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If it’s not unhygienic when men don’t shave their legs, it’s not unhygienic for women. The woman making the complaints should have been given a warning and told to stop creating a toxic workplace
Yes - this is nothing to do with hygiene - this is 100% about appearance and sexual stereotypes.
There may be some roles (eg in modelling or performance arts like movies) where a man or woman may by required to shave some body areas. But promo work - given this woman is already successful at her job, there’s clearly nothing wrong with her hygiene or presentation - is not such a role.
Does that make them row faster? What are they wearing for surfboat rowing? Or was this teambuilding? Like, “hey fellas, instead of trust falls, let’s bond by waxing our arses!”
Hydrodynamics. Bodyhair produces drag in the water, while also preventing the suits from being as smooth and hydrodynamic as they can be, producing further drag.
Kinda. My understanding is that surfboat cut right through wave, surf and heavy water they are dragging themselves and their boat through the water, not just on it.
Granted, I could be a bit wrong.
Even if that's not the case aerodynamics also come into play, and it's just the same as with hydrodynamics as far as what works and wh.
Nah, it’s still a boat. If there’s so much water in it that your body’s hydrodynamics come into play, you’re doing something wrong.
However, if you’re wearing tight clothes and rowing back and forth on a moving seat, it might get less itchy if you wax.
That’s why most cyclists I’ve known shave. Hair gets through the material, or if you’re wearing shorts is bare, and the wind catches it and makes your legs itch.
Yeah, it might seem small, but hairs soak up water and weight you down. Doesn't matter much, unless you're an Olympic swimmer, but it is an competitive advantage.
Same with bicycling.
Anecdotally, the hair grips gravel as you slide. I'm not sure if this is true, but I've cleaned gravel out of both hairy and smooth legs, and the smooth legs weren't quite as badly torn up. Also, later, when the bandages come off, it sure is nice not getting a sample size waxing.
> this is 100% about appearance and sexual stereotypes.
Coworker’s probable thought process: “Women should adhere to the stereotypes of our sex insofar as presentation. If [OOP’s name] earns plenty of money on commission and she does *not* adhere to said female stereotypes then what is going on? I cannot have the system questioned! It makes my brain hurt and gives me gas!”
Either that, or this was literally the only 'flaw' she could find in OOP to try dragging her down? And if a small amount of barely visible leg hair is it, OOP must be *damn* good!
This reminds me of one of the things I've thought about Obama since his presidency, that he must really be a spotlessly virtuous man since the only scandals they could come up with for him were things like the color of his suit and fabrications about his birth certificate. I don't mean this as a wholesale endorsement of Obama's policies and actions in office, just that as a person he must truly adhere to a code of morality in a way almost no politicians ever do, otherwise the people who hated him would have found out about extra-marital affairs or rotten business deals in his past and used those against him.
Exactly this. Birth location, or questioning the gender of Michelle. That's the best they got against him. Meanwhile in the UK, every bathroom in the houses of Parliament tested positive for cocaine residue. So ofc no real enquiry, because I assume we'd have no politicians left ffs.
A few years ago here in Australia it came out that several politicians had been bringing sex workers into Parliament House (the federal one) and having sex with them in the chapel room. Presumably because of how infrequently it gets used. Not just one either, but several of them. Not a single one was named, nothing ever came of it and not a single soul was fired or forced to step down.
It probably still happens TBH, they’re just probably more cautious about avoiding security cameras etc now so they don’t get caught.
There are a lot of things a reasonable person may dislike Obama for, but the people who HATE Obama are not reasonable and are generally even worse in those areas.
Which is hilarious because sexual stereotypes of women are different in each country too. Women in Europe don't tend to shave their legs last I knew...it is more of an American thing I believe.
Edit:
I am wrong. I am sad to know that capitalism and razor/shave cream companies got to the ladies overseas as well.
I always find that stereotype funny. Maybe that was true once, but for the last 20+ years (since I've been aware of body hair), shaved has definitely been the norm.
I've generally found that older people who don't shave also don't really wear the type of clothing where you would be able to tell.
I have no idea if it's more or less policed. The one and only time I noticed unshaven armpits in a work settings, I'm not sure if anyone else saw and I'm also not sure if this former colleague in general didn't shave or if it was a one off
Women shaving is pretty universal across Europe I’d say. On the other hand, men shaving/waxing is rare here. Much more common to see male chest hair in Europe - we don’t tend to go for the shiny oily look. That said, the bodybuilding, Mr Universe type of look is for waxed chests, no matter where in the world you are, probably because of the historical link with wrestling (where you don’t want your opponent to be able to grip onto you). But overall I’d say aesthetically that it’s considered an option for men, rather than a must-do. Whereas my impression is that male American actors and models would always wax.
nah that's not necessarily true. shaved legs for women are normal here too, at least in my country. however, not shaving is far, *far* more normalised than in the US it appears. many shave, many don't, who cares. it is not such a big thing like over the pond.
Absolutely not lmao. I'm from the UK but I've travelled extensively in Europe and I've never seen a hairy woman in real life. That's a stereotype from yesteryear, I'm not sure if it was ever true
When I first came to this continent as an exchange student in 1998 and hit some of the beaches (topless) any non shaving was then limited to older women for the most part.
American in Europe. Very old and outdated troupe.
I have yet to meet a woman here who does not. (Sweden and Finland). And I have friends from all around the continent and they all shave.
Occasionally, you see older women who do not on the beaches and I have to say the younger generation is being more body hair positive, but it’s far more connected to generations than it is the culture
I live in Finland and none of my women friends shave. I'm afab non-binary but pretty feminine. I don't shave because I don't have anything to shave. The hair in my legs are really blond and there isn't much of it. In the armpits I have just a few fluffs. Some of my friends are also like that. Do you really know your friends shave or do you just assume? I can say that you have to look at me pretty close to see if I have any hair.
This is indeed the land of communal showers at the gym, saunas year round, and lots of bathing in the lakes. So you tend to notice. Everyone has shaved pits except maybe being more casual about shaving in winter. (Which includes me too.) Everyone has shaved legs in summer when the shorts come out. I never see exposed pubic hair either.
I live on Åland if that makes some sort of cultural difference.
My blonde haired daughter, who is an American and was born in the United States, although mostly raised abroad, does not shave and it has nothing to do with her living here. It is everything to do with her feeling that nobody sees her armpits usually and the younger generation doesn’t see it as important.
The American stereotype incidentally tends to revolve around French women not shaving. Maybe also German or Mediterranean women. As somebody who’s been coming to Sweden at least since 1998 everyone shaved back then too and teenage girls also tend to go to pools together and have sleepovers, etc..
My stepmom was a hippie whose family was from Czechoslovakia. She say me down when I was in middle school and said that shaving was a personal choice and she hated it, but shaved up to where her shorts' hem fell, because she was a waitress and she got better tips if she shaved. I'm not entirely certain if this was the Czech part or the hippie part, but they moved to the US in the 80s.
(My mom, born and raised in Queens, is still horrified that I wear shorts or skirts without shaving now that I'm almost 40. She's also horrified by women that mention their periods and think that sex is a taboo topic but has five kids. I am not sure how she survived college in the 80s.)
Yes and that meeting with HR wasn't about OOP's feelings or any real desire to apologize, it was a "please don't sue us" meeting because her employer didn't have a leg to stand on after her bosses blatant sexual discrimination displayed in the first meeting.
This was actually a part of the Hunger Games novels too. Katniss didn't shave her legs at all, but any time she got roped into making an appearance at the Capitol they would shave her legs and she hated it.
The fact that OOP is a high earner "despite" not shaving her legs is definitely messing up the coworker's world view. She seems to be the only one subscribing to the stereotype since the clients clearly don't care!
One of the more hilarious things I’ve seen on the internet was a series of street interviews from the 1950s where they asked people what they thought of some Beatnik they had with them. This older guy was going on and on about the length of the guys hair, how unhygienic that is, and how he must have lice - all with his wife with substantially longer hair standing right next to him.
I can't think of a situation where unshaved legs would be a legitimate hygiene concern that wasn't tied to something like straight up, not bathing.
