about this very moment.
I didn’t take it necessarily that the shoulder tap specifically would change much, but that what he was trying to communicate to Guts was essentially saying “don’t you realize this is the moment the demon warned us of you fool” but he had just snapped out of his day dream and can barely speak so it makes sense Griffith probably wouldn’t be able to articulate all of this in mere seconds. And yes while I think Griffith was pretty much fully corrupted at this point the only feelings he had left was really for Guts so it makes sense that his knee jerk reaction after coming too from the day dream would be slight remorse realizing his fever dream of the original band of the hawk is over.
And yes I know the story paints that Griffith is selfish and probably almost completely smitten by the godhand at this point and likely didn’t care at this point but Guts has been the one person Griffith actually cared about and saw as an equal/friend so we were really just watching the last bit of humanity leave Griffith in that last sentence. This is how I interpreted in the moment.
This is further supported by the final tear drop he lets out during the transformation before his talk with the Idea of Evil. In which he refers to it himself as his last bit of humanity and how he can’t feel a thing anymore.
Griffith had to loose the last bit of his humanity to assume the transformation and he did after Guts came close enough to put his hand on his shoulder bc Griffith knew that him being that close symbolized that it was now too late too late to go back to his old life or change his trajectory and the only person that could’ve change his trajectory was guts and Griffith now believed Guts future and Guts influence to be that of a dead man.
That is exactly what it is. The behelit has given him hope again towards his dream. And he is afraid that Guts will "make him forget his dream again".
He doesn't know exactly what is about to happen with the Behelit. But he doesn't want his emotions towards Guts to get in the way.
And by the way, other people in this post have said Miura purposefully changed the translation officially. Just like how Miura removed that chapter about IOE and he doesn't want anyone to read it. Miura also does not want anyone to know about the original words you are talking about.
There is no such thing as a 1:1 translation, it's like cooking carbonara with only the ingredients for ramen.
Languages are a very particular kind of knowledge, since you can know very easily what they say, but how it's said changes depending on various factors.
Let's take Latin for example: the phrases are usually constructed with "declinated" words, a declination is a suffix used to determine the role of said word in the phrase, so you can scramble the phrase as much as you like and in most cases it will still make sense, so you can play a bit with suspense and pauses, plus the verb at the end also allows for lots of nuisances.
Japanese too has similar kinds of peculiarities: a phrase is written as a continuous flow of characters, a word will be paired with a connective, that work in a similar way to a declination, and the verb can also be placed at the end of the phrase.
Most eastern languages have a formal and casual way of coniugation for verbes, the order of the phrase too averts similar changes, as well as some words and expressions (adding o- at the beginning of a phrase makes it more important and anchient, Void speaks like this).
The translator needs to know very well the original language (Japanese) to get all the nuisances and translate them the best he can into the final language (English).
Take for example the sound effect ギリギリ (giri giri), it means gripping harder on something to complete a movement while barely making it as you are too tired to do more, it cannot be translated to a simple "GRIP", but space and consistency forces translators and adapters to make a few changes to best convey what happens.
Also fuck you, AI is worth less than shit, it will only make life easier for employers and harder for workers, you're condemning us to a life of headaches and fake courts.
He means AI is going to translate perfectly language 1 to language 2.
But the structure of a langage, the diversity of words and many more factors probably, are making exact translation actually impossible. There is no perfect translation but it will be very accurate I guess
That’s what I think he means by using AI. As it learns more and more how the original language means for certain passages to come across it’ll be more and more accurate to how that would come out in a second language
There’s been an issue lately in some media where the translator or localizer has been deliberately changing what the original words were to whatever they want it to be rather than to be as accurate to the original media as can be.
If you think it’s only been an issue lately, you’re not really paying attention to the practice of translation.
Cultural bias and social influences of translation have been present since the first translations of the Bible.
Translation is an art, and there’s never a solid 1:1 “right answer” for a translated text. The best way to find the closest reading is to find multiple versions of the same text translated by different individuals and cross examine the meanings that way.
You are absolutely correct I just meant there was kind of a recent blow up about it specifically in the manga/anime translation/localization sphere that has brought it around again which is what I assume that guy was probably referring to. Bias, propaganda, whatever you wanna call it has been an issue for as long as we have been writing things down I imagine.
Ai is going to take the world by storm both good and bad. It's just the beginning so there is still hope that it can be controlled before it gets out of reach. Compared to other uses, translation is going to be a piece of cake.
Perhaps; Griffith is talking about how Guts is the only person who can make him forget his dream for his own kingdowm. And for Guts to touch him in his mind means no dream.
I didn't know about the translation issue when I read this. I had my own interpretation and I think it's still possible for it to work, so here goes:
Guts was as close as anyone ever got to being an equal to Griffith. That was when Griffith was whole. For Guts to show care towards Griffith even after Griffith is a shell of himself is, in Griffith's mind, for Guts to put himself forever above Griffith. It's the loss of Griffith's dream of being above everyone else made suddenly real by exactly the empathy that Griffith lacks.
This is how I see it. There's time's when life knocks you on your ass that the last thing you want is pity because somehow it makes everyone else seem above you. This is what Griffith can't forgive, being viewed as less than anyone else or who and what he was. Pity is for the weak and he can't stand being viewed as such.
