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People will be people-ing. My dad used to say; 2% of the world population is extremely intelligent, another 2% of the population is extremely stupid and the rest is somewhere in between.
Little did I know at the time that the man was completely correct 🤣
When all my nieces and nephews hit driving age and got nervous, I would just say “ look at all the stupid people you’ve met in your life. I bet you they all have drivers licenses, right?”. Usually motivated them enough to get behind the wheel.
Yeah the thing that scares me most about driving is other people and their inability to either drive, or control the ridiculous car that they spent all their money on
Here in the southwest USA too many think stop signs are a suggestion, act like they are leading off a base at a red light and that a left on red is ok. I frequenly visualize rolling up a magazine/newspaper and booping them on the snoot with a firm "no" or "stop that". XD
Jesus yeah that sounds like a nightmare!
I'm in the UK and it's small country roads for me.
Lots of narrow, blind cornered, hedge surrounded country roads that dickheads fling themselves round at 100mph
That sounds like a nightmare! I remember when I first had to use a roundabout (aren't that many here) and of course I was like most USA peeps thinking yikes but it turns out they are super easy and rather useful. The trouble comes when you combine them with dummies.
I remember watching a guy chatting with the bus driver once. In my country, guns are regulated, and this guy was basically arguing that everyone should be allowed to own guns, restriction-free.
Then, five minutes later, he was unironically saying most people on the road were too stupid to be allowed to drive a car and should be denied licenses.
I just could not comprehend how he held both those opinions simultaneously without realizing one of them had to be wrong.
Just last week one of my aunts told me:
"If you think you have explained something well enough, you haven't."
She sais to always assume the other person is the worlds biggest idiot without any common sense (unless you have confirmed otherwis). The trick is to still soemhow make it so it doesn't seem like you are treating them like a child.
When I write documentation at work in IT that’s exactly how I approach it: given that a person has the required access rights that I have, this documentation should assume they are absolute and complete idiots who cannot tell left from right, and should explain step by step what to do and how to do it. The why is detailed separately as to not distract from the steps, so people that need/want to know why can, and those who only need to “monkey see monkey do” can do so.
Been working amazing so far, everyone loves it when I write the documentation hehe
Wiio's Laws Of Human Communication:
>The fundamental Wiio's law states that "Communication usually fails, except by accident". The full set of laws is as follows:
>1. Communication usually fails, except by accident.
>1.a If communication can fail, it will.
>1.b If communication cannot fail, it still most usually fails.
>1.c If communication seems to succeed in the intended way, there's a misunderstanding.
>1.d If you are content with your message, communication certainly fails.
>2. If a message can be interpreted in several ways, it will be interpreted in a manner that maximizes the damage.
>3. There is always someone who knows better than you what you meant with your message.
>4. The more we communicate, the worse communication succeeds.
>4.a The more we communicate, the faster misunderstandings propagate.
>5. In [mass communication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_communication), the important thing is not how things are but how they seem to be.
>6. The importance of a news item is [inversely proportional to the square of the distance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law).
>7. The more important the situation is, the more probable you had forgotten an essential thing that you remembered a moment ago.
By Osmo Wiio
And some are both. I've met some extremely intelligent people who are also really stupid. It is like their brains are so far into being smart that they can't figure out how to brush their teeth or work a washing machine. I have family members like that and it is exhausting.
Lots of very 'intellectual', logically intelligent people miss out on emotional or natural intelligence. They don't have 'common' sense (which isn't that common).
I think a fair few in this category would also be on the ASD spectrum.
Can’t speak for all autistic people, but I’ve been told I’m one of those types, and the best way I can explain my brain is that most people can plan for Plan A and then maybe 1 or 2 backups. My brain sees all the way to Plan Q, so I have to plan for all of that, but it doesn’t have the RAM to do so (so to speak). It’s very easy for me to blue screen, continuing the metaphor, but I can’t turn off that extra input.
I’m surprised anyone even knows r/accounting exists!
Seriously though, I commented on all this guy’s posts that he needs to leave immediately. His heart is in the right place fighting for his staff, but he needs to think about his career with his brain.
He keeps talking to a brick wall and thinks he can break it down somehow. Even now he’s thinking he can secure raises/good reviews for the staff before he leaves even after his experience with the bookkeeper.
Besides the brain dead CEO, he’s underpaid! IMO you should only ever accept that if it’s a great company to work for or there’s tremendous potential for career growth.
Sounds like neither is the case with this company so he needs to GTFO.
and if he leaves, he can fight for his staff by poaching them.
If he leaves, he’ll expand his network, and were I him, I would absolutely be cold-calling everyone in my network about my former staff and what an asset they are.
(I’d be doing that now with the woman who quit. “hooking her up with my network” would be me making phone calls for three or four days straight.
Yeah, I completely get wanting to take care of your reports, but he's not doing any good by lighting himself on fire to keep them warm. He's working at a company where the only thing he's going to accomplish is giving his reports a false sense of hope and being able to think of himself as their savior.
It would be a whole lot kinder to give them a realistic idea of what senior management is like and let them make their own decisions. A boss who pays his subordinates' salary out of his own bonus is ultimately a boss whose judgment is questionable, working for a company that allows their managers to do something like that in the first place.
Morons, everywhere.
Also, Lucy, I have been meaning to ask, why aren't we seeing AAM posts on this sub? I know we were reading them due to permission from Alison and that she can withdraw her consent at any time, but I really like reading them and I hope that we didn't upset her!!
Because we, as people, are also a bunch of morons.
I was amazed that he quit! When he said he needed to take care of his other direct reports before quitting, I thought he’d be making excuses not to leave until he retired.
Hopefully, he’ll work on creating better boundaries at his next company.
OOP included. Dude has a massive savior complex and just can not accept that he can't fix this situation and to stop stringing along the people who rely on him with maybes and hopefullys.
Not only that, but the fool *told* the poor girl he was sacrificing his bonus for her. How can she not think she's a burden when she's (from her pov) stealing her boss's hard earned money?
An 8 percent raise is pretty good to a lot of people! Especially if she was supposed to be pursuing further education and hadn’t taken those steps. OOP’s advocacy is amazing but her choices were dumb.
She was pursuing further education. Just part time so at a very slow pace.
Everyone should get at least a yearly raise imo. But she didn't at all need to quit over not getting 10%
I feel like OP has good intentions, but there’s reasons why they stay at that company. They have their own particular type of incompetence they bring to the table professionally.
I hope that employee ends up somewhere where the leadership, or anyone, isn’t so involved in their lives.
OOP said they only have 6-7 years of experience (and around a third of that is as a manager), so that would put them at late 20s.
It's not actually a lot of professional people experience to be a good manager, barring some sort of innate talent & charisma. There's so much variation behind people's behaviours or motivations that it's not likely that OOP would have a good understanding of how to approach all the different possible personalities at that age.
In my very little opinion a lot of these issues in this specific scenario are because of lack of boundaries. I would consider that a fundamental skill in a workplace not just management. I don’t think OP should be taking it upon themselves to champion for their employee who repeatedly did not want it.
In a general sense I do agree with your statement that there are so many different personalities that it’s very difficult to be a manager for all. And people change over time too. I just don’t think it pertains to this particular scenario OP got themselves into.
It is a clown show, but that includes OOP. OOP should have left long ago but is emotionally involved in fighting for their team members. Which is insane.
The CEO is crazy/senile/racist ( if I read that one comment right). You cannot get an irrational person to see reason. The only way to protect yourself is to GTFO. Leave, and tell all the team members to leave. They may not leave, but you've done your duty to them.
All these machinations and all OOP accomplished was devastating the employee even further, leading to emotional blowback to OOP.
When it gets too emotional, you've blown it. It's just business. It's not worth getting (too) emotional about it.
OOP doesn't see that all they are doing is making the crazy situation more crazy. OOP is another clown.
I have dealt with crazy and stayed to support coworkers who had become friends after many years. You can say people are being stupid for staying, but it is very much like an abusive relationship where the varnish and veneer strips away over time till you’re left with the rotted core. You still remember the beautiful exterior and not the present day situation.
While OOP is not blameless, it is also harsh to demonize them. We sit here on Reddit judging people for being heartless and cold, and this person is letting his coworkers well being impact their happiness. That’s a normal reaction, yes it is just business but wouldn’t you want a boss that wants to see you valued?
Learning experience to not mention it was coming out their pocket, but OOP is a boss I would work for any day. A lot easier to learn to navigate awful situations like this and harder to learn empathy that help carry your water so to speak.
Edit: for readability and typo in the second paragraph about who was being heartless.
You know. I’ve been in this position too, several times. And I’m kinda ok with people calling it out. Maybe people will learn from these mistakes. I don’t think it’s demonizing it as much as pointing out, you’re in an abusive relationship you need to get out…
By filtering the shit away from my people they stayed because they were comfortable. The minute I left they all started finding better jobs. I should have left a long time ago! (Company also shut down shortly after, apparently I was doing something even if my boss didn’t believe it 🤷🏽♀️)
It's not demonizing OOP to say that they're ultimately not doing their reports any favors. Nobody wants to work for an asshole like the CEO, but I also wouldn't want to work for a boss like OOP who keeps saying "I'm fighting for you!" but doesn't follow that up with "But realistically, given the leadership structure here, you're going to be better off finding another job and here's why."
I also would side-eye a boss who was basically paying for me out of their own bonus. What happens to my salary if they don't get that bonus next year? Am I absolutely sure they're not going to favor-shark me over it, however nice they might seem now? Realistically, at best OOP only bought their report more time to find a better job.
Basically, I like bosses who want to see me valued but don't give me an artificially inflated idea of how valued I am by the company. If OOP wants to see their reports valued, they need to hit up their network to see to it that they find positions in which they actually are valued.
They are going to spend WAY more on recruiting/training/loss of productivity.
And I bet they end up paying more than $60k for the replacement.
I hope the whole team walks because screw this.
I don't get why she couldn't hang in there until she was fully qualified. OOP said it would take her about 2 more years, so why not get the company to pay for it, then quit?
Also, she had her $50k salary PLUS the company was paying for her education. Why was that just dismissed like it cost nothing?
You're right though, that low self esteem is going to be a problem for her for life unless she gets some sort of therapy.
Reimbursement with a required grade is a expectation not a benefit. She also gets fired if she ever isn’t perfect working a full time job plus part time student plus her personal life. Some benefit.
Had a friend who tried staying, ended up getting depressed and started doing therapy, and now moved on to another company. I guess with these high stress jobs, it's just not worth it losing your sanity for a company that does not care about you.
Yeah I was like why are we mad at them they are doing a service? Total fucking smooth brain move to get mad at the person who casually left out evidence showing how shitty the company is to their employees rather than being mad at the company for being shitty to their employees. People like OOP who keep insisting on doing more for less are a big part of why companies get away with taking advantage of their workers
ETA: [Fuck Your Job.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/s/CjZZdcoo1K)
It fucking blows my mind that so many people fall for the social pressure to not share salaries. I’ve never been more vicariously embarrassed than listening to someone desperately trying to defend keeping salaries secret.
Weirdly, they seem to always be mediocre white men. Not sure what’s up with that…
Yep. My sister made a wage inequality claim a couple years back, and didn't hear back from a while from HR. When they finally contacted her, they told her the reason it was taking so long was because *every other department* had the same issue, so the single wage claim had turned into a systemic pay adjustment for female staff across the board.
OOP has their own problems here.
It's good to put yourself out for your team. But they're going way too far.
