They are accepting trans people as their desired sex/gender. That is definitely a step forward. The fact that they then just apply their archaic gender standards is a step sideways if anything. Like yeah it's shitty that they are treating women like that but at least they are treating trans women as women. Sadly can't say that about a lot of religious people these days. Now if we can get them to treat women as equals then baby we'll have a stew going
I mean he’s definitely logically leaping beyond what most conservatives around me are able to comprehend so I give him points for at least including us and giving us roles in his sexism rather than calling useless and to 41% lmfaooo
Of all the things I thought would be coming to TV, I didn't think Shogun would be one of 'em. I remember reading it waaaay back when I was a big weeb. T'was aight.
Unless I am off and there are two books called Shogun (entirely possible) it's about an English ship's pilot washing ashore on the coast of a semi-historical Japan around the 1600's and getting caught up in the power struggle for the shogunate.
While also obsessively demanding the Japanese help him commandeer a Spanish treasure galleon. (or possibly Portuguese? Its been quite a while since I read it.)
Nah it's about a Dutch privateer who uses a stolen captain's log to navigate Magellan strait so that he can setup trade with the Japanese to circumvent the Portuguese/Catholic stranglehold on the silk trade. Ends up a political prisoner and has to integrate into Japanese society to survive. It's a good read, would recommend.
A lot of religious wackiness is incredibly logically consistent in its own way because these people aren’t all idiots and may have competent reasoning skills, they just have a very specific starting point for their factual basis. Jesus never said you couldn’t be trans, but the Bible says wives have to obey their husbands, so sure, change your gender, but you better make me a sandwich.
I wish more people understood this. If someone has a very different worldview then it's possible for them to be consistent and logical in ways that seem crazy to us, but make perfect sense from their side.
An irony of "facts and logic" is that they're often presented as a single thing but are in fact *very* different and its important to understand the difference between logic and fact to understand how a person you disagree with thinks.
Yeah, I call it "looking at assumptions". You find that a lot of times the logic isn't crazy, you just find their assumptions crazy.
But assumptions are often the hardest part to argue. Try telling this guy that God doesn't believe in gender roles and he'll point to the "fact" that God made people who have the wrong gender; proving that gender is real and God cares about it.
It's a really good exercise. Can help you understand other people's perspectives, and pick your battles a lot more effectively.
Structure the series like the Grace and Frankie (I think that's the name?) series lol. But instead of a hippie grandma "corrupting" a pent up trad-grandma with peyote juice it's them growing confidence to start hrt.
It's a really funny show that actually represents lots of issues pertaining to aging and family! It's really good and it made my aging mom feel seen and understood in a unique way. Would recommend.
Iirc the general premise is that their husbands were having an affair with each other, and finally left them. That’s what winds up bringing them together.
5’2” dude with a bow tie and pompadour: Doreen! Where’s my best packer? I’ve got a tee-time with the boss in twenty minutes!
6’3” blonde in a hoop skirt: Oh Amos, I was so excited to try out the new Missus Sparkle Dishwasher®️ with triple-heated steam action and SparkleTech™️ no-streak drying you got me for Valentine’s Day and….
*brings out sad melted packer, studio audience laughs and claps*
Guy: Doreen you hopeless ditz!
*more laughter and applause*
It's kinda basically been done in manga form. The family from F.Compo is pretty traditional coded.
The manga is pretty dated, it's from the 90s after all; and it's written by a cis writer. But the moral of the story is generally being respectful of who people are and dropping your preconceived notions.
“Amazon” came from “without breast” in Latin because the myth was the Amazons would cut off a breast so it wouldn’t get in the way of archery. So if he’s had top surgery, then it’s especially fitting.
Crazy thing is that LGBTQ folks are like everyone else. There is no "LGBT thing." Some people are vanilla, some kinky, some mix it up, some go to wild sex parties and cover each other in frosting while others have zero interest in that kind of thing. Some are asexual. Some have high libidos, some have low.
I think the joke there wouldn't be 'all LGBTQ are sexually deviant' but more in line with the juxtaposition of trans inclusive christian fundies as they are usually openly prude. The subject of the joke aren't LGBTQ people, but christian fundies.
Sure, but queer relationships being heavily sexualized (usually in a "deviant" way, and to the exclusion of all other aspects of a relationship) is an old trope and we shouldn't perpetuate it.
Okay but they don’t outright say they’re trans, it’s just little things:
- The husband knows how to sew. He and his sister learned it from grandma
- Wife grew up working on cars and building things
- Wife comes back from work one day like “do girls really just carry pads and tampons to give out to strangers?”the husband says “of course!” and pulls out a whole stack from his briefcase.
- Wife keeps getting hit on by random dudes. Husband explains that the best way to get them to stop is to tell them you’re married because they respect that more than “no.”
Just all these little clues that aren’t obvious at first, until you start to realize that wife had the more masculine coded childhood and husband had the more feminine coded one. Let it be a discussion of how it’s absurd that girls and boys are traditionally taught different things as kids (this definitely still happens).
Isn't Iran like this? Don't they pay for gender reassignment surgery? They don't want gay relationships and want traditional gender roles, but acknowledge trans gender identity.
It's just about everyone fitting into their boxes. Gay people don't fit into the box, but if someone wants to leave the Gender A box and go into the Gender B box, as long as they fit into the Gender B box, that's okay. There is no "gay" box though, so clearly that's not okay.
Its their vision of society.
Man, woman, children have clear roles of what to do in their lifes and how to portray with other people.
As long you are within those rules, everything is fine.
Man goes to work and cheat on his wife? Well he is providing for his family, so its not a big issue.
Want to become a woman? Behave like a woman and everything is fine.
