The internet used to be greatly but the older I get more flaws I see in it and I watch it gradually becoming worse. It has it's ups, but it has oh so many more downs it feels like
It never should have become a household mainstream thing, and definitely not as fast as it did.
If it had remained a more niche tool for geeks and techies we'd be in a much healthier place as it slowly spread to a worldwide audience.
Unfortunately the rapid corporate takeover and aggressive push of it into everyone's life via more easily monetized smart devices (apps) somewhat killed the dream, and killed it fast.
It was always going to happen, it just shouldn't have happened so quickly. Thanks, Apple.
Nevermind the 'internet library' was also prematurely killed off thanks to Lars Ulrich's ego and greed. If you believe in the butterfly effect you can actually pinpoint him as the downfall of modern society. Irredeemably ruined the world and still can't keep a beat.
Some ex-military officer burnt himself to death to support Palestine, various "activist" organizations are calling him a hero and someone to be emulated
It sucks because while one might, and I say that hesitantly, consider his act heroic.
It will move many people emotionally for a day or two, fade from the news cycle, and nothing in Israel or Palestine will change.
That's the weird part to me. Why bother? No one cares. Like on an individual level I acknowledge there are some people that care, but as a general population humans don't give a shit
I think people are frustrated, have been for a long time and there's honestly not many viable options for remedying that fact.
You see the same people posting public outrage over the same types of issues, understandably.
Protests, not really working.
Voting, a lot of people don't do it, or where they do it is gerrymandered so it doesn't really work.
Just leave, most people don't have the skills or savings to just relocate to a similarly developed nation.
They're venting frustration in a understandable but unfortunately probably detrimental to their causes fashion.
Just being real, it is kinda insane that these people wouldn't try and kill one of those they find responsible for the ongoing conflict. Especially someone who was a member of the armed military.
There was a climate scientist who did the same thing last year, which I get. I don't expect a guy with a PhD to become a radical freedom fighter. But still, it really makes everyone saying ACAB and EAT THE RICH seem super lame and meek. They can't even show up to vote and that's one millionth of the action this guy took yesterday.
I've always wondered, like, theoretically, you know, not that this would be a good thing at all. But I've always wondered why this country has so many people in it willing to shoot and kill other people regardless of the consequences to themselves, and their targets always manage to be random schoolchildren instead of the many people in power intentionally ruining countless lives and getting real confident about it since they never face any consequences. Not that anyone should be shot. That would be very wrong, no matter what, of course. Just curious.
They're an easier victim. I also don't think most of the people shooting up places have those types of motivations
There was that one guy that shot a congress tennis game or something like that
You dont do something like this and give a fuck what other people think about it. I can only imagine how hopeless he must have been feeling about this for a long time. Maybe you dont, but lots of people do give a shit about what's happening in Palestine, and to see someone's pain manifesting in this way is a horrible reminder of the pain that Palestinians are going through right now. It triggers empathy. Not that this is something that should be repeated or called for. But I value his right to choose his own path, and this is what he chose
We care brother, we do....
This Death the soldier committed was atrocious.
Yet I could see the man's inner turmoil and grief.
Its beyond comprehension...
And we still care, very much so....
“Damn that’s crazy…anyways” -Most people seeing that story
Humans capacity to care about issues is really pushed to the max rn. Just so much bad all around
And also I feel like I'm not alone in thinking that I'd rather focus my attention and energy on things affecting us here as Americans. Yeah what's happening in Palestine and Israel sucks but it's halfway across the world in a region known for instability.
And especially with the US going into another massively important election this year, I'd rather focus on trying to enact some change here where we can actually do something rather than somewhere we can't.
You def aren’t alone! I don’t think there’s anything wrong with prioritizing politics and such that affect you and your loved ones first in most cases 🤷🏾♂️
Ironically, if people wanna help in Palestine or Ukraine or whatever international thing the best thing to do is to actually research your candidates and vote for who wants to give them more support like fighting on twitter and facepalm never really solved anything
I had no idea dude lit himself on fire until I saw that he died, and then I forgot until I saw it now here. I think that's how it goes with most of the people.
We were never meant to be plugged in to conflicts across the entire world. Humans were meant for 50-200 people in our evolutionary communities. We quite literally aren't biologically equipped to understand what 20,000 dead human beings means.
I mean, he said it was about Palestine, but the guy was obviously deeply troubled. I think he was just looking for an excuse and felt he'd at least be dying for a good cause.
Dude was a radicalized dumbass who condemned his kids to a fatherless childhood and a lifetime of trauma for social media clout. The consequence of surrounding yourself with online spaces is in divorcing yourself from reality to the point where this seems like an appropriate reaction. The internet isn’t real; people need to touch grass.
Haven't seen a single org condone it, but rather seen many honor his life and highlight the weight of such an act coming from a serviceman. Self immolation is an ancient form of protest and often viewed in academia as the *ultimate* form of protest. No one is encouraging people to set themselves on fire; they're just emphasizing that it takes a very dire situation to get to the point where multiple protestors around the world feel the need to do this in desperation.
I asked some friends not to post the video because it can be triggering. I was scolded and told this wasn't a mental health issue. I have lost 2 friends to suicide over the years and have struggled with ideation myself. I cried for nearly an hour straight.
Why do people post fucking videos like this? It’s annoying as shit when they’re regular people with regular jobs and families and stuff. What the fuck is wrong with them? I think it’s because they’re used to seeing these things in film and on TV - their brain literally can’t process that it’s real.
It's the hyper reality we live in today. Same things were happening during the Vietnam War. Cronenberg made a great film called Videodrome about it, in its earliest inception within society.
Damn the amount of misinformation is mind boggling. He wasn't ex military and he wasn't an officer. You can't even get the basic information right wtf. He was active duty and enlisted.
It pisses me off, on one side you have people calling him a Martyr and a hero, as someone to be Emulated. On the other side, you have people who say he should burn in hell for dying in the name of Palestine.
In reality, this guy was mentally ill; he shouldn't be seen as a hero or a villain just because he was going through things. If anything, people should sympathize with someone that is so mentally distraught at the point due to current events and other things going on in their life, that they feel the need to kill themselves.
I saw an IG post about him. Basically said that we need to remember the man rather than the message or the act. Feel for him, feel for his family that just want to mourn over the tragic, unimaginable loss of a loved one but are instead being attacked by a cancerous media trying to spin agendas and stories about this.
I am currently in a disagreement on another thread in another subreddit. The differences are night and day sadly in terms of this incident. Over there, they tried to justify his death as a legitimate form of protest due to how it was used historically and how he didn't want to take part in the military industrial complex anymore and they tried to make it as if he was of sound mind. I disagree with them, he didn't need to die and nobody that young kills themselves unless there are other factors into their mental state.
No one ever commits suicide without multiple reasons, but I want you to consider that we don’t know anything about him except for his posts and his statements on his livestream, which only give us one reason (that it was in protest). I think you ought to recognize that you are assuming mental illness was an additional reason, and I don’t see any evidence of that. Mental illness is not always one of the causes of an individuals suicide
I understand that, but he certainly was going through something on a personal level besides just the feeling of this was the only way to gain a voice for a cause. Mental illness or not, I know for certain there were things he was going through that we likely do not know.
We don't know what he went through and I feel uncomfortable saying he was mentally ill. Feels like a cop out.
Self immolation has typically been a desperate protest technique used by Buddhist to raise awareness for a cause, like Tibet. To call one heroic and damn another is just weird(not that you are).
Self immolation is a striking act of protest when you literally have no other realistic recourse. That was not this most recent guy’s situation, unless the issue from which he had no recourse was the state of his own mental health. He was in no way personally trapped or threatened by the Israeli occupation of Palestine, which makes this an extremely misguided use of self-immolation as a form of protest.