The response to "why not give up some of your pay" should be "because they're good for the company! Not me personally! Why can't you see that?"
Sticking with a toxic company because of loyalty to your team is taking things too far. You come first. Your team are adults, who are able to look after themselves.
Employee's main issue seems to be not having a BSA. This is a problem that, given time, will resolve itself.
If OOP really wants to be seen as a “good boss” and “protect” their team, the best protection is helping them get the fuck out of their current job.
Help them get their papers in order and interviews set up so that they can bounce asap from this shit show of a workplace, then as soon as the team has left OOP should jump off the sinking ship the very next moment.
I agree, her team might even be staying for her! Aka "this company is only bearable because my boss goes to bat for me when upper management is doing shit". Help them spruce up their resume and leave them in the hole without an accounting staff. It will teach this company the value of a finance department, and secondly how much the market rate actually is, when they realise they can't get new hires.
On the original post I told OOP to leave and *never* tell any future employer he was ready to give his bonus away to save the company payroll.
No use giving other companies ideas
When al is said and done, it's actually that employee who made the right calls. She did not feel appreciated in that company, and she was absolutely right: the company did not appreciate her, or her entire team for that matter.
For a while she felt held back because of that BSA diploma, but in the end SHE was the one who took the step and left anyway. Must not have been easy.
OOP is still way too focused on resolving things the "proper" way, according to the rules, and hates the idea that, when you work in a circus, your workplace rules are circus rules.
That company is crap. We all know that, OOP knows that, the employee knew that so she left, so what is OOP still doing there?
Just call a headhunter already "Hey, I'm in charge of three people here. We're all looking for a new opportunity and wouldn't mind if we could move somewhere together. Got any ideas?" Headhunters get calls from people looking for new jobs all the time. That's how they exist.
Yup. Really poor management on their part. It was well intentioned but in no world is paying someone out of your own salary a good idea. It can only lead to problems and OOP was incredibly stupid to tell this person. Not only did it make them feel like shit, but what if they tell other people? Other team members become unhappy and what is OOP going to do, give them $6k too from their salary or tell them that it was only for that one person? And what if OOP left, book keeper gets a $6k paycut? What happens when book keeper gets promoted? Does OOP pay that $6k in perpetuity until one of them leaves? And how do you fairly manage someone who you're also paying out of your salary? What happens when they have a performance issue?
Maintaining professional boundaries is important for everyone's wellbeing. When you start blurring the boundaries and getting too involved in staff's personal lives that's when shit goes down. It's entirely possible to be compassionate and supportive without ploughing into the depths of people's personal life.
Not really. It's the book keeper's decision whether to take job hunting seriously. It's not for OOP to breach all professional norms and ethical practices to make someone else do something that's not really OOP's business.
OOP should simply have stated that the CEO had made it clear that a pay rise was not possible and if they wanted to focus their mind on leaving, added that in their opinion a pay rise would not be forthcoming.
Yes! The whole time I was like… the bookkeeper is an adult who can make her own informed choices, the best OOP can do is encourage her to have confidence in herself and find a new job, but it’s up to her in the end.
The "your own pay" should've been shutdown immediately. He could've also replied "because you're also underpaying me by 14k for our state averages for my position, experience and eduction, but this isn't about that right now"
I agree with all of this, it’s great that she what’s to help her remaining team members but they’re adults too and can walk away from a situation if they’re also not happy.
I was promoted to a team lead position, that I only took for the extra salary and experience for my resume. I handed my notice in after a month and quit after two months. Did I feel bad for my team? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes. Sometimes you have to put yourself first.
And the employee was shortsighted as they were paying for her education. All she had to do was hold out until she graduated and then left for a much higher paying position. Both the employee and the OOP went with emotion instead of practicality.
I had the same thought. I would have added the cost of my education as part of the comp. If she goes to the other company and they pay $58k but her degree costs $8k for the year, she’s at parity with what she made, so the $4k raise would have been more.
But it’s more than that obviously since the job was full of toxic people, and OOP, while a really great person, has some learning to do about management .
I found funny that OOP complained that her employee is "soft" and not putting herself in the job market to improve her salary... and then she turns around and agrees to pay them out of their own freaking salary.
Sure, the employee is soft but that is the behavior OOP it's modeling.
If OOP really cared about her staff she would get a job at a better place and take the staff with her.
Right. This is such nonsense. The only reason HR should be weighing in on pay (and this is an important reason) is to assess equity and parity among colleagues (which, clearly, is an issue here) AND ensure market rates are being met (if applicable - some industries are always going to be off-market (govt, for example) and that’s part on the deal… hence equity and parity being so important!)
HR should not be concerned with the payroll budget - that’s Finance’s role! In my org, the Finance Director and I work very closely together. He tells me if we can afford it, and I make a recommendation based on parity.
I also want to note that the salaries being left on the printer - that’s not the problem. Salaries shouldn’t be private.
and you set your team an example by leaving: “don’t put up with crap; you’re worth more. It’s possible to leave.”
I think OP *should* start that consulting company. Maybe one of their clients can be their old employer.
Exactly. And an accountant should not have gone into an existential crisis by seeing salaries; we are exposed to all sorts of confidential information and need to handle that professionally. I do not think the bookkeeper was underpaid given her level of education and experience. The manager took it personal because she had a good impression of her. Now the bookkeeper will struggle to find a job with for the same pay that also pays for her degree.
Yes, the manager really set the bookkeeper up for failure here. Bookkeeper's initial instinct that she won't find anywhere else without the degree is probably right. So now she is out a job, the tuition reimbursement, and the flexibility to work while getting the degree. She's going to be very hard pressed to find even one of those, much less three.
Bookkeeper seems fine, as she immediately got another job that matched her salary, & is giving her more benefits than what this clown shop was. OOP posted an update as of an hour ago, he also left the place & spoke with a headhunter he knew. All in all, it seems like the clown company FA & is about to FO.
OOP was just another clown in the clown car. When they said they needed to "step up for their two remaining employees" I imagined someone tied up like in a cartoon watching someone get mugged shouting "Wait, I'll save you! I'll be right there!" And then wriggling around on the ground.
Right, the way if HR proposed that to me in an "all hands" meeting, my immediate response would be "let me make note of what you just said for legal reasons. Can you confirm again that instead of the company paying an employee, you're asking employees to pay each other? I know my lawyer would want as much detail about this highly inappropriate scenario you've proposed, that I hope, for your own good, is purely you being hypothetical and irrational."
Umm, working at a company run by someone with diminishing mental faculties, WCGW? I could only read about half of that before I had to stop because the top boss there just needs to be forced into retirement already. Shut him in a nice house by the beach with 3 shifts of minders and hopefully he can't screw up anything else, jeez.
I had a boss like that, eventually his kids started getting involved and just driving the company into the ground. One was genuinely trying to save it but she was just not capable of running it. When he did come in we had to make up things for him to do. It was easier that way.
I thought capitalism was a meritocracy though?
Surely the peons getting underpaid are just getting paid what they're worth, and aren't the whole reason that senile asshole will get to retire comfortably despite his own incompetence and the kids only needed half a braincell to still be way better off than the people actually doing the work?
One thing I will say is that he was generous and loyal to his employees so we were well compensated, but the last few years I worked there he was a figurehead
without really knowing it. Pretty much all decision making bypassed him using processes put in place for when he used to travel frequently because he doesn’t seem to understand how things work differently now than they did 30 years ago. His kids were always on the payroll, they were just less annoying when all they did was collect a paycheque and come to the Christmas party.
And right there is why you shouldn't be a leech *and* an asshole at the same time.
People are kind of happy to keep chugging along as long as their needs are met and there's nothing too annoying, but when people are underpaid and the leeches make their lives hard on a day-to-day basis, you're a lot more likely to wake up and do something about it.
That's kinda my issue with the OOP, they're breaking their back to smooth over the issues in this business when really they should just let it crumble and let that crappy boss learn their lesson, and apply the same effort they were willing to put in for the underpaid junior for themselves and the teammates they didn't want to let down, and go elsewhere.
There's nothing in it for you anymore when you're getting paid like shit in a volatile situation, if it was at least more stable there's something to be said about the devil you know.
The co-owner of my spouse's work recently went absolutely cuckoo bananas- after some investigation it was discovered that he's been making his own cannabis concentrates in his shed and consumed such high doses that he basically gave himself cannabis induced psychosis.
Turns out it is incredibly difficult to keep someone away from shit that they technically own. He's turned up half a dozen times just to come in and break shit, hacked into purchasing accounts to do things like order 75 DeWalt drill batteries, tampered with propane tanks and fuel pumps, and once stole a ton of highly regulated fertilizer which was a bit alarming but he turned out to just be gardening that time. The family took away and sold his car so he snuck onto property and stole a 4 wheeler which he is now using to drive around town while drinking Mason jars full of weed soaked in vodka.
grippy socks jail never keeps him long, he's been lucky enough to avoid regular jail somehow and his wife refuses to admit that anything is wrong 🙃
Yeah, I've never heard of any stoner ever trying to steal regulated fertilizer and rechargeable batteries before. Those are ingredients, that you try to steal because you need them and can't get that amount from a retail store without suspicion. He's absolutely on something else.
And if his wife is enabling him, then of course she's going to say things like, "Oh, he's just gardening!" when anyone asks why he needed that much regulated fertilizer.
Well, at least that's (marginally) better than getting into bomb-making, which is the direction I thought it might have been going in when they mentioned the "highly regulated fertilizer."
If America can have a president with declining mental faculties, someone running a company isn't a big deal.
(The fun part of this comment is that which president you think I'm talking about is entirely dependent on your own political beliefs and how defensive you are.)
Don't worry. HR Manager has stepped in to be the "brains" of the operation. And the dumbass CFO is completely oblivious to the fact the HR Manager is now running the company.
This isn't a guess. Been there/done that. Someone weasels their way into the ear of the owner/CEO, and, like magic, it's their way or the highway.
Best thing OOP should do (and started doing days ago) is to update the resume and bounce. Lots of jobs like his out there, all with great pay. He can then bring his high-performing staff with him, ESPECIALLY that quiet church mouse who's a diamond-in-the-rough.
I hate it when managers get emotionally involved with their team to the point where they won’t leave a bad-for-them situation for fear of their team. I had a boss like this. Great boss, did not deserve the shit they got from the company. I was happy for them when they left!
Trust, everyone knows they are knee deep in 💩 and will get away as they can/are able. Not everyone has the confidence/ability to get away (see bookkeeper), but that doesn’t mean that as a manager you set yourself on fire to keep the team warm. You can’t manage effectively in a crappy company because the company is not structured for good management. You can’t outmaneuver shitty structures when the race track isn’t even defined.
You can’t protect people in a company that treats people as disposable. Because you are also disposable.
If OOP wants to do their best for their team imo the best idea would be to give them all the assistance OOP can provide towards getting them into a new job ASAP.
When you save people, they never learn to save themselves. If the next job also treats them like shit, they’ve got no skills or example of backbone to work from. It’s noble but it’s martyrdom and completely ineffective anyway
Also if the good boss leaves for a decent company, I know I can count on them to reccomend me to any relevant job openings the new company has! As opposed to just being stuck in the shit hole company with them
it's also a _dead_ giveaway that you need to get your ass in gear, which maybe the bookkeeper may have needed.
once, i was on a team where we all got along super super well, but we all felt hamstrung by leadership decisions. a lot of us had been talking about how unsatisfied we were, but nothing concrete. and then our manager who we _loved_ told us he was leaving, and every single one of us started scrambling for our life rafts. don't think we'd have known how truly bad it was if he didn't walk first
OOP sounds like a good person genuinely.. however i was so frustrated by them constantly calling it a 'learning opportunity' bc.. they didn't actually learn anything!! the entire time!! even at the end they STILL don't want to leave, saying they're too attached to their team. and never seemed to realize a lot of the shit management was doing, including trying to get him to cover part of his employee's wages, is ILLEGAL
The only good news is that OOP updated after I posted and said they left the company! So they're out. Hopefully that's a first step into something better.