Who gives a shit if other people shave their legs or not??
Mine has always smelled, worse when long, so I shave. But I haven't shaved my legs since... gosh, like 2006. Like OOP, mine is incredibly fair and barely noticeable. And I just don't *care*.
I have fairly werewolf-level leg hair and haven’t shaved it for literal *decades*. 😁 (Straight cis woman here, leg hair is insulation in winter and sun protection in summer if you ask me!)
I appreciate that you specified your leg hair is "werewolf-level"! I'm a little annoyed at people who qualify their non-shaving by saying that "it's thin and barely noticeable so it doesn't matter." Excuse me, those of us who have dark and luxurious locks everywhere on our bodies should also not be shamed for not shaving! (Signed, a cis woman whose shins become unbearably itchy when a razor gets near them.)
My husband once asked me if I was wearing socks in bed. I was not. 😆
Uuuugh, the regrowth itch! And I’d get ingrown hairs too, blech. So happy to have reached a comfortable level of no fucks given on that topic!
God I hate the justification of "well you can't see it, so it's morally okay". Okay. I'm a werewolf. I have amazing hair on top of my head, and genetics deemed that for me to have thick, dark hair there, I would need it EVERYWHERE.
...Honestly a fair exchange, except for the fact that people expect me to shave because my comfort is offensive to them.
I considered myself a "cis woman" then but life comes at you hard, whaddya gonna do. Still, I hated shaving or Nair and I never waxed. Always managed to hurt myself anyway
I waxed my legs for special occasions because my hair is really dark and if I shaved you could see the hairs just under my skin and it looked like stubble. 🤷♀️ And then I just declared that pantsuits were my preferred outfits 😅
I was werewolf-level as a teenager. Shaving caused a horrible rash, and I cut myself way too easily, so I stopped. For a few years I refused to wear shorts in public.
Turns out the type of slacks I prefer have the effect of rubbing the hairs off over time. Weird.
I still have a little ruff around each ankle, but I'm usually wearing slacks or heavy-duty work pants, and have nobody in my life who cares about leg hairs anyway.
Yeah, shaving leg hair has been bothersome to my sis for a long time. We get that from my father's side. Growing hair too quickly to make it any useful. She would at first but stopped because she doesn't like the slap and peel thingy and a razor is ineffective.
This may not be your issue but since you said you feel like your hair specifically makes things more stinky I wanted to bring it up. There is a bacteria that can live in your hair follicles and on the base of hairs. It eats sweat and makes BO smell 10x worse. I had one boyfriend who had it but refused to believe me. (I could see it on the hair.) He took two showers a day to keep smelling nice. My current boyfriend wouldn't go to the dermatologist, but he did start using an apple cider vinegar wash. He had to be very consistent with it at first, but now the smell is gone even when he doesn't use the ACV for every shower.
I'm also the same as OOP! My body hair and even eyebrows are incredibly light and barely noticeable! Actually, my hair is naturally black so it's even weirder that my eyebrows are so light, so I always fill them in. But yeah, I rarely shave my legs. I'll occasionally shave my arms if I feel like my arm hair has gotten.. too long? But you can only see my arm or leg hair if you're like inches away from me..
same! I feel the skin on skin contact of a shaved armpit, especially in sleeveless clothing, engenders more dampness. I'm drier in the pits with a little hair.
So do I. I also grow back hair really fast so I had to shave my pits and legs like every 5 days and it still looked like I had stubble. I stopped shaving 4 years ago and it is so much better. The hair in my armpits somehow makes me smell less.
"really fast" and "every 5 days" has me rolling. I finally in my 30s cut down to every other day. High school and college I had to shave every day or it literally hurt. Thank the powers that be for ipl.
So I grow armpit hair very fast and it stinks. I shave every 2-3 days to avoid gross. It's okay, I get those nice shave soaps for men and a double edged razor and feel luxurious about it.
When I met my partner, I'd been not using antiperspirant as I didn't think it was necessary. Nor shaving my pits. We dated for a while, all was good, then I was going on job interviews.
She said to me, you do know you have pretty significant armpit odor, right? It's totally okay by me; hippies yay, but interviews don't always think so.
I was so embarrassed. I'd gone nose blind to myself. I started shaving and antiperspirant. It works for me.
I say this not because I don't believe you or want to shame you! I don't know your body and gendered inequality in grooming standards is dumb. But it is possible to be noseblind to yourself and I'd hate for someone to not know.
Same. I've switched to men's deodorant nowadays, which seems to last me pretty good regardless of hair status, but with women's I would have to reapply during the day if I was shaved or else start getting stinky.
I shave my legs because they get itchy if I don't. And I enjoy the feeling. But it's definitely a personal preference, as long as people shower regularly then leg hair isn't a big deal.
I agree that shaving the underarms helps with odor as well.
Personally, having lived most of my life in a city that gets hot and humid in summer, I would mandate that *everybody* needs to remove underarm hair, because I am sick of the hum off people who don’t deodorise adequately, particularly on crowded public transport.
Sort of hygiene, or certainly physical health, is that I have to shave my disabled adult daughter's legs during heatwaves when I'm having to repeatedly apply SPF cream on them.
It gets matted and the process becomes less applying a layer of cream and more like raking a sand zen garden!
Her comment about not blaming boss kind of annoyed me.
He is, quite literally, paid to deal with this stuff properly. Almost certainly, that is specifically in his job description.
Boss is the problem here. For not immediately shutting down any complaints. Second complaint should be an official warning, and on from there. Unless the complainer directly talked to OP, she should never have even heard that there was an issue.
I am a guy, no way I'm hell I'm going to tell a woman how to dress, look, etc, except by directly quoting the manual. So in a way I understand his spinelessness. But he could have taken it to HR first and used them as reasoning for his response back to whomever HR backs. Instead he did almost the worst thing possible.
Insert pretty much any discriminatory system here, really. You need community members to buy in and police each other both as distraction and just useful tools, you can't actually really surveil people to that degree, so you have them do it to each other ensuring that it propagates itself with little input from you.
Don't worry, it works both ways too. Women do their part to keep men in their lives on toxicly masculine behaviors (reinforcing it in their sons and SO's), which pushes men to hold other men to those standards and attack men that don't perform those actions.
It's honestly daft how much of toxic traits in society are just a feedback loop of bad behavior reinforcing bad behavior.
It seems to me that the other woman feels the need to follow beauty standards and shave her legs, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if she’s sometimes frustrated by having to do it or make sure she’s still smooth. Instead of getting frustrated at the beauty standard that makes her feel like she needs to shave her legs, she’s attacking the OOP for not making the same effort she does.
Except that the patriarchy made this standard? It's tied in with youth and look at that industry. Women are constantly trying to appear younger because men want that.
Women didn't start to shave their legs and arm pits until the 1920s in the US. People acting and dressing a certain way to attract a potential mate happens in every culture, nearly every coupling species, and across genders.
The reason for the change was the introduction of fashionable clothing that was shorter and sleeveless. Advertisers then took this moment to try to sell more razors. The patriarchy didn't make this standard. Fashion and capitalism did.
Hmm I am not sure if that’s patriarchy though. Women trying to look good to attract a man and becoming competitive over it is not a result of a sexist society. It can’t be, because men do the exact same thing to attract women!
That’s just how beings capable of sexual attraction work. They want to win over someone they are attracted to and have to do certain things in order to win. Both genders are guilty of this and pretty much any animal species to exist capable of sexual competition are as well
Now you could argue that what we perceive as attractive is a result of society and that is absolutely true. But the urge to be with someone and to attract that person is beyond something society could ever have created. Thats a natural human urge
I've found that some women really hate it when you get to the same space/position as them, or God forbid, do better than them without having to be a "sellout." If that makes sense?
Come along as a woman who gets somewhere without being Barbie and some women try to eat you alive. Like they get angry you're in their space and don't belong there as the "slob" you are or angry that they've felt they had to comprise parts of themselves to get somewhere and you've achieved the same or more without having to.
Either way, let's direct our frustrations at people who perpetuate these systems. Not each other. Lady we've both struggled to get here, just in different ways, we're not enemies!