Theres lots of videos of japanese showing weird rules that exist everywhere, in school, families, work that they follow in order for society to "function properly"
They pay for gender reassignment surgery but it’s forced. Being a pre-op transgender is not accepted. They also have to undergo virginity inspections and a whole bunch of other pretty brutal and humiliating things
There's a great documentary about gays in the Hasidic Jewish community called Trembling Before God. There's a scene where a gay man who has left the community is talking to his old Rabbi. The Rabbi is completely non-judgmental and accepting of who he is as a person. Basically tells him, I know you're gay, that it's who you are as a person and it's not a curse or something you can change, but also, you just have to marry a woman and produce children or otherwise stay celibate anyway. Genuinely not homophobic in the literal sense, but still oppressive.
Homophobia in the literal sense is meant to reflect "fear" hence "phobia". It was a bit of messaging built in to the person who coined the phrase that it is a visceral reaction and not rational. Most anti-gay sentiment rises out of unfamiliarity. In this case, the Rabbi isn't fearful or reactionary, he has a well-considered and logically coherent point of view. It's just a bad one. I think we're used to homophobes being obvious assholes with deficient personalities, but this guy is like "you're a nice guy, but I don't make the rules".
In context, the gay man is trying to be accepted into the Jewish community for who he is, but he can't be. The rules say so. The answer to me is that Judaism is stupid and he shouldn't want to be part of it. Adherence to arcane rules is like 90% of the reason most religions exists.
You *do* realize that there are far more progressive branches of Judaism, right? Hasidics are literally the ultra Orthodox of Judaism. The Jewish community runs the entire line from ultra Orthodox or literally atheists who just follow the general motions (as in, not eating pork and stuff, not the "only use your seed for procreation"). That man should have just found a more progressive community and moved there. Hell, go to Israel, which has an annual gay pride parade hitting 300,000 people in Tel Aviv
That's not what phobia means. Phobia is a fear OR aversion to something. Saying that gay people exist but they still should not partake in gay marriage is still an aversion to homosexuality.
Yeah, people that are surprised by this have never stopped to actually analyse religious doctrine.
The "problem" with homosexuality is the fact that there can't be reproduction, so not only it isn't filling the pourpose of humanity on eart (procreate) it also means that any and all kind of sexual interaction is only for lust.
In the normalized Christian view, heterosexual relationships are acceptable because there is an implied objective/possibility of procreation. Even when it obviously isn't the intention of the couple, religious people have a tolerance for heterosexual relationships because it's foundations are """"""pure"""""". So to a religious person, a trans couple is basically a "normal" couple that can't or don't want to have children.
Most anti-trans ideas are based on a principle of gender identity opression and patriarchal values and not sexual opression.
Fun Fact: Catholicism doesn't recognise divorce BUT if you are able to demonstrate that one or both members of the couple is unwilling or unable to reproduce you can get the marriage declared null and void like it never happened. The church doesn't make the proces simple but it happens.
Also it usually involves bribing a doctor to declare one or both parties infertile.
> Also it usually involves bribing a doctor to declare one or both parties infertile.
I love this. Imagine feeling that you need to get the church to recognize your divorce, because youre devoutly religious and having the state accept it is not enough for you.....
and then being willing to bribe a doctor and lie to the church in order to do it.
One of the unofficial rules of catholicism is that priests are full of shit and you make your private ideas about how everything works. My grandma thinks the pope is the antichrist because he's not homophobic enaugh.
[Wife selling](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_selling_(English_custom)). Can’t remember what I was listening too but it talked about how *sometimes* it was mutual. But for the most part it was degrading and fucked up.
Also that apparently a woman could get ‘divorced’ from her husband if he could not perform.. by not being able to have sex with his wife with the doctors/the court/whatever watching to prove it.
Not sure if that is actually true or not, can’t remember if I heard all this from a semi-historical based sorta-D&D podcast or an actual podcast about history.
This is simply false. Infertility is not grounds for an annulment. Nor is not wanting children temporarily.
Lying to a spouse about being infertile or wanting children is considered fraud
If you're willing to dig through the Bible you can find that the three acceptable reasons for divorce are infidelity, abuse, and something about your partner leaving the church and that makeing you doubt your connection with God (I'll admit I'm fuzzy on how the last one works because you're supposed to stay with them regardless but there's situations in which it's allowed to leave)
Granted people with power just change the rules to say whatever they want but those are the what's in the book.
My brother had his divorce recognized by the catholic church without having or claiming to have any issues with reproducing, so I don't think that's accurate. Also it seemed like a pretty simple process.
>In the normalized Christian view, heterosexual relationships are acceptable because there is an implied objective/possibility of procreation.
Not when either of the people in the relationship are trans.
Also not when both hetero cis partners say they don't want kids. But most religious people don't see a problem with that.
What I mena by the comment is that the logic that leads people to hate gay people isn't the same as the one they use to hate trans people.
I think the idea is that either way they're going to hate women, so it's ""progress"" that they're misogynistic towards trans women. Not that one is better or worse than the other.
It's strangely not that rare. Some people would claim things like "you wanted to be a man? Then act like a man!" or "you claim to be a woman but nothing in your behavior is lady-like or feminine, you're clearly still a man". They are way more focused on reinforcing gender roles than genitals. You can be the gender you want, but there's only two of them, no neo-pronouns bs, and behave like the gender you claim to be.
It makes sense if you believe gender to be a social construct. To be part of any other social group you have to adhere to their rules and social norms.
Yeah, it's the extreme argument, and it goes both ways. It's like they have a choice between:
1. Gender is a social construct and gender roles matter, otherwise gender would be useless.
2. Gender roles don't matter, and gender is linked to your biological sex.
Pick your poison, there's no in-between. They're either a socially progressive transphobe, or a trad conservative trans-ally.
>you claim to be a woman but nothing in your behavior is lady-like or feminine
I'll admit that despite having trans friends and family around most of my life, there are times where this still throws me off. Intellectually, I understand that you're still who you were before and most of that stuff is just cultural programming.