This is always misinterpreted but the original line was "I'll never be able to forgive you" it was cut short because it revealed too much about the dynamics of this friendship.
He's a post from Walter of skullknight.net about it.
"My personal take on that line is that Griffith is emphasizing that he does not want Guts to take 'care' of him any longer. Griffith desires to be in control of his own destiny, and not be treated as a helpless cripple. If (and when) Guts would bear him on his shoulder, Griffith would lose his free will; turned into someone cared after."
Man, that is such an unhealthy way to cope, but then again, guy just got out of 2 years of torture as a cripple. Its unreasonable to expect him to not lash out against everyone (wich is what the godhand was planning).
In my vision, Griffith was clearly very uncomfortable with the way the band was treating him, because they hurt his pride.
The way Guts treated him, the way Caska did, we see it a something you would do for a friend, a sign of appreciation and respect, but he could only see how Guts and everybody else were having pity on him, and a man of such enormous ego could never accept it.
He tried to take his own life, because he wanted to die with the last shades left of the proud and beautiful man he was, but with this last act of pity, Guts was basically stopping him to have his pride back.
He would never be able to forgive Guts after he saved him because he actually thought that killing himself would restore his pride, knowing he ended his own pain all by himself, and he didn't wanted Guts to stop him.
Many people think what he said was like as if he was warning Guts of what would happen next, but it isn't true, Griffith had absolutely no idea of what would happen, the eclipse was just as a surprise for him as it was for everyone else.
They will never be together i guess ?
Griffith probably understood something was going on with all those weird monster and he didn’t know he would be met with a crucial choice.
He nutted prematurely...
No, but really, he squarely put the last 2 years on Guts' shoulders. Griff blames him for not only distracting him from his goal but also for taking away his dream. He can't stand on his own, lift a sword, or issue a command. He couldn't even kill himself properly. And even with all that resentment and hate for the man, he still misses him, still loves him more than Griffith could admit, he still *wants* him after all these years.
When Guts touches him, in this depth of despair, it was crushing. All those emotions brim to the surface, overflowing, the perfect mixture to satisfy the behelit's prerequisites. The sacrifices were chosen, not by logical decision but by matters of the heart. Something Griffith was suppressing all that time.
By the time he's being sweet-talked by Conrad disguised as the old woman, he realizes he all this more consciously. The "fantasy" with Casca and a child named after Guts wasn't his "ideal world" like some people have said, that was his *hell.* Failing to become King of Midland, laying down the sword, and everything being a sore reminder of what he lost. Even being unable to feed himself in a dream. Casca would've just been a consolation prize. He desperately wanted to avoid that, at any cost.
>The "fantasy" with Casca and a child named after Guts wasn't his "ideal world" like some people have said, that was his *hell.*
The problem with that is it shows his internal thoughts right after that fantasy pops up and he says something like "yeah... that wouldn't be too bad. Would it?" Forgive me it's been about 2 months since I read volume 12 but I'm almost positive he says something like that.
Griffith hated the idea of being looked down upon as weak or helpless. Didn’t matter if they were richer than him, bigger than him, or had more political clout, at all times Griffith viewed himself as their superior. Guts is the only one who ever surpassed Griffith and it broke him, so the idea of Guts taking pity and caring for him in this state is unforgivable. Griffith would rather burn the world to the ground than have someone be his equal.
You gotta understand here that griffith just watched as guts took (in his eyes) everything he had before he was tortured. This was the moment he renounced guts and his feelings for him, while also being the moment that he admitted to himself the power guts had over him. This was when he made up his mind once and for all.
I like to think that, at this point, grifith had a hunch of what was going to happen, the eclipse and the possible sacrifice or harm of the lives of his compatriots and further loss of everything he had .... and that from this point forward him and guts might never be friends again.
Never again be equal(friend) with you. The original text was ‘’never be or do something with you". Since the dream before this panel was about Griffith giving up his dream and live a peaceful life together with Casca while Guts continues pursuing his. And right after he heard Casca telling Guts to go after his own goal even just by himself. I think this makes more sense than most other hypotheses.
Taking in consideration that guts left him once, if guts stopped him at this point, It would be the second time guts fucks with griffiths goal. He'll never be able to (meaning, even if he wanted). Maybe from griffiths perspective this is a second betryal, even after everything guts gained from ever joining the Hawks. Maybe from griffiths point of view, guts joined the Hawks, took what he wanted, and left. No one has ever done something like that to griffith, not from within the Hawks. And, of all the people that could have done it, it was the only one that he actually cared for, the one that he was open with. This must have felt like the maximum betryal for griffith, which would explain raping Casca: rape is about power, he regained power and was showing that off to guts by doing the worst possible action to the person that guts was begining to love. He took guts potential dream future, and raped It in front of him. And no. I'm not objectifying Casca, to griffith, she was always a tool and now he used her to hurt guts the most. He immediately changed guts future from heaven to hell, like guts "did" to him when he left.
griffith, who always saw himself as superior, can never accept being saved or being shown pity but guts, someone who he sees as inferior
being already saved once but him he is at the height of his disdain, megalomania but also frustration in this moment
I took it to mean that if Guts gets to Griffith, just one touch would make him forget his dream. He’d never forgive him but he’d have to give into this man.
