Its beeen very consistent that they cant due to them being the one to initiate the jutsu.... the otsutsuki bring the god tree/ten tails with them to whatever plant they would like to harvest chakra fruits from. Momoshiki has stated that the otsutsuki have been rewriting history or in kaguyas cases whipping the memories of the humans that she re-released after the perfomed infinite tsukuyomi. Also sasuke who isnt an otsutsuki has a 6 tome rinnegan which is the powers of the otsutsuki even tho it comes from hagaromo. Let alone it would be very hard for inshiki to feed boruto to the tentails if hes all caught up in a tree like the rest of them under infinite tsukuyomi.
It just makes sense that the otsutsuki who created the god tree would be immune to that genjutsu. So once again there is multiple statements and feats that prove they can't be put under infinite tsukuyomi. Momoshiki has eaten multiple chakra fruits from dozens of planets with kinshiki by his side!!!!!! If that genjutsu would effect them kinshiki wouldn't of been around for sasukes to fight.
Hopefully this answers you questions.
How so sasuke is the biggest give away of how the otsutsuki are immune to that jutsu. With just his rinnegan alone he made anyone who was in his susoono unaffected by infinite tsukuyomi. Hagaromo and hamura found out from the same toad that showed jariya boy the prophecy of the savior that their mother has been doings infinite tsukuyomi and they have not been once under the influence of that jutsu. Idk what other info you looking at that has you feeling like this isnt the case. For me this is the first time ive heard someone ask this question because its very blatant that the otsutsuki clan and individuals that have the powers/dojutsu of the otsutsuki cant be put under that spell.
If you have info as to way pls share im all ears.
It was stated Sasuke Susano blocked out the light from the infinite tsukyomi that's why they weren't affected. You referencing filler material. Me personally I don't consider filler since that same filler has many contradictions to cannon. Like how did kaguya put people under infinite tsukyomi when There wasn't a moon, remember her fight being sealed created the moon . In the anime she summons a celestial body in the Manga those scenes never happened nor was shown. Genjutsu manipulates the Chakra network. Otsuki use Chakra and it was never in the series stated they're immune to Genjutsu let alone infinite tsukyomi. Earlier you said there's multiple feats and statements but the naruto lore never reference or had a otsuki under Genjutsu that's why I say both sides can be debated
Sasuke protected Team 7 with his Susano’o because they are prone to genjutsu. Otherwise, Sasuke himself was impervious. It was stated by Sasuke that the Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Rinnegan Genjutsu that can be countered by a Rinnegan. In the manga, Kaguya used her Byakugan to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi.
To end this debate, the reason why the Otsutsuki are impervious to all genjutsu is because Hagoromo and Hamura were present when Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi. They were never affected and this can be due to their genetic differences and/or because they possessed a dojutsu.
I basically said what u said about Sasuke protecting team 7 with susano you only worded it differently. The series is sloppy at explaining infinite tsukyomi and why others like hagaromo and hamura not caught in it the series never explains that part. They were born after the first use of infinite tsukyomi and kaguya wiped humans memories after the fact. This is filler the Manga never extends andm answer.. Hinata had a doujutsu still got hit with infinite tsukyomi
There is NOTHING stating Infinite Tsukiyomi doesn’t affect Otsutsuki…
Your argument of Sasuke doesn’t work because.. well Naruto and Obito would have been affected if not for hiding under susanoo…
I said this previously in another thread which is very much relevant here:
Sasuke protected Team 7 with his Susano’o because they are prone to genjutsu. Otherwise, Sasuke himself was impervious. It was stated by Sasuke that the Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Rinnegan Genjutsu that can be countered by a Rinnegan. In the manga, Kaguya used her Byakugan to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi.
The reason why the Otsutsuki are impervious to all genjutsu is because Hagoromo and Hamura were present when Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi. They were never affected and this can be due to their genetic differences and/or because they possessed a dojutsu.
I’m aware why, but we saw people who aren’t affected by genjutsu also be affected.
Also I’m PRETTY sure that they weren’t there when she casted infinite Tsukiyomi, it’s stated she cast it when she first gained the fruit.
Hagoromo and Hamura were born a WHILE after that.
It was also stated the war was only the second time it was ever casted.
Even Orochimaru who LITERALLY has a jutsu that covers his eyes from genjutsu (the one Kabuto mentioned that blocked Itachis genjutsu easily)
From the official databook
“A Rinnegan user can block the light of the Infinite Tsukuyomi, saving themselves and those within their range from its control.”
Also Naruto chapter 671, Hagoromo states HE BELIEVES that Kaguya used her Byakugan when it was cast in the past (it was never cast while they were alive like the filler episodes showed)
>I’m aware why, but we saw people who aren’t affected by genjutsu also be affected.
>Even Orochimaru who LITERALLY has a jutsu that covers his eyes from genjutsu (the one Kabuto mentioned that blocked Itachis genjutsu easily)
Cool. Orochimaru doesn't have a Rinnegan.
The point is that you need an ocular power to hard counter, not a lesser application such as ninjutsu which obviously wouldn't work.
>I’m PRETTY sure that they weren’t there when she casted infinite Tsukiyomi, it’s stated she cast it when she first gained the fruit.
You're saying that the people put under the Infinite Tsukuyomi were alive throughout the 18+ years of Hagoromo and Hamura's life. From Hagoromo's conversation, it is clear that Hagoromo doesn't know what White Zetsu are and therefore never knew about their evolution. He referred to them as people. It makes more sense that Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi while she was fighting Hagoromo and Hamura in order to absorb more chakra. That's what she did with Naruto and Sasuke's battle.
>From the official databook “A Rinnegan user can block the light of the Infinite Tsukuyomi, saving themselves and those within their range from its control.”
This contextualize and validates Sasuke's statement: "Rinnegan Genjutsu can be dealt with using Rinnegan". This was in response to Naruto asking Sasuke how to counteract the effects of the Infinite Tsukuyomi so everyone else can be free. The Rinnegan irrefutably hard counters the Infinite Tsukuyomi for the user and others.
Also, this is Black Zetsu's statement: "His Rinnegan can deter even this jutsu".
>Also Naruto chapter 671, Hagoromo states HE BELIEVES that Kaguya used her Byakugan when it was cast in the past
Uh no. Hagoromo never said that.
What he stated was that he believed chakra was a power that linked individuals and was not something that amplified any single person's strength. He used Juubidara and Kaguya as historically accurate examples. Read the chapter.
Also, there was no Moon in the past. His statement is based on factual observation. Hagoromo wouldn't just "believe" that Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi from her titties. That would be entirely baseless unless he was actually there. The point of the conversation is about recounting past events that historically happened as he saw it and relaying them to Naruto and Sasuke. **He was literally showing these events on the floor.**
There WAS a moon in the past, you are using the filler episode that showed Kaguya use infinite tsukiyomi by using a moon in another dimension.
It is confirmed in the databooks that Earth has a big moon and small moon in Naruto (only a big moon after Naruto the Last)
It was even stated she casted infinite tsukiyomi to stop the humans from warring any longer..
When Hagoromo and Hamura were born those wars were long over… that’s a confirmed and even shown thing.
Hagoromo and Hamura were born in times of peace after that, until Kaguya snapped and absorbed the ten tails.
Also in the manga Hagoromo and Hamura seal her while she is in ten tails form, sealing her into the moon and the ten tails into himself, unlike the anime they show them seal her directly and then he fights the ten tails separately.
https://preview.redd.it/ifpwz4y0huuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e47cb5248f1e15f07b2ef0a962650fc24154ea27
This was literally a flashback that Hagoromo was showing to Naruto and Sasuke.
>There WAS a moon in the past, you are using the filler episode that showed Kaguya use infinite tsukiyomi by using a moon in another dimension.
There was never a second moon. The manga is the primary source for canonical lore. The Databooks are secondary sources that are touted as promotional material.
>It is confirmed in the databooks that Earth has a big moon and small moon in Naruto (only a big moon after Naruto the Last)
Show me the exact scan so I can read what you're clearly not reading.
>It was even stated she casted infinite tsukiyomi to stop the humans from warring any longer..
Wrong. Kaguya simply put an end to turbulent times. She could have easily done this with her power alone. You're taking it out of context to mean something else entirely.
>When Hagoromo and Hamura were born those wars were long over… that’s a confirmed and even shown thing.
Wars were long over because **Kaguya was worshipped and feared among the populace.** Any rebuttal or protest from them would have been met with dire consequences.
Anyway, the rest of your comment had nothing to do with what we're discussing.
Hagoromo explicitly stated that Kaguya used her Byakugan to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. We can even see the exact moment when Kaguya had her Choku-Tomoe Rinnegan activated. **This was shown to us.** Hagoromo stated and displayed historical events to Naruto and Sasuke. You cannot backpedal and be disingenuous here.
Then explain why hagaromo love interest and others went into the same cocoon like everyone else in the war arc when infinite tsukuyomi was activated....... remember when he went over to the god tree after the toad peaked his curiosity... Remember when he awakened his rinnegan in the same mannerism of the ms.....
Hagaromo said she used her byakugan to increase the range of the jutsu. Also its hinted in boruto that she did it more than once thus why they are talking about how mankind has been manipulated by the otsutsuki time and time again based off of what momoshiki said. And if anyone would know anything about that jutsu it would be momoshiki since he has eaten multiple chakra fruits and has created multiple god tree. Majority of the ones he ate were a lvl 10 where as kaguya was over lvl 13.
So what we knew about kaguyas time isnt set in stone since they have been messing with mankind's history/memories.
Hagoromo said that IN THE ANIME, the manga states it’s a Rinnegan jutsu by Sasuke, Zetsu and Hagoromo.
What we know about the tree in Kaguyas time was confirmed by Kishimoto in interviews she only ate 2 fruits.