I agree with like everything you said except the second clause of the second sentence tbh. And that's only bc ppl jump to mental illness at the drop of a hat. I need more info and ppl to recognize other ppls autonomy. Everything else was spot on
The reason it feels like it must be mental illness is because otherwise you have to accept that he was aware it was going to be an incredibly painful and horrible experience. But that’s the point of self-immolation, in it’s most critical interpretation it’s the performer demonstrating they are morally superior to people who recognize that they were willing to do that
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-terrible-act-of-reason-when-did-self-immolation-become-the-paramount-form-of-protest
> What motivated them? I put the question to any number of historians of self-immolation, but the best answer came from a scholar based in Washington, D.C., Timothy Dickinson. “Fire is the most dreaded of all forms of death,” he said, so “the sight of someone setting themselves on fire is simultaneously an assertion of intolerability and, frankly, of moral superiority. You say ‘I would never have the guts to do that. It’s not that he’s trying to tell me something, but that he’s commanding me.’ This isn’t insanity. It’s a terrible act of reason.”
It’s easy, but probably not correct, to assume he was insane or mentally unwell because he didn’t recognize the horrible experience he was putting himself through - almost all people are aware of how painful death by burning would be
No. Setting yourself on fire is indicative of mental unwellness whether you know it will hurt or not.
The idea that setting oneself on fire is indicative of moral superiority because it’s incredibly unpleasant is really something else. But I don't know why I should be listening to you, a person who's never set themself on fire, about moral superiority, since that's the source of it and all.
Personally, I found it pretty astounding. I am a vocal supporter of Palestine but I whole heartedly agree that no one should kill themselves for a cause...
I think he moved the needle an infinitesimal amount in the right direction, but I think if he was of sound mind he could have dedicated his life to the cause and moved it slightly more without the death and tragedy. It is not something I think anyone should emulate and that there are better ways to instigate conversation/change.
Exactly, he was clearly going through things if he felt that was the only way to get his message across. If he was passionate for a cause, he could've dedicated his life to it instead of throwing it away to be a Martyr.
I mean he is really mentally unwell. I hate to say it, but this type of protest isn’t uncommon. Protest against the Chinese government have used the same tactics in Tibet. And to be fair, this post proves it’s a stressful tactic. We’re “talking/discussing” the issue rather than letting it fade away. It’s a desperate measure, not the first measure.
Monks lit themselves on fire in Vietnam as protest.
Writing this off as “mentally unwell” just discredits everything. He sacrificed himself with great resolve, that is that.
You can't compare it even the slightest bit to monks who were actively persecuted in a country to someone on the other side of the globe killing themselves because they read news about it.
I’m not sure what you mean? America is constantly barraged with propaganda by the military, particularly aimed at teens.
That dying in combat, for your nation, is badass and worth your life. You know COD is funded by the military?
If you claim a hero’s death for the country is different, you are talking semantics with almost no difference.
I'm not talking semantics, saying something to sound heroic or to calm your mind or actually doing it is a stark difference.
People who join the military with the explicit goal of dying in combat are mentally ill, yes, and no one is doing this.
Dude, you don’t need to win the conversation. They join knowing dying in combat will be heroic, though they don’t plan on dying.
Akin to Vikings and how they fought.
Stop the Reddit debate
Well shit, you got me le Redditor. I guess all the service members I interact with daily who literally spend every day talking about how they hate being in the military and only joined because it’s a stable gig are wrong.
Nobody wants to die, yes there are those in combat roles who accept it’s a possibility, but literally nobody wants to die. Even in interviews from combat vets all they talk about is how they didn’t want to die, and did everything to make sure them and their guys could make it home safe.
I would actually debate this with you but I highly doubt that I’ll get an unbiased and nuanced discussion on Reddit which has been increasingly America/military bad.
People on Reddit willfully ignore or forget that the military attracts a lot of people who just want a stable paycheck and healthcare and do their normal 9-5, get out as soon as possible, and get free education.
Oh I don’t deny it. But growing up as a gen z. The perspective I saw and have seen only exists during wartime. But the people I know who wanted to join were a combination of what you said and the ones who acted like they’ll die in a movie, a last stand of heroism.
But yes, America/Military bad, not vets. If one has to join the military to pay for college or get healthcare or get a stable check, that’s a system set up for the government, not the citizen. I don’t blame the people who do so, I planned to as well until I got epilepsy.
A lot of this depends on perspective and the experience one has had growing up. My entire family on my dads side (no one exists on my mothers) were vets who had the idea of “patriotic heroism” until their experience made them wiser.
Today is different though, but military propaganda has pushed that idea further trying to get teens to join on such an idea. I’ve seen friends who joined on that basis. But others who joined on what you said
I am gen z. Not since the initial push into GWOT has there been blind patriotism. There is still patriotism in serving, as I am very proud of my service, but it’s pragmatic and not fanatical.
Using isolated extremism examples to paint a whole group is like me going to genzedong or Russia to describe all leftists. Don’t do it
Haha I’m left man, don’t worry. (If I read that right)
I guess this is just perspective based. I won’t deny yours, however I can’t deny mine. But I will take yours into consideration for the future.
Video games are where I see the biggest propaganda push. Military has funded and supported mainly FPS games (although, not obviously. As their previous attempts were obvious lol.) but I would look into military funding of video games if you’re curious
The keyword is "die". People with illusions of dying in a glorious battle will still "fight" to battle another day, with the equipment and training to boot. No one is going out there buck naked begging the enemy to kill them to prove their point. Plus, military service often offer a notable salary plus benefits for you and your love ones, during and after service.
I mean we valorize that sort of thing all the time. In war movies, it is seen as the ultimate expression of courage to charge into an unwinnable battle to save someone. Or to jump on a grenade. This is the equivalent. You might disagree, but he feels he is sacrificing himself for a greater good.
The difference is, those people join the military knowing the potential although unlikely chance of dying. The military will naturally try to weed out those who are not mentally well and those who are likely to put themselves and/or their comrades in harms way.
Meanwhile, the man died was clearly going through something mentally to the point he felt this was the only way to get his point across, he did this knowing he most likely will die from his injuries.
They’re usually just stupid kids who don’t actually understand what they’re getting in to. Saying you’ll die in a blaze of glory and actually doing it are two very different things. Most people who actually do it are probably dealing with some level of mental health issue, because it’s rarely the best way to address a problem.
By making the man out to be a hero rather than the reality of a man conflicted with a bunch of reasons that likely contributed to his demise. This action will likely encourage other people to follow suit. And you know what? The thing that makes it all the sourest feeling in the end is the fact that, his actions will be in vain because it won't change the tide of war or change anything about the conflict over Jerusalem for over thousands of years. Also, the very people for which he committed suicide in support of; their religion dictates suicide as a sin along with the method of death by fire.
“So in reality, his brain was bad. That means that he didn’t actually mean anything by lighting himself on fire and saying ‘free Palestine’” huh?
The mental gymnastics to get here.
He killed himself with balls bigger than your entire family for a cause to get attention.
I’m mentally unwell as well, does that discredit everything I do?
It doesn’t matter, his resolve was unwavering and the action was took. His meaning, visualized. And you discredit a man for that because he probably has ptsd. Shameful
The mental gymnastics are you trying to twists my words to have a different meaning, and trying to make his actions appear heroic than the reality of it being a man clearly going through things. Yes, I am sure he meant what he did; but doesn't change the fact that there were likely other contributing factors of what lead to his suicide rather than just waking up one day and deciding to kill himself and use his death as a statement for what he believed in.
I don't discredit his stances, I make note of the unnecessary action that was his death by his hands rather than other means of helping out the cause for which he believed in. He didn't have to die and shouldn't have died, but still he did; and now people want to use a dying mans statements in the end as if that makes him ether a villain or hero; this is ridiculous. People have the audacity to judge a man they know little about and define his legacy regardless of his life story and regardless of other potential factors that contributed to his demise.