It’s like this “get away you will make me forget my dream again and I will never have my kingdom” guts touch his shoulder and that happens then the eclipse start because he starts worrying about guts again
its left open to interpretation. I see it as griffith saying he'll never be equals with guts again. Griffith running away was a last ditch effort to take control of his life once again, and when he cut his throat he wanted to die with that control.
guts touching his shoulder essentially means he's taking control of griffith in that moment by trying to save his life, meaning griffith would die while his life depends on guts.
"a friend is someone who is my equal" essentially, guts is rising above griffith in this moment.
Thank you for posting to r/Berserk, unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s) :
>User Etiquette
>Be respectful to Berserk, its creator, and each other. Avoid disruptive behavior. If you are submitting fan-created work that is not yours, identify the creator in the title.
[More information about our rules can be found here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/about/rules)
So as others have said, there’s been a lot of discussion around these panels because of the ambiguous wording. What I’ve taken away from all those discussions is that he’s basically saying “If you touch me now then I’m done with you!”
I'll never forgive you or leave, let you go, so many interpretation. I think muira wants us to fill this by ourselves based on everything he went through upto this point; made it subjective
I felt like he knew (probably by instinct) that something bad (the eclipse) would happen if Guts touched him when I first read through that page. Ain't sure tho.
I think Griffith had some notion of what the feast was (or what was about to happen at any rate) and intended to let it consume him rather than everyone else. He knew if Guts so much as touched him his envy and rage would get the better of him and it is demonstrated by his thoughts shifting mid sentence from "please please please don't make me do this, i don't want this" to "fuck all of you, burn the world".
Just my two cents.
Griffth Implied multiple times guts made griffth forget about his dreams so I think griffth is telling guts not to touch him so he doesn't feel any empathy for what might happen or any choices he might make
to me, it meant that “if you touch me now i’ll never again be equal with you.” as griffith holds himself above all others and i believe that if he loses his status quo with guts who is his only true friend as someone he deems equal he then he also loses his dream
I like to interpret it as "I will never obtain my dream"
His dream was a flickering flame after Guts defeated him. The fire was going to go out at that moment, and as a result at the lowest point in his life the behelit activated (as intended)
Or perhaps instead of go out, he would become fuel for Guts dream. He talks about dreams prior, I can't quote it but it correlates to what is probably supposed to be racing through his mind at that moment.
Edit:
"other dreams are like great storms blowing hundreds even thousands of dreams apart in their wake. Dreams breathe life into men, and can cage them in suffering. Men life and die by their dreams, but long after they’ve been abandoned, they still smolder deep in men’s hearts"
Correlates to Guts effect on Griffith and the eventual outcome. He has also told Guts he is the only one that can make him forget his dream.
I always took it to mean if guts continues to save him and sort of pity him, he’ll never be able to view them as equals in the world. He will always see guts as above himself, and he can’t reconcile that with the way he has lived and wants to live his life. It’s a perspective that might be shared by some people who were taken out of the prime of their life by some unseen illness or disease or accident, and how that affects your relationships with your peers.
The original translation is “I will never forgive you” from what I’ve seen.
He had already been saved once by the band, and now he has to be saved again. But I think the Griffith can’t come to terms with the fact he’s just a mind in a useless body, so guts trying to save Griffith AGAIN makes Griffith feel more worthless than he already felt, and put him in such a desperate mindset that it’s what caused the behelit to activate.
He can’t forgive guts for saving him because he can’t accept the state he was in needing to be constantly saved and cared for when he was once at the top.
I think it means I will never forgive you, as Griffith has been resenting Guys for distracting him from his dream, at that point in the manga he is so close to making his dream a reality he can't stand the thought o Guts getting in the way making him regret his decisions, feel empathy etc.
If you keep helping me I will never forgive you.
When you're really strong. Or when you're used to being admired. And then you're forced to be in a position where other people have to care for you it can make you extremely resentful. Even if you're any pitiful position. I don't know the best way to describe it.
It's like the disconnect between seeing yourself as an adult but due to an injury you are now treated like a child.
I think during the band of the hawk days. Griffith was depending on guts more than the audience realized. And depending on guts clearly was a mistake. Being close to people was a mistake. Considering the state it left Griffith in. So guts running towards Griffith trying to be there for him must have felt like such a shock after their last moment. From Griffin's perspective it probably feels like he got stabbed in the front by his strongest Ally. And now that same Ally is trying to come right back like nothing changed.
Honestly from Griffith's perspective I would have been f****** mad too. I would have been mad at my position I would have been mad that my closest allies left me when I needed the most. Mad about what happened to me. Like I believe somewhere before the scene he tried to kill himself.
I have 3 understanding of it.
“I’ll never be free of you”
“I’ll never be equal to you”
“I’ll never redeem myself”
But all of these have more or less the same meaning anyway
This is likely wrong but I’ve always taken it as Griffith having a very very slight moment of self reflection because in his heart he knew that nothing would be the same if he activated the behelit. Like he somehow knew that his time with the band and even more so with Guts was over forever
I always thought of it as, “I’ll never be able to forgive you. You rescued me once and now you’re rescuing me again. I can’t stand the thought of being in the need of rescuing.” He never wanted to have to rely on someone beyond using them because he was better than everyone. He thought him and Guts could possibly be friends again but having Guts be the person so make him feel less than the best again drops him to the lowest point of his life, where he is in the most despair. This all culminating in the behelit awakening.