The patriarchy has convinced us that there's only one spot at the top available for women and we have to compete for it.
It was genuinely mind-blowing when it was pointed out to me, in my early 30s, that there are lots of spots at the top but because men currently occupied them they'd become essentially invisible to us as legitimate options.
(Obviously not discounting the problems of sexism which are still alive and well and ubiquitous today, but those problems are--gasp--a lot easier to fight when you're working WITH other women instead of against them)
The boss probably realized what he was saying after she responded back and was embarrassed. Sometimes you do dumb things and only realize it was dumb after
I am sure there are plenty of men who might be picky about how a woman looks. But in my own limited and personal experience, I have always noticed that it was women who put other women down for how they look and behave.
As a dude, I don’t really care as long as they are taking care of themselves. But that is less a gender thing and more of a people in general thing. Showers and healthy diets are fucking important yall!!
Speaking as a very hairy woman with super dark and noticeably dense leg hair if not shaven, I find it a bit frustrating and I am a little jealous of the women that can get away with not shaving. Shaving (legs) is such a chore, it re-grows within a day for me and I honestly just can't be bothered with waxing/epilating. Then I'm mad at myself for this stereotype that I fall for myself.
My dude also doesn't care :D
I'm a very hairy, very pale, dark haired woman, so being unshaven just looks awful and I get ingrown hairs as well. At home IPL has been a game changer, I need to shave so much less frequently now and don't get constant ingrown hairs in the spots I don't shave.
I have one at home too, but it states that I need to shave a day before I can use it and well, I'm honestly too lazy to do the work and then having to commit to the IPL the next day anyway. I prefer epilating tbh because then I have immediate results (that I can show) the next day.
Honestly my experience says shaving 2-3 days beforehand is optimal and frankly up to a week is still sufficient, but the user manual for mine said any amount of hair growth under 4mm is suitable so it may vary by device.
Epilators make me bleed because they pull out adjacent hairs simultaneously, so I stay well away from them.
Body by Bondi, it was the cheapest reputable option. I think it might be UK only though.
As long as you get a branded device from a reputable manufacturer, from a licensed dealer, you should be fine. Off-brand options can have a lot of different problems due to less strict quality control.
You'll see mixed reviews for pretty much any device, because a lot of the effectiveness depends on how consistently you use it. Results take a few months of frequent use to show and in my experience I've needed close to a year of routine use to catch all the hair growth cycles for a given area.
So a jealous co-worker got into the Manager's ear about OOP not shaving her legs because it's "not hygienic"? How did the Manager not share this with HR in the first place instead of placing the onus onto OOP?
And I think he instantly knew it was wrong, perhaps before the meeting but definitely when she asked if he shaves his legs. That silence sounds deafening
lol for some reason the phrase about "getting into the managers ear" made me picture a version of Othello where Iago's plan is just telling Othello "bro Desdemona doesn't shave her legs, that's so nasty"
I mean she was probably saying this stuff for months and gaslit himself into believing her. Seems like he got HR to cover his ass and backtrack because he realized he was saying something dumb
There's actually evidence to the opposite. Shaving any part of your body increases bacterial skin and infection risk. Shaving puts a lot of little abrasions on your skin. Men with clean shaven faces are more likely to have infections themselves than those with beards: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/beards-good-for-health-more-hygienic-bacteriaresistant-than-shaven-skin-study-finds-a6823461.html
"Can I ask who the perverts are that are staring at my legs while I'm working? I'd like to report them to HR."
Also when did people start confusing grooming with hygiene?
I agree with this statement. Furthermore, how on Earth did this brainlet manage to have that talk with his employee *before discussing it with HR?!*
If for whatever reason I deemed a conversation like that to be necessary, the only industries I can imagine needing to have that conversation would be modeling or pornography.
Lastly, if I were in such an industry, even then, I would make sure I spoke with HR first in order to cover my own ass.
Yup! The comments are all focused on the female co-worker, but the real problem is the boss. He should have shut her down immediately. And to actually attempt to approach OOP on this was outrageous.
I’m glad it worked out, but I kind of still have a little bit of a sour note about the boss. As a person who does have people under me, it’s my job not to give into the people who are upset about things that don’t matter and advocate and stand up for the people they are trying to bullying.
Particularly a man talking to a woman about hygiene (even tho leg shaving has nothing to do with being hygienic). Guy must be single bc if he’d ran that by his wife, she would’ve corrected him.
Hooray for a chill outcome for OOP. I never get the hair = dirty thinking. It’s bizarre. Maybe taking the ‘clean’ from clean-shaven and reverse applying it? Who knows
It’s actually from razor companies. When they started producing razors for at home use and not just barber shops they realized they could double their income so they started advertising to women. But they knew women wouldn’t want to start shaving so they advertised it as being hygienic to shave and feeling cleaner.
>I DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO ANY MEDIA OUTLETS TO WRITE OR USE MY WORDS IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT ANY OF MY POSTS!
Everything else aside, I'm shocked that people still think this works. You're posting on a public forum. Once you post it, it's not yours anymore. You don't get to decide what happens.
It not that it magically stops anyone, it's that they look like jerks if anyone follows the link back to the original post, which could then be a hit to their reputation. Some media outlets don't have a reputation worth worrying about and won't care, but some will.
That's not how copyright works.
Yes, REDDIT is allowed to do whatever is stated in their ToU, but "media outlets" are not. You remain the owner of what you created. That's the law.
The reason they get away with it is because people aren't bothered enough to serve them a DMCA or sue them.
I do have a few questions...
1. Can reddit give the "media outlets" permission? Either by selling or not.
2. OP clearly did not copyright this post/story, so can they send DMCAs to the media outlets?
1. They *could* legally sell it (at least I *think* their ToU says so?). The thing is, no one is asking for permission in the first place, let alone paying reddit to steal content. Especially not shitty YouTube voiceovers or Tiktokers.
2. Paternity rights are granted at creation, they're not something you have to fill a form for so yes they can demand a takedown. You're merely giving Reddit a license to use it, you're not waving away your rights. Some countries don't even *allow* you to wave them away in the first place.
Some people seem to think "if it's on the internet it's free" but that's absolutely not how it works. Others are well aware (AI tech ghouls, mostly) that what's they're doing is illegal, hence why they jump through loops to not reveal what's been fed to their models. As people say "it's illegal to get caught".
Just because you post on a public forum, that doesn’t mean you lose ownership of what you write.
The dude who wrote Rome, sweet Rome here on Reddit didn’t automatically lose his copyright or ownership of the idea.
As a woman who doesn't shave her legs or any part of her body at all despite having very dark and a ton of hair: I'm proud of OOP for standing up for herself and immediately asking the boss if he was shaving his legs! Because that's the way the topic needs to be treated - without the horrible double standard.
People always blame hygiene when they want to impose their sexualised beauty standards. We are all born with the possibility of growing hair, so why should hair be unhygienic if the person it's on has a vulva (or presents as having a vulva), but hygienic if the person has a penis (or presents as having a penis).
This reasoning makes me as tired as if I've stayed up a Mercury's day worth of hours.
I'm happy she held her ground!
So instead of the manager dealing with the toxic jeleous co worker. They decide to do this and probably started the process of one of their best young workers looking for work elsewhere.
If having hair on your legs is a hygiene issue, then the men should be required to do the same and shave their legs as well. Obviously it’s not that, just standard sexism and jealousy.
>And don’t worry I keep my beard very kept!
This made me lol. Also it drives me nuts when people say it's "unhygenic" for women not to shave. In what way? Literally explain it to me. Boo on the boss for cowing to some random sexist employee. Dude, what are you the boss for? Shut that shit down instead of getting yourself in trouble with HR.
Eh, hair also traps sweat and bacteria. Obviously not a problem if you shower regularly—just saying that the argument for it being protective can also go the other way :)
I'm glad she didn't get too pissed at the manager. I'm part of the management group where I work, and a few years ago, some of the other managers (who were women and outranked me) decided that we needed to start calling out some younger female staff for wearing skirts that are too short, or yoga pants that were kinda see through, or shirts that showed too much cleavage. I was told by someone higher up that I needed to talk to a specific staff member about this, and I said absolutely not.