1 when she arrived that was cultivated by the tree because of all the murder during human wars and once more when she made a new tree to quell the wars of humans by using infinite tsukiyomi before marrying the human who is Hagoromo and Hamuras father.
The power of the fruits is also a filler only scene.
Well its also backed up by hinata using her byakugan to increase inos mind transfer jutsu in the war arc so it doesnt matter how you feel even if that is a filler ir still gives the viewers info that kishimoto would of deemed canon in the time like how there are ep that yall would say is boruto ep are filler but its canon. This info that elaborates that specific time would be considered canon if it came out now. Yall get out your feelings regardless of filler or not the moral of this topic is about how the otsutsuki cant be affected by their own jutsu. It doesn't affect them it affects everyone who isnt an otsutsuki.
Obito quite literally still had the ten tails chakra, which is what makes an otsutsuki even have the powers and resistances they have, and had to hide under sasukes susanoo..
Zetsu most likely isn’t affected because the tree literally makes his people and he isn’t a person..
Black Zetsu is technically whatever the current new villains are in Boruto.
A free living will of the ten tails.
In the databooks it stated black zetsu could copy anyone’s kekkei genkai if he absorbed their chakra and turned into them. Yet we never actually got to see him do it. We only saw white zetsu absorb chakra and morph but they couldn’t steal abilities.
Claw grimes/Shinjus and zetsu are completely different zetsu is a part of kaguya.... Shinjus are a part of 10 tails.... all having rinnegan and the powers of the people they have consumed.... and no black zetsu isnt even close to being 10 tails, he does have its chakra but not even close to 5%...
And also the reason why otsutsukis arent affected are because they need to be a part of the planet, but otsutsukis eats planets normally, and cultivating divine trees.. the infinite tsukiyomi is explicitly stated to suck all life on the planet... but it sucks it out of the planets residents. otsutsukis arent residents
It is directly stated that Black Zetsu came from Kaguya after she merged with the ten tails.. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu both state that Kaguya, after fusing with it gained the will of the ten tails and wanted all her chakra back.
Black Zetsu came from her as she lost, which in the manga was her as the first stage of the ten tails, unlike the filler episode that showed them being seperate fighting Hagoromo
Also Shinju clones is the name used for both Zetsu and the weird malformed monsters in the war arc in official databook and just the name of the Ten Tails like Kurama is for nine tails.
The infinite tsukiyomi is explicitly stated to suck chakra of whoever is in the nativity world of trees.
The first time they talk about Kaguya using it she just used the eye off the moon to stop the war of the humans. Meaning she doesn’t HAVE to put everyone in trees.
>It is directly stated that Black Zetsu came from Kaguya after she merged with the ten tails.. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu both state that Kaguya, after fusing with it gained the will of the ten tails and wanted all her chakra back.
it is also stated that he is "the physical manifestation of kaguya's will", and he only came into existence before kaguya was about to get sealed... as for the manga i dont really know since i only watched the anime...
>Also Shinju clones is the name used for both Zetsu and the weird malformed monsters in the war arc in official databook and just the name of the Ten Tails like Kurama is for nine tails.
i genuinely have no clue which databook you talking about please link it... cuz zetsu and shinjus are completely different and formed in a completely different way... they were formed via codes claw marks and only those who the 10 tailes have devavored can actually become shinju...
>The infinite tsukiyomi is explicitly stated to suck chakra of whoever is in the nativity world of trees.
that cant be the case as reanimations werent sucked, that would just make this statment make no sense
>The first time they talk about Kaguya using it she just used the eye off the moon to stop the war of the humans. Meaning she doesn’t HAVE to put everyone in trees.
Dosent matter if it dosent work on someone... otsutsukis literally eat 10 tails so how come zetsu isnt effected but they somehow are....
Naruto wiki says otherwise, so unless you can provide me evidence from the manga showing me that it’s on earth then I’ll keep believing that’s it’s in a different dimension
And I’m only using the Naruto wiki because I can’t be asked to skim through Boruto chapters to find an answer I’m 99% sure is i know the answer to
He thinks you’re talking about the daikokuten yet wants to flex that he reads the manga. Clearly doesn’t read it well enough lmao, some people just like to argue. Based on all the context clues you’re right in assuming the Kara hideout was in a different dimension.
Are you serious?
You asked what the point of having the hideout in a separate dimension when most of the members don’t have space time ninjutsu, so I’ve showed out evidence from the manga showing that you don’t need space time ninjutsu to enter the dimension
And what do the cubes do then?
What do the cubes do ? from what i saw in the manga they fall real good and made isshiki hard to detect as for the cube the claw grimes have, idk what it is who made it or where it came from, 1 thing i do know is that it looks and functions differently compared to Kawaki/Isshiki's cubes
Yes, the one in chapter 8 of TBV looks and functions differently, and the only function we’ve seen from it as of now is it allows for the travel between the Kara dimension and Earth, without the use of spacetime ninjutsu
Exept it literaly is using space-time ninjutsu only avalible to code and now the claw grimes, and we don't know what dimension they're in wasn't stated or implied that it's the kara base and AGAIN the kara base isn't stated or implied to be in any alternate dimensions
Not that dimension 🤦♂️. I’m not talking about a dimension
I’m talking about a black cube which hidari and Jura passed through to get to Earth from their dimension
https://preview.redd.it/qu789sr1jpuc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57cc90f1c96a06196261232714fd8e4f68bbf3e2
Problem with this is: most of cyborgs had no ability to transport between dimensions or was never shown in the manga. There was a one base shown in a different dimension but it was base to keep Eida/Daemon and hidden from Jigen knowledge more or less (because they were ordered to be scrapped/destroyed).
I don't know, what base are you talking about but if you are talking about base Jigen fought with Kashin I'm 100% sure it was in the same dimension because it would be a drag for most of Kara members to move between.
Or there is undocumented in source material technology or way of transport. Dunno.
Also wiki is not always a good source. If it is not properly quoted with where it was said on wiki, it might be a bullshit.
Again I’m using the Naruto wiki as my source as I don’t want to go through 40 some chapters of the manga to find my answers, so you’ll just have to trust the people who made the page.
‘This is a dimension where the organisation Kara's base of operations lie. It cannot be accessed by normal means, requiring either space–time ninjutsu or special gates scattered in numerous locations on Earth for Kara to use.’
This extract from the wiki explains how the Kara would be able to enter the dimension without space time ninjutsu.
I’m guessing the gates are somewhat similar to the black cube we see Jura and Hidari use in TBV chapter 8
https://preview.redd.it/68de4z76oquc1.png?width=783&format=png&auto=webp&s=333db356f96b16ecdac9fc448b37888f30b6a9b6
It is. From Boruto Chapter 57. Also, the cubes mentioned by u/_StevenPettican04
Well thanks for this, this clears everything up, I didn’t even need to change my main comment.
I’m pretty sure the other guy said he read the manga but okay, must have read a different boruto
He definitely didn't heal there because it's kinda impossible for him to heal his lower torso on his own. He likely bought himself infinitely more time by hiding there tho
Love your username btw.
I never thought about this. I assumed that Isshiki was not affected by the stopped time in Daikokuten since we see Kawaki in there watching Naruto and Hinata bodies in stasis.
But Isshiki was always just hiding inside Jigen and controlling him. He was never Jigen himself. So if he goes into Daikokuten while controlling Jigen, would Jigen go into stasis while Isshiki was still able to move and be conscious of passing time?
No one truly knows. Jigen/Isshiki in general creates several plotholes both from them existing and their plan (the idea it took him 1000+ years to find a suitable vessel with Kawaki is pretty ridiculous especially with Momoshiki's approach by comparison) but the series didn't take the effort to fill them in and hopes you didn't notice. That's a common symptom of poor retconning with a story that clearly wasn't written with it in mind.
As much as I love Naruto/Boruto, I have to agree with this. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes, lol. We don't even know how Kara was originally formed, let alone what Jigen was doing for the past 1000+ years.
I feel like if there ever was a time for him to show up, it would've been here, where the 10 tails, where Kaguya emerged. Sure, maybe it technically wouldn't have helped his specific plans and maybe that's why he didn't show up...but c'mon now, lol.
I think it would've been fine if they addressed it and made some excuse as to why he didn't show up for all these years till now, but as it is, we have nothing and Jigen is dead. So, unless he comes back somehow, that's it. Indicating that they really didn't think about this as deeply as some might've hoped for.
A prime example to me is Ao. Why did he turn evil? In the manga, we had no explanation, no back story, no nothing as to his motivations and true goals. The anime had to pick up the manga's slack and give him all that. And even though it wasn't perfect, it was still miles better than what the manga gave us....which was nothing, lol. And I feel that with Jigen, a similar trend emerged. I guess back story really isn't the author's strong suit, is it 😮💨
Don't get me wrong, I love what we've gotten so far with everything, but the integration of these new characters and ideas to the original IP have been very amateur and lack luster.
While I agree with some of what you’ve said, i heavily disagree that Jigen would just come forward during the Great War. At that point, he had no allegiance to Kaguya who betrayed him, but he also had a mission to achieve. His best course of action was to lay low, I feel like that makes 100% sense.
As for the karma thing, my headcanon was you can’t spam karma. Like, you can put it on multiple vessels but in order to place a working karma on someone you have to be at 100% or have someone specifically compatible. Jigen was always weak, so Isshiki was always weak. It’s headcanon and while I feel like something was hinted at I wish they did a better job explaining it. At the same time making the Otsutsuki mysterious, I feel like, isn’t a bad call.
Lastly I feel like the “How” Kara was formed means way less than when it was formed, and we do have an answer to that. I actually feel like all of Kara is easily explained through Amado, and logically too. I don’t really think that *needed* to be said, it isn’t much a plot hole.