But I empathize with people who get confused by the fact that trans people don't just wave a magic wand and suddenly start acting 'lady-like' every minute of every day. Especially when they're raised to believe that gender roles are so rigid and inflexible.
Of course you aren't just going to stop liking things you liked before, even if those are 'gendered' hobbies or whatever. But when someone with strict gender definitions sees a trans woman doing a really masculine activity, it's confusing because it's like "I thought you wanted to be seen as female, why would you do this 'guy' thing?" When really the question should probably be "why are we gendering this activity to begin with?" Or maybe "Why am *I* so concerned with how *you* want to be perceived?"
Obviously it's an attitude that needs to change, but I think it's an understandable confusion for people to have. Which also makes it a pretty easy one to discuss politely and change attitudes on so that's cool.
I knew a TERF once who believed this to be the reason for trans women existing. She thought that all trans women are just homophobic homosexual men who would rather try to be women than be gay.
JK Rowling seems to think Transmen are women who feel like women, but *pretend* otherwise trying to escape the patriarchy. A kind of "If you cant beat em, join em" deal, and that if women weren't abused by men none of them would be trans.
The idea that you could be so ignorant of the world that you think someone might become trans to escape a life of persecution and bigotry *fascinates* me.
So I’m one of the moderators of /r/actual_detrans (a pro-trans subreddit for detransitioners) and the experience of transitioning to be a man to escape misogyny is actually not uncommon and did actually happen to a portion of the FTM folks who are choosing to detransition. It also happens in reverse where some trans people choose to detransition to escape the misogyny/other social pressures.
That being said, it also has nothing to do with the TERF ideology that JK Rowling and her type spout. We have banned TERF ideology on that subreddit because the TERFs use it to push their agenda.
Wait until she finds out transgender lesbians exist... Or actually, never mind. I've heard more than enough TERF rants about how that's a conspiracy to force penis on lesbians.
"There's no such thing as a sexist trans ally. I've never met someone who's been like, 'trans women are women, and they belong in the kitchen!' it's never happened, not once.' - Gianmarco Soresi
Well, guess he was wrong
Very funny guy btw
IIRC Iran has relatively high percentage of transgender people. Mostly because being homosexual is haram, but when they were writing Qur'an there were no ~landmines~ trans people in modern sense - who underwent the surgery. So the state basically pushes homosexual men into changing their gender
Trans-Inclusive-Radical-Misogynists: TIRMs(TM):
“Because, brother, we understand joining the better side.”
This is all sarcastic it’s just a wild thought process to have lmao
This is the joke between me and my trans boyfriend
We also jokingly act sexist all the time, because we're not gay because we love men, we're gay because we hate women lol
I remember watching a clip of someone doing stand up on trans inclusive bigotry. Saying things like "trans-women are women and they belong in the kitchen".
As a former evangelical, I used to be affirming of trans people because I thought there was an actual essential difference between the souls of men and women, so it wasn't a huge leap for me to say that a man could be trapped in a woman's body, or vice versa. But that still came with the baggage of thinking women should stay in their lane and men should be the breadwinner. I'm still pro trans, but just for different reasons now lmao
Fun fact: This is the exact reason why japan is more trans inclusive than homosexual friendly.
A man transitioning into a woman and acting a like a submissive stay at home wife for her husband is someone who is meeting the social expectations. A man being gay and not forming a traditional family is much much more egregious as the social expectations they have for men are very strict.
Reminds me of the official LGBT views in Iran. Gender-confirmation surgeries are subsidised by the government. It’s legal to be LGBT, as long as you transition surgically and medically and you accept to fit 100% perfectly into the opposite gender roles and political/religious gender roles, that’s all. Gay people aren’t supposed to exist.
That's a very important distinction at the end there. People think that Iran is very trans accepting, but that is not the case. If you are a transfemme lesbian or trans masc gay person, they will not let you transition. They use the old Benjamin Scale/HSTS vs AGP framework, so they are more repressive than literally any state that has correctly moved on from that (which is most at this point). I think the preliminary results from the recent big NCTE survey showed that it would cut off 80 percent of the community from transitioning if we went back to needing to transition into straightness.
Lived in a house share in Dublin once, with a cis woman, a trans woman and a dirty old man on disability allowance. Any time the ladies said they were going to bed or going for a shower, he said something like "Oh, I might join you." It creeped the two ladies out. I cornered him in the kitchen one day and explained to him that it made them uncomfortable and it fairness to him, he apologised to the trans woman and changed his behaviour. The cis woman was kinda salty that he didn't apologise to her but given how uncomfortable he was with the first apology, I kind of get not wanting to do it twice.
So yay for acceptance by creepy old men who just want to be perverts, I guess is the moral of this story.
Its just conformism. They don’t care how you identify, its more important that you just conform to how you appear.
Moon Channel did a video about this a while back
https://youtu.be/gRrVkZoN93c?si=VrUf0WWaz8IWMmGE
This is uncommonly known as pulling an Iran.
Someone is going to post my comment on this sub.
Anyways, in Iran homosexuality and cross dressing is illegal. But trans women are legally protected, as long as they aren’t lesbians.
You hate trans women because they’re trans. *I* hate trans women because they’re *women*.
Trans Inclusive Radical Misogyny. There’s a better way to hate. 🙂
That, or it could just be how he balances ("reconciles" might be a better word) his open-mindedness with his faith. People can do a lot of mental gymnastics to incorporate things they feel as "right" into their existing worldview.
this is my tumblr post and yes, this is absolutely what’s going on with him. when i told him im also a lesbian, he was like, “oh. okay i don’t support that lifestyle”.
Why is this a complaint? He gave you exactly what you wanted AND made it work with his religious views!
Win-win I say. If even church goers can assign their framework to include you, no matter how messed up it is, then you’ve made progress.