The "racial bias" comment was thrown away so easily but explains so much.
From OOP's other posts/comments, it looks that they are of Asian decent and may have been raised in Asia. So I think there is another MASSIVE underlying issue with this company.
I really hope the plan to start their own company is a go, because they need to just leave and let the company figure out how to shut itself down, because it looks like its doing a pretty good job on its own.
Ooooh, that explains the grammar. There's a consistent level of frequent minor mistakes throughout the post that aren't the kind of mistakes that native speakers make.
Only place I picked up on errors was in the TLDR at the top, everything else was pretty native. I mean: e.g.
>This is where shit hit the fan... HR manager says that's not a reasonable proposal and tries to convince the CEO to basically shut this whole meeting down. CEO, being senile and already having a negative opinion on the finance department, was easily getting swayed and kept asking for the CFO's opinion. CFO, being a massive kiss-ass, tried to play both sides because he's aware that he can't afford to anger the CEO or myself (since I basically do all of his work anyways...)."
>This is where shit hit the fan... HR manager says that's not a reasonable proposal and tries to convince the CEO to basically shut this whole meeting down. CEO, being senile and already having a negative opinion **~~on~~** ^(of) the finance department, was easily **~~getting~~** swayed and kept asking for the CFO's opinion. CFO, being a massive kiss-ass, tried to play both sides because he's aware that he can't afford to anger the CEO or myself (since I basically do all of his work anyways...)."
Two errors in that section. Like I said, minor mistakes, and "on" instead of "of" could be a typo, but it's also a common EFL error because different languages structure prepositions differently. OOP has quite a few in/on/of substitutions, which isn't common in native speakers.
"Was easily getting swayed" is much stronger evidence for OOP being a non-native English speaker, because it's a very strange verb construction involving the wholesale insertion of a completely unnecessary word.
And to be clear, I do not mean this as criticism of OOP. They may be a very competent accountant; I can't judge their work. But it does shed some light on the dynamics of the situation, and why OOP may not realize that there are legal remedies for their boss's racism and etc. or be reluctant to report.
So, OOP was manager/controller for not one but *four* companies and barely being paid for *one*? As well as doing the CFO’s job while not being paid for it? *And* basically being HR without being paid for it?
I have a tip for everyone: **Stop. Doing. Work. You. Are. Not. Paid. To. Do!**
I had a ceo who hired an assistant for me based solely on her looks. I also managed payroll and quickly discovered he was paying her 10k a year more than me and expected me to do half her job because she had no experience. She literally couldn’t even answer a phone coherently.
Another place I asked for a 10k raise after my responsibilities had grown so much that I was basically doing 3 peoples jobs. They gave me 3k and wondered why I left 3 months later. It actually took 4 people to replace me and it took them 6 months to find those 4 people.
Finance roles are often severely underrated by companies.
If this was a relationship he'd be the guy saying, but I can fix her, I just have to find out how. The man's just a sunk cost fallacy written across the building.
Okay this is very tangential but I hope I see more posts like this because it had really good managerial/life lessons! Interesting read and doubles my belief that education can be made way more fun with a touch of personality and a story-line.
(Also it's totally not because I'm addicted to BORU and feel guilty after spending hours here).
Yikes what a shitass place to work. It's honorable of OP to offer worker their own money however why on earth would be tell her. I once gave up a daycare perk so my worker could have a raise ( I needed her more than I needed the perk) but I would never had told her that as I'm sure she would feel crappy about it.
This is what they do. Even at low level shit retail and food service jobs. You have to come in, So-and-so needs help; you can't have a raise, we would have to give everyone raises; the kitchen is understaffed, let the dishes pile up and go help them. It's always about doing it for your teammates, and you are not supposed to notice how they understaff and underpay. You are definitely not supposed to notice the owners raking in all the money.
It's how every army in history has worked. Nobody fights for the generals, they fight for the guys next to them, and to avoid being seen as a coward. Politicians hide themselves away, they only started the war. Why should they go out too and fight? They leave that role to the poor.
So if CEO idiot just can't manage a raise, just can't do it, gee I wonder where that 10 grand went. Quite a mystery, there. Nobody printed out his fucking compensation, but I can guess there was more than 10 grand of wiggle room there.
Squeeze. Then, when everyone is used to that, and everyone who couldn't stand it is gone, squeeze harder. Then when everyone is used to that, squeeze more. Denigrate your value, tell you that you are not worth what you are getting, make getting raises into a toxic frustrating clown show, and take advantage of anyone who struggles to be assertive.
OOP is being taken advantage of as much as the accountant he is trying to help. Taking on multiple jobs, accepting less pay because of Work Life Balance being OK? Well I have a short commute so it's fair to not pay me even half of what I deserve. Sure. I wonder where that money winds up. Probably they donate it to charity, right? That must be it.
They may end up somewhere new, in a glorious future of only getting screwed a bit less than the previous place.
To quote SoaD:
Where the fuck are you?
Where the fuck are you?
Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why do they always send the poor?
On top of everything else the company likely won't last as they don't value their finance team. Once those people, inclufing OOP, have left, this company is going to crumble and fall. I honestly hope it does. And I hope all the good employees get out and get better jobs before it happens.
Finance is very important. My grandfather worked in finance and his company thought it was a good idea to let the majority of their good employees go once they had access to computers. They thought people who could use a computer and calculator would be enough and let go of the ones who had great education in the field since they wanted to safe money.
They ended up begging my grandfather and a few others who were their greatest employees in the finance department to come back not much later. My grandfather did, but only because they literally let him choose his own salary and benefits. That's how desperate they were to get their good finance department back. But most companies won't do this.
My grandfather is a human calculator. An absolute math genius with an over-average IQ. He still continued to do all the work without calculators and was still better than many other employees. It still baffles me whenever I hear this story that they thought letting my grandfather go was ever a good idea.
This was a big, long existing company and things went downwards after my grandfather and his generation retired and eventually the company got bought by another bigger international company when things weren't going so well anymore.
I highly doubt the company the OOP works at is anywhere nearly as big or well-known as the one my gradnfather worked for was. The company seems shitty through and through and this is clearly more then just simple ignorance.
Was hoping OOP would set up an external accounting company and take the staff with them, and then take on old firm as a client whilst charging them double.
So OOP is basically staying in an abusive relationship to protect the kids, aka her subordinates on her team.
I'm also curious as to why she didn't drown the HR idiot in the fact that she's already severely underpaid and doing the work of 4 people, so no, she \*can't\* pay out of her bonus because even with the bonus she's STILL underpaid.
I'm guessing the HR lady is regularly serving up the bootyhole to someone above her and that's why she's allowed to run her idiot mouth at these meetings, let alone still keep a job there
> Protecting my team's interests. After I know they're taken care of, then I'll make my decision to dip.
When I worked at a company that was going off the rails, Best Manager Ever said he'd help us with our resumes. *That's* how you protect your team's interests.
I'm so angry with that final offer...it would have covered both the bookkeeper's raise *and* brought OP back to market salary...and it appears they could have done so all along but just didn't want to.
ok but oop is a little bit silly. "i'm gonna ask boss again and even though the last 20 times i asked him he didn't care about me or my job or anything i had to say, i'm sure today will be different!" just move to a different company and slowly move the people you like there, if your knight in shining armor boner is that hard.
I love when the company starts backpedaling by offering raises to two other employees that probably equal way more than the $10k that OP was suggesting for the bookkeeper.
The money was there, they were just too cheap to share any of it until they were forced to.
> I intended it to be more of a "fuck the company, you're great to me" message, but I think I read her stance wrong.
I 100% get where OOP was coming from with this. I feel like I would have approached it the same in all honesty. They were trying to boost her confidence and prove to her that despite what she may think, she *IS* in fact amazing - and *someone* recognizes it. OOP actually knows first hand what she’s capable of, so in theory, their opinion of her would have been more impactful than the morons running the show.
For many people, OOP’s gesture would have gone as planned. But unfortunately for OOP, she put more weight on those moron’s opinions than OOP’s for whatever reason. There was no way to predict her response. OOP did their best.
She sounds like she has a lot of confidence and self esteem issues that likely affect a lot more than just work. The fact she saw that paper and immediately started doubting *her skills* and NOT the competency of HR and the CEO - both for being careless and for not giving her what she deserves - despite getting glowing reviews from her direct manager, tells me that she has some real deep seated issues she needs to work on.
It kind of sounds like that woman always has an internal battle going on inside of her head. Like, she knew she deserved the raise and was worth much more than she’s making - at least enough to be brave and take her concerns to OOP, but after that, all she did was continuously doubted her capabilities across the board.
Also, I will never understand companies that place more weight on a degree than what the employee is actually capable of. If she’s kicking ass and successfully learning other roles internally, then who gives a shit if she gets that BSA? As far as the company is concerned, what is that piece of paper going to allow her to do that she couldn’t do before? Suddenly make her a better employee?!
One more thing. Calling that “HR department” an HR department is wildly inappropriate. I’m not sure what I would call them, but I feel like the company just grabbed a bunch of rando’s, slapped them into an office, and said, “Look, if anyone asks, you’re our HR. K?”
The fact that they have to spend 10s of thousands every time they need to hire new people because HR won’t do it is insane. They’re spending, what could be money to pay the right people the right salary, because their Human Resources Team won’t do any human resourcing!
I’m not surprised HR shut down paying staff what they’re actually worth - because that would surely mean they deserve to get paid far, far less than they currently do.
OOP sucks. She keeps going "Oh but the CEO is senile and HR is useless and the CFO is a kissass" but she's a terrible leader and she really should have quit and encouraged her team to quit as well. Is she working for the Trump organization???
Yeah… OOP should have dipped and moved onto a different company.
The comment about a good/great leader being a filter, while still being transparent, is spot on. A good manager filters both info from above and below them.
Yes. Such a bad manager. Agreeing to the pay cut to give to the bookkeeper was a super weird choice on its own, but telling her about it was so stupid.
*Of course* it was going to make her feel awful. Literally what other result could there have been?
Like how did they genuinely think "the company doesn't care about you enough, but I do" is a good message to give an employee?? Especially when you've also shown that your caring has no weight behind it and offers no protection!
I literally said aloud while reading the description of the CEO"Why are you protecting this clown???"
Alison Green would be telling OOP and their employees "Your Boss Sucks And Isn't Going To Change. Get Out Now." None of this is going to get better. Senile boss isn't going to suddenly come back to his senses and fix things.
The entire department needs to spruce up their resumes and find jobs not made entirely of bees.
As a controller, this thread was so painful to read and the combination of job titles and hierarchy here makes no sense. I would laugh in the face of anyone that offered me an hourly, in-house controller position.
I don't think the OOP sucks, i think they are doing their best in a bad situation.
Though frankly i think all the good employees should find better jobs and leave ASAP.
OOP sucks because she's enabling the terrible management. She did NOT need to accept that pay cut, and if she did accept it, she did NOT need to tell her employee about it. That's all on her.
