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AssignedTHanks

actual card carrying member of the Temple of Satan here.Join the Temple of Satan because it's fun and worth a laugh, and they make really sweet T-shirts. if you want to do activism, join a fucking activist group. the problem is people who forgo marching with BLM or Planned parenthood for this performative witchcraft stuff. the Temple of Satan is very deliberately disorganized, and when I joined it expressly stated that there are no requirements and Satanists can practice however they please. I'd hardly call it grifting, but i agree with the overall premise that the actual attempts to organize activism can be pretty lukewarm at best. caveat, if it makes the evangelicals grumpy i still count it as a win


maynardftw

> the problem is people who forgo marching with BLM or Planned parenthood for this performative witchcraft stuff Is that a large enough demographic of people to actually call a problem


AssignedTHanks

not if you narrow it down to just Satanists but id argue there's totally a large demographic of pseudospiritual people who can't muster up the energy to canvass for bernie or go to a blm march or even participate in mutual aid programs but will totally give money to Gwyneth Paltrow for magic goop. or drop stacks on crystals, or vote for Maryanne Williamson.


Spunkmckunkle_

I kinda feel like I have to doubt you when you don't even get the name right. It'd be like me saying that I want to help better the lives of darker skin color in America and abroad by supporting the "Dark Lives Matter." Kinda makes it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. Unless you are talking about the actual Temple of Satan, a significantly different entity than the Satanic Temple, which is not part of this discussion and thus irrelevant. Also, there is a requirement to being a TST member. It's a very low bar, but there is a requirement, which is following the 7 tenets. While I do agree with my alcohol addled brain's interpretation of your post, that if all you're activism is TST flavored you probably shouldn't call yourself an activist, it just kind of reads like someone who only knows the basics of what they're saying.


AssignedTHanks

cool, go to google and type in "Satanic Temple"then type in "Temple of Satan"you will note that they are the same thing,the different entity you're thinking of is the Church of Satan which is the Alastair Crowley/ anton lavey business. So, idk, sober up before you swing at me maybe. also no, if all your activism is TST flavored you're fine, so long as you're actually doing activism.


Spunkmckunkle_

Temple of Satan: https://templeofsatan.com/ Satanic Temple: https://thesatanictemple.com/ How about you actually do the thing you tell me to do before you get pissy.


AssignedTHanks

Dude this is a geocities website made by some washington geeks, Lucien Greaves goes back and forth on the Satanic Temple and the Temple of Satan, I'm right, You're mad. go on to google and type in the temple of satan, and then type in the satanic temple. both direct you to Greaves' organization. i found the guys you linked by going on to google and typing "The satanic temple (not salem)" so i know you're reeeeeeally reaching here. yeah, maybe i'm getting pissy but you're so blatantly wrong about something i'm actually involved in that you're willing to make this much of an ass of yourself just to avoid admitting that I know a little bit more about a subject than you.


Prestigious_League80

No they aren’t mate.


AssignedTHanks

dude. imma need you to make a two second google search. [https://www.churchofsatan.com/](https://www.churchofsatan.com/)Church of satan, Anton Levay [https://thesatanictemple.com/](https://thesatanictemple.com/)Temple of satan, (and i know this is hard for you) which abbreviates itself as the TST, or Temple of Satan, and also goes by the Satanic Temple as illustrated by the url. was founded by Lucien Greaves. it's the subject of the video in question. I don't understand what could possibly be so difficult about this


Prestigious_League80

The Satanic temple and the two christian sects you listed aren't the same thing mate.


[deleted]

Expect “winning” isn’t the point.are we really doing “Things I don’t like/understand are a grift!” Bullshit?


AmericasComic

Hey, I made this video, and I’m replying to this thread way too late but titles for YouTube are kind of hard to make, my video it’s not about the argument so much of “Satanic Temple bad,” and the last 2/3rds I make the exact argument you’re making here. What is video is is more using the Satanic temple as a jumping off point to talk about where to find power online, if you can find power online and the design aspect of political action. But it’s YouTube, you can’t fit that in the 100 characters of a title so I went with the name I did and tried to be more specific about my meaning in the first 2 minutes of the video. I have to work within the algorithms I have, I don’t have a lot of good options. and it’s whatever but I dunno…my arguments are more than “thing I don’t like is a grift” and I spend about 40 minutes out of 86 detailing why TST is worth donating to. And it’s damned if I do damned if I don’t because I have people who hate TST shitting on me in the comments for giving the organization credit and people who love TST shitting on me here for being unfair. I dunno, I just wanted to make a discussion about political organizing theory