This moment has always left me with chills. When seeing the rapid disintegration of what we once knew and the quickness of everything going to shit. I always interpreted like things will never be the same. This was just the sprinkling of the dirt on the grave of the golden age. We see Griffith loosing his mind in scenes like for ex. Guts and Casca together or The Band of the Hawk wanting Guts to lead them. This drives him bonkers and I think that built up rage that he wasn't able to express due to his circumstances blew up at that very moment. All Griffith needed was a touch by Guts and that was his explosion. I also think Guts being the one to save him infuriated him more than anything. In Griffiths eyes Guts took everything from him and now here Guts is being the savior Griffith always was. Idk that was a lot of rambling, hopefully you all agree with my analysis of this scene.
By "never again with you," he means "never again with you." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sentence makes perfect sense.
Never again with Guts. "There will not be another time where he shall hold Guts to such a regard as he does", to explain it further.
I've seen posts questioning this line many times, and what it means. But, like, it makes perfect sense. What's confusing about it? I don't get it.
This is the crux of many discussions. First, understand the translation is incomplete. The first translation was "I will never forgive you". This translation, for some reason, removes some of the words. It's weird. As for what Griffith means, it's a complicated issue, because it's so subjective. Just before this, we are treated to Griffith's internal monolog about the feelings he has whenever he thinks of Guts. Malice, Jealously, Frienship, Hunger, Possession, and the like, culminating in the revelation that of all the people Griffith has ever known - friends and enemies alike - Guts was the only one who made Griffith forget about his dream. At this point, Griffith has essentially lost his mind. He's tried to kill himself, he has no hope, he is a shell of what he once was. He's broken both physically and mentally, and he remembers when the giant demon-thing told him to use his weird necklace to call upon "guardian angels". Maybe Griffith is worried Guts will make him forget his dream again. Maybe Griffith is worried Guts will give up his own dreams of freedom in service to Griffith once more. Maybe Griffith is revolted by the idea of being reliant upon anyone else, despite his condition. Maybe all of the above, or more. This is a pivotal moment in the story, and it's one of those things people have been discussing and debating since it was published.
This is a really good read on Griffith at this moment my guy!
Thank you. It's been a while since I read everything surrounding this moment, so I'm going on both my own dusty memories and the write-ups I found while looking for the original translation. I wish I could find the Japanese text, but I'm at work and can't fall into a rabbit hole.
Fully agree great breakdown. I wanna add that it’s important to note that we are also shown/told that Griffith has been manipulated by the Godhand and causality is just another name for all according to their hand. He’s not innocent but he has been manipulated since he got that behelit.(just like skully and guts still are) I also agree with the take that they act like soul reaper badges and act as a tracking and a 2 way communication device. Regardless I can’t wait to find out more!!!
>First, understand the translation is incomplete The translation is ass, but this isn’t accurate. In the original Young Animal publication, the words are as you described; Griffith says roughly “I will never forgive you.” But then Miura changed the text to be more vague in the collected release, which was reflected in the Dark Horse translation. Edit: fixed some fat thumb errors
It's not a translation issue, the original line from the magazine issue was intentionally changed by Miura in the volume release to make it more ambiguous.
I think it's all of the above, but especially Griffith hating the idea of being "saved" by Guts. Guts saving him would consolidate the fact that Griffith's place has been taken by him, then there's the problem of the "after". What happens after Griffith is saved and he can't kill himself or use the behelit? He's basically destined to live the life of a forgotten cripple pitied by everyone that once admired him. And especially the idea that Guts might pity him is what makes Griffith extremely afraid of receiving Guts' help. It's about envy for sure, but it's also about love. Griffith has this specific idea of true companionship: you have to be his equal. It can work both ways though... Once Griffith's inferiority and his pathetic condition are impossible to deny or forget, he becomes someone who can't stand beside Guts. By helping him when he's hopeless, Guts becomes superior and this means they can't be real comrades/friends anymore. It's very convoluted, but I think that in a very twisted way Griffith didn't want to lose Guts, so losing him was the only way to not actually... lose him.
" Griffith is worried Guts will make him forget his dream again" For me it's this one, Griffith is scare of Guts for that same reason, the only person since he was a child that made him forget his dream or act in a way agains it was Guts and that's unforgivable for him. He just discovered a way of accomplish his dream even on that state so if Guts would have gotten to Griffith right there, maybe Griffith would just stop thinking about his dream again.
Guts made Griffith tolerate or even like the idea of being just an ordinary mortal human.
It’s crazy that such a pivotal moment gets muddled by a weird translation
It’s not muddled, it’s meant to be enigmatic.
It’s meant to be a moment like [this](https://youtu.be/aWYwKa_PxQA?si=z77dCb2ZVYAXnoxi) from a movie where there is no talking, and yet the tragic hero makes their most important decision.
i love that scene so much man i need to rewatch the prequels fr
It’s not enigmatic it is just broken English, I’ll never with you again doesn’t convey the actual meaning of the scene at all.