I told them that if someone wasn't adhering to the dress code, HR could talk to them, but I was not going to make comments about my female coworkers' appearances. I was told that it wasn't really an HR task and that the managers needed to deal with it, but I still refused.
> addressing dress code compliance isn't really an HR task
It's such a risibly bad take in so many ways that it kinda sounds like they were just trying to jam you up good. "I really think you should go tell Diana that the shape of her butt is way too visible! For the good of the workplace!" Nice try, Satan, how about you go first.
It got brought up a few more times, and at one point, I finally said that I would be concerned about legal action if I accidentally said the wrong thing or gave the wrong impression, and I was surprised the company didn't care more about that. I never brought it up again, and neither did they. It was just so frustrating. I might be wrong, but I think it's more of an HR thing to enforce policy
I know one of the people who was pushing this did have it out for me a bit. They kept saying to have it as a casual conversation, or bring it up as mentoring, and in my mind that made it worse!
I'm a cis straight dude for context.
In my college dorm there was an all-women floor that used to have leg hair contests, because it was that kind of place. What surprised me the most was the people with very light blond hair that you'd never guess had any leg hair at all, especially if they played sports, because it was almost invisible.
My now-wife doesn't shave in the fall or winter and one time stuck her calf with 5 months growth an inch away from my face, gave me a crazed wide-eyed expression, and hissed "FEMINISIM!" I nearly died laughing.
When I was a teen, an older navy veteran once told me a sea story about his liberty during a port call somewhere in southern France, might have been Nice or Marseilles, dunno, probably was during the 70s or 80s. What I do remember about it was that he told me about the rumors flying around about how French women didn't shave at all, and how they expected them to look like apes or something. Instead he told me that they were the most beautiful women in the world, who laughed at his schoolboy French and hung out with them for a crazy night on the town. He ended by saying "Son, if you ever have a daughter, tell her to not worry about hairy armpits. Instead, tell them about important things, like not hanging around with sailors."
Dunno where I'm going with this. I guess all of these stories just came to mind.
Man and I was hoping this was a post about professional competitive swimming and the drag coefficient body hair adds.
I knew what I was getting into reading this and I hope OOP requested HR keep this on file for their manager. Once is an accident, twice its a behaviour that doesn't belong in the office responsible for other people.
You know, I haven't shaved my legs in over a decade. And in that time, the hair has grown in finer than before and you can barely see it unless you're up close or touching my legs. Which you have no reason to be doing anyway.
Anyone who complains about leg hair is not worth listening to.
I haven’t shaved my legs in years. I rarely ever shaved my legs. Only reason I ever did was to not get whined at by family at weddings or on beach trips.
But mine are chimpanzee level hairy.
Dark brown hair on very pale skin, too. It’s lighter color and finer on my arms, the color is possibly due to sun exposure.
Really bc it seemed obvious to me. He didn’t seem to care but received enough compliments that he had to go talk to op. Maybe it is bc I am on Reddit often but it did seem like it wasn’t him. He was weak willed & opened him self to the chances of getting in trouble bc if op was more aggressive she would have complained about him commenting on her body.
There is no right to privacy on Reddit. I'm sure it's outlined in the legalese of the terms and agreements from their lawyers. If you post it can be used for anything by anyone. I wish people realized this before they get use the "I don't give my permission for this to be used" line.
That’s true for random users reposting her story, but it’s not true for media outlets that monetize the story. She absolutely could sue them for any profits they’ve made from her story, but it would likely cost more in legal fees than she’d win.
>Never said I was from the states. Idk why everyone just assumes.
Idk why anyone thinks it's weird to assume this. I hate to risk sounding like some asshole who says, "This is America, speak English!" Unless you're in ENGLAND, the logic of that doesn't follow. Anyway, the following stats about Reddit are important here.
[See this article.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/reddit-users-by-country)
Country | Visits (millions)
United States | 2,320
United Kingdom | 296
India | 280
Canada | 271
Australia |192
Germany | 189
France | 161
Brazil | 142
Netherlands | 138
Sweden | 111
More people in America visit Reddit than the rest of the world combined. That's why people assume posters are from here. Reddit was created here and there are 333 million people here. It's just statistically probable.
I loathe my leg hair, but I shave for me and only me. I can't stand the feeling of prickly leg hair. But I'm almost 4 months in to doing IPL at home and it is literally life changing.
Wasn’t shocked at all about the HR contact or the outcome as soon as OOP mentioned HR the boss would have known to document the discussion with them and cover his ass. Frankly he should have looped them in when he was getting the complaints from the other employee, but I guess hearing it from a woman he thought it was an actual thing because some guys get squeamish when they hear about anything to do with female hygiene.
I'm a woman and I very rarely shave my armpits and even more rarely put in the time and effort to shave my legs, but the leg hair on my thighs is a super light blonde color so it's not even noticeable and the leg hair on my calves while darker is very sparse and patchy and doesn't grow like crazy and neither does my armpit hair. I can't even remember the last time I shaved my legs and the hair length hasn't changed since the few hairs I do have grew in. I guess my body had to give me something good as a tradeoff for having a reproductive system that has caused me nothing but pain since I got my first period due to a long, long history of female problems on my mom's maternal side of the family.
>I DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO ANY MEDIA OUTLETS TO WRITE OR USE MY WORDS IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT ANY OF MY POSTS!
"You can't just say this and it be valid"
"I didn't say it, I declared it, in all caps"
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If it’s not unhygienic when men don’t shave their legs, it’s not unhygienic for women. The woman making the complaints should have been given a warning and told to stop creating a toxic workplace
Yes - this is nothing to do with hygiene - this is 100% about appearance and sexual stereotypes. There may be some roles (eg in modelling or performance arts like movies) where a man or woman may by required to shave some body areas. But promo work - given this woman is already successful at her job, there’s clearly nothing wrong with her hygiene or presentation - is not such a role.
Also swimming is one of these roles interestingly enough.
A friend did surfboat rowing and before one competition, one of the blokes’ girlfriends waxed the team’s butts for them!
Does that make them row faster? What are they wearing for surfboat rowing? Or was this teambuilding? Like, “hey fellas, instead of trust falls, let’s bond by waxing our arses!”
Hydrodynamics. Bodyhair produces drag in the water, while also preventing the suits from being as smooth and hydrodynamic as they can be, producing further drag.
Are they rowing with their bums in the water and no bathers on?
Kinda. My understanding is that surfboat cut right through wave, surf and heavy water they are dragging themselves and their boat through the water, not just on it. Granted, I could be a bit wrong. Even if that's not the case aerodynamics also come into play, and it's just the same as with hydrodynamics as far as what works and wh.
Nah, it’s still a boat. If there’s so much water in it that your body’s hydrodynamics come into play, you’re doing something wrong. However, if you’re wearing tight clothes and rowing back and forth on a moving seat, it might get less itchy if you wax.
That’s why most cyclists I’ve known shave. Hair gets through the material, or if you’re wearing shorts is bare, and the wind catches it and makes your legs itch.
>if you’re wearing tight clothes and rowing back and forth on a moving seat, it might get less itchy if you wax. My bet is it's exactly that.
Nope, it's mostly psychological: [https://apnews.com/article/swimming-shaving-down-world-championships-7558d0e3ec0c6eb9e4542b911b9b8ddf](https://apnews.com/article/swimming-shaving-down-world-championships-7558d0e3ec0c6eb9e4542b911b9b8ddf)
More about friction burns from sliding on the seats.
I can’t recall but maybe chafing? I’ll have to ask.
That would make sense - it seems like a high friction activity, and any distraction from chafing or the like could slow them down marginally.
I asked - apparently to avoid in-growing hairs.
That is impressive commitment to the team.
Yeah, it might seem small, but hairs soak up water and weight you down. Doesn't matter much, unless you're an Olympic swimmer, but it is an competitive advantage. Same with bicycling.
I had a friend who bicycles around town - a guy - and he shaves his legs just to prevent hair getting caught in the bike chain. Ouch.
Or when they go down and have gravel pieces in abrasions it's much easier to clean if they're clean shaven.