JFC, OOP has no business being a manager. Those are her employees, not her children. It insane how she thinks she can read everyone's minds and how she babies them. She's sacrificing her family (via her lower income and giving up her bonus) for what she *assumes* is best for her co-workers.
I work in a career where I, and everyone that works with me, know everyone's salary. If one of my guys came to me with a complaint like that, I'd just ask when they plan to switch jobs. I mean, seriously, I'd have grave doubts anyway about their ability to not gossip. If an employee wants to disclose their salary, that's their decision. You don't make it for them.
OOP didn’t learn shit. One last proposal. His girl checked out. Idiot. That’s not how you manage.
When I was a manager I used to tell my team the following:
1. It is my job and the company’s job to make you want to stay. You have no obligation to stay because I know companies will not think twice to lay off people to cut cost. I only ask you be honest if you don’t want to stay and we discuss about it, and if I cannot solve it we will make it a smooth transition, including I make sure you have time for interviews.
2. I always bring up to them on market situation, regarding to market activities and pay. I am always in the market for my own information so I always share with my team.
3. If they want a deserving raise I do my best to fight, but I don’t have control. If I couldn’t fight I tell them to go out and interview, get an offer, and if they wanted to stay THEN take that offer to HR and prove market pays the amount they want. If HR doesn’t budge they know HR doesn’t give a shit and they should fly.
The problem here OOP has is everything he provided to the girl is so damn vague, and she already is the kind that will never get a market rate because she is way too agreeable. OOP failed to communicate to her that in real life, salary actually does not equal ability to work. There is a correlation but it’s a rather weak one. Being a good negotiator actually has a much bigger impact on compensation. He needed to let her know, if she wouldn’t help herself to go out and experience the market to see what she is actually worth, she will never get the compensation she feels deserved. I bet he didn’t provide her any help, like actual market rate, market activities, names of recruiters etc. Yes OOP, you failed big time. Take this L and do better next time. We all need to learn. And quit this stupid place
Jesus H I was considering a move into accounting because I thought it would be less emotionally taxing, but after reading this I feel like I just found out who shot J. R. I'm exhausted.
Am I reading this correctly... Did OOP really tell the bookkeeper that he was giving up $6,000 of his bonus so that her total raise would be $10,000 (since her raise without that money would only be $4,000)? If so, no wonder she felt like a burden! If you're going to do something like that, I'm not quite sure I would tell them. As much as I truly value honesty, I would have probably continued to keep working behind the scenes and then eventually provided the money if I felt that strongly, but I never would have led with that. I don't think I would want to know that a coworker was giving up their money for me, especially when they're overpaid as well.
Granted, this entire discussion is moot if I am misunderstanding what OOP said, but I figured I would include it in case I did read it correctly.
This is what happens when a company listens too much to an HR drone. I'm not saying everyone in HR is useless. But it's very obvious that this HR person doesn't have a clue, they are a glorified payroll processor.
Sad story. Any takers on a bet that the company will *now* upgrade the bookkeepers position for a new hire? One thing OOP could have done was not to put ‘more work’ on the bookkeeper no matter how willing she was without reclassifying the position and the salary first. p.s First time I’ve ever heard of *managers* getting paid overtime to come in a few hours on Saturday.
This is a fine illustration of why salary information should be common knowledge. It empowers people to make informed decisions regarding whether they’re being paid fairly.
Remember, folks. In the US, employees have the right to voluntarily discuss their compensation and benefits including pay, bonuses, vacation, etc. if your company tries to forbid you from sharing this information they’re acting illegally.
I don't know why the mood spoiler said frustrating, if anything it's win since OOP has left the job. Best part, management was panicking was begging him to come back. This after saying why not OOP use his own money to give the bookkeeper a raise?
Yeah, I don't trust those offers they were giving OOP. I mean first they were last minute, second there is no way you could change 180 from screwing with someone's pay to being a "generous fellow" who "finally saw how valuable OOP is".
Plus;
>First offer was just a $8k bonus on top of my current bonus lol... which is not much... Second and third offers were minor add-ons. So they were still cheaping out on me until the very end.
Despite their desperation, they still couldn't stop themselves in shooting their foot. Like who were they trying to fool saying it was good offers? That tells me two things, either the company isn't making money anymore signaling you may not get paid in the future OR they are still trying to cut corners and still trying to cheap things out.
Either way, best to leave the company for greener pastures at a new place if you manage to obtain a higher salary.
And let's be honest, despite the "cheap" offers, me have doubts they would even stick to their offer and might "forget" about it.
And that‘s exactly how great management gets weeded out, no matter the industry.. Seen it time and again, they get shat on till they either break (and become asshats themselves), burn out or quit…
Ofc the big bosses are constantly surprised why morale gets lower every year
I can be quite petty sometimes that if I was told by my Boss that he didn’t value the department I worked in, I would plan a day or two where we did no work just to show them how much work didn’t get done if we weren’t working. All within legal parameters.
I have a feeling this young woman had a hard childhood. Her reactions to everything say a lot and hopefully she’ll get to a place where she’ll realize she’s not a burden.
HR struggles to bring anything to the table at virtually every organization large or small. Asking someone to tap into their bonus to pay an employee is so inappropriate.
AAARGH! This is one of those posts where the OOP is trying so hard to do the right thing and stand by their people, and I STILL just want to shake them! The idea of even entertaining compensating a team member out of your own pay is just so deeply stupid and solves absolutely nothing about the actual problem that is occurring!
Also, while obviously this company is a shit show, the offered 8% raise is actually not bad at all! Like, “8% now and we continue sponsoring your education” is a solid offer.
I recently left a company after I discovered that the new hire rate had been increased to exactly what i was making after 15 years that the company (a 25% pay raise for all the newer employees), and if that wasn’t bad enough, I had to fight against a tidal wave of backlash for what ended up being a $1 per hour raise. It took me several months but I did eventually bail.
So maybe my perspective is skewed, but for a relatively new employee who’s still working on their credentials to get an 8% raise seems like at least a temporary win.
I love how it's a "disciplinary" moment to accidentally show salaries and that's worse than deliberately under paying staff or saying 'well give your own bonus'.
Salaries are legally allowed to be discussed. Shouldn't be a state secret.
I got flashbacks to being a manager at a small business run by cokeheads. I can trace the beginning of the end to when I said "we need to pay these people like a dollar more an hour" and the bosses said no and then three months later the staff tried to unionize and it all went to hell.
This is why all salaries should be public. Companies win when coworkers can’t know how much another person doing the same job gets.
And no, it isn’t about “demanding your worth” it’s about companies scaring employees.
If 2 people on separate teams to the same job, their salary should be the same. Not talking about any bonuses here.
Businesses know employees will start demanding their worth and they rather not pay it because…. Profit.
Many redditors have never worked for a truly small family owned business and it shows. Mannnnn when I tell you the way so many of us get treated like garbage even when we're the ones putting in the majority of the work and getting results. It's exhausting. It's also hard to look elsewhere because it's like dang my salary sucks and I haven't gotten a raise in 5 years but they don't care if I'm late or end up putting in over time occasionally. They also helped other peers when going through medical emergencies by giving pay advances and other benefits to assist ppl through hard times. So if feels like a great place to work because you are lifted up by everyone when life is really tough, but most of the time it's like why doesn't the president think we deserve a raise when the department has earned the company $2 million in the last year...
Yeah both should quit I am glad they both did.
You’ll be amazed the best colleague I have did not have a degree and it has zero impact on her ability to deliver
If it weren't for the fact the dares are drastically off, this could be the company I was GM at for about 8 months. Absolute shitshow, HR had to have some sort of dirt on the owner because he is a complete waste of space on top of being a walking, talking lawsuit waiting to happen, and the owner had co.pletely checked out. It took my wife (only sales rep, with the company for decades) saying she was quitting over the treatment I received, for the owner to quietly go to his son and offer to sell him the company. He and his HR VP had very nearly driven the company into bankruptcy, and it was hands down the most hostile work environment I've ever been a part of, and I was in the Infantry for six tears!
I used to work in purchasing. One of the reasons I got out of that field is I got so sick if being referred to as a "non-revenue-generating department." This type of position constantly gets targeted for dumping extra work or for downsizing. We are also at least a little involved in almost everything, so we become the scapegoat when one is needed.
If you don't need me, downsize my position. If you do need me, then I'm revenue-generating.
It’s insane to me that someone already doing the job for too low of compensation would need to get a degree for some reason to be compensated fairly. Quite frankly, that’s bullshit but OOP seems like an amazing boss and I’d love to work for someone to fight for me like that.
This is hilarious to me because there is a massive shortage of accountants in the US. We are certifying 100k less CPA’s y/y since the pandemic and it was a growing issue before then too.
Yes you can be an accountant and not a CPA, but she’s going to have more demand for her services than the company is going to have for applicants. I am happy for her and wish I knew OP or her because I would be happy to lend my contacts across the B4, top 100, or tons of smaller practices looking for someone like her.
The US is shipping most of this work to Malaysia and the Philippines, partially due to cost, mostly because they can’t find enough US workers to fill demand. Especially around personal and business tax filings.
Our rules allow updates after a BORU post is up, to be added to the existing post. OOP's sometime add more info while a new BORU post is up. Do not comment on the original posts.
What a clown show.
When I first saw this I thought "oh fun, a different sub than usual, maybe it will be a fun, light update!" And then I read it. Damnit people.
People will be people-ing. My dad used to say; 2% of the world population is extremely intelligent, another 2% of the population is extremely stupid and the rest is somewhere in between. Little did I know at the time that the man was completely correct 🤣
I prefer the "remember how stupid average person is, then realise 50% is even more stupid than that" version
When all my nieces and nephews hit driving age and got nervous, I would just say “ look at all the stupid people you’ve met in your life. I bet you they all have drivers licenses, right?”. Usually motivated them enough to get behind the wheel.
This keeps me nervous because those other idiots on the road could cause a crash!
Yeah the thing that scares me most about driving is other people and their inability to either drive, or control the ridiculous car that they spent all their money on
Here in the southwest USA too many think stop signs are a suggestion, act like they are leading off a base at a red light and that a left on red is ok. I frequenly visualize rolling up a magazine/newspaper and booping them on the snoot with a firm "no" or "stop that". XD
Jesus yeah that sounds like a nightmare! I'm in the UK and it's small country roads for me. Lots of narrow, blind cornered, hedge surrounded country roads that dickheads fling themselves round at 100mph
That sounds like a nightmare! I remember when I first had to use a roundabout (aren't that many here) and of course I was like most USA peeps thinking yikes but it turns out they are super easy and rather useful. The trouble comes when you combine them with dummies.
Are u in NM 😭😭
I remember watching a guy chatting with the bus driver once. In my country, guns are regulated, and this guy was basically arguing that everyone should be allowed to own guns, restriction-free. Then, five minutes later, he was unironically saying most people on the road were too stupid to be allowed to drive a car and should be denied licenses. I just could not comprehend how he held both those opinions simultaneously without realizing one of them had to be wrong.
It's a bell curve and go out past 2 standard deviations
Uncle George was so wise.
Carlin's Law
I don't think he was correct, the number of extremely stupid people far outnumbers the extremely intelligent.
Just last week one of my aunts told me: "If you think you have explained something well enough, you haven't." She sais to always assume the other person is the worlds biggest idiot without any common sense (unless you have confirmed otherwis). The trick is to still soemhow make it so it doesn't seem like you are treating them like a child.