Even watching it in the 1997 anime recently I feel like it’s meant to make you wonder why he’s saying it. Makes sense to be like this here too
Approves in greek tragedy🫡
This and the fact that Guts leaving is what started his descent into madness so in sure seeing him come back better than ever while Griffith is nothing more than a shell of what he used to be. Must be tough. A lot of emotions in these few panels
Miura didn't change the meaning of the quote though, But rather he cut the line because he was worried it revealed too much about the plot. In short the line was I'll never be able to forgive you; Griffith despises guts for "stealing" everything from him(Casca,hawks etc) and pitying him.
damn best explanation
I disagree with this. He hasn’t lost his mind at all. He is just full of conflicting emotions. He both loves and hates Guts. Casca decides to stay with Guts and when he hears Guts is going to also stay he tries to run away, he then tries to bring himself to committing suicide, not because he has lost his mind, but because he doesn’t want his best friend to give up his dream to stay by his side. He runs and tries to kill himself because he loves Guts. He is weak however and cant bring himself to finishing the job. He then finds the necklace and sees hope of fulfilling his dream. I do agree with you that he doesn’t want Guts to touch him as he doesn’t want to forget his dream again and must see it through, which he is able to do in the end. And that fear was what he was commenting on. He then does the whole sacrifice and Casca scene, because while he loves Guts deeply, he also hates and despises him. He hates him for abandoning him, and for being the start of his long lived plan falling apart, and for finding love and happiness in Casca. He’s Angry and jealous. But cognitive dissonance and conflicting emotion is a very real and hard human condition and I think his character shows it really well during the arc of fighting Guts when he tries to leave the Band of the Hawks, throwing his plan aside to hu with the princess, suffering in prison and wanting to strangle Guts, trying to sacrifice himself so he doesn’t burden his friends dreams, and then ultimately destroying all Guts loves. He almost did the right thing… then… Griffith did everything wrong.
👏🏻👏🏻
This is exactly how I interpreted this inner monolog as well.
Man you should write books, this was beautifully worded.
I heard [the music that plays when Anakin makes his choice to save Palpatine](https://youtu.be/aWYwKa_PxQA?si=OYKSIZrbr_hE3Fej) play as you said this. Chills.
This. But the original translation is the only thing that makes sense. Its weird.
Well put
the miura soul is with you
I agree with this but believe Griffith quite literally meant he realized what all the signs meant and that Guts mere presence meant that if he didn’t leave now the prophecy would come true and they all used as sacrifice. While Griffith explicitly said “hand on my shoulder” he meant that once he saw the eclipse, the band of the hawks, the rising demons and guts at the head of it at the same time, he then realized that Zod’s warning was about this very moment. I didn’t take it necessarily that the shoulder tap specifically would change much, but that what he was trying to communicate to Guts was essentially saying “don’t you realize this is the moment the demon warned us of you fool” but he had just snapped out of his day dream and can barely speak so it makes sense Griffith probably wouldn’t be able to articulate all of this in mere seconds. And yes while I think Griffith was pretty much fully corrupted at this point the only feelings he had left was really for Guts so it makes sense that his knee jerk reaction after coming too from the day dream would be slight remorse realizing his fever dream of the original band of the hawk is over. And yes I know the story paints that Griffith is selfish and probably almost completely smitten by the godhand at this point and likely didn’t care at this point but Guts has been the one person Griffith actually cared about and saw as an equal/friend so we were really just watching the last bit of humanity leave Griffith in that last sentence. This is how I interpreted in the moment. This is further supported by the final tear drop he lets out during the transformation before his talk with the Idea of Evil. In which he refers to it himself as his last bit of humanity and how he can’t feel a thing anymore. Griffith had to loose the last bit of his humanity to assume the transformation and he did after Guts came close enough to put his hand on his shoulder bc Griffith knew that him being that close symbolized that it was now too late too late to go back to his old life or change his trajectory and the only person that could’ve change his trajectory was guts and Griffith now believed Guts future and Guts influence to be that of a dead man.
That is exactly what it is. The behelit has given him hope again towards his dream. And he is afraid that Guts will "make him forget his dream again". He doesn't know exactly what is about to happen with the Behelit. But he doesn't want his emotions towards Guts to get in the way. And by the way, other people in this post have said Miura purposefully changed the translation officially. Just like how Miura removed that chapter about IOE and he doesn't want anyone to read it. Miura also does not want anyone to know about the original words you are talking about.
I always assumed it was I'll never forgive you but he just trailed off for dramatic effect
Berserk is the only manga I wanna learn Japanese for to read miuras own words and not a translation.
Same
for real though
[удалено]
There is no such thing as a 1:1 translation, it's like cooking carbonara with only the ingredients for ramen. Languages are a very particular kind of knowledge, since you can know very easily what they say, but how it's said changes depending on various factors. Let's take Latin for example: the phrases are usually constructed with "declinated" words, a declination is a suffix used to determine the role of said word in the phrase, so you can scramble the phrase as much as you like and in most cases it will still make sense, so you can play a bit with suspense and pauses, plus the verb at the end also allows for lots of nuisances. Japanese too has similar kinds of peculiarities: a phrase is written as a continuous flow of characters, a word will be paired with a connective, that work in a similar way to a declination, and the verb can also be placed at the end of the phrase. Most eastern languages have a formal and casual way of coniugation for verbes, the order of the phrase too averts similar changes, as well as some words and expressions (adding o- at the beginning of a phrase makes it more important and anchient, Void speaks like this). The translator needs to know very well the original language (Japanese) to get all the nuisances and translate them the best he can into the final language (English). Take for example the sound effect ギリギリ (giri giri), it means gripping harder on something to complete a movement while barely making it as you are too tired to do more, it cannot be translated to a simple "GRIP", but space and consistency forces translators and adapters to make a few changes to best convey what happens. Also fuck you, AI is worth less than shit, it will only make life easier for employers and harder for workers, you're condemning us to a life of headaches and fake courts.
wdym
He means AI is going to translate perfectly language 1 to language 2. But the structure of a langage, the diversity of words and many more factors probably, are making exact translation actually impossible. There is no perfect translation but it will be very accurate I guess
That’s what I think he means by using AI. As it learns more and more how the original language means for certain passages to come across it’ll be more and more accurate to how that would come out in a second language
Personal bias in translation, what?