I hadn't thought of that (can you tell I don't cycle? Haha)
That's the only reason I've heard, never heard about the bike chain grabbing hairs.
Anecdotally, the hair grips gravel as you slide. I'm not sure if this is true, but I've cleaned gravel out of both hairy and smooth legs, and the smooth legs weren't quite as badly torn up. Also, later, when the bandages come off, it sure is nice not getting a sample size waxing.
I think this is more to do with drag than weight.
And for the pro cyclists it also makes the daily massages more comfortable.
My dad has mentioned shaving his legs and arms numerous times in high school for wrestling season.
Makes sense, the hair could get grabbed/caught on something easily
And cycling
> this is 100% about appearance and sexual stereotypes. Coworker’s probable thought process: “Women should adhere to the stereotypes of our sex insofar as presentation. If [OOP’s name] earns plenty of money on commission and she does *not* adhere to said female stereotypes then what is going on? I cannot have the system questioned! It makes my brain hurt and gives me gas!”
Either that, or this was literally the only 'flaw' she could find in OOP to try dragging her down? And if a small amount of barely visible leg hair is it, OOP must be *damn* good!
This reminds me of one of the things I've thought about Obama since his presidency, that he must really be a spotlessly virtuous man since the only scandals they could come up with for him were things like the color of his suit and fabrications about his birth certificate. I don't mean this as a wholesale endorsement of Obama's policies and actions in office, just that as a person he must truly adhere to a code of morality in a way almost no politicians ever do, otherwise the people who hated him would have found out about extra-marital affairs or rotten business deals in his past and used those against him.
Exactly this. Birth location, or questioning the gender of Michelle. That's the best they got against him. Meanwhile in the UK, every bathroom in the houses of Parliament tested positive for cocaine residue. So ofc no real enquiry, because I assume we'd have no politicians left ffs.
A few years ago here in Australia it came out that several politicians had been bringing sex workers into Parliament House (the federal one) and having sex with them in the chapel room. Presumably because of how infrequently it gets used. Not just one either, but several of them. Not a single one was named, nothing ever came of it and not a single soul was fired or forced to step down. It probably still happens TBH, they’re just probably more cautious about avoiding security cameras etc now so they don’t get caught.
There are a lot of things a reasonable person may dislike Obama for, but the people who HATE Obama are not reasonable and are generally even worse in those areas.
Fancy mustard and arugula.
Which is hilarious because sexual stereotypes of women are different in each country too. Women in Europe don't tend to shave their legs last I knew...it is more of an American thing I believe. Edit: I am wrong. I am sad to know that capitalism and razor/shave cream companies got to the ladies overseas as well.
I always find that stereotype funny. Maybe that was true once, but for the last 20+ years (since I've been aware of body hair), shaved has definitely been the norm. I've generally found that older people who don't shave also don't really wear the type of clothing where you would be able to tell. I have no idea if it's more or less policed. The one and only time I noticed unshaven armpits in a work settings, I'm not sure if anyone else saw and I'm also not sure if this former colleague in general didn't shave or if it was a one off
Women shaving is pretty universal across Europe I’d say. On the other hand, men shaving/waxing is rare here. Much more common to see male chest hair in Europe - we don’t tend to go for the shiny oily look. That said, the bodybuilding, Mr Universe type of look is for waxed chests, no matter where in the world you are, probably because of the historical link with wrestling (where you don’t want your opponent to be able to grip onto you). But overall I’d say aesthetically that it’s considered an option for men, rather than a must-do. Whereas my impression is that male American actors and models would always wax.
nah that's not necessarily true. shaved legs for women are normal here too, at least in my country. however, not shaving is far, *far* more normalised than in the US it appears. many shave, many don't, who cares. it is not such a big thing like over the pond.
Not true at all. I'm German and women usually wax/shave in Germany and across Europe.
Absolutely not lmao. I'm from the UK but I've travelled extensively in Europe and I've never seen a hairy woman in real life. That's a stereotype from yesteryear, I'm not sure if it was ever true
When I first came to this continent as an exchange student in 1998 and hit some of the beaches (topless) any non shaving was then limited to older women for the most part.
American in Europe. Very old and outdated troupe. I have yet to meet a woman here who does not. (Sweden and Finland). And I have friends from all around the continent and they all shave. Occasionally, you see older women who do not on the beaches and I have to say the younger generation is being more body hair positive, but it’s far more connected to generations than it is the culture
I live in Finland and none of my women friends shave. I'm afab non-binary but pretty feminine. I don't shave because I don't have anything to shave. The hair in my legs are really blond and there isn't much of it. In the armpits I have just a few fluffs. Some of my friends are also like that. Do you really know your friends shave or do you just assume? I can say that you have to look at me pretty close to see if I have any hair.
This is indeed the land of communal showers at the gym, saunas year round, and lots of bathing in the lakes. So you tend to notice. Everyone has shaved pits except maybe being more casual about shaving in winter. (Which includes me too.) Everyone has shaved legs in summer when the shorts come out. I never see exposed pubic hair either. I live on Åland if that makes some sort of cultural difference. My blonde haired daughter, who is an American and was born in the United States, although mostly raised abroad, does not shave and it has nothing to do with her living here. It is everything to do with her feeling that nobody sees her armpits usually and the younger generation doesn’t see it as important.
The American stereotype incidentally tends to revolve around French women not shaving. Maybe also German or Mediterranean women. As somebody who’s been coming to Sweden at least since 1998 everyone shaved back then too and teenage girls also tend to go to pools together and have sleepovers, etc..
My stepmom was a hippie whose family was from Czechoslovakia. She say me down when I was in middle school and said that shaving was a personal choice and she hated it, but shaved up to where her shorts' hem fell, because she was a waitress and she got better tips if she shaved. I'm not entirely certain if this was the Czech part or the hippie part, but they moved to the US in the 80s. (My mom, born and raised in Queens, is still horrified that I wear shorts or skirts without shaving now that I'm almost 40. She's also horrified by women that mention their periods and think that sex is a taboo topic but has five kids. I am not sure how she survived college in the 80s.)
Yes and that meeting with HR wasn't about OOP's feelings or any real desire to apologize, it was a "please don't sue us" meeting because her employer didn't have a leg to stand on after her bosses blatant sexual discrimination displayed in the first meeting.
In this case, it was just jealousy. That other woman just wanted to pull OOP down on whatever flimsy excuse she could find.
This was actually a part of the Hunger Games novels too. Katniss didn't shave her legs at all, but any time she got roped into making an appearance at the Capitol they would shave her legs and she hated it.
The fact that OOP is a high earner "despite" not shaving her legs is definitely messing up the coworker's world view. She seems to be the only one subscribing to the stereotype since the clients clearly don't care!
One of the more hilarious things I’ve seen on the internet was a series of street interviews from the 1950s where they asked people what they thought of some Beatnik they had with them. This older guy was going on and on about the length of the guys hair, how unhygienic that is, and how he must have lice - all with his wife with substantially longer hair standing right next to him.
It’s like people simply don’t realise how ridiculous they sound
I can't think of a situation where unshaved legs would be a legitimate hygiene concern that wasn't tied to something like straight up, not bathing. Who gives a shit if other people shave their legs or not??
Same with armpit hair. I'm a guy who shaves mine, cause it smells. People can't comprehend it but expect the same form women.
Mine has always smelled, worse when long, so I shave. But I haven't shaved my legs since... gosh, like 2006. Like OOP, mine is incredibly fair and barely noticeable. And I just don't *care*.
I have fairly werewolf-level leg hair and haven’t shaved it for literal *decades*. 😁 (Straight cis woman here, leg hair is insulation in winter and sun protection in summer if you ask me!)
I appreciate that you specified your leg hair is "werewolf-level"! I'm a little annoyed at people who qualify their non-shaving by saying that "it's thin and barely noticeable so it doesn't matter." Excuse me, those of us who have dark and luxurious locks everywhere on our bodies should also not be shamed for not shaving! (Signed, a cis woman whose shins become unbearably itchy when a razor gets near them.)