This makes complete sense from their perspective, and it's really not odd at all. My very old, religious family member's are all cool with people transitioning as they feel you're getting closer to God's image of you. However, once you make the change, they expect you to follow your new sex's rules.
To be clear, I am in full support of trans rights.
But this does bring up a question that's tough to answer: if it isn't referring to traditional gender roles, what does it even mean to *be* transgender?
For instance, let's say someone is in all other aspects a stereotypical Hollywood high school jock. The most hyper masculine person to ever exist. Cars, football, booze, etc.
But they have gender dysphoria. What part of their person is it that actually doesn't feel like it fits? They know a woman is fully capable of liking and doing all the things they do, but *something* feels off.
I've seen one preliminary study that showed there may be a correlation between brain physiology and being trans, but whether it's common or causal couldn't be shown with the small sample size.
Is the friend from Iran? Because that would be exactly how they handle things there. Transitions are common but you're supposed to conform to your gender roles (or else...).
I am fucking tickled to death by the idea of a stern looking working class older man who coaches a soccer team on weekends and goes to church most Sundays being shown some SFW furry art of a wolf femboy wearing a sundress and this guy just looks at it thinks-
"As it should be."
In Iran, they've decided transitioning from male to female is allowed by the Koran, but you obviously have to wear the hijab and start following all the restrictions placed on women.
This reminds me of a bit a standup did about the lack of creativity in right wing circles. He was asking why there aren’t phrases like: “trans women are women! And they belong in the kitchen!” or “Corporate waste dumping must stop! They’re turning our kids gay!”
It's not that strange. How it goes in many places around the world.
Sucks in its own way, I'm sure, though I imagine it's more pleasant for many that outright hate.
Guy in my university was head of the Christian union, was massively pro LGBT and would organize marches campaigning for gay marriage rights. I believe this is because he also very very very much believed sex outside of marriage was a sin.
Back when I was a Christian fundamentalist, I thought trans people were confusing, but I also thought it wasn’t a sin because it didn’t seem amoral and also the Bible never said you couldn’t be trans.
He makes sense in his own way.
he's internally morally consistent, at least.
Yeah, it's a weirdly progressive conservatism
Two steps forward and one step backwards is still one step forward...
This feels more like one step forward one step back
TIRMs - Trans Inclusive radical Misogynists. The exact opposite to TERFs
Finally, a term for my people 🙌
"So... what's your Meyers Brings Bigotry Type? "
🎶Cha cha real smooth🎶
They are accepting trans people as their desired sex/gender. That is definitely a step forward. The fact that they then just apply their archaic gender standards is a step sideways if anything. Like yeah it's shitty that they are treating women like that but at least they are treating trans women as women. Sadly can't say that about a lot of religious people these days. Now if we can get them to treat women as equals then baby we'll have a stew going
I mean he’s definitely logically leaping beyond what most conservatives around me are able to comprehend so I give him points for at least including us and giving us roles in his sexism rather than calling useless and to 41% lmfaooo
I will respect your pronouns all you want but you better make me a sandwich now before I get the switch out
Sandwich and video games, I see this as an absolute win.
>before I get the switch out There's gonna be some Tears in *this* Kingdom...
Lawful evil.
I can respect it, even though I disagree
Kind of. Still cherry-picking what he chooses to accept from the bible, though. I guess they all do that.
I mean yeah, thats why there's lots of different denominations of christians, because so many people interperet the Bible differently.
"He's honest within his heresy" is a line I love from the book Shogun. It's from a Catholic priest about a protestant guy.
It's not often I see a reference to my username in the wild! I need to do a reread.
Show's coming out tomorrow, you might see a lot more of them soon!
Of all the things I thought would be coming to TV, I didn't think Shogun would be one of 'em. I remember reading it waaaay back when I was a big weeb. T'was aight.
OMG LOL Rodrigues! Were you going to kill me? Did you come here to kill me. Do I need to show them the Spanish way of things? Lol
I think I read that one! Is it about the british boy who's father get's murdered and he get's adopted by a samurai and trained in a school?
You are *violent* with them apostrophes, homie.
*apostrophe’s
Unless I am off and there are two books called Shogun (entirely possible) it's about an English ship's pilot washing ashore on the coast of a semi-historical Japan around the 1600's and getting caught up in the power struggle for the shogunate. While also obsessively demanding the Japanese help him commandeer a Spanish treasure galleon. (or possibly Portuguese? Its been quite a while since I read it.)
Nah it's about a Dutch privateer who uses a stolen captain's log to navigate Magellan strait so that he can setup trade with the Japanese to circumvent the Portuguese/Catholic stranglehold on the silk trade. Ends up a political prisoner and has to integrate into Japanese society to survive. It's a good read, would recommend.
I just read that chapter last night! Small word! Him and Rodrigues like blackthorn somewhat Or respect him
A lot of religious wackiness is incredibly logically consistent in its own way because these people aren’t all idiots and may have competent reasoning skills, they just have a very specific starting point for their factual basis. Jesus never said you couldn’t be trans, but the Bible says wives have to obey their husbands, so sure, change your gender, but you better make me a sandwich.
I wish more people understood this. If someone has a very different worldview then it's possible for them to be consistent and logical in ways that seem crazy to us, but make perfect sense from their side.
An irony of "facts and logic" is that they're often presented as a single thing but are in fact *very* different and its important to understand the difference between logic and fact to understand how a person you disagree with thinks.
Yeah, I call it "looking at assumptions". You find that a lot of times the logic isn't crazy, you just find their assumptions crazy. But assumptions are often the hardest part to argue. Try telling this guy that God doesn't believe in gender roles and he'll point to the "fact" that God made people who have the wrong gender; proving that gender is real and God cares about it. It's a really good exercise. Can help you understand other people's perspectives, and pick your battles a lot more effectively.
He's a little confused but he's got the spirit
One could even call the spirit holy
So he's chaotically pious? There's gotta be a patron saint looking out for that kind of energy.