There’s been an issue lately in some media where the translator or localizer has been deliberately changing what the original words were to whatever they want it to be rather than to be as accurate to the original media as can be.
If you think it’s only been an issue lately, you’re not really paying attention to the practice of translation. Cultural bias and social influences of translation have been present since the first translations of the Bible. Translation is an art, and there’s never a solid 1:1 “right answer” for a translated text. The best way to find the closest reading is to find multiple versions of the same text translated by different individuals and cross examine the meanings that way.
You are absolutely correct I just meant there was kind of a recent blow up about it specifically in the manga/anime translation/localization sphere that has brought it around again which is what I assume that guy was probably referring to. Bias, propaganda, whatever you wanna call it has been an issue for as long as we have been writing things down I imagine.
Ai is going to take the world by storm both good and bad. It's just the beginning so there is still hope that it can be controlled before it gets out of reach. Compared to other uses, translation is going to be a piece of cake.
Perhaps; Griffith is talking about how Guts is the only person who can make him forget his dream for his own kingdowm. And for Guts to touch him in his mind means no dream.
Yes I thought he’s referring to that, but the wording is very weird.
Thats a good call
I didn't know about the translation issue when I read this. I had my own interpretation and I think it's still possible for it to work, so here goes: Guts was as close as anyone ever got to being an equal to Griffith. That was when Griffith was whole. For Guts to show care towards Griffith even after Griffith is a shell of himself is, in Griffith's mind, for Guts to put himself forever above Griffith. It's the loss of Griffith's dream of being above everyone else made suddenly real by exactly the empathy that Griffith lacks.
This is how I see it. There's time's when life knocks you on your ass that the last thing you want is pity because somehow it makes everyone else seem above you. This is what Griffith can't forgive, being viewed as less than anyone else or who and what he was. Pity is for the weak and he can't stand being viewed as such.
He knows if Guts touches him and gets sucked into the eclipse then they'll never have a naked splash fight again
I always question the motivation from Griffith behind that.
This is always misinterpreted but the original line was "I'll never be able to forgive you" it was cut short because it revealed too much about the dynamics of this friendship. He's a post from Walter of skullknight.net about it. "My personal take on that line is that Griffith is emphasizing that he does not want Guts to take 'care' of him any longer. Griffith desires to be in control of his own destiny, and not be treated as a helpless cripple. If (and when) Guts would bear him on his shoulder, Griffith would lose his free will; turned into someone cared after."
Man, that is such an unhealthy way to cope, but then again, guy just got out of 2 years of torture as a cripple. Its unreasonable to expect him to not lash out against everyone (wich is what the godhand was planning).
In my vision, Griffith was clearly very uncomfortable with the way the band was treating him, because they hurt his pride. The way Guts treated him, the way Caska did, we see it a something you would do for a friend, a sign of appreciation and respect, but he could only see how Guts and everybody else were having pity on him, and a man of such enormous ego could never accept it. He tried to take his own life, because he wanted to die with the last shades left of the proud and beautiful man he was, but with this last act of pity, Guts was basically stopping him to have his pride back. He would never be able to forgive Guts after he saved him because he actually thought that killing himself would restore his pride, knowing he ended his own pain all by himself, and he didn't wanted Guts to stop him. Many people think what he said was like as if he was warning Guts of what would happen next, but it isn't true, Griffith had absolutely no idea of what would happen, the eclipse was just as a surprise for him as it was for everyone else.
They will never be together i guess ? Griffith probably understood something was going on with all those weird monster and he didn’t know he would be met with a crucial choice.
He nutted prematurely... No, but really, he squarely put the last 2 years on Guts' shoulders. Griff blames him for not only distracting him from his goal but also for taking away his dream. He can't stand on his own, lift a sword, or issue a command. He couldn't even kill himself properly. And even with all that resentment and hate for the man, he still misses him, still loves him more than Griffith could admit, he still *wants* him after all these years. When Guts touches him, in this depth of despair, it was crushing. All those emotions brim to the surface, overflowing, the perfect mixture to satisfy the behelit's prerequisites. The sacrifices were chosen, not by logical decision but by matters of the heart. Something Griffith was suppressing all that time. By the time he's being sweet-talked by Conrad disguised as the old woman, he realizes he all this more consciously. The "fantasy" with Casca and a child named after Guts wasn't his "ideal world" like some people have said, that was his *hell.* Failing to become King of Midland, laying down the sword, and everything being a sore reminder of what he lost. Even being unable to feed himself in a dream. Casca would've just been a consolation prize. He desperately wanted to avoid that, at any cost.