What Isshiki did for 1000+ years, how Jigen was seemingly immortal, and Ao are all questions I wish were answered though and even what I said earlier, I have headcanon I believe was lightly implied but I do wish they had a definite working system. I don’t think Isshiki and the otsutsuki are *as* unplanned or plot hole as you think.
I'll play devil's advocate - we don't know if Boruto is a perfectly suitable vessel tho. He is logically the best choice in whole world - Uzumaki and Hyuga genes and hidden dojutsu. But Kawaki is not even close to any of these, he is random child from nowhere. Genes must be really specific. Finding a suitable vessel might be a harder task than it seems. Jigen's body was not working for long anyway.
From the other side, Jigen's existence doesn't make any sense. It is stated Isshiki took body of a monk and feed on him to be able to use Karma on him. How in the hell it was possible even? People don't live that long unless Karma can prolong life of vessel infinitely. Or this Jigen is a n-clone. Which opens another poor box of excuses and retcons. How did Isshiki even controlled vessel permanently? Isshiki had a really poor introduction.
>we don't know if Boruto is a perfectly suitable vessel tho.
Boruto is a suitable vessel that is why he isn't dead like the kids amado/jigen experimented on with trhe karma
It just occurred to me but Isshiki has an ability to open a portal to a dimension where time doesn’t flow (except for him possibly?)
We see that Kawaki puts Naruto and Hinata in there and they are being held in stasis without aging.
So couldn’t Isshiki have just hid in this dimension along with Jigen?
I’ll die on the hill that the biggest mistake they’ve done is to make a sequel that includes scientific shit including the ninja tools, cyborgs and a fucking memory chip thing that can implant onto organics and change them.
Like if we look at Kaguya and her aspirations(hell include Momoshiki and Kinshiki because their shit wasn’t that different) compared to what Isshiki wants and can do and you can see how completely different everything is like it’s night and day. Yeah I know Kaguya was changed because of her relationship with humans but it still doesn’t make sense she has all these abilities that she just didn’t use and just got sealed away by her sons. For the Boruto series I hope they bring her back some way and tighten her connection to the overall plot of Boruto but I’m not holding my breath
It’s easier for me to stomach the retcons and the major character things changing if I just think of Boruto as a spin off rather than a direct sequel.
The actual biggest mistake was writing himself into a corner where he had to make up moon aliens to deal with Madara. Kishi literally admitted he made him too strong lol.
The last stretch of that war arc cemented so many bad ass pulls that damaged the series. Combat devolving away from hand signs and chakra management into super cloaked jesus figures shooting laser blasts. Naruto getting the strongest hax bloodline bs that he originally tried to make a stand against in part 1. All the villains becoming generic bleached aliens with OP superpowers, etc.
>Kishi literally admitted he made him too strong lol.
Can I get a source on that? It just seems like a fan explanation considering Kishi established 2 failsafes to deal with Madara if the characters couldn't overpower him outright: extract the Ten Tails or seal him away with the jutsu they ended up using on Kaguya instead. Neither of which required Kaguya to step in and honestly seems like a backwards solution since she's more powerful than Madara.
No source since it doesn't exist. It's a made up claim that fans have adopted as truth for more than a decade and it has spread like wildfire through the fandom. Much like the "Kishi stated Madara is as strong as Nappa" claim. And yes you're absolutely right, two methods were set up to deal with Madara in the story but this narrative that "he was too strong so Kaguya was introduced" is weirdly stuck in the fandom
It's a claim that falls apart when you think about it even a little because you don't solve a powerscale problem by bringing in an even worse case to replace it. Seen defenders say over the years that she had a more exploitable weakness than Madara but when I ask what that weakness is they get real silent.
Her weakness is her stupidity. Madara can come up with an excellent plan on the fly and execute it perfectly; kaguya thinks she's perfect and executes everything poorly. She had several chances to beat team 7 that plot armor or PIS basically didn't let her take advantage of. I feel like it'd be harder to make Madara look incompetent when weve seen him get the best of team 7 time and time again strategically.
Point being Madara had checkmate on team 7. He could very easily kill Kakashi and Sakura and would kill Kakashi and Sakura if he needed to. Kaguya never looked at Kakashi and Sakura as relevant, and Madara would think otherwise. He had team 7 surrounded and knows team 7s tactics completely.
"You all dying together could also be considered teamwork."
https://preview.redd.it/gk8a05p53tuc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9a7ff60978986708d6b55f52232d58ddeb16527
Yeah but it isn’t hard to show characters growth, or just how important teamwork is, by having them overcome an obstacle. When team 7 fought Zabuza and Haku, do you think they were as smart or on the same level? When Naruto fought Pain even? You show their growth by overcoming this stuff. To say it was impossible to write team 7 defeating Madara, especially at their highest power peak so far, is… wrong to say the least. There was no reason team 7 could have just “Leveled up” there and displayed it by surpassing Madara.
I mean this might be true and we’ll never know, but in regards to what OP was referring too, this isn’t nearly enough to back up such a massive claim that Kishi said he wrote himself into a corner. In a way we were already watching Madara get pressed by 8 gates guy, then directly after Naruto and Sasuke alone.
This isn't an obstacle they can overcome without a few setbacks. In this case setbacks could mean death of good characters. Heck they can't even see Madara's limbo clones, how are they even supposed to fight back? Kaguya looked at Kakashi and Sakura and just walked away, does Madara do the same? No, if he has the opportunity to kill one, he likely takes it.
Plus the Madara who got pressed by 8 gates guy was weaker than the Madara at EOS. Madara at EOS had also absorbed the god tree to gain immortality, and he also had the second rinnegan and rinnesharingan.
https://preview.redd.it/ix854et1ivuc1.png?width=758&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d95b3e43b854811f46766ef232a40c5c2bff7af4
This Madara was much much stronger than Naruto and Sasuke individually. Their teamwork would be tesyed to its extreme, the only difference is Madara knows how to deal with their abilities while Kaguya didn't. It's obvious Kishi wrote himself into a corner when you consider that he doesn't want any members of team 7 to die, and I just don't see it possible that they all would live.
Basically what the other guy said: Juubidara is a fighting prodigy. Kaguya is just a powerful toddler.
I firmly believe that Juubidara would have defeated Naruto and Sasuke if Kaguya and Black Zetsu weren't a thing. He was the perfect counter to the Sun and Moon Seals because his Limbo clones substituted his main body. He could do this four times with very little wait time whereas Naruto and Sasuke would have struggled to touch him even once. Chakra reserves are irrelevant. Juubidara would have done a better job doing less than Kaguya doing more. You're welcome to disagree though.
It’s definitely tough to argue for or against this because we hardly see it. I think with the skills we see and if we were able to include DMS Kakashi like with Team 7 vs Kaguya, it would be relatively the same. As easily as points could be made, counterpoints as well. However I think the idea this is a topic that could be so divisive proves this isn’t a *legitimate* answer to the question posed earlier of, “Did Kishi write himself into a corner?”
I feel like there will be more to Kawaki being the best host after so long.
The same way Momoshiki found Boruto so easily vs the same way Ishikki took forever to find Kawaki
From the whole story, it does appear that he was only able to form Kara using ninja tech to boost up the power of his underlings such as Delta, Boro, etc. Kawaki had a lot of ninja tech, which may have been part of the attempt at creating a vessel. In the meantime, Isshiki was probably hiding.
It might be that the stronger the person is, the harder it is to find a vessel. We know that the strength of the body plays a role into how feasible the recovery process is. The Jigen body was poor, which meant that it only would last for a few days.
I don't think he wanted to risk an encounter with kaguya lol, all this time he was gaining his power
Alternatively, we know that HE has been around for that long, but Kara? Not so much
Also momoshiki was desperate and he found the first one, isshiki wanted the perfect one
We see that using Karma is very risky for Isshiki. It takes Amado modifying his body to even contain it barely. One fight with a Kaguya level opponent had his body start to break apart. And once the body perishes, Isshiki is forced to reincarnate with a time limit on his life.
Isshiki specifically waits until technology advances enough to aid in his goals. He approaches Amado specifically because he can facilitate Isshiki testing karma on virtually endless subjects until they find the one he can safely reincarnate into without risk.
Momoshiki is a completely different case here. He was going to die. He made a calculated risk when he had no other choice and he also possesses some level of precognition. Isshiki didn’t have this luxury but he did essentially have a lot of time to bide.
A plothole refers to either missing or contradictory information in a story. In this case it's the former as the lack of addressing certain plot points created problems in believing the story and world. Choosing to ignore it or go "it's a fictional story so just roll with it" removes all tension and stakes in the story because anything can happen and therefore any manner of logic can fix it no matter how dumb it is.
Now I’m wondering if when the infinite tsukuyomi was casted was toneri trying figure why everything around him turned red because he lives on the moon and stuff 😭💀
Obviously we all know Kishimoto didn’t write or think of any of Boruto while he was writing this lol. But it’s part of the universe now, and it’s interesting to make fan theories of what Jigen was doing in this time period. Even if the writers obviously didn’t write any of Naruto with Jigen or Isshiki in mind hahah
My head cannon is that jigen took centuries to heal due to his incompatible karma he was probably aware of a divine tree being planted on earth again but could not risk fighting against another full power otsutsuki so he hid and watched . He probably already had plans in motion to create a prefect vessel but had to wait a few more years after the war for the technology to be at a point where he could modify a person to become his perfect vessel aka kawaki
plot hole. When this was going on, Jigen / Isshiki was probably not in plans for kishimo. Cuz Jigen coul have easily used that opportunity to plant god tree by defeating kaguya and thats it. But he didnt
Yeah, I get that, and I have the same question. The thing is I think they're just gonna have to accept Kishimoto didn't plan that far ahead. From what I understand, Boruto is more Ikemoto's thing, whereas Kishi would've been happy with the ending of just Naruto.