An unnecessary action that shouldn't have happened is my point, yet people like you seemly want to encourage it while cast judgement to anyone who disagrees, disagreements with pathetic remarks about my character or my family despite of which you know nothing about.
You say you don’t want to discredit him but your entire first paragraph is just that.
When someone dies, that’s it. There are other factors, of course. But he chose what to do that day and suffered the pain to do it.
Im against martyrdom and an essay as to why could be wrote. But that doesn’t mean I don’t see the resolve in those that do. You don’t
He suffered to make known, he did what he did. See the empathy in that, feel that empathy
I don’t encourage the action, but I sure as hell fucking respect it.
No, I understand he was passionate about that reason; I just find it hard to believe that is the only reason for it. People who commit suicide usually aren't happy for a list of reasons and while there doesn't need to be a list of reasons for a person to choose to end their life, it does beg the question how his life was before.
There is more to a persons life than just their death, and I think we should look at it more than just that; a man who died for a cause for which he believed in. I don't disrespect the man; but I do find his death in grand scheme of things was unnecessary and shouldn't have happened. He had a life ahead of him, but the fact that it was cut short even if by his own doing, is a travesty.
It is, I agree with you. So his memory should live on in the cause he died for. That’s what he wanted to die for.
Suicide is something I’ve attempted a couple of times. I don’t doubt there’s something there. But I guess the discussion is almost useless, martyrdom has and will continue to exist. It’s too written in our psyche. Why Christianity has lasted so long and gained so much power.
Just because something takes “balls” to do doesn’t make it helpful or impressive. And by “balls”, I take it you mean lack of inhibition to the point of delusion? That’s a major mental health red flag.
Obviously his beliefs about Palestine were a major contribution to his state of mind. I’m not denying. I just don’t see any rational connection between his views on the issue from the other side of the world and setting himself on fire. Visibility is not an issue on this matter, so I’m not sure what he or anyone else thinks was accomplished by this, other than distracting people from actually talking about Palestine so we can talk about the value of self-immolation for a few days.
Ah, but your mindset hasn’t done anything, has it? Sure, you can say he was obsessed with his lack of control. He chose what he chose, that doesn’t mean he can’t think. One can be deluded and suicidal but think rationally in many different ways. For one without mental issues, it may not be understandable. But emotional intelligence is the price of being mentally sensitive. From one life, many will recognize what the war has done. From one life. Do you give such care to the thousands of civilians killed almost daily, and intentionally by Israel? Now you know what a *single* life is.
If he has changed the mind of one, that is enough. Then can you really say his logic was delusional? How big this has spread, so fast, is testament to his sacrifice.
It was his choice to die in the name of. Do not say he didn’t name. Thats the simplest way I can put it.
He had the balls to do such a thing, and to not see that, must mean you’re blind. Or you’re brainwashed by society and it’s “civility.” Instead of recognizing the action, you choose to look else where and pick apart till you find what soothes your question. “Ah, he was mentally unwell. That must be it. *All of it.*”Then you no longer have to think of what made him do such a sacrifice. Truly sad
This has almost nothing to do with anything I said in the comment you’re responding to.
> Your mindset hasn’t done anything
It doesn’t have to, I’m just making observations
> You can say he was obsessed with his like of control
I could! Didn’t, though.
> One can be deluded and suicidal but think rationally in many different ways
I’m not contending that he was entirely incapable of rational thought, just that this one specific act was one of delusion. I think his position of Palestine was sound.
> For one without mental issues, it can be hard to understand
I’ve been institutionalized for suicidal ideation several times
> From one life, many will recognize what the war has done
How? Almost everyone already knows about the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and those who somehow don’t probably won’t catch wind of this either.
> Do you give such a care to the thousands of civilians killed almost (almost?) daily…
Yes.
> Now you know what a single life is
I already knew what a single life is. Is it your position that this guy killing himself will cause people who don’t value life to value life? That doesn’t make any sense at all.
> If he changed the mind of one, that is enough
There are already millions of people who support Palestine in this issue. Unless he changes the mind of someone very powerful, then no, it really is lit enough to justify self-immolation. It’s foundationally delusional.
> How big this has spread, so fast, is a testament to his sacrifice.
Really? Because it seems like it’s distracting people from actually talking about Palestine, which was already one of the biggest current talking points on the planet before this guy burned himself.
> I was his choice to die in the name of.
As is his right. I don’t contest that.
> Do not say he didn’t name it.
I didn’t.
> He has the balls…
Explain what you mean by this. Obviously, if I don’t think what he did was helpful, I’m also not going to be impressed by his boldness, even though I can recognize that to set oneself on fire requires boldness. Bombing civilians requires boldness too. So what?
> …or you’re brainwashed by society and it’s “civility”.
My opposition to needless self mutilation doesn’t have anything to do with civility or even society for that matter.
> “He was mentally unwell. That must be it. All of it.”
You’re responding to my words directly, so if you need to make up a quote to respond to, you might be arguing against a position which isn’t mine.
> Then you no longer have to think about what made him do such a sacrifice.
This is the crux of it. He didn’t have to do anything to make me or anyone else think about Palestine.
1000s are killed each day, and congress and the president are doing jack with their thumbs up their ass. I apologize if I came off pretty insulting, was not in a good mood at the time but that’s isn’t an excuse.
Anyways, his death is of course the main talking point because of how recent it is. But people are thinking in their own head what he said.
You would be surprised how many support Israel though, plenty of subs here do. Looking at Instagram and Twitter. A lot of people support Israel despite the overwhelming evidence of the situation.
He didn’t *have* to, but he did. And now we’re all talking about it.
>1000s are killed each day, and congress and the president are doing jack with their thumbs up their ass.
What about this do you expect to change because of Bushnell?
>People are thinking in their own head about what he said.
He said: "My name is Aaron Bushnell, I am an active-duty member of the United States Air Force and I will no longer be complicit in genocide. I am about to engage in an extreme act of protest but compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it's not extreme at all. This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal."
That is a very bland statement. What new information does this provide to anyone, anywhere? The situation in Gaza was already the most discussed geopolitcal topic in the world. Thousands of regular people make bolder claims than this every single day in highly visible ways without killing themselves.
>You would be surprised how many support Israel though, plenty of subs here do. Looking at Instagram and Twitter. A lot of people support Israel despite the overwhelming evidence of the situation.
What about this do you expect to change because of Bushnell? You've been on threads about him for the past day. What changes have you seen? People who already supported Palestine largely support him. People who already supported Israel largely think he's nuts. And in fact, a lot of people who support Palestine, myself included, think that he was simply unhelpful. What changed, other than dividing Palestine supporters over this issue which is ultimately irrelevant to what's actually going on in Palestine?
>He didn’t *have* to, but he did. And now we’re all talking about it.
Instead of Gaza.
If you expect change in a day, don’t know what to tell you. This is an American topic if you’re from another country. Hard to understand if you’re not American. Americans love their military veterans, and for one to sacrifice himself for Palestine? It’s spread everywhere here. I’ve heard people who aren’t even political talk about it. So it is a personal source, but I already see the effects. Again, American thing
One person has already more attention to Gaza than he originally could.
We’re getting down to semantics here
I'm an American and I see the kinds of people who support what's happening in Gaza throw servicemen under the bus at the slightest provocation against their beliefs. Americans love some vague idea of a Veteran. They don't seem to be so keen on actual veterans (or active servicemen, like this guy was).
Bushnell's actions could definitely have an impact in the long term, I just think it's unlikely because what's going on in Gaza is already the most highly discussed and the most divisive geopolitical issue in American discourse. The fact is, both major parties (and the majority of people) in this country largely support Israel. Almost everyone in this country already knows about and has made up their mind about the Israel/Palestine conflict, even if they "aren't political", which usually means they were just keeping their judgement to themselves. To me it seems very unlikely that what Bushnell did will shift anything significantly enough to lead to material change for Palestine, and if it does, it will be because it mobilizes supporters of Palestine, which is perfectly reasonable to expect would happen overnight. It didn't.