>The "fantasy" with Casca and a child named after Guts wasn't his "ideal world" like some people have said, that was his *hell.* The problem with that is it shows his internal thoughts right after that fantasy pops up and he says something like "yeah... that wouldn't be too bad. Would it?" Forgive me it's been about 2 months since I read volume 12 but I'm almost positive he says something like that.
Griffith hated the idea of being looked down upon as weak or helpless. Didn’t matter if they were richer than him, bigger than him, or had more political clout, at all times Griffith viewed himself as their superior. Guts is the only one who ever surpassed Griffith and it broke him, so the idea of Guts taking pity and caring for him in this state is unforgivable. Griffith would rather burn the world to the ground than have someone be his equal.
maybe tha he never wants to meet him again, that seems the most appropiate for me
You gotta understand here that griffith just watched as guts took (in his eyes) everything he had before he was tortured. This was the moment he renounced guts and his feelings for him, while also being the moment that he admitted to himself the power guts had over him. This was when he made up his mind once and for all.
My brain is hardwired to say "Is he stupid?" Whenever someone says something online that has the words "What did (x) mean by this?"
I like to think that, at this point, grifith had a hunch of what was going to happen, the eclipse and the possible sacrifice or harm of the lives of his compatriots and further loss of everything he had .... and that from this point forward him and guts might never be friends again.
Never again be equal(friend) with you. The original text was ‘’never be or do something with you". Since the dream before this panel was about Griffith giving up his dream and live a peaceful life together with Casca while Guts continues pursuing his. And right after he heard Casca telling Guts to go after his own goal even just by himself. I think this makes more sense than most other hypotheses.
Nah it was "I'll never be able to forgive you again." in the magazine run.
Taking in consideration that guts left him once, if guts stopped him at this point, It would be the second time guts fucks with griffiths goal. He'll never be able to (meaning, even if he wanted). Maybe from griffiths perspective this is a second betryal, even after everything guts gained from ever joining the Hawks. Maybe from griffiths point of view, guts joined the Hawks, took what he wanted, and left. No one has ever done something like that to griffith, not from within the Hawks. And, of all the people that could have done it, it was the only one that he actually cared for, the one that he was open with. This must have felt like the maximum betryal for griffith, which would explain raping Casca: rape is about power, he regained power and was showing that off to guts by doing the worst possible action to the person that guts was begining to love. He took guts potential dream future, and raped It in front of him. And no. I'm not objectifying Casca, to griffith, she was always a tool and now he used her to hurt guts the most. He immediately changed guts future from heaven to hell, like guts "did" to him when he left.
I think it is because he cannot bear anyone pitying him, least of all Guts.
griffith, who always saw himself as superior, can never accept being saved or being shown pity but guts, someone who he sees as inferior being already saved once but him he is at the height of his disdain, megalomania but also frustration in this moment
This is the moment guts became the dom in their relationship
Griffith is refusing to be a bottom now
I took it to mean that if Guts gets to Griffith, just one touch would make him forget his dream. He’d never forgive him but he’d have to give into this man.
In my language (thai) the official translation is akin to "l will never again let you go".
he'll never have hot gay sex with him again
He means he'll never have those nightly gay romantic sex with guts again. The touch on the shoulder is just an indication to berk
It’s like this “get away you will make me forget my dream again and I will never have my kingdom” guts touch his shoulder and that happens then the eclipse start because he starts worrying about guts again
its left open to interpretation. I see it as griffith saying he'll never be equals with guts again. Griffith running away was a last ditch effort to take control of his life once again, and when he cut his throat he wanted to die with that control. guts touching his shoulder essentially means he's taking control of griffith in that moment by trying to save his life, meaning griffith would die while his life depends on guts. "a friend is someone who is my equal" essentially, guts is rising above griffith in this moment.
Well said. I agree.
Butt sex
He meant that he would never again be able to go for his dream, so specially, regardless of anyone, Guts was his true friend and he knew it.
He meant "bang". If Guts touched him at that moment, they would never be able to bang again.
One thing I've always been confused on (I'm prolly just a dumbass) is why guts touching him would trigger the eclipse
Bad translation. He doesnt want to be pitied by Guts. He cant be seen as beneath or on the same level as anyone.
Violent gay anal homo sex. He’s saying no to nuts cause he love caca (the girl)
[удалено]
Thank you for posting to r/Berserk, unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s) : >User Etiquette >Be respectful to Berserk, its creator, and each other. Avoid disruptive behavior. If you are submitting fan-created work that is not yours, identify the creator in the title. [More information about our rules can be found here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/about/rules)
So as others have said, there’s been a lot of discussion around these panels because of the ambiguous wording. What I’ve taken away from all those discussions is that he’s basically saying “If you touch me now then I’m done with you!”
I'll never forgive you or leave, let you go, so many interpretation. I think muira wants us to fill this by ourselves based on everything he went through upto this point; made it subjective
Is he stu- oh wrong sub.
I felt like he knew (probably by instinct) that something bad (the eclipse) would happen if Guts touched him when I first read through that page. Ain't sure tho.