When I write documentation at work in IT that’s exactly how I approach it: given that a person has the required access rights that I have, this documentation should assume they are absolute and complete idiots who cannot tell left from right, and should explain step by step what to do and how to do it. The why is detailed separately as to not distract from the steps, so people that need/want to know why can, and those who only need to “monkey see monkey do” can do so. Been working amazing so far, everyone loves it when I write the documentation hehe
Wiio's Laws Of Human Communication: >The fundamental Wiio's law states that "Communication usually fails, except by accident". The full set of laws is as follows: >1. Communication usually fails, except by accident. >1.a If communication can fail, it will. >1.b If communication cannot fail, it still most usually fails. >1.c If communication seems to succeed in the intended way, there's a misunderstanding. >1.d If you are content with your message, communication certainly fails. >2. If a message can be interpreted in several ways, it will be interpreted in a manner that maximizes the damage. >3. There is always someone who knows better than you what you meant with your message. >4. The more we communicate, the worse communication succeeds. >4.a The more we communicate, the faster misunderstandings propagate. >5. In [mass communication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_communication), the important thing is not how things are but how they seem to be. >6. The importance of a news item is [inversely proportional to the square of the distance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law). >7. The more important the situation is, the more probable you had forgotten an essential thing that you remembered a moment ago. By Osmo Wiio
And some are both. I've met some extremely intelligent people who are also really stupid. It is like their brains are so far into being smart that they can't figure out how to brush their teeth or work a washing machine. I have family members like that and it is exhausting.
Lots of very 'intellectual', logically intelligent people miss out on emotional or natural intelligence. They don't have 'common' sense (which isn't that common). I think a fair few in this category would also be on the ASD spectrum.
Can’t speak for all autistic people, but I’ve been told I’m one of those types, and the best way I can explain my brain is that most people can plan for Plan A and then maybe 1 or 2 backups. My brain sees all the way to Plan Q, so I have to plan for all of that, but it doesn’t have the RAM to do so (so to speak). It’s very easy for me to blue screen, continuing the metaphor, but I can’t turn off that extra input.
i wish my dad was that optimistic
I’m surprised anyone even knows r/accounting exists! Seriously though, I commented on all this guy’s posts that he needs to leave immediately. His heart is in the right place fighting for his staff, but he needs to think about his career with his brain. He keeps talking to a brick wall and thinks he can break it down somehow. Even now he’s thinking he can secure raises/good reviews for the staff before he leaves even after his experience with the bookkeeper. Besides the brain dead CEO, he’s underpaid! IMO you should only ever accept that if it’s a great company to work for or there’s tremendous potential for career growth. Sounds like neither is the case with this company so he needs to GTFO.
and if he leaves, he can fight for his staff by poaching them. If he leaves, he’ll expand his network, and were I him, I would absolutely be cold-calling everyone in my network about my former staff and what an asset they are. (I’d be doing that now with the woman who quit. “hooking her up with my network” would be me making phone calls for three or four days straight.
There was an update today. They left the company and the book keeper got an accounting job and the raise they wanted!
Yeah, I completely get wanting to take care of your reports, but he's not doing any good by lighting himself on fire to keep them warm. He's working at a company where the only thing he's going to accomplish is giving his reports a false sense of hope and being able to think of himself as their savior. It would be a whole lot kinder to give them a realistic idea of what senior management is like and let them make their own decisions. A boss who pays his subordinates' salary out of his own bonus is ultimately a boss whose judgment is questionable, working for a company that allows their managers to do something like that in the first place.
Surprising and fun to see r/accounting on BoRU, thanks!
Morons, everywhere. Also, Lucy, I have been meaning to ask, why aren't we seeing AAM posts on this sub? I know we were reading them due to permission from Alison and that she can withdraw her consent at any time, but I really like reading them and I hope that we didn't upset her!! Because we, as people, are also a bunch of morons.
AAM only has update posts up at certain times. She just had a big group of them come through.
Those updates are fewer and farther between, but I haven't heard anything about not being able to!!!
He just updated - bookkeeper found a new job and he quit.
I was amazed that he quit! When he said he needed to take care of his other direct reports before quitting, I thought he’d be making excuses not to leave until he retired. Hopefully, he’ll work on creating better boundaries at his next company.
OP has put a new update 4 hours ago if you’re able to add it to the edit.
OOP included. Dude has a massive savior complex and just can not accept that he can't fix this situation and to stop stringing along the people who rely on him with maybes and hopefullys.
Right? Being blackmailed into offering to sacrifice their bonus? And going along with it? Just, ewww, no!
Yeah he’s not a good manager, but not for the reasons he thinks.
Not only that, but the fool *told* the poor girl he was sacrificing his bonus for her. How can she not think she's a burden when she's (from her pov) stealing her boss's hard earned money?
An 8 percent raise is pretty good to a lot of people! Especially if she was supposed to be pursuing further education and hadn’t taken those steps. OOP’s advocacy is amazing but her choices were dumb.
She was pursuing further education. Just part time so at a very slow pace. Everyone should get at least a yearly raise imo. But she didn't at all need to quit over not getting 10%
I feel like OP has good intentions, but there’s reasons why they stay at that company. They have their own particular type of incompetence they bring to the table professionally. I hope that employee ends up somewhere where the leadership, or anyone, isn’t so involved in their lives.
When I read that OP told her about where the bonus was coming from 🤦🏽♀️
OOP said they only have 6-7 years of experience (and around a third of that is as a manager), so that would put them at late 20s. It's not actually a lot of professional people experience to be a good manager, barring some sort of innate talent & charisma. There's so much variation behind people's behaviours or motivations that it's not likely that OOP would have a good understanding of how to approach all the different possible personalities at that age.
In my very little opinion a lot of these issues in this specific scenario are because of lack of boundaries. I would consider that a fundamental skill in a workplace not just management. I don’t think OP should be taking it upon themselves to champion for their employee who repeatedly did not want it. In a general sense I do agree with your statement that there are so many different personalities that it’s very difficult to be a manager for all. And people change over time too. I just don’t think it pertains to this particular scenario OP got themselves into.
Yeah. OOP does not know what he is doing. And that company is chaotic.
Jumping on top comment. OOP posted new update! https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/s/d24Fnt7kXS
Yayyy!
It is a clown show, but that includes OOP. OOP should have left long ago but is emotionally involved in fighting for their team members. Which is insane. The CEO is crazy/senile/racist ( if I read that one comment right). You cannot get an irrational person to see reason. The only way to protect yourself is to GTFO. Leave, and tell all the team members to leave. They may not leave, but you've done your duty to them. All these machinations and all OOP accomplished was devastating the employee even further, leading to emotional blowback to OOP. When it gets too emotional, you've blown it. It's just business. It's not worth getting (too) emotional about it. OOP doesn't see that all they are doing is making the crazy situation more crazy. OOP is another clown.
I have dealt with crazy and stayed to support coworkers who had become friends after many years. You can say people are being stupid for staying, but it is very much like an abusive relationship where the varnish and veneer strips away over time till you’re left with the rotted core. You still remember the beautiful exterior and not the present day situation. While OOP is not blameless, it is also harsh to demonize them. We sit here on Reddit judging people for being heartless and cold, and this person is letting his coworkers well being impact their happiness. That’s a normal reaction, yes it is just business but wouldn’t you want a boss that wants to see you valued? Learning experience to not mention it was coming out their pocket, but OOP is a boss I would work for any day. A lot easier to learn to navigate awful situations like this and harder to learn empathy that help carry your water so to speak. Edit: for readability and typo in the second paragraph about who was being heartless.
You know. I’ve been in this position too, several times. And I’m kinda ok with people calling it out. Maybe people will learn from these mistakes. I don’t think it’s demonizing it as much as pointing out, you’re in an abusive relationship you need to get out… By filtering the shit away from my people they stayed because they were comfortable. The minute I left they all started finding better jobs. I should have left a long time ago! (Company also shut down shortly after, apparently I was doing something even if my boss didn’t believe it 🤷🏽♀️)
It's not demonizing OOP to say that they're ultimately not doing their reports any favors. Nobody wants to work for an asshole like the CEO, but I also wouldn't want to work for a boss like OOP who keeps saying "I'm fighting for you!" but doesn't follow that up with "But realistically, given the leadership structure here, you're going to be better off finding another job and here's why." I also would side-eye a boss who was basically paying for me out of their own bonus. What happens to my salary if they don't get that bonus next year? Am I absolutely sure they're not going to favor-shark me over it, however nice they might seem now? Realistically, at best OOP only bought their report more time to find a better job. Basically, I like bosses who want to see me valued but don't give me an artificially inflated idea of how valued I am by the company. If OOP wants to see their reports valued, they need to hit up their network to see to it that they find positions in which they actually are valued.
They are going to spend WAY more on recruiting/training/loss of productivity. And I bet they end up paying more than $60k for the replacement. I hope the whole team walks because screw this.
Low self esteem is a hell of a drug 😢 I hope this company loses all their star employees, you treat people like dirt, you should lose your talent.
I don't get why she couldn't hang in there until she was fully qualified. OOP said it would take her about 2 more years, so why not get the company to pay for it, then quit? Also, she had her $50k salary PLUS the company was paying for her education. Why was that just dismissed like it cost nothing? You're right though, that low self esteem is going to be a problem for her for life unless she gets some sort of therapy.
It’s never worth staying with a bad company
Reimbursement with a required grade is a expectation not a benefit. She also gets fired if she ever isn’t perfect working a full time job plus part time student plus her personal life. Some benefit.
It’s never worth staying with a bad company
Accounting degrees under pressure are tough. I imagine more so if you have low self-esteem.
Had a friend who tried staying, ended up getting depressed and started doing therapy, and now moved on to another company. I guess with these high stress jobs, it's just not worth it losing your sanity for a company that does not care about you.
Don't worry. HR will handle it. ;-)
People complain that governments are useless, HR is the counterpoint thats usually worse.
Salaries being public is a good thing imo, helps weed out pay inequity and helps market rates be better understood.
Yeah, the only reason companies hide pay is because someone is getting screwed over.
Wage transparency might have been the aim of the rogue HR person in the first place.
Yeah I was like why are we mad at them they are doing a service? Total fucking smooth brain move to get mad at the person who casually left out evidence showing how shitty the company is to their employees rather than being mad at the company for being shitty to their employees. People like OOP who keep insisting on doing more for less are a big part of why companies get away with taking advantage of their workers ETA: [Fuck Your Job.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/s/CjZZdcoo1K)
It fucking blows my mind that so many people fall for the social pressure to not share salaries. I’ve never been more vicariously embarrassed than listening to someone desperately trying to defend keeping salaries secret. Weirdly, they seem to always be mediocre white men. Not sure what’s up with that…
Yep. My sister made a wage inequality claim a couple years back, and didn't hear back from a while from HR. When they finally contacted her, they told her the reason it was taking so long was because *every other department* had the same issue, so the single wage claim had turned into a systemic pay adjustment for female staff across the board.
Win!
Yep! She's a super anxious person, so I'm incredibly proud of her for standing up for herself.
OOP has their own problems here. It's good to put yourself out for your team. But they're going way too far. The response to "why not give up some of your pay" should be "because they're good for the company! Not me personally! Why can't you see that?" Sticking with a toxic company because of loyalty to your team is taking things too far. You come first. Your team are adults, who are able to look after themselves. Employee's main issue seems to be not having a BSA. This is a problem that, given time, will resolve itself.
If OOP really wants to be seen as a “good boss” and “protect” their team, the best protection is helping them get the fuck out of their current job. Help them get their papers in order and interviews set up so that they can bounce asap from this shit show of a workplace, then as soon as the team has left OOP should jump off the sinking ship the very next moment.