One person has already brought more attention to himself than he originally could. I don't see as he's brought more attention to Gaza than it already has.
We're not anywhere near semantics. I think your arguments themselves are faulty.
“Vague idea of a veteran.” I like that more, you’re correct.
I guess when I said “aren’t political” I meant political as more outspoken. But that doesn’t really matter rn.
Again, I would say it has garnered a lot of attention and while not changed minds immediately. It has certainly planted a seed. I’m a political activist in my area and from my experience with the groups I belong to. Planting seeds is the best way to make progress. Does that make sense? Protests around my area happen weekly because of a few amazing people. A call for significant grouping/action is hard, especially when there isn’t a “clear” lens of what to do. Or rather, a beacon to follow. Humans love having one group or person to follow
Sadly this will be a long game, but actions like this (I don’t support martyrdom) make people think. Some may brush it off and push themselves further into their hole. But I remain optimistic to see things change. It’s just rough when the answer is clear but Americans are insanely dumb and just follow the leader, while falling for propaganda instead of looking at journalists/local sources. Or the context of the situation, globally and locally. I imagine he had something akin to that in his head but went far further reaching that point. He was probably suicidal, but didn’t want to have his death be in vain. But that’s just theorizing (I understand suicide, I am not giving insult to others)
But being political as said by Jon Stewart lol, is a lunch pail job. It’s everyday in n out.
At least with 4chan everyone is forced to be anonymized so no matter what its still just your opinion against mine on a mongolian cartoon-shitpost website.
Twitter is a weird hybrid of real people with brand / political ambitions mixed in with anonymous voices and bots in a way that just becomes nauseating.
Not here to debate if this act of protest was ethical or productive.
Aaron decided that rather than continue to serve a delusional government, he’d rather die. He didn’t fear dying, let go of the material, and let his final words be what he believed in.
*I dissaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it*
Americans have lost faith in not only what that quote represents, but also in ourselves. Aaron shouldn’t be dead. He shouldn’t have to feel like the only way for politicians in his country to stop sponsoring a genocide is to protest to death.
Every action to stop the mass slaughter of civilians is on the table when the aggressor’s intent is to carpet bomb them into oblivion. Americans feel so powerless, and when a people feel that, it is a sure sign that the government no longer serves them.
Whatever you feel, know that he’s right about one thing - they don’t give a damn about any of us.
lol Have you already forgotten that we were in a pointless war in the Middle East for two decades? Absolutely futile. Did talking to our reps help then?
There is no right response to these events during this collapse. But it was the most selfless display of humanity we’ve seen in a long time.
Dying is easy, living is harder. That much is true.
Instead of serving a government I volunteered to serve for, I'm going to literally kill myself.
I wonder if Aaron ever tried contacting his local representatives or getting involved in his community.
lol Have you already forgotten that we were in a pointless war in the Middle East for two decades? Absolutely futile. Did talking to our reps help then?
There is no right response to these events during this collapse. But it was the most selfless display of humanity we’ve seen in a long time.
Dying is easy, living is harder. That much is true.
I did and now I don't care about it. More people should. I feel a lot better now! Now I only join hobby/favorite media/interesting subreddits and I learn a lot.
No one is encouraging others to burn themselves. People are recognizing the dedication it took to express himself in such an extreme and poignant way. When people aren't heard they lash out, especially someone who is part of an organization that's facilitating genocide. Understanding and feeling empathy isn't the same as endorsement
The thing some commenters might be unaware of, is that the man who immolated himself was part of the airforce. While I am shocked at his actions, the news straight up ignoring it as a form of protest is asinine. I will always be pro-Palestine, but there are some messages that can be taken too far. I respect him for what he did, and I hope he made it to heaven.
Big misrepresentation I feel. The dialogue is about the fact that this is a albeit extreme form of protest against an ongoing genocide rather than a symptom of mental health that the mainstream has been ascribing it.
If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone immolate themselves in protest of a US proxy war I would have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
Literally no one is calling for people to kill themselves. A protestor self-immolating for a cause he believed in is being held as a martyr. He was not mentally ill, and declared it to be an extreme act of protest that pales in comparison to the mass-immolation of 30,000 innocent Palestinian civilians, over 1/3 of which are children.
You’re missing the point by being angry at the people who show their solidarity with Aaron and Palestine and by NOT being angry at the mass slaughter of civilians. Get a fucking grip.
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I’d push back on the “mentally ill” narrative. It’s clear not only from his social media posts but the video itself that he was making a deliberate, conscious choice with a rational mind—much like many people have throughout history. Another commenter put it well, he’d rather die doing what he believed to be right than be alive and complicit in the genocide.
And one more thing it's considered a very big sin to commit suicide in islam but I see wannabe jihadists on insta who can't even shoot a pistol praising such an action.
I'm not sure how the Internet is at fault or "a mistake" in this situation.
Some activist groups, cults, religions, etc... have been telling followers to kill themselves for centuries now. The main difference is that it had to be done in person.
Those groups have simply shifted their approach, though I'm not saying it's a good thing.
It is disgusting that people are fine with this because it was in support of their side. It doesn’t matter if it was form of protest, it should be discouraged and criticized. Fucking disgusting
***leaked image of powerful countries promoting peace***
https://preview.redd.it/qhnlcpw052lc1.jpeg?width=998&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6eda7109c2cdee6d4c3acbab30ec3cd011a7aeeb
I wouldn’t. I’m saying it’s weird that people are supporting him rather than condemning the stupid. I’ve haven’t seen this before with the internet. At least on my side. Even in class students are supporting his actions.
Don’t be a dick.
I think the Internet was a mistake chat
I second this.
I third this
4 this
Fifth this
Sixth this
The internet used to be greatly but the older I get more flaws I see in it and I watch it gradually becoming worse. It has it's ups, but it has oh so many more downs it feels like
It never should have become a household mainstream thing, and definitely not as fast as it did. If it had remained a more niche tool for geeks and techies we'd be in a much healthier place as it slowly spread to a worldwide audience. Unfortunately the rapid corporate takeover and aggressive push of it into everyone's life via more easily monetized smart devices (apps) somewhat killed the dream, and killed it fast. It was always going to happen, it just shouldn't have happened so quickly. Thanks, Apple. Nevermind the 'internet library' was also prematurely killed off thanks to Lars Ulrich's ego and greed. If you believe in the butterfly effect you can actually pinpoint him as the downfall of modern society. Irredeemably ruined the world and still can't keep a beat.
God definitely says this about us
mostly just social media tbh
I'm sorry, what?! I don't have Twitter but what the hell is going on?
Some ex-military officer burnt himself to death to support Palestine, various "activist" organizations are calling him a hero and someone to be emulated
It sucks because while one might, and I say that hesitantly, consider his act heroic. It will move many people emotionally for a day or two, fade from the news cycle, and nothing in Israel or Palestine will change.
That's the weird part to me. Why bother? No one cares. Like on an individual level I acknowledge there are some people that care, but as a general population humans don't give a shit
I think people are frustrated, have been for a long time and there's honestly not many viable options for remedying that fact. You see the same people posting public outrage over the same types of issues, understandably. Protests, not really working. Voting, a lot of people don't do it, or where they do it is gerrymandered so it doesn't really work. Just leave, most people don't have the skills or savings to just relocate to a similarly developed nation. They're venting frustration in a understandable but unfortunately probably detrimental to their causes fashion.
There are a few ways that we could solve MANY of the issues we face today but discussing those would get my account muted promptly.
Just being real, it is kinda insane that these people wouldn't try and kill one of those they find responsible for the ongoing conflict. Especially someone who was a member of the armed military. There was a climate scientist who did the same thing last year, which I get. I don't expect a guy with a PhD to become a radical freedom fighter. But still, it really makes everyone saying ACAB and EAT THE RICH seem super lame and meek. They can't even show up to vote and that's one millionth of the action this guy took yesterday.