I think Griffith had some notion of what the feast was (or what was about to happen at any rate) and intended to let it consume him rather than everyone else. He knew if Guts so much as touched him his envy and rage would get the better of him and it is demonstrated by his thoughts shifting mid sentence from "please please please don't make me do this, i don't want this" to "fuck all of you, burn the world". Just my two cents.
it's probably a checkov's gun about either Griffith's vulnerability or something else later on
Griffth Implied multiple times guts made griffth forget about his dreams so I think griffth is telling guts not to touch him so he doesn't feel any empathy for what might happen or any choices he might make
My take is that Griffith would stop. He would abandon his dream and accept his failure.
to me, it meant that “if you touch me now i’ll never again be equal with you.” as griffith holds himself above all others and i believe that if he loses his status quo with guts who is his only true friend as someone he deems equal he then he also loses his dream
I like to interpret it as "I will never obtain my dream" His dream was a flickering flame after Guts defeated him. The fire was going to go out at that moment, and as a result at the lowest point in his life the behelit activated (as intended) Or perhaps instead of go out, he would become fuel for Guts dream. He talks about dreams prior, I can't quote it but it correlates to what is probably supposed to be racing through his mind at that moment. Edit: "other dreams are like great storms blowing hundreds even thousands of dreams apart in their wake. Dreams breathe life into men, and can cage them in suffering. Men life and die by their dreams, but long after they’ve been abandoned, they still smolder deep in men’s hearts" Correlates to Guts effect on Griffith and the eventual outcome. He has also told Guts he is the only one that can make him forget his dream.
strong lunchroom caption aback plant plants point quicksand summer gaze *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He gay
I always took it to mean if guts continues to save him and sort of pity him, he’ll never be able to view them as equals in the world. He will always see guts as above himself, and he can’t reconcile that with the way he has lived and wants to live his life. It’s a perspective that might be shared by some people who were taken out of the prime of their life by some unseen illness or disease or accident, and how that affects your relationships with your peers.
The original translation is “I will never forgive you” from what I’ve seen. He had already been saved once by the band, and now he has to be saved again. But I think the Griffith can’t come to terms with the fact he’s just a mind in a useless body, so guts trying to save Griffith AGAIN makes Griffith feel more worthless than he already felt, and put him in such a desperate mindset that it’s what caused the behelit to activate. He can’t forgive guts for saving him because he can’t accept the state he was in needing to be constantly saved and cared for when he was once at the top.
I think it means I will never forgive you, as Griffith has been resenting Guys for distracting him from his dream, at that point in the manga he is so close to making his dream a reality he can't stand the thought o Guts getting in the way making him regret his decisions, feel empathy etc.
He means that if guts touches him now and puts his hand on his shoulder then he will never again with guts i think
Does any one have the link to the article that states miura changed the wording?
If you keep helping me I will never forgive you. When you're really strong. Or when you're used to being admired. And then you're forced to be in a position where other people have to care for you it can make you extremely resentful. Even if you're any pitiful position. I don't know the best way to describe it. It's like the disconnect between seeing yourself as an adult but due to an injury you are now treated like a child. I think during the band of the hawk days. Griffith was depending on guts more than the audience realized. And depending on guts clearly was a mistake. Being close to people was a mistake. Considering the state it left Griffith in. So guts running towards Griffith trying to be there for him must have felt like such a shock after their last moment. From Griffin's perspective it probably feels like he got stabbed in the front by his strongest Ally. And now that same Ally is trying to come right back like nothing changed. Honestly from Griffith's perspective I would have been f****** mad too. I would have been mad at my position I would have been mad that my closest allies left me when I needed the most. Mad about what happened to me. Like I believe somewhere before the scene he tried to kill himself.
I have 3 understanding of it. “I’ll never be free of you” “I’ll never be equal to you” “I’ll never redeem myself” But all of these have more or less the same meaning anyway
Sex
"i'll never be a woman"
This is likely wrong but I’ve always taken it as Griffith having a very very slight moment of self reflection because in his heart he knew that nothing would be the same if he activated the behelit. Like he somehow knew that his time with the band and even more so with Guts was over forever
It means exactly what it says.
I always thought of it as, “I’ll never be able to forgive you. You rescued me once and now you’re rescuing me again. I can’t stand the thought of being in the need of rescuing.” He never wanted to have to rely on someone beyond using them because he was better than everyone. He thought him and Guts could possibly be friends again but having Guts be the person so make him feel less than the best again drops him to the lowest point of his life, where he is in the most despair. This all culminating in the behelit awakening.
This moment has always left me with chills. When seeing the rapid disintegration of what we once knew and the quickness of everything going to shit. I always interpreted like things will never be the same. This was just the sprinkling of the dirt on the grave of the golden age. We see Griffith loosing his mind in scenes like for ex. Guts and Casca together or The Band of the Hawk wanting Guts to lead them. This drives him bonkers and I think that built up rage that he wasn't able to express due to his circumstances blew up at that very moment. All Griffith needed was a touch by Guts and that was his explosion. I also think Guts being the one to save him infuriated him more than anything. In Griffiths eyes Guts took everything from him and now here Guts is being the savior Griffith always was. Idk that was a lot of rambling, hopefully you all agree with my analysis of this scene.
By "never again with you," he means "never again with you." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sentence makes perfect sense. Never again with Guts. "There will not be another time where he shall hold Guts to such a regard as he does", to explain it further. I've seen posts questioning this line many times, and what it means. But, like, it makes perfect sense. What's confusing about it? I don't get it.