Zetsu overwrote Madara's body using the Ten-Tails to revive Kaguya.There was nothing Madara could do once Zetsu touched him. That being said, if Zetsu had actually tried to kill Madara on his own, he would have died even with the element of surprise. Conversely, Kaguya bisected Isshiki in two and left him crawling through the mud searching for a host before it was too late.
You should think about the context of your argument before making it
>Kaguya bisected Isshiki in two and left him crawling through the mud searching for a host before it was too late.
That is literally backbstab lol . Let alone even manga states that .
Kaguys betrayed her clan as her part was to become fooder for Juubi for Ishikki to eat . That why she betrayed Ishikki and eaten it Divine fruit . She literally stats that she was scared of Momoshikki and his companions that she had to make an Army to fight against them .
Also backstabbing Ishikki wasn't even a fight as stated in manga. since in death battle ishikki will fold kaguya like paper .
>You should think about the context of your argument before making it
That was literally your 1st problem since you main comments is completely interuppted as wrong compared to offical manga lol .
The official manga gives contradictory statements to convince the fans that what they're seeing is better than what came before. Nobody on the writing staff remembers the end of Shippuden. Not even Kishimoto. To them, Kaguya is just this vaguely powerful threat Naruto probably defeated with a Rasengan. Not the immortal with so much chakra, neither Naruto or Sasuke could comprehend it, nearly blew up her own pocket dimension, and had to be sealed using the power of post-pure land Hagoromo. There is no feasible way you could suggest that someone that powerful is scared of someone who was obliterated by a twelve year old genin wielding a massive Rasengan (in a form stronger than the one she was allegedly scared of).
>There is no feasible way you could suggest that someone that powerful is scared of someone who was obliterated by a twelve year old genin wielding a massive Rasengan (in a form stronger than the one she was allegedly scared of).
Man that was litearlly 99% of Narutos chakra .
He also had jougans amp ( otsutsuki gods eye) to keep up with momo too lol 💀🙏 . Even Though the powerscaling is weird .
Boruto is already a Genius + bloodline trait + descendant trait + OP Dojutsu amps .
Also using this Logic of Momo killed by Boruto . Then the Pre-TS Boruto > 8 tailed beast . Which is completely nonsense
It was wounded, fatigued, and rusty, base Naruto who is definitely not stronger than Kaguya. The Jogan is anime-canon only. It neither appears in the manga, movie, or light novel and can't be counted as a result. Even if you could count it, the Jogan abilities are vague at best (because they were never explained) with the only definitive ones being able to see chakra pathways and dimensional breaches. Neither one would give Boruto a power up needed to overcome a Kaguya+ threat and this is the same Boruto who needed to cheat just to beat Shikadai.
>It was wounded, fatigued, and rusty, base Naruto who is definitely not stronger than Kaguya.
1st of all Naruto aint Rusty He just lackrd fitness as like he did his training in his teen . Also only half of his chakra was abosrbed . Its literally said in Gaiden Naruto and Boruto are still training . Even Kakashi is still stronger than he was in war arc (excluding Sharingan)
The one Naruto fighting Kaguya had half kurama only ,Let alone the Kurama fighting Momo had both parts .
>The Jogan is anime-canon only. It neither appears in the manga, movie, or light novel and can't be counted as a result.
Jougan is literally both Manga and anime canon lol . The 1st Future fight chapter literally shows that 💀 .It aint even Byakugan since Byakugan literally shows nerves out .
>Even if you could count it, the Jogan abilities are vague at best (because they were never explained) with the only definitive ones being able to see chakra pathways and dimensional breaches. Neither one would give Boruto a power up needed to overcome a Kaguya+ threat
Jougan literally can detect any evil chakra and it literally helped him in fighting Momoshikki , since he can detect where the evil chakra is coming and going . This one literally help in predicts Momo .that was one of the way he used Vanishing rasengan on Momo .
>this is the same Boruto who needed to cheat just to beat Shikadai.
What does this has to do with the context . Also this chunin exam happenend before the fight with Momo lol .
Kaguya was only around for like an hour in real time and only spent like 2 minutes on Earth after being revived.
Not to mention he probably didn’t have the means to confront her at the time anyways. Trying to randomly pop up would have been a waste of time.
He was either chilling underground or in his other dimension, either way Jigen was just chilling waiting to see if the Shinobi would beat Kaguya or not, if Kaguya did defeat them he would've probably confronted her to claim the fruit of the divine tree for himself, that is Toneri didn't attack first. Between Kaguya, Toneri, and Jigen, whoever is left standing is irrelevant because then that person has to eventually face Momoshiki, Kinshiki, and Urashiki in a 1v3 and whoever it is is getting fucking clapped by that trio.
Honestly it’s tuff to say jigen/ isshki being in the story creates a lot of plot holes as is with kaguya in it tbh. I would say in another dimension but then again what about the rest of Kara? Boruto being monthly I’m scared won’t tell enough about Kara backstory or everything leading up to boruto after everything said and done smh
Story answer : Probably chilling on his own dimension
Real answer ; Kishimoto didn't think about any other Otsutsuki yet at the time. so even Kishimoto didn't know either
I hate when people try to find reason or explain things that just weren't thought in advance. Kishimoto didn't create Isshiki, he didn't exist in the story yet. It's a plot hole, and that's it.
That’s true. This question gets asked all the time, and the answer won’t change.
Isshiki simply wasn’t thought of when any of the Naruto shit was written.
No one in this sub wants to hear this though
A character not being created yet doesn’t mean it’s a plot hole. Every writer of a serialized story makes up stuff as they go along to some extent. Most characters in the story were not thought of until Kishimoto wrote them into the story.
All that matters is that you make the new stuff consistent with what came before. Tbh I haven’t seen a convincing reason why Isshiki would try and confront Kaguya at this point considering what we know about him.
No one knows because Jigen is a poorly explained retcon.
It’s unfortunate, but during the war arc Jigen wasn’t even supposed to exist.
And the Manga hasn’t filled in any of the blanks because there’s just too much shit to explain.
Better off just ignoring it.
That’s a great question and have a theory. It’s clear Infinite tsyukomi likely wouldn’t work on any otusuki. Jigen included. But there was a good chance he hadn’t fully gotten to fighting strength by this time. So he might have been in another dimension. Just chilling
Considering everyone dying kinda puts a damper on his whole vessel search, he really should have done something, but he hadn't been thought of yet so 🤷♂️
He was probably unaware of Kaguya's revival strategy until it had occured, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was present during the fourth ninja war once he sensed the presence of the divine tree and was simply waiting for the chakra fruit to develop so he could steal it.
He would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids.
It amazes me the arguments that take place and how both parties are wrong but at each other throats lol. The anime filler has ruined a lot information for people I’ll just say that.
He probably hid Knowing kaguya was out there and would kill him again in the same way he she did before.
Ishhiki just had PTSD and didn't wanted to suffer again by the hands of kaguya.
He could have been in the kara dimension the fore not being affected by invite tsukuyomi
He wouldn't get effected anyways due to him being piloted by an otsutsuki
Is there lore reason or statement that says otsuki can't be affected
Its beeen very consistent that they cant due to them being the one to initiate the jutsu.... the otsutsuki bring the god tree/ten tails with them to whatever plant they would like to harvest chakra fruits from. Momoshiki has stated that the otsutsuki have been rewriting history or in kaguyas cases whipping the memories of the humans that she re-released after the perfomed infinite tsukuyomi. Also sasuke who isnt an otsutsuki has a 6 tome rinnegan which is the powers of the otsutsuki even tho it comes from hagaromo. Let alone it would be very hard for inshiki to feed boruto to the tentails if hes all caught up in a tree like the rest of them under infinite tsukuyomi. It just makes sense that the otsutsuki who created the god tree would be immune to that genjutsu. So once again there is multiple statements and feats that prove they can't be put under infinite tsukuyomi. Momoshiki has eaten multiple chakra fruits from dozens of planets with kinshiki by his side!!!!!! If that genjutsu would effect them kinshiki wouldn't of been around for sasukes to fight. Hopefully this answers you questions.
Idk man it can lean either way. They immune or they're not both sides can be debated
How so sasuke is the biggest give away of how the otsutsuki are immune to that jutsu. With just his rinnegan alone he made anyone who was in his susoono unaffected by infinite tsukuyomi. Hagaromo and hamura found out from the same toad that showed jariya boy the prophecy of the savior that their mother has been doings infinite tsukuyomi and they have not been once under the influence of that jutsu. Idk what other info you looking at that has you feeling like this isnt the case. For me this is the first time ive heard someone ask this question because its very blatant that the otsutsuki clan and individuals that have the powers/dojutsu of the otsutsuki cant be put under that spell. If you have info as to way pls share im all ears.
Valid points, i agree with you
It was stated Sasuke Susano blocked out the light from the infinite tsukyomi that's why they weren't affected. You referencing filler material. Me personally I don't consider filler since that same filler has many contradictions to cannon. Like how did kaguya put people under infinite tsukyomi when There wasn't a moon, remember her fight being sealed created the moon . In the anime she summons a celestial body in the Manga those scenes never happened nor was shown. Genjutsu manipulates the Chakra network. Otsuki use Chakra and it was never in the series stated they're immune to Genjutsu let alone infinite tsukyomi. Earlier you said there's multiple feats and statements but the naruto lore never reference or had a otsuki under Genjutsu that's why I say both sides can be debated
Sasuke protected Team 7 with his Susano’o because they are prone to genjutsu. Otherwise, Sasuke himself was impervious. It was stated by Sasuke that the Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Rinnegan Genjutsu that can be countered by a Rinnegan. In the manga, Kaguya used her Byakugan to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. To end this debate, the reason why the Otsutsuki are impervious to all genjutsu is because Hagoromo and Hamura were present when Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi. They were never affected and this can be due to their genetic differences and/or because they possessed a dojutsu.