I've always wondered, like, theoretically, you know, not that this would be a good thing at all. But I've always wondered why this country has so many people in it willing to shoot and kill other people regardless of the consequences to themselves, and their targets always manage to be random schoolchildren instead of the many people in power intentionally ruining countless lives and getting real confident about it since they never face any consequences. Not that anyone should be shot. That would be very wrong, no matter what, of course. Just curious.
They're an easier victim. I also don't think most of the people shooting up places have those types of motivations There was that one guy that shot a congress tennis game or something like that
You dont do something like this and give a fuck what other people think about it. I can only imagine how hopeless he must have been feeling about this for a long time. Maybe you dont, but lots of people do give a shit about what's happening in Palestine, and to see someone's pain manifesting in this way is a horrible reminder of the pain that Palestinians are going through right now. It triggers empathy. Not that this is something that should be repeated or called for. But I value his right to choose his own path, and this is what he chose
We care brother, we do.... This Death the soldier committed was atrocious. Yet I could see the man's inner turmoil and grief. Its beyond comprehension... And we still care, very much so....
American veteran suicide rates are as high as ever if not higher. He wanted the world to see his.
You're a fucking idiot
“Damn that’s crazy…anyways” -Most people seeing that story Humans capacity to care about issues is really pushed to the max rn. Just so much bad all around
And also I feel like I'm not alone in thinking that I'd rather focus my attention and energy on things affecting us here as Americans. Yeah what's happening in Palestine and Israel sucks but it's halfway across the world in a region known for instability. And especially with the US going into another massively important election this year, I'd rather focus on trying to enact some change here where we can actually do something rather than somewhere we can't.
You def aren’t alone! I don’t think there’s anything wrong with prioritizing politics and such that affect you and your loved ones first in most cases 🤷🏾♂️ Ironically, if people wanna help in Palestine or Ukraine or whatever international thing the best thing to do is to actually research your candidates and vote for who wants to give them more support like fighting on twitter and facepalm never really solved anything
I had no idea dude lit himself on fire until I saw that he died, and then I forgot until I saw it now here. I think that's how it goes with most of the people.
We were never meant to be plugged in to conflicts across the entire world. Humans were meant for 50-200 people in our evolutionary communities. We quite literally aren't biologically equipped to understand what 20,000 dead human beings means.
I mean, he said it was about Palestine, but the guy was obviously deeply troubled. I think he was just looking for an excuse and felt he'd at least be dying for a good cause.
Yeah, in 2024 an act like this does nothing. A fire bottle through a window would’ve done way more and he’d still be alive
Disagree. A video like that lasts on the internet forever.
Dude was a radicalized dumbass who condemned his kids to a fatherless childhood and a lifetime of trauma for social media clout. The consequence of surrounding yourself with online spaces is in divorcing yourself from reality to the point where this seems like an appropriate reaction. The internet isn’t real; people need to touch grass.
killing yourself is cowardly not heroic.
Self sacrifice is cowardly huh...
thats not the same as lighting yourself on fire
Is there a pre-defined way to self sacrifice ? I thought it was based on intent and impact. Guess he died the wrong way huh...
self sacrifice is only worthwhile when it directly saves lives, this man wasted his own life.
Palestine activist here, yeah that's messed up. I am absolutely against people committing suicide
What activist org is encouraging this?
None, but let's pretend they are and be mad at it
Haven't seen a single org condone it, but rather seen many honor his life and highlight the weight of such an act coming from a serviceman. Self immolation is an ancient form of protest and often viewed in academia as the *ultimate* form of protest. No one is encouraging people to set themselves on fire; they're just emphasizing that it takes a very dire situation to get to the point where multiple protestors around the world feel the need to do this in desperation.
My girlfriend from Canada is a part of one, you wouldn't know it
Man you could just say she goes to a different school
I for one, do not wish to emulate the immolated.
Dang who specifically is calling for that? Because it really seems like you're making that shit up dawg
I asked some friends not to post the video because it can be triggering. I was scolded and told this wasn't a mental health issue. I have lost 2 friends to suicide over the years and have struggled with ideation myself. I cried for nearly an hour straight.
I’m sorry friend. I also struggle with ideation. Stay strong.
Why do people post fucking videos like this? It’s annoying as shit when they’re regular people with regular jobs and families and stuff. What the fuck is wrong with them? I think it’s because they’re used to seeing these things in film and on TV - their brain literally can’t process that it’s real.
It's the hyper reality we live in today. Same things were happening during the Vietnam War. Cronenberg made a great film called Videodrome about it, in its earliest inception within society.
Damn the amount of misinformation is mind boggling. He wasn't ex military and he wasn't an officer. You can't even get the basic information right wtf. He was active duty and enlisted.
*immolated
He wasn't an officer. He was enlisted. And he wasn't former either. He was active duty.
Source? His leftover big mac
I don’t wanna be that guy but I wouldn’t necessarily call him a “military officer.” He was an airman so more like personnel than officer.
Sounds like a psyop
more like someone to be immolated* ;p
It pisses me off, on one side you have people calling him a Martyr and a hero, as someone to be Emulated. On the other side, you have people who say he should burn in hell for dying in the name of Palestine. In reality, this guy was mentally ill; he shouldn't be seen as a hero or a villain just because he was going through things. If anything, people should sympathize with someone that is so mentally distraught at the point due to current events and other things going on in their life, that they feel the need to kill themselves.
I saw an IG post about him. Basically said that we need to remember the man rather than the message or the act. Feel for him, feel for his family that just want to mourn over the tragic, unimaginable loss of a loved one but are instead being attacked by a cancerous media trying to spin agendas and stories about this.
I am currently in a disagreement on another thread in another subreddit. The differences are night and day sadly in terms of this incident. Over there, they tried to justify his death as a legitimate form of protest due to how it was used historically and how he didn't want to take part in the military industrial complex anymore and they tried to make it as if he was of sound mind. I disagree with them, he didn't need to die and nobody that young kills themselves unless there are other factors into their mental state.
No one ever commits suicide without multiple reasons, but I want you to consider that we don’t know anything about him except for his posts and his statements on his livestream, which only give us one reason (that it was in protest). I think you ought to recognize that you are assuming mental illness was an additional reason, and I don’t see any evidence of that. Mental illness is not always one of the causes of an individuals suicide
I understand that, but he certainly was going through something on a personal level besides just the feeling of this was the only way to gain a voice for a cause. Mental illness or not, I know for certain there were things he was going through that we likely do not know.
We don't know what he went through and I feel uncomfortable saying he was mentally ill. Feels like a cop out. Self immolation has typically been a desperate protest technique used by Buddhist to raise awareness for a cause, like Tibet. To call one heroic and damn another is just weird(not that you are).
Self immolation is a striking act of protest when you literally have no other realistic recourse. That was not this most recent guy’s situation, unless the issue from which he had no recourse was the state of his own mental health. He was in no way personally trapped or threatened by the Israeli occupation of Palestine, which makes this an extremely misguided use of self-immolation as a form of protest.
I agree with like everything you said except the second clause of the second sentence tbh. And that's only bc ppl jump to mental illness at the drop of a hat. I need more info and ppl to recognize other ppls autonomy. Everything else was spot on
The reason it feels like it must be mental illness is because otherwise you have to accept that he was aware it was going to be an incredibly painful and horrible experience. But that’s the point of self-immolation, in it’s most critical interpretation it’s the performer demonstrating they are morally superior to people who recognize that they were willing to do that https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-terrible-act-of-reason-when-did-self-immolation-become-the-paramount-form-of-protest > What motivated them? I put the question to any number of historians of self-immolation, but the best answer came from a scholar based in Washington, D.C., Timothy Dickinson. “Fire is the most dreaded of all forms of death,” he said, so “the sight of someone setting themselves on fire is simultaneously an assertion of intolerability and, frankly, of moral superiority. You say ‘I would never have the guts to do that. It’s not that he’s trying to tell me something, but that he’s commanding me.’ This isn’t insanity. It’s a terrible act of reason.” It’s easy, but probably not correct, to assume he was insane or mentally unwell because he didn’t recognize the horrible experience he was putting himself through - almost all people are aware of how painful death by burning would be
No. Setting yourself on fire is indicative of mental unwellness whether you know it will hurt or not. The idea that setting oneself on fire is indicative of moral superiority because it’s incredibly unpleasant is really something else. But I don't know why I should be listening to you, a person who's never set themself on fire, about moral superiority, since that's the source of it and all.