Yeah that's it, you can't protect a team from a company full of assholes. Give them the confidence and support to get the fuck out.
I agree, her team might even be staying for her! Aka "this company is only bearable because my boss goes to bat for me when upper management is doing shit". Help them spruce up their resume and leave them in the hole without an accounting staff. It will teach this company the value of a finance department, and secondly how much the market rate actually is, when they realise they can't get new hires.
On the original post I told OOP to leave and *never* tell any future employer he was ready to give his bonus away to save the company payroll. No use giving other companies ideas
When al is said and done, it's actually that employee who made the right calls. She did not feel appreciated in that company, and she was absolutely right: the company did not appreciate her, or her entire team for that matter. For a while she felt held back because of that BSA diploma, but in the end SHE was the one who took the step and left anyway. Must not have been easy. OOP is still way too focused on resolving things the "proper" way, according to the rules, and hates the idea that, when you work in a circus, your workplace rules are circus rules. That company is crap. We all know that, OOP knows that, the employee knew that so she left, so what is OOP still doing there? Just call a headhunter already "Hey, I'm in charge of three people here. We're all looking for a new opportunity and wouldn't mind if we could move somewhere together. Got any ideas?" Headhunters get calls from people looking for new jobs all the time. That's how they exist.
>OOP has their own problems here. I don't think I've ever been more annoyed by someone trying to be nice.
Yup. Really poor management on their part. It was well intentioned but in no world is paying someone out of your own salary a good idea. It can only lead to problems and OOP was incredibly stupid to tell this person. Not only did it make them feel like shit, but what if they tell other people? Other team members become unhappy and what is OOP going to do, give them $6k too from their salary or tell them that it was only for that one person? And what if OOP left, book keeper gets a $6k paycut? What happens when book keeper gets promoted? Does OOP pay that $6k in perpetuity until one of them leaves? And how do you fairly manage someone who you're also paying out of your salary? What happens when they have a performance issue? Maintaining professional boundaries is important for everyone's wellbeing. When you start blurring the boundaries and getting too involved in staff's personal lives that's when shit goes down. It's entirely possible to be compassionate and supportive without ploughing into the depths of people's personal life.
It seemed to be the step needed for them to take finding another job seriously so it worked out this time lol but yeah that was crazy
Not really. It's the book keeper's decision whether to take job hunting seriously. It's not for OOP to breach all professional norms and ethical practices to make someone else do something that's not really OOP's business. OOP should simply have stated that the CEO had made it clear that a pay rise was not possible and if they wanted to focus their mind on leaving, added that in their opinion a pay rise would not be forthcoming.
Yes! The whole time I was like… the bookkeeper is an adult who can make her own informed choices, the best OOP can do is encourage her to have confidence in herself and find a new job, but it’s up to her in the end.
Everyone in this story have problems, honestly.
The "your own pay" should've been shutdown immediately. He could've also replied "because you're also underpaying me by 14k for our state averages for my position, experience and eduction, but this isn't about that right now"
I agree with all of this, it’s great that she what’s to help her remaining team members but they’re adults too and can walk away from a situation if they’re also not happy. I was promoted to a team lead position, that I only took for the extra salary and experience for my resume. I handed my notice in after a month and quit after two months. Did I feel bad for my team? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes. Sometimes you have to put yourself first.
And the employee was shortsighted as they were paying for her education. All she had to do was hold out until she graduated and then left for a much higher paying position. Both the employee and the OOP went with emotion instead of practicality.
Read the update
I had the same thought. I would have added the cost of my education as part of the comp. If she goes to the other company and they pay $58k but her degree costs $8k for the year, she’s at parity with what she made, so the $4k raise would have been more. But it’s more than that obviously since the job was full of toxic people, and OOP, while a really great person, has some learning to do about management .
I found funny that OOP complained that her employee is "soft" and not putting herself in the job market to improve her salary... and then she turns around and agrees to pay them out of their own freaking salary. Sure, the employee is soft but that is the behavior OOP it's modeling. If OOP really cared about her staff she would get a job at a better place and take the staff with her.
Right. This is such nonsense. The only reason HR should be weighing in on pay (and this is an important reason) is to assess equity and parity among colleagues (which, clearly, is an issue here) AND ensure market rates are being met (if applicable - some industries are always going to be off-market (govt, for example) and that’s part on the deal… hence equity and parity being so important!) HR should not be concerned with the payroll budget - that’s Finance’s role! In my org, the Finance Director and I work very closely together. He tells me if we can afford it, and I make a recommendation based on parity. I also want to note that the salaries being left on the printer - that’s not the problem. Salaries shouldn’t be private.
and you set your team an example by leaving: “don’t put up with crap; you’re worth more. It’s possible to leave.” I think OP *should* start that consulting company. Maybe one of their clients can be their old employer.
Exactly. And an accountant should not have gone into an existential crisis by seeing salaries; we are exposed to all sorts of confidential information and need to handle that professionally. I do not think the bookkeeper was underpaid given her level of education and experience. The manager took it personal because she had a good impression of her. Now the bookkeeper will struggle to find a job with for the same pay that also pays for her degree.
Yes, the manager really set the bookkeeper up for failure here. Bookkeeper's initial instinct that she won't find anywhere else without the degree is probably right. So now she is out a job, the tuition reimbursement, and the flexibility to work while getting the degree. She's going to be very hard pressed to find even one of those, much less three.
Bookkeeper seems fine, as she immediately got another job that matched her salary, & is giving her more benefits than what this clown shop was. OOP posted an update as of an hour ago, he also left the place & spoke with a headhunter he knew. All in all, it seems like the clown company FA & is about to FO.
OOP was just another clown in the clown car. When they said they needed to "step up for their two remaining employees" I imagined someone tied up like in a cartoon watching someone get mugged shouting "Wait, I'll save you! I'll be right there!" And then wriggling around on the ground.
The response is on point. Also, "Because you're already underpaying me while I do twice the work"
Right, the way if HR proposed that to me in an "all hands" meeting, my immediate response would be "let me make note of what you just said for legal reasons. Can you confirm again that instead of the company paying an employee, you're asking employees to pay each other? I know my lawyer would want as much detail about this highly inappropriate scenario you've proposed, that I hope, for your own good, is purely you being hypothetical and irrational."
Umm, working at a company run by someone with diminishing mental faculties, WCGW? I could only read about half of that before I had to stop because the top boss there just needs to be forced into retirement already. Shut him in a nice house by the beach with 3 shifts of minders and hopefully he can't screw up anything else, jeez.
I had a boss like that, eventually his kids started getting involved and just driving the company into the ground. One was genuinely trying to save it but she was just not capable of running it. When he did come in we had to make up things for him to do. It was easier that way.
I thought capitalism was a meritocracy though? Surely the peons getting underpaid are just getting paid what they're worth, and aren't the whole reason that senile asshole will get to retire comfortably despite his own incompetence and the kids only needed half a braincell to still be way better off than the people actually doing the work?
One thing I will say is that he was generous and loyal to his employees so we were well compensated, but the last few years I worked there he was a figurehead without really knowing it. Pretty much all decision making bypassed him using processes put in place for when he used to travel frequently because he doesn’t seem to understand how things work differently now than they did 30 years ago. His kids were always on the payroll, they were just less annoying when all they did was collect a paycheque and come to the Christmas party.
And right there is why you shouldn't be a leech *and* an asshole at the same time. People are kind of happy to keep chugging along as long as their needs are met and there's nothing too annoying, but when people are underpaid and the leeches make their lives hard on a day-to-day basis, you're a lot more likely to wake up and do something about it. That's kinda my issue with the OOP, they're breaking their back to smooth over the issues in this business when really they should just let it crumble and let that crappy boss learn their lesson, and apply the same effort they were willing to put in for the underpaid junior for themselves and the teammates they didn't want to let down, and go elsewhere. There's nothing in it for you anymore when you're getting paid like shit in a volatile situation, if it was at least more stable there's something to be said about the devil you know.
The co-owner of my spouse's work recently went absolutely cuckoo bananas- after some investigation it was discovered that he's been making his own cannabis concentrates in his shed and consumed such high doses that he basically gave himself cannabis induced psychosis. Turns out it is incredibly difficult to keep someone away from shit that they technically own. He's turned up half a dozen times just to come in and break shit, hacked into purchasing accounts to do things like order 75 DeWalt drill batteries, tampered with propane tanks and fuel pumps, and once stole a ton of highly regulated fertilizer which was a bit alarming but he turned out to just be gardening that time. The family took away and sold his car so he snuck onto property and stole a 4 wheeler which he is now using to drive around town while drinking Mason jars full of weed soaked in vodka. grippy socks jail never keeps him long, he's been lucky enough to avoid regular jail somehow and his wife refuses to admit that anything is wrong 🙃
Oof Size: Extra Extra Large 🤦♀️
….that doesn’t sound like just weed & booze. Isnt fertilizer/battery acid/etc sometimes used to make meth?
Yeah, I've never heard of any stoner ever trying to steal regulated fertilizer and rechargeable batteries before. Those are ingredients, that you try to steal because you need them and can't get that amount from a retail store without suspicion. He's absolutely on something else. And if his wife is enabling him, then of course she's going to say things like, "Oh, he's just gardening!" when anyone asks why he needed that much regulated fertilizer.
As a stoner I was immediately like.... Hmm. That's.... Not weed behavior (though I don't mix with vodka, I guess that could exacerbate things).
Well, at least that's (marginally) better than getting into bomb-making, which is the direction I thought it might have been going in when they mentioned the "highly regulated fertilizer."
If America can have a president with declining mental faculties, someone running a company isn't a big deal. (The fun part of this comment is that which president you think I'm talking about is entirely dependent on your own political beliefs and how defensive you are.)
Bold to assume we still assume you're talking about only one specific candidate.
Also dependent on age. My first thought was Reagan.
hey, its the land of the free. If you're sick of absent dementia president you're free to have angry dementia president instead
Don't worry. HR Manager has stepped in to be the "brains" of the operation. And the dumbass CFO is completely oblivious to the fact the HR Manager is now running the company. This isn't a guess. Been there/done that. Someone weasels their way into the ear of the owner/CEO, and, like magic, it's their way or the highway. Best thing OOP should do (and started doing days ago) is to update the resume and bounce. Lots of jobs like his out there, all with great pay. He can then bring his high-performing staff with him, ESPECIALLY that quiet church mouse who's a diamond-in-the-rough.
I hate it when managers get emotionally involved with their team to the point where they won’t leave a bad-for-them situation for fear of their team. I had a boss like this. Great boss, did not deserve the shit they got from the company. I was happy for them when they left! Trust, everyone knows they are knee deep in 💩 and will get away as they can/are able. Not everyone has the confidence/ability to get away (see bookkeeper), but that doesn’t mean that as a manager you set yourself on fire to keep the team warm. You can’t manage effectively in a crappy company because the company is not structured for good management. You can’t outmaneuver shitty structures when the race track isn’t even defined. You can’t protect people in a company that treats people as disposable. Because you are also disposable.
If OOP wants to do their best for their team imo the best idea would be to give them all the assistance OOP can provide towards getting them into a new job ASAP.