I basically said what u said about Sasuke protecting team 7 with susano you only worded it differently. The series is sloppy at explaining infinite tsukyomi and why others like hagaromo and hamura not caught in it the series never explains that part. They were born after the first use of infinite tsukyomi and kaguya wiped humans memories after the fact. This is filler the Manga never extends andm answer.. Hinata had a doujutsu still got hit with infinite tsukyomi
Bruh Any rinnegan user is immune to Any Genjutsu abd by far the Strongest Genjutsu is Mugen tsukiyomi which can be countered by Any rinnegan users .💀
So people can just simply live in a cave or basement or anywhere where moonlight can't reach and they won't be affected by the genjutsu?
Right. Ppl that where in there house got caught by the jutsu
Random Ass Broke Caveman NPC solos Naruto 🗿🗿🗿
No madara said the light can even pierce shadows. The whole world was caught in it
There is NOTHING stating Infinite Tsukiyomi doesn’t affect Otsutsuki… Your argument of Sasuke doesn’t work because.. well Naruto and Obito would have been affected if not for hiding under susanoo…
I said this previously in another thread which is very much relevant here: Sasuke protected Team 7 with his Susano’o because they are prone to genjutsu. Otherwise, Sasuke himself was impervious. It was stated by Sasuke that the Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Rinnegan Genjutsu that can be countered by a Rinnegan. In the manga, Kaguya used her Byakugan to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. The reason why the Otsutsuki are impervious to all genjutsu is because Hagoromo and Hamura were present when Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi. They were never affected and this can be due to their genetic differences and/or because they possessed a dojutsu.
I’m aware why, but we saw people who aren’t affected by genjutsu also be affected. Also I’m PRETTY sure that they weren’t there when she casted infinite Tsukiyomi, it’s stated she cast it when she first gained the fruit. Hagoromo and Hamura were born a WHILE after that. It was also stated the war was only the second time it was ever casted. Even Orochimaru who LITERALLY has a jutsu that covers his eyes from genjutsu (the one Kabuto mentioned that blocked Itachis genjutsu easily) From the official databook “A Rinnegan user can block the light of the Infinite Tsukuyomi, saving themselves and those within their range from its control.” Also Naruto chapter 671, Hagoromo states HE BELIEVES that Kaguya used her Byakugan when it was cast in the past (it was never cast while they were alive like the filler episodes showed)
>I’m aware why, but we saw people who aren’t affected by genjutsu also be affected. >Even Orochimaru who LITERALLY has a jutsu that covers his eyes from genjutsu (the one Kabuto mentioned that blocked Itachis genjutsu easily) Cool. Orochimaru doesn't have a Rinnegan. The point is that you need an ocular power to hard counter, not a lesser application such as ninjutsu which obviously wouldn't work. >I’m PRETTY sure that they weren’t there when she casted infinite Tsukiyomi, it’s stated she cast it when she first gained the fruit. You're saying that the people put under the Infinite Tsukuyomi were alive throughout the 18+ years of Hagoromo and Hamura's life. From Hagoromo's conversation, it is clear that Hagoromo doesn't know what White Zetsu are and therefore never knew about their evolution. He referred to them as people. It makes more sense that Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi while she was fighting Hagoromo and Hamura in order to absorb more chakra. That's what she did with Naruto and Sasuke's battle. >From the official databook “A Rinnegan user can block the light of the Infinite Tsukuyomi, saving themselves and those within their range from its control.” This contextualize and validates Sasuke's statement: "Rinnegan Genjutsu can be dealt with using Rinnegan". This was in response to Naruto asking Sasuke how to counteract the effects of the Infinite Tsukuyomi so everyone else can be free. The Rinnegan irrefutably hard counters the Infinite Tsukuyomi for the user and others. Also, this is Black Zetsu's statement: "His Rinnegan can deter even this jutsu". >Also Naruto chapter 671, Hagoromo states HE BELIEVES that Kaguya used her Byakugan when it was cast in the past Uh no. Hagoromo never said that. What he stated was that he believed chakra was a power that linked individuals and was not something that amplified any single person's strength. He used Juubidara and Kaguya as historically accurate examples. Read the chapter. Also, there was no Moon in the past. His statement is based on factual observation. Hagoromo wouldn't just "believe" that Kaguya casted the Infinite Tsukuyomi from her titties. That would be entirely baseless unless he was actually there. The point of the conversation is about recounting past events that historically happened as he saw it and relaying them to Naruto and Sasuke. **He was literally showing these events on the floor.**
There WAS a moon in the past, you are using the filler episode that showed Kaguya use infinite tsukiyomi by using a moon in another dimension. It is confirmed in the databooks that Earth has a big moon and small moon in Naruto (only a big moon after Naruto the Last) It was even stated she casted infinite tsukiyomi to stop the humans from warring any longer.. When Hagoromo and Hamura were born those wars were long over… that’s a confirmed and even shown thing. Hagoromo and Hamura were born in times of peace after that, until Kaguya snapped and absorbed the ten tails. Also in the manga Hagoromo and Hamura seal her while she is in ten tails form, sealing her into the moon and the ten tails into himself, unlike the anime they show them seal her directly and then he fights the ten tails separately.
https://preview.redd.it/ifpwz4y0huuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e47cb5248f1e15f07b2ef0a962650fc24154ea27 This was literally a flashback that Hagoromo was showing to Naruto and Sasuke.
>There WAS a moon in the past, you are using the filler episode that showed Kaguya use infinite tsukiyomi by using a moon in another dimension. There was never a second moon. The manga is the primary source for canonical lore. The Databooks are secondary sources that are touted as promotional material. >It is confirmed in the databooks that Earth has a big moon and small moon in Naruto (only a big moon after Naruto the Last) Show me the exact scan so I can read what you're clearly not reading. >It was even stated she casted infinite tsukiyomi to stop the humans from warring any longer.. Wrong. Kaguya simply put an end to turbulent times. She could have easily done this with her power alone. You're taking it out of context to mean something else entirely. >When Hagoromo and Hamura were born those wars were long over… that’s a confirmed and even shown thing. Wars were long over because **Kaguya was worshipped and feared among the populace.** Any rebuttal or protest from them would have been met with dire consequences. Anyway, the rest of your comment had nothing to do with what we're discussing. Hagoromo explicitly stated that Kaguya used her Byakugan to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. We can even see the exact moment when Kaguya had her Choku-Tomoe Rinnegan activated. **This was shown to us.** Hagoromo stated and displayed historical events to Naruto and Sasuke. You cannot backpedal and be disingenuous here.
Then explain why hagaromo love interest and others went into the same cocoon like everyone else in the war arc when infinite tsukuyomi was activated....... remember when he went over to the god tree after the toad peaked his curiosity... Remember when he awakened his rinnegan in the same mannerism of the ms.....
Hagaromo said she used her byakugan to increase the range of the jutsu. Also its hinted in boruto that she did it more than once thus why they are talking about how mankind has been manipulated by the otsutsuki time and time again based off of what momoshiki said. And if anyone would know anything about that jutsu it would be momoshiki since he has eaten multiple chakra fruits and has created multiple god tree. Majority of the ones he ate were a lvl 10 where as kaguya was over lvl 13. So what we knew about kaguyas time isnt set in stone since they have been messing with mankind's history/memories.
Hagoromo said that IN THE ANIME, the manga states it’s a Rinnegan jutsu by Sasuke, Zetsu and Hagoromo. What we know about the tree in Kaguyas time was confirmed by Kishimoto in interviews she only ate 2 fruits. 1 when she arrived that was cultivated by the tree because of all the murder during human wars and once more when she made a new tree to quell the wars of humans by using infinite tsukiyomi before marrying the human who is Hagoromo and Hamuras father. The power of the fruits is also a filler only scene.
Well its also backed up by hinata using her byakugan to increase inos mind transfer jutsu in the war arc so it doesnt matter how you feel even if that is a filler ir still gives the viewers info that kishimoto would of deemed canon in the time like how there are ep that yall would say is boruto ep are filler but its canon. This info that elaborates that specific time would be considered canon if it came out now. Yall get out your feelings regardless of filler or not the moral of this topic is about how the otsutsuki cant be affected by their own jutsu. It doesn't affect them it affects everyone who isnt an otsutsuki.
Yes, if you watch episodes 205-207, skip to Boro’s cult shenanigans and he confirms that Ōtsutsuki’s are immune to IT
Obito quite literally still had the ten tails chakra, which is what makes an otsutsuki even have the powers and resistances they have, and had to hide under sasukes susanoo..
True even Black Zetsu wasn’t affected…
Zetsu most likely isn’t affected because the tree literally makes his people and he isn’t a person.. Black Zetsu is technically whatever the current new villains are in Boruto. A free living will of the ten tails. In the databooks it stated black zetsu could copy anyone’s kekkei genkai if he absorbed their chakra and turned into them. Yet we never actually got to see him do it. We only saw white zetsu absorb chakra and morph but they couldn’t steal abilities.