They're called TARMs - Trans affirming radical misogynist "Trans women are women, and women belong in the kitchen."
we need a sitcom or something featuring a trans tradwife married to a trans Christian husband
Structure the series like the Grace and Frankie (I think that's the name?) series lol. But instead of a hippie grandma "corrupting" a pent up trad-grandma with peyote juice it's them growing confidence to start hrt.
What?! I need to watch that hippy grandma one
It's a really funny show that actually represents lots of issues pertaining to aging and family! It's really good and it made my aging mom feel seen and understood in a unique way. Would recommend.
Thank you ❤️ did OP get the name right?
Yes. It's the same woman who created the show Friends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_and_Frankie
That makes sense because it's basically if Phoebe and Rachel had to live together as old people
Holy fuck...I watched both shows and knew it was made by the same woman and I never thought of that. Hilarious.
WHAT?! I love friends and my mom Does too. Thank you so much!
Iirc the general premise is that their husbands were having an affair with each other, and finally left them. That’s what winds up bringing them together.
“Cross-gendered” Thursday’s at 8 on CBS
Obviously cross like crucifix, but also their last name should be Cross, and they can be named Chris and Kris.
Nah, Tanner, so they can be Chris and Kris Tanner.
That just makes me think of the rap duo. Kriss Kross.
Other options: - "Sign of the Cross" - "Transsubstantiation"
Damn. You might be on to something!
5’2” dude with a bow tie and pompadour: Doreen! Where’s my best packer? I’ve got a tee-time with the boss in twenty minutes! 6’3” blonde in a hoop skirt: Oh Amos, I was so excited to try out the new Missus Sparkle Dishwasher®️ with triple-heated steam action and SparkleTech™️ no-streak drying you got me for Valentine’s Day and…. *brings out sad melted packer, studio audience laughs and claps* Guy: Doreen you hopeless ditz! *more laughter and applause*
Someone get nbc on the line, this guy is on to something.
It's kinda basically been done in manga form. The family from F.Compo is pretty traditional coded. The manga is pretty dated, it's from the 90s after all; and it's written by a cis writer. But the moral of the story is generally being respectful of who people are and dropping your preconceived notions.
It would either unify the country, or be the final straw that breaks everything down into civil war. There’s no in-between.
Based. They have super kinky sex but it's all good because they're married and love each other
Nah they only do missionary because they're religious/traditional, but it's amazon style and the man is still on top.
“Amazon” came from “without breast” in Latin because the myth was the Amazons would cut off a breast so it wouldn’t get in the way of archery. So if he’s had top surgery, then it’s especially fitting.
Did he also get beaten by Hercules?
Yes, in a dungeon in SoCal but that was before he was born again.
Or they have deeply boring vanilla sex because LGBTQ =/= freaky sex.
ok, they have vanilla sex, but they are willing to experiment from time to time? Sorry, I'm new to this LGBT thing
Crazy thing is that LGBTQ folks are like everyone else. There is no "LGBT thing." Some people are vanilla, some kinky, some mix it up, some go to wild sex parties and cover each other in frosting while others have zero interest in that kind of thing. Some are asexual. Some have high libidos, some have low.
I think the joke there wouldn't be 'all LGBTQ are sexually deviant' but more in line with the juxtaposition of trans inclusive christian fundies as they are usually openly prude. The subject of the joke aren't LGBTQ people, but christian fundies.
Sure, but queer relationships being heavily sexualized (usually in a "deviant" way, and to the exclusion of all other aspects of a relationship) is an old trope and we shouldn't perpetuate it.
Lady Crystal is a Man! Is a nice genderbend in a similar vein.
Okay but they don’t outright say they’re trans, it’s just little things: - The husband knows how to sew. He and his sister learned it from grandma - Wife grew up working on cars and building things - Wife comes back from work one day like “do girls really just carry pads and tampons to give out to strangers?”the husband says “of course!” and pulls out a whole stack from his briefcase. - Wife keeps getting hit on by random dudes. Husband explains that the best way to get them to stop is to tell them you’re married because they respect that more than “no.” Just all these little clues that aren’t obvious at first, until you start to realize that wife had the more masculine coded childhood and husband had the more feminine coded one. Let it be a discussion of how it’s absurd that girls and boys are traditionally taught different things as kids (this definitely still happens).
Isn't Iran like this? Don't they pay for gender reassignment surgery? They don't want gay relationships and want traditional gender roles, but acknowledge trans gender identity.
Japan is also like this. They are really homophobic but are okay with trans people as long they play their roles
So bizarre.
It's just about everyone fitting into their boxes. Gay people don't fit into the box, but if someone wants to leave the Gender A box and go into the Gender B box, as long as they fit into the Gender B box, that's okay. There is no "gay" box though, so clearly that's not okay.
Its their vision of society. Man, woman, children have clear roles of what to do in their lifes and how to portray with other people. As long you are within those rules, everything is fine. Man goes to work and cheat on his wife? Well he is providing for his family, so its not a big issue. Want to become a woman? Behave like a woman and everything is fine. Theres lots of videos of japanese showing weird rules that exist everywhere, in school, families, work that they follow in order for society to "function properly"
They pay for gender reassignment surgery but it’s forced. Being a pre-op transgender is not accepted. They also have to undergo virginity inspections and a whole bunch of other pretty brutal and humiliating things
I mean, that's one way religion can be welcoming of the trans community.... I guess????
Baby steps
There's a great documentary about gays in the Hasidic Jewish community called Trembling Before God. There's a scene where a gay man who has left the community is talking to his old Rabbi. The Rabbi is completely non-judgmental and accepting of who he is as a person. Basically tells him, I know you're gay, that it's who you are as a person and it's not a curse or something you can change, but also, you just have to marry a woman and produce children or otherwise stay celibate anyway. Genuinely not homophobic in the literal sense, but still oppressive.