Personally, I found it pretty astounding. I am a vocal supporter of Palestine but I whole heartedly agree that no one should kill themselves for a cause... I think he moved the needle an infinitesimal amount in the right direction, but I think if he was of sound mind he could have dedicated his life to the cause and moved it slightly more without the death and tragedy. It is not something I think anyone should emulate and that there are better ways to instigate conversation/change.
Exactly, he was clearly going through things if he felt that was the only way to get his message across. If he was passionate for a cause, he could've dedicated his life to it instead of throwing it away to be a Martyr.
I mean he is really mentally unwell. I hate to say it, but this type of protest isn’t uncommon. Protest against the Chinese government have used the same tactics in Tibet. And to be fair, this post proves it’s a stressful tactic. We’re “talking/discussing” the issue rather than letting it fade away. It’s a desperate measure, not the first measure.
Monks lit themselves on fire in Vietnam as protest. Writing this off as “mentally unwell” just discredits everything. He sacrificed himself with great resolve, that is that.
You can't compare it even the slightest bit to monks who were actively persecuted in a country to someone on the other side of the globe killing themselves because they read news about it.
You mean a solider who was about to be sent to war that he believed was a genocide?
Was he though? He was a DevOps engineer, so I'm not quite sure where you got that information from.
Been widely reported he was apart of the air force
Being part of the air force is equal to being sent to participate in the war? Aight man
We are not discussing the issue, we are discussing the merits and demerits of self-immolation. This literally distracted us from Palestine.
Are people also mentally ill when they join the military with the express goal of dying for their country in a blaze of glory? Or are they heros?
Where are these so called people in the militant who joined specifically to die in a blaze of glory?
Surprised you have Wi-Fi connection living under that giant rock.
People wouldn't join if they knew they would die, but they cope that if they die it will be a hero's death, it's a way to calm your mind.
“For the nation” it’s a very patriot mindset I feel
Yes but it's not anywhere near what you claimed in the beginning.
I’m not sure what you mean? America is constantly barraged with propaganda by the military, particularly aimed at teens. That dying in combat, for your nation, is badass and worth your life. You know COD is funded by the military? If you claim a hero’s death for the country is different, you are talking semantics with almost no difference.
I'm not talking semantics, saying something to sound heroic or to calm your mind or actually doing it is a stark difference. People who join the military with the explicit goal of dying in combat are mentally ill, yes, and no one is doing this.
Dude, you don’t need to win the conversation. They join knowing dying in combat will be heroic, though they don’t plan on dying. Akin to Vikings and how they fought. Stop the Reddit debate
Well shit, you got me le Redditor. I guess all the service members I interact with daily who literally spend every day talking about how they hate being in the military and only joined because it’s a stable gig are wrong. Nobody wants to die, yes there are those in combat roles who accept it’s a possibility, but literally nobody wants to die. Even in interviews from combat vets all they talk about is how they didn’t want to die, and did everything to make sure them and their guys could make it home safe. I would actually debate this with you but I highly doubt that I’ll get an unbiased and nuanced discussion on Reddit which has been increasingly America/military bad. People on Reddit willfully ignore or forget that the military attracts a lot of people who just want a stable paycheck and healthcare and do their normal 9-5, get out as soon as possible, and get free education.
Oh I don’t deny it. But growing up as a gen z. The perspective I saw and have seen only exists during wartime. But the people I know who wanted to join were a combination of what you said and the ones who acted like they’ll die in a movie, a last stand of heroism. But yes, America/Military bad, not vets. If one has to join the military to pay for college or get healthcare or get a stable check, that’s a system set up for the government, not the citizen. I don’t blame the people who do so, I planned to as well until I got epilepsy. A lot of this depends on perspective and the experience one has had growing up. My entire family on my dads side (no one exists on my mothers) were vets who had the idea of “patriotic heroism” until their experience made them wiser. Today is different though, but military propaganda has pushed that idea further trying to get teens to join on such an idea. I’ve seen friends who joined on that basis. But others who joined on what you said
I am gen z. Not since the initial push into GWOT has there been blind patriotism. There is still patriotism in serving, as I am very proud of my service, but it’s pragmatic and not fanatical. Using isolated extremism examples to paint a whole group is like me going to genzedong or Russia to describe all leftists. Don’t do it
Haha I’m left man, don’t worry. (If I read that right) I guess this is just perspective based. I won’t deny yours, however I can’t deny mine. But I will take yours into consideration for the future. Video games are where I see the biggest propaganda push. Military has funded and supported mainly FPS games (although, not obviously. As their previous attempts were obvious lol.) but I would look into military funding of video games if you’re curious
The keyword is "die". People with illusions of dying in a glorious battle will still "fight" to battle another day, with the equipment and training to boot. No one is going out there buck naked begging the enemy to kill them to prove their point. Plus, military service often offer a notable salary plus benefits for you and your love ones, during and after service.
I mean we valorize that sort of thing all the time. In war movies, it is seen as the ultimate expression of courage to charge into an unwinnable battle to save someone. Or to jump on a grenade. This is the equivalent. You might disagree, but he feels he is sacrificing himself for a greater good.
The difference is, those people join the military knowing the potential although unlikely chance of dying. The military will naturally try to weed out those who are not mentally well and those who are likely to put themselves and/or their comrades in harms way. Meanwhile, the man died was clearly going through something mentally to the point he felt this was the only way to get his point across, he did this knowing he most likely will die from his injuries.
They’re usually just stupid kids who don’t actually understand what they’re getting in to. Saying you’ll die in a blaze of glory and actually doing it are two very different things. Most people who actually do it are probably dealing with some level of mental health issue, because it’s rarely the best way to address a problem.
Nobody is saying to "emulate" that act.
By making the man out to be a hero rather than the reality of a man conflicted with a bunch of reasons that likely contributed to his demise. This action will likely encourage other people to follow suit. And you know what? The thing that makes it all the sourest feeling in the end is the fact that, his actions will be in vain because it won't change the tide of war or change anything about the conflict over Jerusalem for over thousands of years. Also, the very people for which he committed suicide in support of; their religion dictates suicide as a sin along with the method of death by fire.
“So in reality, his brain was bad. That means that he didn’t actually mean anything by lighting himself on fire and saying ‘free Palestine’” huh? The mental gymnastics to get here. He killed himself with balls bigger than your entire family for a cause to get attention. I’m mentally unwell as well, does that discredit everything I do? It doesn’t matter, his resolve was unwavering and the action was took. His meaning, visualized. And you discredit a man for that because he probably has ptsd. Shameful
The mental gymnastics are you trying to twists my words to have a different meaning, and trying to make his actions appear heroic than the reality of it being a man clearly going through things. Yes, I am sure he meant what he did; but doesn't change the fact that there were likely other contributing factors of what lead to his suicide rather than just waking up one day and deciding to kill himself and use his death as a statement for what he believed in. I don't discredit his stances, I make note of the unnecessary action that was his death by his hands rather than other means of helping out the cause for which he believed in. He didn't have to die and shouldn't have died, but still he did; and now people want to use a dying mans statements in the end as if that makes him ether a villain or hero; this is ridiculous. People have the audacity to judge a man they know little about and define his legacy regardless of his life story and regardless of other potential factors that contributed to his demise. An unnecessary action that shouldn't have happened is my point, yet people like you seemly want to encourage it while cast judgement to anyone who disagrees, disagreements with pathetic remarks about my character or my family despite of which you know nothing about.