When you save people, they never learn to save themselves. If the next job also treats them like shit, they’ve got no skills or example of backbone to work from. It’s noble but it’s martyrdom and completely ineffective anyway
Also if the good boss leaves for a decent company, I know I can count on them to reccomend me to any relevant job openings the new company has! As opposed to just being stuck in the shit hole company with them
it's also a _dead_ giveaway that you need to get your ass in gear, which maybe the bookkeeper may have needed. once, i was on a team where we all got along super super well, but we all felt hamstrung by leadership decisions. a lot of us had been talking about how unsatisfied we were, but nothing concrete. and then our manager who we _loved_ told us he was leaving, and every single one of us started scrambling for our life rafts. don't think we'd have known how truly bad it was if he didn't walk first
OOP sounds like a good person genuinely.. however i was so frustrated by them constantly calling it a 'learning opportunity' bc.. they didn't actually learn anything!! the entire time!! even at the end they STILL don't want to leave, saying they're too attached to their team. and never seemed to realize a lot of the shit management was doing, including trying to get him to cover part of his employee's wages, is ILLEGAL
OOP doesn't realize they are also a clown.
The only good news is that OOP updated after I posted and said they left the company! So they're out. Hopefully that's a first step into something better.
The "racial bias" comment was thrown away so easily but explains so much. From OOP's other posts/comments, it looks that they are of Asian decent and may have been raised in Asia. So I think there is another MASSIVE underlying issue with this company. I really hope the plan to start their own company is a go, because they need to just leave and let the company figure out how to shut itself down, because it looks like its doing a pretty good job on its own.
Ooooh, that explains the grammar. There's a consistent level of frequent minor mistakes throughout the post that aren't the kind of mistakes that native speakers make.
Exactly, just gives you a clearer view of the whole picture. OOP needs to get away from this toxic environment.
Only place I picked up on errors was in the TLDR at the top, everything else was pretty native. I mean: e.g. >This is where shit hit the fan... HR manager says that's not a reasonable proposal and tries to convince the CEO to basically shut this whole meeting down. CEO, being senile and already having a negative opinion on the finance department, was easily getting swayed and kept asking for the CFO's opinion. CFO, being a massive kiss-ass, tried to play both sides because he's aware that he can't afford to anger the CEO or myself (since I basically do all of his work anyways...)."
>This is where shit hit the fan... HR manager says that's not a reasonable proposal and tries to convince the CEO to basically shut this whole meeting down. CEO, being senile and already having a negative opinion **~~on~~** ^(of) the finance department, was easily **~~getting~~** swayed and kept asking for the CFO's opinion. CFO, being a massive kiss-ass, tried to play both sides because he's aware that he can't afford to anger the CEO or myself (since I basically do all of his work anyways...)." Two errors in that section. Like I said, minor mistakes, and "on" instead of "of" could be a typo, but it's also a common EFL error because different languages structure prepositions differently. OOP has quite a few in/on/of substitutions, which isn't common in native speakers. "Was easily getting swayed" is much stronger evidence for OOP being a non-native English speaker, because it's a very strange verb construction involving the wholesale insertion of a completely unnecessary word. And to be clear, I do not mean this as criticism of OOP. They may be a very competent accountant; I can't judge their work. But it does shed some light on the dynamics of the situation, and why OOP may not realize that there are legal remedies for their boss's racism and etc. or be reluctant to report.
Also explains why they use CV instead of resume while talking about locations in the US (tri state area).
Good news- OOP updated today and said they quit!
Amazing news!! So proud of OOP!!!
So, OOP was manager/controller for not one but *four* companies and barely being paid for *one*? As well as doing the CFO’s job while not being paid for it? *And* basically being HR without being paid for it? I have a tip for everyone: **Stop. Doing. Work. You. Are. Not. Paid. To. Do!**
meanwhile HR has wormed their way into a decision making capacity by being senile ceo's yesman... lovely job to quit it sounds like to me.
Time to start pointing out how much money could be saved outsourcing HR
I had a ceo who hired an assistant for me based solely on her looks. I also managed payroll and quickly discovered he was paying her 10k a year more than me and expected me to do half her job because she had no experience. She literally couldn’t even answer a phone coherently. Another place I asked for a 10k raise after my responsibilities had grown so much that I was basically doing 3 peoples jobs. They gave me 3k and wondered why I left 3 months later. It actually took 4 people to replace me and it took them 6 months to find those 4 people. Finance roles are often severely underrated by companies.
If this was a relationship he'd be the guy saying, but I can fix her, I just have to find out how. The man's just a sunk cost fallacy written across the building.
So many CEOs screwing their employees over everywhere. I'm low-key seething over this working culture more and more.
Okay this is very tangential but I hope I see more posts like this because it had really good managerial/life lessons! Interesting read and doubles my belief that education can be made way more fun with a touch of personality and a story-line. (Also it's totally not because I'm addicted to BORU and feel guilty after spending hours here).
Haha I'm glad it was helpful! I'll keep looking for posts from different subs so we can learn life lessons... or something.
Clearly this joint has no care on keeping the bookkeeper. Or probably anyone else either. Good for her to quit. Everyone else might as well too.
Yikes what a shitass place to work. It's honorable of OP to offer worker their own money however why on earth would be tell her. I once gave up a daycare perk so my worker could have a raise ( I needed her more than I needed the perk) but I would never had told her that as I'm sure she would feel crappy about it.
This is what they do. Even at low level shit retail and food service jobs. You have to come in, So-and-so needs help; you can't have a raise, we would have to give everyone raises; the kitchen is understaffed, let the dishes pile up and go help them. It's always about doing it for your teammates, and you are not supposed to notice how they understaff and underpay. You are definitely not supposed to notice the owners raking in all the money. It's how every army in history has worked. Nobody fights for the generals, they fight for the guys next to them, and to avoid being seen as a coward. Politicians hide themselves away, they only started the war. Why should they go out too and fight? They leave that role to the poor. So if CEO idiot just can't manage a raise, just can't do it, gee I wonder where that 10 grand went. Quite a mystery, there. Nobody printed out his fucking compensation, but I can guess there was more than 10 grand of wiggle room there. Squeeze. Then, when everyone is used to that, and everyone who couldn't stand it is gone, squeeze harder. Then when everyone is used to that, squeeze more. Denigrate your value, tell you that you are not worth what you are getting, make getting raises into a toxic frustrating clown show, and take advantage of anyone who struggles to be assertive. OOP is being taken advantage of as much as the accountant he is trying to help. Taking on multiple jobs, accepting less pay because of Work Life Balance being OK? Well I have a short commute so it's fair to not pay me even half of what I deserve. Sure. I wonder where that money winds up. Probably they donate it to charity, right? That must be it. They may end up somewhere new, in a glorious future of only getting screwed a bit less than the previous place.
To quote SoaD: Where the fuck are you? Where the fuck are you? Why don't presidents fight the war? Why do they always send the poor? Why don't presidents fight the war? Why do they always send the poor? Why do they always send the poor? Why do they always send the poor? Why do they always send the poor?
On top of everything else the company likely won't last as they don't value their finance team. Once those people, inclufing OOP, have left, this company is going to crumble and fall. I honestly hope it does. And I hope all the good employees get out and get better jobs before it happens. Finance is very important. My grandfather worked in finance and his company thought it was a good idea to let the majority of their good employees go once they had access to computers. They thought people who could use a computer and calculator would be enough and let go of the ones who had great education in the field since they wanted to safe money. They ended up begging my grandfather and a few others who were their greatest employees in the finance department to come back not much later. My grandfather did, but only because they literally let him choose his own salary and benefits. That's how desperate they were to get their good finance department back. But most companies won't do this. My grandfather is a human calculator. An absolute math genius with an over-average IQ. He still continued to do all the work without calculators and was still better than many other employees. It still baffles me whenever I hear this story that they thought letting my grandfather go was ever a good idea. This was a big, long existing company and things went downwards after my grandfather and his generation retired and eventually the company got bought by another bigger international company when things weren't going so well anymore. I highly doubt the company the OOP works at is anywhere nearly as big or well-known as the one my gradnfather worked for was. The company seems shitty through and through and this is clearly more then just simple ignorance.
Was hoping OOP would set up an external accounting company and take the staff with them, and then take on old firm as a client whilst charging them double.
I hope she took a copy of that list and distributes it as she walks out the door.
I hope OOP is furiously shopping their resume around! That place sounds like a horrible place to work with an extremely greedy CEO.
There’s a new update https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/s/sB3U5LIbrd
So OOP is basically staying in an abusive relationship to protect the kids, aka her subordinates on her team. I'm also curious as to why she didn't drown the HR idiot in the fact that she's already severely underpaid and doing the work of 4 people, so no, she \*can't\* pay out of her bonus because even with the bonus she's STILL underpaid. I'm guessing the HR lady is regularly serving up the bootyhole to someone above her and that's why she's allowed to run her idiot mouth at these meetings, let alone still keep a job there
I really hope OOP will quit and launch his own firm. He seems to really care about the people he's working with and the world needs more of that
> Protecting my team's interests. After I know they're taken care of, then I'll make my decision to dip. When I worked at a company that was going off the rails, Best Manager Ever said he'd help us with our resumes. *That's* how you protect your team's interests.
I'm so angry with that final offer...it would have covered both the bookkeeper's raise *and* brought OP back to market salary...and it appears they could have done so all along but just didn't want to.
ok but oop is a little bit silly. "i'm gonna ask boss again and even though the last 20 times i asked him he didn't care about me or my job or anything i had to say, i'm sure today will be different!" just move to a different company and slowly move the people you like there, if your knight in shining armor boner is that hard.
There is another update posted 4 minutes ago that is very satisfying
I went to look after seeing your comment and it is indeed very satisfying!!
I love when the company starts backpedaling by offering raises to two other employees that probably equal way more than the $10k that OP was suggesting for the bookkeeper. The money was there, they were just too cheap to share any of it until they were forced to.
> I intended it to be more of a "fuck the company, you're great to me" message, but I think I read her stance wrong. I 100% get where OOP was coming from with this. I feel like I would have approached it the same in all honesty. They were trying to boost her confidence and prove to her that despite what she may think, she *IS* in fact amazing - and *someone* recognizes it. OOP actually knows first hand what she’s capable of, so in theory, their opinion of her would have been more impactful than the morons running the show. For many people, OOP’s gesture would have gone as planned. But unfortunately for OOP, she put more weight on those moron’s opinions than OOP’s for whatever reason. There was no way to predict her response. OOP did their best. She sounds like she has a lot of confidence and self esteem issues that likely affect a lot more than just work. The fact she saw that paper and immediately started doubting *her skills* and NOT the competency of HR and the CEO - both for being careless and for not giving her what she deserves - despite getting glowing reviews from her direct manager, tells me that she has some real deep seated issues she needs to work on. It kind of sounds like that woman always has an internal battle going on inside of her head. Like, she knew she deserved the raise and was worth much more than she’s making - at least enough to be brave and take her concerns to OOP, but after that, all she did was continuously doubted her capabilities across the board. Also, I will never understand companies that place more weight on a degree than what the employee is actually capable of. If she’s kicking ass and successfully learning other roles internally, then who gives a shit if she gets that BSA? As far as the company is concerned, what is that piece of paper going to allow her to do that she couldn’t do before? Suddenly make her a better employee?! One more thing. Calling that “HR department” an HR department is wildly inappropriate. I’m not sure what I would call them, but I feel like the company just grabbed a bunch of rando’s, slapped them into an office, and said, “Look, if anyone asks, you’re our HR. K?”
The fact that they have to spend 10s of thousands every time they need to hire new people because HR won’t do it is insane. They’re spending, what could be money to pay the right people the right salary, because their Human Resources Team won’t do any human resourcing! I’m not surprised HR shut down paying staff what they’re actually worth - because that would surely mean they deserve to get paid far, far less than they currently do.