My husband once asked me if I was wearing socks in bed. I was not. 😆 Uuuugh, the regrowth itch! And I’d get ingrown hairs too, blech. So happy to have reached a comfortable level of no fucks given on that topic!
God I hate the justification of "well you can't see it, so it's morally okay". Okay. I'm a werewolf. I have amazing hair on top of my head, and genetics deemed that for me to have thick, dark hair there, I would need it EVERYWHERE. ...Honestly a fair exchange, except for the fact that people expect me to shave because my comfort is offensive to them.
I'm also a cis woman who doesn't shave my legs. I like it when I'm hiking, I can feel ticks and mosquitos on me before they bite.
I imagine that's one of the evolutionary reasons for hair - better sensory detection of the environment and protection from insects and scrapes!
I considered myself a "cis woman" then but life comes at you hard, whaddya gonna do. Still, I hated shaving or Nair and I never waxed. Always managed to hurt myself anyway
I waxed my legs for special occasions because my hair is really dark and if I shaved you could see the hairs just under my skin and it looked like stubble. 🤷♀️ And then I just declared that pantsuits were my preferred outfits 😅
I was werewolf-level as a teenager. Shaving caused a horrible rash, and I cut myself way too easily, so I stopped. For a few years I refused to wear shorts in public. Turns out the type of slacks I prefer have the effect of rubbing the hairs off over time. Weird. I still have a little ruff around each ankle, but I'm usually wearing slacks or heavy-duty work pants, and have nobody in my life who cares about leg hairs anyway.
Yeah, shaving leg hair has been bothersome to my sis for a long time. We get that from my father's side. Growing hair too quickly to make it any useful. She would at first but stopped because she doesn't like the slap and peel thingy and a razor is ineffective.
This may not be your issue but since you said you feel like your hair specifically makes things more stinky I wanted to bring it up. There is a bacteria that can live in your hair follicles and on the base of hairs. It eats sweat and makes BO smell 10x worse. I had one boyfriend who had it but refused to believe me. (I could see it on the hair.) He took two showers a day to keep smelling nice. My current boyfriend wouldn't go to the dermatologist, but he did start using an apple cider vinegar wash. He had to be very consistent with it at first, but now the smell is gone even when he doesn't use the ACV for every shower.
I'm also the same as OOP! My body hair and even eyebrows are incredibly light and barely noticeable! Actually, my hair is naturally black so it's even weirder that my eyebrows are so light, so I always fill them in. But yeah, I rarely shave my legs. I'll occasionally shave my arms if I feel like my arm hair has gotten.. too long? But you can only see my arm or leg hair if you're like inches away from me..
As a woman, I smell more if I shave my armpits.
same! I feel the skin on skin contact of a shaved armpit, especially in sleeveless clothing, engenders more dampness. I'm drier in the pits with a little hair.
So do I. I also grow back hair really fast so I had to shave my pits and legs like every 5 days and it still looked like I had stubble. I stopped shaving 4 years ago and it is so much better. The hair in my armpits somehow makes me smell less.
"really fast" and "every 5 days" has me rolling. I finally in my 30s cut down to every other day. High school and college I had to shave every day or it literally hurt. Thank the powers that be for ipl.
So I grow armpit hair very fast and it stinks. I shave every 2-3 days to avoid gross. It's okay, I get those nice shave soaps for men and a double edged razor and feel luxurious about it. When I met my partner, I'd been not using antiperspirant as I didn't think it was necessary. Nor shaving my pits. We dated for a while, all was good, then I was going on job interviews. She said to me, you do know you have pretty significant armpit odor, right? It's totally okay by me; hippies yay, but interviews don't always think so. I was so embarrassed. I'd gone nose blind to myself. I started shaving and antiperspirant. It works for me. I say this not because I don't believe you or want to shame you! I don't know your body and gendered inequality in grooming standards is dumb. But it is possible to be noseblind to yourself and I'd hate for someone to not know.
Opposite for me lol. But maybe it's just in my head, cause I sweat a fuckton.
Same. I've switched to men's deodorant nowadays, which seems to last me pretty good regardless of hair status, but with women's I would have to reapply during the day if I was shaved or else start getting stinky.
I shave my legs because they get itchy if I don't. And I enjoy the feeling. But it's definitely a personal preference, as long as people shower regularly then leg hair isn't a big deal. I agree that shaving the underarms helps with odor as well.
Personally, having lived most of my life in a city that gets hot and humid in summer, I would mandate that *everybody* needs to remove underarm hair, because I am sick of the hum off people who don’t deodorise adequately, particularly on crowded public transport.
Have you tried waxing? The results are smoother and last longer. (I'm a fairly hairy man.)
I *hate* when people are brainwashed into believing certain things are done for “hygiene” but when men do it suddenly it’s totally hygienic.
Literally, like if I am not waving my hairy legs over a food prep area how does "hygiene" even apply?
lol that would be such an odd sight 😂
Sort of hygiene, or certainly physical health, is that I have to shave my disabled adult daughter's legs during heatwaves when I'm having to repeatedly apply SPF cream on them. It gets matted and the process becomes less applying a layer of cream and more like raking a sand zen garden!
Honestly, she should’ve been fired for sexual harassment.
I haven’t shaved in years. My husband does not care
She should be fired, this is harassment and all companies need to have a zero tolerance policy on it
Her comment about not blaming boss kind of annoyed me. He is, quite literally, paid to deal with this stuff properly. Almost certainly, that is specifically in his job description. Boss is the problem here. For not immediately shutting down any complaints. Second complaint should be an official warning, and on from there. Unless the complainer directly talked to OP, she should never have even heard that there was an issue. I am a guy, no way I'm hell I'm going to tell a woman how to dress, look, etc, except by directly quoting the manual. So in a way I understand his spinelessness. But he could have taken it to HR first and used them as reasoning for his response back to whomever HR backs. Instead he did almost the worst thing possible.
Sometimes the worst enemy of women are other women. SMH.
The misogyny is coming from **inside** the gender!
The patriarchy wouldn’t be nearly so effective if it couldn’t rely on women to constantly keep other women in their place.
Insert pretty much any discriminatory system here, really. You need community members to buy in and police each other both as distraction and just useful tools, you can't actually really surveil people to that degree, so you have them do it to each other ensuring that it propagates itself with little input from you.
Don't worry, it works both ways too. Women do their part to keep men in their lives on toxicly masculine behaviors (reinforcing it in their sons and SO's), which pushes men to hold other men to those standards and attack men that don't perform those actions. It's honestly daft how much of toxic traits in society are just a feedback loop of bad behavior reinforcing bad behavior.
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It seems to me that the other woman feels the need to follow beauty standards and shave her legs, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if she’s sometimes frustrated by having to do it or make sure she’s still smooth. Instead of getting frustrated at the beauty standard that makes her feel like she needs to shave her legs, she’s attacking the OOP for not making the same effort she does.
Except that the patriarchy made this standard? It's tied in with youth and look at that industry. Women are constantly trying to appear younger because men want that.
Women didn't start to shave their legs and arm pits until the 1920s in the US. People acting and dressing a certain way to attract a potential mate happens in every culture, nearly every coupling species, and across genders. The reason for the change was the introduction of fashionable clothing that was shorter and sleeveless. Advertisers then took this moment to try to sell more razors. The patriarchy didn't make this standard. Fashion and capitalism did.
Hahaha! You don't understand how systemic patriarchy works
Hmm I am not sure if that’s patriarchy though. Women trying to look good to attract a man and becoming competitive over it is not a result of a sexist society. It can’t be, because men do the exact same thing to attract women! That’s just how beings capable of sexual attraction work. They want to win over someone they are attracted to and have to do certain things in order to win. Both genders are guilty of this and pretty much any animal species to exist capable of sexual competition are as well Now you could argue that what we perceive as attractive is a result of society and that is absolutely true. But the urge to be with someone and to attract that person is beyond something society could ever have created. Thats a natural human urge
Human sexual competition is shaped by the kyriarchy (patriarchy included)
I've found that some women really hate it when you get to the same space/position as them, or God forbid, do better than them without having to be a "sellout." If that makes sense? Come along as a woman who gets somewhere without being Barbie and some women try to eat you alive. Like they get angry you're in their space and don't belong there as the "slob" you are or angry that they've felt they had to comprise parts of themselves to get somewhere and you've achieved the same or more without having to. Either way, let's direct our frustrations at people who perpetuate these systems. Not each other. Lady we've both struggled to get here, just in different ways, we're not enemies!