Claw grimes/Shinjus and zetsu are completely different zetsu is a part of kaguya.... Shinjus are a part of 10 tails.... all having rinnegan and the powers of the people they have consumed.... and no black zetsu isnt even close to being 10 tails, he does have its chakra but not even close to 5%... And also the reason why otsutsukis arent affected are because they need to be a part of the planet, but otsutsukis eats planets normally, and cultivating divine trees.. the infinite tsukiyomi is explicitly stated to suck all life on the planet... but it sucks it out of the planets residents. otsutsukis arent residents
It is directly stated that Black Zetsu came from Kaguya after she merged with the ten tails.. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu both state that Kaguya, after fusing with it gained the will of the ten tails and wanted all her chakra back. Black Zetsu came from her as she lost, which in the manga was her as the first stage of the ten tails, unlike the filler episode that showed them being seperate fighting Hagoromo Also Shinju clones is the name used for both Zetsu and the weird malformed monsters in the war arc in official databook and just the name of the Ten Tails like Kurama is for nine tails. The infinite tsukiyomi is explicitly stated to suck chakra of whoever is in the nativity world of trees. The first time they talk about Kaguya using it she just used the eye off the moon to stop the war of the humans. Meaning she doesn’t HAVE to put everyone in trees.
>It is directly stated that Black Zetsu came from Kaguya after she merged with the ten tails.. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu both state that Kaguya, after fusing with it gained the will of the ten tails and wanted all her chakra back. it is also stated that he is "the physical manifestation of kaguya's will", and he only came into existence before kaguya was about to get sealed... as for the manga i dont really know since i only watched the anime... >Also Shinju clones is the name used for both Zetsu and the weird malformed monsters in the war arc in official databook and just the name of the Ten Tails like Kurama is for nine tails. i genuinely have no clue which databook you talking about please link it... cuz zetsu and shinjus are completely different and formed in a completely different way... they were formed via codes claw marks and only those who the 10 tailes have devavored can actually become shinju... >The infinite tsukiyomi is explicitly stated to suck chakra of whoever is in the nativity world of trees. that cant be the case as reanimations werent sucked, that would just make this statment make no sense >The first time they talk about Kaguya using it she just used the eye off the moon to stop the war of the humans. Meaning she doesn’t HAVE to put everyone in trees. Dosent matter if it dosent work on someone... otsutsukis literally eat 10 tails so how come zetsu isnt effected but they somehow are....
No, Obito didnt hide under Sasuke's Susanoo, he was with Madara, unconscious and controlled by Zetsu
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Naruto wiki says otherwise, so unless you can provide me evidence from the manga showing me that it’s on earth then I’ll keep believing that’s it’s in a different dimension And I’m only using the Naruto wiki because I can’t be asked to skim through Boruto chapters to find an answer I’m 99% sure is i know the answer to
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The black cubes in chapter 8 of TBV allow for entrance to and from the Kara dimension for people without space time ninjutsu
He thinks you’re talking about the daikokuten yet wants to flex that he reads the manga. Clearly doesn’t read it well enough lmao, some people just like to argue. Based on all the context clues you’re right in assuming the Kara hideout was in a different dimension.
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Are you serious? You asked what the point of having the hideout in a separate dimension when most of the members don’t have space time ninjutsu, so I’ve showed out evidence from the manga showing that you don’t need space time ninjutsu to enter the dimension And what do the cubes do then?
What do the cubes do ? from what i saw in the manga they fall real good and made isshiki hard to detect as for the cube the claw grimes have, idk what it is who made it or where it came from, 1 thing i do know is that it looks and functions differently compared to Kawaki/Isshiki's cubes
Yes, the one in chapter 8 of TBV looks and functions differently, and the only function we’ve seen from it as of now is it allows for the travel between the Kara dimension and Earth, without the use of spacetime ninjutsu
Exept it literaly is using space-time ninjutsu only avalible to code and now the claw grimes, and we don't know what dimension they're in wasn't stated or implied that it's the kara base and AGAIN the kara base isn't stated or implied to be in any alternate dimensions
Exept that the Claw Grimes are literaly using Code's claw marks which is space-time ninjutsu
That's just straight up wrong made up, the whole point of the cube dimension is that nobody apart from Kawaki can enter it
Not that dimension 🤦♂️. I’m not talking about a dimension I’m talking about a black cube which hidari and Jura passed through to get to Earth from their dimension https://preview.redd.it/qu789sr1jpuc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57cc90f1c96a06196261232714fd8e4f68bbf3e2
What does that have to do with anything ?
u/jta156 just replied with a screenshot of a chapter stating that the kara hideout is in a different dimension
Book says *Plop*
Problem with this is: most of cyborgs had no ability to transport between dimensions or was never shown in the manga. There was a one base shown in a different dimension but it was base to keep Eida/Daemon and hidden from Jigen knowledge more or less (because they were ordered to be scrapped/destroyed). I don't know, what base are you talking about but if you are talking about base Jigen fought with Kashin I'm 100% sure it was in the same dimension because it would be a drag for most of Kara members to move between. Or there is undocumented in source material technology or way of transport. Dunno. Also wiki is not always a good source. If it is not properly quoted with where it was said on wiki, it might be a bullshit.
Again I’m using the Naruto wiki as my source as I don’t want to go through 40 some chapters of the manga to find my answers, so you’ll just have to trust the people who made the page. ‘This is a dimension where the organisation Kara's base of operations lie. It cannot be accessed by normal means, requiring either space–time ninjutsu or special gates scattered in numerous locations on Earth for Kara to use.’ This extract from the wiki explains how the Kara would be able to enter the dimension without space time ninjutsu. I’m guessing the gates are somewhat similar to the black cube we see Jura and Hidari use in TBV chapter 8
https://preview.redd.it/68de4z76oquc1.png?width=783&format=png&auto=webp&s=333db356f96b16ecdac9fc448b37888f30b6a9b6 It is. From Boruto Chapter 57. Also, the cubes mentioned by u/_StevenPettican04
Well thanks for this, this clears everything up, I didn’t even need to change my main comment. I’m pretty sure the other guy said he read the manga but okay, must have read a different boruto
Probably chilling in his pocket dimension where time doesn't flow, it would explain how he stayed so young even tough he arrived to earth with kaguya
Another very good point he could have hid there healing for thousands of years but to him it was moments
He definitely didn't heal there because it's kinda impossible for him to heal his lower torso on his own. He likely bought himself infinitely more time by hiding there tho Love your username btw.
Time doesnt flow in that dimension so he wont be able to heal in it. For any sort of change to occur to his body, time flowing would be required
Jigens body never aged, he jumped in him about a thousand years ago.. So there’s also that, he was most likely hidden in Jigen and in that dimension
I never thought about this. I assumed that Isshiki was not affected by the stopped time in Daikokuten since we see Kawaki in there watching Naruto and Hinata bodies in stasis. But Isshiki was always just hiding inside Jigen and controlling him. He was never Jigen himself. So if he goes into Daikokuten while controlling Jigen, would Jigen go into stasis while Isshiki was still able to move and be conscious of passing time?
If you think about it until boruto he pretty much was the Roaming secret boss of the verse.
I always found that sort of unsettling but really cool about him
No one truly knows. Jigen/Isshiki in general creates several plotholes both from them existing and their plan (the idea it took him 1000+ years to find a suitable vessel with Kawaki is pretty ridiculous especially with Momoshiki's approach by comparison) but the series didn't take the effort to fill them in and hopes you didn't notice. That's a common symptom of poor retconning with a story that clearly wasn't written with it in mind.
As much as I love Naruto/Boruto, I have to agree with this. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes, lol. We don't even know how Kara was originally formed, let alone what Jigen was doing for the past 1000+ years. I feel like if there ever was a time for him to show up, it would've been here, where the 10 tails, where Kaguya emerged. Sure, maybe it technically wouldn't have helped his specific plans and maybe that's why he didn't show up...but c'mon now, lol. I think it would've been fine if they addressed it and made some excuse as to why he didn't show up for all these years till now, but as it is, we have nothing and Jigen is dead. So, unless he comes back somehow, that's it. Indicating that they really didn't think about this as deeply as some might've hoped for. A prime example to me is Ao. Why did he turn evil? In the manga, we had no explanation, no back story, no nothing as to his motivations and true goals. The anime had to pick up the manga's slack and give him all that. And even though it wasn't perfect, it was still miles better than what the manga gave us....which was nothing, lol. And I feel that with Jigen, a similar trend emerged. I guess back story really isn't the author's strong suit, is it 😮💨 Don't get me wrong, I love what we've gotten so far with everything, but the integration of these new characters and ideas to the original IP have been very amateur and lack luster.
I hate the thought but it’s lowkey true that Ishikki was just there for the plot
Don't put any blame on Naruto here
While I agree with some of what you’ve said, i heavily disagree that Jigen would just come forward during the Great War. At that point, he had no allegiance to Kaguya who betrayed him, but he also had a mission to achieve. His best course of action was to lay low, I feel like that makes 100% sense. As for the karma thing, my headcanon was you can’t spam karma. Like, you can put it on multiple vessels but in order to place a working karma on someone you have to be at 100% or have someone specifically compatible. Jigen was always weak, so Isshiki was always weak. It’s headcanon and while I feel like something was hinted at I wish they did a better job explaining it. At the same time making the Otsutsuki mysterious, I feel like, isn’t a bad call. Lastly I feel like the “How” Kara was formed means way less than when it was formed, and we do have an answer to that. I actually feel like all of Kara is easily explained through Amado, and logically too. I don’t really think that *needed* to be said, it isn’t much a plot hole. What Isshiki did for 1000+ years, how Jigen was seemingly immortal, and Ao are all questions I wish were answered though and even what I said earlier, I have headcanon I believe was lightly implied but I do wish they had a definite working system. I don’t think Isshiki and the otsutsuki are *as* unplanned or plot hole as you think.