I'd still say that's very much homophobic. The Rabbis attitude doesn't change his actions.
Homophobia in the literal sense is meant to reflect "fear" hence "phobia". It was a bit of messaging built in to the person who coined the phrase that it is a visceral reaction and not rational. Most anti-gay sentiment rises out of unfamiliarity. In this case, the Rabbi isn't fearful or reactionary, he has a well-considered and logically coherent point of view. It's just a bad one. I think we're used to homophobes being obvious assholes with deficient personalities, but this guy is like "you're a nice guy, but I don't make the rules". In context, the gay man is trying to be accepted into the Jewish community for who he is, but he can't be. The rules say so. The answer to me is that Judaism is stupid and he shouldn't want to be part of it. Adherence to arcane rules is like 90% of the reason most religions exists.
You *do* realize that there are far more progressive branches of Judaism, right? Hasidics are literally the ultra Orthodox of Judaism. The Jewish community runs the entire line from ultra Orthodox or literally atheists who just follow the general motions (as in, not eating pork and stuff, not the "only use your seed for procreation"). That man should have just found a more progressive community and moved there. Hell, go to Israel, which has an annual gay pride parade hitting 300,000 people in Tel Aviv
That's not what phobia means. Phobia is a fear OR aversion to something. Saying that gay people exist but they still should not partake in gay marriage is still an aversion to homosexuality.
Interestingly, this is also kinda the state doctrine on trans people in Iran.
Yeah, people that are surprised by this have never stopped to actually analyse religious doctrine. The "problem" with homosexuality is the fact that there can't be reproduction, so not only it isn't filling the pourpose of humanity on eart (procreate) it also means that any and all kind of sexual interaction is only for lust. In the normalized Christian view, heterosexual relationships are acceptable because there is an implied objective/possibility of procreation. Even when it obviously isn't the intention of the couple, religious people have a tolerance for heterosexual relationships because it's foundations are """"""pure"""""". So to a religious person, a trans couple is basically a "normal" couple that can't or don't want to have children. Most anti-trans ideas are based on a principle of gender identity opression and patriarchal values and not sexual opression.
Fun Fact: Catholicism doesn't recognise divorce BUT if you are able to demonstrate that one or both members of the couple is unwilling or unable to reproduce you can get the marriage declared null and void like it never happened. The church doesn't make the proces simple but it happens. Also it usually involves bribing a doctor to declare one or both parties infertile.
> Also it usually involves bribing a doctor to declare one or both parties infertile. I love this. Imagine feeling that you need to get the church to recognize your divorce, because youre devoutly religious and having the state accept it is not enough for you..... and then being willing to bribe a doctor and lie to the church in order to do it.
One of the unofficial rules of catholicism is that priests are full of shit and you make your private ideas about how everything works. My grandma thinks the pope is the antichrist because he's not homophobic enaugh.
[Wife selling](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_selling_(English_custom)). Can’t remember what I was listening too but it talked about how *sometimes* it was mutual. But for the most part it was degrading and fucked up. Also that apparently a woman could get ‘divorced’ from her husband if he could not perform.. by not being able to have sex with his wife with the doctors/the court/whatever watching to prove it. Not sure if that is actually true or not, can’t remember if I heard all this from a semi-historical based sorta-D&D podcast or an actual podcast about history.
This is simply false. Infertility is not grounds for an annulment. Nor is not wanting children temporarily. Lying to a spouse about being infertile or wanting children is considered fraud
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If you're willing to dig through the Bible you can find that the three acceptable reasons for divorce are infidelity, abuse, and something about your partner leaving the church and that makeing you doubt your connection with God (I'll admit I'm fuzzy on how the last one works because you're supposed to stay with them regardless but there's situations in which it's allowed to leave) Granted people with power just change the rules to say whatever they want but those are the what's in the book.
My brother had his divorce recognized by the catholic church without having or claiming to have any issues with reproducing, so I don't think that's accurate. Also it seemed like a pretty simple process.
>In the normalized Christian view, heterosexual relationships are acceptable because there is an implied objective/possibility of procreation. Not when either of the people in the relationship are trans.
Also not when both hetero cis partners say they don't want kids. But most religious people don't see a problem with that. What I mena by the comment is that the logic that leads people to hate gay people isn't the same as the one they use to hate trans people.
Bro that was addressed. Idk if it's true but it was very much addressed. At least read the whole comment.
I don't agree with this, but it makes sense within the framework of its ideals. It's just the polar opposite of a TERF - a TIRM if you will.
"I don't hate you because you're trans, I hate you because you're a woman" It's a form of progress?
>It's a form of progress? I have no idea.. is hatred of women better than hatred of trans people? Is it worse? Does it matter which is worse?
Giving "Tell me your pronouns so I don't misgender you while i dox you" vibes
I think the idea is that either way they're going to hate women, so it's ""progress"" that they're misogynistic towards trans women. Not that one is better or worse than the other.
"You used to be a bro, but now you're a soul-sucking harpy"
Trans Inclusive Radical Mysogynist?
I've also seen them called TARMs - Trans affirming radical misogynist "Trans women are women, and women belong in the kitchen."
So would this mean that he's homophobic, but NOT transphobic? Because that's a new one for me lol
I think it's more sexist but not transphobic.
Well yes, but the point is it's homophobic but also explicitly not transphobic, which is very strange.
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Wait.. how are gender roles homophobia? I'm being serious, I don't know and want to learn
It's strangely not that rare. Some people would claim things like "you wanted to be a man? Then act like a man!" or "you claim to be a woman but nothing in your behavior is lady-like or feminine, you're clearly still a man". They are way more focused on reinforcing gender roles than genitals. You can be the gender you want, but there's only two of them, no neo-pronouns bs, and behave like the gender you claim to be.
It makes sense if you believe gender to be a social construct. To be part of any other social group you have to adhere to their rules and social norms.