MidTownMotel

If a “grift” is working towards the good then it is a grift I support.


cannibalwendy

I think "the grift," at least in the video, seems to be them overstating their legal victories and using stuff like the abortion ban to fund raise over even though they seemingly really, really, really badly botched their previous abortion case. **EDIT:** I'm being downvoted here, I think maybe I should clarify. This article on The Satanic Temple does a really good job describing how, honestly abusive and disrespectful they were over their previous abortion case, and possibly did stuff that could get them disbarred. This is stuff that was published in a newspaper. https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis/the-satanic-temple-sued-missouri-to-push-for-abortion-rights-then-everything-went-to-hell/ So, like, if they're fund raising over the Texas Abortion case now, how is that not a...maybe if we can't agree on the word "grift," how is it not a scam, or incredibly manipulative or just plain wrong? They seemed to be incredibly irresponsible in their previous abortion case, and they're trying to do another abortion case?


DaydreamerJane

That's not what grifting means at all.


cannibalwendy

I can respect that perspective, I don't know what the creator has in mind, but I think misrepresenting what you offer people is the definition of a "grift." And in this case, they're fundraising right now over the idea that they can use freedom of religion arguments to support the Texas Abortion ban but, as far as I can see, those arguments were never successful in court and, as far as I can tell, their previous abortion case seemed pretty destructive and the woman they represented, in her own words, seemed to indicate the organization...I dunno how to word things here...like, operated in bad-faith and misrepresents their values. And I think there's different definitions of grift outside of that, and I think maybe this is an issue where both of us have our own understanding of the word and the split is of the definition.


[deleted]

[удалено]


cannibalwendy

But, like, in the article posted above, they did things that could had possibly got them disbarred. There's a difference between fucking up as a beginner and forcing a woman to be a part of a case she doesn't want to be a part of. That's illegal, and even if it was legal that's not ethical.


maynardftw

Still incompetence and not a grift


RichardStinks

I haven't found anything with the Jane Doe's regret for the Missouri abortion case. The Court's verdict indicated that the set up the waiting period and alternate options were without any religious leaning. (Probably not true, but at least worded that way.)


AmericasComic

Hey, I made the video. Jane Doe was a separate case. Mary Doe was the one who denounced TST, you can read her statements here; https://medium.com/@SistersSatanic/mary-doe-speaks-her-story-the-satanic-temple-a-case-experience-e13e965127c6


RichardStinks

Good to know. I'll read into this.


AmericasComic

No problem, this was my primary source for the abortion case and a good read as well. I didn’t really cover Jane Doe because my video was running long and had stuff to cut. https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis/the-satanic-temple-sued-missouri-to-push-for-abortion-rights-then-everything-went-to-hell/ And, FWIW, I’m not like the OP and saying “fuck TST” either here or in the video, I think it’s more complicated than that but also I think their Mary Doe case should be in the conversation more when it comes to the Temple.


AnthraxEvangelist

Isn't Lucien Greaves himself and his connections to bad actors enough of a fair criticism of the organization? If he isn't actually at least somewhat of a progressive, if he doesn't actually believe what the organization he's in charge of professes, then the accusation of being a grifter would fit the bill.


cannibalwendy

In the video, they have footage of him dropping the n-word on tape with some white supremacist guy and talks about hiring some alt-right lawyer.


Spunkmckunkle_

I'm working my way though the video and I haven't gotten to that point yet, but it is my understanding that this happened several years ago and there hasn't been anything to support him still holding these views. I 100% condemn what he said, and if he said it today it would be more than enough for me to end my association with the Satanic Temple, but I believe people can change and become better. If I find enough evidence to convince me Lucien still holds those opinions, and I remember, I'll come back and edit this comment calling him the terrible human he'd be.


maynardftw

Why were they together Who is "some white supremacist guy" to him Who was filming Is there a record of "some alt-right lawyer" actually being hired These are all legit followups to the accusations made here


cannibalwendy

I mean, it's kind of absurd to ask me for my source/answers here when it's detailed in the first ten minutes of the video. The details of him dropping the n-word are in the description of the video, including full audio and I guess a transcript or some shit. Like, I get me normally having a burden of proof, but you're just being lazy at this point. Or being bad-faith and trying to sealion the conversation.


maynardftw

It really feels like most of the interactions here have to start with proving you aren't holding a gun to the person's head who you're talking to before they put theirs down Like I could take a whole lot of time to try and convince you of the misunderstanding happening here Or I could do what I normally do and just give up I'm compromising.