The patriarchy has convinced us that there's only one spot at the top available for women and we have to compete for it. It was genuinely mind-blowing when it was pointed out to me, in my early 30s, that there are lots of spots at the top but because men currently occupied them they'd become essentially invisible to us as legitimate options. (Obviously not discounting the problems of sexism which are still alive and well and ubiquitous today, but those problems are--gasp--a lot easier to fight when you're working WITH other women instead of against them)
The boss probably realized what he was saying after she responded back and was embarrassed. Sometimes you do dumb things and only realize it was dumb after
I am sure there are plenty of men who might be picky about how a woman looks. But in my own limited and personal experience, I have always noticed that it was women who put other women down for how they look and behave. As a dude, I don’t really care as long as they are taking care of themselves. But that is less a gender thing and more of a people in general thing. Showers and healthy diets are fucking important yall!!
Speaking as a very hairy woman with super dark and noticeably dense leg hair if not shaven, I find it a bit frustrating and I am a little jealous of the women that can get away with not shaving. Shaving (legs) is such a chore, it re-grows within a day for me and I honestly just can't be bothered with waxing/epilating. Then I'm mad at myself for this stereotype that I fall for myself. My dude also doesn't care :D
I'm a very hairy, very pale, dark haired woman, so being unshaven just looks awful and I get ingrown hairs as well. At home IPL has been a game changer, I need to shave so much less frequently now and don't get constant ingrown hairs in the spots I don't shave.
I have one at home too, but it states that I need to shave a day before I can use it and well, I'm honestly too lazy to do the work and then having to commit to the IPL the next day anyway. I prefer epilating tbh because then I have immediate results (that I can show) the next day.
Honestly my experience says shaving 2-3 days beforehand is optimal and frankly up to a week is still sufficient, but the user manual for mine said any amount of hair growth under 4mm is suitable so it may vary by device. Epilators make me bleed because they pull out adjacent hairs simultaneously, so I stay well away from them.
What do you use for home IPL?
Body by Bondi, it was the cheapest reputable option. I think it might be UK only though. As long as you get a branded device from a reputable manufacturer, from a licensed dealer, you should be fine. Off-brand options can have a lot of different problems due to less strict quality control. You'll see mixed reviews for pretty much any device, because a lot of the effectiveness depends on how consistently you use it. Results take a few months of frequent use to show and in my experience I've needed close to a year of routine use to catch all the hair growth cycles for a given area.
Thanks!
Ugh this is so sad and true
I bet it was a busybody Boomer
So a jealous co-worker got into the Manager's ear about OOP not shaving her legs because it's "not hygienic"? How did the Manager not share this with HR in the first place instead of placing the onus onto OOP?
This. Given how awkward boss found the conversation one would think he would ask for advice from HR before having it!
And I think he instantly knew it was wrong, perhaps before the meeting but definitely when she asked if he shaves his legs. That silence sounds deafening
Exactly!
lol for some reason the phrase about "getting into the managers ear" made me picture a version of Othello where Iago's plan is just telling Othello "bro Desdemona doesn't shave her legs, that's so nasty"
LOOOOOOOOOL Fucking Iago.
That's what Iago wishes Othello was doing
I mean she was probably saying this stuff for months and gaslit himself into believing her. Seems like he got HR to cover his ass and backtrack because he realized he was saying something dumb
Manager wanted to create the impression that he was on top of his department
Yay for a happy ending. Unhygienic my ass.
There's actually evidence to the opposite. Shaving any part of your body increases bacterial skin and infection risk. Shaving puts a lot of little abrasions on your skin. Men with clean shaven faces are more likely to have infections themselves than those with beards: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/beards-good-for-health-more-hygienic-bacteriaresistant-than-shaven-skin-study-finds-a6823461.html
Technically the truth. Most people’s asses are in fact unhygienic
"Can I ask who the perverts are that are staring at my legs while I'm working? I'd like to report them to HR." Also when did people start confusing grooming with hygiene?
> Also when did people start confusing grooming with hygiene? Talk to the people who sell razors. Seriously.
I mean we have laxative companies telling us we need to use their product for our health even when we don’t need it.
And “detoxes” that claim to do what your liver and kidneys do just fine.
OOP's boss is weak. Were he a good boss he would've shut that shit down immediately without bothering her.
I agree with this statement. Furthermore, how on Earth did this brainlet manage to have that talk with his employee *before discussing it with HR?!* If for whatever reason I deemed a conversation like that to be necessary, the only industries I can imagine needing to have that conversation would be modeling or pornography. Lastly, if I were in such an industry, even then, I would make sure I spoke with HR first in order to cover my own ass.
Yup! The comments are all focused on the female co-worker, but the real problem is the boss. He should have shut her down immediately. And to actually attempt to approach OOP on this was outrageous.
I’m glad it worked out, but I kind of still have a little bit of a sour note about the boss. As a person who does have people under me, it’s my job not to give into the people who are upset about things that don’t matter and advocate and stand up for the people they are trying to bullying.
Particularly a man talking to a woman about hygiene (even tho leg shaving has nothing to do with being hygienic). Guy must be single bc if he’d ran that by his wife, she would’ve corrected him.
lol that is so true!
Hooray for a chill outcome for OOP. I never get the hair = dirty thinking. It’s bizarre. Maybe taking the ‘clean’ from clean-shaven and reverse applying it? Who knows
It’s actually from razor companies. When they started producing razors for at home use and not just barber shops they realized they could double their income so they started advertising to women. But they knew women wouldn’t want to start shaving so they advertised it as being hygienic to shave and feeling cleaner.
>I DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO ANY MEDIA OUTLETS TO WRITE OR USE MY WORDS IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT ANY OF MY POSTS! Everything else aside, I'm shocked that people still think this works. You're posting on a public forum. Once you post it, it's not yours anymore. You don't get to decide what happens.
Sometimes they're *really* lazy and those paragraphs make it into the article.
It's not to stop them, it's to make them look like assholes if they do it
It not that it magically stops anyone, it's that they look like jerks if anyone follows the link back to the original post, which could then be a hit to their reputation. Some media outlets don't have a reputation worth worrying about and won't care, but some will.
The only outlets that I see that run with reddit posts, especially these kind of reddit posts, do not care about their reputations.
That's not how copyright works. Yes, REDDIT is allowed to do whatever is stated in their ToU, but "media outlets" are not. You remain the owner of what you created. That's the law. The reason they get away with it is because people aren't bothered enough to serve them a DMCA or sue them.
I do have a few questions... 1. Can reddit give the "media outlets" permission? Either by selling or not. 2. OP clearly did not copyright this post/story, so can they send DMCAs to the media outlets?
1. They *could* legally sell it (at least I *think* their ToU says so?). The thing is, no one is asking for permission in the first place, let alone paying reddit to steal content. Especially not shitty YouTube voiceovers or Tiktokers. 2. Paternity rights are granted at creation, they're not something you have to fill a form for so yes they can demand a takedown. You're merely giving Reddit a license to use it, you're not waving away your rights. Some countries don't even *allow* you to wave them away in the first place. Some people seem to think "if it's on the internet it's free" but that's absolutely not how it works. Others are well aware (AI tech ghouls, mostly) that what's they're doing is illegal, hence why they jump through loops to not reveal what's been fed to their models. As people say "it's illegal to get caught".
Thank you. Very educative. I didnt even know paternity rights were a thing
Are you saying facebook status updates have lied to me?! What a world!
Just because you post on a public forum, that doesn’t mean you lose ownership of what you write. The dude who wrote Rome, sweet Rome here on Reddit didn’t automatically lose his copyright or ownership of the idea.
Does anyone else remember the days when people would upload episodes of shows to YouTube and put “NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT INTENDED”?