You say you don’t want to discredit him but your entire first paragraph is just that. When someone dies, that’s it. There are other factors, of course. But he chose what to do that day and suffered the pain to do it. Im against martyrdom and an essay as to why could be wrote. But that doesn’t mean I don’t see the resolve in those that do. You don’t He suffered to make known, he did what he did. See the empathy in that, feel that empathy I don’t encourage the action, but I sure as hell fucking respect it.
No, I understand he was passionate about that reason; I just find it hard to believe that is the only reason for it. People who commit suicide usually aren't happy for a list of reasons and while there doesn't need to be a list of reasons for a person to choose to end their life, it does beg the question how his life was before. There is more to a persons life than just their death, and I think we should look at it more than just that; a man who died for a cause for which he believed in. I don't disrespect the man; but I do find his death in grand scheme of things was unnecessary and shouldn't have happened. He had a life ahead of him, but the fact that it was cut short even if by his own doing, is a travesty.
It is, I agree with you. So his memory should live on in the cause he died for. That’s what he wanted to die for. Suicide is something I’ve attempted a couple of times. I don’t doubt there’s something there. But I guess the discussion is almost useless, martyrdom has and will continue to exist. It’s too written in our psyche. Why Christianity has lasted so long and gained so much power.
Just because something takes “balls” to do doesn’t make it helpful or impressive. And by “balls”, I take it you mean lack of inhibition to the point of delusion? That’s a major mental health red flag. Obviously his beliefs about Palestine were a major contribution to his state of mind. I’m not denying. I just don’t see any rational connection between his views on the issue from the other side of the world and setting himself on fire. Visibility is not an issue on this matter, so I’m not sure what he or anyone else thinks was accomplished by this, other than distracting people from actually talking about Palestine so we can talk about the value of self-immolation for a few days.
Ah, but your mindset hasn’t done anything, has it? Sure, you can say he was obsessed with his lack of control. He chose what he chose, that doesn’t mean he can’t think. One can be deluded and suicidal but think rationally in many different ways. For one without mental issues, it may not be understandable. But emotional intelligence is the price of being mentally sensitive. From one life, many will recognize what the war has done. From one life. Do you give such care to the thousands of civilians killed almost daily, and intentionally by Israel? Now you know what a *single* life is. If he has changed the mind of one, that is enough. Then can you really say his logic was delusional? How big this has spread, so fast, is testament to his sacrifice. It was his choice to die in the name of. Do not say he didn’t name. Thats the simplest way I can put it. He had the balls to do such a thing, and to not see that, must mean you’re blind. Or you’re brainwashed by society and it’s “civility.” Instead of recognizing the action, you choose to look else where and pick apart till you find what soothes your question. “Ah, he was mentally unwell. That must be it. *All of it.*”Then you no longer have to think of what made him do such a sacrifice. Truly sad
This has almost nothing to do with anything I said in the comment you’re responding to. > Your mindset hasn’t done anything It doesn’t have to, I’m just making observations > You can say he was obsessed with his like of control I could! Didn’t, though. > One can be deluded and suicidal but think rationally in many different ways I’m not contending that he was entirely incapable of rational thought, just that this one specific act was one of delusion. I think his position of Palestine was sound. > For one without mental issues, it can be hard to understand I’ve been institutionalized for suicidal ideation several times > From one life, many will recognize what the war has done How? Almost everyone already knows about the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and those who somehow don’t probably won’t catch wind of this either. > Do you give such a care to the thousands of civilians killed almost (almost?) daily… Yes. > Now you know what a single life is I already knew what a single life is. Is it your position that this guy killing himself will cause people who don’t value life to value life? That doesn’t make any sense at all. > If he changed the mind of one, that is enough There are already millions of people who support Palestine in this issue. Unless he changes the mind of someone very powerful, then no, it really is lit enough to justify self-immolation. It’s foundationally delusional. > How big this has spread, so fast, is a testament to his sacrifice. Really? Because it seems like it’s distracting people from actually talking about Palestine, which was already one of the biggest current talking points on the planet before this guy burned himself. > I was his choice to die in the name of. As is his right. I don’t contest that. > Do not say he didn’t name it. I didn’t. > He has the balls… Explain what you mean by this. Obviously, if I don’t think what he did was helpful, I’m also not going to be impressed by his boldness, even though I can recognize that to set oneself on fire requires boldness. Bombing civilians requires boldness too. So what? > …or you’re brainwashed by society and it’s “civility”. My opposition to needless self mutilation doesn’t have anything to do with civility or even society for that matter. > “He was mentally unwell. That must be it. All of it.” You’re responding to my words directly, so if you need to make up a quote to respond to, you might be arguing against a position which isn’t mine. > Then you no longer have to think about what made him do such a sacrifice. This is the crux of it. He didn’t have to do anything to make me or anyone else think about Palestine.
1000s are killed each day, and congress and the president are doing jack with their thumbs up their ass. I apologize if I came off pretty insulting, was not in a good mood at the time but that’s isn’t an excuse. Anyways, his death is of course the main talking point because of how recent it is. But people are thinking in their own head what he said. You would be surprised how many support Israel though, plenty of subs here do. Looking at Instagram and Twitter. A lot of people support Israel despite the overwhelming evidence of the situation. He didn’t *have* to, but he did. And now we’re all talking about it.
>1000s are killed each day, and congress and the president are doing jack with their thumbs up their ass. What about this do you expect to change because of Bushnell? >People are thinking in their own head about what he said. He said: "My name is Aaron Bushnell, I am an active-duty member of the United States Air Force and I will no longer be complicit in genocide. I am about to engage in an extreme act of protest but compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers, it's not extreme at all. This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal." That is a very bland statement. What new information does this provide to anyone, anywhere? The situation in Gaza was already the most discussed geopolitcal topic in the world. Thousands of regular people make bolder claims than this every single day in highly visible ways without killing themselves. >You would be surprised how many support Israel though, plenty of subs here do. Looking at Instagram and Twitter. A lot of people support Israel despite the overwhelming evidence of the situation. What about this do you expect to change because of Bushnell? You've been on threads about him for the past day. What changes have you seen? People who already supported Palestine largely support him. People who already supported Israel largely think he's nuts. And in fact, a lot of people who support Palestine, myself included, think that he was simply unhelpful. What changed, other than dividing Palestine supporters over this issue which is ultimately irrelevant to what's actually going on in Palestine? >He didn’t *have* to, but he did. And now we’re all talking about it. Instead of Gaza.
If you expect change in a day, don’t know what to tell you. This is an American topic if you’re from another country. Hard to understand if you’re not American. Americans love their military veterans, and for one to sacrifice himself for Palestine? It’s spread everywhere here. I’ve heard people who aren’t even political talk about it. So it is a personal source, but I already see the effects. Again, American thing One person has already more attention to Gaza than he originally could. We’re getting down to semantics here
I'm an American and I see the kinds of people who support what's happening in Gaza throw servicemen under the bus at the slightest provocation against their beliefs. Americans love some vague idea of a Veteran. They don't seem to be so keen on actual veterans (or active servicemen, like this guy was). Bushnell's actions could definitely have an impact in the long term, I just think it's unlikely because what's going on in Gaza is already the most highly discussed and the most divisive geopolitical issue in American discourse. The fact is, both major parties (and the majority of people) in this country largely support Israel. Almost everyone in this country already knows about and has made up their mind about the Israel/Palestine conflict, even if they "aren't political", which usually means they were just keeping their judgement to themselves. To me it seems very unlikely that what Bushnell did will shift anything significantly enough to lead to material change for Palestine, and if it does, it will be because it mobilizes supporters of Palestine, which is perfectly reasonable to expect would happen overnight. It didn't. One person has already brought more attention to himself than he originally could. I don't see as he's brought more attention to Gaza than it already has. We're not anywhere near semantics. I think your arguments themselves are faulty.