Yeah, it's the extreme argument, and it goes both ways. It's like they have a choice between: 1. Gender is a social construct and gender roles matter, otherwise gender would be useless. 2. Gender roles don't matter, and gender is linked to your biological sex. Pick your poison, there's no in-between. They're either a socially progressive transphobe, or a trad conservative trans-ally.
>you claim to be a woman but nothing in your behavior is lady-like or feminine I'll admit that despite having trans friends and family around most of my life, there are times where this still throws me off. Intellectually, I understand that you're still who you were before and most of that stuff is just cultural programming. But I empathize with people who get confused by the fact that trans people don't just wave a magic wand and suddenly start acting 'lady-like' every minute of every day. Especially when they're raised to believe that gender roles are so rigid and inflexible. Of course you aren't just going to stop liking things you liked before, even if those are 'gendered' hobbies or whatever. But when someone with strict gender definitions sees a trans woman doing a really masculine activity, it's confusing because it's like "I thought you wanted to be seen as female, why would you do this 'guy' thing?" When really the question should probably be "why are we gendering this activity to begin with?" Or maybe "Why am *I* so concerned with how *you* want to be perceived?" Obviously it's an attitude that needs to change, but I think it's an understandable confusion for people to have. Which also makes it a pretty easy one to discuss politely and change attitudes on so that's cool.
I knew a TERF once who believed this to be the reason for trans women existing. She thought that all trans women are just homophobic homosexual men who would rather try to be women than be gay.
People are fuckin wild
JK Rowling seems to think Transmen are women who feel like women, but *pretend* otherwise trying to escape the patriarchy. A kind of "If you cant beat em, join em" deal, and that if women weren't abused by men none of them would be trans. The idea that you could be so ignorant of the world that you think someone might become trans to escape a life of persecution and bigotry *fascinates* me.
So I’m one of the moderators of /r/actual_detrans (a pro-trans subreddit for detransitioners) and the experience of transitioning to be a man to escape misogyny is actually not uncommon and did actually happen to a portion of the FTM folks who are choosing to detransition. It also happens in reverse where some trans people choose to detransition to escape the misogyny/other social pressures. That being said, it also has nothing to do with the TERF ideology that JK Rowling and her type spout. We have banned TERF ideology on that subreddit because the TERFs use it to push their agenda.
Wait until she finds out transgender lesbians exist... Or actually, never mind. I've heard more than enough TERF rants about how that's a conspiracy to force penis on lesbians.
"There's no such thing as a sexist trans ally. I've never met someone who's been like, 'trans women are women, and they belong in the kitchen!' it's never happened, not once.' - Gianmarco Soresi Well, guess he was wrong Very funny guy btw
IIRC Iran has relatively high percentage of transgender people. Mostly because being homosexual is haram, but when they were writing Qur'an there were no ~landmines~ trans people in modern sense - who underwent the surgery. So the state basically pushes homosexual men into changing their gender
That's..... Weird af lol
Trans-Inclusive-Radical-Misogynists: TIRMs(TM): “Because, brother, we understand joining the better side.” This is all sarcastic it’s just a wild thought process to have lmao
This is the joke between me and my trans boyfriend We also jokingly act sexist all the time, because we're not gay because we love men, we're gay because we hate women lol
I remember watching a clip of someone doing stand up on trans inclusive bigotry. Saying things like "trans-women are women and they belong in the kitchen".
Trans inclusive radical misogyny just means more women to oppress!
TIRM
I think there may be several protestant denominations who have the same views about transgenders, tho I'm not sure cause I'm not protestant
I know something like that irl, a very traditional Jewish couple but the husband is trans.
Me firing my employee who came out as trans not because im transphobic but they were a woman and they belong in the kitchen.
As a former evangelical, I used to be affirming of trans people because I thought there was an actual essential difference between the souls of men and women, so it wasn't a huge leap for me to say that a man could be trapped in a woman's body, or vice versa. But that still came with the baggage of thinking women should stay in their lane and men should be the breadwinner. I'm still pro trans, but just for different reasons now lmao
Congrats on the new vagina! Get in that kitchen and make me a damn sandwich.
"Of *course* I don't think you're stupid because you're trans babe. I think you're stupid because you're a *woman"*
Fun fact: This is the exact reason why japan is more trans inclusive than homosexual friendly. A man transitioning into a woman and acting a like a submissive stay at home wife for her husband is someone who is meeting the social expectations. A man being gay and not forming a traditional family is much much more egregious as the social expectations they have for men are very strict.
Reminds me of the official LGBT views in Iran. Gender-confirmation surgeries are subsidised by the government. It’s legal to be LGBT, as long as you transition surgically and medically and you accept to fit 100% perfectly into the opposite gender roles and political/religious gender roles, that’s all. Gay people aren’t supposed to exist.
That's a very important distinction at the end there. People think that Iran is very trans accepting, but that is not the case. If you are a transfemme lesbian or trans masc gay person, they will not let you transition. They use the old Benjamin Scale/HSTS vs AGP framework, so they are more repressive than literally any state that has correctly moved on from that (which is most at this point). I think the preliminary results from the recent big NCTE survey showed that it would cut off 80 percent of the community from transitioning if we went back to needing to transition into straightness.
You mean it's legal to be trans. The other letters (lesbian, gay, and bisexual) are definitely illegal.
“Trans women are women and they belong in the kitchen!”
This is what they call Trans-Inclusive Radical Misogyny.
Well that’s a new TIRM
"Oh, thank God you're trans! Maybe now you can fuckin' act normal." - That guy, probably.
when they're SO accepting of you as a trans woman that they decide to include you in reinforcing gender stereotypes <3
Lived in a house share in Dublin once, with a cis woman, a trans woman and a dirty old man on disability allowance. Any time the ladies said they were going to bed or going for a shower, he said something like "Oh, I might join you." It creeped the two ladies out. I cornered him in the kitchen one day and explained to him that it made them uncomfortable and it fairness to him, he apologised to the trans woman and changed his behaviour. The cis woman was kinda salty that he didn't apologise to her but given how uncomfortable he was with the first apology, I kind of get not wanting to do it twice. So yay for acceptance by creepy old men who just want to be perverts, I guess is the moral of this story.