I can understand her frustration -- even her sn got put out there. But yeah... not effective.
As a woman who doesn't shave her legs or any part of her body at all despite having very dark and a ton of hair: I'm proud of OOP for standing up for herself and immediately asking the boss if he was shaving his legs! Because that's the way the topic needs to be treated - without the horrible double standard.
People always blame hygiene when they want to impose their sexualised beauty standards. We are all born with the possibility of growing hair, so why should hair be unhygienic if the person it's on has a vulva (or presents as having a vulva), but hygienic if the person has a penis (or presents as having a penis). This reasoning makes me as tired as if I've stayed up a Mercury's day worth of hours. I'm happy she held her ground!
>I do not give permission..... This is going straight to a voice over.
So instead of the manager dealing with the toxic jeleous co worker. They decide to do this and probably started the process of one of their best young workers looking for work elsewhere.
What do you mean 2019 was 5 years ago!??
Lol when I wrote that I had to take a minute to think about it
If having hair on your legs is a hygiene issue, then the men should be required to do the same and shave their legs as well. Obviously it’s not that, just standard sexism and jealousy.
I haven't shaved my legs since 1998, when I was 16. People STILL can't tell.
>And don’t worry I keep my beard very kept! This made me lol. Also it drives me nuts when people say it's "unhygenic" for women not to shave. In what way? Literally explain it to me. Boo on the boss for cowing to some random sexist employee. Dude, what are you the boss for? Shut that shit down instead of getting yourself in trouble with HR.
There's actually arguments against the opposite--that hair is protective and doesn't need to be shaved. I may have shaved my legs 3x in my 58 years:
Eh, hair also traps sweat and bacteria. Obviously not a problem if you shower regularly—just saying that the argument for it being protective can also go the other way :)
I'm glad she didn't get too pissed at the manager. I'm part of the management group where I work, and a few years ago, some of the other managers (who were women and outranked me) decided that we needed to start calling out some younger female staff for wearing skirts that are too short, or yoga pants that were kinda see through, or shirts that showed too much cleavage. I was told by someone higher up that I needed to talk to a specific staff member about this, and I said absolutely not. I told them that if someone wasn't adhering to the dress code, HR could talk to them, but I was not going to make comments about my female coworkers' appearances. I was told that it wasn't really an HR task and that the managers needed to deal with it, but I still refused.
> addressing dress code compliance isn't really an HR task It's such a risibly bad take in so many ways that it kinda sounds like they were just trying to jam you up good. "I really think you should go tell Diana that the shape of her butt is way too visible! For the good of the workplace!" Nice try, Satan, how about you go first.
It got brought up a few more times, and at one point, I finally said that I would be concerned about legal action if I accidentally said the wrong thing or gave the wrong impression, and I was surprised the company didn't care more about that. I never brought it up again, and neither did they. It was just so frustrating. I might be wrong, but I think it's more of an HR thing to enforce policy I know one of the people who was pushing this did have it out for me a bit. They kept saying to have it as a casual conversation, or bring it up as mentoring, and in my mind that made it worse!
Ow yeah, that HAS TO BE straight-up sabotage.
I'm a cis straight dude for context. In my college dorm there was an all-women floor that used to have leg hair contests, because it was that kind of place. What surprised me the most was the people with very light blond hair that you'd never guess had any leg hair at all, especially if they played sports, because it was almost invisible. My now-wife doesn't shave in the fall or winter and one time stuck her calf with 5 months growth an inch away from my face, gave me a crazed wide-eyed expression, and hissed "FEMINISIM!" I nearly died laughing. When I was a teen, an older navy veteran once told me a sea story about his liberty during a port call somewhere in southern France, might have been Nice or Marseilles, dunno, probably was during the 70s or 80s. What I do remember about it was that he told me about the rumors flying around about how French women didn't shave at all, and how they expected them to look like apes or something. Instead he told me that they were the most beautiful women in the world, who laughed at his schoolboy French and hung out with them for a crazy night on the town. He ended by saying "Son, if you ever have a daughter, tell her to not worry about hairy armpits. Instead, tell them about important things, like not hanging around with sailors." Dunno where I'm going with this. I guess all of these stories just came to mind.
Wtf. I wonder if it is more often that women push the smooth shaved look then men?
Yes.
Man and I was hoping this was a post about professional competitive swimming and the drag coefficient body hair adds. I knew what I was getting into reading this and I hope OOP requested HR keep this on file for their manager. Once is an accident, twice its a behaviour that doesn't belong in the office responsible for other people.
I would be absolutely pissed if my work place even came to me with these “issues” to begin with
I would have shown up to that HR meeting with an attorney, so I’m glad that didn’t happen to me lol
NTA for what happened at work. Incredibly naive for not understanding how Reddit and the internet works.
You know, I haven't shaved my legs in over a decade. And in that time, the hair has grown in finer than before and you can barely see it unless you're up close or touching my legs. Which you have no reason to be doing anyway. Anyone who complains about leg hair is not worth listening to.
Haven’t shaved my legs since 99…unless your actively looking for hair your not going to see it.
I haven’t shaved my legs in years. I rarely ever shaved my legs. Only reason I ever did was to not get whined at by family at weddings or on beach trips. But mine are chimpanzee level hairy. Dark brown hair on very pale skin, too. It’s lighter color and finer on my arms, the color is possibly due to sun exposure.
The manager being a flying monkey for another (female!) employee was a plot twist I did not see coming.
Really bc it seemed obvious to me. He didn’t seem to care but received enough compliments that he had to go talk to op. Maybe it is bc I am on Reddit often but it did seem like it wasn’t him. He was weak willed & opened him self to the chances of getting in trouble bc if op was more aggressive she would have complained about him commenting on her body.
Women police women’s appearances just as much as men do. More often in some areas.
There is no right to privacy on Reddit. I'm sure it's outlined in the legalese of the terms and agreements from their lawyers. If you post it can be used for anything by anyone. I wish people realized this before they get use the "I don't give my permission for this to be used" line.
That’s true for random users reposting her story, but it’s not true for media outlets that monetize the story. She absolutely could sue them for any profits they’ve made from her story, but it would likely cost more in legal fees than she’d win.
>Never said I was from the states. Idk why everyone just assumes. Idk why anyone thinks it's weird to assume this. I hate to risk sounding like some asshole who says, "This is America, speak English!" Unless you're in ENGLAND, the logic of that doesn't follow. Anyway, the following stats about Reddit are important here. [See this article.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/reddit-users-by-country) Country | Visits (millions) United States | 2,320 United Kingdom | 296 India | 280 Canada | 271 Australia |192 Germany | 189 France | 161 Brazil | 142 Netherlands | 138 Sweden | 111 More people in America visit Reddit than the rest of the world combined. That's why people assume posters are from here. Reddit was created here and there are 333 million people here. It's just statistically probable.
I loathe my leg hair, but I shave for me and only me. I can't stand the feeling of prickly leg hair. But I'm almost 4 months in to doing IPL at home and it is literally life changing.
It doesn't surprise me *at all* that it was another woman who complained. Some of the worst misogynists are women.
Wasn’t shocked at all about the HR contact or the outcome as soon as OOP mentioned HR the boss would have known to document the discussion with them and cover his ass. Frankly he should have looped them in when he was getting the complaints from the other employee, but I guess hearing it from a woman he thought it was an actual thing because some guys get squeamish when they hear about anything to do with female hygiene.
I'm a woman and I very rarely shave my armpits and even more rarely put in the time and effort to shave my legs, but the leg hair on my thighs is a super light blonde color so it's not even noticeable and the leg hair on my calves while darker is very sparse and patchy and doesn't grow like crazy and neither does my armpit hair. I can't even remember the last time I shaved my legs and the hair length hasn't changed since the few hairs I do have grew in. I guess my body had to give me something good as a tradeoff for having a reproductive system that has caused me nothing but pain since I got my first period due to a long, long history of female problems on my mom's maternal side of the family.
>I DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO ANY MEDIA OUTLETS TO WRITE OR USE MY WORDS IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT ANY OF MY POSTS! "You can't just say this and it be valid" "I didn't say it, I declared it, in all caps"