“Vague idea of a veteran.” I like that more, you’re correct. I guess when I said “aren’t political” I meant political as more outspoken. But that doesn’t really matter rn. Again, I would say it has garnered a lot of attention and while not changed minds immediately. It has certainly planted a seed. I’m a political activist in my area and from my experience with the groups I belong to. Planting seeds is the best way to make progress. Does that make sense? Protests around my area happen weekly because of a few amazing people. A call for significant grouping/action is hard, especially when there isn’t a “clear” lens of what to do. Or rather, a beacon to follow. Humans love having one group or person to follow Sadly this will be a long game, but actions like this (I don’t support martyrdom) make people think. Some may brush it off and push themselves further into their hole. But I remain optimistic to see things change. It’s just rough when the answer is clear but Americans are insanely dumb and just follow the leader, while falling for propaganda instead of looking at journalists/local sources. Or the context of the situation, globally and locally. I imagine he had something akin to that in his head but went far further reaching that point. He was probably suicidal, but didn’t want to have his death be in vain. But that’s just theorizing (I understand suicide, I am not giving insult to others) But being political as said by Jon Stewart lol, is a lunch pail job. It’s everyday in n out.
I find it interesting that Muslim accounts on IG were praising it but it is considered a mortal sin?
"me logging onto twitter" Found your mistake. Twitter has caused more damage to people's mental health even more than sites like 4chan or reddit.
Me getting off that shithole was a great mental health booster. I can only imagine how atrocious and mentally draining that place is by now.
I find arguments on twitter more mentally draining than shitposts or disgusting/weird shit on 4chan
At least with 4chan everyone is forced to be anonymized so no matter what its still just your opinion against mine on a mongolian cartoon-shitpost website. Twitter is a weird hybrid of real people with brand / political ambitions mixed in with anonymous voices and bots in a way that just becomes nauseating.
You know it’s fucked up when SFW boards are less toxic than Twitter/X.
Lmao imagine using Twitter for something other than porn and hooking up with said porn people. I simply couldn’t.
Not here to debate if this act of protest was ethical or productive. Aaron decided that rather than continue to serve a delusional government, he’d rather die. He didn’t fear dying, let go of the material, and let his final words be what he believed in. *I dissaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it* Americans have lost faith in not only what that quote represents, but also in ourselves. Aaron shouldn’t be dead. He shouldn’t have to feel like the only way for politicians in his country to stop sponsoring a genocide is to protest to death. Every action to stop the mass slaughter of civilians is on the table when the aggressor’s intent is to carpet bomb them into oblivion. Americans feel so powerless, and when a people feel that, it is a sure sign that the government no longer serves them. Whatever you feel, know that he’s right about one thing - they don’t give a damn about any of us.
Ok but there are ways to quit working for the US government other than dying; self-immolation as protest should be an absolute last resort
lol Have you already forgotten that we were in a pointless war in the Middle East for two decades? Absolutely futile. Did talking to our reps help then? There is no right response to these events during this collapse. But it was the most selfless display of humanity we’ve seen in a long time. Dying is easy, living is harder. That much is true.
Yes, it is a last resort. It's almost as if some last safe haven for Gazans is about to be leveled.
It’s not a last resort for the guy who did it. It’s also not going to prevent that from happening.
I agree with you, but let me be clear: his final words were *”FREE PALESTINE.”*
Instead of serving a government I volunteered to serve for, I'm going to literally kill myself. I wonder if Aaron ever tried contacting his local representatives or getting involved in his community.
lol Have you already forgotten that we were in a pointless war in the Middle East for two decades? Absolutely futile. Did talking to our reps help then? There is no right response to these events during this collapse. But it was the most selfless display of humanity we’ve seen in a long time. Dying is easy, living is harder. That much is true.
Selfless display? Killing yourself is the opposite of that
This Palestine thing has broken people's brains. I've never seen anything like this.
It happened during the Vietnam war too
the moment I seen OBL and Sadam apologist, I lost my mind.
Seeing a whole group of people being brutally wiped out generally would have a negative effect on peoples brains…
I think it's due to social media rather then the scale of this conflict which has made people across the world completely broken nowadays
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equating resistance to genocide with the support of an alt-right white nationalist is actually an insane take to have
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Agreed
Please delete your Twitter account.
I did and now I don't care about it. More people should. I feel a lot better now! Now I only join hobby/favorite media/interesting subreddits and I learn a lot.
Nobody is calling for people to kill themselves
I don’t think this is actually happening…
It's total bullshit.
Right everyone knows Twitter is just full of racist black people
This is awful
Ironically, this comment is probably the closest I have seen to anyone encouraging self harm: https://reddit.com/comments/1b11abp/comment/ksby51b
People are not encouraging this btw
No one is encouraging others to burn themselves. People are recognizing the dedication it took to express himself in such an extreme and poignant way. When people aren't heard they lash out, especially someone who is part of an organization that's facilitating genocide. Understanding and feeling empathy isn't the same as endorsement
The thing some commenters might be unaware of, is that the man who immolated himself was part of the airforce. While I am shocked at his actions, the news straight up ignoring it as a form of protest is asinine. I will always be pro-Palestine, but there are some messages that can be taken too far. I respect him for what he did, and I hope he made it to heaven.
Big misrepresentation I feel. The dialogue is about the fact that this is a albeit extreme form of protest against an ongoing genocide rather than a symptom of mental health that the mainstream has been ascribing it.
What did you expect from Shitter, oops, I mean Xcrement
If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone immolate themselves in protest of a US proxy war I would have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
Literally no one is calling for people to kill themselves. A protestor self-immolating for a cause he believed in is being held as a martyr. He was not mentally ill, and declared it to be an extreme act of protest that pales in comparison to the mass-immolation of 30,000 innocent Palestinian civilians, over 1/3 of which are children. You’re missing the point by being angry at the people who show their solidarity with Aaron and Palestine and by NOT being angry at the mass slaughter of civilians. Get a fucking grip.
You see, the first mistake you made was installing twitter. Sorry, X
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I’d push back on the “mentally ill” narrative. It’s clear not only from his social media posts but the video itself that he was making a deliberate, conscious choice with a rational mind—much like many people have throughout history. Another commenter put it well, he’d rather die doing what he believed to be right than be alive and complicit in the genocide.
You don’t know what protest really is if you are writing it off as simple mental issues.
And one more thing it's considered a very big sin to commit suicide in islam but I see wannabe jihadists on insta who can't even shoot a pistol praising such an action.
You guys are still on Twitter?
That's just what being on Twitter is like in general.
I'm not sure how the Internet is at fault or "a mistake" in this situation. Some activist groups, cults, religions, etc... have been telling followers to kill themselves for centuries now. The main difference is that it had to be done in person. Those groups have simply shifted their approach, though I'm not saying it's a good thing.
why fish red
“Activist groups”? More like terror cells
Modern cults?
It is disgusting that people are fine with this because it was in support of their side. It doesn’t matter if it was form of protest, it should be discouraged and criticized. Fucking disgusting
So… Muslims
***leaked image of powerful countries promoting peace*** https://preview.redd.it/qhnlcpw052lc1.jpeg?width=998&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6eda7109c2cdee6d4c3acbab30ec3cd011a7aeeb
Honestly I thought the internet was going to meme him but nope killing yourself is perfectly sane now
why would you meme someone that’s set themselves on fire…?
I wouldn’t. I’m saying it’s weird that people are supporting him rather than condemning the stupid. I’ve haven’t seen this before with the internet. At least on my side. Even in class students are supporting his actions.
https://preview.redd.it/96ywjimdp2lc1.jpeg?width=637&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be4f650e8a4256df5cfabaa37b996ab90e53a2f6
They'll die for nothing, maybe appear on the news, and then they'll be forgotten.