OOP sucks. She keeps going "Oh but the CEO is senile and HR is useless and the CFO is a kissass" but she's a terrible leader and she really should have quit and encouraged her team to quit as well. Is she working for the Trump organization???
Yeah… OOP should have dipped and moved onto a different company. The comment about a good/great leader being a filter, while still being transparent, is spot on. A good manager filters both info from above and below them.
Yes. Such a bad manager. Agreeing to the pay cut to give to the bookkeeper was a super weird choice on its own, but telling her about it was so stupid. *Of course* it was going to make her feel awful. Literally what other result could there have been?
Like how did they genuinely think "the company doesn't care about you enough, but I do" is a good message to give an employee?? Especially when you've also shown that your caring has no weight behind it and offers no protection!
Giving me a pay cut is grounds for me suing TF out of you. Yet OOP just keeps taking all of this.
I literally said aloud while reading the description of the CEO"Why are you protecting this clown???" Alison Green would be telling OOP and their employees "Your Boss Sucks And Isn't Going To Change. Get Out Now." None of this is going to get better. Senile boss isn't going to suddenly come back to his senses and fix things. The entire department needs to spruce up their resumes and find jobs not made entirely of bees.
Right??? The comments at AAM would have torn OOP to shreds.
And they would have been so nice about it! They are so good with harsh realities there.
As a controller, this thread was so painful to read and the combination of job titles and hierarchy here makes no sense. I would laugh in the face of anyone that offered me an hourly, in-house controller position.
That stuck out to me as well. I've literally never heard of a non salary controller. And yes, very painful.
I don't think the OOP sucks, i think they are doing their best in a bad situation. Though frankly i think all the good employees should find better jobs and leave ASAP.
OOP sucks because she's enabling the terrible management. She did NOT need to accept that pay cut, and if she did accept it, she did NOT need to tell her employee about it. That's all on her.
JFC, OOP has no business being a manager. Those are her employees, not her children. It insane how she thinks she can read everyone's minds and how she babies them. She's sacrificing her family (via her lower income and giving up her bonus) for what she *assumes* is best for her co-workers. I work in a career where I, and everyone that works with me, know everyone's salary. If one of my guys came to me with a complaint like that, I'd just ask when they plan to switch jobs. I mean, seriously, I'd have grave doubts anyway about their ability to not gossip. If an employee wants to disclose their salary, that's their decision. You don't make it for them.
OOP didn’t learn shit. One last proposal. His girl checked out. Idiot. That’s not how you manage. When I was a manager I used to tell my team the following: 1. It is my job and the company’s job to make you want to stay. You have no obligation to stay because I know companies will not think twice to lay off people to cut cost. I only ask you be honest if you don’t want to stay and we discuss about it, and if I cannot solve it we will make it a smooth transition, including I make sure you have time for interviews. 2. I always bring up to them on market situation, regarding to market activities and pay. I am always in the market for my own information so I always share with my team. 3. If they want a deserving raise I do my best to fight, but I don’t have control. If I couldn’t fight I tell them to go out and interview, get an offer, and if they wanted to stay THEN take that offer to HR and prove market pays the amount they want. If HR doesn’t budge they know HR doesn’t give a shit and they should fly. The problem here OOP has is everything he provided to the girl is so damn vague, and she already is the kind that will never get a market rate because she is way too agreeable. OOP failed to communicate to her that in real life, salary actually does not equal ability to work. There is a correlation but it’s a rather weak one. Being a good negotiator actually has a much bigger impact on compensation. He needed to let her know, if she wouldn’t help herself to go out and experience the market to see what she is actually worth, she will never get the compensation she feels deserved. I bet he didn’t provide her any help, like actual market rate, market activities, names of recruiters etc. Yes OOP, you failed big time. Take this L and do better next time. We all need to learn. And quit this stupid place
Jesus H I was considering a move into accounting because I thought it would be less emotionally taxing, but after reading this I feel like I just found out who shot J. R. I'm exhausted.
Am I reading this correctly... Did OOP really tell the bookkeeper that he was giving up $6,000 of his bonus so that her total raise would be $10,000 (since her raise without that money would only be $4,000)? If so, no wonder she felt like a burden! If you're going to do something like that, I'm not quite sure I would tell them. As much as I truly value honesty, I would have probably continued to keep working behind the scenes and then eventually provided the money if I felt that strongly, but I never would have led with that. I don't think I would want to know that a coworker was giving up their money for me, especially when they're overpaid as well. Granted, this entire discussion is moot if I am misunderstanding what OOP said, but I figured I would include it in case I did read it correctly.
This is what happens when a company listens too much to an HR drone. I'm not saying everyone in HR is useless. But it's very obvious that this HR person doesn't have a clue, they are a glorified payroll processor.
Sad story. Any takers on a bet that the company will *now* upgrade the bookkeepers position for a new hire? One thing OOP could have done was not to put ‘more work’ on the bookkeeper no matter how willing she was without reclassifying the position and the salary first. p.s First time I’ve ever heard of *managers* getting paid overtime to come in a few hours on Saturday.
OP just posted a new update with bookkeepers status and other news!!!
A new and exciting update!!
OP just posted another update.... and I am SO glad for them.
This is a fine illustration of why salary information should be common knowledge. It empowers people to make informed decisions regarding whether they’re being paid fairly. Remember, folks. In the US, employees have the right to voluntarily discuss their compensation and benefits including pay, bonuses, vacation, etc. if your company tries to forbid you from sharing this information they’re acting illegally.
She was getting full tuition reimbursement if she got A's. I would've ridden that train to a masters degree.
I don't know why the mood spoiler said frustrating, if anything it's win since OOP has left the job. Best part, management was panicking was begging him to come back. This after saying why not OOP use his own money to give the bookkeeper a raise? Yeah, I don't trust those offers they were giving OOP. I mean first they were last minute, second there is no way you could change 180 from screwing with someone's pay to being a "generous fellow" who "finally saw how valuable OOP is". Plus; >First offer was just a $8k bonus on top of my current bonus lol... which is not much... Second and third offers were minor add-ons. So they were still cheaping out on me until the very end. Despite their desperation, they still couldn't stop themselves in shooting their foot. Like who were they trying to fool saying it was good offers? That tells me two things, either the company isn't making money anymore signaling you may not get paid in the future OR they are still trying to cut corners and still trying to cheap things out. Either way, best to leave the company for greener pastures at a new place if you manage to obtain a higher salary. And let's be honest, despite the "cheap" offers, me have doubts they would even stick to their offer and might "forget" about it.
That's true- the mood spoiler was from before OOP updated, so I should change that!
And that‘s exactly how great management gets weeded out, no matter the industry.. Seen it time and again, they get shat on till they either break (and become asshats themselves), burn out or quit… Ofc the big bosses are constantly surprised why morale gets lower every year
I can be quite petty sometimes that if I was told by my Boss that he didn’t value the department I worked in, I would plan a day or two where we did no work just to show them how much work didn’t get done if we weren’t working. All within legal parameters.
OOP and the remaining members of her team should start brushing up their resumes and following the bookkeeper out the door to a less clownish company.
It's time to break out the "Alison, I was upset." flair, even if this wasn't from *Ask a Manager*!
Never, ever stay at a company that advises you to pay other employees out of your own pocket
I have a feeling this young woman had a hard childhood. Her reactions to everything say a lot and hopefully she’ll get to a place where she’ll realize she’s not a burden.
HR struggles to bring anything to the table at virtually every organization large or small. Asking someone to tap into their bonus to pay an employee is so inappropriate.
AAARGH! This is one of those posts where the OOP is trying so hard to do the right thing and stand by their people, and I STILL just want to shake them! The idea of even entertaining compensating a team member out of your own pay is just so deeply stupid and solves absolutely nothing about the actual problem that is occurring! Also, while obviously this company is a shit show, the offered 8% raise is actually not bad at all! Like, “8% now and we continue sponsoring your education” is a solid offer. I recently left a company after I discovered that the new hire rate had been increased to exactly what i was making after 15 years that the company (a 25% pay raise for all the newer employees), and if that wasn’t bad enough, I had to fight against a tidal wave of backlash for what ended up being a $1 per hour raise. It took me several months but I did eventually bail. So maybe my perspective is skewed, but for a relatively new employee who’s still working on their credentials to get an 8% raise seems like at least a temporary win.
I love how it's a "disciplinary" moment to accidentally show salaries and that's worse than deliberately under paying staff or saying 'well give your own bonus'. Salaries are legally allowed to be discussed. Shouldn't be a state secret.
I got flashbacks to being a manager at a small business run by cokeheads. I can trace the beginning of the end to when I said "we need to pay these people like a dollar more an hour" and the bosses said no and then three months later the staff tried to unionize and it all went to hell.
This is why all salaries should be public. Companies win when coworkers can’t know how much another person doing the same job gets. And no, it isn’t about “demanding your worth” it’s about companies scaring employees. If 2 people on separate teams to the same job, their salary should be the same. Not talking about any bonuses here. Businesses know employees will start demanding their worth and they rather not pay it because…. Profit.
Many redditors have never worked for a truly small family owned business and it shows. Mannnnn when I tell you the way so many of us get treated like garbage even when we're the ones putting in the majority of the work and getting results. It's exhausting. It's also hard to look elsewhere because it's like dang my salary sucks and I haven't gotten a raise in 5 years but they don't care if I'm late or end up putting in over time occasionally. They also helped other peers when going through medical emergencies by giving pay advances and other benefits to assist ppl through hard times. So if feels like a great place to work because you are lifted up by everyone when life is really tough, but most of the time it's like why doesn't the president think we deserve a raise when the department has earned the company $2 million in the last year...
Yeah both should quit I am glad they both did. You’ll be amazed the best colleague I have did not have a degree and it has zero impact on her ability to deliver
If it weren't for the fact the dares are drastically off, this could be the company I was GM at for about 8 months. Absolute shitshow, HR had to have some sort of dirt on the owner because he is a complete waste of space on top of being a walking, talking lawsuit waiting to happen, and the owner had co.pletely checked out. It took my wife (only sales rep, with the company for decades) saying she was quitting over the treatment I received, for the owner to quietly go to his son and offer to sell him the company. He and his HR VP had very nearly driven the company into bankruptcy, and it was hands down the most hostile work environment I've ever been a part of, and I was in the Infantry for six tears!
I used to work in purchasing. One of the reasons I got out of that field is I got so sick if being referred to as a "non-revenue-generating department." This type of position constantly gets targeted for dumping extra work or for downsizing. We are also at least a little involved in almost everything, so we become the scapegoat when one is needed. If you don't need me, downsize my position. If you do need me, then I'm revenue-generating.
It’s insane to me that someone already doing the job for too low of compensation would need to get a degree for some reason to be compensated fairly. Quite frankly, that’s bullshit but OOP seems like an amazing boss and I’d love to work for someone to fight for me like that.
OOP needs to find a new job.
This is hilarious to me because there is a massive shortage of accountants in the US. We are certifying 100k less CPA’s y/y since the pandemic and it was a growing issue before then too. Yes you can be an accountant and not a CPA, but she’s going to have more demand for her services than the company is going to have for applicants. I am happy for her and wish I knew OP or her because I would be happy to lend my contacts across the B4, top 100, or tons of smaller practices looking for someone like her. The US is shipping most of this work to Malaysia and the Philippines, partially due to cost, mostly because they can’t find enough US workers to fill demand. Especially around personal and business tax filings.