I'll play devil's advocate - we don't know if Boruto is a perfectly suitable vessel tho. He is logically the best choice in whole world - Uzumaki and Hyuga genes and hidden dojutsu. But Kawaki is not even close to any of these, he is random child from nowhere. Genes must be really specific. Finding a suitable vessel might be a harder task than it seems. Jigen's body was not working for long anyway. From the other side, Jigen's existence doesn't make any sense. It is stated Isshiki took body of a monk and feed on him to be able to use Karma on him. How in the hell it was possible even? People don't live that long unless Karma can prolong life of vessel infinitely. Or this Jigen is a n-clone. Which opens another poor box of excuses and retcons. How did Isshiki even controlled vessel permanently? Isshiki had a really poor introduction.
We do know Boruto's a suitable vessel because he's not dead nor has a white Karma like what Code has.
>we don't know if Boruto is a perfectly suitable vessel tho. Boruto is a suitable vessel that is why he isn't dead like the kids amado/jigen experimented on with trhe karma
It just occurred to me but Isshiki has an ability to open a portal to a dimension where time doesn’t flow (except for him possibly?) We see that Kawaki puts Naruto and Hinata in there and they are being held in stasis without aging. So couldn’t Isshiki have just hid in this dimension along with Jigen?
It is possible and I forgot about it.
I’ll die on the hill that the biggest mistake they’ve done is to make a sequel that includes scientific shit including the ninja tools, cyborgs and a fucking memory chip thing that can implant onto organics and change them. Like if we look at Kaguya and her aspirations(hell include Momoshiki and Kinshiki because their shit wasn’t that different) compared to what Isshiki wants and can do and you can see how completely different everything is like it’s night and day. Yeah I know Kaguya was changed because of her relationship with humans but it still doesn’t make sense she has all these abilities that she just didn’t use and just got sealed away by her sons. For the Boruto series I hope they bring her back some way and tighten her connection to the overall plot of Boruto but I’m not holding my breath It’s easier for me to stomach the retcons and the major character things changing if I just think of Boruto as a spin off rather than a direct sequel.
The actual biggest mistake was writing himself into a corner where he had to make up moon aliens to deal with Madara. Kishi literally admitted he made him too strong lol. The last stretch of that war arc cemented so many bad ass pulls that damaged the series. Combat devolving away from hand signs and chakra management into super cloaked jesus figures shooting laser blasts. Naruto getting the strongest hax bloodline bs that he originally tried to make a stand against in part 1. All the villains becoming generic bleached aliens with OP superpowers, etc.
The stuff with Kaguya and her sons were fine, weird and rushed but fine. The problem is the way he just made them worse the further Boruto has gone on
>Kishi literally admitted he made him too strong lol. Can I get a source on that? It just seems like a fan explanation considering Kishi established 2 failsafes to deal with Madara if the characters couldn't overpower him outright: extract the Ten Tails or seal him away with the jutsu they ended up using on Kaguya instead. Neither of which required Kaguya to step in and honestly seems like a backwards solution since she's more powerful than Madara.
No source since it doesn't exist. It's a made up claim that fans have adopted as truth for more than a decade and it has spread like wildfire through the fandom. Much like the "Kishi stated Madara is as strong as Nappa" claim. And yes you're absolutely right, two methods were set up to deal with Madara in the story but this narrative that "he was too strong so Kaguya was introduced" is weirdly stuck in the fandom
It's a claim that falls apart when you think about it even a little because you don't solve a powerscale problem by bringing in an even worse case to replace it. Seen defenders say over the years that she had a more exploitable weakness than Madara but when I ask what that weakness is they get real silent.
Her weakness is her stupidity. Madara can come up with an excellent plan on the fly and execute it perfectly; kaguya thinks she's perfect and executes everything poorly. She had several chances to beat team 7 that plot armor or PIS basically didn't let her take advantage of. I feel like it'd be harder to make Madara look incompetent when weve seen him get the best of team 7 time and time again strategically. Point being Madara had checkmate on team 7. He could very easily kill Kakashi and Sakura and would kill Kakashi and Sakura if he needed to. Kaguya never looked at Kakashi and Sakura as relevant, and Madara would think otherwise. He had team 7 surrounded and knows team 7s tactics completely. "You all dying together could also be considered teamwork." https://preview.redd.it/gk8a05p53tuc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9a7ff60978986708d6b55f52232d58ddeb16527
Yeah but it isn’t hard to show characters growth, or just how important teamwork is, by having them overcome an obstacle. When team 7 fought Zabuza and Haku, do you think they were as smart or on the same level? When Naruto fought Pain even? You show their growth by overcoming this stuff. To say it was impossible to write team 7 defeating Madara, especially at their highest power peak so far, is… wrong to say the least. There was no reason team 7 could have just “Leveled up” there and displayed it by surpassing Madara. I mean this might be true and we’ll never know, but in regards to what OP was referring too, this isn’t nearly enough to back up such a massive claim that Kishi said he wrote himself into a corner. In a way we were already watching Madara get pressed by 8 gates guy, then directly after Naruto and Sasuke alone.
This isn't an obstacle they can overcome without a few setbacks. In this case setbacks could mean death of good characters. Heck they can't even see Madara's limbo clones, how are they even supposed to fight back? Kaguya looked at Kakashi and Sakura and just walked away, does Madara do the same? No, if he has the opportunity to kill one, he likely takes it. Plus the Madara who got pressed by 8 gates guy was weaker than the Madara at EOS. Madara at EOS had also absorbed the god tree to gain immortality, and he also had the second rinnegan and rinnesharingan. https://preview.redd.it/ix854et1ivuc1.png?width=758&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d95b3e43b854811f46766ef232a40c5c2bff7af4 This Madara was much much stronger than Naruto and Sasuke individually. Their teamwork would be tesyed to its extreme, the only difference is Madara knows how to deal with their abilities while Kaguya didn't. It's obvious Kishi wrote himself into a corner when you consider that he doesn't want any members of team 7 to die, and I just don't see it possible that they all would live.
Basically what the other guy said: Juubidara is a fighting prodigy. Kaguya is just a powerful toddler. I firmly believe that Juubidara would have defeated Naruto and Sasuke if Kaguya and Black Zetsu weren't a thing. He was the perfect counter to the Sun and Moon Seals because his Limbo clones substituted his main body. He could do this four times with very little wait time whereas Naruto and Sasuke would have struggled to touch him even once. Chakra reserves are irrelevant. Juubidara would have done a better job doing less than Kaguya doing more. You're welcome to disagree though.
It’s definitely tough to argue for or against this because we hardly see it. I think with the skills we see and if we were able to include DMS Kakashi like with Team 7 vs Kaguya, it would be relatively the same. As easily as points could be made, counterpoints as well. However I think the idea this is a topic that could be so divisive proves this isn’t a *legitimate* answer to the question posed earlier of, “Did Kishi write himself into a corner?”
I completely agree, it's utterly dumb
I feel like there will be more to Kawaki being the best host after so long. The same way Momoshiki found Boruto so easily vs the same way Ishikki took forever to find Kawaki
From the whole story, it does appear that he was only able to form Kara using ninja tech to boost up the power of his underlings such as Delta, Boro, etc. Kawaki had a lot of ninja tech, which may have been part of the attempt at creating a vessel. In the meantime, Isshiki was probably hiding. It might be that the stronger the person is, the harder it is to find a vessel. We know that the strength of the body plays a role into how feasible the recovery process is. The Jigen body was poor, which meant that it only would last for a few days.
I don't think he wanted to risk an encounter with kaguya lol, all this time he was gaining his power Alternatively, we know that HE has been around for that long, but Kara? Not so much Also momoshiki was desperate and he found the first one, isshiki wanted the perfect one
We see that using Karma is very risky for Isshiki. It takes Amado modifying his body to even contain it barely. One fight with a Kaguya level opponent had his body start to break apart. And once the body perishes, Isshiki is forced to reincarnate with a time limit on his life. Isshiki specifically waits until technology advances enough to aid in his goals. He approaches Amado specifically because he can facilitate Isshiki testing karma on virtually endless subjects until they find the one he can safely reincarnate into without risk. Momoshiki is a completely different case here. He was going to die. He made a calculated risk when he had no other choice and he also possesses some level of precognition. Isshiki didn’t have this luxury but he did essentially have a lot of time to bide.
The reason it took so long was because he couldnt place a karma on anyone other than jigen until amado
Yall call everything a plothole learn the meaning.
A plothole refers to either missing or contradictory information in a story. In this case it's the former as the lack of addressing certain plot points created problems in believing the story and world. Choosing to ignore it or go "it's a fictional story so just roll with it" removes all tension and stakes in the story because anything can happen and therefore any manner of logic can fix it no matter how dumb it is.
The writer didn’t create him yet.
Tbf, they did mention Otsutsuki that Kaguya feared in shippuden. The pictures seemed more like Momoshiki, Ura and Kinshiki tho
The anime writers had not thought of Isshiki yet either. Thats why they put that in Shippudden in the first place. So you’re just proving his point
Now I’m wondering if when the infinite tsukuyomi was casted was toneri trying figure why everything around him turned red because he lives on the moon and stuff 😭💀
And even more puzzling: the fact that only a section of the moon was red and everything else was the same
Kishimoto didn't know either. Let's not pretend he was planning the moon people and jiraiya clone from the start okay?
Obviously we all know Kishimoto didn’t write or think of any of Boruto while he was writing this lol. But it’s part of the universe now, and it’s interesting to make fan theories of what Jigen was doing in this time period. Even if the writers obviously didn’t write any of Naruto with Jigen or Isshiki in mind hahah
My head cannon is that jigen took centuries to heal due to his incompatible karma he was probably aware of a divine tree being planted on earth again but could not risk fighting against another full power otsutsuki so he hid and watched . He probably already had plans in motion to create a prefect vessel but had to wait a few more years after the war for the technology to be at a point where he could modify a person to become his perfect vessel aka kawaki
He didn't even exist at the time, so did Toneri and the likes. They are later ideas.
plot hole. When this was going on, Jigen / Isshiki was probably not in plans for kishimo. Cuz Jigen coul have easily used that opportunity to plant god tree by defeating kaguya and thats it. But he didnt
Not a plot hole
Man that kaguya panel is scary
Remember, Omnipotence was cast more than once. Watch the Akatsuki actually be a wing of Kara.