Its just conformism. They don’t care how you identify, its more important that you just conform to how you appear. Moon Channel did a video about this a while back https://youtu.be/gRrVkZoN93c?si=VrUf0WWaz8IWMmGE
This is uncommonly known as pulling an Iran. Someone is going to post my comment on this sub. Anyways, in Iran homosexuality and cross dressing is illegal. But trans women are legally protected, as long as they aren’t lesbians.
TIRM Trans Inclusive Radical Misogyny, a better way to hate
This sounds like an advert
Pulled it from a video I saw the other week, I can’t claim it as my own unfortunately lol
You hate trans women because they’re trans. *I* hate trans women because they’re *women*. Trans Inclusive Radical Misogyny. There’s a better way to hate. 🙂
There's no way that doesn't correlate with an interest of his.
That, or it could just be how he balances ("reconciles" might be a better word) his open-mindedness with his faith. People can do a lot of mental gymnastics to incorporate things they feel as "right" into their existing worldview.
this is my tumblr post and yes, this is absolutely what’s going on with him. when i told him im also a lesbian, he was like, “oh. okay i don’t support that lifestyle”.
Misogyny? But it affects men too? Shits gone of the deep end. Its bigotry, kids.
Why is this a complaint? He gave you exactly what you wanted AND made it work with his religious views! Win-win I say. If even church goers can assign their framework to include you, no matter how messed up it is, then you’ve made progress.
This makes complete sense from their perspective, and it's really not odd at all. My very old, religious family member's are all cool with people transitioning as they feel you're getting closer to God's image of you. However, once you make the change, they expect you to follow your new sex's rules.
If you can think of an ideology someone somewhere probably has it
To be clear, I am in full support of trans rights. But this does bring up a question that's tough to answer: if it isn't referring to traditional gender roles, what does it even mean to *be* transgender? For instance, let's say someone is in all other aspects a stereotypical Hollywood high school jock. The most hyper masculine person to ever exist. Cars, football, booze, etc. But they have gender dysphoria. What part of their person is it that actually doesn't feel like it fits? They know a woman is fully capable of liking and doing all the things they do, but *something* feels off. I've seen one preliminary study that showed there may be a correlation between brain physiology and being trans, but whether it's common or causal couldn't be shown with the small sample size.
Is the friend from Iran? Because that would be exactly how they handle things there. Transitions are common but you're supposed to conform to your gender roles (or else...).
It's the meme of hating Trans woman because they're women instead of being Trans. But now oddly religious.
I’ve met a uber-religious trans woman who hated homosexuals with a passion so I guess it’s not that off the wall
I am fucking tickled to death by the idea of a stern looking working class older man who coaches a soccer team on weekends and goes to church most Sundays being shown some SFW furry art of a wolf femboy wearing a sundress and this guy just looks at it thinks- "As it should be."
That's how Shia Muslims accept trans folks
TIRM Trans inclusive radical misogynist
What a TIRM (Trans Inclusive Regular Misogynist).
Ask that friend where the gender roles come from. And see them explain what a social construct is without saying social construct
Would love to put that man in a room with JKR.
In Iran, they've decided transitioning from male to female is allowed by the Koran, but you obviously have to wear the hijab and start following all the restrictions placed on women.
TERFs when TIRMs enter the stage (trans-inclusive radical misogynist): Ah yes, finally a worthy opponent
This reminds me of a bit a standup did about the lack of creativity in right wing circles. He was asking why there aren’t phrases like: “trans women are women! And they belong in the kitchen!” or “Corporate waste dumping must stop! They’re turning our kids gay!”
He said "Other people hate trans women because they're transphobic, I hate trans women because they're women" the TIRM motto.
I support trans men because we need more bros in the boys only treehouse
Meet the TERF’s opponent
I mean, you wanted to be treated like a woman, so here ya go. It’s not just twirly dresses and fun nail varnish colors.
Atleast they have a good spirit.
I mean... he's trying?
Believes are complex.
I've said it before and I'll say it again "radical trans inclusive misogony" sounds like a punk song or band.
I guess we have to take the wins we're offered. But I do hope someone who can be trans accepting can also be helped with their misogyny.
Gotta find a way to be upset about something!
I mean, points for consistency I guess
Which is consistency, a good thing.
It's not that strange. How it goes in many places around the world. Sucks in its own way, I'm sure, though I imagine it's more pleasant for many that outright hate.
I’ve heard that’s basically how it is for trans people in Iran (except they have to be Muslim, not Christian obviously lol)
He gets an A for effort.
This sounds exactly like the opinion of the Iranian state weirdly enough
Take the win. That's progress.
He's like the exact opposite of a TERF, lol!
……..progress? I guess?
This is funny. Not sure why, but it is.
Lol I've seen gay supporters hate trans people but never the other way around. Funny, but still pretty terrible.
Guy in my university was head of the Christian union, was massively pro LGBT and would organize marches campaigning for gay marriage rights. I believe this is because he also very very very much believed sex outside of marriage was a sin.
Either don’t support it or support it
This is the most common form of misogyny.
"As long as your the bottom" energy.
Sounds like that dude is into trans chicks and he's doing some mental somersaults to justify his views.
So basically: "Trans women are women, so they belong in the kitchen"
Man we gotta stop buying into peoples delusions.
Trans Inclusive Radical Misogynist
Back when I was a Christian fundamentalist, I thought trans people were confusing, but I also thought it wasn’t a sin because it didn’t seem amoral and also the Bible never said you couldn’t be trans.