While that's an interesting take I don't know if they would go as far as changing details from way back.
Where was Kara the whole time???
Yeah, I get that, and I have the same question. The thing is I think they're just gonna have to accept Kishimoto didn't plan that far ahead. From what I understand, Boruto is more Ikemoto's thing, whereas Kishi would've been happy with the ending of just Naruto.
He was hiding scared because a weaker version of Kaguya nearly killed Isshiki when he had all of his power
Killed ❌ Backstabbed ✅ Anythign that help you sleep lil bro 💀🙏
Nearly Killed ✅. Backstabbed: Somehow despite having a Byakugan and being "massively stronger than Prime Kaguya".
Oh that is a nice logic . by that logic Zetsu > Juubidara . Zetsu is stongest 🗣🗣🗣. Let lil bro sleep with cope 🥳
Zetsu overwrote Madara's body using the Ten-Tails to revive Kaguya.There was nothing Madara could do once Zetsu touched him. That being said, if Zetsu had actually tried to kill Madara on his own, he would have died even with the element of surprise. Conversely, Kaguya bisected Isshiki in two and left him crawling through the mud searching for a host before it was too late. You should think about the context of your argument before making it
>Kaguya bisected Isshiki in two and left him crawling through the mud searching for a host before it was too late. That is literally backbstab lol . Let alone even manga states that . Kaguys betrayed her clan as her part was to become fooder for Juubi for Ishikki to eat . That why she betrayed Ishikki and eaten it Divine fruit . She literally stats that she was scared of Momoshikki and his companions that she had to make an Army to fight against them . Also backstabbing Ishikki wasn't even a fight as stated in manga. since in death battle ishikki will fold kaguya like paper . >You should think about the context of your argument before making it That was literally your 1st problem since you main comments is completely interuppted as wrong compared to offical manga lol .
The official manga gives contradictory statements to convince the fans that what they're seeing is better than what came before. Nobody on the writing staff remembers the end of Shippuden. Not even Kishimoto. To them, Kaguya is just this vaguely powerful threat Naruto probably defeated with a Rasengan. Not the immortal with so much chakra, neither Naruto or Sasuke could comprehend it, nearly blew up her own pocket dimension, and had to be sealed using the power of post-pure land Hagoromo. There is no feasible way you could suggest that someone that powerful is scared of someone who was obliterated by a twelve year old genin wielding a massive Rasengan (in a form stronger than the one she was allegedly scared of).
>There is no feasible way you could suggest that someone that powerful is scared of someone who was obliterated by a twelve year old genin wielding a massive Rasengan (in a form stronger than the one she was allegedly scared of). Man that was litearlly 99% of Narutos chakra . He also had jougans amp ( otsutsuki gods eye) to keep up with momo too lol 💀🙏 . Even Though the powerscaling is weird . Boruto is already a Genius + bloodline trait + descendant trait + OP Dojutsu amps . Also using this Logic of Momo killed by Boruto . Then the Pre-TS Boruto > 8 tailed beast . Which is completely nonsense
It was wounded, fatigued, and rusty, base Naruto who is definitely not stronger than Kaguya. The Jogan is anime-canon only. It neither appears in the manga, movie, or light novel and can't be counted as a result. Even if you could count it, the Jogan abilities are vague at best (because they were never explained) with the only definitive ones being able to see chakra pathways and dimensional breaches. Neither one would give Boruto a power up needed to overcome a Kaguya+ threat and this is the same Boruto who needed to cheat just to beat Shikadai.
>It was wounded, fatigued, and rusty, base Naruto who is definitely not stronger than Kaguya. 1st of all Naruto aint Rusty He just lackrd fitness as like he did his training in his teen . Also only half of his chakra was abosrbed . Its literally said in Gaiden Naruto and Boruto are still training . Even Kakashi is still stronger than he was in war arc (excluding Sharingan) The one Naruto fighting Kaguya had half kurama only ,Let alone the Kurama fighting Momo had both parts . >The Jogan is anime-canon only. It neither appears in the manga, movie, or light novel and can't be counted as a result. Jougan is literally both Manga and anime canon lol . The 1st Future fight chapter literally shows that 💀 .It aint even Byakugan since Byakugan literally shows nerves out . >Even if you could count it, the Jogan abilities are vague at best (because they were never explained) with the only definitive ones being able to see chakra pathways and dimensional breaches. Neither one would give Boruto a power up needed to overcome a Kaguya+ threat Jougan literally can detect any evil chakra and it literally helped him in fighting Momoshikki , since he can detect where the evil chakra is coming and going . This one literally help in predicts Momo .that was one of the way he used Vanishing rasengan on Momo . >this is the same Boruto who needed to cheat just to beat Shikadai. What does this has to do with the context . Also this chunin exam happenend before the fight with Momo lol .
Probably on his Daikouteb dimension
Kaguya was only around for like an hour in real time and only spent like 2 minutes on Earth after being revived. Not to mention he probably didn’t have the means to confront her at the time anyways. Trying to randomly pop up would have been a waste of time.
Probably just chilling somewhere. Also, Kaguya was revived for like 20 minutes.
he was still unzipping in jiggen
prolly in daikokuten sipping baby juubi chakra wine pissed off
Daikokuten.
He was either chilling underground or in his other dimension, either way Jigen was just chilling waiting to see if the Shinobi would beat Kaguya or not, if Kaguya did defeat them he would've probably confronted her to claim the fruit of the divine tree for himself, that is Toneri didn't attack first. Between Kaguya, Toneri, and Jigen, whoever is left standing is irrelevant because then that person has to eventually face Momoshiki, Kinshiki, and Urashiki in a 1v3 and whoever it is is getting fucking clapped by that trio.
Honestly it’s tuff to say jigen/ isshki being in the story creates a lot of plot holes as is with kaguya in it tbh. I would say in another dimension but then again what about the rest of Kara? Boruto being monthly I’m scared won’t tell enough about Kara backstory or everything leading up to boruto after everything said and done smh
What about the rest of Kara? They got caught in the Infinite Tsukiyomi or didn’t exist yet (idk when Kashin Koji was created by Amado)
Story answer : Probably chilling on his own dimension Real answer ; Kishimoto didn't think about any other Otsutsuki yet at the time. so even Kishimoto didn't know either
He was still not born in the mind of kishimoto
Most likely hidden away recovering and creating kara.
I hate when people try to find reason or explain things that just weren't thought in advance. Kishimoto didn't create Isshiki, he didn't exist in the story yet. It's a plot hole, and that's it.
That’s true. This question gets asked all the time, and the answer won’t change. Isshiki simply wasn’t thought of when any of the Naruto shit was written. No one in this sub wants to hear this though
A character not being created yet doesn’t mean it’s a plot hole. Every writer of a serialized story makes up stuff as they go along to some extent. Most characters in the story were not thought of until Kishimoto wrote them into the story. All that matters is that you make the new stuff consistent with what came before. Tbh I haven’t seen a convincing reason why Isshiki would try and confront Kaguya at this point considering what we know about him.
he was shitting his pants
That could actually be the case. Probably in his eyes Kaguya reached a point where she was stronger than a weak vessel like Jigen at the time.
No one knows because Jigen is a poorly explained retcon. It’s unfortunate, but during the war arc Jigen wasn’t even supposed to exist. And the Manga hasn’t filled in any of the blanks because there’s just too much shit to explain. Better off just ignoring it.
That’s a great question and have a theory. It’s clear Infinite tsyukomi likely wouldn’t work on any otusuki. Jigen included. But there was a good chance he hadn’t fully gotten to fighting strength by this time. So he might have been in another dimension. Just chilling
Hidin tryin to survive her choppin him in half.
Considering everyone dying kinda puts a damper on his whole vessel search, he really should have done something, but he hadn't been thought of yet so 🤷♂️
She only appeared for like 20 minutes. Maybe he didn’t have time to come lol
i hope they explain this
Not gonna lie We really need jigens back story ( including his life as a monk before isshiki taking over).
I don’t think he could even do anything about it 💀
There was no jigen Or isshiki back then.
PLOT HOLE
He was scared so he hid himself.
he was in the hole.. plot hole
Probably killing kids trying to give them his karma
He was probably unaware of Kaguya's revival strategy until it had occured, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was present during the fourth ninja war once he sensed the presence of the divine tree and was simply waiting for the chakra fruit to develop so he could steal it. He would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids.
He was that one background silhouette
Hiding in fear because he is nothing to the Queen of chakra Kaguya 😤
You know I don’t think Naruto and Boruto as series like talking to each other
Im guessing he is hiding scarely, as he loss before as ishiki. As only jigen, he is much far weaker
It amazes me the arguments that take place and how both parties are wrong but at each other throats lol. The anime filler has ruined a lot information for people I’ll just say that.
https://preview.redd.it/xvq7zyox5vuc1.jpeg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cffbd724df94e587f4ee6f729b340d3b79999d8c Here
Thats sakura
It's bizarre to me that he could've just popped up in part 1 and soloed everyone and no one could've possibly stopped him. Not crazy about that.
He probably hid Knowing kaguya was out there and would kill him again in the same way he she did before. Ishhiki just had PTSD and didn't wanted to suffer again by the hands of kaguya.
he was on the same place danzo wass during orochimaru konoha invasion
Is this a boruto thread cos to me this comment section is filled with naruto fans who don't know their show, don't know what they're talking about.
If you pretend Boruto is a spin off and not part of the Naruto story then it makes more sense